Is HIV in retreat? How is Bob Geldof reshaping the Band Aid story? And is Britain falling out of love with the cuppa? Olly Mann and The Week delve behind the headlines and debate what really matters from the past seven days. With Harriet Marsden, Arion McNicoll and Rebekah Evans
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The Week Unwrapped - with Olly Mann
408. Lenacapavir, Band Aid and tea
It's the weekending Friday the 29th of November, and this is The Week Unwrapped. In the past seven days, we've seen Storm Bird battering the UK and claiming the lives of five people, a ceasefire agreed between Israel and Hezbollah after 13 months, and Glastonbury announcing Rod Stewart will play next year's legend slot at the age of 80. You can read all you need to know about everything that matters in The Week magazine, but we're here to bring you some stories that passed under the radar this week. Big news not making headlines right now, but with repercussions for all our lives. I'm Ollie Mann, let's unwrap the week. And joining me today from The Week's digital team is Harriet Marsden and Rebecca Evans, and from Daily History podcast Today in History with the Retrospectors. It's Arian McDnickel. Before we get going everybody, a controversial issue in my house I'd like you to help me decide, is it time to put a Christmas tree up already and is yours up? No, no and no. Firm views. Absolutely not. And I think it's relevant to say that I am one of those people that's obsessed with Christmas and loves putting up Christmas decorations, and if I am saying- You want to keep it special by restricting it to December, right? Yeah, if I'm saying it's too early, like it's really too early. December 1st is the first day that Christmas tree should be up. Anything before that is sacrilege. Unacceptable. Arian. Okay, well, I'm going to be the dissenting voice on this one and say yes and no. We have been intending to put out our Christmas tree, so yes in principle, but no, we haven't got round to it due to sort of chaos and disorganization. Okay, well, something else that happens on December 1st is, of course, World AIDS Day. Harriet, you're up first. What do you think this week should be remembered for? The fallen rise of HIV. This is an incredible piece of work because if a person's not infected, then they can infect other people. We can get the cost down and really get the acceptance up. You could substantially reduce the number of people getting HIV. Bill Gates on his YouTube channel on Tuesday. Harriet, what's he talking about? Well, he's talking about Leonard Capavere, which is this incredible new antiviral injection that provides basically immunity from HIV. So we'll talk about that a bit later, but we're talking about HIV this week because this massive study came out, analyzing the rates of HIV in 204 countries between 1990 and 2021. It's this massive, massive global study. It showed that globally new infections from HIV have dropped by a fifth and HIV-related deaths fell by 40%, largely thanks to the success of preventative treatments. Some good news on the show. It's not often we come with a study. The first time in months I've come to you with good news. Fewer people contracted HIV last year than at any point since the start of the pandemic in the 1980s. But then it's success. But of course, you know, it's also success for the virus, isn't it, to say that HIV is still a big problem. How big a problem is it worldwide? Yeah, so this is where all the caveats come in. It's still, it's an enormous, enormous problem worldwide. 40 million people are living with HIV. It's also, although fewer people contracted it last year than at any point since the rise, there's lots of regions all over the world, including in Europe, but also Asia and Africa and the Middle East, that are seeing increasing rates of infections and deaths. So when I said that 40 million people are living with HIV reached that in 2021. That's up from 30 million in 2010. So it's a significant increase. The study suggests that very few countries are on track to reach this massive global target that we have, which is the UN target of by 2030, basically ending the HIV epidemic as a public health threat, so reducing the rates of infection and also reducing the related deaths by 90% from 2010 levels. So we're not, what we're talking about basically is a massive decrease, but also an increase elsewhere and nowhere near a fast enough decrease. And when it comes to all those different countries, Ariane, is it a level playing field? Are the treatments for HIV readily available for everyone around the world? No, absolutely not. And unfortunately, you know, the access to the treatments that are available are very unequal. So not surprisingly, wealthier nations continue to benefit significantly while poorer countries are struggling, largely due to the high costs associated with the medication. So sub-Saharan Africa, for example, which is home to 25 million people living with HIV at the moment, has really tried to scale up its anti-retroviral therapy programs. But it just struggles with both limited healthcare infrastructure, as well as frequent stock problems, and then on top of that massive stigma associated with HIV/AIDS. And then you have in Eastern Europe and Central Asia, for example, anti-retroviral coverage is among the lowest globally due to political instability, and then also these kind of underfunded healthcare systems, and also punitive laws that target marginalized groups like drug users and also LGBTQ+ individuals, same thing in the Middle East and North Africa, and other regions have their own distinct issues. So yes, there's lots and lots of new drugs that are available, like the thing that Bill Gates was talking about at the top of the clip, but they're just not being distributed in equal quantities around the world. Yeah, and even in the US, Rebecca, it's taken some time on certain issues for that stigma to go away. There's some news this month around organ transplants there. Yeah, it's very interesting what's currently unfolding in the United States when it comes to HIV. So previously, transplants of that kind could only be done as part of research studies, but this new rule is essentially shortening the weight for organs for all people, regardless of their HIV status. Now, obviously, doctors will face certain hurdles, even with the advancements that have come into play, particularly for HIV people. There are various vulnerabilities to bear in mind. The immune system seems to be the biggest hurdle there because HIV impacts the immune system and the transplantation process can become more complicated as a result of that. But this is a really interesting development that could really help people who are living with HIV, and as Ariane briefly touched upon there, potentially help to reduce some of the stigma that's still associated with the condition. Yeah, I mean, it's sort of extraordinary to me, Harriet, that it took until 2024 to say that people with HIV in the US could get an organ from someone else with HIV. I mean, you understand the concern, obviously, that there would have been, particularly in the 80s and 90s, about people with HIV giving organ donations at all in case they ended up in the bodies of someone who didn't have HIV. But we're in 2024. Why has it taken so long? Yeah, I mean, it wasn't that long ago that in the UK, men who had sex with men and gay men and weren't typically allowed to give blood donations. You know, it's not that long ago that that changed. And it was, you know, there was no reason for that to still be the case when they test the blood the way they do. You know, I didn't know that had changed because the last time I gave blood, I was asked that question, which shows how long it's been since I've given blood. It's a very, it's an extraordinary thing that I mean, to get on that. It was, I think it was, I think it was 2010 in South Africa, where they first showed that you could use HIV positive donor organs safely in people with HIV. So that's two, that's a long time ago. And this has actually been allowed to be done in the US since 2013, but only for research study. So this is the first time when they've lifted the ban to allow it on living donors and recipients, basically. So yeah, it's difficult for us to have a perspective on just how much stigma still persists and not just worldwide, but in countries, like very developed countries. I mean, among gay men and men who have sex with men, HIV prevalence rates, they're five times higher in countries with laws that criminalize same sex relationships than in those that don't. So it's this, what I think we're trying to get across with the story here is that this is about so much more than the availability of treatment. It's also about political will, it's also about access, and it's really still about stigma. But actually, Rebecca, despite those issues in countries where same sex relationships are prohibited, the rise in diagnoses that we're seeing in HIV is actually amongst heterosexual people in many countries. That might surprise some listeners. Yeah, and that's specifically the case in the UK actually. I found it interesting to read. So there's been a rise in HIV diagnosis, particularly amongst heterosexual men and women. And I think that's interesting because obviously, historically, whether rightly or wrongly, obviously, not entirely correctly, this is a condition that has been associated with men who have sex with men, gay men, for example. But I think that there are several factors as to why HIV diagnosis are on the rise for heterosexual men and women. I think, firstly, testing rates continue to remain low for heterosexual people when we compare that to gay and bisexual men. And then we had the pandemic, obviously, that disrupted testing services. Even in the years since, really, testing levels haven't returned to where they were before the pandemic. And then we look at issues like funding cuts. Many sexual health clinics are closing for a variety of reasons, but funding cuts are obviously a huge issue that the government is grappling with. These sexual health clinics, obviously, were such an important place for people to receive free and confidential HIV testing. So their closure means that it's harder for people to get tests. That obviously leads to undiagnosed cases of HIV and people missing out on the treatment that they need. And just coming back to that question of stigma as well, you know, it's really properly important. There was this really quite moving preamble to a recent UN AIDS report by Elton John, who wrote that for him, he said, "I know the feeling of shame and what it can do. As long as HIV is seen as a disease for others, not so-called decent people, AIDS will not be beaten." He said, "Science, medicine, and technology will be the what of ending AIDS, but inclusion, empathy, and compassion are the how." And I thought that's a really important statement about the fact that stigma is continuing to drive the problem in so many parts of the world. But I think another big problem and kind of what brings us back to this really important report that is saying that infection rates are dropping, but not at the rate that is going to help us meet the targets that the world has set for itself, is that one of the big problems has long been complacency. And I think that the world has started to feel as though this is a condition that is now on the run, that thanks to the developments that science has brought us, we actually have this thing under control. But actually, the situation is that it still needs people to continue to pay attention to it and to continue to specifically distribute the drugs that we have available to us at a level that everyone can afford them. Let's talk a little bit about some of the what, though. Tell us about this new drug that Bill Gates was talking about in the video we played there. Yeah, so it's basically this summer, these results came out of this massive clinical trial in Africa about this twice a year injection. It gave young women total protection from HIV. So all of them were immunos, basically a long acting pre-exposure prophylactic injectable. So it's very similar to the PrEP treatment that we have available here on the NHS since 2020, but it's a twice yearly injection. And the reason why that's so exciting is because there are already daily pills that can be taken. I think there are two, there's a Truvada and Daskovi, but firstly, this injection is far more effective. So it covered all the women rather than it leaving out 1% or 2%. In fact, the early results were so amazing. They actually stopped the trial early to give all the participants the injection. But the problem with these daily pills is that uptake is really bad, especially among young African women. And that's where most of this rise is in sub-Saharan Africa among young women and girls. Just one stat that really jumped out made that every single day last year, 570 young women and girls between 15 and 24 years old got HIV every single day 570. And in 22 African countries, women and girls in that age group are like three times more likely than their male peers to be living with HIV. So this is a massively gendered issue because it's all sorts of things like access to education and stigma and gender-based violence that are impeding access. And the reason they think that these injections will have a much better uptake is because it's much easier to go to a clinic twice a year for an injection. No stigma, no obvious queuing in a clinic every day for pills or taking pills every day. They think that the upkeep, the upkeep tape will be massively better. The question obviously is going to still be the cost because Lana Kappa Vere is extraordinarily expensive. It's actually approved as a treatment in the US and it's really expensive. So it's a question of how to what scale we can get it and whether the manufacturers can kind of release the patent and all sorts of things. It's also, I mean, this is a dark thing to think about but in the context that you were just describing of relationships perhaps where women don't have control or perhaps having unprotected sex against their will as well. You know, it's more discreet, isn't it? It's absolutely more discreet. You can leave the house twice a year and your partner won't know. But just coming back to what we were saying about the UK, there is an aside to it as well. There was this thing launched in 2022, the opt-out bloodborne virus testing in emergency rooms. So some of that rise in diagnosis is because more blood is getting tested in emergency rooms, which is good. That is a good thing. But obviously then on the other side, more than half the STI clinics in the UK have closed since the pandemic. In four years, more than half of our STI clinics are closed. Obviously that has massive implications for access to treatment and testing but also wider on like gynecological services, counseling after sexual assault, violence, that kind of thing. Like there's implications here that go far beyond HIV treatment but it's really, really, really difficult for people to get. I mean nearly a tenth of the STI clinics that are still left are so understaffed and so much funding cut that they can't actually provide the PrEP treatment that the NHS is supposed to provide. And why then have you chosen this as your story of the week? As I said, World Aid stay is around the corner but it's not just that, is it? You feel this might be a turning point? The reason that I think it affects all of us is firstly the perception that the stigma is over is an incorrect one. Just because rates are falling and just because we have treatments available and more treatments coming does not mean that there isn't still stigma and it doesn't mean that there isn't still access issues and will political issues and legal framework issues and all sorts of funding stuff that stops people getting like Aaron was saying with Elton John's quote that it's we might be getting a lot closer with the science and the medicine and technology but we shouldn't be complacent thinking that the stigma is gone and we shouldn't be complacent thinking that the access is equal because also the problem in the UK specifically is that still so much of the marketing around testing and treatment is basically projected towards men who have sex with men and gay men whereas actually if we're seeing a massive increase in diagnoses among straight people particularly ethnic minorities which is the far steepest rise we're not necessarily reaching the people with the messaging that we need to reach and just as a sort of point to end on the UK's longest known survivor of HIV who's John Percy who's from Churro he said so he was actually the 13th person in the UK to be diagnosed in 1981 and he was given two years to live and he's now 40 43 years later he's got undetectable HIV and I think that what he said about over all that time he said very little has changed about how the disease is viewed he says he gets lots of verbal and physical abuse he's targeted by people in the street he's spat on he's called a pedophile he said it's still classed as a gay disease and a very pejorative way so we shouldn't think that the stigma isn't also in the UK too okay um up next the story that brings together Sinead O'Connor Ollie Murs and Michael Burke that's after this okay Ari and your 10 what do you think this week should be remembered for this week we learned that 40 years later Bob Geldoff is still trying to work out if Africans know that it's Christmas we're gonna try the chorus there's a lot of voices on it anyway we're just to hear you with them okay cool let's do it again let me know when to come in because I'm proud to be here and I'm loving life can I go from the top okay what's another bash so my conic voice is from 1984 to the present day there we're talking band-aid of course that was band-aid 2024 which is a 40th anniversary that the charity posted on monday Ariane why your story of the week so the the 40th anniversary version of this song is a multi-decade spanning megamix of the original 1984 hit song do they know it's Christmas and the new track blends vocals from all the different versions of the single that have been recorded decades on that it doesn't include the stock aching and waterman version which I personally feel is an omission but obviously Bob Geldoff had no personal control over anyway carry on okay well so what it does mean is the coming together of stars including George Michael, Shenandoah Connor, Bono and Harry Styles and even though the song has been around for ages and has been variously lauded and criticized in equal measure pretty much since at first emerged the 40th anniversary remix has been subject to a new controversy because it was denounced by Ed Sheeran who said that his voice had been used without permission and had he been asked he would have said no and the comments kind of went on to reignite a long-standing debate over whether the song should remain a staple of the festive season or whether it should be finally retired altogether yeah so I mean you say use without his permission obviously Ed Sheeran consented to participating in a band-aid song what was that the 2014 version I presume that's the one yeah but Nail says he has a more developed understanding of the way that the lyrics are interpreted what did he mean well what he said was that if he had been given a choice this year he would have respectfully declined the use of my vocals and he said partly his views had been influenced by the Ghanaian English Afrobeat star Fusodg who declined to participate in the 2014 recording that Sheeran was in and more recently has stepped up his own personal criticism and has been saying that the song pushes racist stereotypes that quote stifle Africa's economic growth tourism and investment ultimately costing the continent trillions and destroying its dignity pride and identity and Fusodg has further said that the song smacks of colonialism and white saviorism and that he said African problems should be solved by Africans and this year he released his own song we know it's Christmas and said that proceeds from that song will go to innovative local projects in Africa Geldorf has responded to all of that and he's basically said that look his work is well in fact he said quote it's exactly what Fus is saying he said that over the years he's sought out African investment partners and he's been trying to involve more and more people from across the African continent and according to Geldorf he said you inject the oil of cash into an economy and people thrive so I am 100% with the arguments of Fusodg so even Geldorf himself is trying to come around to this point of view yeah I mean the point is Rebecca that the lyrics were written in a rush in 1984 when everyone in Britain had just seen this horrific devastating report on the news by Michael Burke of the family in Ethiopia and wanted to do something and at the time it was very well understood that you know I mean something as simple as do they know it's Christmas as Aaron was just saying the repost is yes they do because there are many Christians in Ethiopia I mean it was very clear that the meaning was can they celebrate Christmas when they're starving to death I mean that's what it meant in 1984 do you think there's an issue with the song itself continuing to be revived because the bottom line is it is getting played is the 1984 versions on the radio all the time it is it is getting played a lot the original version is getting played a lot and I distinctly remember the first time that I really kind of my eyes open to the kind of problematic nature of this song was I was at a university Christmas event and they were playing the song I did know it was Christmas this event and they were playing the song and people were dancing to it and it made my body just like cringe I just felt so deeply deeply uncomfortable that this is a song that is is continuing to be revived over and over and over again yes it was for me I could quickly so it could be released quickly and you know for better or worse the song has raised a lot of money 150 million dollars that it that is obviously a lot of money but my opinion on on this issue is I really dislike the song I think all of the obviously the lyrics have have major major issues in terms of stereotypes particularly the the famous well tonight thank god it's them instead of you line I just have always been deeply uncomfortable with that but I think with the the constant revival of this song my opinion is that once you know better you should do better so it's now understood on a much much wider scale that the lyrics and the imagery of Band-Aid is problematic we've had 40 years to get ourselves used to that idea wrap our heads around it hear opinions from people from the African diaspora they are telling you that it's a problematic song so when a group of people is going through a crisis to me we should be asking them how we can help them and not forcing our ideas on on how best to help so I think gold off we can say that he did his best at the time you know with a limited time that he had and the worldview of the 80s but I think what's best now is to retire the song let it be what it was in 1984 and just move on not a constant reboot and gold off trying to push his opinion down our throats every year it's getting tiresome well let's imagine yourself to be Bob Geldorf Harriet which isn't something that I spend a lot of time doing but if you did you know you have this enormous project that has generated millions of pounds for charity and you as the sort of you know figurehead of this and highly involved with it have seen the good that it's done presumably and so you have a choice don't you as you come up to the 40th anniversary you've heard all the arguments Rebecca's just made as she's just illustrated from lots of people you understand them but you actually then choosing okay well I won't do anything and I won't raise an extra however millions of dollars for a charity that I think is worthwhile you'd be choosing not to raise money if you didn't make a 40th anniversary video you actually wouldn't because the band-aid charitable trust last year helped fund meals for more than a hundred thousand school children affected by the Civil War and Tigray in Ethiopia so you actually wouldn't stop making money if you'd be choosing not to make an extra however much more this extra remix makes you'd be choosing not to put in the bank yeah to go back to your point about imagining I was Bob Geldorf I'd actually rush rather imagine I was Paula Yates who was his partner at the time and is considered to be the brains behind the whole initiative or the culprit depending on how you look at it and actually was the force that helped inspire Geldorf to rally all these famous people so let's just pretend that I'm Paula Yates rather than Bob Geldorf firstly but I think what is interesting is the perspective of the Ethiopians it not just in the diaspora but also in Ethiopia itself at the moment like the prime minister for example so this is where I really hit the wall because you could have all these debates about the enduring impact for good or for bad of this song and how much money it raised in the impact and how incredible it was for people under what was then a military dictatorship and the propaganda telling them that nobody around the world cared about their plight the impact that that had of all of these famous people and airplanes over it is the bar bar dropping cake dropping sweets like all of this incredible impact and the money raised and the recognition and all of the awareness but now 40 years later I mean they've already done this for the 20th and 30th year anniversary as well but now the Ethiopian prime minister himself is telling you please don't do this this is where I'm hitting the wall with it like he said please don't mark the 40th anniversary with a re-release and a call for donations he said it's frustrating to see our nation's ancient history and culture reduced to doom and gloom he did say that the 80s version was well-meaning at the time but he said that a good cause that has not involved with the times might end up doing more harm than good Ethiopia is now one of Africa's fastest growing economies it's got like these amazing ancient sites it's got the biggest hydropower project in Africa it's not great PR for what the investment and the image it's trying to project and we now know other was a report that came out a few weeks ago about how many billions negative stereotypes and portrayals of African nations cost the country and foreign aid development and investment it costs billions per year all of these negative stereotypes that we reinforce with this sort of thing and so yeah I think at this point if the Ethiopian prime minister who by the way is a Nobel peace prize recipient himself is telling you please don't do this and I think it demonstrates an incredible amount of arrogance and really reinforces the accusations of white saviorism to do so so that was a long answer but it was basically yes I would have made the choice not to make the video um Ariane if you were Bob guild off what choice would you have made I understand the point that you're making that you know he's got this charitable ball rolling and the choice is do you stop it or do you keep it going and I think I think that's quite complicated by the fact that even though there you know more money in the coffers means more projects that can distribute that money across the continent of Africa and that is good but I think it's being weighed against the full damage of everything that Harriet's talking about which is all of these stereotypes that you know the world has been coming to terms with over the last 40 years and by now and at some point you know at some point this song does have to be retired I think it's really interesting that Gildoff himself is now talking about the song in totally different terms and he this year has come out trying to say that it's a quote a tiny piece of British rock and roll history on this one record it transcribes the arc of British rock and roll over 40 years and then he points out that on this one record you get to hear a young Rita Ora with a young sting with a young Harry Styles and Sinead O'Connor banana ramma boy George George Michael you know and I think it's interesting this is an interesting new take from Gildoff that he's wanting to position the song as a kind of modern standard that has been contributed to by the great and the good of British rock history and he's not wrong you know some of the coming together of those voices I find a little bit magical and also a bit eerie when you watch the video too not least because quite a lot of the people have now passed away but on the other hand it's a shame that they weren't singing a better song do you think like had they all been contributing to a song that A was a better song and B was less problematic then I think that those voices together would be a much less difficult listen than what we're left with well I mean you saying it's not a good song I had totally understand what you're saying lyrically it obviously is a fantastic pop song Rebecca from the point that it is still being played every year on commercial radio stations which themselves would only play it if the audience wanted to hear it I mean it is on and on and on so it is a Christmas standard it is up there with you know wizard and slayed and all the rest of it and to Ariane's point of it has to be retired well those haven't been you know I I've presented shows on magic at christmas time they're still playing Bing Crosby right they play songs that are 70 years old it won't get retired it's with us isn't it it's a brain worm of course it's a brain worm I mean it's been stuck in my head for the whole week and I absolutely loads the song so it clearly does something psychologically that that is catchy but I just feel like we have to circle back to the fact that the song is problematic with Bing Crosby is not problematic wizard is not problematic slayed is not problematic all of these songs have endured for so many years because we can we can get some some level of enjoyment out of it there's no level of enjoyment that I can get out of do they know it's christmas other than being very uncomfortable about the lyrics and the message and the fact that it just keeps getting revived over and over again I mean I'm not saying you're wrong I'm just saying the evidence show I mean fairy tale of New York has a gay slur in it doesn't it that's still on the radio every year as well like people can point out they're problematic but at christmas people play the same songs they listen to other kids that's just what happens yeah it does and I mean people are more than welcome to play the song if they so choose I mean it's free will everyone can play whatever songs they want to but yeah I won't I certainly won't be playing it on purpose over christmas and I can I'm very very persuaded by the arguments that we should just retire the song altogether do you have a favorite christmas song that you play instead by the way I think you've got to go with more i carry haven't you I think that is the right answer although I've got a soft spot for Leon and Lewis Harriet you sort of I think forgot as well there's like what you're saying is the basis of the ad popular fallacy that's just because something is incredibly popular doesn't necessarily mean it's good or as super hands said in peep show people like cold play and voted for the nazis you can't trust people but my problem my problem with this song is less how it's aged or whether or not it's good but more that it was always inaccurate like this is what was really interesting when I was researching this actually I don't know how many people know this I did not know this Ethiopia was actually one of the first countries in the world to adopt christmas it does not what do they know it's christmas means as I explain 325 ad adopted christmas England was still a pagan country two and a half centuries after that so christmas was huge for Ethiopian history and they actually followed the Julian orthodox calendar so they celebrate it on the seventh of january but and when this song was recorded they were under a military dictatorship and were not allowed to celebrate religious festivals so very much they did know it's christmas but very much were not allowed to celebrate so it's like even the original that could they could have they could have looked that up like they really could have just looked that up I think it's very clearly a rhetorical question it has a question mark at the end you're allowed to answer yes they do um arion uh more broadly than this charities are having to navigate a path around what can be seen as and what has come to be seen as an exploitative othering of the people that they are raising funds for this affects lots of campaigns doesn't it yeah I think that's right you know celebrities now view charitable endorsements very much as a key part of their whole profile but they do have to be quite cautious about skipping over the or making sure that they're not appearing in problematic ways that have become increasingly scrutinized like that sort of the vision of the white saviour coming to africa holding up a malnourished child and and being seen to give several children cake and then walking away I think that's become a huge part of you know charities engagement with the the very thing that they're trying to make some sort of a positive impact on so it's not a minefield for no reason it's important that people bear in mind what they're the way that they are wading into whatever issue they're trying to solve but at the same time yes of course it's a minefield and and for a charity that was built predicated on a thing that you know has been increasingly problematized over the years you can see way way gelled off sort of struggling with this one yeah I also think there's the issue of you know this so-called poverty porn issue you know exploiting the conditions of a vulnerable group of people particularly the poor to generate sympathy for charity you know I think about you know the sad piano music or the you know violin violin strings and black and white footage and all of that stuff it's essentially reducing the recipients of of of these donations to victims it's not giving them their full humanity and that's that's an enduring problem obviously okay uh to tea or not to tea that is the question after this Rebecca you're finishing the show what do you think this week should be remembered for is trouble brewing in britain's love affair with tea all of them telling the story of changing habits in the english home a silver Georgian teapot tells how sailing clippers brought a precious new cargo from the east to form a new english habit today when the kettle sings and the clock strikes yes it's time to follow that new english habit only two and a half centuries new afternoon tea a 1945 commercial for maypole tea not the sponsors of the show this week but good to see that you've got your finger on the pulse of the news this week Rebecca what's the story well it seems as if britain's tea obsession might just be cooling off once the cornerstone of british culture and identity it seems like the cuppa is losing a bit of steam as we opt for coffee and gnts instead several you've done the puns give us the stats what's happened several tea brands have been facing issues recently um british brand typhus filed for administration last week but what i think is the final steep is the fact that uh this week's uk shop inflation data has shown that the price of tea is a key factor which is driving inflation higher uh by 1.2 percent specifically this month so it really made me wonder this week what's really brewing and could this mark the end of uh tea is our national drink so you can take the writer off the typewriter but you're going to finish that sentence for yourself um the thing is though uh if you say that the price of tea is affecting inflation for everybody doesn't that just underline the fact that tea is an essential commodity that we use to measure our economy like you know it's having an impact because everyone picks up some tea when they're in the supermarket right well yeah to a certain extent i think it's um it's interesting because the the popularity of tea as a whole has not necessarily waned it's black tea specifically that is um that they're just having issues right now difficulties have surfaced for various brands when it comes to the sales of everyday black tea specifically so we look at brands like pg tips and Yorkshire tea um recent figures show that sales of black tea dropped by six percent in 2022 and that means black tea sales have fallen behind sales of specialty teas for the first time ever so it's specifically black tea that is um having an issue at the moment which is breaking my heart a little bit ollie to be honest harry what do you think is causing the rise in prices and what does it mean for the people who grow the tea well there's all sorts of issues it's kind of a mix of global disruption there's all sorts of incivility and the red sea in the source canal that's massive knock on to trade and shipping and causing all sorts of bottleneck supply chain issues but it's mainly its climate changes this devastating extreme deadly heat waves this year particularly in India India's arm where we get most of our tea where their top export destination for tea and this year they had you know extraordinarily deadly droughts and massive flooding in the asam region which kind of does i think about more than half their tea output but also there are some there are some other things that play here is specifically in the indian tea industry that could actually be really interesting because their tea industry has been struggling for a decade with the all the production costs are rising but if the price of tea hasn't really risen and it hasn't maybe higher prices could help support that like maybe some of it will feed back to the workers and then also some of it is to do with the fact that the government bound like 20 pesticides so production took a massive hit this year because of that so that could actually be a good like overall net benefit to the environment as well if tea gets more expensive but then i mean typhoon the brand that's in trouble that rebecca referenced there uh you know you go on their website and their whole pitch is about we support people in kenya who grow our tea that's why our tea costs more i mean it's insane that that's effectively what they're getting at and and you know that's the case for all of the big brands they will justify their higher costs but actually people are choosing the supermarket owned brands that their customer is choosing against that yeah so i was going to say as well that like the post-Brexit trade hurdles are a really big factor here it actually just costs so much more to get anything into the uk that doesn't come from the uk so brexit is playing a huge part there and they can't really slap that on a tea box like that's that they're not doing the marketing that they want to do that um but also you know it's just it's a rise of the wellness industry as well people are choosing herbal teas they're choosing coffee there's it's more glamorous it's more exciting more interesting it's more youth-orientated kind of a tea bag and if it's not super cheap anymore and it isn't then it's like well you might as well have something a bit nicer a bit more fun i mean i i'm biased here because i'm not a black tea drinker i'm a coffee drinker so i'm standing with all the young gen zeds who are now buying coffee in way higher rates than tea but also another fun stat that came out recently was 44% of people surveyed said that they would opt for a gnt versus 41% that said they would have a cup of tea with their friends so also there's that as well i would rather i would rather have a gneti in the morning i would definitely i would definitely rather have a gnt at 11 in the morning than have a black tea depends on all of a week it's been it's just it's just a done kabiscuit in a gnt there's all sorts of different issues here like the the prices are rising at the same time as demand is falling so you've kind of got a sort of perfect storm in a teacup oh i thought the puns had stopped i was sorry it was right there arion you are actually in the home of cool coffee basically aren't you i mean i know you're in sydney rather melbourne but still australia and the italian immigrants to australia have helped boom coffee all around the world right as the trendy young drink the harret was referring to is it your fault oh well first of all that would be a red rag to a bull that business of whether sydney or melbourne is the truth oh sorry of coffee you know what i was waiting it obviously is melbourne but i'm representing sydney it's it's Sydney but but definitely i think i was actually reflecting on that exact coming together of booze and tea and coffee and you know these sort of new herbal teas and bubble teas and so on and thinking about all of the things that made tea the so-called national drink have written for so long and i think it it had come to be a replacement for many different forms of intoxicant based relief or release uh in the in the uk in particular for things that in other countries people use a cigarette for you know like a reward moment that i'll just do another hours work and then i'll go get my cup of tea where other people might choose cigarettes and i think you know Brits often do tend to meet for drinks of the alcoholic variety when they go out they sort of go out to to have a drink in a way that in Australia you might you might go and have a coffee but i think that like the tea itself has long been this sort of it's had this association with homeliness and intimacy and welcoming and also comfort you know it's this it's this major comfort drink and maybe it's that place that it is partially losing its market as well that like as people find different uh drinks that can carry out that role to sort of chamomile or turmeric blend of tea uh that offers something that is also you know health conscious you know it can contribute to your digestive system or your immune system i think that there's no means cheaper by the way and we were talking about how you know the tea bag now seems expensive but i mean a tea pigs or a pocket tea bag per tea bag is like twice the price isn't it so i mean you know absolutely yeah and i and i really don't think that that business of tea getting more expensive is the key driver behind the diminishing popularity because posh coffee is also very expensive i think it is more to do with the fact yeah and also posh coffee well all coffee is threatened by climate change in the exact same way as tea is and so its prices are rising at the same rate and threatening to go even even higher i don't think people are choosing this to drink coffee because it's less expensive than tea it's because they prefer it and i think that that's the thing that you can't find that sort of a consumer based preference is not something that's going to be easily surmounted by this sort of deep in the tea industry Rebecca you were welcoming the end of do they know it's christmas an iconic christmas favorite do you also think it's time that uh britain's favorite drink you know had his death knell no i don't i mean i'm as the team will know i'm one of the only tea drinkers in office i'm flying the flag for tea i just i love tea ever since i was small i've loved tea i like like an old grey i like a nice tea what sorry what little girl drinks old grey how old are you i know absolutely but my family used to joke that you know as a as a four five six seven-year-old i used to like an old grey so wow it's it's deeply embedded within my soul and i'm not willing to let go of tea yeah i mean i've had my morning tea this morning i will have a tea after we finish the podcast um i i love tea so should there be intervention to save it then like like i don't know what i mean that's really a serious conversation at the end of this teacher i don't i don't know what kind of intervention um there would be to to save tea to be honest but i think if if we're being serious in taking my taking my nostalgia and my love for tea uh it's kind of out of out of this um this discussion i think there's there's cycles of popularity when it comes to anything right i i think tea might fall out of popularity now uh but it might you know capture capture attention in the future but i think i don't want to say what's so great about tea but what's so interesting about tea it particularly within the uk is that it's such a great leveler yeah i think whether whether we're enjoying it from find china like the queen or an old chip mug like like the builder down the road i think it's just something that we can all kind of unite on and whether that's a tradition that kind of needs to be uh left in the past is is is obviously up to up to the listener to decide but uh yeah i think it's such an essential part of british culture that it would be a shame to kind of let it go okay i think we have stewed this bag long enough um but just before we go i'm curious now because we've been talking about tea for five minutes uh if i'm off for a round of tea how do you take it harry what's your order herbal wow just straight up never never you build this tea i i i i don't drink black tea at all so all the rest of us in the office are going down for our coffee and this one over here it's faffing about with her tea bag oh so harry was the problem you're the problem harry and how do you take your tea uh yeah if i had to drink tea i'd go like harry i'd go something herbal licorice tea is the tea i prefer if you're forcing me to drink black tea i will have it with milk and no sugar thanks okay and rebecca as the tea connoisseur erring on the side of builders but the tea bag has to go first then the water then the milk yes yes indeed to all americans listening please take that as a warning uh you're you're destroying our culture and i'll eat what's yours oh but thank you for asking arion um i i'm not consistent sometimes it's milk and two sugars sometimes it's just milk sometimes it's even black what is important for me is the brand if possible well sprue i wasn't a big fan of black tea at all oh well sprue a time in card if changed everything on which uh we're gonna have a tea break that's it my thanks to arion rebecca and harry it you can follow this show for free you can get every episode as soon as it's released just search for the week unwrapped wherever you get your podcasts then tap follow remember you can also get six free issues of the week magazine with a trial subscription all you need to do is go to the week.com/subscriptions in the meantime i've been ollie man our music is by tom morby the producers ollie pitt and matt hill at rethink audio and until we meet again to unwrap next week bye