(upbeat music) This is Maximum Lawyer with your host, Tyson Mutrix. (upbeat music) - Welcome Ashley, how are you? - Good, thanks. - So we've interviewed you before. So I went back and looked at that transcript, which was, it was interesting, it was cool. I wanna start with something else though. - Okay. - You started AGS Law, I guess, what year was it? - It was 2020, right when COVID hit. - Right, so I have a post from October 29th of 2020. - Okay. - And I want you to get your thoughts on it. - Okay. - All right, so you put in there, says launching on November 2nd, legal services offered, and you list a bunch of legal services. - Yeah, I sure did. - All right, so I wanna know, how do you feel about the post now, with a little bit of hindsight? - Silly, I actually feel a little bit silly about it, because I think going into it, I was at a general practice law firm. I mean, we did litigation, but we kind of just did everything that came into the door. And so I thought, that's the way that you make money, in a law firm. Like, you just do all of the things, and then you can get all of the clients. And the interesting thing, it wasn't until I started listening to maximum lawyer, probably about six months after I started the firm. And you guys were talking about nicheing down. Now, I knew at the time that I was gonna do dental transitions, but also I thought, well, how many dentists could be buying or selling practices? Like, this seems like maybe I'll get one or two a month. And so I felt like I had to really be broad when I started out. And it wasn't until about six months after, first of all, I was super overwhelmed. I wasn't getting the clients that I wanted, I was getting kind of crap clients, because I was just taking everything. And then when I really niche down, and decided like, I am really just gonna focus on dental transitions, that's when I got more clients, I wasn't feeling quite as overwhelmed, I was able to really specialize, but yeah, I was gonna do everything. - So I do wonder, I hear this sometimes, where attorneys feel less fulfilled, whenever they're not doing all the different things, 'cause they get more variety. What are your thoughts on that? - Well, I thought the same thing. And I remember thinking that like, even when I just had graduated law school, because I thought, well, I wanna do litigation, 'cause then I can be in the courtroom, but I wanna do estate planning, 'cause then I can make people feel happy when we sign their estate plan. So I get that, but now being a firm that has really niche down, I don't feel any less fulfilled doing this, than I did doing all of the other things. In fact, I actually feel more fulfilled now, because I'm actually able to do the things I want to do. Aside from being a law firm owner and a boss and a lawyer, like I'm able to spend more time with my family, and do things like this and travel, and so I feel actually more fulfilled, because I've really niche down. - So, something I was thinking about with your practice area, it is really, I wanna say odd, but it's so different than many. I mean, it's like a niche, within a niche, within a niche, so it's really difficult, but something I was thinking about, so with this post, you mentioned all these different practice areas. I mean, it's probably 30, it's a bunch of it, but I just wonder, it seems like with your practice area, you might be doing a lot of these things, inside of that niche, or am I wrong? - No, I think that that's probably right, because, so I mean, it still is business law, and I don't know, I probably had trademarks on there too, and at some point I was doing trademarks for some of my dental clients, and now, in fact, it was the last guild mastermind that I went to, I think you said get rid of trademarks, and I did, and so even that's gone out the window, and so really, it's business law, kind of acquisitions, and then still some estate planning, because you have dentists who are selling their practices, and they still haven't created a trust. So, that's really, basically it, what other practice areas are on there? - Oh, I can go to them. - You definitely had trademarks, business formation, business succession, contract drafting, and review, customizable contracts available on the website, trademark registration, employment handbooks, and documents, business consulting, demand letters, cease and desist letters, I can keep going, I am one fourth of the way through it. - No, that's terrible, oh, that's embarrassing. - It's a long list, you mentioned the freedom of all the kinds of stuff, but I mean, what have you learned from every time you've nitched down? Because it is interesting, the thought is, I'm gonna remove this practice area, I'm gonna make less money, but you and I both know that that's not true, you do make more money, but what other lessons are there inside of that about nitching down? - I think the big one is, what's interesting is when I have clients call me, and we're talking about dentists, so when I have dentists call me, and we do a consultation, they specifically, almost all of them ask, are you dental specific? Which is so funny, because how many lawyers are you really going to ask that? But that's what they want, because they've talked to their broker, and they've talked to their lender, and they've talked to other dentists, and everyone has told them, you need an attorney that does dental transitions, because there's something unique about dental transitions, so almost all of them will ask me, are you dental specific? How many transitions do you do in a year? How many of you done overall? And it makes them feel more confident, so my conversion rate on consultations is really high because of that, because I've niche down, so it's not hard for me to convert clients, and also because I've specialized, and I've taken the time to really understand this practice area, it's actually easier for me, it's reduced the amount of time that I spend, and I charge a flat fee, so at the beginning, when I wasn't as well-versed in this, and I was doing a bunch of other stuff, the flat fee would sometimes really kill me, but now the flat fee works to my advantage. - Why is that? - Because it takes me less time than it did three years ago, but I'm still offering the same thing, I'm just spending less time doing it. - Interesting, have you ever dug into the mindset why these, I mean, they're dentists, right? And usually doctors in general are highly specialized. - Yes. - So have you, I mean, is that why? - Yes. - Okay, so. - For sure, and dentists are a lot like lawyers, have big egos, okay? - Not as bad as orthos, but I get it. - No, well, and I do work with a lot of orthodontists too, and they do have bigger egos, just kidding. - They're probably at the, they're right below like fighter pilot, I think. - Yeah, yeah, there's, I mean, there's egos, there are egos that I have to deal with, but I am an attorney and I understand that. - Yeah, I think because they understand special, like specialization, I think they expect that from an attorney, like they, they know, well, I'm not gonna go to my brother who's a family law attorney to do my acquisition. So I think that's why. - So I'm gonna ask you something I asked Paul Yokabaitis, they're, we interviewed an attorney that runs a massive PI firm and they're, they're expanding really, really, really quickly. And in their, in his own words, he said that they're the fastest growing in the country. I don't know if that's true, but he's talking about consolidation and how in the next 10 years, there's gonna be massive consolidation. I don't know if that's true. If you think about people except Goden, he seems to have the mindset at the opposite, that's like with attorneys, it's gonna be a little bit different. Wonder what your thoughts, because you have a very specific niche. You're not gonna see some massive, you know, conglomerate of a firm that's-- - No. I just, I wonder what your thoughts on that. - Yeah, well, it's interesting. I think right now there are probably, if you asked people in the industry, so again, I'm talking about brokers and lend, and there are dental brokers and dental lenders. And if you ask them to name the attorneys that they know, they're gonna name about five, and I'm gonna be included in, in that list of five. And that's how it has been over the last four years. It hasn't really changed. There's still the same five or six attorneys or firms, and those firms aren't growing massively. They're, you know, there's some of the, you know, 'cause there's just me and I've got two other attorneys, but there are some other firms. Like, there's one in Pennsylvania and they have 10 attorneys, and that's probably like the biggest one, and they are dental specific as well. So, but that's-- - That's surprising, but that size of a firm-- - I know. - for a dental specific only. - I know, it's kind of crazy. And I mean, and they do a lot of transitions. So, I think that's the biggest one. Otherwise, I mean, you're looking at solo and small firms, and it's not growing that much. And you've got the lenders and the brokers who know who they can trust. So I don't see it growing a ton. Also, the dental industry itself is changing because like medical, a lot of dentists are selling their practices to DSOs, which are corporations. And that's what happened with the medical industry as well. So, I don't see it growing. I do potentially see it actually shrinking because of that, because there's gonna be a lot fewer dentist-to-dentist transitions. - Yeah, so we had someone on the podcast last week, and he talked about that he's got an exchange for law firms that wanna buy it so. Which, it seems like you hear more about doctors and dentists doing it than lawyers. I'm hoping that shifts at some point. - Do you see, maybe in the future, some sort of transition where you would add something like attorney buying and selling a practice? - Yeah, well, so right now, so I've been focusing on dentists, but I have had optometrist contact me, and optometrist so much like a dental practice. So optometrist vets. So I foresee something like a law firm transition being very similar to that. What's interesting is I wonder how you would value a law firm. Because there's a very specific way to value like a dental practice or an optometry practice. - So yeah, what is that? What else, understanding of that? - Yeah, it's based on a percentage of collections. And so it's not as much as you think, 'cause you look at other businesses and you're, if you're buying another business, you might be buying it at 2X the revenue, but it's the opposite with dental practices where you're probably spending around 80 to 90% of like the previous year's collections. So I mean, sometimes you're spending 100%, depending on where the practice is and things like that, but I would be interested to know how you would value a law firm. - So it's interesting with the dental. So essentially if, let's say there's, we'll just do even simple math. So if you have a million dollars in revenue, so basically you're buying it for $300,000? - Well, like if you have a million dollars in revenue in 2023, you're buying it for 80 to 90% of that. So it's like 800, 900 to 900,000. - Gotcha, I'm just interested in that. Okay, good. So I understand the math. Okay, gotcha, that makes sense. And I'm guessing that that works in dental because there's returning clients or patients. - Patients, yeah. - I guess that there could be some practice areas that would work, but I mean-- - Like with my type of practice area, I've got clients who come in and I do the thing for them, and then they're done. I mean, some of them are returning clients who are buying additional practices, but really, and I think that's kind of how it is for most law firms, unless you have like some corporate clients that just stay with you. - Yeah, interesting. I could see how you can do with PI because what I can do is I can look at our caseload, I can look at our average fee. But I can also take some of those and say, okay, we've got these bigger cases. These are, take those outside the average fee, they're worth more. I can see that. I would have a problem valuing a criminal defense firm, something like that. - For sure, yeah. - For a divorce firm, like they're getting a divorce every two years, something like that, which that's not going to happen. - Yeah. - That's interesting. Okay, so I want to shift a little bit, and you have a post on Instagram. - I'm kind of embarrassed about these posts now. Be careful what you put on the internet. - Oh, it's true. Don't be embarrassed. Don't be embarrassed. - It's not an embarrassing post. The first one I did was the only embarrassing one I've ever been doing. - So only embarrassing one I've ever posted. - You have an A post. I pulled a snippet out of an overall, there's a lot more text in it, but you said as a mom, wife, and business owner, self-care has become increasingly important. And I just wonder what, I want to get your perspective on that. - Mm, yeah. So, I mean, I think that sometimes, and I'm not even just going to say as women, I think just as high achieving people, I think we can really drive ourselves to burn out and overwhelm fast. And, you know, I want to be the best wife, and the best mom, and the best law firm owner, and the best boss. And when you do that, you're gonna end up pissing someone off because you're trying to please everybody. It's like this recovering people pleaser in me. And so, for me, I've just learned that I have to take time for myself every single day. So, I wake up in the morning, and I go to the gym, like that's my me time. And I kind of have the same routine. I go, I actually work out at a place called F45. And so, they have the workout completely planned out for me. I don't have to plan anything. I just go, and I work out, and I get to spend time with friends. And that's, that is my me time. But on top of that, like, you know, so right now we're in Charlotte for the guild mastermind. What do we actually call it? - Mastermind. - Mastermind, yeah. So, this is self-care for me because I don't have my family with me. I come and I travel, and I do this thing for me. And it, for me, it's really rejuvenating. You know, lately I've been feeling pretty burnt out. I've been really busy. This is my busy season. And, you know, the other day, I just went and got a pedicure and a manicure. And it's just nice to be able to just forget about everything, even if it's just for an hour or two, and then come back and feel rejuvenated and ready to dive in and work. - Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned the guild mastermind because the last time that post was from the last mastermind that you-- - Oh, it was. - That is, that is interesting. - Oh, that's really funny. - Yeah, that's good. The, I'll ask you about the, about the personal training. Is there the gym that you go to? Is it personal trainer or do you go, how does it work? - So, the way it is. - So, if you know orange theory, it's very similar. So, F45 orange theory, you go, they have set classes during the day, and they do have personal trainers there. And you go and you do like stations, so it's hit training. And there's a screen on the wall, it's a TV, that shows you what you're doing. And then, as you're doing it, you've got the personal trainers that are coming around and making sure that your form is right, but you're all kind of doing the same workout and rotating through stations. And so, it's not like, it's kind of brain like mindless. Like you don't have to think about it too much. I hate putting together my own workouts. - So, the reason why I ask that is, I'm like you. I just wanna go to the gym and workout. I, but I do use a trainer and they tell me what to do. They just say, you do these things. What I like about it is, they are professionals, like we're professionals. And I may not be doing that certain workout right, and they say, okay, you need to go a little deeper on that, so get more out of it. So, I brought that up. I think it, it's one of those things that's overlooked because, like in our profession, we, especially early on, you grindy, grindy, grind, and you really don't focus on the hell side of things. And it can be really detrimental. - Yeah, well, in law school, I didn't even work out at all. And I was depressed. I mean, it was also law school. So, you know, it's kind of depressing sometimes, but it makes such a difference. If I go two or three days without working out, I feel it mentally, I mean, mentally more than physically. So for me, it's actually, it's my anxiety medicine. - Yeah, no, I think it's a good way of putting it. And just, it's one of the things that if we could pass on something to listeners, like, get to take care of yourself. - 100%. - If you can't do that, you can't, you're going to. There's many sad stories. Depression of people dying of heart attacks, things like that that just, they get to take care of themselves. It's, it's. - Yeah. - I don't know if we focus on it enough. I'm going to shift gears a little bit. And you talked in our previous episode, and you've talked, you've been pretty open about this, but you lose, you lost your husband in a helicopter crash. Now how many years ago is it? - So it was exactly 20 years ago last month. - That's incredible. I didn't really, it's been that long, but it's 20 years ago. And it's, you talked about a couple of things that you learned from it. But I want to focus on the part where you said, it's, it could make you be a bit fearless. And what that did for you is, at the time, you were not a lawyer. - No, I didn't even plan on, no. Yeah, I didn't plan on being a lawyer at all. - Right, so that caused you to then go to college, become a lawyer. And my question to you though, is it, why is it, do you think, that people tend to need a tragedy like that to make a change like that? - I don't know if it's that they need a tragedy like that. I think you have some people that will, will just do it because they have that desire. I think some of us need the tragedy because we need the push, and need that understanding that life is short, and sometimes you don't really fully grasp that until you go through a tragedy, you lose someone that you love at a young age or at any age, honestly, because it really does put life into perspective. And so I think it just pushes people, it makes people realize that we only have a certain amount of time on this earth. And so you might as well just do the things that you wanna do. - Yeah, whenever you're working with these dentists that wanna sell their practice, are you getting them usually at the point where it's early on enough where they can enjoy their life or are they at the end of the road, basically? - It's so interesting with dentistry. These guys love their practices. And most of the time, I can't even tell you how many times I've had someone selling their practice, and he's like, well, my wife says it's time. And he's like, they're like 75 years old. And it's really their wife saying, okay, I need time with you now. Like our time is short, and you've gotta sell your practice. And so most of the time, it's almost too late where I don't know how much more they can enjoy. I mean, some of them can go and travel, but at 75, 80, how much are you really able to do? And so I think some of them just get so wrapped up in owning their business, owning their practice and having these relationships with their patients. And it's understandable as a firm owner, but a lot of them, it's really late in life that they're doing that. - It's kind of the reverse, and I can't remember the exact quote, but it's essentially at what point in your life did you choose to give up your dream? Or at what cost did you, like, so you essentially gave up on early? It's like the reverse of that. They give up on their dream, but it's later on in life. - Yeah, oh yeah, I think so. I think that's what it is. We've got like some music or something. There's like a motorcycle game blasting their music. I think that's why I think it was a motorcycle, yeah. - Yeah, I think we can get really wrapped up in the job and what we do. And it's so interesting that a lot of them are saying, well, it's my spouse that now wants me to sell this business. And to me, that's really telling because your spouse has watched you go through this and is like, okay, like, now it's my time. Like you and I need to have time together because you've been doing this for so many years and we haven't even been able to travel. - So, okay, let's talk a little bit about that 'cause it's interesting. When you own your own firm, your personal life, it's wrapped into your business life. - Oh yeah. - There is no way of separating. We like to say there's like this work-life balance. - That's BS. - It's total bullshit, right? And I wonder given your past experiences and given the fact that you're running this business, I wonder, like, what does that bring into your marriage whenever you're speaking to your husband and dealing with his dreams and all that, what do you bring to the marriage when it comes to that? - You know, it's interesting because, so a couple weeks ago, well, about a week ago, I had to fire my paralegal. And so I ended up replacing her, but there was a period of two weeks where I just was working until 2 a.m. every single night because I didn't have a paralegal. And he kept saying this is not sustainable. And he's right, it's not. And then a couple days later, my son, my 11-year-old, I heard him talking to his friends and they were like, hey, we wanna go to the local water park. Do you think your mom could take us? And he's like, no, she's always working. That's all she's ever doing is working. And it hit me so hard because I've got my husband saying, okay, this is not sustainable. I've got my 11-year-old saying, I'm always working. And it really can, I mean, fortunately, my husband is so patient and understanding because when he started working at the company that he's out, now he's the president of this company and he's a shareholder. But when he started there, it was very similar. For the first three years, it was night and day. I mean, he was working night and day. And he said, I just need to put in this time for this first three to four years. And then we'll be able to have more time together. And he was absolutely right. And so because he understands that, he understands what I'm going through and he's very patient, but if you don't take the time for your marriage and your kids, like number one, they notice and they'll see what you're prioritizing above them and that can be painful for them and for you. And number two, it really can start to separate you. So for my husband and me, we will always have a show that we're watching together. And I know we're just sitting in bed watching a show, but at least it's like, okay, here's the thing that we're doing and this is like every Sunday, we're gonna watch this show together right now. It's House of the Dragon. And so that's like what we're watching right now. And so we have, I mean, you know, and like we schedule out time. I was about to give away too much information, but like you have to schedule that time. - Sure, yeah. So it's something that Amy and I that we've got date night. Like that's something that we have date night. We know we have date night. Are we always able to hit that? No, but we're pretty damn good at it. - Yeah. - It's 'cause it's on our calendar. - Yeah, exactly. - It's on our calendar. So I wonder, do you go to that extent where you put things on your calendar like that? - Mm-hmm. - If it's not on my calendar, it's not happening. - Sure. - And that's everything. So, you know, it might seem like too much that like I'm putting everything on my calendar, but I just, number one, I'll forget. For, in fact, I forgot my son's soccer practice last week 'cause I just didn't have it on my calendar. But like, you know, Wednesday nights, Saturday nights, that's time for us. - That's interesting. That's great. I wanna shift gears a little bit. And I, we were talking about dreams a little bit night. So I'm gonna move this up into when I was gonna talk about it. - Okay. - You had an album that you put out in 2012. - 2012. - And I think that's awesome. That's really cool. Tell me about that. And I wanna, like, give me the details. How old were you in 2012? - Okay, let's see. In 2012, I was born in '82. So how old does that make me in 2012? - The math should be easy for us, but it's not about 30 years old. - Yes, yeah, okay, yeah. So, so before that, before I put that album out, so I actually lived in Greenville, South Carolina in my early 20s, so about 10 years prior to that. So, you know, 2002 to about 2005, but about 2000 to 2005, I lived in South Carolina. And I was playing the music scene. I was writing songs. I was co-writing with some people. I actually became acquainted with, I mean, and this was a long time ago. So people aren't going to know some of these names, but like Edwin and McCain, back in the day. No one knows that name, but. - No, I didn't know that stuff. - But anyway, he was there in Greenville. And so, I was a songwriter and I was in that scene, and I tried recording an album there, and I did, and it was garbage. And so, I really wanted to do like a fully produced album, but it cost money. And so, I would play out, and play in bars, play gigs, and then I moved back to Utah, and I played in a country band where I was the keyboard player in the backup singer, and we actually, I played with a girl named Lindsay Sterling, who is now like a violinist. She tours around the world. She dances and she plays the violin, and she sells out all of her venues. - That's impressive 'cause I can't imagine like doing either of those. That's a good same time. - And she was like aerial like acrobatics, but at the time, she played for me, and she played in this country band with me, and now she's this big star, but I realized like playing with someone else wasn't, I mean, it fulfilled some need of me just like going out and playing and performing, but I had this songwriter inside of me, and I had these songs that I wanted to get out. So, I saved up the money and ended up producing this album. And in my mind, I was like, okay, I'm gonna put this out there, and I'm gonna get a record deal, and I'm gonna be a big rock star. Well, that is not what happened. I recorded the album, I had an album release party, and I think there were like 50 people there, and like half of them were my family members 'cause we're in Utah and we've got big families out there. And so, did not get a record deal. No one, at the time that was 2012, like, I mean, my music is on iTunes and Spotify, but we still have like CDs, and I would have like one person a week like ordering the CD, and I have to go and mail it, and it was kind of a pain in the butt. - Something a real pain in the butt. - Yeah. - Is that how I visualize it? - No, it was terrible. And so then I'm like, well, I just, I don't even wanna do that anymore. People just listen to it on Spotify or Apple Music. So, it, honestly for me, it was also an awakening where it's like, okay, if you wanna do this, do it because you love it. Like, it's not going to get you to where you're hoping. It's going to get you. The music industry is much harder than being a lawyer. Like, it was so much harder being a musician than it was going to law school and becoming an attorney, because a lot of it is luck. Most of it is who you know. Some of it is what you're willing to compromise and give up, because when I was in South Carolina, I actually went and I met with a producer down in Atlanta who had produced Madonna at the time, and he was like, we can make you big, can you dance? And I was like, I mean, yeah, do I wanna dance? No, and he's like, okay, well, if you can dance and you can sing pop songs and you can dress like a pop star, we'll make you a pop star. Well, that is not what I wanted. So, I wasn't even willing to compromise and do that. - It's interesting to me that it does seem to me from the outside looking in that that industry does try to take who you are and change you to someone else. - Yeah, absolutely. I wonder what lessons you learned from that experience that you've been able to bring into your practicing law? - Well, I think probably the first and foremost is confidence in order to get up on stage in front of thousands of people, you have to have some level of confidence. And it doesn't mean that I didn't like get stage fright or I didn't feel nervous. I still do, you know, I'll still perform every once in a while for fun and I still like get the butterflies and I still get nervous. But it's helped me have a lot of confidence and I think I've been able to bring that into my practice and just know, you know what? Like, you might screw up, you might mess something up and that's okay, that you just stay confident and know that you fix it and move on. I think the other thing, let me, you know, there's actually, so there are a lot of lawyers who are musicians. And part of it is, I think, again, it's like a high achieving thing. You know, we all maybe played an instrument growing up and became lawyers because we were high achieving. And, but I think knowing that, you know, if you just practice something and keep doing something a lot, you're going to be an expert at it at some point. And so that's, especially with niching down, like with dental transitions, it's like, if I just keep doing this, I'm going to be an expert in this at some point and it's the same thing with playing the piano and singing is just practicing the same thing over and over again. - I do like that idea of, you know, getting better and a lot of it is just doing the same thing over and over again. So I think that's a pretty valuable lesson. I'm going to ask you about resilience because you tragically lost your husband. Your music career didn't go the way you had planned. And so I wonder what, does that make you more like fear the future? Does it make you stronger? So what do you, just tell me about that. - I think failure is such a good thing. And I remember my mom saying this to me like when I was a teenager and she said, you know, I want my kids to fail at things because it makes us stronger. It really does make you a better person. And I think the same thing for my kids, you know, and you want your kids to do all the things that they want to do. And my son tried out for a club soccer team and didn't make it. And honestly, I wasn't that sad 'cause these sports now are so-- - They travel all over the place. - It's crazy. - It's crazy. - Yeah. - But, and it was sad, I was sad for him, but also I was like, you know what? He needs to understand that life can be hard and you just move on. And it actually, I just think that's such a good lesson that, you know, we can get knocked down. And some of it is gonna be our fault, the things that we bring on ourselves. And some of it is gonna be circumstances that we can't control. And so it's whatever we do with that that matters. And, you know, you just gotta get back up and just keep going. - So tell me where's that mindset come from? - Because, I mean, even we both know a lot of people that something bad has happened to them and they just shut down and give up, right? They, it's something that me, back in Amy, were talking about it at lunch, where there are sometimes people, something bad happens and they just give up. They, they will never strive because they always have that excuse, right? - Oh yeah. - So I have family members who are like that because I think it's easy to get in the victim mentality to where it's like, well, that's it. Like, everything is everyone else's fault and there's nothing I can do about it. - Why didn't that happen to you? You have plenty of excuses. - I think for me, well, number one, it's not my personality. But, but I also just think, well, you know, I do have faith in a higher power. And I, you know, I understand there are a lot of listeners that aren't going to agree with that. But, but I feel like there has been something that has helped push me along. Now, if I'm being honest, when my husband first died, I was in a downward spiral. So I was playing bars with musicians who were doing drugs and drinking a lot, staying up a lot and, and behaving in a lot of like self-destructive behaviors. And I started down that path. And so, you know, so I, you know, I was drinking and, and trying things that, you know, trying drugs that I hadn't tried before. And it did not bring happiness at all. And it, it brought a, like, a lot more chaos into an already chaotic situation. So I was able to step back and see that that's not the life I wanted to live. But honestly, I do feel whether it was the universe or God or whatever it was that pushed, that helped push me past that to help get me over that, to see that that is not the life I wanted to live. And that wasn't the life that was meant for me to live. - That's good to say, Wix. I want to ask you about the happiness thing. There is a professor that was on modern wisdom podcast. It's by Chris Williamson. You ever watched it? - No. - Okay. So it's great, you should check it out. But he had a Harvard professor on by the name of Arthur Brooks. And Arthur said, there's no such thing as being happy. It's just the constant pursuit of becoming happy. But with that, and one of the problems with the younger generations, and he picked on the younger generations, I think it applies to everybody. - Yeah. - Like we think that happiness is a destination. - Right. - Whenever really it's a sliding scale. You've got bad days, you've got great days, and it's kind of goes back and forth. So I wonder what your thoughts are on that, because that was an interesting thought, and something I hadn't thought about before. - You know, that is really interesting. And there's another podcast that I think it's called the Happiness Project. Anyway, that actually explores this as well. And I agree. I think sometimes we get in this habit of being like, okay, when I'm done with this client, things are gonna be better. When I'm done with this project, things are gonna be better. And that's never the case. I think part of becoming an adult is just realizing like there's never going to be one thing that ends, and then all of a sudden you're golden forever. So I think it's more of just being able to be present in the moment that you're in, and enjoy the moment that you're in, and know that like tomorrow there might be a super shitty thing that happens, and that's okay. I love this quote that my mom says, whenever I'm feeling down, or like I have a really, really crappy day, she'll be like, okay, today is your day. Feel it, you can feel it today, and then tomorrow is someone else's day. And so it's just time to move on, and then just continue to just be present and enjoy the life that you're living in that moment. - I think that's good. Why do you think, why do you think lawyers struggle with that so much though? Oh, this is a really good question. And we had to read a book in law school, and I think it was called The Happy Lawyer, or, not, I could be wrong, I can't remember, but it's about this. And I think because the people who tend to get into this profession can be high-strung individuals, can be highly anxious individuals, and not, I mean, I'm speaking very generally, obviously, but there is a certain type of person that chooses to enter this profession and work hard at it. You know, you've got some of the lawyers who are just like, I just wanna work for a nonprofit, I wanna work no more than 40 hours a week, and frankly, I look at those people, and they look really happy. And they look like they really enjoy what they do, they're probably not making much money, but that's okay for some people. So I think part of it is this, like, incessant need to just constantly be reaching for more, and reaching for the next best thing, and, you know, making more money. And frankly, like, it's a struggle, it's something that I struggle with, 'cause it's like, okay, do I want to, you know, I know that I could make a lot more money doing what I'm doing. But is it worth the time that I'm gonna spend? Is it worth the effort and the time away from my family? And that's a struggle that I think we all have to figure out for ourselves, like, at what point, at what point is it too much? And I think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves. And, you know, I know that, like, as a mom, I put pressure on myself, as a woman, and a female in an industry that is highly male-dominated still in Utah, it's still very male-dominated. - It's interesting, okay, I didn't realize that. - Yeah, very much so. You know, I think if we continue to put that pressure on ourselves, like, how can you be happy when you're just constantly, like, reaching for the next best thing and not living in the moment? So part of it is a personality thing, the type of personalities that flock to this type of career. And then part of it is just not learning to be present. I think, for me, meditation has helped a ton with that. So I've implemented a meditation practice, and I try and do it every day. I don't always do it every day. But when I do, I just find that I just am better at being present. - I hear people talking about meditation quite a bit. I've struggled with it. I mean, what is it about the meditation that helps you so much? - So for me, it's about removing everything outside of me and just learning to just be present. And understand, like, what I'm feeling in my body, like, hearing the things around me and just being where I am. And I think when you learn how to do that, when you're in the middle of a stressful situation at work, you can use those tools to get back to that place. So when it's like, when I start feeling anxious, I use those tools to bring that anxiety in and just center and feel present. - Have you ever had that feeling, so you drive home and so you leave work, you drive home, you get home, and you don't remember anything about the drive home. Do you ever have that? - Oh, yeah, all the time. - So I feel like you mentioned being present, and I feel like many of us, and I'm guilty of this too, where I feel like sometimes we do that with life, where we'll, you know, it, you know, beginning of the year, we're thinking, okay, this is gonna be my year, right? You know, it's February and you're like, what happened? Like, so, like, how do we avoid that? 'Cause that's tough. - I don't know. I mean, I wish I had the answer because I'm not the greatest at it. I think, again, practice. And I do, like, again, practicing meditation, practicing self-care and, you know, making sure that we're making time for our family. And, you know, kind of the things that we've already talked about, I think you have to do those things outside of the career. I think it's so easy to just get caught up in the busyness of life. And that's when you just kind of black out and you're just going and, like, all of a sudden you turn around and your kid's 15 and kissing a girl and getting mono. So, you know, I'd like-- - I've heard mono's terrible, never had it, but-- - Oh, he just got over it. It was like a month long of, but, but good for him for kissing a girl. - Hey, congrats to him. Nice job. - Yeah. - That was happy for him. - Absolutely, that's what we have at a loss. So, let me ship you a little bit. - When you started your firm in 2020, actually, you know what? Let's back up a little bit more. - Okay. - What year did you start your career as a lawyer? - 20, well, 2017. - All right, 2017. Pass the bar and you're like, okay. If you could remember, what was success? What would it look like back of that? And what did you think it was? - Well, I wanted to be a litigator. And so-- - And what did you think a litigator was? I'm talking about that, too, 'cause-- - Well, so I was a paralegal for a litigation firm for eight years. So, I felt like I had a good understanding of it, but I really didn't. So, what I thought it was was, well, I thought it was a lot more time in court in front of a judge. And so, I thought it was more of a performance, you know? So, I thought, like, I'm on stage all the time. I can perform. So, I'll really like being a litigator. Well, it's not anything like that. - Not at all. - Not even at all. And so, when, for me, I passed the bar and I'm like, oh, I'm gonna be a litigator. And people are just gonna think I'm so awesome and they're gonna think I perform so well in court. Well, here's one thing. If you're five feet tall and you're a blonde woman in Utah, like, it's, I understand that appearance is not supposed to matter. But this was pre-COVID. And so, everything was still all in person. And a lot of that practice area is about intimidation, manipulation, dominance. And I didn't win in any of those categories. - Well, so it's funny, we'll go back to my question to say it, but, like, I'm a firm believer. I don't like WebEx for, like, that's, we don't use it. 'Cause I, if I'm in person with the judge, I can massage the situation and I know I can get a better result for my client. So I think you're 100% right about that. But back to you, back to you, 'cause I don't wanna get you off too far track. But we're talking about success, go ahead. - Yeah, so for me, it looked like winning a bunch of cases. Like, when it came down to it, being able to stand in front of a judge and win the case. And, yeah, that was nothing. - And what point did you realize that was not what it was? - So COVID had just hit. And I'm a baby lawyer. I'm a baby litigator. And my, the senior partner who was on this case with me, it was a dispute with an HOA. So our clients were the homeowners. They had an issue with their foundation. They're trying to get the HOA to pay for it, trying to determine was it like a common area issue. And ultimately, so COVID had just hit, it's like our second deposition that we're doing via Zoom, not deposition, it was a mediation. So it was our second mediation that we're doing via Zoom. And my clients, let's say, we end up getting to the conclusion that they're only going to get this certain amount from this. So the HOA is like, you know what, we're gonna settle. We're gonna settle this case. So me, I'm like, great, this is a win. And they're like, but, and we're negotiating back and forth. And then they throw out the number. And my clients are like, well, that's in addition to our attorney fees that we're paying you, right? - So how it works. - No, no, and at this point, my senior partner's on like a family vacation. And so it's just me. And I said, no, that's not it. And anyway, they got so mad, and we're in this mediation on Zoom, and like I am flustered, and they start yelling at me and calling me names, and they storm out of the law firm, screaming obscenities, walking out of the hall. And I'm saying they're like, we just won. Like I just, I just got you some money. And it was more than what the attorney fees were, but it wasn't enough to pay for the damage to the house, which is, you know. - One of the most frustrating things for me and what we do is we get a fantastic offer for our clients. Fantastic offer. - Yeah. - And I'm talking like, we've hit a grand slam. - Oh yeah. - And they think it's not even close to enough. - Right. - And, you know, I was talking to my friend, she's a lawyer in some other state. We have a case, we're recently dealing with on this. It is so frustrating. So, I mean, do you ever encounter something like that in your dental practice work? - Occasionally, but not as much. And so, you know, 'cause I did some PI too, and it was the same, you know, it's like a fender bender. And I'm like, I just got you $6,000, and they're like, that's garbage. And I'm like, no, you don't understand. - Yeah. - Like, you had a fender bender, and this is good. And with transitions, like, the goal is to get to the end of the sale of the practice and to have both people be happy and to continue to have a relationship, because, you know, there's a transition period. You've got the seller handing over the practice to the buyer, so you want them to continue to have a relationship. And yeah, I'll have, occasionally, I'll have a disgruntled client that doesn't think I got them the best deal. And, you know, there's some negotiation points. Maybe they're buying the building and the practice, and they feel like they're paying too much for it, or they feel like they had to concede on a number of things. It doesn't happen quite as much, but I think you're gonna find those personalities in every practice area with every kind of client. And so, I think it's just learning how to deal with that kind of personality in general. - No doubt. All right, so I'm gonna loop back, because what I ultimately wanted to get to was success. When you started the firm in 2020, what did it look like, and how was that different from reality? - Well, honestly, for me, because I had no idea like how much I could make as a solo firm owner. And so for me, I was like, well, if I could just, like if I could bring in revenue $100,000 a year, then that would be good. And surprisingly, I was able to bring in a lot more than that. - You've been very successful, yeah. - Yeah, and so for me, it actually has almost been the opposite where what I thought success was, like I could shoot a lot higher, and I didn't realize that I could continue to shoot higher. But then at some point, there's like diminishing returns, where it's like, you just keep shooting, and then like, what are you getting back? - So interesting, 'cause I wanted to ask you about that. So what was more surprising to you, that you were able to get to that number so fast, or is it the challenges that you face once you get to that next level? - Oh yeah, that's it, for me, yeah. Because I had people say, oh no, you'll get to that number quickly. And I just didn't necessarily believe them, 'cause I'm like, you don't know what the hell you're talking about, you're not a firm owner. And so for me, it's, you know, like where I'm at now, where we're comfortable, we're making good money, but then it's like, you know, hiring and firing people, and managing people, like that has been harder than I could have imagined. - Wow, how so? - Well, I've gone through like four paralegals, and all for like different reasons they haven't worked out. And some of them are really good, and they just quit and went and did something else. - Let me ask you a pretty pointed question. Where have you been at fault in these situations? Where's the trend? - So for me, it's setting expectations, managing expectations, and following up with KPIs. That's where I haven't, you know, for the first few I wasn't as consistent. And so, you know, I think I've been a lot better, especially with this new hire and this new paralegal, where I've really said, okay, here are my expectations. And the very first day I said, here's how you can win with the firm, and this is exactly what I expect of you. And on top of that, here's a KPI that we're going to give you every single month, so you know exactly what I'm looking for and what I'm looking at, and we're going to go over it every month. And, you know, had I set, had I done the same thing about setting those expectations, the other thing is, you know, I don't love conflict. I don't, I mean, I know there are some people who love, I don't know how many people love it. There are some people who love it. - There are some, there's plenty. - And because I like the employee and I, you know, I want them to know they are doing a good job, but they could be improving on this. I think I'm not as direct. And so I'll say, you know, hey, you did this wrong, and then we kind of leave it at that and don't revisit it. And I think for me as a manager, I could be better, you know, each month or every time we do our quarterly, however often, you know, we do a review by saying, you know, here are the things that I think you could work on. And being more direct about that, because when I fired this paralegal, you know, two weeks ago, she said, and it's kind of funny because she said, I had no indication whatsoever that this was coming. And I was like, really? Because in my mind, we had talked about these things and we had gone over these things. And still, she said, I had no indication that this was coming. - Yeah, so there's a lot of advice that people tell you, oh, your employees know. - Yeah. - That's not always true. We've had multiple people that just didn't see it coming. And it's interesting, there's all these business principles and all these thoughts and these quotes and these ideas and people, oh, this is the way. And I think a lot of this is nonsense. - Oh, yeah, I do too. And I mean, I had been looking to replace this girl for six months. And so I do think kind of at the end, like the last two months, I kind of gave up. Like, because I already knew I was going to replace her. And so I think by me not communicating with her, she just was like, I'm doing a good job. And she wasn't and I was constantly, you know, in the words of my associate attorney, I was up her ass all the time, but she didn't think I was, she didn't think that. And so I think some of it is her fault, but I do think that I'm at fault as well for not clearly communicating. - Yeah, there is a lot of danger in that phase where you know you're going to terminate them, but you kind of have to hold on to them. But then you can get into this complacency where they just never go anywhere. And so there is a lot of danger in that. - Oh, that's been the last six months in my practice. - Yeah, that's a tricky one. And so there's some that there's this lesson that I've learned over the last year or so, where if I'm feeling a certain way, and it could be as simple as someone says your name wrong, and you're like, I can just, I can not correct it and just be it. But the lesson is, no, my name's Tyson. You know, it's not Travis. I get Travis all the time for some weird reason. - Oh, as an Ashley, I get Amanda, Amber, yeah. - So whenever, it doesn't matter if you're talking to an employee, a friend, whatever. No, you say, nope, that's not okay. Or like, especially with employees, you have to be. And this is, I've gotten better at this, but I've been a people pleaser, you know? So being direct with them and setting the boundary, setting the guidelines is so important. - Yeah, and you talk about boundaries. And I think this is really important because I think specifically with this, this most recent paralegal, I think she thought we were like friends, like, you know, because like I got a little, like we got too friendly to where she felt comfortable, like being super sassy with me as her boss. And even my associate attorney was like, man, she is sassy. And she's like, I would never talk to my boss that way. And I just let it happen. And I think as a boss, you know, like can't be the Michael Scott of bosses. And so I think you do have to set the boundaries with employees, I'm the boss, you're the employee. It doesn't mean you have to like be a hard-ass or be rude or act like you're better than them. But I think she just felt like we were friendlier than we were. - Where do you think that line is? Because that is an interesting one. And I also agree with you because I know where our employees, it's, and we've gone through this transition where we wanted to get a lot of A players, we wanted to replace what we had before. And there's a significant difference in the culture. It's significantly better where we have fun. We all get along, but there's also this professionalism where they, you know, I don't ask for them to call me boss, but you know, they'll call me boss. Things like that where, again, I don't ask for that. But there is like this, they show me this respect. I show them respect. Those lines are never really blurred. So where, but where is that line? 'Cause it can be tricky. - You know, I don't know that I found it because I like to be liked. And so I don't think I've quite found where the line is. And it's something that I have to work on personally and figure out, like at what point are we getting too friendly to where they feel like they can be sassy and talk back to me? And, you know, when I'm giving them feedback, they can argue with me. And I just, I haven't quite found that yet. - Well, if you find it, let me know, it is tough. All right, so let me read as another Instagram post. It was through July of 2020. So we're in the middle of the pandemic, but we're all just doing the very best we can. We all have different dreams and goals. We parent differently. We have different hobbies and talents. We have different beliefs and perspectives and life experiences. And that's all beautiful and powerful. - Did I write that? - You did. - Oh, that's amazing. - And what I find interesting about it is it encapsulates practicing law because I know you didn't intend it that way, but there is no right way. There is several different ways. We're all just trying to get through this. So I wanted to get your perspective on it, even though you may not remember writing that. - Gosh, I mean, but I remember that time so well because it was a very divisive time, I think like for our nation in general. - Was that? - Yeah, it was super weird, really divisive. We were trying to learn how to do, you know, I'm like homeschooling my kids, which I never wanted to do. That was never a thing that I wanted to do. I was July, so they were in school. But like, and I think you have to, I mean, you have to let people do and be who they are, you know, do the things that they're gonna do and be who they are and accept that and accept that not everybody's going to believe the same way that you are and they're not going to do things the same way that you're going to do them. And, you know, especially right now, like we're in an election year, we just had an assassination attempt on a presidential candidate. And, you know, whoever is going to win the presidential election, it's going to cause even more division than there already is if that's even possible. And I think if you step back and you look at it and you just say, it's so great that we can just, we can do what we want to do. Like we live in a country where like as a woman and as a mom, I can be a lawyer and I can own my own business and I can practice whatever religion or not practice religion. And I think that is beautiful. And so I think, you know, if we allow everyone else to have that, you know, I mean, I don't have to agree with someone's political beliefs but I could still love them as a person and a human. And honestly, COVID like really helped me be a lot more tolerant. And where I think it kind of did the opposite for some people, but for me, I just, like I just had to learn to be tolerant of people who didn't feel and think the way that I did. - All right, so the last question I ask you is going to be, it may seem out of left field after that line of questioning but we were talking about, you know, dreams and everything before. And what would it take, this is maybe a tough one but what would it take to convince you to give it all up and walk away from your practice? - Well, I would need to know that I could continue to live the lifestyle that I'm living now. So it would, like, I'm in a really good position where my husband has a great job. I could walk away right now and we would actually be fine. Like we would be able to pay our bills and, you know, continue to pay our mortgage and live in our home. And so I'm in a different position than some people find themselves in and which is, and I'm like, I am going to acknowledge as a really privileged thing to say. So like, yeah, it's annoying and privileged. So I think for me, it would take knowing that my family would be taken care of but that I am doing something else that I really love. So if, you know, I already did the music thing. I did it for almost 20 years and it was fun to do it at that time. I think there's a time and season for everything. And so some people say, like, what if you were offered a job to go and play the keyboard for a touring band? For me, I'm like, I kind of already did that. So, and it was fun, but I don't know that I'm in my forties. I don't know that I want that anymore. And so it would take, it would take knowing that whatever I'm doing is fulfilling for me and my family. - So it's interesting that you said, 'cause actually, this is where I wanted to go. It took me a second to remember the person that talked about this, but Eric Weinstein talks about this and he talked, I don't know if you know who this, but he was talking about how what we should actually be teaching kids instead of teaching them to follow our passion. It's actually to figure out what you're really good at and do that thing. So even if you're not passionate about it, figure out what you're good at and do that. Don't worry about following your passion because what happens most of the time, and I do not intend to bring this up and talk about this, but it is interesting that you said that because let's use music for a second, right? And I'm sure you were great at it, I'm not saying that you weren't, but there was a point where you had to give that up and then you're good at being a lawyer, you're great at being that. So I wonder what your thoughts are because many times people follow their passion and they fail, and we talked about failure a little bit, but sometimes it can be really, really devastating and it's more devastating than it is helpful. So I wonder what you think about that 'cause that's something that's interesting 'cause I know I'm guilty of telling my kids, "Hey, follow your passion, what do you really wanna do?" - Yeah, well, you said it's Eric Weinstein. Oh my gosh. And maybe I've heard him on a podcast before because I remember hearing about this and 100% agreeing with it because I think for me, when music became work, it was no longer fun. And so, meaning when I first started college, I had no intention of being a lawyer. I actually went in on a music scholarship and realized I hated it so much because number one, I hated playing classical music on the piano, hated it. And it was just so much work and I couldn't do it for fun. And so, I think some people find when they follow their passion and then it just becomes work. And so I still play music as a hobby, but I don't do it for work. And so it's a separation where I can still have something to do that I enjoy. But I also think following your passion could be a terrible idea because what if you're passionate about singing but you really suck? Like what if you're one of those people that go in American Idol and like, why aren't these people's parents telling them that they're terrible? Like, do your parents hate you? And so-- - So I wanted to tell you the truth. - Yeah. And so just like because you're passionate about something doesn't mean you're necessarily good at it, what I do know, like for me, I'm good at connecting with people and I'm a hard worker in general. So whatever I do, like, I work hard at it. And so I think you can find, you can find a little bit, if you're doing something that you're good at, you're going to eventually like learn to like it. And I think it's a very, I'm an elder millennial, maybe. Like I'm a zenial because I'm like right there in between Gen X and a millennial. - I don't like to admit it either. - Yeah, I think we're around this image. And so, like for me, I remember people just being like, it's such a millennial thing to follow your passion. Like, if you don't love what you're doing at work, then quit your job and do something you love. And for me, as like more on the Gen X side, I'm like, well, that's bull crap. Like, if you're doing work work and then find something you love to do and do that on the side. - Do you know the study about the kids and getting cookies for playing chess? You know the study? - No. - So there's a study about these kids that were playing chess. And what they would do is, the ones that would win, they would give them a cookie. And what they found was, is the ones that they did that, they stopped playing 'cause they lost their joy for it. So when you were mentioning the, you know, getting paid for it, it became a job, there is a lot to that. And I do think it does become dangerous. And when you're told that you want to be a litigator, you start making money, I do think that that changes things and it does make it a little bit more difficult to follow our passion. So what's in with for the young lawyers that they want to have this beautiful career and do all these great things and or new law firm owners, what advice would you give to them so that they can do an excellent job but then also follow their passion at the same time without ruining it? - So I would say, don't listen to any of your professors in law school because they're all going to tell you to go to big law or do a clerkship. And I mean, I'm not saying that nobody's happy in big law. What I am saying is that most of my friends that followed that advice, like either went away from big law or they're just working crazy hours and maybe some of them like it and they don't but that there are so many things you can do as an attorney, you know, 'cause I just thought, a litigation is the way, right? This is like, this is what you have to do to be a successful lawyer. And like it was sexy too, right? Like, oh yeah, I'm a litigator. - It's all the movies and shows. - Right, like it seems to suit everyone's like, oh, are you like suits? And I was like, yeah, which nobody, like I freaking hate that show. I actually love the show. I just hate what people perceive. - The magicians. - My career is. And so I think exploring, if you would have told me five years ago that I would be helping dentists buy and sell their practices, I would be like that, it sounds like the most boring thing ever. But I love what I do. I love what I do. I love my clients. And I love that I'm my own boss. And I don't have five senior partners telling me five different things, like five ways to draft a freaking complaint. And so explore as many areas as you can. Don't necessarily listen to your law schools that are telling you clerkships and big law are the only way to go. 'Cause, and they'll all tell you not to go solo. No one in law school was ever like, yeah, you should start your own firm. And, but it was number one, the best decision that I ever made. And it's taught me so much and I've grown so much. And I really love it. And I love it way more than being a litigator and working for someone else. - Thanks Ashley. - Oh, thank you. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) [BLANK_AUDIO]
