Apologia Radio

473. America in Crisis, Arizona, and Douglas Wilson

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Duration:: 1h 0m
Broadcast on:: 19 Apr 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

Join us for the newest episode of Apologia Radio in which we discuss the current event with all eyes on Arizona with the abortion law criminalizing abortion doctors and we engage with our friend Douglas Wilson's comments on Smash-mouth Incrementalism. -Get the NAD treatment Jeff is on, go to ionlayer.com and put "IONAPOLOGIA" into the coupon code and get $100 off your first three months! https://www.ionlayer.com -Check out our new partner at http://www.amtacblades.com/apologia and use code APOLOGIA in the check out for 5% off! -You can get in touch with Heritage Defense at heritagedefense.org and use coupon code “APOLOGIA” to get your first month free! -For some Presip Blend Coffee Check out our store at https://shop.apologiastudios.com/ -Check out the Ezra Institute: https://www.ezrainstitute.com/

Woe to those who decree iniquitous decrees, and the writers who keep writing oppression, to turn aside the needy from justice and to rob the poor of my people of their right, that widows may be their spoil, and that they may make the fatherless their prey. What will you do on the day of punishment in the ruin that will come from afar? To whom will you flee for help and where will you leave your wealth? Nothing remains, but to crouch among the prisoners or fall among the slain. For all this, his anger has not turned away and his hand is stretched out still. Welcome back everybody. This is the gospel heard around the world, apology, a radio, very important show today, kind of an emergency broadcast in a sense, a lot online. Things are happening right now. All eyes right now are in Arizona across the country. So much is going on and so we're going to start the show today and ask for your participation, your help. We're going to need you guys for this. A lot of things are happening. That's Luke the bear. What up? I'm Jeff the calm of the ninja and that's Zachary Conover. What's up y'all? Director communications with end abortion. Now go to apology of studios.com to get more a p o l o g i a studios.com. Everything's over there, including all access where you guys can get additional content, including the new apology academies on apologetics and we just cut or just filmed the academy with Dr. Kenneth gentry. His new commentary on the book of Revelation is finally coming out and he just did a apology academy on the book of Revelation. So that's going to be available. Eight specific. Eight lessons. Whoo, I'm excited. So tons of stuff is there. I'm not going to go into it all right now. You just need to go there when you sign up for all access. You get additional content and you are a part of the ministry with us here at Apologia. Everything you see is because people just like you are ministry partners with us. And so let's just dive right into it today. We need to get right to the conversation. So many of you guys are aware of what's happened the last couple of weeks in the state of Arizona. The Arizona Supreme Court ruled that the old law that was on the books through the duration of row, one of two laws actually criminalizing abortion, that law that remained that the abortionist was committing a criminal act was upheld by the Arizona Supreme Court. And so all eyes right now are on Arizona. Donald Trump has had a big part in trying to convince Republican lawmakers, senators, representatives and pro-life leaders. He's had a big part in trying to convince people to move more to the middle on the issue of child sacrifice because we need to win elections. Essentially, the response, we need to win elections. We're not going to win elections on the issue of abortion according to Donald Trump. And so right now all eyes on Arizona because that law, again, criminalizing the abortionist is on the books and being pointed to by the Supreme Court saying that's about law, never been repealed. It stands in the state of Arizona. And so the guys were, while I was coming back from Kentucky and doing an event in Shelbyville, Kentucky, with pastors from across Kentucky and other Christians from across Kentucky trying to abolish abortion in Kentucky, the guys went to the state Capitol here in downtown Phoenix yesterday because believe it or not, believe it or not, there are Republican pro-life establishment leaders that are actually trying to repeal the law that criminalizes the abortion doctor. I want you again, because it sounds like a fiction. It sounds like we're living in the twilight zone. There are Republican right wing professing, conservative professing Christian pro-life legislators in our state who are actually trying to decriminalize abortion in the state of Arizona. But that's set just for a moment, and hopefully as it sets, you'll begin to humbly receive what we've been trying to say for the longest time here at Apology of Studios, Apology of Church and end abortion now that the greatest enemy, the greatest enemy to the abolition of abortion in our nation is pro-life establishment leaders and the pro-life industry. And it's because they fundamentally, they do not fundamentally hold to a Christian worldview. They are not consistent. They are not working to abolish abortion. They never were because it's a fundamentally Christian, a different worldview and not a Christian worldview. So get, mark this down and I'm going to hand it over to the guys. Mark it down. Arizona had two laws on the books, two laws to the duration of Rome. One was criminalizing a mother who willfully takes a life for a child in her womb. That was A.Z. statute 13-3604. The next one is 13-603. Now the one law criminalizing the woman was removed from the books a few years ago, and that was done specifically by the hand of the pro-life leader in Arizona, Kathy Harrod, president leader of Center for Arizona policy. So are you ready for this? There were two laws on the books criminalizing abortion for the abortionist and the mother. Those two laws look like they are going to be erased from the books by the pro-life establishment and those who profess to be for life. One was by Kathy Harrod decriminalizing it for the woman. So right now, listen, all the talk right now in the country about Arizona's abortion ban and all the rest, okay, we're talking about a category of ban. The abortionist can't do it according to Arizona. That's on the books. However, abortion, this is not an abortion-free state. Arizona is not an abortion-free state even with that law because by permission of Kathy Harrod and pro-life legislators, the woman in Arizona is now decriminalized and given full legal permission and protection to any DIY abortion she wants. And that again is given to you by full permission of the pro-life establishment. So it looks like if this is repealed and they're working to repeal it. If it's repealed, it will be right-wing pro-life legislators and the pro-life movement that is actually decriminalized abortion in the state of Arizona, highlight them apples. It's remarkable. It's remarkable that we even have in this conversation too about the law because at the end of the day, we're trying to make this illegal for providers. So it's illegal to aid someone in getting an abortion, but it's not illegal to get an abortion in our state. Like at the end of the day. Right. That's a good way to put it. Right. And so here we are. Here's what we're going to do. Listen, you may have many times sat in prayerful encouragement of us in this ministry of abolition. We're not the only ones doing this. There's abolitionists, faithful abolitionists across the country, Christians, pastors, Christian organizations across the country that are doing this. We praise God for them. We're working in labor and together with them. But many times you guys have maybe seen what the Lord has allowed us to specifically have a part in. And you've said, Oh, I'm praying for them. Lord, bless them. Help them. You know, I wish there was something I can do. Maybe you're in a place where you're like, look, there's no abortion mill near me, not within two and a half hours or something like that. I can't really go there. I don't know what to do. And so maybe you guys have given financially. We're grateful for that. We need your continued financial support for this fight. But maybe you've wondered, how can I help? We're going to tell you right now how you can help because as of right now, by the grace of God, they've tried to repeal this in the house in the state of Arizona. Two times twice in the last week. And they're going to try again and they're going to try again in the house. But now it's being pushed through the Senate to repeal the law that criminalizes the abortion doctor. And again, I need to remind you I need to say it again and again and again. So our eyes will finally be peeled open. It's being done and being moved by the pro life legislators in the state of Arizona. They are trying to decriminalize abortion. Why? Because we need to win elections because we need to stay in the middle. You have Turncoat, charlatan, despicable, disgraceful people like Kerry Lake encouraging people to be more in the middle on this to be, you know, essentially, she's espousing the pro choice position. Yeah, it is. It is the pro choice position. I definitely. She is a despicable, disgraceful example of a professing Christian. I'm sorry. You're advocating for the slaughter of children in this state. You know, I'll just say, I'll just say this honestly. I have been in this, we've been in this for a long enough now to sit in front of legislators who are lying through their teeth to the public, their constituents. They are one way behind closed doors and they are one way on the billboards. I just saw one the other day that actually, let's just put it this way. I know the man for real and I know what he says behind closed doors. And I know his compromise and I was driving and I saw his billboard the other day about voting for him and it said, faith and family, the faith candidates and pro, you know, it's just like, let me just say, you know, these people, we need to stop giving respect to people who don't deserve respect. And so when you talk about people like Donald Trump and Kerry Lake and all the rest and the good things that they have done and you're happy about something, that's fantastic. But when they start advocating for the murder of innocent children, that's where you draw the line. And so we need to call these people out. We need to confront. You can help right now. Well, Zach didn't take any help. So as he said, really, the house was the focus yesterday, but they're advancing a bill in the Senate as well. And so much of this is predicated on the amount of either Republicans or Democrats that we have, but the Republicans themselves, there's a handful on both sides that should they flip flop, they're going to get what they want. And of course, we have the ballot initiative coming up in November too. But there are a couple of things that you can do to take action. And this is really what we're focusing on now, what we did yesterday when we were present at the Capitol, particularly if you live in Arizona. You need to go to the AZ State Legislature's website on your desktop. And you need to register your support in opposition of these two bills, House bill 2677 and Senate bill 1734. If you don't have an account, you just have to create one on their website there on your desktop and then register your opposition, which is a thumbs down to these two bills. You can type them in by name. And from what we're told, the legislature does look at those things. They do take those things into consideration. So it's a very simple way that you can make your voice heard on this issue. And then two, there are senators and representatives, like Jeff mentioned, that are professing pro life Republicans that need to hear from you. We have some content coming out here very, very soon that tells you the information, phone numbers, emails, names of the senators and the representatives that you do need to contact. This is happening next Wednesday. The legislature is reconvening. It will likely happen in the house again. They will likely motion to bring it back up and to vote on it again, which is a dead even stalemate. That's what it was yesterday. It was 30 30 Republicans and Democrats. The Senate side, there are, of course, a couple of Republicans waffling as well, which would swing this, which is how they were able to introduce a motion to introduce the bill in the Senate side in the first place is because Republicans waffled a couple of them and they need to hear from you. They need to hear that they need to stand for justice, stand for these children, do what they say they ran on in order to get elected and follow through with their pro life commitments. They need to understand that you, the citizen, are breathing down their neck to do the right thing, because like Trump and like Lake, these politicians are going to go as far to the center as we allow them. If we don't hold them accountable, if we don't speak and make our voice heard, and so those are two things immediately that you can do. All the steps for where you need to go, how you need to create this, who you need to contact, it's all going to be made available very, very shortly. Phone numbers, emails, and, of course, the website, but those are two specifically practical ways that pastors in particular can disseminate to their congregations and say these are two action items that you can do before next Wednesday. And then show up if you can, show up and be present like we were by God's grace yesterday as this was going down. We were watching it on the monitor, sitting in the overflow room as they were voting on this. You need to be there. And I really think, you know, pastor Zack and another brother from our church, they were there and they confronted one of the Republicans that were going in, one of the guys that was waffling and he ended up voting to not positively against the bill. Good. Yeah. And I'm telling you, who knows with the faithfulness of those brothers being there confronting this man saying, do the right thing before God, you need to be faithful to your commitments. They might have swayed his vote. Yeah. Like when you show up and you trust God and you have faith, you don't know what can happen. Right. So act. Right. I'll just quickly say that, are you going to give? I can give, I can give the names. Oh, please. Yes. Yeah. So Matt Grass, who's the speaker of the house, he has really an axe to grind against these children as a professing pro life Republican. There's a lot of things going on in the background there, but he has the ability to bring forward emotion to call this to a vote again. So he needs to hear from you. And then of course, in the house as well, there's another house member, Timothy Dunn. In the Senate side, TJ Shope and Shawna Bullock. So TJ Shope and Shawna Bullock, these are the people in particular that need to hear from you on both the house and the Senate side. Yeah. Yeah. So just to clarify what's going on. So on the, on the house side, as we mentioned, they're going to, they're probably going to bring it up again next Wednesday. They're only meeting once a week right now. We learned today is that they could actually vote on a budget for next year and close the session and be done for the year. Yeah. That's where they're at. Matt Grass, who also is a homosexual, I think is important to note. He is refusing to close the session until they continue to vote on this. He's going to keep bringing up and up again and again and again. That's what we mean by an axe to grind against these children. Yeah. And he is termed out. So you can't, he, there's no consequences for him. You can't vote him on office. He can't run again. And so like he's just determined that he's just going to do this until it gets a vote. And then on the Senate side, again, it was like 16, 14 years. There's the Republicans that flipped. So where it's at with that as they are, they haven't voted for the bill yet. They're voted to hear the bill. And so they're still, they're going to meet again in two weeks. So there's two weeks that we can try to encourage these so-called pro-life legislators to do the right thing. Hold your feet to the fire. Yeah. And I mentioned this last week. This is how crazy it is. Sean Ebola, who's the main one on the Senate side pushing for this, her husband is on the Arizona Supreme Court and he voted to uphold the law. Right. Dinner time. Yeah. Hate to be around that. Yeah. Yeah. So just to give you guys a feel for the state right now, what's going on. And look, by the way, you might be thinking, well, I'm not even, I'm in Canada. I'm in the UK. I'm in Australia, whatever, South America are a different state in the U.S. like how does this apply to me? This has everything to do with you, our culture, the communities around us because when these things happen, they spread, okay? They spread this kind of mindset spreads. And what's being spread right now is compromise and pragmatism by the Republican right-wing conservative pro-life establishment people. This is, they are saying, this is our position. This is where we all need to move. And now watch the dominoes fall across the country where everybody's compromised, nobody stands on the truth, nobody will speak the truth, nobody will be courageous. Why? Because it falls in one place, it falls in all the rest. And so I want to acknowledge that Trump has a big influence on that huge massive influence. Absolutely. And he's not even in office. Huge. And so now you've got conservative Christians in the pews who are listening to the guy that they love and they're going, oh, I guess this is the, this is the right position. I got to follow my leader sort of a thing. And Trump is compromised. Trump is inconsistent. We just did a show on it last week and encourage you guys to go watch that show as we dealt with some of those issues. But listen, this is not just this happening right now, it's not just this. As we've mentioned, there's ballot measures taking place across the entire nation right now where they're trying to force this into the constitutions of each individual state. We've got it happening in Arizona right now and you're talking about abortion essentially up to birth by way of constitutional amendment in the state's constitution. We are not an abortion free state anywhere. The passing of Roe versus Wade did not do away with the issue of abortion. And so brothers and sisters, this is the moment, this is the moment to be prophetic. This is the moment to be consistent. This moment to stand. I want to say specifically to pastors, my fellow pastors out there, brothers, stand. Use your pulpits. Be prophetic right now is not the time to back down. Now is the time to speak the word of God and the truth in this issue. And now you can see the leadership across our nation right now has either given up completely on this or is waffling on this issue. And we're talking about lives. Listen, Roe versus Wade goes away. We were always saying the whole time it wasn't Roe versus Wade. That was not the problem. It should have been ignored. It wasn't the issue. What we have now going on after, after the overturning Roe versus Wade is that we may find ourselves in short order in a far worse, more bloody Holocaust than we ever were in the 50 years of Roe versus Wade. And what I mean by that right now is abortion numbers are on the rise. They are on the rise. Planned Parenthood just dropped their annual report. They've committed more abortions. Yeah. They are on the rise after the passing of Roe versus Wade. And but beyond that, when I say bloody, I mean a far more bloody brutal Holocaust. It was always brutal. It was always bloody. But what we're talking about now, what they're suggesting with state constitutions and where we're going right now and all the cowardice and compromise happening with the pro-life establishment, we're talking about abortion being legal in states across the union from zero to nine months, essentially is what it looks like with the ballot measures in terms of like viability. But that's not really defined. And you know, if they require extreme medical care, which you're talking about, NICUs, like what my just my girls were in the NICU for two months to 29 weeks. And according to this, they're they're up for grabs. Yeah. They're up for grabs. And then beyond that, there's even language in some of these things that says, even if viability is a thing, if the mother's mental health is affected, the doctor can sign off, she mentally can't do this. And so we're talking about abortion up to birth, that's what we're talking about essentially. And so we're talking, listen, do not relax the we're in the middle of the fight right now. Because isn't over. We're not we're not we're not mopping up. Right. We're in the thick of it. We're in the very thick of it. And as you can see right now, this is what we're dealing with. And the near total civil war era ban that continues to hang over our heads only serves to create more chaos for women and doctors in ours. You know, it's funny about this, this, this ridiculous tactic of the leftist civil war era. You know what else is banned since the Civil War? I do. Slavery. Yeah. What if someone comes along and uses this ridiculous argumentation and says, oh, this ridiculous slavery ban that's been around since the Civil War? Do you see the games that they play? Yeah. It's just simply a minute. It's emotional manipulation. They cannot stand cross examination over the facts and the issues. All they can do is play with people's emotions. That's what they did yesterday too. We're sitting in the house and what were the arguments for supporting rape, incest, life of the mother, health of the mother, listen, this lady right here, you just put your finger on it. Bottom line, murdering people is wrong, whether that's 1864 or 2024. Right. That's right. Right. Right. Eight. As governor, I promise I would do everything in my power to protect our reproductive freedoms. Here's what I've done so far and how we can continue to work together to end. I just got to say it, nobody's trying to stop anybody's freedom to reproduce. Yeah. It's just another word game. It's just all mind games, emotional manipulation, reproductive freedoms. We're not talking about the freedom. To chant the public. Right. We're not talking about the ability to reproduce and the freedom to do so. The problem we're having, the reason we're having this problem is because there's been a not responsible reproductive reproduction. Not reproductive righteousness. Yeah. Exactly. That's a better way to word that is. Right. So just pay close attention to all of the emotional manipulation cues. It's never ending assault on our basic rights. First, my executive order removing the ability of county attorneys to prosecute women and doctors for performing abortions remains. I refuse to allow extremist county prosecutors to use this abortion ban to lock up women and doctors seeking or providing needed health care. Health care, health care for whom? Who? Health care? We're talking about abortion. You're talking about the systematic, disemboweling, dismembering and decapitating of another human being. Genocide. A distinct human being inside the womb. That is not health care. You're talking about a distinct living human being that you are willfully and unjustly attacking. And that's what we're talking about. So health care, reproductive rights, pay close attention to the manipulation. Second, my administration has expanded access to over-the-counter contraceptives. Today, Arizonans across the state can walk into their pharmacy to obtain birth control medication without a doctor's prescription. Third. And by the way, again, that is 100% legal to do. I have to mention that thank you to Kathy Harrod and thank you to the Center for Arizona Policy. Thank you to the pro-life legislators that decriminalized it for the mother in the state of Arizona. Again, two laws in Arizona all since the Civil War, essentially, you've got these old laws. And the one that was taken down was prosecuting the woman who willfully takes life for a child. And that was done not by the pro-choicers, it was done by the pro-life establishment. And so the women right now in Arizona have freedom to kill their babies willfully, completely and freely. And by permission of the pro-life establishment, that's a fact. She could stand behind her right now. She might go into Walgreens, see abortion pills. She could stand behind her on that platform right now on national news, take that pill and face no legal reports whatsoever. Exactly. And so all this talk about an abortion ban is nonsense. We're talking about one category with that law. It's just that guy can't do it is what the law says. It doesn't say that there's a ban on abortion in the state of Arizona. It can do it freely. And there's no prosecution, there's legal immunity, and do it with impunity. And again, you can give a big round of applause to the pro-life establishment for making sure that that is the environment that we're in right now on the state of Arizona. Well, I was going to say, let's not call it birth control either. There are board of fations is what she's talking about. Right, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Last year, I vetoed legislation that would have threatened access to IVF and potentially endangered access to any and all abortions in our state. And any other legislation that threatens to take away our rights will continue to be met with my veto stamp. Fourth, I am calling on the legislature to do. I wonder how people would feel during the time of the abolition of slavery if we got to a place where I was like, no, we're all abolishing slavery. And then a governor stands up and says, I don't care what you do with slavery. As governor, I'm going to make sure it's not prosecuted. You land owners, you plantation owners, you enslavers, you kidnappers, you go on doing what you're doing. It's your plantation, you're right. And I'll stand for your rights to do what you want on your own property. And I'm going to ignore all of the standards of justice and law because in my state, I'm going to ensure you still have the right to kidnap and enslave black people. How do people feel about this? I wonder. I wonder. It's just it's a different category of oppression of human beings. It's just a different category. And it's not dramatic hyperbole, no, it's a genuine moral parallel. Yes. You can't escape it. Right. It's still an abuse of an image barrier of God. Right. Yeah. And like I've said before, legislators across the country, it looks different in different circumstances in history, but we tend to do this as sinful, fallen human beings. If we draw a circle around our group and we dehumanize another group, it happens in slavery, it happened here in the Holocaust, it's happening right now with the most innocent and defenseless among us who draw a circle around ourselves. And we say we can destroy these ones. And it's just, it's just like you guys also have a clip, maybe I'll get a chance to pull it up in a second. The Bill Mar clip that's making rounds right now where he said the quiet part, where he said the quiet part out. Wow. I'm so thankful for that. Right. Actually, you know what? The better, better thing to do would be to pull it up here. I've got it going while you're pulling it up. It's just unbelievable. Like he refuted incrementalism. He came down on the pro-choice propaganda and he admitted that abortion is actually murder all in one fell swoop. He covered like every single base there was to cover and then he leaves it hanging in the air saying like, yeah, I just don't want these people around. There's eight billion people on the earth. That's my position. If your pro-choice, isn't that your position? Yeah. And everybody in the audience is just dead silent. Right. And it's somewhere in here where we're going, where we're going, okay, let's see. Let me see. If you haven't seen it, I want to make sure you see it. So forgive me. I just didn't plan on pulling the clip up here. So it's probably near the end. Maybe they probably didn't even put it in this clip to embarrass, but well, maybe I'll pull it up. I'll revisit it. Yeah, come back. Pull it up. Okay. I've been sending it a thousand times. Bill Maher says the quiet thing out, like if you can find it, send it to me. He says the quiet part out loud and essentially Bill Maher is showing his level of disrespect for pro-life establishment types. And people like Donald Trump who will say, well, like leave it up the states and decide how many they want to kill and who exactly they want to kill and the pro-life establishment that has like limitations, well, you can kill these kids, but not these kids. And Bill Maher is saying, he doesn't have an respect for that and he shouldn't have respect for that. But then he says the quiet part out loud. It actually is the position of the left. You don't understand this. Here it is. Let's pull it up. Okay. Go ahead, Isaac. Transfer. Sorry if you believe it's murder. You know, that's why I don't understand the 15 week thing or the Trump's plan is let's leave it to the states. You mean so killing babies is okay in some states, like I can respect the absolutist position. You really can. I scold the left on when they say, oh, you know what, they just hate women. People who aren't pro-life, pro-choice, they just, they don't hate women. They just made that up. They think it's murder and it kind of is. I'm just okay with that. I am. I mean, there's 8 billion people in the world. I'm sorry, we won't miss you. That's my position on the, what? It's quite gross. Yeah, exactly. Honest. You notice how we have to laugh to alleviate the conviction that we feel on our own hearts? That's how we cover it up is with hilarity. So here, Belmar is actually showing that these are the two real positions. Like all this, all this conversation happened in the middle isn't even real. It's not, it's not important in terms of you're not getting anywhere in the conversation. He says, the absolutist position that says this is murder and has to stop. He's saying all these people that say that they're pro-life, they're not making any sense. Well, what you want to say in some states can decide who they can murder. He's like, that doesn't make any sense to me. That's right. It doesn't make any sense to Belmar. He hasn't, he hasn't lost the image of God and his ability to reason through those questions. And so he says, that makes no sense, it's not consistent. The other side, he says, well, you know, it's murder and it is, it kind of is. I just don't care. And you know, it's amazing is that that's what we've been trying to say to the pro-life leaders and establishment is that you don't spend a lot of time outside of abortion mills because that is what we hear outside the abortion mill. I know it's my baby. I have a right to kill my baby if I want to. And so what we're hearing at the abortion mill is precisely that. I'm just okay with that. I'm just okay with what I'm doing. And that's, that's where this, that's where this conversation really goes. And so I don't like the fact that we have to be corrected by the likes of Belmar in the pro-life movement and within Christian conservative circles, we're receiving correction from our rabbit unbeliever and hater of God like Bill Maher. And so yeah, there you go. So let's get into a conversation with our friend Douglas Wilson. You might be thinking like, well, I bring this to these together. It's important. Because it's we're kind of dealing with the same things. Now, mind you, please be very, be very clear on this. I'm not saying that Pastor Doug, my friend, my very good friend, a man that I've gone to many times for counsel, and I will continue to, someone that I love dearly and I respect greatly, someone who I've spent, I don't know how many Sabbath dinners at his house, I've forgotten, a couple, three, I don't even know. We've, we've shared meals together. We've served, we've, we've served the Lord together on platforms together, preached the Word together. I love Doug. And so I'm not putting Doug in the same category as the typical pro-life establishment types. However, however, however. This promotion of so-called smash mouth incrementalism, I think is not helpful and it only adds or exacerbates the problem. And so we're going to deal with some of the comments that Doug recently made on, again, smash mouth incrementalism. And I know we've done talks like this before, but it is very important to this conversation because if we don't get this right within the church, we are going to lose our ability to have the impact that we need to have with the Word of God and the gospel in this area. And so, so first thing we'll do is we go to Doug's conversation. He recently dropped. It is called fixing pro-life strategy, smash mouth incrementalism at the polls. And Zach, can you help me out a bit here with the time stamps? 130. Here we go. Here is our friend Douglas Wilson, an issue, an abolitionist to someone who does not want to chip away at our ungodly abortion laws. He wants simply to outlaw the practice pure and simple. An establishment pro-lifer is someone who wants to discourage abortion by whatever means are currently expedient and a lot rides on what the cool kids tell us expedient means. And a smash mouth incrementalist is someone who wants to implement whatever restrictions we can successfully place on abortion now with a stated goal of coming back for more in the very next round and with all of us understanding that the final goal is the entire eradication of human abortion. This is something I wrote. So what kind of laws are they? Ungodly. I think it is where to use it. Ungodly. That's right. So the scripture that you read at the beginning, Isaiah chapter 10. Yes. Iniquitous decrees. So these are laws that show partiality. These are laws that condemn the innocent and acquit the wicked. These are laws that have unequal weights and measures posited, right? One standard here for this group, another standard for this group, right? So ungodly in my mind, my contention would be with love and respect to brother Doug that ungodly abortion law, God calls an abomination, right? It's not just ungodly, right? There's no neutrality. It's an abomination. And the contention that smash mouth incrementalism is really the way forward here. You know, in other words, throw the kitchen sink at abortion. It doesn't matter what laws we support or maybe if there is an opportunity to dialogue about this, is there a law that you wouldn't support? And is there a limiting principle that you're working with in terms of what kind of laws you would support and what kind of laws you wouldn't? Because we would say if the law, which the pro-life lobbies have been putting forward now for five decades, have told have told us anything, it's we show partiality. There's unequal weights and measures and we condemn the innocent and we acquit the wicked, the guilty. Now, is there a standard in scripture that holds us accountable to say, no, we're not going to go along with that? Right. What's the principle? And he's about to talk about the need for a standard. So let's talk about a standard. Yeah. Is there a standard that closes off to a certain pathways of ending abortion? I believe there is. Yeah. So what the Christian abolitionists are arguing is we're arguing for a prophetic ministry, a gospel-centered ministry in the midst of the abortion holocaust. We're saying that the word of God is the standard and that what we need to do in a time like this is be prophetic and not pragmatic. And so I specifically read this particular chapter or this word from Isaiah chapter 10 starting in verse one, specifically read that because scripture does talk about those who actually write iniquitous decrees. And it's interesting because praise God for the providence in this, it doesn't just mention an iniquitous decree, it says that the result of the iniquitous decree is that they make the fatherless their prey. And so God says, woe to you, a curse on you to hell with you, damn you, who write these iniquitous decrees who make fatherless children pray. And what we're arguing as Christian abolitionists is based upon the word of God, we have to confront these legislators and our nation with the very words of God, not compromise with them, but tell them prophetically woe to you. You are making these fatherless children pray, they have no representation. They have no covering. They have no protection. These children in the womb, they are the fatherless. They are without representation of a father. That's what these children in the womb are. They are made prey by this so-called incremental legislation because the legislation says you can kill these children, but you cannot kill these children. Therefore, making these children pray via legislation by law with a fancy pen. And so what we're saying is that the Christian abolitionists says, no, our duty in the culture is not to play politics and pragmatism, but to be prophetic to use the word of God. And what we're arguing, brother Doug, and we've learned this so much from you because you've done it so well in so many areas of the ministry, is that we have to be prophetic here and speak to the industry and the legislators like prophets. And how does the prophet speak to those who write iniquitous decrees who make the fatherless pray? He doesn't speak to them with compromise. He says a curse on you. He doesn't go to, he doesn't go to the ones who write these iniquitous decrees and try to see if he can get him just a nudge a little bit further and just, you know, do a little less iniquitous decreeing. He says, whoa, do you a curse on you and, and mind you, and this is really important where, where our heart is on this is that the way that the prophet speaks to those who are doing iniquitous decrees here is he does it by way of a threat. Listen, when he says after he talks about making the fatherless pray, he says, what will you do? This is to those who write iniquitous decrees. This is how the prophet speaks to them. What will you do on the day of punishment in the ruin that will come from afar to whom we have flee for help and where will you leave your wealth? Nothing remains. Nothing the prisoners will fall among the slain for all this, what? The iniquitous decrees, the fatherless pray, right, the, not establishing justice. His anger is not turned away and his hand is stretched out still. That's how the prophets speak to those who write iniquitous decrees. And I will say one more word on, on this particular point, the one thing that I struggle with when I listen to Brother Doug talking about smash, mouth incrementalism and we're just going to go, we're trying to get everything we can, but with the stated goal that we're not done and our goal is abolition. That's what we're going to do. Here's, here's my question. And I don't mean this in any way disrespectful, Doug, Doug knows how much I love him and respect him. And I can't say it enough, but this is a vitally important issue. I'm not seeing a lot of smash, mouth incrementalisms, incrementalists at the legislature, precisely. Where are they? I don't, I don't, because here's what I see. What I see at the legislature is the pro-life establishment types. I see the pro-life establishment types. Which he alludes to. I said, Doug, Brother, they don't hold to your worldview. They don't. They do not. And what I mean by your worldview is your standard of justice is God's standards of justice. And so when you talk about getting to the ultimate end goal of abolition of abortion and equal protection, that that's where you want to go, Doug, what I've said before, and I do hope you see this, Brother, public talk responding with a public talk, nothing behind your back. What I've said before, Brother, is that you don't seem to understand. You have missed this, that the establishment doesn't hold to your worldview and they are not working for equal protection. They are not. They're not working for abolition and equal protection. They don't have the same goal. They are not. They believe that a mother who does it willfully must be given legal immunity and to be able to do with impunity. So your goal, Pastor Doug, of working towards abolition, the Smash Mouth incrementalism that gets to abolition, is not their goal. They don't want that. They're the establishment types. They're the ones that are writing the so-called incremental legislation that you're referring to. And I don't see the Smash Mouth incrementalists at the legislature. Haven't seen them yet. I haven't seen them there. I don't see them putting in bills trying to abolish abortion. Why do you establish that there? Why do you think that is, though? If you're going to speak like a prophet, then you have to reference the standard. Yeah. Like, that's the point, is that those lifting up the prophetic witness in the public square are pointing to something. They're standing on something. Yeah. Right. And the compromise, we're standing on the scriptures. We're standing on the standard. Yeah. And that's what we're heralding. Yeah. Like, that's what's going forth. And just very quickly, and I'll kick it over to you, Pastor Luke, just this is so important to get brothers and sisters. I really hope you grab hold of this. The debate between Smash Mouth incrementalists and abolitionists is actually not about incrementalism versus immediately. That is a false distinction, because in reality, the issue is between justice versus injustice, which will you support? Because the abolitionists know and acknowledge, we're doing it all the time, and so are others just like us. We acknowledge that we've got, we're probably first going to abolish it in a place with a small circle around it like Kentucky or Georgia or Louisiana. We'll establish justice probably in an increment, but it'll be a just increment. So abolitionists are not opposed to incrementalism in terms of justice in this spot first, and then it's going to spread from there. So it's not about incrementalism versus immediateism. It is about injustice versus justice. What can you support? Can we faithfully be prophets in this culture and support something that God specifically identifies as an abomination? Can, and here it is, can I use iniquitous means to get to a righteous end? Is that honor and glorify God? And will God bless that? Can we do evil that good may come? That's right. Yeah. And look, there's no way around this. And Doug would agree. Doug would agree with us. He would agree that these bills of partiality are wickening God's eyes. He would agree that unequal weights and measures are wickening God's eyes. Doug's a Theonymous, just like us. But I don't believe that he's allowed the consistency that he has normally to get into him in this issue of the issue of abortion. I think that Doug has a lot of experience. He's older than us. He's wiser than us in so many ways. A lot of experience over the last generation where he's, he's mingled with and been in contact with pro lifers and pro life Christians and everything else. And so he hasn't, I don't think he's actually realized that the establishment who's running all the plays, okay, they're running all the plays. They don't hold to your position, Doug. They don't believe what you and I believe about this. They're not working for equal protection. And they specifically put their name on the line, Doug, to say, with my approval, I will not support any bills of equal protection for children in the womb. And we don't want any legislators in this nation to do any bills of equal protection that would lead to the prosecution of one of the people involved in the murder of the child. And that's the mother. And so Doug, they don't hold to your position. They don't hold to your worldview. And so all the ones running the plays aren't actually on the same field as you. They're not even playing the same game. They're somewhere off into this and somewhere else they have a different end zone to push the analogy. You just lost, Jeff. Yeah. That's as far as I can go. You were doing well. It's not soccer. Yeah, it was good. Well, I, before I want to challenge a Doug here, I want to come to the fence for a minute because I'm seeing a lot of people in the chat saying, oh, Doug's the same as, you know, the pro life industry, incrementalist, whatever. I want to say, no, that's not exactly true. Basically what Doug would say his position is run all the plays, which includes the plays that we're running. Yeah. You know, the equal protection plays criminalize abortion. Yeah. So they would be supportive of that. We've been on cross politics. They've supported our bills. So there is, there is a difference. I just want to because the pro life industry is just flat out against anything we're doing, which we've talked about. We're saying Doug's unaware of this. He seems very much unaware of this. Yeah. And so, you know, like you said, we love Doug. Doug's probably going to watch this. Doug, you're one of my heroes. And we'll be hanging out with Doug sometime in the year and I'm going to be at his house again, or he becomes Arizona. He's coming to my house. And so this isn't, this isn't a fight between Doug and us in terms of any kind of relationship issue. Yeah. So I think the main point is what we're asking is that you're just consistent and, you know, the setup you gave to, to the bills that we're doing about, you know, an equalist degrees there and then Doug would agree with a hundredfold, a hundred percent, he'd be, yep, absolutely. So the question is, why is it that when it comes to abortion, you're not consistent? That's what it's kind of mind boggling to us. And that's what we're trying to get to the bottom of. Yeah. All right. So this is at five minutes, 30 seconds in his Smash Mouth incrementalism at the polls. It is a difficult process for a purest ideologue to understand. The Smash Mouth incrementalist knows where he's going and he's wanted to get there by means of incremental gains. So the abolitionist has a dilemma. The former president has just made it crystal clear that he is not an abolitionist. Can an abolitionist vote for him? He's not a pure presidential candidate. But is purity the standard or is actual progress the standard? All or nothing purity is likely to wind up with nothing. But the only way to measure actual progress is by increments. Even though Trump is not an abolitionist, he has stated a policy that makes room for abolitionists to work at the state level. Moving it up to the states means that abolitionists could actually succeed at the state level. And for Trump, these are not just words. Because he appointed the three scodist justices that he did, Roe, which was a federal straight jacket on all the states, was reversed in Dobbs. And because of Dobbs, abolitionism at the state level is now a possibility. Abolitionism is not on the rise because incrementalism is a dead end. Just the reverse. Abolitionism is a real option now because of the success of incrementalism. All right. There's a lot there. Quickly, quickly, Dobbs was not a success in terms of the eyes of God. The Supreme Court justices washing their hands of this issue, not condemning it, calling it murder, and saying to the states, "You decide to kill the children." Is God striking a straight blow with a crooked stick? It's not an amazing thing we should be glorying in. We should condemn the fact that they were wrong to do what they did in terms of saying, "You guys decide if you want to kill the children." But we're thankful that God did away with it, and Doug, we paid to have the amicus brief put into the case that was arguing from a consistent position as to why Roe needed to go away. I'll let you speak. There's just so much. I mean, the overturning of Roe has that made us more diligent and vigilant in our efforts to end abortion as a nation, or has it made us take our foot off the gas? Yeah. Absolutely. Again, again, abortion numbers are on the rise. There is no abortion-free state in this nation. We were arguing as abolitionists, Doug, that Roe needed to be ignored because it was not a law. Congress creates laws in our nation. The Supreme Court needed to be ignored and rejected by lesser magistrates. That would be the consistent Christian doctrinal position on the issue. So we were arguing that. Also, I want to say that in terms of Trump making room for abolitionism, Trump's fighting against abolitionism, and people are listening. People are listening. That on the point is when he speaks, those that follow him listen and adopt his positions. He's incredibly influential, and once again, this has lulled people into adopting these centrist positions on what God calls child sacrifice. He took credit for making sure that children and IVF were not protected. Those are real influences that lead to actual, tangible lives being lost. And Doug, we know things, I'm just saying rather, we know things right now about what's happening with Arizona legislature, specifically by Trump and what he's doing. He's not making room for abolition, and he's fighting against abolition in our state. Yeah, and we talked about this briefly last week. We are grateful that we are able to fight this to the state level. Again, that's how our constitutional republic was set up. But I would argue it's not because of Roe being overturned that allows us to fight the state level. It's because we're a constitutional republic. The problem is that our states still should have been acting that way, but they were scared of the federal beast, and they were scared of the Supreme Court ruling and Roe v. Wade. So Roe being overturned doesn't make it so that we can fight the state level. It was already there. Yeah. Because we're a constitutional public. Yeah, exactly. Because the way our system of laws was created because of the Christian heritage over our nation is really why. But to this point about purists, to the point about purists, like, well, you can't vote for Trump then because he's not, you know, right and all the right areas, I think actually that's a category error to compare a person that has to be right in all their views and to vote for them as presidents. And this isn't about whether you vote for Trump or not, I'm saying. I think it's a category area in terms of a leader. Is he perfect in all ways? Is he right in every area or I can't vote for him? And then this area over here about the establishment of justice for the pre-born, you're talking about a category of justice, a category of justice in terms of legislation. So I think in comparing the perfect political representative, is he pure in all ways? Is he fully consistent to the issue of the establishment of justice? I do believe is a category error. What we're saying is that you have to speak against the issue as it is. This is murder. This must stop. You must have equal protection and all the ways people have tried to get around the edges of that by compromise and pragmatism we're saying are ultimately displeasing to God and they represent things that God has already abominated. And so in terms of- Things that he said he won't bless. In terms of our witness. Now, and I just have to point this out. This is so important and listen, I'll just go on the record here. Doug's a better man and a better pastor than I'll ever be. I believe that with all my heart, he is so sharp. He is incredibly gifted by God. He has a mind that is rare in a generation of men and pastors, he's one of the best, he's one of the jewels. He's God's given him a mind that's just absolutely incredible. And Doug is consistent like in Sony places, I look to him again for so much encouragement and help and again, Doug and I are good friends I believe. And there's been so many times we've had tough times and challenges as pastors, Doug's the first guy I call. And Doug has always answered the phone for me. Even like late night phone calls, like I think once I call him at 11 o'clock at night. And he did no limitation on time, he was just there for me. Any good passage is getting started at 11 p.m. That's true. But in this area, I'll say this playfully, he's as wrong about abolition as he is about baptism. And only the errors with abolition are far more glaring, far far more glaring. And what I mean by that is just here's a point. Doug is arguing here for this Smash Mouth incrementalism. Essentially you can play in the political field, work with what's pragmatic for the moment, what is real, what is realistic for the moment is we can only accomplish this. So he's arguing here's Smash Mouth incrementalism that we make some plays, you know, we even compromise, we go along with an iniquitous decree and say, yeah, go ahead and pass that iniquitous decree, but I'm coming back. I'm coming back. You better know I'm coming back. And so he's arguing that way in terms of how we're going to solve this holocaust, we'll do it incrementally and we'll do it with taking some wins, taking some losses and those losses are abominable losses. Those losses are by permission. You can kill these, but not these. Let's be honest. That's what the laws do. You can kill these children by permission in the state, but not these children. However, that's not how Doug always talks because Doug's a great pastor. He's a great man of God. That's not how Doug always talks and many guys probably already saw this week. I hope you did the Douglas Wilson and I was grateful to see this was on Tucker. It's fantastic. Here brother Doug, this is how you talk to Tucker about how the nation is going to change. And then this is a no way to belittle or denigrate pastor Doug. It's just to say this is consistent. And what the abolitionists are arguing, Doug, is we should be like you here in this spot. Not the one, not the God on our money. How do you go back to a system based on Christian assumptions in a country that's no longer Christian? What you do, and this is you invite a preacher under your show, you're going to get some preaching. Hope so. All right. So there's no way. There's no way to do it. Outside of God raising up preachers who preach a hot gospel and church planting, there's no way to do this politically. You got to make the country Christian again. That's right. Basically, we're in such a mess that there is no political solution. All right. We're beyond hope. There is no political solution. The next election, however happy it might make us for 10 minutes, is not going to fix everything. That's right. Okay. Our disease is radical and it's spiritual. We've got a radical leprosy and the United States needs to repent of its sin to use an old fashioned term. We need to repent of our sins, our arrogance, and turn back to God. That's what is necessary and we need preachers who are willing to tell them to do that, proclaim that this is what you must do. And they must not do it in terms of law, or like thou shalt, thou shalt, thou shalt. The law condemns, but the gospel liberates. So that is in principle what the abolitionists are arguing. Is that case? Is that you're not going to fix this Holocaust and change the order that is there, the legal order that is there, politically, you must do it prophetically. Pastors must be raised up. They must speak against the issue of sin. And what we're saying is that these pieces of legislation that are iniquitous decrees, they show partiality and God explicitly says in his law, he says, you should show no partiality in judgment, unequal weights and measures. They acquit the guilty, all the rest, all these things represent sin. And the issue of the Holocaust in America is a spiritual sickness. And the only way, as Doug rightly says, to overcome that spiritual sickness and that death is through a hot gospel. It is through the word of God. That's what you have to speak. That's how the transformation occurs. And so that's all the abolitionists are arguing is that you have to speak to legislators, not in terms of, okay, we'll accept the iniquitous decree, you can kill those kids but not, okay, we'll accept it. But we're coming back. We're coming back. No, the answer is hot gospel. The answer is the full authority of Jesus Christ. The answer is the law word of God. The answer is calling out that that's wicked. What you're trying to do is evil. Now, I want to argue, and I believe this is accurate, that this strategy of like, let's push this out over maybe 20, 30 years, do we finally get enough increments that end in abolition? Now, again, the establishment's not working to establish justice as an equal justice. They're not working for abolition, okay? This whole argument of, let's just wait two or three decades to see if we can finally get there. How many babies are going to die? How many babies are going to die from point A to Z? How many are going to die in that time period? What I want to argue is this, if we preach a hot gospel and the law word of God faithfully as ministers of the gospel to these legislators saying that is wicked, that is an abomination, it is inconsistent, it's a sin against God, you're going to answer to God for that. If we preach that for say five years, hot gospel with all we've got, do you think the world's going to change? Do you think legislators are going to be convicted by that and they're going to change? If they see that the Christian church and ministers of the gospel will not accept this injustice and they will tell the truth about it and they will show no compromise, they will not be pragmatic about it, they will be principled about it, I want to say that we'll save more lives over the long run by simply being abolitionists and say this is the law word of God, repent and believe the gospel. That's what we have to do. And Doug says that all the time. I mean, that's one of the main points of his ministry is God bless his obedience. Do we really believe that? Yeah. If you're obedient and calling people to that standard, I don't think we have to choose between our idealists, what's in our minds in theory, what we're going to do in our practice. There can be a beautiful harmony between those things. It's not about being an idealist or being a realist. Be faithful. Yes, be faithful, be principled and don't compromise for the supposed victory or the progress. Yeah. Right. What is the question that he asked? He said, what's the standard? Like I keep coming back to that because the whole tagline is by what standard, right? That's what we say all the time and that's what he says. So is the standard purity or progress? Well, if by purity, you just simply mean here's what we believe and we're not compromising on the way to apply that to the world around us, then yeah, I'm a purist, you know, like I'm a purist that believes it and means it and those two don't have to be at war with each other. I don't think. That's right. All right. I think we're running on time here for today. We're going to go to the after show in just a moment here, everyone. So if you guys are partners with us in ministry and you have all access, go over to the channel apology of studios.com or the website and get ready for the after show. We're going to do a quick after show with everybody here. But before we go to that, I just wanted to say we've been talking for several months now about ion layer, ion layer.com is where you can go run by great Christian dudes and they have an incredible, incredible thing for your health and well-being. You've noticed that's probably, do you have your job today? Not today? No. Luke and I have our ion layer patches on right now. This is an NAD patch. If you don't know what that is, go and just Google NAD benefits and you're going to just have your mind blown about how God has given us this amazing chemical in our system that you lose a lot of as you age. And this is nicknamed the fountain of youth because of what this does for the biochemical process in your body. It has truly blessed my life and my health since I've been doing it. It is very expensive when you do it by way of IV and it's also very painful. Everybody knows that about NAD drips. But these guys found a way to do it. They're a medical patch. You get, is it six treatments in a box? Six treatments in a box and for less than you would pay for one NADIV treatment and doesn't hurt at all. Keep it with you over the day. And while I was in Kentucky, there was a dude that drove his motorcycle seven hours to come to the event and when he walked up to me, he's like, "Hey, man, thanks so much for recommending this." And he pulled a shirt up and he had a stuck to his side and he was like, "It's incredible." He's like, "It's seriously like just changed so much in my life." And he's like, "I don't even drink coffee anymore when I have it on because I'm just so focused." I'm like, "Wow. Praise the Lord for that." So anyways, go to ionlayer.com. If you guys want to give it a shot, want to invest in your health and well-being, ionlayer.com, write Apologia and all camps in the coupon code and then you guys will get a discount and they also bless our ministry so we can keep doing what we're doing as a ministry. Luke? You know who does support equal protection? Bill Rapier. Yes. An amtech belief that this is beautiful. True. Seal Team Six. They're going to axe to the root. Axe to the root. Check that thing out. If you go to amtechblades.com, you can get one of his sweet knives or this battle axe and you can put Apologia in the coupon code with 5% off your order. And he also gives 5% to end abortion now to support the work we're doing. So yes. One of the most legendary Navy SEALs from Seal Team Six are Dev Groove, the last generation. You know who else supports equal protection? Bradley Pierce. Yes. Our kind of social lawyer who writes a lot of our bills. If you're a homeschooling family, please go to heritagedefense.org and sign your family up right now so you're protected in case any three letter agency ever comes to your door. They show up at your door. You've got an account with this organization. You make a quick phone call and you put them on the phone with your lawyer right there on the spot. And so it's really important, especially in light of our current climate and what Christians are facing. So if you don't have it, make sure you get it as soon as possible. Yeah. And put Apologia in the coupon code there as well. You get the first month free. That's right. All right, everybody. So again, we're going to head over to the after show right now. Make sure you guys join us over there. Go to endabortionnow.com to give financially. We've got a big fight ahead of us. We need your financial help and support to do what we're doing. You can see we're up against a lot. And so go to endabortionnow.com to give there. We need you to help us to get to our budget if you would so we can accomplish all that we need to accomplish this year with these bills and to abolish abortion in different states. And don't forget we're heading over to the after show. So get over there. If you don't have your account, get your account, meet us over there. We're going to do a quick after show. That is Luke the Bear. He's out. I'm Jeff the Ninja. That's Zachary Kahn over. Yeah. We'll catch you guys next time right here on Apologia Radio. [MUSIC] [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO]