Songwriting legend Desmond Child joins me and I try not to fangirl! Having written some of the most important songs of the last 40 years+, he shares the details of collaborations, industry truths, "TWO : The Story of Roman & Nyro", the movie about his family, and we celebrate his biography, "LIVING ON A PRAYER : BIG SONGS, BIG LIFE". Now released on audiobook! Get your copy at www.desmondchild.com . Desmond orchestrated our youth, and continues to write timeless hits to this day.
Dope Nostalgia
Episode 219 - Desmond Child
[Music] Open up that crystal Pepsi and get comfortable. [Music] This is Dopeness Up. [Music] Hello friends, welcome to Episode 219 of the Dopeness Talja Podcast, and I'm your host Naomi. This episode is going down as one of the greatest ones we've ever done, and I was starstruck and was very overwhelmed by this one, because this gentleman has written some of the greatest songs of my childhood and your childhoods. Still to this day, he's writing some of the biggest songs on the Billboard charts. So when I got the opportunity to interview this gentleman, I was so stoked. I find it very exciting when we have a chance to have a true songwriter on the show, and I think for the level of what he's achieved, this man is in the songwriter's hall of fame. I can't express how many hits he's written, and you're about to find out. Ladies and gentlemen, here's some background information on today's special guest, Desmond Child. [Music] This is coming straight from his biography, which you can check out at DesmondChild.com. Grammy-winning and Emmy-nominated songwriter Desmond Child is one of music's most prolific and accomplished hitmakers. He's a film, television, theatre, and music producer, recording artist, performer, and author. His credits appear on more than 80 Billboard Top 40 singles, spanning six decades, including "Living on a Prayer," "You Give Love a Bad Name," "I Was Made for Loving You," "Dude Looks Like a Lady," "How Can We Be Lovers If We Can't Be Friends?" "I Hate Myself for Loving You," "Living La Vida Loca," "The Cup of Life," "Waking Up in Vegas," "Kings and Queens," and so many more. From Aerosmith to Zed, his genre-defining collaborations also include Kiss, Bon Jovi, Cher, Barbara Streisand, Ricky Martin, Alice Cooper, Joan Jett, Michael Bolton, Katie Perry, Kelly Clarkson, Carrie Underwood, Garth Brooks, Cindy Lauper, Christina Aguilera, Ava Max, Mickey Mouse, and Kermit the Frog, selling over 500 million records worldwide with downloads, YouTube views, and streaming plays in the billions. Desmond Child was inducted into the Songwriter's Hall of Fame in 2008 and serves on its board of directors, as well as the board of ASCAP. In 2018, he received ASCAP's prestigious Founders Award, celebrating 40 years as a proud member of ASCAP. In 2012, he also co-founded the Latin Songwriter's Hall of Fame. In 2022, he was inducted into the Latin Songwriter's Hall of Fame and "Living La Vida Loca" was inducted into the National Archives of the Library of Congress for its cultural significance to America. In 2023, "Living on a Prayer" was certified to have reached 1 billion streams on Spotify. His autobiography, "Living on a Prayer," big songs, big life is now out there. It was released on September 19, 2023. You've got to get yourself a copy of it, and not only that, the brand new audio version of the biography is now available. You can get your copy at DesmondChild.com and make sure that you share it with everybody, because what a brilliant man, incredible, I can't even, I can't even, I can't believe this even happened, to be honest with you guys. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Dope Nostalgia, Mr. Desmond Child. Well, this podcast is called Dope Nostalgia, and it's located out of Edmonton, Canada. That's where I'm at right now, so have you been to Canada very often? Not that often, no. I went to Vancouver once to work with Ryan Adams. No way. Many, many years ago, maybe 25 years ago. What were you working on? Well, he, remember there was a point where Mutlang, who was, you know, he was his mentor, producer, fell in love with Shania Twain, and so he shifted all his attention to Shania Twain, and, you know, I think he got tired of waiting around for his turn again. So I think he was testing me out to see if I would, you know, be able to fill those shoes, which, you know, I mean, I think we started like 15 songs, but he always wanted to, you know, start another one and start another one. We never like finished any of those songs, and I followed him around everywhere. I went to London, worked with him in his place there. I went to Jamaica, stayed, and they, you know, they had rented this house, and a whole studio was happening, and, you know, we're both Scorpios. I thought, "Oh, well, that'll be easy." But it wasn't quite so easy because it's kind of like trying to fill the place of some, like, somebody's, you know, ex-husband or something, you know, like, it's like, I was never going to be as great as Mutlang, you know, so, you know, and, I mean, Mutlang's a genius, so it's, you know, I mean, I love his word. I mean, he's one of my main idols. And so I just love Brian Adams' scratchy voice, which is, you know, I love voices that sound like that. My favorite artist to work with is Bonnie Tyler, who she has that kind of, like, scratchy, like, like, she sounds like she's had a lot of nights out drinking whiskey or something. It's like grit, yes. And so, yeah, every time I hear Brian's voice, it just catches my ear. You know, especially, like, you know, summer of '69 and just, just all those songs, they just come to life, they have so much energy. Yeah. And his partner Jim Balance before that. Yeah. And he had this special magic with him too. Yeah. You know, I mean, you know, it's like, I was sort of like the third husband that didn't work out. It was worth a shot. Yeah, well, I mean, he's like, you know, one of the biggest artists of all time. He really is. He's like a, you know, I'm sure in Canada, he's like a national monument, right? Oh, he's a treasure. Him and Celine. Yeah. She's somebody I really want to work with. And I've been writing songs for her and, you know, submitting them to her team. And, you know, I don't think they've inundated her with all these songs I've been writing for it yet. So, you know, I thought she was spectacular at the Olympics. And you could hear that she's there. Her voice is back. And I just, you know, I've written really great songs for her. And so I'm just waiting. When you sit down to write, do you generally think about who's going to sing this song? Or is it always? I'm usually writing with the person that's going to sing it. Yeah. Because I learned early that pitching songs is almost impossible. You know, there are few artists that will sing outside material. Celine is one of them. And so, you know, that's why she's perfect for me. I've also been working with Barbara Streisand. And she's, you know, she's written, I mean, she won an Oscar for writing Evergreen. But she's not someone who really likes to, you know, sit down and write songs. So she's singing the songs of the top songwriters of her time. And her time has been a very long time. I mean, she got signed to Columbia Records in 1962. So that's like 60 years of making music at Columbia Records. Stayed with the same label the whole time. Isn't that extraordinary? That's pretty incredible. Yeah. So I wrote a song for her last studio album, which I produced with her called Lady Liberty. And it's one of the, you know, I solely wrote it. And one of the few songs I've solely written actually because my business is to collaborate. But I decided to, you know, buckle down and write her this very special song. And she sang like, like, timelessly. I mean, she sounded like she was young and, and, and like her voice was clear as a bell. And just so great. So majestic. When I first met her, I told her you invented a genre of music. The only problem is that you're, you're the only one in it. You got a good laugh out of that. It's a good problem to have legendary. Yeah. So, you know, I've been working on a Broadway show now for 17 years. And it's the true story of my family before and after the Cuban Revolution. And it's called Cuba Libre. And, you know, we've had many workshops and, you know, I think we're up to our seventh director. And, you know, but we're still rolling forward and it just gets better and better. I just want to live to get to opening night. You know. But yeah, that, you know, a lot of it is, you know, a lot of, you know, like for, in. A lot of it is, you know, my life story. But in this particular case, it's the story of my mother's two beautiful sisters. Who were the girls of Havana. At, you know, I was like a little kid then, but it was in 1958. Into the early sixties, you know, when the Cuban Revolution happened. And so one sister had been the mistress of Batista, the former dictator. And then the other one became one of Castro's, you know, lovers. You know, he had many. And so, but, you know, it's, you know, two sisters, two dictators, one island. You do the math. Mucho problemas. Mucho problemas. That's incredible. I mean, and also I read that. Your half Hungarian correct. And you didn't learn about that until later in life. Yeah, I didn't find out who my real father was till I turned 18. When he came to find me and, you know, kind of took me under his wing. Because I had like, I hadn't finished high school. I had run away. I was up in Woodstock, New York. I was, you know, hanging out. You know, this isn't 1971, right? And, you know, it was very wonderful to be reunited with him. Not reunited. I was never united. But to get to know him and see how many things about me were so much like him. You know, just that's DNA for you, right? But I think my mother was kind of a bohemian flower child, poet, songwriter. And he was, you know, a kind of very determined businessman. And so I think I have both of those sides. And that's why I think I've been successful. Because I'm not just writing songs, you know, and just like hoping for the best. You know, I'm just trying to drive it home, you know, to, I make sure it's on the record, stays on the record. And writing songs in a competitive way to make sure that, you know, the artists I'm working with is successful and comes back for us for a second round of songwriting. Yeah. You know, because if you're not delivering, they don't come back. So, you know, I'm competing with all the other co writers and producers that they're working with. So it's kind of fun. Sometimes we all kind of can, you know, cross pollinate and work with each other. Sometimes it's, you know, very different camps. Such as when I worked with kiss Paul Stanley discovered me when I was in my group Desmond Child in Rouge in 1970. What was it, 1974? No, no, in 1978. Okay. And he came to, we had a record deal already with Capitol Records and we were working on that first album. And he came to see us at a little club called tracks that was on West 72nd Street between Columbus and Broadway. And it was under literally underground, you had to go down a long staircase underground. And it was very chic, you know, it was very, you know, modern and cool. And had a very small stage didn't have a backstage, you know, just kind of had a curtain and we were like getting dressed behind the curtain. And all of a sudden this guy sticks his head in around the curtain and says, "Hey, I'm Paul Stanley of Kiss." It's like we looked at him and like, we didn't know. I mean, it could be a poser. Kind of all in identity because they always were like scars and things. And no one was allowed to see their actual real faces. That was kind of like their gimmick, right? And he said, "I just want to let you guys know that George Harrison of the Beatles is sitting at the front table and like I almost fainted." And so then, you know, sure enough, I mean, we gave it all we had, you know, that night. And George was like smiling the whole time looking at us. I mean, he was like right there. So now I'm singing for one of the Beatles. How cool is that? And then Paul came to see us, you know, right after the show. He came over and said, "You guys killed it. How about you and I try writing a song together?" I said, "Okay, well, why don't you write a song with me because we still didn't have all the material for our album and then I'll write a song with you for your group." And he looked at me like, "You don't know Gene Simmons." That's never going to fly. But still, he kept his end of the bargain and invited me to come to SIR, which is the rehearsal studio in Midtown, during their lunch break. So I get there right at one o'clock and I'm walking in while the other guys are kind of walking past me, kind of like, you know, they're big, you know. They're big, you know, leather, spiky, you know, jackets, like, you know, poking me as I'm kind of trying to get past them. And then Paul was waiting for me in this room where they had been, you know, set up rehearsing. And there was this big nine-foot grand piano with a canvas cover on it, big black canvas cover. And you know, there was no use for that piano for them because they weren't a keyboard group, right? They weren't a keyboard group. So I don't even play one note on guitar. So he helped me pull the cover back and we sat next to each other. And I started playing a little bit of something I had started that went like tonight. I will give it all to you in the darkness. That's what I'm going to do. Something like that, right? And, you know, it had this kind of rising kind of triumphant feeling, you know, ta-da-da-da-da. You know, and so then he, you know, we wrote, you know, that verse and all. And then he took it to the studio and worked with it with Vinny Pancia, his producer. And they kind of came up with this part that was like the real hook, which was the chorus, which was like O-Town. And had a Motown feel. And that was kind of based on the last line, you know, you know, I was made for you and girl, you and me, you know, that part. So then they continued. I was made, you know, so, I mean, think about the Motown influence, you know, standing in the shadow of love, you know, really had that, like, floor on the floor dance field. And it really became revolutionary because it was the first hard rock song to use a dance beat. And to be played in dance clubs. And so that became a smash all over the world. And to this day, it's their biggest selling single. But Jean Simmons hated the song, thought, you know, they were like betraying their rock, you know, integrity and all this kind of stuff. And, but the song was so infectious. They, they, they couldn't not put it on their record. And it was their first single. And, you know, it was like, went top five everywhere in the world. I was number one in Australia. And so that's that song is like the gift that keeps on giving, because I mean, recently it was used in a movie called the fall guy. Yes. Yeah. And so, you know, they used it all the way through. And, you know, it's like all these different, there was orchestral, there was this, you know, kind of modern. British singer that, that sang it sort of in the middle of when it got a little bit spooky. And, you know, I was surprised because in the trailer of the fall guy, they used a song that I had co-written with John Bon Jovi and Richie Sambora called you give love a bad name. Oh, I've heard that. So in the trailer, you give love a bad name, you know, shot through the heart. And, but it wasn't like continuous. It was like sound effects and stuff. And I went, Oh my God, is that going to be in the movie? But it turned out it wasn't. It was just in the trailer. And then they used, I was made for loving you in the movie. That's what drew me to the movie was hearing the trailer because Bon Jovi is one of my favorite bands on earth. So automatically, yes. So, so one of the things that I've noticed over the last few years since, you know, after the music modernization act where when our rates was, were kind of lifted a little bit, you know, for streaming. And also the depth of Spotify in, you know, in a car, your toothbrush has it, every, you know, all the ways that music is disseminated, distributed, you know, has been growing. And for some reason, a lot of my songs have become classics. And on Spotify, in fact, right now I have four songs that have reached a billion. And beyond a billion, you give love of a bad name, living on a prayer. I was made for loving you. And Kings, surprisingly, Kings and Queens by Ava Max, which was what I ask you about Kings and Queens because I hear a lot where people, it's got that signature sound. And that that tension in it that you that I was like, this is probably a Desmond child song when I heard it. Yeah. So, you know, it's, it's sort of like, you know, a great thing that people are drawn to my music, even after all this time. And I think that's because in other genres that are very popular, people started writing very linear songs because they put up a groove or a beat, then they layer hooks to it. But when we were writing those songs, it was just the guitar and keyboard and, you know, a pad of paper. And so we were able to do whatever we wanted, if we wanted to change keys, we could easily just change the key. If we wanted to slow the song down and then speed it back up, we could do all these things, but you can't do that when you're singing to a drum machine. You know, so music became because of the influence of urban music, which, you know, all they needed was a beat, because it was a lot of, you know, wrapping and stuff all over that and then people started layering hooks on top of that. And then it was going back and forth, you know, so because of the influence of urban music. Music started becoming much more linear and not changing keys and not moving chords around. It was like between two or three chords. And so I think maybe sometimes people get worn out by that, you know, they want songs that have lifts that go into different keys that that, you know, because I always felt that when you put lifts into music it makes you feel hopeful. And, and so a lot of my songs are, you know, a song like living on a prayer has become a symbol of hope for people all over the world. I mean, during the pandemic, Chicago citizens decided at three o'clock in the afternoon, everyone was going to open their windows and start singing, living on a prayer. And the whole city was singing, living on a prayer. And that cool. Yes. And, you know, we once got a letter from a guy that said he was planning on killing himself, his life didn't work out so he, you know, drives up to the bridge, you know, jumps out of the car leaves the car door open windows open, and, you know, radio blasting. And he was just to like lean over to jump off and living on a prayer came on the radio and that was his favorite song. So he said, Oh, well, that's a sign so that let that be the last song I hear so he went back to the car. And by the time the modulation happened, he drove home. Wow. So Bon Jovi saves lives. You saw the art of the news article where John was on a bridge in Nashville shooting a video. And this girl was getting ready to throw herself off. And he saw her and he came, you know, very gently, very slowly walking towards her. And he didn't get too close and he just leaned over and he gave her that billion dollar smile. And she went to live again. And he saw that. Yes. He helped her to, you know, so certified Bon Jovi saves lives 100%. Yes. Oh, and he's so helpful in his community and, like, helping people get meals, get housing. So he's done some really beautiful things for his community. Yeah, I mean, it's not just his community where he lives, but around after Katrina, they built like a whole like street of homes together with, you know, what is that shelter for humanity. Yeah, I forgot the name of the habitat for humanity. And, you know, he's very compassionate person. And he thinks big and he knows how to fix things in a big way. So he's my idol. And of course, you've had the pleasure of working with Bon Jovi many, many, many times. Do you think these are working the most? Maybe, I mean, we have about 20, 25 songs we've written through the years together. Yeah. But he's also one of the godfathers to our twin sons Roman and Nero. And so, you know, there's a whole movie about it. Called to the story of Roman and Nero and why are, oh, because Nero's named after the, the singer and composer Laura Nero, who was one of my biggest influences. And, you know, I remember one day when he was little says, why do you have to name me after a lesbian folk singer? And I said, because Dylan was taken. You know how many kids are named Dylan? How old are the twins now? They're 22 years old. They just graduated from NYU and they're working as paralegals and two big law firms in New York separately. And their plan is to do that for two years and then apply to law school and become lawyers. So we'll be very lawyered up, you know. But I'm proud of them because, I mean, they grew up around artists and they kind of saw what kind of difficult lives they live. You know, and, you know, they, they saw that it's not as glamorous as it seems. Yeah, not as glamorous as it seems because, you know, between albums, you know, they have to struggle to reinvent themselves every time. And then they go out there and their lives aren't that great on the road. You know, they eat bad food. They don't get enough sleep. They're like struggling to get from one city to the next. I mean, it's, it's, and actors have it way bad because they could wait three years between roles that are significant. And so then, you know, if you're a really truly great actor like Daniel Day-Lewis, you could wait many years between his epic roles. And he's not just taking anything that pops up. You know, he has so much integrity, you know, that he, you know, lives within his means or whatever so that he doesn't have to go out and be on the next, you know, mattress or pillow commercial. Well, you have to work hard and have a great integrity in your work to be as successful and lucky as he is at that. Being able to choose those roles, like, I understand. Yeah, there's a lot that go into that. Yeah, so they, my sons saw how difficult it is to live the life of an artist, even though they're both very talented, they play instruments. I mean, I made sure they played guitar and they've had guitar lessons from Richie Sambora and Dave Stewart and, you know, all the great guitarists that have come through. And, you know, it's sort of like, what are those things where it's like no way where they're going to live a life that vulnerable. You know, so they decided, well, they become lawyers, because, and I encourage them in that because someday they'll inherit our entertainment company. And so I don't want them to be fools and be taken advantage of. And so, so, you know, I've been so lucky in my life, because, you know, I'm, I had been in this very kind of difficult mind control cult for four years. During the time that I was in the 80s when I was writing all those very big songs, I lived two lives. And then I went to Russia for the to this kind of con conclave summit of songwriters, Russian songwriters and American songwriters, people on that summit were like. Oh my God, it was Cindy Loper. It was Michael Bolton. Diane Warren. Just like so many, so many people was 48 of us. And there were like a hundred of them and then we wrote together with them. But it broke the spell of the of the cult I was in because I saw a whole entire country that lived under fear of, you know, they couldn't say certain things. They had to look a certain way. They had to talk a certain way. They couldn't even have us in their private homes. And I got snuck out and went to this little apartment, you know, out on the outskirts of Moscow. And, you know, curtains were all drawn and candles were lit and these beautiful people, like they, the food that they serve, but probably, you know, like they saved an entire year. You know, to buy it, you know, I mean, it was like they, they were so generous. And I said, you know, I feel closer to these people than the people I've been living with for four years, you know, in this kind of offer one, one for all kind of commune that I was in. So I left. It was very difficult to leave. I was very brainwashed. But I knew that I had to do it. And, you know, very soon after that, I met my husband to be Curtis in New York. He was an actor. And I was walking by this restaurant. He was, you know, the Mater D or like sitting people and he looked like Brad Pitt and legends of the fall with, you know, that shoulder length, blonde hair and the blue eyes, only better looking. And it was like, love it for a sight. And so I, I, it was sort of late at night. So I tried to go in and he, and he said, no, sorry, we're closed. So I was like frustrated. So I came back the next night with my assistant, Michael Anthony. And we came earlier. So, you know, we, he, he seeded us. And then it was still towards the end of the night. So he was having his dinner, like at his, you know, table off to the side. And I told Michael Anthony, I said, Tom to come over and bring his food over here and eat with us. And, and so he did. And he, he came over. And then I just like sat there and then Michael Anthony, like talking, you know, he was like, you know, chatter box. They were talking and I just looking and looking. Then the next day I had Michael call him to ask him out on a date for me. And he said, yes. So, you know, from that first date on, it was, it's just been a incredible life. And that was 1989. So, you know, we've lived in my, in LA twice Miami, now Nashville, New York. You know, and we have friends everywhere. And we decided at, you know, midpoint to have our own children. So that's what our movie is about called to the story of Roman and Nero. And two came from a poem that John Bon Jovi wrote for them. Or for their blessing when they were six months old. And it's so, so sweet because it's on this Ritz Carlton stationary and we have it framed downstairs and in their, their area. And it was just like one of those things that we didn't realize how pioneering we were. You know, the whole story of our movie. You know, kind of starts out by meeting our surrogate mom, who was an American, and we met her in India with a Deepak Chopra conference called How to Know God. And I kept looking at her and I, you know, there was something magnetic about her. She said, why are you looking at me? And I said, because you're going to have my kid. And she's like, ew, like, get away. Don't look at me. You know, turns out that she had a dream that she had our, our child. So then when we got back to the States, she asked to speak with us. He says, I think I'm supposed to do this. And so it was just magical the whole way. But, you know, we didn't think it was going to be too. You know, so that's why the movie called too. So, um, yeah, so it's all also in my book that I released last year, called Living on a Prayer, Big Songs, Big Life, which I co wrote with my collaborator, David Ritz. And just last week we released finally, a year later, the audiobook. And so I'm just like, I love the audiobook much better than the book, but it's almost like you have to have both because the book has the pictures. And the audiobook has like snippets of writing sessions and things where you hear us coming up me and Joe Jet coming up with, I hate myself for loving you like the second that we came up with it. And that's brilliant that you included that. Yeah, waking up in Vegas. So when I co wrote, live in La Vida Loca with Draco Rosa. That's in there. And it's so fun. You know, to hear the mumblings becoming like words, then, you know, it's like watching a universe being born. You know, it's, it's so, so wonderful, the creative process, and the sharing of ideas back and forth, and the camaraderie and the fun to, you know, that's why, you know, I had a kind of lonely childhood so that's why I'm really, I, it doesn't inspire me to go down and sit and write a song by myself. I'd rather be in the sandbox playing with the other kids. Yeah. So that's why, you know, I live a blessed life. Because, you know, I, you know, I just, I'm always being asked to, to try to write a song with this artist or that, you know, a lot of them young artists, you know, kind of. So I serve more kind of like almost like as a mentor, you know, kind of teaching the art of songwriting, like my mentors. I had, I had been with a producer named Bob Crew, who had written, co-written and produced all the songs for the four seasons. And he was, I mean, at the time he was like 51, and I was like 28. And it was, no, maybe I was 26. So I thought he was such an old man, you know, and like how do you know how anything, if anything was cool or not. Meanwhile, he wrote Lady Marmalade. And he wrote, can't take my eyes off of you. And he wrote Sherry. I mean, he wrote all the biggest songs that to this day you hear constantly, like evergreens. You know, my eyes gored you, you know, it's like all of these classic songs, but he taught me the art of songwriting. And I talk a lot about, you know, what he, what he taught me in the book. Because these are things that I also share when I do master classes. I just did win an Athens. They did a version of my book in Greek and it was a book signing. But I was in a theater and, you know, it was packed full of up, you know, hopeful song, songwriters and musicians. And, you know, to hear what I had to say. And it was just wonderful. I love sharing like that. And, you know, that's one of the reasons I wrote the book. I'm, I've decided to co-write another book that's strictly on songwriting with Jody Marr. She was the producer songwriter that discovered Mika. You know, remember a song called Grace Kelly? She co-wrote that one. And she's a professor of songwriting at Belmont University in Nashville. And I've known her since Miami and since she was in a band and, you know, that's when I first knew her. And she's just, you know, so great. And so, because she's done all of this, you know, all these studies on the development of music since the beginning of time, we decided to collaborate. And so, I mean, it'll take us like, I mean, my autobiography took me seven years to finish. So I don't know how long this book is going to be. But I think she said there's a real need for a real college textbook. And it has to be laid out in a certain format for it to be able to use for courses on songwriting. So that we're trying to, we're going to try to fill that gap that there is. I mean, you know, my book talks a lot about my songwriting process, but it also talks a lot about, you know, the people I slept with and all that too. You know, so that's not necessary for songwriting. It's good. It's good for gossip. Yeah, songwriting. No, but I mean, I think it's going to be very beneficial to so many writers. [music] How can we be lovers if we can be friends? How can we start over when we're finding other love? How can we make love if we can make a mess? How can we be lovers if we can be head before? Shout to the heart and your two days, all of you love a bad name. [music] [music] Your crew divides your blood like ice. One look could kill my pain, your strength. I want to love you, but I better not touch. Don't tell me, I want to hold you, but my senses tell me to stop. I want to kiss you, but I want it too much too much. I want to kiss you, but you never stop. Never miss the poison. Your poison, running through the pathways, your poison. I don't want to break this change. Don't tell me what it takes to let you go. [music] Don't tell me how the pain's about who you go. [music] Don't tell me how it is that you can't see. [music] Even though, without thinking your loss, never playing that was good in your life, do the toss of us. [music] Don't tell me what it takes to let you go. Go! [music] After these messages, we'll be right back. [music] Hi, if you enjoy Dope Nostalgia, thank you. Consider becoming a Patreon subscriber today for as little as a dollar a month. It helps keep the show on the air and rolling. So if you want to check out our Patreon, it's at patreon.com/dopenostalgia. One dollar a month, and you'll be helping support one of your favorite podcasts. Hey everybody, I'm Rick Campanelli and you're listening to the Dope Nostalgia Podcast. [music] Hey, I'm Josh Rodriguez. And I'm Mike Zachio. And we have the new pod on the block. Every week Mike and I will be breaking down our obsession with everything boy band culture. From bangers to bobs to fashion and everything in between. If it's boy band related, we've got you covered. We also want you to be a part of it. So call to our hotline and leave a voicemail for the show. 818-308-4084. Be sure to subscribe. We give us five stars and leave us a review. Follow me and Mike underscores Zachio. And I'm Josh Rodriguez at Josh_ Rodriguez_. And you can follow new pod on the block on Instagram app. New pod on the block. New pod on the block. Every week on your favorite podcast platform. [music] You know when it's right. You know when you feel it, baby. You hold it. You hear it. You taste it. It's right. [music] You got the right one, baby. [music] If this beer impressively love a bonfire passively call upon him. And I'm gonna miss soulful. You got the right one, baby. [music] [music] I cried, I cried, and it was like that boy, baby. [music] I'm trying, I'm trying in life. Who loved to be crazy. Baby, baby, for the love of my coldest core. It's the river I cried alone. And I'm wrong. And I'm wrong to say love's wrong. [music] Is it over? Is it over? 'Cause I'm blowing out the plane. The walk outside your mind. You tell me how it feels to be. The one who turns the night inside of me. Take a look and you will find. There's nothing there, girl. Yeah, I swear. I'm telling you, girl, yeah. 'Cause there's a hole in my soul. That's been killing the river all around. It's a place where I got in love, I'm wrong. There's a hole in my soul. Yeah, I should run for the better. 'Cause you love, like a flower without a rose. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I'm sitting on silent for a sign. Open up and love the change. I'm breaking board and I don't understand. And the one who feels the same. When you live, you gotta run. You know everything. 'Cause you don't feel it right. But you don't feel it right. You don't feel it right. Oh, yeah. Oh, I'm sitting on silent for a sign. She's living the need I know kind. She'll push and move you down. Living the need I know kind. But lives are dead for right. And the skin's the color of our kind. She will wear you out. Living the need I know kind. She's living the need I know kind. She's living the need I know kind. And I could just watch you in your room. And I could just watch you in your room. And I could just watch you in your room. And I could just tell you where I stand. I would be the smartest man if I was invisible. I already am. Times change, styles change. But I feel like the lyric and the melodies are every song are timeless. No matter what package you put around it, you know? Yeah. I mean, the one that has brought melody back is Chapel Rhone. I mean, her music is just so astounding. I mean, I just heard a duet that Kelly Clarkson did. Of one of her songs with. Oh, my God. A country, country artist. And they sing it in harmony. And it's so fantastic. I mean, I love Kelly Clarkson. She was, I was her first producer for American Idol. Yeah. And I wrote a song for her to sing called Before Your Love. And that was the flip side of a moment like this. It was, it was like a double A side. So that was the more popular song, a moment like this. And so, you know, I'm hoping to get to work with her again. I mean, she's just an extraordinary survivor and, and human being. And, you know, I just, you know, I just feel like I'm made for her. So we'll see what happens. Maybe this interview will send the message out. Work with them. Kelly. And I went through a list of songs that you've written that's definitely, that was on that list. You had done quite a few songs for American Idol artists too. Yes. I was. Carrie, I knew what's first producer. I produce her first number one song called Inside Your Heaven. And, you know, I also worked with Jennifer Hudson with Clay Aiken. I had, you know, I co-wrote with Chris Braid and Andreas Carlson, a song called Invisible, which was so good. And so, yeah, I, I worked with, I worked with a lot of them in the early days. When Clive Davis was still part of the, of the equation there. And I was one of Clive's guys. So when Clive left the show, then I wasn't really brought back into work on that show. But it was about three years that I did the first three seasons. And I loved everything about it. It was so great. And it was at the, you know, during the time that my sons were born too. So I was juggling, you know, like, because we moved to Calabasas to be, you know, closer to the action. So I was like running home to do the bottle feeding at night. Then I'd go back to the studio and then I'd drive back again. You know, it was just like so crazy. But those were some of the most wonderful days of my life. Imagine they would be. There's a song, but well, obviously you've worked with Aerosmith quite a bit. But one of the songs that I think was one of the best Aerosmith songs in the 90s was "Whole in My Soul". Oh, wow. Yeah. There's a whole story behind that. Good. I love that too. Because I had gone to try to write with Rod Stewart. So I went up to his compound and he had this trailer studio like parked in front of this kind of look like Versailles, right? And this is like, look like, you know, like just a box, like a railroad car, right? So I go in there and then he stays in the control room with the engineer and he puts me in a room that just had a piano, which was the recording room, right? And that, you know, he said, okay, so go ahead, like start writing. And it's like, well, you know, I said, well, okay, aren't you going to come in here and go write it with me? No, no, this is how I do it, you know? So I started, I started, you know, kind of banging when I started. There's a hole in my soul and then I looked up, he was gone. What? Yeah, he was gone. And so I just like dejected. I left and then tried to pitch that song to an artist named Curtis Stigars. He's been on the show. Yes, I love it. He was, you know, meant to co-write with me and my manager managed him as well, you know, separately. And so that's how we came together. And this was, I'll never forget it in our house in Santa Monica. And so we were in the music room and I'm, you know, I'm saying, well, what about this? There's a hole in my soul, and he was like, I don't know, I can't sing, you know, a hole in my soul. I mean, it's like, you know, and then he left. He didn't like that. He didn't like my ideas. So then I got a letter. I went to London and I got a letter in London at the hotel where I was staying from him, like a three page letter about how that experience was the worst experience of his life. I've never been so humiliated. And, and how much he hated the experience of working with me and da, da, da, da, da. Okay, you know, I mean, I don't know why he had to put it in writing. I had the letter somewhere, but it was like being in hatred, right? And I was like astonished that he would take the time. And like, what did I do? Maybe I was a little, because I try to be like encouragingly, you know, maybe Hoshi, but it gets people to kind of engage, but I couldn't get him happy. And I don't think he was happy anyway because he's really was more of a jazz artist. And he was one of Clive's artists and he was being pushed into being more of a pop artist at the time. Okay. It was kind of like smooth, you know, kind of, you know, jazz pop kind of thing. And I don't think he was happy with that. And it felt a lot of pressure coming towards him from everywhere. So it took it out all on me. So then I go, I go to, right with Aerosmith. And I started in with, okay, well, what about this idea? There's a hole in my soul, you know, and, and it's like Stephen just like took off with it. You know, it was just like, it found its home, right? But isn't that funny? It's a fantastic song. But the journey of a little hook, there's a hole in my soul, you know, fantastic. It's like either it's like a key that opens up somebody's imagination, or it's a lock that shuts you out. You know, so that's, that's my story on that. I saw a clip of Clay Aiken singing these open arms. And I said, Hey, the second that's a Bon Jovi song too. So I didn't, I didn't, I didn't co-write that one, but no, no, I didn't. No, I did run to me. You know, that, that one, I co-wrote that one and invisible. And after all these years, we actually have become like text friends. I mean, and, you know, a lot of politics and stuff, because he had tried, you know, running for Congress and, you know, as a, you know, deep concern, you know, for our country. And, you know, he's, he's kind of, you know, he's, he's sort of a person that's like, fair-minded. And he's not from the right or the left. He's just like, like, you know, let's just look at the facts. Like, let's, let's stop running to each other, you know, to separate corners. Let's like work together. And that's why I think he would have made a really great Congress person, but in, in those years since he had run, you know, he had been on the apprentice. Remember that. And he, you know, he also had a child and a son who's all grown up now. And so, you know, he, you know, has lived a more quiet life. And I'm sure he's out touring and performing. He has his fans. What it wears flat fans have a certain name. I forgot what their names were. What the name is like. Clakins or no. I don't know what they, but the ladies always, you know, they come to see him. They have a certain name. Sorry. I couldn't. I can't remember it. But we've, we've become very, you know, close friends, you know, through texting, you know, and then sending memes back and forth. It's, it's a lot of fun. And so, you know, that's the thing about my, my career, like, it's. Yeah, I've worked with, you know, huge stars, like Cher and, you know, Eris Smith, Alice Cooper, who I adore and bunch of the Joan Jett. You know, all of the, you know, Ricky Martin, you know, Katie Perry, all of these big stars. But, you know, it's when they, when we go to work together, you know, I try to help them to, you know, get real. And, you know, they pretty soon because I'm what they call an empath. So they start telling me about their life and I'm like, yeah, wow, you know, tell me more. And I'm like writing down everything they're saying, like a therapist. And then those from the lyrics of the song because it's coming from them, from what they want to be singing about, from what they're going through. And it's therapeutic for them, because the process of putting your feelings down, you see it outside of yourself. They can move on from there. And I think that's one of the great services that I bring to my writing sessions. Making sure that the song still reflects their feelings and thoughts. Yeah, I mean, they have to be convincing, because, you know, ever since Bob Dylan and Joni Mitchell and Laura Nero, people started writing confessional songs. And so then when, you know, Carol King, you know, all these people, you know, James Taylor, you know, Jackson Brown, you know, then Bruce Springsteen, you know, all these people were writing songs from their own experience. So then when people, you know, that were professional songwriters that weren't artists, you know, tried pitching songs. And let's say an artist recorded and they weren't a cowriter, the critics would criticize it and say, well, they didn't write. And you can still hear that echo and that all came from the critics. You know, it's like, well, did they write that song themselves? And that's the markers to whether it's credible or not. But Frank Sinatra didn't have any problems singing songs he didn't write. Neither did Garlin, neither does Barbara Streisand. You know, think about it, you know, how, in a way, this whole idea that the conceit is that if you're singing a song, whether it's true or not, it's you're talking about your life. Because it's like telling a friend what you did today, you know, or what happened last night. And that conceit, I mean, it's so different than going to see a movie because you go to see a movie, you sit in the chair and you lose yourself in the movie on the screen. That's the conceit of it, right? We don't expect the actors to have written the script that they say or to have, you know, lit the room or to have been filming at the same time. And, you know, but all the pressures on a recording artist that it's, they have to sing it, they have to, you know, write the song and has to be authentically truth that they're singing about. And, you know, whatever happened to creative imagination, which is, you know, my close friend Diane Warren, she rarely co writes. And, you know, every time she gets somebody to sing a song, it's usually lately in the last 20 years, it's been attached to a movie. So, like Aerosmith saying, I don't want to miss a thing that she solely wrote. And because it was for a movie, they didn't put it on their album. You know, it was just a single and it became one of the biggest songs of all time. And, you know, it was like one of those things where it was a cover. You know, and it was like, it's so well done. And it's one of Stephen Tyler's greatest vocal performances. And, you know, while they were still touring, they couldn't have a show without it. You know, so those are like exceptions, right, where the artist didn't write the song, but they made it one of the biggest hits of all time. And I wish there was more of that, because us working songwriters, you know, we're not always going to be able to be in the room kind of pulling, you know, something out of somebody. Sometimes you want to co write with a professional, another professional songwriter and come up with magic. But then it's hard to get it recorded. And in country music, people are more used to singing songs they didn't write. In fact, when they put out CMT, they would, you know, always credit the songwriter written by. But you wouldn't see that on MTV or VH one. You wouldn't see this credit credit because national and country music, you know, is the, you know, the songwriter is the king or queen. And I guess I'm the queen. But just, it's, it's like one of those things where if this is the other, the business part, if somebody hits big, then the publishers go after that person to represent them. So they offer them big advance money, thinking that, you know, they're going to write another huge smash right around the corner and they'll just keep making money. But the thing is, is that sometimes these deals are pushed by the managers and then the, you know, like if, if you have a song, money comes in a little bit at a time. So the manager gets to commission whatever comes in on those little checks that come in. But when you get the advance, they can commission right off the top. What they wouldn't have gotten. So it's like getting an advance that they can make the bank and make interest on instead of waiting, dribbling the money coming in little by little. And then artists were given these big huge advances to sign. Then they had all this pressure to write songs to be on the record, even if they weren't good. And so that's usually when I'm called in at the very last minute, you know, like write them ahead. You know, it's like, well, hold on a second. You know, it's like, you have to develop things and you have to have a true relationship, but I've done it, because I can do it, come in last minute, boom, becomes the first single. And then, you know, instead of, you know, kind of more natural development of a creative relationship. But the pressure that the lawyers and the managers put and the agents and all this put on the artist is tremendous. And it's not natural to the creative process. Exactly. Yeah, like that. So a lot is it's like what happens to with athletes, like you're paid to do this job so you must perform. I can't imagine having that kind of pressure on anybody. Well, that's a little different, because the product is what's happening on the field like right at that moment. Live, yeah, live. So, you know, and people get injured a lot, you know, so and then they can't do it. But, you know, they're also selling out those huge stadiums, you know, where people paying top dollar. I think my sons are going to, you know, a basketball game that they've been saving up for. And those tickets to be courtside are it's like two grand each. But they're treating themselves, you know, and they saved up their money and they're going to do it. And I'm proud of them, but still it's a Jesus $2,000 a ticket. So a lot of money is made in sports. But in the music thing it's a little bit different, you know, because you have to wait so long for it to get through the system to come out. And because, you know, they're all of these, you know, is radio and radio promotion. And, you know, all of these like rails that you have to succeed in for something to become a big hit. You know, unless it's like a TikTok sensation. But I've heard lately that record companies, you know, like they, they're A&R people don't do anything but watch TikTok all day. Looking for the next new talent. So if somebody pops out like, wow, they all go running there. They're probably crashing into each other at the doorway trying to knock on the door. And then, you know, they they'll pay a million dollars to sign somebody. And then the kid like, you know, has never left their bedroom. They made all stuff on headphones. They've never performed. They've never been on tour. They've never done anything. So, and most of them are one hit wonders. So, are they doing original music that they wrote or are they doing covers? Yeah, you know, no, original music that they wrote. Yeah, like Sean Mendes was like that. You know, I think he might have done covers and whatnot, but he really truly is talented. I mean, they whoever signed him lucked out. But there are a lot of kids that, you know, dream of becoming stars because we live in a kind of America. And kind of American Idol world where everybody gets their 15 seconds of fame. And everybody feels like they deserve attention. And in social media, you know, with filters and this and that, you can look like a star. And I kind of create yourself. But that doesn't mean that you're going to be able to sell out, you know, an arena. You know, it doesn't mean you can tour because it's so expensive to tour. And, you know, I remember going to see some Bon Jovi shows. They had 18 semi vans outs, you know, like huge, I don't know if they're semi, like huge trucks that were carrying the stage, all the components and the equipment and everything to bring people a fantastic show. And, you know, of course, you know, they toured the world many, many times and everyone always couldn't wait to get to see the Bon Jovi again. But that's not true of artists that didn't even play their local bar. You know, that doesn't have the experience of singing to two drunks at the bar and getting them to like clap. It's like connection, you know, it's like that. Paying your dues. And also the pressure on youth. You know, it's like, you know, it's like, how old is that person? Oh, they're what? 26. Oh, that's too old. No, I can assign it to 26 year old. They're like, done. It's like, well, it takes that long to even get good. It's true. You know, so all of these kind of commercial factors are interlaced with the, you know, then the kind of AI crashing into all of it. And we're living through some pretty scary and exciting times. Before we wrap things up, I was going to ask you about the story of Tommy and Gina. And how that all came to be lyrically. Well, it's all in my book, living on a song's big life. And my audio book is really great. It really, truly is great, because there's a lot of music that's woven through. And it's also hearing, I read it. So, you know, it took me seven months to do it. It was very hard. But the story is that after having written You Give Love a Bad Name, which is the first song I wrote with John Bon Jovi and Richie Sambora, they invited me for a second round of songwriting. And John came in saying, you know, I'd like to write a song that's like a story song about, I want to write a song that's like a story song about, you know, a struggling couple that's trying to make ends meet. And, you know, before I had come out, as realizing I was more gay than I was by, I lived with Maria Vidal, who was one of the, we started Desmond Child and Rouge Together, are my group. And she, I would be home writing songs, I had graduated already from from NYU, and I was home writing songs all day, and she was a waitress in a place called Once Upon a Stove. And all the waiters and waitresses, they sang, you know, at certain points, you know, they would sing a song. And so her waitress name was Gina Velvet, so she always came home with the big tag that said Gina. So when John talked about that, I remember, you know, she and I were together four years. And, you know, since we were in our early 20s and, you know, I started thinking about, you know, and my original name is John, you know, so I started thinking about Johnny and Gina, you know, because that has alliteration, right. And so I started presenting, you know, the idea, and John said, listen, I can't sing Johnny because that's my name. Like everybody will think I'm singing about myself, that's really dumb. And we all just sat there and, you know, like Johnny, Johnny, Tommy, what about Tommy? And that's how Tommy and Gina were born. Just like that. And then it became, it all goes down in history. Right. Right. As people identified with that. Yeah. Well, I am very grateful for your stories and your inspiration and the gifts of the songs that you've given us. So I will make sure I tell everybody about the audio book, and we will put up the links for everybody to check it out. Yeah, and follow me on Instagram because I'm on that thing, you know, night and day. I mean, my husband says, like, turn off the phone. But like, I don't want to let my Instagram friends down. So I'm like answering and like, you know, questions and stuff like that. It's Desmond dot child on Instagram. Perfect. I'll tag you in the social media when this comes out as well. We'll make sure that we get everyone listening to the audio book because I can't wait to share it. It's going to be great. Thank you so much. Social media. Yeah, we've got it. Send us an email. Dope nostalgia podcast at gmail.com. Twitter nostalgia dope. All right, Insta. Dope underscore nostalgia. This podcast is licensed by so can because we believe that artists should be paid for their work. Hey, friends. I kind of miss getting those messages on my answering machine like me used to back in the day. What I'd really love is to hear from you, the listeners of Dope nostalgia. This is your chance to be on the show, giving feedback, telling us what you love, what you hate, and who you'd like to see more of. Call us at our new toll free number. 1-888-741-9192. Leave us some feedback. Your message could be played on the show. So give us a call 1-888-741-9192. Tall free.