CricViz senior broadcast analyst Soham Sarkhel joins The Last Wicket's Mayank to discuss his journey in cricket broadcasting, his roles with HawkEye and Cricviz, the evolution of technology within the sport and much more.
The Last Wicket
Talking Cricket Analytics with Soham Sarkhel
He heads back, he heads to the back and stands out and stands out at the end of the games! Hello and welcome to The Last Wicked! I'm your host Benny and thank you for joining us. On this week's episode, my co-host Mike spoke with Krikviz, senior broadcast analyst Soham Sarkale. They discussed Soham's journey in Krikit broadcasting, his roles with Hawkeye and Krikviz, the evolution of technology within the sport and much more. Personally, I found this conversation very fascinating and insightful and I'm confident you will feel the same. So stay tuned for more with Soham Sarkale. [Music] Alright, so thank you for joining us. You're one of the few people that I've come across who's had a chance of working at two really important companies as far as Krikit is concerned, particularly in the last decade, Hawkeye and then Krikviz. I guess before we jump into those, let's start with your journey. How did you get started in Krikit and how did you end up in broadcasting? Yeah, first of all, thanks a lot for having me here. Well, in terms of getting into Krikit, I think it is the classic old story, you know, like any Indian boy growing up in the 90s, you want to be a Krikit, or you want to do something with Krikit. And very soon you realize you're not going to make it, they're way more talented looks out there. So the next best thing is how you can associate yourself with the game. And yeah, for me, I think it started with the newspapers, like everyone in before going to school. I will just go to the last two pages and completely ignore the first two. And I think that's where I started reading articles and, you know, just noticing what's going on in the world. Apart from the game that's been played on TV, how it's been covered and also, I think I was very clear, even when I was like 11 or 12 years old that I want to be associated with the game. And in terms of, at that point of time, it was mostly to do with journalism, so wanted to write about the game, but yeah, as the career. So as soon as I graduated from my college, I think I got an opportunity to work with impact index, which was, at that point of time, like, quite a revolutionary, like, stat system. It had its own algorithm and focused a lot on match context. So, and I got the chance to work and yeah, that's all my forgetting, basically, career started as a non-Krikit. And tell us more about impact index. I actually had, and we discussed this before we started recording, had the chance of, you know, working for the company that also was somewhat associated with impact index. So it's funny, I was also, you know, in that phase where I was in college and starting to write and, you know, think about a career and trick it. I didn't end up pursuing it, but, you know, just like that kid and that you were, I was also like, hey, I got to stay associated with the game somehow and that's why I'm doing this podcast. But, but tell us more about impact index, how, what was your role like, how did the idea around impact index come up, and yeah, just, just let's start there. So, so when I joined impact index was already there so I was not there during the conception bit of it. So I think the idea primarily was that how do you rate layer performances, because I think the normal outlook is to look at the averages, the strike rate, and less about the context around those performances, like when did those performances actually come? Did it come in a first inning score when the team was already 300 for three and he just come in and kind of, I mean, it's harsh to say that but start by your way to 100 or compared to you know team is 30 for three, and then you score a mitle 70. Of course, that's worth way more than the first example so, so I think it was. So the creator of impact index he wanted to come up with with an algorithm which kind of his justice to a player's performance, so that's how impact index came up and everything was looked at in context of the match. And every performance basically was judged based on the match situation so which was quite an oval idea back then. It wasn't a big company so so I knew when I joined that I would have like a big role in it because I because there are chances that if you work for a larger organization that you can just get lost in it because you will be a junior clearly whereas in a smaller company so to speak, you have more chance to experiment and jelly gave me like the full liberty to do that and, and also he is the man of like who could see the bigger picture of the game so that helped me grow professionally as well. So, you know, just just getting ideas from him and just toning my skills. So yeah, that was a great experience I worked almost six to seven years with them. Unfortunately never took off like the way we would have liked to for various reasons but he has still still a great experience. Yeah, I remember back in the day reading about and the context to it was obviously the how it was my hero and I remember reading impact index and it said that he's the most influential Indian test cricketer or test pattern maybe it was. Yeah, it was the test, it tests better yeah. Yeah, so impact index came out with that and that's really how it got my attention and I was like oh this is interesting I want to believe in this. And I ended up reading a lot on on that and some of the you know obviously I didn't know the back end or the algorithms and things like that but just how they came up with it and and suddenly first time I was, you know, exposed to something which was passed hey let's look at the average let's look at hundreds that about it has scored and yeah it was definitely felt like wow this is a great idea like this makes so much sense. And, you know, pitch variations things like that all these considering these at that point I don't think anybody had done it forget about, you know, short passing but even niche players were not thinking along those lines so there's definitely a very innovative idea. What was your exact role when you were there for almost six years or were you on the analytics side what what was your, yeah what was your day to take. I mean I was pretty much analyzing the stuff based on the numbers that the system threw up and trying to make sense of it. Why a certain batter for example would rate higher than another batsman in the same system so it was basically going to like a deeper dive into their numbers, and you would always find there is a correlation like for example you brought up the drama which got us like a fair share of criticism as well as appreciation from folks who like proud of it clearly. But, you know, and one of the things was that you know a lot of his runs came from the number three position and that and he backed it up in a time when Indians openers were not that great interest. So it was like always like a make make shift openers are like openers who wouldn't play for an extended period of time because of poor performance so most of the times he came in during the precious situations. And plus, if you look at Indian cricket test cricket history during that period I think most of his performances came in like the series defining matches. So, I mean the Kolkata 2001 match, which was like a, but a pivotal moment in Indian test cricket history, he added an instance to 33. So, yes, so I was analyzing the numbers and of course, after the point of time just looking at the people make the algorithm any better, focusing a bit more on white ball cricket because of course that's the time when this I'm talking about between 2013 period this is this is around the time in the 20 cricket like really cool, like, you know, and there's a lot of emphasis on theta at that point of time. So you're just trying to make sure that the system works fine for white ball cricket and just, you know, it was basically a lot of experimentation and just writing stories based on the numbers that were on screen. That's not a starting start it's also an unusual start because I'm sure in 2013 if you told anybody hey I do numbers for a company called impact index. That's probably not somebody something that people would have understood because, you know, if you if if you told somebody hey I work for, you know, times of India and I write a weekly article, you know, blog for them article for them. Obviously people know times of India and that would be more easy to explain so I'm sure it was a very interesting space to be in sort of, you know, be brand new to it. Let's move on a little bit to your role at Hawkeye for anyone who's not aware, obviously Hawkeye is or innovators are innovations are the is the company that came up with the ball tracking technology. In a nutshell, maybe, you know, just to summarize I think the easy way to describe it is it's essentially tracking the path of the ball using six cameras and I don't know if that's gone up but I think that's how it started. So I think it's a perfect angle and to that points you know the pace of the wall the bounce as it, as it, you know, hits the pitch, things like that and it's revolutionized the game because that's how the whole DRS has come into play. And in fact the impact has been much more than just cricket there they're involved with tennis they're involved with so many other sports. So yeah, share with us how that opportunity came about and and yeah what was your role with Hawkeye. I mean, yeah, so in terms of getting into Hawkeye I think it was it was quite straightforward I think there was there was an opening on their page and I had just applied for it at that point of time. And I never worked in broadcast before that cricket broadcast before that so I really didn't have much of an idea of how the broadcast world works. So, so yeah of course like for the reasons you mentioned like Hawkeye was like again I think one of the companies that was like is very pivotal in like cricket. How cricket is being looked at right now even in terms of the data points it generates like most of the analysis is based on those data points. So, so yeah, just just to give you a brief overview so like for every match, for example, Hawkeye team would consist of around four to five people in the team, and we would be. So if you're covering a let's say a home series India home series will be going to each and anyone setting up our equipment at the ground first of all, and that's a considerable amount of work because, as you said, we have to set up six cameras. And you do a game, and as soon as it's done you pack it up and even move to the next city and set it up all over. So yeah, so you would normally have five people four to five people in it in a team. Would be trackers so they're only job is to make sure like all the systems work properly. They normally have like an engineering or a technical background. And their job would be to track the deliveries that like each and every delivery they have to trigger the system to make sure the track is right, and they would just send send across the track. And they would be speaking now Paul will send it across to the other operator. You will have an ultra operator sitting with us who's, again, whose job is to make sure. The ultra is working fine or to set the interception for every each and every month. And, and you would have another guy who, whose job is the output what, and that's what you normally see on the screen like the actual day is decision paid, played out. So that's that's played out of a PC. And so I was that guy my job was that of an output guy. So it was, it's called a main year that role is called as a main year. So I was doing that so of course the primary job is to make sure because that's the most important thing is to make sure that they'll be decisions throughout correctly on it. And there are no mistakes in them. And the second bit which was my favorite part was to analyze based on all the data that you have, you know, over over a day split. And we're basically talking about loads and loads of data because each and every ball is tracked. So you have the release point, the bounce point, the interception point. This is all matched with like the videos that we have because we are of course capturing video throughout the test match or a one they match. So, so if you can marry both of them, like it's pretty much the perfect analysis tool right. So you can look at anything that happened in the match and you can look at the specific trigger point of a batsman, if a bowler is trying something slightly different it could be based on the tracking data point but it could just be a visual cue. So yeah so my job was to analyze based on all those data points and yeah like making sure the decisions are correct what you see on TV. That's that's an incredibly important role it said you know you're you're making sure what ends up on on television is not, you know, there's no issues with it. I guess how was it as a change because I think at impact and I was more sort of you're building something in the background and then suddenly you are, you know, involved with broadcasting which has obviously major impacts. I guess how does the from a focus perspective, you have to be probably sharp for you know eight hours doing a test match or one day game. How is that as a change I'm sure you know like it back to back days and travel and and going from when you to another all of that must be quite active. Yeah I think that was one of the biggest challenges and I won't only speak for myself but I will speak from the larger broadcast teams point of view as well like I think any job in the broadcast will like it because like immense amount of concentration that like doing it day in day out continuously takes certain amount of skill as well as like mental preparation. So, so yeah, I mean, I mean, first of all like time is like really vital right here because everything is happening so quickly. And even if you are like a couple of seconds late, it's very, very evident everyone's going to pick up on it, especially the people who are working in the broadcast band or you know alongside you there they know that you were slow on that way so even if the casual fans don't get to see it on the TV if there was a mistake but everyone who works with you they'll know straight away if you have, if you're slow with certain thing you know so so yeah I think a lot of concentration and just being calm. I think that's one of the biggest things that I have done just like even even if you think you know it's very and it's a very stressful situation. I mean in two ways about it. You know, just being calm around it and of course like having good people in your team. I think that also helps. So, so yeah, it's just, it's just a completely different beast than to what it was you know just. I mean writing articles I mean that that's a different challenge but again time is your friend there here might not be the case every time you know because you're like really you have to be on the wall each and everyone. And, and I think the other aspect of it which you know I had not thought about until until recently you know I made some friends and in the US who had worked in the service industry and they said their busiest time was hey Friday night or Saturday night and you know, and I was like oh that's the time I was relaxing and they were like yep that is why we only had friends who used to work those crazy hours. And I'm sure like broadcast is the same I come back home from you know whatever, let's say I'm in college and I come back from college and India's playing a you know day night one day game. And that's my time to relax and just sit in front of the TV and just not do much but for you that is peak hours and that could go up till midnight sometimes sometimes later. So lifestyle itself becomes also really different because essentially you're the times you work times you sleep the times you travel has to be is basically what nobody else does. And then you kind of get addicted to it like after a point of time the thing is like when you run to and it's worth of course like if you love the game it's great fun to be working on the broadcast bit of it. You have great memories of it. But, but if the two is like particularly long and especially during the COVID times because you're in bubbles for a long period of time. I think our person is done over like 70 days of cumulative quarantine, you know, you feel that you have to go back home like you need some time off after this. But as soon as you go back home like within 10 days or 15 days you want that high again is you want that rush like if I want to, I want to cover the cricket match again. So, so that's that's quite interesting like you know like how that lifestyle almost becomes like that yeah it is the part of your life now so you can't you can't really help it. So yeah. The way you describe it to me it feels like you know a stock broker a stock trader who's like you know doing high pressure stuff all the time. And they've been added for months at a time and then then did take a holiday but within that we can have two weeks holiday. They're like oh man I can't wait to get back. Exactly. Exactly. And the thing is like especially if you're analyzing the gig and like even when I come back home like I still want to watch more cricket because a I like to watch cricket anyway. So, you know, and me it's almost also part of my job like I need to know what the other players are doing like it has to be good at my job I need to know what they're doing how their farm has been what they're doing well what they're doing badly. It's just cricket all the time which is if you're given that option to me like when I was 10 years old I would have taken it. I'm still taking it but yeah absolutely be thrilled to know that you're watching as much cricket. That makes me wonder like you know do you feel everybody in the industry that you know you come across feels that way because I've always heard you know if you if you follow your passion obviously doesn't feel like you're working and all that. And you know sometimes I think well but would I stop loving my passion a little. I mean maybe you'll love it a little less because it's also work and you also have to focus the stress especially with broadcast as you said. So do you think that came into it a little bit. I mean yeah the first of all that saying like you know if you really like something and you work and it's it's not work anymore I think that doesn't hold to at all is to realize it when you're working on it there's a different kind of pressure. For example I think during the 50 overworld coming 2023. So we had like four different crews like discovering different venues so of course because it's such a big tournament. There can't be one group of people who are doing the entire broadcast. So the matches which I did I think I remember less than the matches which I watched on telly of you know with the other crews were doing because that I couldn't relax and just taking everything that was happening whereas in the matches that I was covering I was focused on all I have to do this and I have to do that it's almost and then I have to come back and look at the scorecard again just to figure out what really happened in the game you know because you're focusing on so micro details that you kind of miss the bigger picture. Yeah. So which is interesting so and then you come back so yeah I mean there are points where you feel of this and it is the reality there's just too much quicker around the world is like impossible to keep a pulse on what's happening across the universe so. But yeah I mean but still I coming back to your first question does everyone in the industry feel the same way the answer is no like I think a lot of the people are kind of you know I think there's there's a fatigue that's that's enough for a certain point of time and I can see that in people who work in the industry for a long period of time but then again you have examples who are like there are there are people who are like equally interested still and true and that that's just fantastic you know because that tells you that because I have that feel like you know if you do too much of this will you reach a point you know where you are like. So I've done so much of it that you know like you lose the joy of the game of it. You know like especially at least what you have as a kid but but then you see other people and they still discuss the game they're willing to discuss the game with you post to working hours that that's how you identify basically. They they're either going to shut you up if you talk about fitness, you know like they don't enjoy this anymore. They are people who are going to discuss more about the game and that's how you identify. That's fascinating. One other question for Hawkeye that comes to mind obviously now we know that you know after DRS has come in spinners have been getting a larger proportion of where it gets through LBW that's something we've you know learned and let's say the last three to four years. After we've had DRS for a decade maybe a little more. When you joined probably the 2014 2015 phase. I wonder what was it thinking inside Hawkeye like were people inside thinking hey we are going to you know obviously there was yes we are providing you know a method to correct decisions, but was there an understanding of impacts like these. Because I think many of these would be you know hard to even guess even though even if you're on the back side of it. I'm not particularly I think I was still our main role was to make sure what goes out is correct so I think the ramifications of it again. Maybe not as much as an operator, like you wouldn't think about it but as an analyst definitely. And even when you're looking at the game for example like on the few occasions that about about the steps outside the creek to a spinner. And you have that 2.5 meter rule right like at which point it becomes on fire score. And so many times you would just think you know that's definitely going to hit the stance and up as before the other is basically compass just wouldn't give those decisions out. And now that you have seen enough ball tracking you know that is going to hit the stance and I'm also very willing to give it now. So those bits are always interesting because you know that this perception is going to change so initially. I remember at the beginning like a person who still not give it like even after the year is like came into it like they still wouldn't give that is out when they stepped outside their trees and you know the ball hits their pads but now it is you see many of them being like really gutsy with their calls that they are going to raise their fingers on that. That's very important because you know I'm being fast called again so. So yeah I mean the ramifications I think you see it over a period of time. But you do get a sense of you know where this might be hitting. Yeah. And speaking of empire's call I know this is something that you know often frustrates people. And I think part of it is they don't they just see the graphic that that is displayed without understanding it so they will see a ball that's clipping just the outside of next time for example. And they'll say well if it's clipping it's out like why is it empire's call. So to somebody who's you know probably understands the technology better than most casual cricket fans. If you could how would you change like how DRS is displayed or do you think there's like just a scope of improvement and how commentary around it goes around so that the common fan the people sitting at home understand it better. And I think personally I think empire's call is fair because I mean it's essentially a projection of what's going to happen when the ball hits the pad you still don't know if it's actually going to hit the stamps after that or not. It's a projection it's not actually happened it's not the truth so and with any technology like they're going to be a margin of error and that's why you have the empire's call. It's a different discussion you know if you want to see or just take out the empire from the human completely and just keep it on the technology which also I don't like because I still enjoy that bit of it like to impress being on down. I mean, and if you look at like the review success I think they still get like 75% of the decisions correct on average. There's quite a lot of you think of it. Yes, and this was supposed to get rid of the howlers anyway that that's how the scheme came into place so suddenly if you're talking about. Oh you know that like just click the top of the bill so it should have been out then those are not how there's any more you're going into the nitty-gritty's of it. And so I like the empire's call as it is I mean, sometimes I do have a problem, not a problem but especially if you're supporting a team and you see two of us call. And you're like oh, two of us call maybe the batter was a bit harder by a bit less or something like that. But one of the problems that I do have with this system as a whole is for example, if there's an LBW shout right and the empire thinks there's an inside edge and he gives it not out. And the filling team reviews it and it goes into the dearest process, the ultra edge comes up and you see that there's no inside edge. So, and but the LBW decision will still say you know it's empire's call, but the presumption of the empire was of the on-field empire was that it had hit the back, but it actually did not. And at that point, I think the empire's call should be reviewed, like the third empire can actually speak to the on-field empire and saying hello, that did not hit the back. So in this case, would now that you know that it has not hit the back, would you have given it out LBW on P and if he says, yeah, that did not hit the back, I think it would have gone on to hit this term and I would have given it out. But the on- path call should change accordingly. It's a very edge case scenario, it's not something that happens often, but it does happen every now and then, which I think is kind of wrong if you think about it, because the on- path call is not based on the LBW anymore, he thought there was no edge anymore. So, you know, so yeah, that's a fascinating point. I had not thought about that before so yeah that is true so if I, if I based on that new information, I can make a correct decision. Then, you know, the ball hitting the edge of the stumps should be actually out if the empire thinks so. Yeah. And I know you mentioned, you know, that empires get 75% of their decisions, right, which, you know, you're absolutely right, that's a pretty solid number considering how fast the game goes and, you know, how fast people are bowling. How have you seen or have you seen interactions with empires because I feel like in the last decade it's changed a lot where a lot more empires are sitting and looking at Hawkeye and learning from it. And that's why to the example that you were giving about spinners or when bats when I was stepping out. There's a lot more LBs now even when bats are step out. Yeah, I mean, I glad you brought that point up I think. I think when we're talking about the elite panel of empires, I think they are very sort of they know how the system works. They know how the technology works and they know how to read into it. My personal experience has been like when you work with empires or just, you know, they've just come up through the grassroots recently. So, they really haven't worked with this entire process. They haven't worked with the others. And they're probably not guys who are like familiar with technology person. So, growing up like when they have empire, like the situations that they have faced, they have not gone through the entire ball tracking system or the ultra system. So, when you suddenly put them in a fun spot, let's say they're doing an international game or even a high profile ideal game. They suddenly put in a spot because this is not something that they have done before. I'm talking about some of the empires here, you know, who are looking at the ultra edges. Sure. And I'm probably specifically talking about ultra edges, the ball tracking is fairly clear that way. Like, you know, there are a certain set of scenarios, but ultra edges probably a bit harder to read. So, I have seen vampires getting a bit truffled by it, especially one, you know. They really don't know how to read that ultra edge graphic, you know, if it was one frame back or one frame forward. So, as someone who's sitting with the Hawkeye guys, I know what they're trying to show. For example, sometimes you will see like there's a lot of murmurs on the ultra edge. A lot of disturbance, basically, even before the ball has hit the bat or any object on the frame. And so at that point of time, sometimes you would see on screen the ultra edge guy basically trying to play it a bit quickly and not frame by frame because when you play it quickly, you can see a deviation or no deviation that way. You would still, like the inexperienced turn up players would still feel, you know, I want to see it frame by frame, but the story is not in frame by frame anymore, like, because it changed the situation to situation. So I just feel like they are a bit over odd by, like, I'm talking about the relative to new ones, of course, like those who are established, they know their job pretty well. The relative to new ones, I've seen them getting a bit present by what's going on. So, and you would want like, you know, again, like when they are coming up, their pathway, like you would want that they have this training when they're, when they're having their normal umpiring training as well. So that's because I still feel like, you know, there's a good scope of having professional roles for the third empire, like, instead of traditionally being like the on field empire who sits in the third empire share, I think there's a scope of having. Trained professionals who know exactly how the system works, and they can probably make better decision. Yeah, and that's a great point. I've read people talk about this and I've never really spent too much time, you know, exploring, exploring this so I want to understand that better so obviously, you know, each organization, whether it's the NCA, whether it's the ECB, they will have a set of umpiring certifications and programs that that people can take part of many former cricketers do and then, you know, they get involved after, after a certain point and, you know, in their career. What would be, if you can talk us to maybe an example or two, like if there's anything, what would be different if we are training a third empire versus an empire or maybe it's like everybody gets trained in both. Are there certain aspects that, you know, third empires focus more on something like that. Yeah, I mean, primarily, I wouldn't know how the umpiring certificates work, like, for example, I don't know if, I don't know if there are courses which already involves these now, like, basically understanding how the system or the protocol works. But just in terms of, like, the system, I think, as I said, like one of the alt-right scenarios, like, you know, when the operator is actually trying to speed it up a bit, he's trying to show there is a deviation. He or she is actually trying to show you, you know, it might, like you might get thrown off by that wave pattern that you see on alt-right, but if you see, just look at the visual bit of it, you can see like there's a deflection. And eventually, I mean, the point is to make the current decision, right? So, but on the manual book, or like, if you are a new third empire, it will be like, "Oh, but I want to see it frame by frame." But you cannot see a deviation frame by frame all the time, especially if you're talking about like 300 frames per second. So, it's really slow for you to pick up a deviation. So, I see that on screen, like, even when I watch matches now, I know when the operator is playing a particular delivery like a bit quicker, I know he's trying to show a deviation, whereas I know for a fact, most of the third empires won't even pick up on it. So, and I think the more you work with the system, again, the more examples you see, the more you know how it works. And I'm even talking about on field calls here, like just to get an idea of what can be in a first call or what's probably missing. Like, I think amongst us, like we always, as soon as there's an little bit of a shout, you would go or missing hitting umpers call. And I think the chances are like if you have, especially work with the system over a bit of time, like especially like when I used to work with the colleagues around me, like most of us would get it right straight away, because we get kind of like a better intuition of it now having looked at hundreds of them. Yeah, so I think it's just that I think it's just getting used to it, just knowing what kind of situation works when. I think that's just it. I think even like normal umpers, I think if they just are more used to the system, I think they'll get better at it. But my only problem is I don't think many of them coming up like in their growing up phase, I don't think they really work with the system that much. Yeah, and it's not too different from, you know, let's say a bowler makes their test debut and they've not really had a chance to have a, you know, let's say three to four year domestic career, they've not really bold. 10,000 balls and first class cricket. You know, that's often set as or actually maybe five to 7,000 balls and first class cricket and that's often set as, you know, the standard is okay yeah this is an experienced lad ready for. Test cricket, it's probably the same for them like they have not had the chance to look at that many balls or that many repetitions to really understand the system, the nuances to it and see all types of variations. And it's not a straightforward thing to resolve because at the end of the day, as you were saying, there's like four people needed to set up a game and maybe like a domestic game may not require all four but nonetheless it requires at least a couple of people and should be told like there's just not enough, you know, there's not enough domestic games where, you know, you can have that many people traveling and that many people covering the game so it might be available in rungies but it's definitely harder at the lower level to have that sort of support and that sort of set up so that you can get them trained that early. Yeah, exactly. I mean, even just thinking back on it like even in I would try to like if you see a waveform like on the extreme list of the same, like you know it's probably something that's come like one thing before than what you're actually seeing on screen. So it's just like there are like small things like these which like gives you, it's not definitive by nature but it gives you an indicator of what happened. So, and you know these only when you have like, well done like multiple games. So, yeah, so just stuff like that it can come only by experience. Yeah. Let's move on to your your work at crickways. I know they obviously use ball tracking data. So I guess it was your all the experience you had at Hawkeye like just enabled that that enabled your transition to crickways and, and were the roles you've played here. I mean, I've, first of all, like I've always been like really interested by what crickways have done in like the cricket and segment. I think like they have kept on pushing the envelope. And so I, I really wanted to work with them for like a long period of time because they were doing like really quality work out there amounts like all the other bloggers because like cricket, I think suffers from a lot of cliches most of the time. It's really important for someone to kind of break out of it and just the few fresh things about the game and what the narrative around this is. So, so yeah, wanted to join crickways and luckily got the opportunity 2023 beginning of 2023 to organize. It's a great team of analysts to work with. So, you learn just by interacting with them. And so I don't even consider like, I don't have to think about this is the work I'm doing. I should probably discuss my work with them. It's just about discussing the game and you just pick up so much stuff from the people around you. And so yeah, and of course like they work with Hawkeye so they have all the ball tracking data coming into their system. So, of course, like having worked with Hawkeye to replace it helps because there are. There are a few data points which it will probably take someone who's, even in the cricket we lose was work for a long period of time but hasn't necessarily worked with tracking data just to get used to it. So, of course, I would say that helped just knowing how how the system works, how the tracking data works, how you're supposed to read into it. So, yeah, and I think the models that they have made around the tracking data. I think that's what like, I find like the game changer is like something like a picture is rich, just like looks at all the deliveries, let's say in a match and figures out, you know, if the bounce is consistent, if it's bouncing more than the average delivery would. And because you have all the deliveries, like, since ball tracking here, so you know, a certain delivery is supposed to behave in a certain way. But as soon as it does not, you know, and you can pinpoint it with a number. So, I think the models that have been created that trick with, I think they are fantastic. So, yeah, so to your initial point, working with how they did help myself with my job like what I do at cricket, but I think what they have built on top of it is, is what the actual game. Yeah, and we'll definitely get into the models. I do agree like those things. So many times when, you know, as a fan, if I can't watch a game, I look at the scorecard and if I look at tricking for trick buzz, whatever my chosen platform is. It tells me a part of the story doesn't feel like it's the complete story. And actually we were recording this on Sunday evening, India time October 20th and, you know, you saw New Zealand go home for a historic test win with 110 for two. And you would just look at that scorecard and think, oh, it wasn't a close game, but there's so much more to it. You know, the two hours that of play that we saw had so many ebbs and flows and, you know, the way the Indians kept it tight and the way Conway and William Young were, you know, fighting to keep, you know, playing that, that, that phase that is just not captured is just not captured as easily in a traditional scorecard so there's definitely various aspects of it which Quickways brings out and those models bring out. But I guess, talk to us a little bit more about like just quick ways and their partnership with franchises and teams, I know they've partnered with you in Pakistan cricket team and you may not be directly involved in those partnerships. But how have you seen that impact, you know, or the thinking of players, for example, because I think that's where cricket is still sort of getting into. Hey, you know, every big player still is like, hey, I still trust my instinct over, you know, somebody showing them things on a spreadsheet. Yeah, I mean, to your initial point like about the models and what you said, you know, 11042 does not paint the true picture. I think one of the most interesting things was that I, as I said, like because we have wall tracking data like throughout the wall tracking. So, let's say if let's say a delivery has strong point five degrees and deviated point seven degrees of the pitch, it is going to fetch a certain amount of runs. So it's like kind of like, what's the expected run of this delivery or if it's a Lexide full toss, you know, like what's the expected average of that ball and it's around 390. So you, if you pull a Lexide full toss, like you are expected to score 390 runs before getting out. So, so, you know, so, so when I watch matches and if I watch matches like I get a clear picture of what's happening, what's not happening, how tough it was to bat and how the goal is Boolean, but it's when you don't get to watch a match. Yeah, sometimes I just come back and I just look at like the expected average, which is what we call, you know, just to know how well a bull and I think one of my, one of the fascinating examples was from the 2021 WPC final, between India and England. I think Jamieson in that match had like an expected average of 22 and a half, which basically means like, you know, he would concede, concede 22 runs to get away. So it's just still quite good. Right. Like, yes, very good bowling average and then picked up like, I think seven tickets in that match. And boomerang that match had an expected average of 20.5 and he picked up zero. And if you see the match, you will believe it like he boiled well, but he was, that's what he would normally say as like unlucky. Right. But now you can actually put a number to it and like saying, hey, this is what actually happened. And I really like that metric that we're like, it's very cool to figure out even in the last WPC final, I think Schugmann Gill got bold by the Scott Bolland delivery, which is just left. And people initially were discussing, you know, that's just bad batting, like you should have played that delivery. But when you look at like the tracking data of that ball, that like, moved a bit, I think in the air, and once it fits like it chagged back in sharply. And the expected average or something. I think it was between two or four, which tells you like, amounts like the best delivery is both like, you know, over it. Like in the ball, talking eat up, probably. So, yeah. So it just gives you a different perspective. And even if you let's it not, if you don't agree with it, I think it still is a good discussion point, because you suddenly have that data and you'll see, oh, like it deviated, let's it more than two degrees of the pitch, like that does not normally happen. So, so more than the optics, like let the data kind of tell you, you know, or this was like actually a really good delivery. So I think that's quite cool. In terms of franchises, I think, yeah, like, I haven't personally worked with any franchise. So, or any teams for Christmas, but so we have worked with various teams. So, we have worked with family capitalists, men and women, women seeing these two finals. We have worked with Islam about the United and the PSL, which they won last year. So, and I think my cousin was the coach and I think he's very much into analytics and data. And this is again like this is not first time experience is what I've heard. But, and I think the experience differs from team to team, because I think a lot of it depends on. How much the coach is willing to, you know, buy into that theory, or your logic or whatever you say, like into data or analytics. So, I think the coach is like by important. And then I think does really buy into your philosophy, like, you know, how data can help their team. So, so, yeah, I think we have like varied success with different teams and it would normally find like. Teams with coaches who are like focused on like data and analytics would probably have like the upper hand, so to speak. I think that could be examples, which I don't know of very, you know, maybe, maybe there's a team which just doesn't believe in data at all and still doing. But yeah, I think personally, from what I've heard, I think it matters a lot of this like buying from the entire management about what you are setting out to do. Right. Yeah, I think the only consistently successful team that I've heard, which has lesser focus on data. I won't say disregard, but they probably focus less is. Yeah, that's probably the only thing that comes to mind where they are more instinctive and they're more about defining roles and things like that. But again, that's me speaking from a distance so I don't know if there's you know, maybe there is like data based decisions on who gets what role and that's kind of why, you know, they may not discuss it on a day today but there's work pre-season maybe that the other interaction that I'm really curious to hear about is just working with Ian Bishop, I know you had a really great moment on on camera but, but, you know, talk us through that moment of course but also just, you know, from, from a fan perspective, he's probably one of the commentators you respect the most. Just with all the research that he does, you know, he's talking about some debutant in an IPL game who has probably paid, you know, maybe a season or two for let's say you be. He will know their backstory and he will know their strengths and just the amount of effort and sincerity that he does. You know, you talked about earlier the people who stay after the game and talk are really the ones who are into it and that that's exactly what it sounds like with Ian Bishop. So yeah, share experience with him and also of course that TV moment. I mean, before I embarked on this tour, I knew that I would get like a very, like I would spend quality time with him discussing the game and I've never really worked with him one on one before this. And of course, like, I really look up to him as a commentator, I think he's absolutely fabulous. So, yeah, once I started working with him and he's exactly the guy, you know, he's the one who discusses the game before and after the game. And he's just so much into it. Like, it's fascinating. Like, and it happens like, especially as an analyst, if you're working, I think your work output is directly related to the commentators you're working with. Because most of the times, they are the ones who can really set you thinking, like the good ones, the good commentators, like they will ask you questions and they'll just be like, Oh, this player does this. But do you think Markrum has a problem to the delivery going? Does he have a problem to the delivery coming in? Like, let me think about it. Let me do my research on it. And once you do it, you of course gain more insight about the players, right? And he would just continuously like ask a person. Like, you know, what about this player? What about that player? You know, does this player have a weakness against left-hand spin? Like, does he go for a single this area? Does he play the sweep shot much on it? And that's what I enjoyed the most. Like, I think before the match started, like, this was like almost every day, I think before the match started, like, this half an hour, one hour before the game, you would just come and sit and discuss the game with it. And I found it so fascinating because, of course, like, in the industry, I wouldn't say all commentators, but many commentators, there is that feeling, you know, I mean, of course they are like legends of the game. So, they're unlikely to like really discuss a game with a nobody, so to speak. Whereas, I think, they consider you an outsider, essentially, is, I guess, the way to put it. Yeah. Correct. So, Ian Bishop, I think the first thing that he did, he came in and he just let me speak for some time. And that, like, that never happened. Like, he's like, what? Yeah, I think he asked me, what do you think about this? And I'm like, wow, like, here's someone who's asking what I think about this person. I think it's irrelevant. Like, for someone like me to, like, comment on, you know, an international ticket on what he does well, what he does. And I offer any ahead you want to think that you know about that player. So, and you have insights to offer. But there's this guy suddenly, like, he comes and asks me, you know, like, Ian Bishop is asking me, you know, what do you think about this player? And there's been a deep dive about that player, what he has done in the past, what he needs to improve on and stuff like that. And suddenly, because of that, I am doing my prep mode now, because I expect these questions to come. So, I am, like, fully invested now. So, like, because Ian Bishop wants to know my opinion about certain players. And this just kept happening. So, you would just come and you would ask so many questions. And I mean, I, you kind of expect that he would be like a horizontal man. And he was, like, above and beyond that, like, absolutely, a treat to work with. And I think the moment on air, like, whatever, when that happened, I think it was, it again speaks to his greatness that, you know, he just wanted to boost someone, like, and he, like, there's absolutely no need to him to do that. Right. So, it's just, it was a nice moment, like, I'm, like, I'm really grateful that it happened that week. But again, I think it speaks more about him than anyone else. Yeah, that it takes a great man to make sure the people around him who are doing good work are recognized. You know, that's a great leader to have. And yeah, we'll definitely, as we share this podcast, share that moment. I think I saw it on your Twitter, so we'll make sure to plug that in as well. Let's talk a little bit more about the models. I know you touched on it. You know, expected wickets, expected runs, and just like you said, you know, they're great tools. So, when was was another one that, you know, like the Gabba win, for example, everybody knows now that the win was prediction at the start of the 50 was 1% for India, which really helps to find the magnitude of that win. And so there's all these amazing things that trick was doing. What is, you know, I feel like one area that I haven't seen as much and maybe there's things happening in the background is field or positioning and tracking around that. Do you think Rick was or other other companies are also focused on that but there's probably not as much, you know, and a model like expected wicked that just the fans can see just yet. I think we could have like another episode just talking about how it just does not exist in the cricketing world. I mean, we are trying a lot to like capture as much as possible. But ideally, what you would like is like really like all the players all like all the nine outfit in this to be listed for each and every little bit because I am sure like with the day that data starts coming in, I think that's going to revolution and cricket again. Because suddenly you're like on slow ball outside the off term. This is the field you go for or if you have a square leg up for this matter, he ever is this much compared to this or striking at this. So I think we still have a leg tab into that data at all. We are trying to capture as much as possible by looking at the broadcast, but I think in terms of just having the data. You know, there are a couple of companies. For example, if you have seen the fielding plots appear on cricket broadcast. Yeah, like where they show you the field. So the people who are capturing that. I know at the start of that system, they did not capture any fielding position, which was kind of a waste because if you're, if you have a camera that gives you a bird's eye view of the ground, you should be able to capture him for each and every delivery of the position was. I think they have started to log some of it now, and I hope that comes into some into the domain somehow. Because I mean, the biggest challenge is that you need a camera is just gives you a bird's eye view for each and every delivery which you do not get normally. For all games for sure. Yes. Yes. So it's very hard to get that and to cover each and every game so that the data means something, you know, because even if the lack of sample size is just going to ruin people's perspective of like, you know, how database things work. And you have to be careful about like sample size and all that stuff here but yeah, I think you just like the. I mean, I have a personal gross like I have just like, because there's so many times, you know, like how feeling data like you just don't have enough. We just don't talk about it enough. So yeah, once it comes in, I'm like, I'm really excited to see how cricket shapes after that. Yeah, and I feel like I've recently for the Pakistan England series, I was watching some of the highlights from that PCB had shared where. Change of free the some of the other bowlers are running in bowling and in the nets to Babarazzam and they're all wearing catapult. West on top of their jerseys. And I think that's sort of heading to that direction at least that's like one of the aims to see their positions and and. You know, heart rate, a bunch of other data as well like not just positioning data that would help with feeling but also their performance their recovery things like that, which is also another edge which previously we've explored with John Gloucester on the show and then from a physiotherapist perspective. We've seen Indian cricketers or at least I've noticed in cricketers where like a device at the back here on, you know, just below just above your back so that it's that's also tracking your positioning and how much you run and fatigue and things like that so. I think there's already variables out there which potentially could be used as well, you know, so there's, you know, multiple things that's that's possible. And then one other thing that I always think of is, and I don't think it's happened that much recently but I remember growing up, we would have, you know, a team that and as bowling well that says he can't running in and bowling well. And he produces the edge but it falls just short and you're like, Oh, why did why does it keep falling short of the slips what should what is the right place to stand. And obviously today it's just a picket keepers instinct maybe there's, you know, an experienced first slipper who just has an idea based on the bowlers, pays based on the venue. And maybe how's hard the batsman will slash you know that sort of context that they're just going to position themselves but similar to expected wickets and expected runs it could come out of a model. It could be a lot more, a lot less instinct and a lot more scientific. So yeah, I think I think that's where maybe that's the next, you know, big wave that comes in and that might change forget and ways we don't we don't we haven't even thought of. I think I think the day of feeling data comes in, like, you know, positioning data comes in I think we are just in for a treat, especially as an analyst like you just look at the data and just try to figure out, because I'm sure you would be asking so many questions of it. Like, how do you even read that like how do you make the best use of that data. So, yeah, I'm really excited the day that happened. Awesome. Well, some you've been generous with your time so I really appreciate it. It was absolutely fantastic talking to you and getting perspective from from the other side. I hope you come back and hope you come back soon when that feeling today does available I'm sure we'll have a lot more to unpack and, you know, maybe one or may not be enough that next time. I mean, thanks for having me lovely having this chat with you and yeah, thanks a lot. Thank you for listening to an episode of The Last Wicked. Do check out other episodes on your podcast app of choice or at TheLastWicket.com. This podcast is the Cricut Guys production featuring your hosts, Benny and Mike. And if you enjoyed this podcast, do let a friend know, rate and subscribe on your platform of choice. Follow us on your social media feeds and leave us a voice message. If you would like to share your thoughts with us, thank you again for listening and from all of us here at The Last Cricut, stay safe, stay healthy. [MUSIC] [MUSIC] [MUSIC] [BLANK_AUDIO]