Hi and welcome to this episode of the Manx Radio Newscast. We're going to hear now from Sarah Lakeman, mother of Jacques and Toren Lakeman, who died in 2014. I should say at this point, some people may find what Sarah's talking about quite upsetting, but it's just because she speaks so movingly about what it's like as a mum to go through the sort of tragedy that has faced her family. It's not without hope, though, because Sarah is able to articulate how she's been able to forge a new life, live a new normal after what she's been through. I went down to Port St Mary to meet Sarah at her home, and first asked her really just how she is now, 10 years on. Well, it's a very difficult question to answer, actually, because obviously I'm not recovered, because we never do recover from something like that. It's horrendous. It's got to happen to us. But I'm coping very well, and I have been trying to live the best possible life I can, given the circumstances, just in memory of my boys really, because I think that's what they would have wanted. But there are times when I just sit back and think, "Hmm, yeah, it's very hard, and as some as we leant inside." But, no, I'm doing okay. This weekend's particularly hard, and I think that's the thing, isn't it? These significant anniversaries, because it's not just the fact that Jack and Toren died, it's their future died with them. Exactly, and our future really, our future. You know, grandchildren, spending time with them, lots of work on as well, so. But, you know, considering I didn't okay, and I'm going to be upset now because it's a 10th year book, you know, the anniversary is a difficult, you know, and there are so many of them, you know, there's Christmas. You have Christmas coming up, but everybody of course gets very joyful about Christmas, and we don't. But we try, because the people who love us and care about us don't want to see us upset. So we do really, really well. We really put a good show on, I would say, and we really enjoy ourselves because, you know, I hate seeing my sister cry, for example, and do I get upset? She cries, so we just, you know, we do. There are times when we probably don't feel like doing things, but we do it because the people we love, and we get a lot of confront from that as well, so, yeah. You know, so death is a difficult thing for anybody to talk about, and I just wonder how your friends, maybe the people who don't know you as well, and who may be worried about saying the wrong thing to you over the years. I think people are all worried about the same thing, they just don't say things. They just take us as we are. What I find particularly difficult is when I'm in a new situation and I don't know people, you know, so for example, if you've gone holiday with a group of people and you don't know them, but you get to know them over the holiday, and you just wait for the question, have you got children? And I now say, once I thought, I'll just say no, because I don't hurt them and upset them and make it awkward, but I felt like I stabbed myself in the heart, so I never did that again. So now I just say, yes, I do have two children, I've walked in their dark, and I just wait to see their reaction, and I just say, then I say something like, it's okay, I've been living with it for 10 years now, but it's not really okay, but it makes them feel better. And I always feel better, and I think, well, okay, they're either going to accept me and accept the situation and cope with it, or they're not, and I look at it as their problem, not mine. Yeah, I've got enough to cope with without worrying about what they're feeling now. The last thing is that people would be so scared of saying the wrong thing to you. Exactly, yeah, and I don't, you know, there isn't a wrong thing to say. Just take me and say, I'm just being a friend, you know, it doesn't matter. I'm still a person, even though I've been for a terrible tragedy, it doesn't mean I'm a non-person or somebody that you've got to put your foot around, because I'm not that sort of person anyway. Tell us a little bit about Jack and Torrin, remind us what they were like. Oh, they were just like typical boys, really, you know, and getting fun out of life. They enjoyed, they were a bit like me in a way. They enjoyed everything, though, they threw themselves in the me younger into all sorts of things, drama, music. They were both very musical, and they were fun. I mean, Jack had a sense of humor. I heard about Jack giggling, and you'd have to join in. Anybody who knows Jack wouldn't know about a sense of humor. And trauma is a little bit more intense. They were very bright children, actually, yeah, they were very, and fun to be with, you know, and I miss them loads. How have you managed to sort of piece your life together after what you've been through on a practical level, I suppose? What do you do after you face something like that? You collapse at first, obviously. There's a long time before I actually wanted to do anything about and die, basically. Then you make a decision. You think, well, do I really want to die? Is that what my boys would have wanted? Or do I want to live? And once you've made that decision that you want to live, you just have to go for it, really. And I've achieved so much since I've got a degree in Spanish from Dundee University. I've picked some ukulele from scratch, I'm not musical. I just waltzed into the ukulele group, the group leader just laughed because I thought, what should I do now, I retired? Well, I know, I've just been completely different. I'll take a deep kulele. So, Jack had an old ukulele on the windows, which was just gathering drugs, so I turned over this ukulele group. I wanted it, and they were all there with their music stands and their posh ukuleles, and I was there with this, like, "Oh my god, I just charries this shop, I think ukulele!" And the group leader went, "Are you Sarah?" She said, "Okay, well, just for today, just mute it and sing." And I said, "I'm sorry, but I don't know how to mute it." That's how bad I was. I did not know one end of ukulele from another. I didn't know it was it. Well, two or three years on, I've been really well, I think. If we say we do concerts and all sorts of things, I've had so much fun being in that group, and the people are lovely, and I've had so much content. The challenge was just amazing, and I really, really enjoy it. It's a highlight of my week going to ukulele, and the people are gorgeous. And they know all about the boys, and they've all accepted everything. The first year I actually joined the group was moving concerts at the Falken to raise charity for Parkinson's, and a lot of the bands that are on the CD with the ones that used to play there. And I actually said to the ukulele, I said to the group, "Do you think the collabia group would like to come and play?" And she went, "I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I had to tell them, of course, what it was all about." And they all turned up, and it was lovely. It was absolutely lovely, and we did. I used my songs, and we couldn't do very well. We had been practicing, we weren't very good at it, but we did a sweet child of mine because it was one of the boys' favourites, because they loved Guns N' Roses, but we didn't really like it. But we did our best, and we went down the storm. And I just saved my boy to look down on me now. They've been laughing their socks off. But they inspired me in that, because I wanted to do something as well that links me with them, because they always have the guitars and the music and everything. So it's like, brought music back into the house really, because it died with them for a long time. You have also moved house as well, and I just wonder what that was like, I suppose, leaving the place where all those memories were. Was that something that you felt you needed to do? It was a huge wrench. I felt we needed to do it, because we really needed to not make fresh dogs, if you don't make a book, but just get away from all the memories and everything. Because I couldn't go into their rooms. I couldn't even look at their doors. And I thought, "We can't live like this. I didn't want to live in a shrine, and I didn't want to..." Anyway, I thought, but it was hard. I didn't want to make it all. But getting rid of the stuff was hard. We got rid of a lot of the boy stuff. We just kept a couple of things. But once we'd actually moved, I felt a great sense of relief and a bit of calmness inside me, and it was especially we could have done. Yeah, it was really. It took us a while, five years, it took us. Yeah. And I suppose when you're grieving, no two people experience the same journey, do they? And I wonder for both of you what that process has been like and how you've been able to support each other. Well, we've cut to different ways, because I've coped, basically, by putting one foot in front of the other, and getting through my days, and keeping myself busy. And he's coped by throwing himself into projects, and I just let him get on with that, and he lets me do it my way. But he's done so much, and he's from Marathon. He did Fabian's war war. I'm walking around the teacher. I didn't do it. He did organize all the concerts for the boys and memory of the boys. He's organized the CD. He's joined anybody's child, which is one of the charities that you could put towards on the CD, if you had to donate. Yeah, so that's how he's coped. So we've kept him very different ways, really. Yeah, he keeps himself busy by launching himself to projects, and I keep myself busy by just doing things I enjoy. And we are speaking to Ray about the Jatter Project, which is something really quite special and a really poignant legacy. It is. And it is, absolutely. And people are still putting their little figures all around. And when I'm going to fall apart with a friend of mine, who's a very dear friend of mine, and she's the only one I could persuade to come with me. Because I'm touring, I've done his MA, which he wants to do. He would have spent six months in Svalbard looking at the stars. So, going around, I'll go into Svalbard. I'm going to take a little figure. We're going in, going in May, and then we'll have to support ourselves some snow boots in preparation. And speaking of the stars, you did something really quite special with some of the boys' ashes. Would you be able to tell us about that? Yeah, yeah. We still actually got some of the boys' ashes, but for a long time, we didn't know what to do with them. We didn't know where the best place to put them was, what the boys would have liked. And we just came across the ashes in space, and it's all a flight. So, we contacted them. We sent the boys' ashes into space, and it was a wonderful moment. Yeah, and I've got a link. I'm a little bit interested. I have got a link to that, and it is very, very emotional watching it, but it's beautiful. And when you look at the stars, you can just think that they're everywhere. They're all around. Yeah, it's lovely. Have you, at any point, just Windissero? Why us? Why have we had to go through this? I don't know. I don't really look at things like that. I do sometimes wonder why I'm alive and they're dead, because it's not the natural order of things, but I don't think... I don't look at myself as what I'd done to deserve this sort of thing, so I don't think like that. But I do sometimes think it's not right that I'm still on the planet, they're not. How do you want them to be remembered? As they were from the funny, lovely boys, my children. And Sarah, knowing what the ten years have been like, what would you go back and say to yourself, who's just... Look, that she's had the worst possible news. And I suppose what would you say to say, actually, you're going to get through this. You take it each day at a time, and you'll get there. I'm not sure whether it is. I'm not sure I've got that. I'm not sure if I will get there, but take each day at a time. I take pleasure in something every single day, even if something is simple as that, making a beautiful cup of coffee, a wonderful cup of tea. I sit with my friend, reading my book, perhaps I'm a ukulele. I'm still doing a bit of supply at work. I'm just reading, I just take pleasure in things. I'm trying to make sure I get the best out of every day. Even though there's still that huge emptiness inside me, I try to crush it down. So I'm your Beckett, that brings to mind, because he says something on the lines of "I can't carry on, I will carry on." I'm sure I've misquoted it, but it's something like that. And that's basically it. You carry on, you carry on, and you carry on. Sometimes you don't want to carry on, but you do. And just try and get the best out of things, because that's what you can do in their memory. Sometimes when I have the days where I feel like I don't want to carry on, I think, no, Jack and Torrin want them on to carry on. I wanted to enjoy things, which I did. I always feel like I want you to get your ukulele out now, and show us how good you are. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't tell Ruby. Ruby knows that I'm learning this, because she's so good. She brought the ukulele down to the hour at the other night, but I'm not taking mine. I did say to her one day, we could do it with you at Ruby, outside of our suspense system. I don't think that'll ever happen. I don't think that effort goes to be as good as her. I never know, we could see you there. You never know. Thank you so much for talking to us. We're all thinking about you on this 10th year anniversary. Thank you very much. A sense of humour helps as well. Sarah Lakeman, she really wouldn't believe it herself, but I think she is one of the most incredible people I've ever met. She speaks so movingly and is so incredibly honest about what the past decade has been like for her. But as I said, there is hope in there as well. She is now living this new normal and is, as she said, determined to live. She is finding the joy where she can. We are thinking of her and Ray and all Jack and Toren's family at what is an incredibly difficult time. Sarah also mentioned what they did with the boys' ashes, and it's something I'd never heard of before. Sarah has given me the link, so if you'd like to watch, it is very moving, I should probably warn you. I will put the link on the podcast page. And if you'd like to access any support after what you've been listening to, then those links will be on the podcast page as well. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you for making it to the end of the Manx Radio Newscast. You are obviously someone with exquisite taste. May I politely suggest you might want to subscribe to this and a wide range of Manx Radio podcasts at your favourite podcast provider, so our best bits will magically appear on your smartphone. Thank you. Thank you. [Music] (upbeat music) You
