What The Ale?
Keg #7: The Borden Murders and Spirits
ghosts, cryptids, murder, conspiracies, beer, what, the ale. Hello, friend. Hello. Welcome back to What The Ale. I'm Elana Ray. And I'm Ama J. And this week we are bringing you our keg for the month of April. Whoo, whoo. First time we've done it. Well, not first time we've done it. It's been a while friends. It's been a while, and that's on there. But I'm excited to get back into the swing of everything. But before you get into our topic, Momma, what are you drinking? I decided to have a great notion most out. And I know you see the picture, but it's got a deer in an apron behind a bar, and then it's got like the little great notion dudes heads all along the bottom. Oh, that's funny. So yeah, I guess he's like taking over the bar. Good for him. But it's delicious. Yeah, I was going to say I feel like they always have such fun cans. Yeah, I like the great notion can. I'm very nice. This one's yummy. I like a milkshake. What about you? I'm having a Whirlpool IPA from the Night Shift Brewing Company here in Boston. They're pretty cool, pretty popular. And the cans cool. It has like a little owl and like a little whirlpool. So yeah, very cool. Yeah, well, any what the old moments this week, Momma? I'm probably just that I'm tired, dude. Like, I don't know. I feel like I've been working a lot and running the kids a lot. And yeah, I'm just tired. So but I have a girls weekend this weekend in Tahoe for my friend's bachelorette. So I'm really looking forward to that, although I know I'm back from that exhausted too. Yeah, but it's still fun. It's like self. Yeah, it'll be it'll be great. But yeah, I just feel tired this week. I don't know what's up with me, but yeah, that's it. I feel it. I've been feeling really tired this week too. So I don't know if it's just like energetically, we're all tired. But yeah, I feel it. I've been been a little sluggish this week. Yeah, but let's see. Okay, what the old moment for me? I have a kind of fun one. I'm super excited because tomorrow, me and a friend from grad school are going to like work from home together from a coffee shop. And we're going to have like a little work from home date because neither of us have meetings and can. So I'm excited. Yeah, that's nice. Yeah. Um, well, do you want to get into our topic for the week month? Sure. All righty friends, so I had been wanting to cover this one for a while. And I realized that there's not only a true crime element, but also a paranormal element. And it just made sense to kind of collab on this one for the keg. So we decided to cover the murders in the Lizzie Borden house, as well as the ghosties. Yes, ma'am. So I'm going to get into the true crime element. Mom will do the paranormal element. And then we will talk theories and all the fun things. So I'm excited. All right, let's get into it. All righty. So I want to say that this, this murder, you know, technically unsolved is probably one of the most famous to ever come from Massachusetts. So I'm going to bring y'all down south to fall River, Massachusetts, um, where Lizzie Borden was born on July 19th of 1860. She was born to Andrew and Sarah Borden. Um, and unfortunately, after soon after Lizzie was born, her mother passed away. And so already kind of sad, but Andrew, a few years later, remarried Abby DeFree Gray. We're just going to call her Abby, Abby and Andrew. Very cute. Love the alliteration. But they got married and Andrew was known in Fall River as a really successful businessman. He like supported his wife really well. He was kind of frugal, you know, and so he was able to save and like build this beautiful house and he was able to hire servants and take care of his daughters. Like he was just really affluent. Um, and so Emma and Lizzie Borden lived with Andrew and Abby until they were adults and they actually lived together until the murders. Um, and we don't really know what exactly happened, but about five years before the tragedy happened, they had a falling out with Abby. Um, and I think what it had to do with was that Andrew brought their half-sister. So like him and Abby had a kid and Andrew bought that, that sister a house, but did not buy them a house. Well, I thought it, I thought it was Abby's half-sister that he bought a house. Oh, it might have been Abby's half-sister. Yeah. So I think they were saying like, you know, this person's not even related to you and you're buying her a house and you haven't even bought us a house because they were grown women. Yeah, like grown women who were like spinsters in the 1800s that like don't have houses. Yeah. But I think they never, they never really liked her anyways, right? Like they never really welcomed her or? Yeah, I mean, I think they were conflicting arguments. Like I think they were just kind of like, okay, she exists, but like you're not our mom, but um, at this point they just started calling her Mrs. Borden. Like they just like, didn't really acknowledge her as a part of, you know, their family. And I think part of that was too. They believed that, you know, she might have been after Andrew's money because the sisters helped manage the estate. And like I said, Andrew was very frugal. So for him to just like buy someone a house was like, kind of out of character. And so I think that's, you know, could be part of it. But at the time as well, Lizzie was like really involved in their church. It was called the Congregationalist church. And so I think, you know, again, she like, as a human was like doing pretty well for a woman in the 1800s. Like, I mean, you know, back then you were like a witch if you, you know, had a job. So good for her. But at the time of the murders, I want to just kind of list the people who lived at the house and the people who were kind of around the property so we can get names out. So like I said, we have Andrew and Abby. We have the sisters, Emma and Lizzie Borden. We have John Morse, who is an uncle of the Borden's. They were, he was Sarah Borden. So their mother's brother. And then we have Bridget Sullivan, also known as Maggie, who was the maid who lived in the house with the family. And the one thing we know for sure is Emma was most likely not involved because she was out of town at the time of the murders. Yeah. But on August 4 of 1892, Andrew and Abby were found murdered in their home. And the timeline gets a little complicated. So I'm going to try to go as chronological as possible. And kind of get through kind of what at least it says in the police report and then we could kind of discuss. But what happened was was at 10 40 a.m., Andrew decided to take a nap on the couch. And Abby was not home. I don't know where she was, but she was not home. Around 10 50, Lizzie claimed that she was in the backyard barn. And she was like, you know, doing some chores and things because they did live on like a little property with some animals. At 10 55, Maggie reported that she was taking an nap in her room. And then 20 minutes later, at 11 15, Lizzie was still in the barn, but she heard a heavy fall and subdued groaning. So she went into the house and noticed that the screen door was open. And she goes inside. Maggie claimed she was not asleep at the time, but she heard Lizzie yell, "Come down quick. Father's dead. Someone came in and killed him." Okay. And Maggie did say that Lizzie was wearing a blue, unstained dress. So if she had. Not covered in blood, we're going to get into that later. And Andrew, at least based on the scene, he was believed to have still been asleep when he was attacked because there were no signs of struggle. He was like laying down on the couch. But unfortunately, he took 11 hits from an axe to his head and did not survive. So at this time, Lizzie tells Maggie to go get the doctor who lives across the street. And so Maggie goes and returns with the neighbor. And Lizzie says, "Oh Maggie, I am almost sure I heard her come in. Go upstairs and see if she is there." And she's talking about Abby Fortin, so her stepmother. And they found Abby on the floor of the guest bedroom, face down. So there is maybe an assumption she could have been present for Andrew's murder because she was just kind of in the middle of the floor, face down. Maybe she was running away and the person like attacked is kind of their thinking. And she was struck 18 times. So again, very gruesome, very brutal. And of course, immediately the police came and suspected Lizzie. They were like this girl's catchy. She was not arrested at the time. And they found a handleless hatchet in the basement, but it was completely wiped clean. But also this is the 1890s. There's no DNA. There's not like blood typing even. There's not a lot of science to tell if the hatchet had been cleaned. At that time, everybody catches. Yeah. Chop wood for the fire. Yeah. Especially if you had a proper hatchet. Yeah. Having a hatchet wouldn't be unusual. But yeah, it's odd that the handle isn't there. Yeah. And so she, you know, the police couldn't arrest her. They really had no evidence. So there was like kind of a week that goes by. And in the week, supposedly, Lizzie burned a dress that she claimed that was stained with paint. And it's a little suspicious, you know, especially because if she was wearing an unstained dress when the police came. And so she was eventually indicted. And on December 2nd of 1892, because of all of the, like, I don't know, I wouldn't say publicity necessarily, but there was a lot of like murmurs about the case in Fall River. And it's a smaller town. So they moved it to New Bedford, Massachusetts. And I just want to like talk about a little bit of like kind of the evidence they had or like what they were trying to, you know, convince the jury of. So like I said, the dress was supposedly burned that was stained with paint. And they were like, well, in our opinion, it was stained with blood, but there was no evidence of this dress. They can't agree that I am, but it does seem suspicious. But it seems suspicious. And, you know, if we're thinking about the timeline, like when she would have murdered her parents, I mean, there's maybe, like I said, a 20 minute window between her going outside and her discovering Andrew in the house. And so I'm not saying it's impossible, but it would have been really hard to get out of one of those Victorian dresses with the high collars and the pearl buttons and all of that without help in 20 minutes. Well, you know, you would think if both, both parents were in the mom stepmom and dad were in the house, you would think that if like if they killed the dad first, you would think the mom stepmom would have screamed or done something that Lizzie would have heard from outside or would have woken the housekeeper person. What was her name? Maggie. Maggie, you know, or if she went first, you would think that that would have woken him up on the couch. And either way, you would think both of the girls would have heard something. So yeah, it all just feels a little like suspect if none of them heard anything. Yeah, and we're gonna get into some of, you know, the theories about that because I love a good theory. But that was the main one with the dress. And like I said, I do agree that it would have been tight. But again, Maggie could have helped her change because Maggie was supposedly taking an app but not asleep. Yeah. And something else that they did mention the prosecution was that the day before the murder, she did try to buy presic acid poison. I don't necessarily know what presic acid is. But if she was trying to grab by poison the day before, you know, it could have been a thing she was saying that they wanted to kill the there was a mouse in the house or something that she wanted to kill. But again, you never know. At that time, it was pretty easy to go and like go to an apothecary and get some arsenic or something. Yeah. You never know. During the trial, Lizzie did not take the stand at all. And her inquest testimony, which she had given early on in her arrest was not included in the evidence. So there's really no record of it. Like we don't have access to it because it wasn't included in evidence just because of the time. But Andrew, you know, they were trying to look for a motive. And I guess, like I said, Andrew was a very successful businessman. He would have been worth $10 million in today's money. And he lived very frugally. So a lot of people, you know, believe maybe she killed her father to get the money, especially after the house was bought for the half sister of, you know, the stepmother and everything. Yeah. And apparently, Lizzie like had a really like creepy smile and court when they mentioned they're like very like, like, they're very basic, like mutton based a diet. Like she kind of had a smirk, like, oh, well, I'll never have mutton again. And you know, and so they said like her behavior wasn't the most, you know, good or like the most like traditional of like how murdered, you know, a daughter to be grieving, you know, but she also didn't seem remorseful if she had done it. Yeah, she seemed like glad they're dead. Yeah, like she didn't. Yeah, like you said, she didn't seem remorseful. But the hard part was was that they really couldn't find any evidence that wasn't circumstantial, like any concrete evidence that proved that she had committed the murder. So on June 20th of 1893, I was gonna say 1983. That's a wrong year. But of 1893, she was acquitted and no one else has ever been charged for the crimes. So I want to get into just a couple of the theories like we obviously mentioned Lizzie is the big one, but there's another theory that I thought was interesting, which is the uncle John Morse could be a suspect. So as I mentioned earlier, he was Lizzie's uncle on her mother's side. And he had not been seen from 9 a.m. to 12 p.m. and his alibi was that he was seeing a sick relative in town with with the town doctor there. Now, the interesting thing was that if he was at this house across town with the town doctor, but that same doctor was investigating the murder scene at the boarding house, something something fishier. And that's what a lot of people are like, like, what were you doing? Yeah. So his alibi, it can't be confirmed. No, can't be confirmed. Some people think like maybe he was like having an affair with somebody and he was like trying to keep that under wraps. We don't know against small town. It's hard to know. And something else about John Morse is that he knew about the will. So he knew that, you know, if Andrew Borden died, the girls would be left the money. And he apparently like was having like he had gone into business with Andrew and he was having a failing livestock business. And so a lot of people think maybe he was like, Oh, I'll kill Andrew and get some of the money. And then I'll like fix my business or I'll just like ride off into the sunset. But again, it's all very speculative. One last thing is that he was a butcher by trade. And so a meat cleaver could have feasibly been the weapon that was used to murder both Andrea and Abby. And we never really got a concrete idea of what the murder weapon was. So it easily could have been a meat cleaver. But that's really all we got for John. Like I said, pretty circumstantial. I do think the alibi not being totally confirmed is interesting, but in the 1800s before traffic camps and things, it's kind of hard to tell. Yeah. So I don't know. One is a theory that Maggie and Lizzie were in a relationship. And I was just about to get their mail. I wasn't done. Sorry. Go a lot. So as my mother shared, no, I'm just kidding. I'm not salty. As my mom was getting at, there is a very kind of fun gay theory about Miss Lizzie Borden. And that Maggie was her accomplice. And a lot of people think, you know, they work together because it was too coincidental that someone could sneak in and get out without being seen by either Maggie or Lizzie. It was also really tough to kind of, you know, expect that like if someone had been murdered and like Andrew was asleep, he would have heard it or vice versa. You know, if Abby had come in or, you know, heard Andrea being murdered, you would think she would have made a stink. So a lot of people, like they work together. Some speculate that maybe Abby or Andrew discovered their romantic relationship. And so they had the silence them in order to, you know, keep the affair from getting out, which, you know, we love a lesbian, don't be a murderer, but we love a lesbian in this family. Yeah, definitely don't be a murderer. They're other ways. Yeah, exactly. Especially nowadays. But yeah. And, you know, I definitely think that this, at least them working together, even if they weren't in a relationship, adds to the idea that like she could have changed dresses pretty easily and that dress that was stained with paint could have totally been, you know, the dress she wore to commit the murder. But it's hard. Again, we just don't have that concrete evidence. But I did want to say, after the acquittal, there is a little bit of story left. So am I not, uh, not Abby, am I in Lizzie? Inherited a substantial portion of the estate and they lived together for 10 years after the child sisters did. Lizzie really couldn't escape, you know, people believing that she had killed her parents and her reputation was really tarnished when in 1897, a few years later, she was accused of shoplifting. So, um, I don't know why you got to shoplifting back then would have been a big deal. Nowadays, we don't even prosecute shoplifters. So, I know, I know, but it is interesting. And then, you know, we do think, you know, we know Emma and Lizzie had her falling out. We don't know what it was over exactly. But in 1905, Emma moved out of the house and never spoke to Lizzie again. And some believe that she couldn't have learned new information about the murders. And another theory is that Lizzie was having a relationship with a woman named Nancy O'Neal. So again, we know she's gay now. Yes, we're pretty sure. I, you know, this relationship with her and Nancy was apparently close and her and Emma had a falling out. We're not sure, you know, which of the two theories it is. Okay. But Nancy and Lizzie did have a relationship and lived together for a while. So, there's definitely speculation that they were like a couple. Okay. But in June of 1927, Lizzie passed away in Fall River. And Emma died days later in Newmarket, New Hampshire. So, you know, the secret kind of died with them like 20, 25 years later. So, we just don't really know. But that is the murders. If you are ready to get in the ghosties. Well, there's a couple other things when I was doing my research that I saw. And one of them was that apparently Emma was like agoraphobic and like didn't leave the house very often. And so, the idea of her going away for a couple of weeks seemed very out of character for her. And so, some people were saying that that seems suspicious that she would go away and maybe she knew something was happening, but didn't want to be there. And then there was another thing that I heard that, or I read that said that, you know, back then it was improper for the police to search a woman's room. And so, they didn't search Lizzie Borden's room at first because it would be improper. So, that would mean she could easily have hidden murder weapon and dress until she was ready to burn it, you know. Yeah. I didn't, I missed that. But that's the truth. Those kind of things were, oh, it's improper to go in a woman's room. And I think there was even something else about, like, because there was like some blood, but she said it was period blood. And of course, all the men were like, oh, we're not going to touch that. You know, we're not going to talk about that because that's private business. And so, yeah, so the police kind of, you know, trying to be proper kind of, probably missed a lot of things that might have solved the case. Yeah. I mean, I didn't, I didn't know about that. I feel like, yeah, I mean, it would have been more, I don't know. I don't know if it's like more or less damning if she had said like the dress was stained with period blood, because to me that makes more sense than stained with paint, because like where in any of the literature does it say that Lizzie Borden painted? Yeah, no, I agree. I definitely think they kind of were like, a woman could never commit such a gruesome murder and then kind of like backtracked a bit and we're like, oh wait, she's a little sketch. All right. Well, before we talk about ghosts, I got to give you some other Fall River history, because some of the ghosts have to do with these, these things that happen in Fall River. So in the house next door to where Andrew Borden, you know, moved into that the house where he was murdered, the house next door was owned by a Ludwig Borden, who, you know, was related to them. And he was married at the age of 22 or in 19 or 1833 to a 22 year old named Maria Briggs. And by 19 or 18, I'm sorry to keep saying 19, my 1836, there are two infant children died and two years later, the mom also died. And so at 26, he was a widower. And then he remarried a woman named Eliza. And that's when they moved to the property in Fall River. And so, you know, after losing his two children and his wife, he was really hoping for a new start. And they quick, you know, he and Eliza quickly had three children, a daughter named Maria, a second daughter named Eliza and a son named Holder. And Eliza was dealing with postpartum depression, which nobody really knew what that was, definitely was not being treated for that. And so she committed an unthinkable act, which was she took her two of the children. So she, Maria was spared, but she took Eliza and Holder into the cellar. And she threw the children into the cellar's cistern, which is like a well, where they both drowned. Oh, wow. Yeah. And there are different stories about whether she held them underwater and drowned them, or, you know, that she just left them there and they drowned after being exhausted from being in the water for so long. But we do know that the next thing she did, whichever way that went with the next thing she did was she committed suicide. She slit her own throat with one of straight razors. And she was only 37 at the time. And some people say that it was in the, in the cellar, you know, like right after she killed the children, she went like behind the chimney and did that. And some people say she went upstairs. So I don't know which story is true. But anyways, so then, you know, he ended up, you know, Maria survived and he ended up marrying another woman named Eliza Chase. And that third marriage didn't last very long, you know, because she died at the age of 51. And so at that point, he had buried three wives and four of his children. And this was all before he turned 53 years old. Wow. So I'm going to come back to the ghost, you know, but I will just say that so the house next door was owned by Charles trapped in his wife, Hannah, and, and Charles, unfortunately, lost his wife and his son to unknown causes inside of that house. And, and then he had a second wife that moved into that house and they lived there until Ludwig's nephew Andrew and his family moved in. So that's when the boardings moved in. Okay. So I'm going to skip ahead to the 70s and tell you about one other thing, because apparently a lot of people believe that the town of Fall River is cursed. And that's because, you know, it was about 90 years after Lizzie Borden or whoever took an axe to her family. But there was another killing spree that happened in Fall River. And it began in 1979. And there was a body of a woman named Doreen Leveske. And she was a homeless 17 year old. And, you know, people said that she was doing sex work at the time. And she was tied with fishing wire. And her head and face were crushed with a rock she was found under the high school bleachers. And it was said that she also had a baseball bat shoved inside of her. Oh, okay. And there were a couple of other murders at that time. So there was two other homicides between 79 and 80. And so the other one was Barbara Raposa. And that was in November, but her body wasn't found until like January. And then the third one was Karen Marsden. And they only found portions of her school in 1980, but her body was never recovered. Now there were these two people named Carl Drew and Robin Murphy. And they were ended up being connected to the murder of Marsden. But nobody else was convicted for Doreen Leveske. But the two of them were kind of working together as like pimps. And they were trying to like run the street. So they would try to intimidate and scare away other people who were trying to work, you know, in that trade. And they only wanted their girls to get, you know, the money and attention. So they would like intimidate people. And part of the way they would intimidate was by saying satanic things and saying that they were a part of a cult and that women's souls were going to be offered to the devil as human sacrifice. And Carl Drew, you know, he said that he was the cult leader. Oh, wow. Okay. So, you know, so anyway, so he was a dark guy, not treating women well. And he was convicted of the crime, you know, killing the one girl. But, you know, there was another article that I saw that said if you had read the court transcript, you would see that he was not guilty at all. And it didn't say what was in the court transcript that made it so clear it wasn't him. But anyway, so just want to say that because his name will come up in the ghost stories. So that's some of the history. Now, I'll tell you a little bit about the house. So, you know, it's been a bed and breakfast since 1996. And it was owned by Martha and Megan and Ronald Evans. And they had inherited the house from her grandparents. And it was like converted into a museum at that time. So the BnB and the museum. And shortly after they opened it as a BnB, people started reporting spooky things happening, like lights flickering on and off and door doors opening and closing by themselves, sounds of giggling children, and then visions of like floating figures through the rooms. And according to Martha, the owner, she said that the room where Lizzie's stepmother died is the most requested room. So people really wanted to stay in that room. Donald Woods and Leanne Wilbur's ended up buying the house and it kept it open as a BnB. And they started doing 90 minute tours, like ghost tours. And they started doing that in 2004. And at that time, they would only talk about facts about the case. And they would not tell it was not, you know, they weren't doing a lot of ghost stuff, but they did have a Ouija board that was available for use. And I'm going to tell you a story about the Ouija board in a minute. But it was a very old Ouija board. So they decided to play up the murders to increase interest. So they put out murder paraphernalia. They had a mannequin in the guest room where Abby Borden was killed. They had autopsy photographs. They had a photograph of Andrew on the couch when he was found. And then there was like a movie, The Legend of Lizzie Borden. So they had photographs of the actress that played in that movie. And so they really tried to play up that to gain, you know, more like notoriety so people would come. Wow. Okay. And then the house sold again. And this time it sold to Lance Zahl. Do you know who that is? No, I don't. Okay. Well, he happens to be the owner of a little TV show called Ghost Adventures. No way. Yeah. So he ended up buying the property. And that's when he started ghost tours. So not just a tour of the property, but ghost tours. So there was a 90 minute tour or a two hour option. And he also kept historical tours going. And then he implemented things like a podcast, virtual experiences, themed dinners, bedtime ghost tours, and murder mystery nights. And they added a six bedroom to the property. And he also will host a wedding there. So he's like making lots of money off of this, I'm sure. Wow. Yeah. Some of the ghosty things. So Zahl, the owner, he said that one time he and a friend were staying in the Abbey and Andrew suite so that each had their own bedroom. And his partner or friend or whoever, the employee thought that he was like walking through his room in a white nightgown and trying to like scare him and turning the door knob. And you know, of course all his quote was, well, that wasn't me. I don't own a white nightgown. So but the employee saw this person walking in a white nightgown. The Ouija board that I mentioned before, it was over 100 years old and it was stolen at some point. And shortly after it was stolen, the board somehow made its way back with a note that said, please make it stop. And then there are many, many stories of, you know, people hear the children laughing, they hear the children playing. So we're assuming those are the children that were murdered in the house next door, you know, that were part of the Borden family. And I mean, the intelligent responses on spirit boxes are insane. So like, I watched some investigations where they were talking to the children and the children asked, are you my friend? And they said, yes, we're friends. And they said, Oh, well, will you play with us? You know, and then the lights on the toys would go off. There's definitely temperature changes that are caught on REM pods. A local said that the fire alarm goes off at 3am every few months with no explanation. People see shadowy figures, people hear footsteps. And then there is some investigations that have said that Eliza, even though she died in the house next door, that she sometimes shows up in a corner of the cellar in this house in the basement. And and they've asked her, you know, what she's doing there, does she need help? And she said things like, I'm trapped, please help me, I can't leave. You know, so those all seem like pretty intelligent responses. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And then Andrew, I know you mentioned that he's a little bit, he was a little bit of a penny puncher. But apparently, he will kind of poke you or push you or make you uncomfortable. But if you leave money on his dresser, he'll leave you alone. Oh, I feel like I've heard about this. Yeah. So people are like, Oh, I better leave some money. So he doesn't like mess with me. And then obviously, one of the shadow figures that is seen as a woman. And so we assume that that's Abby walking about the house because it seems like Eliza mostly stays in the basement. And like I said, even though she wasn't killed there, you know, her spirit just seems to have come to the property. And then, you know, I mentioned Carl, who was the person who, you know, supposedly killed those women and he was self proclaimed satanic cult leader. Apparently, he comes around every now and then and he'll poke people and push people and make people feel uncomfortable. So it seems like most people see him as like more menacing than the others. And, you know, in terms of other intelligent responses, I watch several of the different investigations. And like one of them, I asked what happened here and he said my face. And another one, I heard that he said my suffering. You know, so again, like they're asking what happened here when they're standing in the room where he was murdered and asked the response they're getting. Mm hmm. Yes. I mean, it sounds intelligent to me. Yeah, I mean, it's responsible for intelligent. Yeah, every investigation that I watched, the responses were so clear. Like, you know, it was crazy how clear they were and how directly they were answering questions. And you know, whether it was the kids or as Andrew, like they're just seemed, it seemed very clear. And yeah, so temperature changes. And then, um, I know that, you know, there are some people like there's a woman named Shelley who for a long time, she was a tour guide and employee and she says, you know, she stayed in every room and every floor. And she's never seen anything. And she said that she's heard odd noises, but you can explain 99% of them. And that when they put in the air conditioning, the house is honeycomb. So it's full up holes. So the sound travels kind of strangely through the house. So she kind of like says that, you know, she never had any real experiences. Mm hmm. But she also said that people have checked out, terrified. Mm hmm. And she's had a walk to the bathroom and she reminds them the dead can't hurt you is the living outside the windows that you need to be worried about. Mm hmm. So she's one of the ones that, you know, doesn't think it's a real thing. But I'm telling you, so many people really do. And, you know, after watching the investigations, I mean, it just seemed like there was so much that was just intelligent responses. Um, that I don't know, I think it would be interesting together. Yeah. I mean, I'd be down. I definitely like when I lived in Boston before, like, I really wanted to go like, not just to a Lizzie Bordenhouse because it's in the Bridgewater Triangle. So I wanted to do lots of like, paranormal hunting and things, which I will cover the Bridgewater Triangle at some point because I think it's absolutely fascinating. And I want to see a paklaji. That's really my main purpose. I want to go on a walk and find a paklaji. So, oh, yeah, we should definitely do that. We should do a week and get away where I come visit. But, um, oh, and then some people say they do see Lizzie. Um, but only some of the time because apparently Lizzie also haunts her maple craft house, which was the house she moved into on Front Street after the trial. Yeah. So people see her there too. Yeah. I mean, that makes sense. Can you tour that house or like, is it not? That maple craft house? Yeah. You know, I didn't look about that. I'm not sure. But I assume so if there's multiple people saying they've seen her there, I mean, there must be something a tour or something. Um, and then, um, I was going to share that there was a, um, article that looked at 75 hotels, um, worldwide. And based on like, haunted things. So like they were looking on TripAdvisor for words like haunted or creepier ghost or whatever. And the Lizzie Borden house earned 9.73 out of 10 on the spooky scale. Oh wow. And so she, you know, this house ended up earning this second, um, spot worldwide. But it missed spot number one. And number one is a place that we have already covered. Can you have any guesses about what we've already covered that would have taken number one? I would say the Whaley house probably. That's what I would have guessed too. But nope. Let me try again. It was part of a Winchester. No, it was part of a flight. A flight. Was it one of the hotels was a like clown hotel or something? Yeah, it was the Miss Pah. Yeah, it was the Miss Pah Hotel in Nevada. And, um, yeah, it's not the clown hotel. They don't deserve any praise. That place is terrifying. Yeah. Yeah. And then, um, yeah, I think when you are more aggressive, kind of, um, investigator, like somebody who yells at the ghost or like whatever. There's kind of people, not naming names, but those kind of people have reported that they've been punched in the back by the ghost of Andrew Borden. Wow. You know, in my mind, Andrew seems like from the other investigations I've heard. I mean, people, people have gotten on spirit boxes, like you shouldn't be here or that kind of thing. But it didn't sound aggressive. But I think the more aggressive you are, maybe that brings that out of him. Because this is his house and you're jumping around with your cameras and everything. So I think he just gets a little cranky. Um, and also like the man was like murdered while he was taking a nap. I know with an axe. I mean, gosh, that sucks. He's allowed to be a little spicy sometimes. Yeah. So I don't know. But yeah, it's all the, all the, you know, basic haunted ghosty things. So Carl is a little more menacing. Andrew kind of doesn't want people there, but we'll leave you alone if you pay them. And he won't want you in the back if you pay him. Yeah. Liza is very bad. Yeah. So there's, and the kids just want to play. So there's just lots of different energy in the house. Some of it's really menacing or sad. Some of it's playful. But yeah, those are the main ghosts that people have come across in the house. Cool. I don't know if you mentioned this. And if he totally didn't stop me, but I remember what that Andrew and the coins thing. There was one thing I watched where like, if he like took coins, he would like scratch you or he would like slap you. Like, yeah, like if, if he had money out on the dress or somebody else left the money and you took it, you'd be in trouble with him. Yeah. Well, and then I was going to say to the children, I mean, people kind of assume it was the children who, um, you know, who were murdered by their mother next door. Um, you know, but there was also this, the child that died, um, of tuberculosis who lived in the house before they bought it. So that child could be one of the children too. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think anytime there's a ghost kid, there's a lot of, especially at that time, there's, I feel like there's always a few options for ghost kids. Yeah. And with the tours, you know, they do give you like tools to go ghost hunting. So they'll give you like run pods and spirit boxes and those kind of things to go ghost hunting. So that's kind of cool. Um, and yeah, you can, you can book any of the different rooms I was looking at it. And so, you know, you might be in that, in the BNB with multiple other people who are there to ghost hunt too. So that's kind of fun. Probably everybody will be wandering the house at three AM looking for ghosty things. I mean, that's how it was when we went to the Stanley, like the amount of people that were just wandering around late at night, like with a little spirit box or something. I mean, it was everyone. Yeah. I definitely think that might be a thing I like buy for myself soon as a spirit box, because Boston is haunted to sell y'all. I just want to like go ghost hunting everywhere. I know I was just saying out of your bag, you've got lots of ghosts to check out. I know I, yeah, I want to like just like go on the Boston Common and try to see like a ghost soldier. I think that would be so fun. Um, but we'll see one of these days. Yeah, but I really like if people haven't seen it and they're interested, I mean, there were so many, um, ghost investigations that were so clear, like way clearer than some of the ones we've seen where the, the answers are clearly answering the questions that are being asked. Like there's no arguing that it was, you know, you're not having to interpret. They're clearly directly answering questions. Um, and, and that was in every single one that I watched, you know, it was, I, and I watched multiple, but all of them, the answers were very intelligent, very clear. So yeah, if you're interested in that kind of stuff, which you probably are if you're listening to this. So, um, yeah, it goes out because there's a lot of them on YouTube that you can look at and they're really interesting. Oh, totally. Yeah. I mean, I, I feel like I've seen several on the Lizzie board now. So I'd recommend it. And it looks like a very lovely BNB, like if you're a skeptic and you just want to like go have a nice weekend in southern Massachusetts by the water, go do that, you know? Yeah. It looks like a lovely little place. Yeah. Well, anyway, my friends, I guess we can start wrapping up unless there's anything else, mom. I think that was it. But yeah, it was like, really, this is fascinating to do all the reading and watching all the things because there's a lot of stuff. Yeah, no, it was, like I said, I was going to do it on my own. And then I was looking, I was like, there's a lot of like, we could do a keg on this. That'd be fine. So, I'm glad we did. Yeah. But friends, like I said, we're going to do some quick housekeeping. So, keep liking and subscribing our episodes. You could follow us on Instagram about what the L pod we do want to do in your listeners episode soon. Um, so if you have any ideas, please email us at what the L pod at gmail.com will get to it. Hopefully we can, you know, cover your story. If you're comfortable, if not, just tell us anyway, like you could tell us like, hey, I don't want anyone to read this. And like, we'll just look at it and enjoy it. So, either way. Well, and then again, for my friends that are in Japan, I'm going to be visiting. So, you know, if you have any stories, I'm hoping to do some, um, stories that are specifically from Japan or China, because that's where I'm visiting. Um, but if you have any stories from those areas, I'd love to hear what you'd like me to cover because I would like to cover stories from that area while I'm away. Yeah, totally. I also want to say good day to where listeners in Australia, who noticed are there. Good day, mate. How are you? Um, that's not an Australian accent at all, but I'm just here. And I visited Australia last summer and it's so beautiful and I want to go back. Oh, yeah. I want to go down under so bad. I mean, my, my sweetie, his passport has expired recently, so we need to fix that because I want to take it place. Yes. But anyway, friends, we appreciate you so, so much. And I appreciate you, mama. I appreciate you, baby. All righty. Bye, friends. Bye friends.