Minding My Manner Podcast
Young, Creative & Called
Hey y'all, it's time to put diplomacy back into the public square, where differences don't have to mean discord. My name is Chris Brown, I'm a pastor, former Goldman Sachs wealth manager and financial planner. And y'all, I just might lose my manners, but that's okay, as long as I'm minding on me. Let's get into it. Welcome back to another episode of mine in my manner. I'm your host, Chris Brown. We have a very special guest with us today, Keith Reed Jr., Pastor Keith Reed Jr., excuse me. And we're just going to be talking about this intersection between Christianity, culture, faith and culture. There's a lot of ways in which you've grown up as a pastor's kid, me growing up as a deacons kid, being so church-ed. Amen, but also just growing up as regular people, like our lives are not all about the church, we're Christians, you know, everything about us is covered in the blood of Jesus, amen. But we also have regular interests, like we have regular lives, we have regular bullies or we're the bullies, like we grew up more regular, while at the same time grew up all church, you know. So talking about that, tell me a little bit more about where you grew up, like how you grew up. Let folks know a little bit more about like who you are. Wow, bro. Yeah, man. First of all, thank you for having me. Yeah, man. Love to have you here. Yeah, my name is Keith Reed, born in Philly, I would say grew up majority, I would say like 75% or 60% Jersey, the other 40 here in Philly, my mother had family, everybody was here. Yeah. And yeah, man, I'd say that I literally, I grew up in like two different worlds, maybe even three. Okay. You got, you got church, then you got Philly, then you got suburbs. Yeah. Yeah. So you don't really, sometimes I have the kid like, you don't really know who you are because you're, you're around this group of people, a good amount of time, then you're over around with this group of people around to my amount of time, then you got church. Yeah. Like who, where do you call intersection? You was co-switching like crazy. Listen, bro. What? And like the lacrosse polo shirt. Yeah. Okay. The, the, the slacks. Yeah. And then come to Philly, you got to put a do rag on, you know, forget the buttons. Yeah. And the butt with the buttons, bro. Then you get the church. You got the white shirt, black tie, like, so a lot of, it was a lot of going on. Yeah. Going on. That's a lot. But yeah, man, I'm here. I'm, I'm in the mix by God's grace. You know, he's got me in a lot of different spaces and creative space, fashion space, industry things, church space, like I'm here for all the things, bro. So we wanted to have your biggest formational moments, the things that kind of like shifted like your mentality or where you thought you were going or it could be for the, for the, for the good or for the worst like. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think two things. One, what shifted it for, I guess, for the, for the worst, but ended up being for the good. Yeah. Well, so I mean, when I was a kid, there was a big fight that happened with me and my friend, and at that point, this is when I realized that, um, listen, thug life was not for me. You know what I'm saying? Like, thug life was just not for me. It was painful. It was like, it wasn't a thing. So experience that. And I was just like, yeah. Now this ain't the vibe for sure, then go to college. Mm hmm. Went to college for one thing. Yep. I felt like one morning God just like took all my superpowers away from like what I wanted to do. And we're just like, yeah, now you're not going to do what you want to do. Yeah. Would I call you to do? Yeah. You know, and so that trajectory, that change has been an interesting journey from then till now. Yeah. And being able to be in the spaces, but then like almost like be in, but not of the spaces that we're in. Sure. Trying to be in the mix of that aspect. Absolutely. Um, but yeah, between those two things, bro, it's like, and it's always like a higher calling. Like you get pulled a little bit more asked for a little bit more of you. Yeah. So that's like time. That's, I would say those are a couple of the things that really are changing the game of things. For sure. For sure. So it's actually, we had kind of have some crossover and I had a college journey too. I had a full scholarship tomorrow on scholarship. Full scholarship. Yeah. That's tuition, room, board, everything. Yeah. Food. And set. Yeah. Sets. But I just try to get involved in so much stuff like I wasn't even like I went off and like and lost it. Yeah. It was just, I just went off and I just want to be a part of everything. I was so sheltered growing up in a way, like, you know, we both went to grow up on the churches in West Philly and like down the bottom, but I'm over in Sheltonham, like it's still in like a diverse area, but I had a world of different experiences, you know, myself. And so when I got down to Atlanta, I'm like, whoa, what is this, you know, black mecca. So I'm trying to be involved in student government, step team, glee club and on the choir, like sports. Wow. Oh, wow. And just lost sight of, you know, why I'm down there, you know what I'm saying? And so like God had to take me out of that situation and, you know, by God's grace, still got a degree. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. My God's grace still became professional. Yeah. You know, man, a little bit of money. Yeah. You know, by God's grace, but, you know, it's amazing how, you know, God will take, you know, our, this, this resume that we think that we have will take it into a space and then he'll totally disrupt whatever we think, you know, we have going on. So that was my story. But when you were telling yours, like, I couldn't help to feel like it really reverberates. Yeah. Come on. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. So what are, what are some of the, the things that you think are, well, let me, let me put it this particular type of way. So there was a, a celebrity who recently got indicted for, for some things that he did or allegedly had, have done with hundreds or thousands of bottles of baby oil that were found in, in his crib. And I'm, I'm, I'm just wondering, you know, can we even make ditty jokes? Let me, let me, let me talk about like, go, is going, is it going too far? Cause I think we talked about, like, can you go too far with, did he just, let me, I just bring it back. Yeah. Can we make ditty jokes? Like, is that even in like acceptable territory or is it just like, yo, you can't say that. We can't go there. Like, like, we can't, we can't do that. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like, what is, what is that about? How do you feel about that? Man, I'll say this, bro. It's like, as, as, for me, as tempting as it is, because I'll be like, what, especially with the internet, like, yeah, internet will never lose. Yeah. Like, it will never lose. Yeah. Yeah. Um, as tempting as it is, I, I, I always have to remind myself, yeah, is that, you know, uh, it's cool to, it's cool to joke and I'm preaching people can take joke, but it's like, we have to understand like these are also still people. Right. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I know. Yeah. Like, reckless. Yeah. Get your old reckless old people, bro. You don't know them. Like, you know, but then, you know, there may be a point in time where he may, I don't know, be connected to a funding situation that's needed to happen. Yeah. You know, now you feel like a jerk because you went crazy on the internet and now you, you're out of luck. That's crazy, man. Like, I don't, I don't even, like, like you said, like, you might get a little good something, you know, I'm saying, like, there's a line, I would never be the author of a Diddy Joke. Yeah. Okay. I'm not putting it out there. Yeah. For it. I'm not creating the content. For sure. Yeah. If I'm real, I might just have a little chug of a little lamb. Yeah. Maybe I might share it by wife. Be like, yo, babe, this is funny. Yeah. I'm not putting it. I'm not originating. Yeah. Now I'm not complicit in the Diddy Joke. If I laugh at it, I mean, I mean, it's hard not to laugh at things that are funny. It's like, you know, like, oh, that was kind of messed up, but it was also funny, you know, so. So I mean, but at the end of the day, like, I do think, you know, there are very, that we should be like, you were saying, like, we have to be sensitive. Yeah. To people like, do we almost have to be more sensitive to people we don't know about stuff we say because of how it can be taken, you know, out of context or just like we're contributing to, you know, a culture of, you know, cyber bullying or all these other different types of things. What do you like? I feel like for me, like, it's very important, like, whatever I put on, on social media, that it's not going to be misinterpreted. Like some stuff you can't help. Yeah. But as much as it depends on me, like, I did everything to kind of things through. You know what I'm saying to be like, yeah, this, I'm a, I'm doing my best. This, this to make sure this is a misrepresented or whatever. So we just going to have it, let it flow, post it, make us it because I don't think we should be in a situation in which, you know, we should tip toe around everything that we're putting on social media because it's just like how we talk. Yeah. You just have conversations. We, we, we converse with people, we engage with folks and we're just our natural selves. Yeah. And by being our natural selves, sometimes we're going to, you know, mess up some folks is, you know, category, shake your categories, but at the same time, if you had enough time to think about it, you know, and that is the difference with social media, right? You have time to think about stuff. Yeah. You have time to like actually take inventory of what you're about to put out there into the world. And so like before you actually hit post or save or submit or whatever it might be, like did I actually go through all the ways of thinking about what the implications of this are? You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah, bro, I mean, I think at some point in time, like I think that we all have at some point, you know, whether it was offensive or it was like something that we just didn't mean. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I think as far as I mean, you talk about like, do we need to be, should we be like more sensitive? Yeah. I'm telling people, I think it's more about also just be as more aware. Yeah. Like you said, like you know, you know when, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're drawing, you know, like you know, when you're, when you're crossing the line, you know. And because I mean, God will tell you, it'll convict you in it, you know. And so we, if we choose to go further, then it's like, all right, now you have, whatever comes back at you, like you're pretty much warranted for all the things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, as long as we're aware of like what that is, I think, well, I think we'll be just fine. So I think it's safe to say, you know, y'all out there creating the Diddy Jokes are wrong, but yeah. Wrong. Stop putting out the Diddy Jokes. Funny, but wrong. It can be funny. You know, like the crossover with that and like us says, you know, ministers and pastors, it's just like, like if you're delivering a sermon, yeah, don't you got to do the same thing in some ways? Yeah. Like you had time to prepare to sermon, to sit in the sermon and, and all those different types of things and like, I don't think we can afford to be sloppy in the pulpit. You know what I'm saying? Definitely. We definitely can't afford to be sloppy in the pulpit. I think that the, I mean, the pulpit is probably arguably the scariest place for anybody to be. Um, I personally, it's like, man, it's like, every time, like I, every time I have to be in that place, yeah, it's the scariest thing. Yeah. The scariest thing, bro. And it's like, I, I, that is when I truly like, if I'm ever at it, any type of submission, like, yo, God, this is what, like, I'm hiding behind you because if I say something great, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're not coming for you. I mean, it didn't really come with me. They, they're coming for me first. Yeah. They didn't know you. This is why I don't lie. Yeah. So, so yeah, like we definitely got to be on our, on our P's and Q's. But if you stayed it on that text, oh yeah, you know what I'm saying? Show. If you stayed it on the text. Stand on it. Ten toes. If you are pre meditated about what you are saying, think of through clearly what you're, what you're going to say. That's not, that's not to say, you know, some stuff ain't going to slip in. Yeah. But we have to come to the text with an offensive humility, you know, that we're not going to, you know, that we're not going to end up saying something that's totally different than what the text is saying. Yeah. And that could offend somebody. Right. Yeah. And I feel like, you know, there's some crossover with, you know, how people approach, you know, social media, because that is your platform. Everybody has a platform. Yeah. That is their pulpit. That is our pulpit. Yeah. Like everybody almost has a pulpit now. Yeah. Like Christians, you got to use your social media platform like it's your personal pulpit. Yeah. In some ways. You know? Yeah. So anyway, I mean, I'm getting too much into my bag. Listen, no, listen, listen, go deeper. Okay. Go deeper, man. Because I mean, you said something like, it's like, you're talking about like not, you know, standing on what the context of the word is saying. Yeah. But then it's like, also what you say, man, it's sometimes it's like, the word is offensive. Yeah. Absolutely. And so it's like, you got to stand on that, be like, yo, listen, if this is where you feel like God leads you to share, you know, stand on 100. You got to stand on it. 110%. Like, because you ain't saying he did. Yeah. And that's what you go. Always go back. Right. I'd say this. Like, yo, I'm going to preach the whole council, you know, I'm already got so I'm going to lift up everything that from the word of God that he's called us to preach to and I'm not going to back down from it. Yeah. Like put it out there because I might offend some of y'all, but I guess what I'm offending you for the right reasons. Nothing long. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's in love too. And it's in love. And so as long as we, you know, couch and stuff and in love that we're being very conscious about, you know, what we're actually putting out there, like we can kind of lean on this, even if we do make a mistake on how we deliver it. Yeah. What specific words that we use and what and what we were saying, but it's hard. That's hard work. Yeah. It's hard work. It's intentional work. And that's kind of what this podcast is all about is like, yo, how are we being intentional? You know, with everything that we do, like if you're using your social media and that's your personal pulpit, be intentional with that thing. Like, if you're a pastor and you're on the pulpit, like be as intentional as you can be to not make sure it's a Saturday evening, you know, explosion, it makes you wait until the last minute to, you know, to write your whole sermon, you know what I'm saying? Right? Prior proper planning. Yeah. You know, if it's the same thing that somebody in a NFL does or NBA does, watching tape or film, practicing moves at the moves, like there's an intentionality to life that I think a lot of us get away from. Yeah. Where if we're returning to that, we can feel very have a lot of integrity about how we went about life. You know what I'm saying? Sure. So one of the phases that you find, you know, yourself in, you know, right now is as a younger pastor, you know what I'm saying, you've been passing for how long you've been passing? Man, that's a good question, bro. I mean, shoot, I've been in church for a long time. Yeah. So, I mean, maybe, like, I mean, I've been speaking like youth pastor maybe since like 2000 and, said, then, like, yeah, seven, between seven and 10. All right, man. You're coming up on 20. Doc, we're going to learn today. Look. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what's up, man. That's what's up. And I know that's been a bit of like a journey, like a continuum journey for you in terms of, you know, being a pastor's kid, like a mega church in Philadelphia. Many people coming in through the doors, people leaving through the doors, coming in, staying for a long time. Some people staying for a short time, creating havoc with all the bags that they're bringing in. Amen. Yeah. So you've been on this, you know, journey being the lead pastor's kid and having to deal with a whole bunch of the ins and outs. Talk a little bit around where you are at, you know, kind of right now in terms of lessons learned, those different types of things. Yeah. Bro, lessons learned, bro. Lessons learning. Yeah. Lessons learning. I'll say this, it's like, you know, being, it's, it's wild. I think that the biggest lesson is, I wish I would have said, I wish, I wish I, I wish I, my yes would have been sooner. And I wish that I was more intentional with my yes from the beginning. Yeah. Like, cause I think when like God calls you to things, it's like, yeah, it's like, it's like one of those things where it's like you, someone calls you, you answer the phone. Yeah. I see you, but you're not responding. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? You're just sort of kind of like, uh, I got to see, I got to see, I got to see, you know, but you answered the phone, you know, versus like, yo, this is what's going on. This is what I need you to do. Like, all right, bet, like let's, let's do this. Let's do it. So I think that like, in those moments, I think that's probably like the biggest lesson. Yeah. Um, uh, and also the, the next lesson, bro, it's like, um, not, uh, relying on myself. As much. Yeah. Thinking that I have, I have to do everything, um, that, uh, I am going to be, uh, or that I, I guess, I mean, being a PK, it's like you, people to ask you, like, oh, are you going to be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, do this and said, and I did everything I could to sabotage me not doing. Yeah. So what it is that I'm doing right now. And, um, so even in those moments, it's like, it's, it's, it's, it's God is continually showing I'm like, a listen, like that you are going to have to rely on no one else but me. Mm. You know what I'm saying? You're at the trust. No one else but me. Like it's not going to be how cool you are. It's not going to be, you know, because you can cool you have a gift like connecting with people and by with people, but it's going to be my spirit, my power is going to lead people to what it is I'm trying to get to. Yeah. Yeah. You know, what's interesting that you talked about, uh, that you did everything that you could to run away from, you know, uh, where you are, you know, right? Now talk a little bit more about that man self sabotages is a thing. Yeah. It is a thing, bro. It comes in different forms, uh, it comes in procrastination. Uh, it comes in, uh, perfectionism, uh, and, uh, just overthinking things. Uh, and I think that, uh, for a long time, it's, it was everything was, I mean, a fear kind of a, a base thing. It was like, you see, you know, what, uh, like I see what like my father has, our God is able to use my dad and different capacity and it's like, wow, like seeing his journey from this to this, you know, and it's just like, wow, like, and what am I supposed to do? Mm hmm. You know what I'm saying? And so sometimes seeing that, yeah, made me be like, well, you know what? I actually don't even want the weight of, you know, uh, the expectations of people. Yeah. And actually it's going to probably do my own thing, you know, I'm going to venture off and I'm going to figure out like what you, I think this, this is what happens. You, we lean more into our, uh, our passions. Yeah. Um, versus like the call in which God has been calling us to do. Yeah. So granted, like a part of my passion, I'm still in that space. Like I'm, I'm a creative. So like I'm, I'm, everybody is, but like I'm, I'm in that creative space as far as like fashion, clothes, TV, those kind of things right now. I know that I have a gift in it, have an eye for it. Yeah. And, um, uh, and I think that, uh, so I leaned more into that versus the call in which he was doing. So over time, I just lean more into it and then ultimately it's like, yo, guys, like actually you're not going to do as much as you think you're going to do unless you do what I call it you to do. Yeah. No, that's good. That's good. What was really interesting is, um, I think growing up, I'd say at my church, we, at my home church, we never really encouraged like young preach, like there was a huge gap. Yeah. Between like preachers who were like 45 and 50 just getting licensed and then like there was me. Yeah. It's 27. Yeah. And like it had been so long since a young person had been like licensed or me, said my church. I don't think that's the way it had been the whole time or it just, the churches hit a certain phase. And so for me, I just didn't really have that example, you know, of a young preacher pastor, you know, at, at the church that I could really model, model myself after. Yeah. And so when I was kind of sensing, you know, God's call, I didn't really have any thing to, to connect it to, because I hadn't really seen it. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And so one of the things that I think, you know, held me back is that I probably got, first says God's call when I was like 17, 18, but I didn't, um, go to seminary and really start, you know, trying to pursue God's call as far as, you know, a pastoral calling until like 26. Yeah. Wow. And I was 10 years that I was, you know, kind of running and during that time, I was kind of acting up a little bit, you know what I'm saying? I started re-enrolled from Morehouse now at Westchester, was doing the gospel choir, but was also doing, you know, parties and all this other different stuff. And so like I was trying to kind of have it all and live this, you know, very blended lifestyle, um, and perhaps that's part of what God was waiting for me. Yeah. Yeah. So I come out of this double minded, you know, lifestyle so that, you know, it's not just about, you know, Kris being nice or Kris being kind, or, you know, these things that my personality is very, you know, Christian like, but what about holiness, you know, what about righteousness, what about, you know, um, dog endless purse, a dog pursuit of God and his heart, like, and those are the things that really probably was a good holding back of me in terms of, you know, me actually going after and yielding to, to the call and God, God had in my life. So you know, it's interesting God waited out all that, yeah, until he introduced me to my wife. Yeah. Until I started seminary, like all of the best things in my life right now started happening really only after I truly submitted myself to God and his, and his holy, not even just a call. It was really more so about just my love and pursuit of, yeah, all the best things happen after that. Yeah. Speaking of my wife, you know, I'm saying like, uh, I know she don't have a, you know, wet away, you know, on your, on your fingers, yeah, you know, so yeah, talk, talk, talk to me more, more about that. You know, a lot, a lot of people were, you know, past, you know, pastors, that's funny. You know, I ain't got, you know, a significant other. So, so what's up, man, uh, yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's a lot of different things, bro. It's, uh, you know, it's, you know, about becoming the right man. Yeah. Um, I mean, it's one thing to have like your idea of like where you see like God may be taking you and it's like, yo, I want to be that, you know, uh, before I do this kind of thing. Um, I mean, I think it's about, uh, I think it's that plays a part into it and plays a part into like, yo, it's actually maybe you don't need to be that all the way. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Absolutely. You know, it, it, that's as long as you're on the, the journey to, to become it, know what you're saying. You know what I'm saying? Coming is a thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So then it's just like, man, then it's all, all it's about like, dang, like what, what about the, uh, stability aspect? Like, yeah, you, you can, you can, you can support yourself. You can support this. But it's like the level of like you want to do it. Right. You know what I'm saying? It's like, I don't want to do it unless I can do it at this level. Yeah. Um, you know, and, uh, yeah, man, it's just like, and then like this understanding, uh, you know, that like, bro, like you're number one, you're not going to have it all together. Yeah. And, uh, number two, like when you stumble upon that person, um, hopefully they have a level of understanding, uh, that, uh, maybe you, they understand what, what path you're on with journey guy that you're on. And it's like, yo, I, I want to rock with you on this. And I also want to rock with whoever that is on whatever they got going on. Yeah. Hey, man, when I, when I first started dating my wife, um, probably within six months, I lost my job. Mm. Mm. It was strong. So I, I lost my, I lost my job. The job that I got, um, three or four months later, uh, I was getting paid like 60% of what I was getting paid for first job. And so like, yeah, so my first job, my, uh, I was getting paid 37. Mm. So the new job that I was getting paid like 24. Mm. Yeah. That's a lot of money. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm trying, I'm trying to date to, to, to, uh, I'm trying to court, yeah, the purpose of marriage. You know what I'm saying? Like I told you I'm on my holiness. Yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. But it's time, you know. And so, you know, by God's grace, you know, I, I had the right one, you know, and, you know, we're in a much, you know, a different place, both of us in terms of, you know, career and those different types of things, but if I was going to let, you know, those things that seem important to our culture, yeah, kind of getting away, yeah, I would have never moved to the, to the next level with her. So I think what, you know, was my encouragement with my wife is, I let my commitment to her. And to what the Lord wanted really determined the progress of the relationship. Fire. Instead of kind of reading the tea leaves from what, you know, culture is saying is significant. Yeah. And letting that say, okay, you're not ready for this, you're not ready for that. Man, there's a, there is, you know, a pastor that I know who left the city of Philadelphia to go to Midwest City. And when he and his wife got married, they didn't have like coins to rub together. They had their, their reception in the church fellowship hall, like it was not a very expensive wedding at all, but what they're doing, how they're pursuing God, where God has brought them now. Yeah. Like kids, like how I'm saying God is faithful to them. Yeah. Like God will make room. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Not just for the gift, but God will make room for a relationship too. Like if the relation, because relationally, if that's where we find our treasure, yeah, that's where I think God will, and if it's the right relationship too. Yeah. So if we pursue the right relationship with, I think someone that God wants us to be in relationship with, he'll provide all the things that necessary in order to sustain that relationship and make sure that flourishes. So that's the kind of, that's hard. I know a lot of people don't want to hear that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, bro. They don't. They don't. You know, you know, it's crazy about that. Yeah. Is that, I mean, it's the, I guess the, the context or the big idea of what you were sharing is just like man, it's all about seeking you first. Yeah. The kingdom, bro. Yeah. And all these other things, man. Yeah. And it just took me back to like the different stories in the Bible where like there are people saying, oh God, I want to, I do something to follow you. Yeah. And it's like, or Jesus calls them like, yo, come with me, but they say, first let me go. Yeah. Buried my dad. Yeah. First let me go. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And it's like, yo, if you really understood, like what the kingdom was and who it is that you're actually following, you wouldn't be worried about your, not, not that you don't care as disrespect, but like you would have a totally different perspective and honor of like, yo, I actually, if I need to do this, you know what I'm saying? I need to do this. Yeah. So no, that's good. You preach it now. Yeah. You know, that's not a preach, man. So I, so with regards to, you know, you preaching and pastoring and all these different types of things, like there is a certain level of that I think ambition that pastors have. Yeah. And maybe even have to have in order to effectively pastor. Now when I say ambition, I don't mean it necessarily in a negative way. I mean, it very much in a neutral way or potentially neutral in that if you're establishing a church, hopefully you're establishing a church that will see, you know, people come to Jesus. Yeah. Live's transformed that you'll see people holistically in their life, then submit each and every area of their life to Jesus Christ to their spirituality, their, their mental health, their financial wellbeing, their marriages and their children. Now all these different aspects, you know, are all being subsumed under the lordship of Jesus Christ. Right. Yeah. And so, but in order to do that, in order to create a facility to establish all that, there's certain wants or desires that you have as a pastor that you kind of have to submit to the Lord, but how do you balance that, man, like, like, what is that? Because to do that cost money, you need maybe a building and you need people in the seat. Yeah. So all those things are kind of necessary in order to facilitate that. How do you not get focused on that? Yeah. I think things in the right perspective. Man, that's a great question, bro. I think that a lot of, it's so easy for us to get caught up of the picture of what cool church looks like, what things are in there, what's going on in there, versus, like, why are we here? Yeah. I think that, you know, I like to, like, all the things, whatever the things are, what lights, you know, and, you know, whatever it is, like, all those things are amazing. And I think that they're all needed and qualified, like, to be a priority. But also at the same time, let's not, I think it's important for us to not do what we're called to do because we don't have XYZ. And I think that sometimes, I would even say, like, even when it comes, like, for me, as, like, even as a creative, you know, it's like, you know, I have an idea of what this big thing is supposed to be like. And it's like, and if it's not that, it's like, not do we not do it, but do we push it back until we get that, you know what I'm saying? But it's like the longer you push it back, the less time you have an opportunity, less opportunity you have for souls to be saved, you know what I'm saying, so it's like understanding, like, you were called for a specific reason, for a specific purpose, before you even knew what you were called for and what you're called to do. Do you really have the gall on our dassie to say or make a decision of when you're going to answer the call or make these stipulations on what you need to do what you can call it? Right. So I think that, like it said, that part is a, is a wrestle, it's kind of a struggle. Yeah. But we got to be encouraged like, yo, like, this is what you were called to do. So let's lean into the call versus like the things. That's good. So like I'm kind of hearing you saying, like, faith is it, and perhaps what you can't see is kind of a way of leaning out on, depending on, I guess, a human reasoning way of putting things together. In other words, like, if us figuring it out, how to do ministry becomes easier or the forefront to us having faith in the God to promote our ministry, then that's when we run into trouble is the production being first instead of faith in God. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's like, well, we don't need to, we don't need to lessen our dream or our vision for the type of ministry or how whatever our picture of ministry that God gave us through vision, we don't necessarily need to lessen that. We may actually need to think bigger or in a different, more dynamic way that causes us to go into an area of faith instead of an area of, oh, let's figure this out. Yeah. Yeah. Not for sure. Yeah. Not for sure. I think that like with that, it's, I think it's something that maybe my, I may have heard my dad say, and it's like, man, whatever your priority, if your priority, when it comes to leading people, starting a church, whatever in that ministry capacity that is in scope, if your priority isn't the word, then if you build your priority on the music, if you're depending on the music, if you're depending on the lights to keep people in the seats and it get light, like you got the whole game messed up. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Because now if you're relying on that, if you don't have it, maybe now your word not going to be as strong because you're banking on something else to carry it. Yeah, I mean, so, yeah, that's a, that's a hard, that's a hard thing to navigate because as accolades come, and as, you know, kind of your quote unquote light shots brighter, yeah, how do you then keep it from thinking that it was really about you and what you're doing? Yeah. And not really, what about God, what about God? What God is actually doing? Yeah. Because he is using. Come on. Yeah. The person is being used, like, and we can't, we can't forget that. Yeah. You know, there are names in the Bible, like people's names are recorded in the Bible, like in church history, people's names are recorded, like we know who's done what God has let us know that people have done that he's used specific people to do certain things. Yeah. But how, like, navigating, yeah, that shine. Yeah. Yeah. Like, what do you think, so let me, let me say this, what do you think you wish folks did better, pastors, Christian leaders did better to redirect spotlight away from themselves and to Jesus? Oh, man, that's a, that's an interesting question because it's, it's, it's hard to say, I think it's hard to say sometimes or to pinpoint where that person's heart is when, as they're working, as they're doing ministry, whatever. But I can say that what I think that as a collective of leaders that are in that position, we need to continue to humble ourselves for sure because what'll happen is we will get so caught up, it's, it's easy to get caught up and how many people come to Christ and how many people are coming to the conferences, you know, it's easy for that to creep in because it's positive. Yeah. It's easy for it to be masked as like an ego boost. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Or be put as an ego boost, but masked because it's positive. Yeah. You're bringing people in. Yeah. You get this idea of like, you are this and that, now you start demanding different things, you know, you start demanding different things to each his own, you know what I'm saying, to each own. But however, I think our heart posture continually needs to be checked on what it is that we're doing and why it is that we're doing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I, what's in, in this age of the mega church age really got started when you had baby boomers who represented such a big population started entering into their peak earning years and those different types of things. And so you had a whole, a big population that was becoming increasingly Christianized that they needed places to worship. Yeah. And because so many people were earning more money able to afford, you know, kind of a middle income lifestyle, they needed churches and other places that look like what they were able. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So you're, you're imagining those, those different types of things. Yeah. But now we're almost in a society in which we're less Christian, right? And in terms of name, you know, there's a, there's studies that say, you know, we, we still in terms of people who are very committed to the faith. It's about the same amount of people. But those cultural Christians or those nominal Christians, Christians in the name only are certainly, you know, lessening what we have to do now in terms of how to cater to a generation of folks who are now skeptical about Christianity because it maybe became about the lights. Yeah. Because it maybe became about, you know, the, all the other different types of things. Yeah. Like that's our challenge. Yeah. Yeah. Like, there's a whole like, bro, bro, we made Christianity into this produceable, yeah, replicatable products. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. But now we have to unpack all that in order to, to reach a new general general of folks. Yeah. Yeah. Sure do. I don't know if we found that model. Oh, yeah. Or maybe there is an amount and we just need to keep it so flexible. Yeah. And it's not about a model, but just really about the people who is supposed to be about in the first place. That's what the church is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's, I think it's, it's fluid, bro. It's, it's like liquid, like boy, bro, it can, or clay, it can change, it can mold. And maybe we just continue to just be transparent in things that we do. I think transparency, it, it, that's a big one, you know, right now, like we, we want the, we don't want the fluff. Yes. We want the real, you know, even though we may not be able to handle it all, but we say we want it. Yeah. But transparency does bring people. Wow. Yeah. I mean, and we can be transparent. We can be vulnerable. We can have a church that genuinely addresses what people are skeptical about. Yeah. Instead of shining away from it. Yeah. You know, I think those are kind of some of the building blocks for how we usher in kind of this new phase, yeah, of church, yeah, you know, for our generation and younger. Yeah. That's hard, man. It is. Yeah. You know, one more thing. Yeah. We need to, as a, as a church, it's good. Like we've been known more for church's therapy over church is for instruction, you know, and for people who want to know how this works, you know, versus like the therapy aspect, we need to give the instruction more kind of a thing, especially for us, like this year, you want to know how things work, like what's going to give you results, like all those type of things. So, but I think that that's a very, very important. Yeah. Move from church, being a drug to church, being a school or institution. Yeah. That helps grow people. Yeah. Instead of just throwing band aids. Yeah. You know, man. Yeah. Yeah. So man, I'm with the bro. I mean, thanks for stopping by today. Yo, thanks for having a great conversation. Yeah. We're going to have to have you back. I'm packed some more. I'm packed some more stuff. I'm here for all the things. Yeah. All the things, all the things. Well, that's all, all the time we got for today on mind in my manner. Make sure you find us. Follow us. Hit that subscribe button wherever you get the podcast Apple Spotify watching on YouTube. Until next time, I'm Chris Brown here with Keith Reed. Thank you for joining in today. All right. Thank you. All right. I'm going to have a great weekend. We'll see you next time. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.