UK Column Radio
The Gulag of the Family Courts – with Sam Nass
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Now, I'm going to say straight off that if people haven't seen the earlier two interviews that I did with Sam, I'd encourage people to go and have a look at those. We'll just bring them up on screen. This is the first one, traffic, child stealing by the state part one, and then the second one looks like this if we just, sorry, move it on, there we go, is traffic child stealing by the state part two? I'll encourage the audience to go and watch those two parts because we give the full background of how Sam was a self-trafficked, came to the UK, was brought to the UK, eventually was supposedly given sanctuary in this country. And then as she tried to build her life here, although she was able to get her daughter back with her, that daughter and later her son were to be taken by the state. And so we're going to catch up now with what's really been happening with her. So Sam, welcome to UK column, it's lovely to have you back with us. Lovely to see you, lovely to be here again, thank you so much to the UK column viewers and listeners, and for all the support and their amazing comments, their good energy and all the prayers and all the support from all over the world. Thank you. Well, thank you for saying that, Sam, it's always very nice to get some positive feedback and I know that many people were very stunned and a lot of them were quite emotional when they heard the interview that we did together. Of course, I'm going to say that you are one of thousands of moms, thousands of parents that have had their children taken by the state here in UK. And if we're going to stop what's happening, child stealing by the state itself, we've got to get the lid off what's happening and we've got to tell the story about what's happening. Let me just ask you, what can you actually tell us about your children and the court hearings that you've been through? Thank you, Brian, for the question. I'm not allowed to speak about my children. I'm not allowed to talk about the details about the case or anything in much detail. But obviously, I can't talk about the procedures and I can't talk about public information and all those things, yes, I'm not allowed to speak about the details of the children. Right, so this is a really important point for people who may be new to the subject of how authorities, the state itself steals children. But of course, everything to do with those cases around the children for you and other parents is conducted in the family law court, the family law division. In front of a judge, there is no jury and essentially the proceedings are secret. They don't like it if you use that term because they say, "Oh, no, no, this is wrong. It's not secret." Well, it is secret because you're not allowed to talk about it. There is no jury and even if press are involved, the press are highly restricted in what they can and cannot say about court case. But of course, this secretive system is sold to the public as being necessary in order to protect the rights of the children themselves. So the rights of the children, the parents, which the state abuses, it of course claims that it needs to do everything in secret in order to protect the children. I'll just ask you to comment on that because you know exactly what I'm talking about there. I don't think it is really right to say that they're protecting the identities of the children when in fact they advertise children to different magazines when they're trying to find adoption agencies. Personally, I call them buyers. So in that way, you cannot say that you truly are protecting the identities of the children, but also it's kind of reverse psychology to tell us that you're protecting the identities of children from who and from what? I'm very positive that most of the British population in Britain, people are not motivated. They don't wake up every single morning to look for my children to heart or harm them. That is not in a civilized state where I live. So I don't want to create an illusion or people to come and tell me they're protecting my children from who? From what? Not 99.9% of the British population, they love children, they care for children. So why would I protect my children from people who never had to harm them? I'm not gullible. I know there are some people who do terrible things to children, but it's very rare not in the society in Britain. It's very, very rare. It's rare amongst the bulk of the population. You're absolutely right. And this is a very good point that you are not allowed to speak about your children or give details about your children. You're not, in many cases, supposed to be sharing photographs or videos of the children. And yet the authorities, once they've taken the children, use images of those children, as you say, in order to seek adoptive parents, and something which we'll say very early on is, of course, the moment these adoption procedures start, ultimately, money is involved. So local authorities are looking to get adopters for your children, but money will change hands. Is that correct? Well, that is very, very correct, and that is the point where we are at at the moment. I don't know whether I'm permitted to speak about the local authorities involved in my particular case. I think I am because they're public bodies and they're not children, and they're accountable to taxpayers. So the local authorities that removed, unlawfully removed my children are Cheshire Western Cheshire Council and south of the city council. At the moment, we have, when I say we, I mean my family and the community and the people who are supporting me on this case and this journey, we have written respectfully to Cheshire Western Cheshire Council, requesting them to confirm whether there is a conflict of interest between the direct of children's services and the adoption agency. The answer is simple. It's a yes or a no, so that we know whether the decision maker was independent in partial and they were not influenced by any financial interests and all employers or public servants who are working for local authority, they're obliged to tell and not to have any conflict of interest with third parties like those, but we suspect there is a financial conflict of interest between directors of children's services and they are not all of them and the adoption agencies and those, sometimes they influence the decisions they make to place children. Yes, this is a very good point, Sam, and we'll come more, we'll get into this a little bit more in a moment, but before we do that, you've been fighting very, very hard for your children and of course, ultimately what you want is your children back. How long has it since you've seen them? I lost some of my children in 2018 at a contact center. My daughter was crying, very upset because they had started the mind manipulation on her that they were finding her a better mommy, a good mommy, and she was asking them, why? Why can't I live with my brother and why can't I live with my mom? And they couldn't say, I lost some of them in 2018 in somewhere in Greater Manchester, in a contact center. For those who don't know what a contact center looks like, it's kind of an institution really where they keep children, and they allow them to see their parents for a very limited time, and there will be someone in the corner with a clipboard writing every negative thing that you could ever imagine, in most cases, to robust the application or the process of removing that child. So they might say the mother is not smiling, she's not a good parent, and then they would conclude the mother is not emotional, the attuned to the children. Things like that, it's very malicious how they create this evidence, but it's all admissible because nobody challenges it because it's here, say, and it's admissible in family proceedings. Sam, I know from conversations with other mothers how cruel they think the contact centers are, and in some particular cases, there's been some very unpleasant restrictions on both moms and dads that they're not allowed to cuddle the children, they're not allowed to tell them that they love them. And for many parents, they actually said that the whole process of going in, you wanted to see your children, but then when you were with your children, you felt that you were a goldfish in a bowl, sorry, a goldfish in a bowl being watched by other people. They found this so deeply unpleasant that when they got home at the end of the whatever one hour visit or two hour visit, they felt just emotionally devastated. Well, the whole process is not a natural environment. So the fact that it's not a natural environment is an institution, the behaviors of a human being in a natural environment are completely different from the behaviors of any human in a natural environment. So when you put people in a school, they behave differently from when they're in a, let's say, garden or a park, that's a natural psychology. So I don't really know whether they are looking out for the best interest of the children, because putting children in such institutions, when they're just coming from an institution, for example, in my children's case, a school. So my daughter was coming from school, then this contact center, which looks like a school or a small juvenile prison, and then back to the first placement. The whole process is re-traumatizing for children, and it's also re-traumatizing for parents. But when we speak about it, those who are concerned really don't take any notice. They don't care. They don't care about children's interest, as I say, they are more motivated about how much they're going to make on every placement. And yes, the parents who are reporting that the process is traumatizing, it is very traumatizing, it's very disturbing, and it's very terrible for children, because every single time they take the child back to the first placement is also trauma in itself, because the child is now wondering, every single time, why am I going back to this stranger, and why can't I live with my parents? And they are never told the truth, that's the problem, the children are never told the truth by some of these social workers. How often do you think about your children? Every day, every waking minute, every waking minute, every second, yes. And some people... And some people, of course, some people, we know, we'll view videos like this, and they say, "Well, hang on a minute, this mum must have done something. Did you ever do anything to your children?" No, not at all, I've never done anything to my children, I've never had to have my children, I love them so much. Sam, let's have a little look at what you've been trying to do, you've been challenging through the courts, but we're going to get on to that. But you've also been challenging it a bit more of an outspoken way, and I'm really pleased to see that when you've been doing that, you've had some friends around you. So we'll just bring you a couple of pictures on screen, which I took from some of the information you've given me. So this is one of your friends that was having a protest, I've redacted the children's names here. We had to redact the names on this image on the back of the t-shirt and on the ground, because as a media organisation, we are not allowed to name the children. This is the secret nature of the so-called child protection system in the UK. The state gets hold of the children and then they disappear behind a wall of secrecy. So you have friends who've been helping you, which is wonderful, and you've been protesting with banners and this picture here in the sunshine of Enchold abuse now. But again, we've taken the children's names out, and this one was very nice because basically here you are with the full team and some drumming and the banners as well. Where were you when this was happening? We were in front of number 10 Downing Street, Sakyestama's residence. I must say that Sakyestama is our member of parliament in Hobon, London. Right, we'll come on to him in a minute. We've got another picture here of you protesting outside the cabinet office. You've got arrested and we're going to show you that in a video clip in just a minute, but what sort of reaction did you get when you were making these protests? I got a little resentment from the cabinet office because I was at Whitehall. And they didn't like it, but I had my megaphone, and I went to the cabinet office because they make the policies, they make the regulations, sometimes they oversee local authorities. So I wanted to really put a message to them that the things that you make in your offices, this is how they affect the grassroots people, the local people. And I don't think they've ever had a parent at their doorstep before, so I needed to bring the message to them to maybe to have some change. I was arrested, I was told several times by the security officers to stop my megaphone. I was told several times to go home, a lot of disruptors, they try all sorts of things, they try all sorts of psychological manipulations, so you can stop. They try also something, they call the police to come and arrest me. I was manhanded, searched for protesting really, for protesting. I was manhanded and then thrown in the van, which I was stationed. We just look at this little video clip which is outside the law courts. Now I've heavily censored it because you had a big banner up with the children's names on it, but I thought I'd just play it. Because here you are outside of what's supposed to be, is the bastion of justice, righteousness and justice, which of course the UK sells to the world, that we have this wonderful system of justice and people can seek justice and they can obtain justice, but time after time and year after year where child protection issues are concerned, the courts absolutely don't work. We're going to be discussing that, but let's just have a look at the little clip which just shows that you have been there outside the courts. You can always tell the legal people as they walk in and out by the pinstripe suits and the high heels and very tight short skirts and little jackets that the ladies wear. Do any of the legal officials ever speak to you if you're there in a protest outside? No, no, no, no, no, none of them speaks to me. They see, they try to avoid us, try to avoid me, try to avoid my friends when we raise the issue of child protection. They will either say we don't have capacity to represent you or this is not a case that we can handle or deal with. No, they will not speak to you, they will avoid, they don't, yeah, they will avoid, they don't want to muddy their waters, I think with their friends. Yeah, they don't want to get involved. No, you have done a lot of protesting and you've been quite vocal, which is totally understandable. So in this film clip we see what happened when you protested outside Whitehall and that was the first time we've ever seen. Do not touch me, please do not touch me, do not touch me, do not touch me, do not touch me, do not touch me, do not touch me, do not touch me, do not touch me, do not touch me, I haven't done anything. Yeah, it's okay, it's probably not anything. No, I haven't done anything. No, I haven't done anything. I haven't done anything. 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No, I haven't done anything. No, I haven't done anything. No, I haven't done anything. No, I haven't done anything. No, I haven't done anything. No, I haven't done anything. No, I haven't done anything. No, I haven't done anything. No, I haven't done anything. No, I haven't done anything. A process of providing the course of justice and covering up the obvious. Sam, you're a very intelligent lady and you've also talked to yourself. Well, you're smiling, but I know this is correct. I've met you several times and we've had some really amazing conversations. But you've had to teach yourself a lot about the legal system. So when you're making these comments, you have an advantage now that you're not. I don't mean this in a disrespectful way. You're not a simple mum who's got no experience of the court system. You've now been fighting this battle for so long that you've built up a lot of knowledge, not only about the law, but the way the system works. So your judgments and your reflections on the system and its defects, I think on that basis, hold weight. It's not as if you're an uninformed or ill-informed person trying to challenge the system. What's the worst thing that you've... We're looking at this case. There isn't a jury to judge you, so you're not being judged as a parent by a jury of your peers. You're simply being judged by a single judge. And in many cases, those judges can hold the case to themselves so that you can't even sit in front of a different judge. You have been able to sit in front of some different judges. Do you look at them and think some of them have tried to help or do you think no, they're all of the same mold? No, I think some of them have tried to help, but they find themselves in a very difficult position. It doesn't take away the aspect that the whole process is illegal and unlawful, because you cannot preside over a case where the evidence you're relying on is your treasurer. And the previous judge is your chair and the frequent guest speaker, and the lawyer is also frequent guest speaker. So I think it takes away the independence of our judiciary in those aspects. It takes away the fundamentals of the rule of law. Even if someone is very compassionate, very loving, very kind, it strips away the fundamentals of justice, and that's the problem. That's the problem my parents face, and also over the years now we have realized that there is a lot of behind the scenes going on. Text messages, phone calls to try and compromise the judges on what they should do and what they shouldn't do. And in most cases, it comes from the local authorities, I'm afraid. Right, and pressure to get you to back off. One of the things that you mentioned to me is the subject that other black people have been used almost to try and deflect you. Tell me a little bit more about that and what you're experiencing. Oh yeah, they use, so they use black other black people to try and talk you out of the pursuit of justice, either they will use lawyers who are black and Afro-Caribians, or they will try and mimic what you know what is familiar to you. And then they find themselves in a very unusual position because I don't really, I find it difficult to perform to certain things I don't really conform to certain things I have a mind of my own. And I think it's been difficult for some people, for example, even the arrests that you have just seen, they will send a black person to arrest you and to brutalize you so you don't say, Oh, it was racially aggravated. So that was unprofessional and it was unlawful, whether it was the individual is a white person or a black person or an Asian person, the whole thing is unlawful so it shouldn't be done regardless of someone's race. I'll also take you back to the genesis of the whole case plan, the woman who removed my daughter in the first place from a privately funded nursery that we were paying for in Southwood. This is one of the best nurseries in in Greater Manchester it's absolutely beautiful. It's a black woman from the Caribbean's. The reason she took my children, I don't know, I don't I don't know up to now I still ask her, we relooked at all the case notes she had written some of the things that she was writing about my daughter she was copying them and pasting them to my daughter's reports, I have had now some sort of semblance to report her to the regulatory body to see if they can hold her accountable for what she's done, because whether the professional was. I think the council, the council's motive was to see that we got we get hot, but sometimes there is a lack of oversight when it's a black professional dealing with a black family, because of the new diversity and inclusivity. Sometimes, not all the times, sometimes they don't really oversee or reassess or really look at when a black professional is dealing with a black family. There's no oversight, there is no any sort of someone looking independently and objectively to look at what they've written or what they're saying. What happened to me when the social worker was laying down the law and going on a I call it a big massive ego trip and the power trip to show the voices that she was doing something and she used my history of being being a victim of human trafficking against me, which is in itself very sinister and vile and very unprofessional. Sam, you've spoken to me several times about feeling fearful as you've been involved in this battle against the local authority in the state. What have you been experiencing that you describe as making you feel frightened? I feel frightened because south of the city council has tried to silence me. They sent several men to my address to push the first entry in fact to try and threaten me with contempt of court. They've hired investigators to try and threaten me with contempt of court that in fact I should pull down my interviews, I should pull down my Twitter, now X account, I shouldn't speak about the case. But for contempt of court applications to be to how to carry any weight, someone must be speaking something that is untrue, something that is false, that is when you in contempt of court. But for me I'm asking politely the local authority to point out one part which part of my assertions is not true, which part of my evidence is not true. And in those regards they can't really point out, but what I've also noticed is that when they're threatening you, they will threaten you with their local court, because it's easier that way, you know, the behind the scenes will go on and they will threaten you. So they are threatening me with a local court which is Manchester Court with a lot of paperwork from the from Manchester Court, but this case was formally transferred to London. But still the South Food City Council is still violating that order and going behind the scenes to threaten me with all these contempt of court, I have refused, not because I disrespect what they are saying, I have so much respect for our local authorities and our civil servants. But I won't be silenced and intimidated to cover up the child abuse that has gone on for years, it's against the law, it's against our human rights, and it's against everything that Great Britain stands for so I won't be silenced by a handful of people. Sam, one of the incidents that I'm going to say obviously did make you fearful was the delivery of certain letters, which when I was able to see part of it I was I was absolutely shocked to bring this image up on screen it's not of the actual letter, but this is the company that was sending a solitary mail to get actual property. And if you look at the image that's on screen there's a fingerprint top left so you were receiving an A4 sheet with a fingerprint on it. And then a pretty one short paragraph, which was difficult to understand what it said, the English was very poor, and you initially interpreted that letter as being a threat on you, you were very scared when you spoke to me. Who would deliver a letter to a single mum, or perhaps even an older male, which has just got a fingerprint at the top, it was, it was spooky, it was unpleasant. And then finally managed to find out that this is part of a company's logo used by local authority to try and effectively intimidate you this is shocking. When I called out the company publicly, they formed another company, because what the local authority is trying to cover up is that they used a forged birth certificate to get an adoption to get an adoption order granted with a forged birth certificate, a photocopy handwritten birth certificate. Now, for me, this, this reminds me of the story of King Solomon, I gave birth to my child, I want someone to tell me when my child is bath was registered, the audacity from the social worker asking me, can you, can you, can you provide us the original birth certificate. And I'm thinking to myself as a parent, I should provide you the tools to abuse my child. I should provide you, I should provide you the tools to actually see that my child is sold to an unknown person. So for the city council at the time of placing my child, they did not have a certified or regional birth certificate, but obviously everything goes ahead in Manchester, because the, you know, everything is behind the scenes and no one fits nothing and it's just so much of rubber stamping. We will silence how that's the whole idea. They've tried, they've tried. Sam, Sam, I'll, I'll add to that so that something else which many people are not aware of is that within a local authority, not even the elected members can ask questions of child protection, their own child protection services. They can't, they can't ask to investigate cases, they can't look at documentation, because their own social services, child protections team hide behind data protection, so that within the council, those officers, those employees are protected from the oversight and scrutiny of the elected members of that council, which I find truly shocking because it's, it's a secret society operating within the council system itself. Yes, and it's really heartbreaking because they will intimidate the parent behind the scenes, they will say the worst things to the parent because they're after your mind, they're after your soul. Yeah, I think when you say it's a secret society, I believe that to be true because people who are normal would not do sinister things to children and evil things to parents to see that some parents have committed ended their lives because of the whole process which is barbaric and inhuman. Cheshire Western Cheshire Council is, I think, one of the worst at this because they are very good at covering up. They're very, very good at covering up child abuse and it's evil what they've done, because they went as far as going into my emails, and I can prove that I can prove that 100%. They tried to block my emails from sending out emails because I was sending emails to right Honorable Yves Cooper, I was sending emails to the Home Office, I was sending emails to the Ministry of Justice, right Honorable Shabana Mahmoud, I was sending emails to right Honorable Saki Estama to tell them about what is really going on, and I found that they're very good at my manipulation so they started sending me emails about my son in the middle of the night. I just wanted to let you know about your son's application, we have applied for a restraining order, or things like that, or the weekend and send me something very terrible to get me upset and mentally, it's called psychological abuse really, I didn't realize, but now I know. Sam, to be clear here, you're talking about the legal staff from the local authorities sending you this type of material. Yes, and for our viewers, just want to reinforce what you're saying about what you have been doing, you've been trying to contact all sorts of people, so we've got three envelopes here that you sent out. The first one, this is recorded delivery to Kia Storma, the second one is to Lindsay Hoyle, the Speaker of the House, and the third one is to the right Honorable, Honorable Yves Cooper, Secretary of State for the Home Office, so you've sent out paperwork to these people seeking help. Have you had any response from them? What about our Prime Minister, Kia Storma? I haven't heard anything from Saki Estam, unfortunately, up to now. I'm blessed that he's also our Member of Parliament in Holborn. The last time we were in quotes, two press officers turned up, but they didn't even introduce themselves, they didn't know who these gentlemen were. I survived human trafficking. I don't know who is on the call. I'm always very apprehensive about who is dealing with my children's case, and I'm always investigating, I'm afraid. I don't want right Honorable Yves Cooper to say that she wasn't informed about this injustice when she was from secretary. I don't want right Honorable Saki Estam, to say we weren't informed, or nobody told us about this, as it were right now, as we are seeing what is going on in our church, that people were not told, or things were not very clear. I send the letter, it is received, and we keep the record. In times, they will all be notified, because it's rightly so. Saki Estam told us when he was coming into government that he is going to deal with the fundamentals, the foundations, that in fact he's promising us change. For me, I'm expecting change to be justice where the local authorities have failed to provide any form of evidence, and also at a wider spectrum for someone to look at child protection cases with an investigation that is clear, because this is not just about my children, so many parents have been silenced, so many grandparents have been silenced. They can't speak about it. They can't talk about it. They are breaking down. Some of the social workers are so sinister that after they've taken the child away from a family, they will go behind the scene and write to the employer of that family to take away the employment as well from the family. And the parents are left destitute. They're left broken. For me, if you're taking away my child without any verifiable evidence, I truly believe it's organized child trafficking. And I'm so sorry to say it that way, Brian, but if you're removing a child from a family and you don't have any single shred of evidence, and the only thing you're using is abuse of power or silencing parents, I think it's organized child trafficking. I'm sorry. Well, you need some, you needn't, and you shouldn't apologize, because I think you're absolutely right. When I first discovered what was going on around the taking of unlawful taking of children from parents around UK, I quickly called it child stealing, child stealing by the state, and I believe that is absolutely what it is. And it's highly orchestrated. And indeed, it must be for it to be occurring in every single part of the country. So when we talk to parents, what you get is a picture that right the way across the country, these same procedures are used to take children. And ultimately, of course, if the children are put up for adoption, money is changing hands. But worse than that, when children go into the care system, they effectively disappear because the parents don't know where those children are. And therefore, nobody has got real oversight to see those children are safe. And my goodness, there's so much more to talk about. Just focus a little bit on the press because I think this is interesting that some over the years, it's been very, very rare. Occasionally, it's happens that press have got into a family court hearing. Usually, the judge tells them in no uncertain terms what they can and cannot report. But there have been cases where family court cases have then become public. Now, you were surprised to find that actually two men attended one of the hearings. They were both accredited press people. Let's bring them up on screen because this shows that we're absolutely telling the truth here. So, one of them was apparently Callum Park, National Union of journalists. And the second man here was Clive Hammond, reporter. They've both got PA media cards in date. So these people came into your court hearing. Did they ever talk to you? No, they didn't. I'm sincerely grateful that they were there, because for me, I need as many people as possible to be to know about what has happened to my children to my family. And when I saw the gentleman present, I was I was overjoyed. I was so over the moon. But what struck me is none of them spoke, introduced themselves, or told me about whether they will be reporting about what they've witnessed or what they've observed in, you know, according to the law. I didn't hear anything from them. I didn't hear anything from from the gentleman. It's my children's could call private hearing. So I needed to know who exactly was present. They didn't speak to me at all. They didn't speak to you. And do you believe that they ever printed any, any article or report on your court case? No, because we would know if they had done so they didn't. Right. And you didn't invite them into the case. So presumably they were invited by the court itself. And I asked how did the gentleman get to know about the hearing, and they said, once they have, I think it's a license. So some sort they get notified, I think about cases or they can look on which case is going ahead and they can be present. Right. I think it's, this is another terrible, terrible aspect of these secret or highly secretive courts that of course press are being controlled, even if they're letting the press are still controlled and it's normally dirty deeds that are done in the dark. So there has to be a reason why family courts don't want the light of reporting brought into them. Go ahead. Go ahead. Sakya Stama is our member of parliament. He has a duty of care for all his constituents to know what is really happening on a grassroots level. And it is not right. It's a public servant. He was elected by us, by the public. So it is only right that he knows about injustices and miscarriages of justice. If you're telling the truth, I find it strange that, why shouldn't I tell people, if you're telling the truth, you should be, you should stand on a farm and, you know, confident that people should know. Why, what is the secrecy? What are you hiding? I don't know. Well, I think we do know what they're hiding, Sam. I think that your testimony and the testimony of many other mums, mainly mums, but also dads over the years, is clearly bringing this thing to a head that the British state is unlawfully taking people's children. And if you say, why are they doing that, the immediate answer and the simplest answer is because money is changing hands for those children in whatever aspect to the children, whether it's for their care, whether it's for their adoption, or in very sinister cases, because those children are themselves being trafficked into an abusive system where money changes hands. Sam, I'm going to say we've probably got to end there, but thank you very much for speaking to me again. You're a very brave lady. And let me give you the final words. What, what would you like to say to the audience? How do we get this stopped? What would you like to see? For me, and my family, I think we would love to see that the family courts are open, that any member of any member of the general public can go in and listen in as the criminal courts. Because in the criminal courts, alleged criminals have a better chance to justice than our children, than our families. And for the fundamental of the society is known as who are old, it's our children. That's the foundation. And truly, if Sakya Stama is focusing on the foundations and his government, as they say, that they are focusing on foundations of society, then truly they should focus more on the children's courts and the family courts to have a reform, because a lot needs to be stopped and to be changed. I need my children back, and they need me as their mom. So we are not going to stop the seeking and the pursuit of justice, so they know. Yes, I have to say, this sounds a bit spooky, Brian, I'm so sorry, but I have to say it because if anything happens to me or my family or my community, it is those who took my children unlawfully. And we say it with certainty because we have seen things happen in our groups, we have seen strange things happen, but we live in a civilized society, not a mafia state, so we will continue pursuing justice. Thank you so much to the listeners, and to the viewers. So go ahead. Sam, thank you very much, we live in a civil society, which I respond by saying do we, perhaps we need another discussion on that. But Sam, you're a very brave lady, thank you for speaking to me, and we will do our best to make as many people as possible and what is really going on in the child protection system, and what's been happening around your children. So thank you for joining me. Thank you so much. Thank you. [BLANK_AUDIO] You
The UK state has taken your children. Why? You’ve only ever loved them. You have never harmed or mistreated them. Read the write-up at: https://www.ukcolumn.org/video/the-gulag-of-the-family-courts-with-sam-nass