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Talkin' Ball with Pat Leonard
Mailk Nabers, Giants players vent in explosive locker room after Bucs blowout
[MUSIC PLAYING] This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, fiscally responsible, financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are the things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates, potential savings will vary, not available in all states or situations. [MUSIC PLAYING] All right, everybody. Pat Leonard here from the New York Daily News and the Talking Ball with Pat Leonard podcast on the Believe Network. And this is Talking Ball Post Game Live from MetLife Stadium. And who, boy, do we have a lot to talk about? Delayed here a little bit in jumping on the live podcast because what an explosive locker room it was for the Giants after this devastation, this demolition by the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, 30 to 7. And it felt worse than that. Malik neighbors fed up. It appears with the play calling and the game planning on offense, implying that it's on Brian Deball, said it's not the quarterback. It's the same as when Daniel Jones was here. Dexter Lawrence, Brian Burns, talking about how the team was soft today, that the tackling was horrendous, that they were terrible, Darius Slayton, saying everyone was bad, commentary on the coaching staff where players consistently were asked about the coaches, whether they're still confidence and buy-in. Some answers, yes, some answers, hesitation. And then half comments between, I think so, I hope so. Dexter Lawrence's comment about that was he was asked, is there still a strong connection between the coaches and players? He said, of my knowledge, I think so. I mean, I don't know. We could have more accountability all around, but to my knowledge, I don't see any disconnect. Brian Burns, what he said was, I would like to think so. He said, everybody has all the right answers, but it's not showing up on the field. So usually that translates to whatever the message is, even if people are listening to it. It's not translating, it's not providing results. And that's where it brings us to where we are today, which is at two and nine, oh and six at home, six straight losses for the New York Giants. And in my opinion, as if you are a subscriber here to talking ball with Pat Leonard on the YouTube channel, PL on NFL, if you read me in the New York Daily News, if you've been joining us for all of these conversations throughout the season, you know that I have been telling you from the get go that this was a season that Brian Dable was coaching for his job, that I thought that Joe Shane's job was on the table at risk as well if this turned into a worst case scenario and that I also believe this was going to become a worst case scenario. I feel like that's where we are right now. I believe that the locker room is not following and listening to and hearing the message that they are getting from Brian Dable and the coaching staff. You can see that not translating on the field. John Marrah passed us in the hallway on the way to the locker room walking briskly late in the fourth quarter. He said he didn't have anything to say as far as no comment and he said, hope you guys have a happy Thanksgiving. Obviously, then Thanksgiving, the Giants will be back on the field. America will be subjected to a New York Giants football game against the Dallas Cowboys in Arlington, Texas and who knows how bad it could get from here. In my mind, there's a good chance that on a short week you're retaining the operation as is. You play that game on Thursday and assuming you lose that game, then there's a good chance that coming out of that Thanksgiving game I would think that firings and a new coach on the sideline could be on the table as early as that. That's not information, that's not a leak or somebody telling me that that's going to happen. That is me putting two and two together and projecting it myself based on the information I've had. Based on how explosive this locker room was, how fed up the players are, obviously the elephant in the room is that Daniel Jones, the quarterback of the Giants, the franchise quarterback, while the fan base and the team obviously ended up fed up with his inability to get the job done, you heard players this week not support that move. You heard players say they still felt Daniel Jones was the best quarterback for the team. And even though obviously the offense wasn't looking good enough or good at times when Daniel Jones was in the game and they were still the lowest scoring team in the late coming in, we saw it look even worse. In this game, once Tommy DeVito goes in, as Dexter Lawrence described it, defense was for Buccaneers was blitzing the shit out of him early on trying to take advantage of a new quarterback and a new system. Obviously we know he's the third stringer being promoted to number one. So that puts Tommy in a bad spot as well. DeVito took some monster hits in this game. The Giants offense did the defense, no favors. The defense did the offense, no favors. Debo also coaching for his job, going for fourth and one on his own 37 in the first quarter down seven, nothing. The Giants don't get it. The Buccaneers can feel goal to go up 10 nothing. And on they go late in the fourth quarter, Debo calling timeout down 30 to seven on the final drive of the game, trying desperately to get more points on the board to make it look a little bit better 'cause 30 to 13 or 30 to 14 or 30 to 15 looks better on the stat sheet than 30 to seven. But DeVito's final passes sail over Darius Layton's head and we are where we are at this point. And where we are, in my opinion, is at the end. Regardless of when John Marra and Steve Tisch make this decision, the amount of comments and the frustration coming out of the locker room, Dexter Lawrence saying that his frustration is probably at a 10 out of 10. And even Lawrence, frankly, not showing the same kind of finish on some plays that you're used to seeing, just the frustration showing on the field. There was a moment today when Dexter, after the Buccaneers scored one of their touchdowns in the first half, John's over to the sideline and was so frustrated. I asked him about it after the game. He said he was frustrated and trying to keep composed. He was standing by himself with his head, his hands on both sides of his helmet, rocking back and forth, seemingly, you know, either repeating something to himself, a mantra, or just trying to take a moment to kind of zero in on, like, listen, I'm just here, I'm nowhere else, block out the noise and try to compose himself. But it was the clear picture of somebody who was really struggling to keep it together. And, you know, these guys who are the leaders in the locker room, the Dexter Lawrence's, the Brian Burns, they're trying to put a good face on that they're trying to put a better face on it. But, you know, you saw from neighbors to Lawrence, to Burns, to Slaton, to Jermaine, to Luminor. A lot of comments in this locker room today that point towards a team that is no longer responding. There were guys playing and putting good football on tape. A guy who stuck out to me was Michael McFadden on defense. Funny enough, even last year, remember, like at the start of the season, when they weren't ready to play for that game in Dallas, it was like Michael was the only guy ready to play, very interesting, playing through a heel injury as well in this game. But, you know, just discouraging and classic giant stuff in the sense that in the second half, they finally get a drive going. They finally target Malik neighbors, who said, essentially, like, why are you targeting me for the first time in the second half when we're down 30 to nothing? What am I gonna do then? He said that. Neighbors completely fed up. But you target him, you move the ball, you get the ball down in the red zone. Dave Ball calls a wildcat to Tyrone Tracy Jr. who fumbles, and the Buccaneers recover. So, even in a moment where it feels like the Giants might build something, they shoot themselves in the foot, they make a mistake. This is what bad football teams do, right? Sometimes at the blowout, sometimes on a certain drive, you're winning on certain downs. And then it simply comes down to, you know, that in the end, bad teams in close situations, whether it's close games, close situations, whatever, they make the wrong play, they make a bad play, they make a mistake, a critical mental error, whatever it is. It was so easy, though, for Baker Mayfield and the Buccaneers offense today. The Giants have volunteered pass rush now. Brian Burns, Dexter Lawrence, Cave on Tippito, those guys, Tippito back in the lineup. The Giants pass rush has one sack in the last three games. No sacks today of Baker Mayfield. Mayfield's final stat line for this game. 294 passing yards, and 29 rushing yards and a rushing touchdown. Bucky Irving, Rashad White and Sean Tucker, all with rushing touchdowns there. And then obviously, be remiss if I didn't mention Baker Mayfield. And this is really the icing on the cake. Baker Mayfield with the Tommy Cutlets, the double DeVito, as I call it, taunting the entire MetLife Stadium crowd, potentially standing for his friend and former Giants Sterling Shepherd, who had five catches for 16 yards in this game, dropped what could have been a touchdown pass to rub it in the Giants' faces. But really, that was Mayfield taunting the Giants as a joke, taunting them for getting rid of good players, good people, guys like Saquan Barkley, Sterling Shepherd. Mayfield, obviously, not a fan of Daniel Jones, as he's been on the record saying that. But to me, I viewed this as bigger than just him celebrating a touchdown, or even mocking DeVito personally. I think he was mocking the spectacle, the circus, and the joke that the Giants were as an opponent on this day. Thanks for sticking it out with me. Thanks for being here, Giants and NFL fans, and we could talk more than just the Giants dismay, dysfunction, and dismal reality. If you want to know what I think is going to happen here, I think there's a good chance on a short week that nothing happens prior to the Cowboys game, but after that, all bets are off. I would say that's probably a fair assumption. Really hard to, if you own a team like this, and you watch a performance like this in front of your home crowd, and you're windless at home, and you can't score points, and you're a little lower scoring team in the league, and I heard my colleague, Connor Hughes, over at SNY, he was doing some research on the Giants' inability to score, and he calculated that their points per game average, which is now below 15 at 14 to change, is, at the moment, it would be the lowest average scoring for a Giants offense in the last 25 years. So the roster isn't good enough, the play calling and the coaching isn't good enough, and so that's where we stand. So with that, I really appreciate everybody who's here. I see some super chats rolling in. Those comments and questions will be addressed first. Thank you so much for being here with me here and talking about live with Pat Leonard. Good reminders to start here. Let's see, Patrick Evans, for example, says, "Hit that sub and like button." Really appreciate you saying that, Patrick, that's a good reminder. Please subscribe. Please also hit the like button while we are live. This tells the YouTube algorithm to send out to the airwaves to people on YouTube, the Giants fans everywhere. If you don't know what we're doing here, we do post game lives after every Giants game from the game, on the off chance that I'm not at the game, like the Germany game, I'm still going live after the game, working the phones, working my sources, telling you what I see and know. And at least this season have been pretty good at projecting and predicting what's coming next and reporting on injuries and where these players stand as a whole. Obviously, the most important thing is bringing to you what I hear and see from the locker room, right? Because that is what speaks most to, you know, exactly where this team stands, whether they're going to be able to pick themselves up and play differently and give a different type of, let's call it effort, right? Now, Malik neighbors said they were soft as F. Dexter Lawrence called them soft today and Brian Burns said, "Everybody was bad in this game. "It's about pride. "It's about one, two, you know. "There was a lot of frustration. "Never, you know, haven't seen frustration "in their locker room like this in a long time." Darius Slaton, I thought at an interesting comment about the Daniel Jones, you know, did the locker room where they're lingering effects from that situation. And he said, you know, he doesn't think that's the reason they came out and got beat this way, but he said at the end of the day, DJ wasn't on the field today. He had no effect on how well the people that were out there did their jobs. And at the end of the day, the people who played today did a terrible job and that's why we got beat. So in other words, don't connect this man's name to this terrible performance is what he was saying there and hard to disagree with Darius Slaton given everything that we saw. So I'm going to tell you guys about our sponsors really quickly and then I am going to get to the super chats first and continue through the queue. Looks like our first one is going to be Chris Spires and then Steve Keys and then DH. So I'm going to get to all of those first. Before that, I'm going to tell you about our sponsor MyBookie. So here's what you guys got to do. Please, if you support this channel and you love what we do, please open an account on MyBookie. Go to the link in my profiles, whether it's PL and NFL, my accounts on Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, Threads or on Twitter, P LeonardNYDN. Click on that link, make your first deposit and if you use the promo code PATSPIX, you get a 100% match on your first deposit of $50 or more all the way up to $1,000 plus a $10 casino chip to play within the MyBookie casino. But really important to support MyBookie because that supports the podcast and the reason why I'm telling you to go support me there is because we're hitting on bets. Like today, here's some picks I gave out. My three PATS picks. Buccaneers minus six at the Giants was my best bet. That hit, Lions minus seven and a half at the Colts. That hit and right now, we're waiting to see how the Denver Broncos shake out against the Las Vegas Raiders. It's only a three-point game with the Broncos up three at the moment. But we're looking at Denver having a chance here to close out and make me a perfect three-and-oh on my PATSPIX this week if they can cover five and a half at the Raiders. I also told you Bucks to win the first quarter. I told you Bucks by 15 plus points in this game at plus 220. And so it didn't hit on some of my props like over seven and a half first quarter points and looks like Cade Otten let me down. The Buccaneers tight end had a drop and an overthrow by Baker Mayfield. But we're hitting on half our props as we go with those long shot props, our giant sprinkles and going three and oh likely on PATSPIX if the Broncos can hold up their end. Plus pick every game against the spread every week for the New York Daily News and way above 500 there. Looks like I am now eight, three and one in my best bets for the Daily News every week. All that is to say my bookie is the place to go, tail those picks and my bets and you will be winning money this football season. My bookie bet anything anytime anywhere. Also brought to you by Boom Chaga Mushroom Super Drink, a natural extract loaded with anti-inflammatory, immune boosting, antioxidants and heart healthy compounds. 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And each bottle can make up to 16 cups. Go to estate98.com/talkingball to get an exclusive offer of 80% off your first order. All right, let's start with the super chats and then we will get back into the queue. Thank you for everybody who was here early everyone who's joining now, everyone who's joined up. What I, my goal here is always to give you the most honest and direct and insightful information and takes and opinions that I have on the Giants and on the NFL. All right, Chris Spires checks in with a $5 super chat. Thank you, Chris. He says, I want to bring the GM and coach back, but I'm afraid you have to blow it up. I think you speak for the Giants there, Chris. You know, John Marin, Steve Tisch. I mean, Steve Tisch, we haven't heard from him, which has been strange, haven't heard from the Tisch family. However, I do believe that or not believe, I know I can tell you that throughout this season, even when I was sitting there in Washington in week two, asking Brian Dable if he was concerned about losing his job. That was based on information that he was coaching for his job, that he was in that scenario if it kept getting worse. And I can tell you at that moment, you know, internally, even though it was headed that way, if they kept losing, obviously, they went against Cleveland, so he staves it off a little bit. But internally, the preference is not to blow it up again, as much as they keep doing that every two years or in the middle of the second season. There has been a really strong effort from the Giants, if you've noticed the way that they've been covered and the things you've heard from national reporters, they're really trying to stand behind as loudly as they can through leagues or through conversations or through just insistence that they believe in Joe Shane and Brian Dable and they don't want to tear it up. And that is their preference, right? But to me, when you see poor game management, poor coaching, poor play calling, worst offense in the league, scapegoating Daniel Jones, when obviously the entire operation is bad, the roster is bad, the roster has gotten worse, right? It's just not, it's not a matter of opinion. But you see, that's where I come down on this right now, is that, you know, you could articulate whatever opinion you want about or you could, you can make individual points about a positive here and there, like a pass breakup by Tyler Neuben, for example today, was one nice play. You had some runs by Tyrone Tracy Jr., right? You had Malik Neighbors for a few plays, once he got targeted, making some nice catches. Although he did have a fumble or an incompletion that they ruled as a fumble that stayed with the Giants, Theo Johnson, a catch and a drop, you know, whatever the case may be. But there are so few and far between positives, especially when you talk about carryover and things that you can really hang your hat on and use as evidence that this is headed in the right direction. I mean, one message that I thought was really strange to hear from a couple of the players, namely Lawrence and Burns, that you can tell is coming from the coaching staff and from higher ups is that this is a "process" and they understand this is a process and they're being sold internally. Look how young we are on defense, right? Look how young we are. These guys are going to have growing pains, stick with us. It almost sounds like that's the message to the veterans like a Burns and a Lawrence who are fed up and really frustrated. That's the message of stick with us. It's going to get better. We're building something to next year. Players don't want to hear that, especially, listen, let's face it, you know, if the giants aren't tanking, how would it look any different if they work? You know, this is what a tank looks like. John Mara isn't about tanking. He doesn't believe in it. He says he doesn't believe in it, right? He says he would never do it. It's about the integrity of the game. But this is what it would look like if you were and putting DeVito in over Drew Lock, obviously, if this was their idea that it was going to jumpstart the offense, horrendous decision, and if the idea was that you were going to lose and get a high draft pick, then that's unacceptable too, to the players, to the locker room. And so, you know, to your point, Chris, to round it out, ownership doesn't want to make a decision or, you know, to make a change. But Shane and Davele are leaving them very little choice, is how I see it. Steve checks in with $5. Shane Bowen may not make it past Thanksgiving talking about your hot seats. Yeah, I mean, I would agree, except, I mean, what are we doing if we're firing Shane Bowen? You know, like, Wink, Martin, they'll left because of the dysfunctional operation that Davele was running. And so you ran, essentially, your best coach out the door because your head coach and your operation was terrible. And so then nobody really wants the job, so you hire, like, the fourth or fifth choice. And then Shane Bowen has tried to be accountable, but nobody was sitting near telling you, like, Shane Bowen was going to come in and fix the defense. Anybody who thought that, I think, was just ignoring the pedigree that Martin Dale had and the effectiveness he had. And like I said, Bowen has been mostly accountable publicly. What scared me was hearing him say this week, leading into the game, he cited as one reason they don't have as many turnovers. He said, well, when you play man, it's hard because you have your back to the ball. I mean, Wink, Martin Dale got criticized for playing too much man-to-man. And the Giants tied for the league lead with 31 takeaways last year. You know, that just reflects a lack of understanding of football, I think, to be able to say that. But my point is, you know, Shane Bowen is not the problem. You know, picking off people left and right, Daniel Jones and, you know, like even people today, complaining about a guy like Deontay Banks. Like, what are we doing? What are we doing complaining about Deontay Banks when there's four rushing touchdowns for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers? And again, the big plays, the explosive plays, the explosive runs start with gaping holes on the offensive line and defensive line, you know? And this was a Bucks offensive line that didn't have Tristan worse, their best player. DH says, Pat, do you think, do you think this franchise needs established, experienced leadership at both head coach and GM? First time head coach and GM in this market for the past 10 years is not working. DH, I think that's a really good point. I think at the very least, DH, you need what I think is you need at least one of those two people to be someone who has experience. And also with experience, what I'm talking about when I say experience also is, you know, self-confidence, but not arrogance, but confidence enough to handle yourself directly and honestly with the New York market and the media and to be somebody who does not shy away from accountability and knows how to, knows how to operate. Um, you know, I think what Shane and Dave all struggled with is while they were trying to build, there's been a lot of ego involved, there's been a lot of, there's been a lot of trying to prove yourself right over somebody else wrong, rather than stepping away from it. It's almost like getting too close to it and making it personal rather than truly keeping things as business decisions, treating people the right way, rather than saying things that are gonna, you know, make guys view your decisions as vendetta driven or agenda driven rather than something that's best. Also, obviously hard knocks did not reflect well. As far as, I say this a lot on here and I know some people, it's hard to believe at certain points 'cause you assume that there's more competence happening. But, you know, I thought hard knocks showed that there was more fly by the seat of your pants decision-making when it comes to the roster and team building that people would have imagined. Forget what you think about keeping Sequan or not or who they signed and who they didn't, right? I'm not talking about Sequan necessarily. But I think what you saw there was kind of like case by case, kind of, you know, point and shoot decisions on, well, if this happens then maybe we'll go here instead. And, you know, we don't wanna do this because X, Y, and Z. And then in the Sequan situation, you know, hearing from one of your lieutenants in Chris Rosetti, like, are we sure we wanna do this and not this? And, you know, getting good advice from one of your lieutenants in Joe Shane and then still going the other way. And just kind of ignoring it because you have your own ideas that don't necessarily align with anything other than, hey, well, I believe in positional value, right? So, you know, I think there's something to be said for also when you're the leader, when you're at the head of the table and at the head of the room, as a general manager or a coach when it comes to leading an NFL franchise, especially in New York, people need to look at you and believe that you're taking them to the right place in the right direction and that you're confident in your operation and that you're not a finger pointer, but you instill confidence in your players by putting them in a good position, by not overreacting to what you see on Twitter or paying so much attention to the narrative and what reporters are saying about you and participating so much and trying to craft the team's version of the truth that you're just doing just as much work on that as you are on actually building the team. You can't work here if you have thin skin, you can't work here if the noise gets to you to the point that it impacts your job in a negative way. I can tell you firsthand from being a reporter here. There are times where the trolling on social media, where the comments from people, whether it's in emails, on chats like this or on Twitter, they get to you and they can really impact your ability to see or think clearly at times because it can hurt. It's one of those things where this is what we've signed up for. So when you're in the public eye, that accountability and that extra responsibility of putting yourself out there and then standing behind what you say, what you write, what you report, what you predict, what you say about people, how you criticize, all of that matters, right? And so you have to stand behind it and if you can't weather the storm, if you can't weather those moments, when you're a fledgling coach, general manager, who are taking way more criticism than even someone like I am, if you listen to it and if you let it dictate how you operate, then you're not going to survive. And I think that's what there is to be said for DH on experience. Now you could have a situation where, let's just hypothetically say you brought in an experienced general manager, but you hired a first time at coach like a Ben Johnson, right? Now I don't know if Ben Johnson would be a guy who would love to work in New York and could handle New York as a coach being there at the podium every day. That's an important part of it, right? Like with a Ben McAdoo, he was a really good offensive mind. He even had a good first season. He struggled with the public optics podium every day side of it. It wasn't like a people person in that way. So sometimes you have that. But you could in this situation, have an experienced general manager who just knows how to build a team. And then you have a coach who can really improve your offense and be an expert on an important side of the ball like that. Or on the flip side, if you have a GM who's working through things, but you have a Mike Tomlin-esque coach who can really keep accountability and discipline with your locker room, then maybe that can balance out the growing pains that the general manager is having. I think really where it's translated most though. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, fiscally responsible, financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to progressive and save hundreds. Because Progressive offers discounts for pain and full, owning a home and more. Plus, you can count on their great customer service to help you when you need it. So your dollar goes a long way. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save on car insurance. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates, potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. Two on the rookie side of general manager and coach with Shane and Davele has been the relationship side. Davele is a great guy for a player to be buddy, buddy with and talk to as a friend. But the way that this operation works is not enough guys held accountable. And then on the Shane side, you just have too many players leaving or being run out the door, feeling like they weren't treated well, like they weren't given the proper respect. And the team is getting rid of good players and that there are reasons other than merit why those things are happening. And so that's why there's a road to trust in the locker room and DH, you're helping us get started here on a great foot in this conversation. I know there's a long winded answer, but I hope it reflected an answer to your question. GM Padroza says, "Davele losing the locker room. "Neighbors gum chewing was cringe." Yes it was, yes it was. Talk about unprofessional looking. Obviously I love that you gum all the time, all day, especially when I'm doing like right now, doing that intermittent fasting. So there's times where I'm starving and I'm chewing tons of gums so I'm not eating more food and drinking lots of coffee, estate 98, shout out. But no, it was a bad look all around, shocking quotes from elite neighbors there. All right, Daniel says, "giant state media propaganda "blaming everything on the defense in the post-came powder cake." Yeah, you could see that from a mile away. A mile away, right? Blame it on the defense. So let me read you some stats. The Giants offense scoreless in a first half for the third time this season, including two straight games, both in Germany and here. Also, would have been four times if they didn't get that last second field goal or that late field goal in the first half against the Eagles. They had three points against the Eagles. So they've actually had three shut out first halves and they've also had five first halves in their 11 games where they've had three, they've had three points or less, five of their 11 games. Navas says, but yeah, the state media stuff, it's too much. Listen, I don't like spending a lot of our conversations here dumping on other people, right? I don't want people spending their time dumping on me and trashing my coverage and taking shots like that. Like, I think that's ugly. And frankly, you know, I think it is counterproductive. Like, I think you guys as fans, I think you're smart enough to follow what everybody says and writes and does. And, you know, decide who is giving you the best, most reliable information, who is bringing it to you straight, who is coming to you with as little of an agenda as possible, trying to be as objective as they can. You know, it's your prerogative who you cover or who you follow, who you listen to, who you read and who you trust the most. But I thank all of you who are here because I do believe that even though it's been tough lately and even though these conversations are hard, I do think that I've been sharing the most accurate read of this team and this organization with you. Novice says that performance today was the players telling the world how they feel about the front office and coaches. They quit and this regime has to be over. I agree. Thank you for the super chat. Gerald says, Pat, what is your thought on if they dismissed current GM and head coach and promoted Brandon Brown and Kafka respectfully? You mean for the rest of the season? I mean, you could interim them for the rest of the season. I could understand that. I would not, I would not understand if they were replacements next year, right? 'Cause I think, I think Kafka, you know, I think when he's able to get out of here, he's out of here. And I think that, you know, he was essentially embarrassed and had all of his power and say so and involvement stripped away. And, you know, that I have Brandon Brown who, the way I see it with Brandon Brown, he has been party to everything that has happened here. You know, I think, I think the way I see it is, Brandon Brown is as much a part of what Joe Shane has done as anybody. I mean, he's been directly involved with all of their decisions. Jim says, "Pat, prepare for new members in the chat, blaming you." No worries, no worries, I don't, you know, I think we all know that, listen, the best way I could put that, I just don't answer all of that. Whether I was sitting here at MetLife Stadium today or not, the Giants still would have lost 30 to seven and been embarrassed by the Buccaneers. But Jim, welcome back, thank you. Most illest, what's up, says Dable told neighbors that the veto will throw the ball before you get out of your break. A clear shot at Jones, what a clown he is and the locker room has quit on him. Yeah, that was a telling comment by neighbors, right? It did seem like that's what he was being told. John says, "Absolutely love the crickets on Twitter today. All the people who blame Daniel Jones saying he was the main problem and he held the team back. Clearly, it's Dable." And clearly based on how the players reacted and are continuing to talk about Daniel, and it's not the quarterback, we all see what they're saying, we all hear them. Anybody who doesn't hear that is obviously just ignoring it. Patrick Evans checks in with a $50 Super Chat. Patrick, thank you so much, man. Thank you, holy cow, wow. I really appreciate that, Patrick. I really appreciate that. Sincerely, that is what we are building here on the Believe Network and on the Talking Ball with Pat Leonard podcast, on the YouTube channel, it's PL and on NFL. If you're not subscribed yet, please do. If you're listening to the audio version on Apple or Spotify, thanks for being here. And please join us next time on our YouTube channel for our live chat. We'll try to squeeze another one in before the Giants play next on Thanksgiving. Not sure if I will or not. Probably depends on if there's news, but I'll let you guys know, keep you updated on social media. Regardless, we'll do one on Thanksgiving after the Giants play the Cowboys for sure. But so what Patrick says is Pat appreciated all your hard work and reporting. I think they should get rid of Shane before Dable. He got rid of two of the Giants leaders, Barkley and McKinney, this team lacks leadership on both sides of the ball. And how about this? Something to keep an eye on here on Monday as far as when this change happened. So number one, Teddy Bruceky on ESPN NFL Countdown, they had a segment today. And Teddy Bruceky basically said that when they let Saquon Barkley go and Joe Shane let Saquon Barkley go, he let the culture of the Giants go out of the building. And it wasn't just about on the field. And that's essentially what Darrie Slaton said to me the other day. He said, Saquon Barkley's role here was bigger than football. And Saquon's one of the players we're talking about and one of the mistakes they're talking about. But that hits the nail on the head as accurately as anybody can about the way that they misjudged things here with this regime. Also, Stephen A. Smith, who boy? So Stephen A. Smith ripped into the Giants saying that they called the giant, called ESPN and complained about Ellie Duncan ripping Daniel Jones. And Ellie Duncan, you know, in all honesty, obviously that was in poor taste what she said about Daniel mocking him. That was stupid. But, and it was unprofessional. It was basically somebody who thought, "Hey, everyone's dumping on Daniel Jones, I can too." And, you know, it was wrong. But calling and ripping the ESPN and complaining about how the Giants were being covered, allegedly according to Stephen A. Smith, that did not surprise me to hear that for Stephen A. to say that. Now, obviously we've seen reports since saying that the Giants did no such thing, did not call ESPN and talk to ESPN and complain and that Stephen A essentially, quote, made that up. I would say, and listen, I genuinely, I genuinely am serious when I say this. I don't usually watch those debate shows. I hear about them, I watch, I watch the clips on social media is what I do. You know, something goes viral, I watch it, right? And if I know it's Giants or NFL related and it's relevant, like I go find it. That is appointment viewing. That will be a appointment viewing on Monday, November 25th, Stephen A. Smith responding to the Giants alleging that he made that up, especially after this game. - Patrick, thank you so much for that 50 bucks. Really appreciate that. Reminder here at Talking Ball Live, we are brought to you by my bookie, Boom Chaga and the State 98 Coffee. My bookie go to their link in my social media profiles, including on my YouTube channel right here. Go to the profile, click the link, make your first deposit and you'll get a 100% match on your first deposit of $50 or more all the way up to $1,000 plus a $10 casino chip. All you got to do, make that first deposit, use the promo code PATS picks, P-A-T-S P-I-C-K-S. And doing that, you'll be able to tail my picks, win money this football season with my bookie. Also brought to you by Boom Chaga Mushroom Super Drink, a natural extract loaded with anti-inflammatory immune boosting antioxidants and heart healthy compounds. It has the ability to lower cholesterol, reduce inflammation, improve immune and heart health with its beta glucans and antioxidants. Use the code TalkingBall25 on a subscribe and save order on boomchaga.com and you'll get 25% off. Start feeling the difference today at boomchaga.com and the State 98 Coffee, especially Coffee Concentrate, perfect for when you want a quick cup and skip the lines. Takes me less than 10 seconds to make a delicious estate 98 hot or ice coffee. Great as a mixer for espresso martinis and each bottle can make up to 16 cups. State98.com/TalkingBall for your exclusive 80% off your first word. Keith says the DJ situation has conned people into overlooking the mismanagement of personnel and relationships. A new quarterback isn't going to set the edge of our stuff around. Really well said, Keith, there. Yep, exactly. The mismanagement of personnel. How about this? And listen, I told Tyrone Tracy Jr. in the locker room as he walked out. I said, keep your head up, you're a good player, right? But let's face it. This idea that in the Saquan Barkley conversation, the offense conversation, this idea that, hey, Shane was right. Look, he got Tyrone Tracy Jr. They're great at running back, right? He did the right thing. Now, this is a rookie who in the last two games has basically three turnovers, two fumbles lost and a drop pass for an interception. Listen, he's not supposed to carry the team. He's a fifth round running back. He is a, he looks like a good pick for a fifth rounder, right? All of the, that's true. Love the kid, love the player. I think he can be a good piece. But again, to say that this organization and this front office has improved this roster and improved this team, it's not happening. It is regressing and is regressing because of the personnel and is regressing because of mismanagement of those relationships. Like you said, Saquan Barkley, Daniel Jones, Sterling Shepherd, Nick McCloud, Nick Gates, you know, and on and on, really. All right, let's see who's next in the queue. I wanna make sure I don't miss any super chats. No Met says Pat, what up? Happy Sunday. No Met's always a pleasure having you here. Got a lot of super chatters weighing in, a lot of loyal talking ballers. Kyler says first with 550 left in the third because I really don't give a blank. Wow, Kyler jumped in with almost six minutes left in the third quarter because he was tired of it right off the bat, that's good. He says, this team has checked out clearly doesn't care. So why should I? Clearly they don't want to play for Brian Dable. I don't know if he survives. Kyler reminds everybody to like and subscribe also just like Patrick did. Thank you for that reminder, Kyler. He says, Pat, why does other giants content target you? The last guy in the chat lied, but Big Blue Bantar called you out by name saying you were treating Daniel Jones like a Hall of Famer. To be honest, Kyler, I think that I tend to be first on strong opinions and sometimes or oftentimes critical strong opinions. And listen, I've been wrong before. Obviously, I'm not saying I'm right all the time or whatever, but I do think that you stick your neck out. And so especially when you don't follow the crowd and you're doing your own thing, people tend to be skeptical. What I don't understand is I feel like for them, I feel like I steer the fan base in the right direction to where things are going or where they are even though it's not popularly known. So I do think, Kyler, that over the course of the months and the years that I've been doing this and that as we continue to go, I do think people understand that it's not a gender driven. It's not, I have nothing against the giants. I have nothing against coach X or player X or GMX. I am reporting what is happening. And so I think covering the giants during a time of a lot of losing, and the way the world is now, people rush to blame the media often before they look at the actual issues that they're talking about. So I think all of those things kind of go into the pod and that happens. But I don't mind, like I said, it gives, it can be tough, there are tough times, for sure, even for me, like listening to the noise, people ripping me or in my comments or making it personal. That's what I would say is that most things I don't mind, the only thing I mind is when people make things personal. By the way, I wasn't at your main illuminors locker, but listen to this quote. So Jordan Ronan just posted his story on ESPN. And a lot of our quotes, obviously, the same from Dexter Lawrence, Brian Burns, Darius Slaton, Malik Neighbors, et cetera. Listen to this one from Jermaine Illuminor. I personally don't think everybody is giving 100%. Wow, I personally don't think everybody is giving 100%. What do you guys think of that comment? That is something else to hear. And so listen, that's what I'm saying too. Like when Jermaine Illuminor says, I don't think everyone's giving 100% on the team, right? What does it matter what I say? Better yet, if I were to tell you everything was fine as a starter on the offense is telling you that everyone's not giving 100%. If I were telling you everything's fine and then you heard Jermaine Illuminor said that, you'd be like, I can't trust Pat. He's not telling you what's actually going on, right? A novice of things has any good off the record quote from the locker room. You mean like, you mean background? Yeah. So one person used the word ugly to me about how things are. You know, really this is a situation where if the team was able to get a result, I think they could all like lie to themselves about being able to get to the finish line here. But the constant loss is piling up and how bad it is and how you know you have guys saying people aren't trying 100%. You know, that's where we're at but ugly was a word. I would tell you this too. You know, the Dallas trip is gonna be a tough one. I don't know how to say it exactly but it's not gonna be, it's not, I don't think the Dallas game's gonna be a pleasant experience. I think I don't sense confidence from anybody here that their results are going to look any different. That's what I don't sense that. So, yeah, I actually, so this is how I work, just so you guys know, we're live right now on talking ball with Pat Leonard live post game from at Life Stadium and I've already filed my story for the New York Daily News. Like I said, I had a lot of good quotes. I did not hear Jermaine alumina or say that. So I do need to, it is on me, even though it wasn't my quote, I do need to add that quote to my story and give credit to ESPN and Jordan because of course for you, the fans, you pick up the New York Daily News and you're reading it. And yes, I want to be unique and give you my take on things and my reporting. So you try to obviously get everything yourself and avoid having to credit people. But the bottom line is, you know, that is arguably the biggest quote out of the locker room, right? Along with the neighbor stuff. And so to put it in there, you know, he told, he said, according to ESPN, it's got to be in there. It doesn't matter who it's according to. It tells you the fan the most realistic reflection of what's happening with the Giants, right? So that's why it belongs in there. So I'm putting it in my story right now. So John Marrow walked briskly past us in the fourth quarter, declined comments and have a happy Thanksgiving. The players had a lot to say, though, when the frustrated locker room opened. I personally don't think everybody is giving 100% said left tackle, Jermaine Aluminor, according to ESPN. And then I go into Malik neighbors saying they're soft as F. He's tired of losing and implied that Dave Bull's game plan and play calling were a problem. So adding that to the story. And let's continue in our super chat here. So novice, yeah, I hope that clarifies things. The ugly, the Jermaine Aluminor quote, wow. Okay, let's see, Kyle says, Pat, it was very clear that it would take a catastrophe for this regime to be let go. It's unfolding right before our eyes, unfortunately, they're done. And that's what I'm saying is like, you know, in all fairness, I know you needed to see it for, to say, oh, it is going to be a catastrophe, but based on the knowledge of the quality of personnel evaluations or lack thereof, the quality of coaching and lack thereof, the dysfunctional nature of their operation, the fly by the seat of their pants, no plan, decisions, all isolated, not part of a bigger picture, lack of accountability, you know, this all adds up to what I was telling you was coming. But yeah, Kyle, I agree with you 100%. Paula says, have you spoken to people on other organizations where they're front office or players, almost the perceptions of the Giants recently? Yes, you know, there are people in other organizations who see some talent here, namely like, you know, there are people around the league love neighbors as a talent, right? You know, let's see, Brian Burns is respected. I mean, people don't think that he's the kind of past rusher that commands the salary the Giants gave him, but they respect him as a player. Dexter Lawrence is revered as a, as one of the best in the league at his position. You know, Bobby O'Karrick, obviously, is a season removed from a big time year, even though it hasn't happened this year. Frankly, you know, even though the Drafts have been good around here, Micah McFadden, you looked at a day like today, not a, you know, not a perfect player, but in the role, if you have them in the proper role, like Micah can give you something, especially as a late round pick. So there are people around the league who look at this roster and they say, there's some talent, there's some talent, I like you, there's some players I like here. And obviously, everybody knows that the Giants need to seek a great quarterback, just like all the teams that don't have one, but I think the biggest sense people around the league have in criticism they have that fans maybe don't understand is that, you know, Shane's personnel chops is lack of consistency in making the big decisions, the Saquon Barkley decision, not one that people around the league agreed with, or fully understood, very low opinions of the Giants from people around the league after watching hard knocks and how they made those decisions and kind of the revolving doors of why they did certain things and didn't do other things. And so, you know, that was, it became very clear. I think Dable's game management is poor situational football and also, you know, Dable did great work with Josh Allen, but he has not revered as an offensive mind around the league, or as a head coach and leader of men, the way that you might think based on his success in 2022. So those are some of the broader strokes points that I would say. Let's see. Kyler says of blue banter, when simply all you said was Jones wasn't treated the best on his exit isn't the sole problem. I was a fan of banter, but they are just ridiculous using the wine voice mocking you very unmanly. Yeah, no, that's strange. Well, especially, I mean, listen, like I said, if you don't want to hear me say, you could just listen to the players say it. They're essentially saying what I said. Where do you think I'm getting this information from? Where do you think I'm telling you why this is the case? Right? When you go into a season with Dimes and DeVito as your QB's you will fail every time, says Barbara. Patrick says, "I truly believe the reason why Dable put into DeVito is because they are soft tanking." They look like they're tanking. Tell you that. Undefined, says they just got destroyed by a team with four wins, what a disaster Dable is. Yep. That's what, like somebody said to me earlier, oh, they played the Saints in a couple of weeks. They're not very good. I said neither are the Bucks. George says, "Well, maybe it was not Daniel Jones. "For my experience, Pat, they could have had Tom Brady "on the Giants, they still would have struggled. "Daniel Jones was never given a chance "for three different coordinators. "One thing Pat, Tom and DeVito will not make it "through this season. "He's going to get pounded every game," says George. Peterstown says, "Guess it was all Daniel Jones "after all and rolls his eyes." Barbara says, "No way Dable or Bowen can survive this. "Oh, line is still worst in the league. "Not sure any quarterback is going to survive "behind that line." Collar says, "Will Bowen be the first scapegoat? "Stop the run with his attribute, I guess. "LOL. "Bill B as GM, Tim McDonald steps up more. "Wink as DC, Ben Johnson, head coach. "Mary Yoda as vet QB. "I love the idea of bringing Wink back. "Love it, Kyler. "I agree with that as well. "I think that your first call has to be to Belichick "as a GM, but you know, he obviously has his own people "and brings in his own operation. "So you're mixing and matching some people there "that I think maybe all don't fit together "into the same regime and structure. "But I will say that I like the idea of getting a veteran "and somebody like Martindale in who knows the players, "knows the area. "And really, I mean, this team was really good "in large part because he was excellent "at helping manage the games "on the defensive side of the ball. "Joey B says, "Sad state of affairs for our team, man. "Davito got crushed so many times today "on our defense is Swiss cheese. "I was bidding, I was rooting for the Bucks "and not ashamed to admit I want the tank." Brett says, "Pat, if you can tell Dave "all that Black Friday is approaching "and you can get a deal on some new luggage, "that would be great. "Times are tough, thanks." Well said, Brett. Iconics says, "Pat, is this getting closer "to an in-season blow-up specifically "if Thanksgiving looks like this?" Yeah, my guess is probably after Thanksgiving, assuming they lose to the Cowboys on a short week, I guess you're probably not making changes. But, like I said, really interested to see what Stephen A comes out with on Monday and how much he, the Giants, continue to take publicly. They were torn to shreds, Sunday morning as well. And even Bill Coward, half time. Bill Coward on CBS said that the Giants looked, quote, uninspired for players. Undefined says, "I think it's getting obvious "that Wink was responsible for more wins than Dave Ball." Undefined, sounding like someone who knows football is what that is, because from a game management standpoint, how could you argue with that? Also, the blame game, right? This was part of the reason you saw my story on what led to Martin Dale's departure. What part of what led to it was you have losses where the offense can't score, and yeah, the defense obviously makes mistakes and isn't perfect. But the defense has been carrying your team, forcing turnovers, and the offense is scoring seven, 10, 12, 13 points. And then after games or during games, you're hearing like finger pointed at the defense. And this is what I reported coming out of the bye week. I reported this week leading into this Bucks game that Dave Ball and the coaches were ratcheting up the pressure on the defense to essentially to play perfectly, to make fewer mistakes, to stop allowing explosive plays. And from a defensive point of view, they have to take accountability and try to be better 'cause they have to be better. But also in the back of your mind, it's like, we're not scoring any points, so you need me to play perfectly, right? So not easy to keep a locker room believing in you when that is how you're treating the team, and that is how you're dispersing blame and accountability. So, see, Timothy says this team is not functional. I'm not sure what the answer is anymore. I was not in favor of firing the current regime, but things are being handled so poorly, maybe it's time, A to B reactionary. No, I agree. Okay. All right, let's see. Barb says, "Neighbors said all we need to know. "It's not the quarterback. "He's implying it's the coach." Exactly. And exactly. All right, let's see. All right, let's see. Barbra says, "Just lose out at this point "in clean house after the season. "Shane and Dave Ball and lots of these players. "No one is off limits." George says... 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Wonder what they'll say about his post-game comments. Agreed. Alex says, "What a joke table is." He created a dysfunctional coaching staff last year, and as we see, it's a clown show this year. General manager and head coach have lost the locker room. Mara, are you watching your revenue leave? Yeah, and the parking lots were pretty empty today. The seats filled up a little bit better than I expected them to. To be honest, but the booze started pretty early, and the by mid third quarter people were heading for the hills, as they say. It was ugly. All right, let's see. Patrick with another super chat. Wow, Patrick, thank you. He says, "Pat, why is table not using his best weapon neighbors more often, worst points per game, and yet he doesn't target him until the second half?" I don't know. I put out this long post at the beginning of the game, like actually before the game started. And I'll read it to you guys, because I think this is important, let's see. So I did some quick research based on what I was watching in the Giants last few games. And it seemed clear to me that for some reason, even though people weren't really talking about it, it seemed like neighbors was not getting involved in games early enough. So I looked it up. And in the last four games, the Giants last four games, he had a total, right? OK, so this is the Giants games against, let's see. The Giants games against the Eagles, Steelers, commanders, and Panthers, OK? Eagles, Steelers, commanders, and Panthers. Neighbors is stats where, in the first quarter of those four games, one total catch for four total targets and 13 yards. So one catch on four targets for 13 yards and four games, in the first quarter of those games. He had one catch versus the Eagles in the first quarter on two targets for 13 yards, then against the Steelers. No catches, one target, commanders. No catches, zero targets. Carolina, no catches, one target. And now, this week, against the Buccaneers, he has no catches, no targets. How is it possible that Dable and the coaches and that Joe Shane even involved in this operation? How is it possible they can't get him targets? Forget the catches, even. This is what neighbors are saying. Neighbors are obviously one's catches. Forget the catches, though. What about targets? What about attempts to get him the ball, right? What about being able to protect your quarterback for longer than a half a second in order to try to get him the ball? What about offensive scheme that puts your team at an advantage? So that's why neighbors is pissed. All right, let's see. Patrick, thank you again. Really appreciate that. It's like we got another super chat here. Joey B says, Pat, who can we cut and get rid of? What's their loss cap room we can make happen for the best season for a clean slate team? Doesn't trust or believe in the staff or organization any longer worst ever? Joe, right now it's late in the season. Your money's kind of committed already. As far as guys you want to avoid paying next year, let's see. By the way, Luminor was a quad injury. I think he's holding out hope for Thursday, but I'm not encouraged. I mean, he was really laboring in a lot of pain. I would guess he wouldn't play in that game on a short week. That's what I would guess. So you might end up seeing Chris Hubbard and Evan Neal again, quite the tackle situation for the Giants, and who Aziz Olari had a toe, did not talk to him on a short week again. I think any guy who leaves a game like this doesn't come back, probably expect that he can't play in the next game. DJ Davidson did come back after getting hurt. Mike McFadden played through that heel. Some of those guys, guys to watch, injuries to watch on a short week again. Be interested to see if any guys start tapping out and start showing up in the injury report out of nowhere. That'll be interesting to see. Let's see. I mean, upcoming free agents, upcoming free agents, Darius Slaton, Simmons, Locke, Van Rotten, Gillan Adori Jackson. At this point, I guess there might be some incentives that exist in certain places, Joe, that you're trying to avoid paying out, but by and large, we're pretty late in the year here. But I will ask around on that information and try to bring you something more direct on like if there's a player or two who would make sense for them to not play or sit down incentive-wise or whatever. I saw somebody report that that was part of the reason that Drew Locke might not be playing as well 'cause he has incentives that could add to his contract. Thank you for the super chat there. Let's see. John says, just curious the year Marahire Gettleman, did he attempt at all to hire John Dorsey or did Dorsey just choose the Browns? Marah should hire him. No, that was gonna be a Gettleman hire the whole way. Really, the story behind that, I believe, is he was a protege of Ernie Acorzi. Acorzi ended up, essentially, and he and the Giants ended up tapping Jerry Reese and not Dave Gettleman the first time. So he was close with Acorzi. That was a relationship that at that point, it was kind of like, okay, I've been passed over. So when the time came for them to choose a new general manager, it became okay. Now it's his turn. We owe him this as friends and as somebody who put in his time and felt like he was owed that and was part of the Giants family. And so that was kind of doing right by him and giving him as a true giant who had been with them for a while and who was friends with Ernie Acorzi who had gotten them to help get them to the promised land, that was kind of how that transpired there. So that's why it was Dave all the way. Jay says, Pat, I get what you were saying about the team imploding, you saw it first. What do you say to all of these people who say you are a media weasel when most are just towing the line and keeping their jobs? Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, like I said, I think the best way to say it would be, I think the best way to say it, Jay, would be that if I was not sitting here and covering the team, they would still be this big of a disaster. And that would be my, the biggest point I would want to get across is, you know, if I sat here and wasn't reporting on the Giants, I think that, you know, they would be the same team, the same dysfunctional operations operation. And that's all I can say. I think fans are allowed to believe what they want to believe. But like I said, I think this is a really good example of why it's important to try to always tell it like it is. Because when you tell it like it is, so if your main aluminor says there are guys not playing, giving 100%, and I'm telling you everything's fine with the Giants, why would you believe me the next time I told you something about the Giants? That's how I feel, you know? That's how I feel. I feel like, you know, my, your integrity's on the line and your reliability as a reporter is on the line. And you have to be straight with people. And if you're not, I think it's very transparent and people won't trust what you say the next time. So, you know, what I find usually is, as this goes for sometimes with sources too, or people in the league, sometimes people in the league don't necessarily believe that things could be as bad as I'm describing them. And then they either experience them themselves or they, you know, it's like, sometimes you have to bring a horse to drink, right? You, or you have to, you know, what's the saying? I forget the slogan. I'm like Ron Burgundy here screwing up cliches. Bottom line is, sometimes people need to experience it themselves before they know and before they trust or confirm, they need to confirm it for them before they believe what you're saying. And I think a lot of times people come back to me after their critics like that, if that's what people are calling me or whatever. And I think eventually they come around. I do think that there's a segment of the fan base or people in the media who love to try to ostracize somebody like me who's trying to tell it like it is and being critical. And they tried to put me on an island and mock me and make it personal and take personal shots. And then you always gotta watch. Then they always end up six months later, a year later, they say that they always thought what I thought the whole time, but they don't give me credit for it. They just say, oh yeah, it was always headed this way, you know? They can hear from people in January. The Giants were, yeah, they didn't wanna make a change, but this year, going into this year, it was always going to be pressure on Brian Dable and Joe Shane, if they didn't turn it around. And I knew it was there, I just didn't think it would go there. It's like, okay, sure, sure, whatever. We all remember who was saying and who wasn't in August and September. Let's see. Todd says, hey, Pat, where does Daniel Jones, where do you think Daniel Jones signs? I think he signs in Minnesota, that's my guess. I gave you guys a list of teams on X the other day. That was based on reporting. Not just, it wasn't like speculation on FITs, that was based on reporting of where I think were possibilities. Obviously, there are other teams that have come out that I didn't have on the list, like the Ravens, et cetera, but the list I gave you guys included. The Cowboys, the Vikings, the Niners, the Dolphins, the Eagles. And there were a few other teams I threw in there, the Raiders. But my pick, obviously the Niners look like they need help too. My pick is the Vikings based on the combination of all things. The combination of, they don't have a quality backup or a sufficient backup. Started with an injury history. A coach who, if you're a quarterback, you would want to be coached by now, especially someone who has helped Arnold revitalize his career. If I'm Daniel Jones, I would want to be coached by Kevin O'Connell and a team that's in contention and is going to be in the playoffs. So that's my guess, Minnesota. George says, I believe if the Giants had the right people in place, we would have been good this season. Todd says, Giants should release Dable and treat him poorly on the way out, just like they did the Daniel Jones. Well, here's the frustrating thing with the Giants, is, you know, like when I say Brian Dables on the hot seat, you know, I get ostracized or criticized or people come after me or whatever it is. And then, you know, like look at Ben McAdoo, Joe Judge, these guys who, it's like the organization or people with the Giants stand behind them until they don't. And then they just want to decide when it's time to, you know, to run them out. They don't want somebody like me setting the agenda or telling people what's actually happening. They want to do it on their own. But they run people out of here, you know, they like to run people out of here on their own terms. Dkit says whether you realize it or not, the team and how they play a direct reflection on the GM and head coach, name me one example of a great GM and coach that ever had a team play like this, exactly. Gary says, "Hi, Pat, you called it, fam. "They should have gotten rid of Dable and Joe "after Carolina game. "Every team played hard today except the Giants." George says this game is a microcosm of what Daniel Jones went through his career with the Giants, got pounded in games, don't think DeVito will last the whole season. Antonio says, "Pat, do me the biggest favor "and tell everyone in that locker room "that nobody cares if you had a good practice. "Like what is the point of saying "that we just got embarrassed," it's a joke. Well, that's, Dable said, standard at the podium said we had good practice all week. Obviously you didn't, obviously you didn't, right? Falls on deaf ears. By the way, how about Daniel Jones escaping Alcatraz? How about that? Daniel Jones escapes Alcatraz. Patrick Evans says, "Bring back Jerry Rees." "Thanks for the response," says Jay Farries. "If you were in charge of the Giants this offseason, "what would you do?" First coach, first call to Bill Belichick. I would look into, you know, Wink Martindale and a possible reunion there. I agree with whoever brought that up earlier. I thought that was a really good point. And let's see, general manager, I'm not exactly sure yet. Definitely doing more digging on that front. Definitely, you know, not exactly sure yet on the general manager, but I do think Belichick has to be the first call. Ben Johnson, obviously a really interesting name. It's a shame Ryan Flores is suing the Giants for allegedly screwing him in a head coaching search because I would be interested in that. Let's see. Chris says, "Cook 'em, Pat." "Bring in the toilet paper and disinfectant "to clean up the shit show," says Lucas. Matt Smith says, "Shraggers at any reports on table being "on the hot seat are erroneous, "and he will be back next year. "He seems to be pretty plugged in." What are your thoughts? That's fine if he wants to say that. I don't think that's the case. "Locker room lost," says Steve Keys, exactly. "Dable can't call play," says Barb. "Dance has poverty franchise." Mike says, "You don't have a better opportunity "to hit reset than this offseason. "New GM and new coach at QV." 10 minutes. All right, thanks. AJ, what's up? Well, let's see. Matthew says, "McKenny intercepted a pass." Yeah, I saw that. Xavier McKenny, another good player shown the door. Paulie says, "Pat, you do great work as always. "What pissed me off was Baker Mayfield "making fun of Italians. "He should apologize, and the big problem is Mara "and his penny pitching never looking "for a black athletic quarterback." Paulie, I don't think he was making fun of Italian Americans. I think he was making fun of the Giants being a side show and throwing this product out there. George says, "Pat, you are the absolute best giant reporter." Thank you. Thank you for saying that, George. That means a lot, seriously. Not just saying that. Let's see. Stephen says, "Why, oh, why, Pat, would you sign a quarterback "when it took only six starts to be done with him? "I know it was a two-year deal, "but they put him in an impossible position. "The only way he was going to succeed was 14-3." Thanks for always keeping it real with the Giants front office, says Johnny. You got it. Let's see. NYC says, "Baker was doing that for all the lost giants." Exactly. Listen, he's friends with Saquan and with Sterling Shepard and these guys. That was a message from all of that. From all those guys, no doubt. Let's see. Jake, I'm great to see you. Where's the piano? I don't have the fake background up, man. Do you like that? Maybe I should use it every week. Let's see. Jacob says, "Am I crazy to think this draft class "saves Joe Shane's ass?" What about it? They're all playing and it's not helping the team. Tyrone Tracy Jr. is the one guy who I'm sitting there like, "Okay, I like that pick." But now he's hitting hard times, too. Yes, I do think there's a chance Dave will's gone in season and Joe after it. Yeah, the players have, yeah. They're not, they did not play. They did not play their hardest today. I think that's a fair thing to say. And it's an indictment on everything about what they doubt from this team and this program and this regime. After a doc says this modern NFL has passed, Mariby, nothing will change until the team gets sold. What won't happen in my lifetime unless Steve Cohen is a Giants fan. Fire whoever's in charge, Bommie says, "It's that simple, hunter wants them all gone. "Any player that quits should be gone," says Barbara. Let's see. David says, "Would you make a Trevor Lawrence trade?" I don't know if that's the answer. Bet says, "Talk, Pat, talk." Jacob says, "Do you think we go get Higgins "to get him with neighbors in Wandao?" It would be a lot of weapons for a rookie quarterback. Definitely need more weapons. Roster is so far away, he says, "Even so many missing pieces, "lack of talent, poor coaching." Undefined says, "Pat, you should do an investigative report "on who at the Giants is paying ESPN and others "to cover for the coach in GM and blame Jones." Well, this is one of the things that we're going to do with Jones. Well, this is what I'm saying is what I'm saying. I'm telling you this right now. The Giants and teams and NFL and all these places, you know, anybody who comes after a reporter like me, it's a way to try to change the conversation and take the target off of the back of what's really happening, which is the bad football, the team, the bad personnel decisions. And when I'm telling you guys what I believe is the truth about the Giants and about the NFL and about whatever NFL team I'm talking about or player situation, there are forces at work trying to make you believe otherwise. There are people, you know, if I have sources in the Giants organization, there's other sources in that organization, you know, sharing different versions or their versions of the truth or their own spin. And that happens in this business all over the place. And what cracks me up is the perception and the belief of some people that somebody like me is trying to drive an agenda through for personal reasons when it's the exact opposite that there's so much stronger forces at work outside of me and people I'm talking to. There are so many stronger forces at work trying to convince you, the fans of a different reality than what is actually going on in certain situations. All right, let's see. Steven says, "I was upset with you "when you called for a table's job, but you are right. "They need to go. "I want to see Kafka and Rosetti the rest of the season." I agree on Rosetti. I saw a team that flat out was giving up, Dabel has lost the team. Dan says, "Nobody left for Dabel to hide behind now "that Jones has gone, fired, ranked, stripped Jones, "Capco, play calling, fence cut Jones. "Nobody left to blame." Yeah, I also did not like Kafka and Shea Tierney really not taking accountability when we were talking to them after the Daniel Jones situation this week, Tierney's saying too early to talk about why the Daniel Jones development didn't progress properly. He's one of the people who are in charge of that, asked him if he was going to do play calling down the stretch. He said, "No, I've never done play calling. "We know that's not true. "He did it last season in the second half at Dallas." So what was that? And then Kafka's saying, "Yeah, I'll talk about Tampa Bay. "I'm not going to talk about Daniel Jones. "That's Dabel's purview. "I mean, come on." Lowest scoring team in the league. Jonathan says, "Steve Cohen or Hal Steinbrenner, "please buy the Giants." Patrick Evans says, "We keep blaming coaches and GMs. "This organization has been banned for a while. "We keep getting rid of coaches "until they get rid of our good players, "which affects the culture." Yeah, no, I mean, I think what you're talking about is ownership and the way that they make hiring decisions, who they bring in, the hires they make. That all goes to show and point to, really the way that it operates. And also, I say this all the time. I've said this for a while. I said this when I first got on the beat. One of the first major things I noticed about the Giants was, they do not properly evaluate their own team. They do not properly evaluate themselves. They look at themselves and they overevaluate their own players, their own draft picks, their own evaluations, their own coaches. And meanwhile, when they have massive problems, they spend just as much time trying to airbrush them in the public eye as they do actually trying to fix them. And so that is just running in place when it comes to trying to improve. So I want to thank, first of all, Chris, Steve, DH, GM, Daniel, Navas, Gerald, Jim, Mostillist, John, Patrick, especially with the 50 bucks on that Super Chat, Keith, No-Mets, Navas, Kyle, Paulo, Patrick, Joey B, John, J. Farris, Patrick, J. Farris again, Jonathan and Patrick Evans to close us out. All of those Super Chats, really appreciate that you guys supporting our channel. Can't thank you enough. We are brought to you here by State '98 Coffee, Boom Chaga and My Bookie. Remember, Pat's picks on My Bookie go to the link in your social media profile on my X account, P-Lentered, NYDN, or on my Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, Threads, whatever, and use the promo code, Pat's picks. You'll get a 100% match on your first deposit of $50 or more all the way up to $1,000. Why is this important? You'll get a $10 casino chip, by the way, and they're a casino as well. This is important because, ready? 3-0 on My Pat's picks this week, a perfect 3-0, making you money on My Bookie, let's go. 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Go to estate98.com/talkingball to get an exclusive offer for 80% off your first order. That's gonna be all for Talking Ball Live, post-game with Pat Leonard today. We will be back this week. Obviously, they play Thursday against the Cowboys. Hopefully, we'll be able to deliver a preview edition. Again, give you the latest from inside the Giants. We'll get in the locker room on Tuesday. Be able to tell you what's happening with the team. Bring it to you first here from the New York Daily News and the Believe Network here on Talking Ball with Pat Leonard. I see authentic down there. Authentics always here, always watching. Authentics demand, go watch and listen to everything authentic does amazing content. I know I keep saying we're gonna get our next creator series going, promise that's coming soon. And if you haven't caught it already, go watch ours earlier this season with authentic. I think that was good. A lot of prescient comments from both of us there about where this is headed and problems we have with the current operation. So what else did I have to say about you guys? Well, just really appreciative of the community we've built here and everything you guys are always doing to help promote me on social media and to encourage people out there to come join us and hear what we're doing. I'm gonna close this by trying to throw out some positives because obviously it's been a lot of frustration and downers talking here. So here are my positives from today. Micah McFadden played his butt off. Tommy DeVito finished the game despite getting bludgeoned all over the place during the game. Drew Lock stayed ready, went in, completed his only pass despite being humiliated and passed over this week in the decision to go right to DeVito instead of two Daniel Jones. Let's see, Tyler Newman had a nice pass break up on a third down to force a punt while guarding Mike Evans. Bobby O'Kareke played better than he has was more active it appeared than he has been. Obviously it's hard to give a lot of credit out because the Giants played so poorly. But I'm trying to do my best, trying to be Mr. Brightside here. And I also will say, you know, there's players in there who are accountable, like, you know, I really like Chris Mann hurts the veteran, hard worker, lunch pail guy, you know, you need more people like that in your locker room and on your team. And so with that, I'll say, first of all, happy Thanksgiving, if I don't see you guys before now, like if you don't come out, come out to talking about a live post-game on Thanksgiving, I'm sure you will. But if you're not there, you know, happy Thanksgiving to you and your family. Second, I probably will do a live to preview the Dallas Cowboys game upcoming on Thanksgiving in Arlington. So hopefully see you guys there. And thirdly, I think my overall takeaway here is, I think this is the end for Shane and Dable. I just think it's a matter of when. That's my opinion. No one's telling me that. That's just my opinion. And I think it's going to keep getting worse. And I think that is why, along with all the things that you saw on the field, and all the comments you heard in the locker room, it's, you know, it's bad. It's as bad as it's been in a long time. And it's only going to keep getting worse. I think that the biggest takeaway you should bring from our talking ball postgame live here is, this was a statement by the players that they don't see the direction here. This was their play getting worse, being called soft, rampantly, and having your top offensive player call out the head coach and having a starter on your offensive line saying that guys aren't playing with 100% effort. This is as bad as it gets. And to have confidence in the leaders who enable and have built this lack of culture, that requires a look in the mirror from ownership on down. I think it's ridiculous. We haven't heard from the Tisch family. And I think that ultimately what it comes down to is the most accurate way to describe it is do the Giants want to make changes here with this regime? No, they haven't wanted to. But do I think they will? Yes, I do think they will. Early odds have the Cowboys' three and a half point favorites on Thanksgiving. America will be subjected to Giants Dallas in the middle game on Thanksgiving. You have Bears at Lions Giants at Dallas, Miami at Green Bay. Thanks for being here. Thanks for supporting. Love the community we have here with Talking Ball with Pat Leonard here on The Believe Network and on the YouTube channel. And I'll just pick this one out as on our way out. Ben says, Pat, you are on a generational run. Keep it up. Ben, calling me generational, putting me in the company of a Sequam Barkley, I'll take it. Thank you so much. It's always nice to be right and to be appreciated when you are, because all I'm trying to do is bring the most accurate information and insight and analysis to you guys. Thanks so much. Take care. See you soon. And go over to the New York Daily News website now and read my column and takeaways, as well as Peter Splendorio's sidebars and stories on this game from @LifeStudio. See you guys later. If you liked the show, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe. It really does help the show to grow. Thank you for listening. (crowd cheering) [ Silence ]
New York Daily News NFL columnist Pat Leonard emerges from an explosive postgame locker room to discuss the Giants' disgraceful Week 12 blowout loss to Baker Mayfield and the Tampa Bay Buccaneers at MetLife Stadium.