Hello, Sobertown listeners. Welcome to another episode of Sobertown Podcast. I'm your host, Michael, also known as MMC13 on the IM Sober app. I encourage you to explore sobertownpodcast.com for recovery tips, resources, and of course, podcasts. It's your one-stop shop for sobriety. Today I'm joined by Dr. Sarah Michaud, clinical psychologist located in Central Massachusetts. She currently operates a private practice helping families and individuals recover from drug and alcohol addiction, as well as the many unhealthy codependencies that occur. She is the author of co-crazy, one psychologist's recovery from codependency and addiction. We'll talk about the book a little later in the podcast. Sarah, thank you so much for joining me. Hi, Michael. So great to be on Sobertown. Really great to learn about it. Yeah. Thank you. I'm so glad you're here. So let's start off by learning a little bit about you first. If you wouldn't mind telling us a little about your history, your recovery journey? Sure. So I literally just celebrated 40 years. I believe I've been sober that long. It's so crazy to think about because I know you've had this feeling where you kind of, I don't know, for me, if I drive through a certain town where I was using, I literally can still get shivers, even though it's been that long. So I got sober when I was 24 years old. I was a coke freak and alcohol mainly. I mean, I would take anything. But I always say I'm really, I feel really lucky for the drugs because the drugs brought me down, I think a lot quicker because legal problems, legal problems, medical problems. So I started getting arrested for selling coke. I started getting into all kinds of trouble, really huge mood swings. And I just ended up in a drug house, you know, on the floor, hallucinating with bugs all over me and thinking I was losing my mind and ended up in a psych hospital in 24 hours. So, you know, I didn't drink and drug for long. Like literally I started at 16 and ended at 24. But I feel like during that time, I did enough for several lifetimes. So yeah. So that's kind of a synopsis. Absolutely. And it may not have been a terribly long time, but those are those important formative years where your brain is still developing. And so you've experienced these severe impacts from it, even though it might not have been as long as some people have drank or drunk. Absolutely. And also, you know, I talk a lot about the relationship stuff. And this is where we'll get into the codependency piece. But so much of how we're brought up and what happens in our childhoods and the pain or trauma or anger or fear or shame or whatever, when you pick up those drugs, like you know, it just seems to ease that. And a lot of the trauma in my addiction world was also trauma with it with relationships and getting into the wrong relationships, different really horrible experiences because of alcohol and relationships, compromising myself. I often say, you know, we look at a lot of fears when we get in recovery. And I often say the fear of not being wanted basically got me into every relationship I've ever been in. And got me into a lot of dangerous places in recovery. I mean, in when I was using and since also. So yeah, yeah, codependency is big. And I know we'll get to that. But it's the addiction and it's the relationship stuff always. Yeah, absolutely. So what did your recovery journey look like when you decided to quit? Got it. I went to a treatment facility. So I was lucky enough back in 84 to do a 30 day program. I know like those hardly exist now, but I was in a 30 day program. So I got, you know, God, I was having all kinds of I was thinking about this the other day. My eyesight for some reason from the cocaine and like, I don't know if it's from putting Coke in my eye. It's just weird things you did. Like I would like be in a group and suddenly the group would like expand and get smaller. And so I mean, I remember getting MRIs and like, so you're in treatment. I mean, thank God, because I didn't feel normal. Well, probably for a long time after that. But thank God, I had that time to get off of the drugs and alcohol. And then I ended up going to a sober house for three months. And that was another thing that just like because I had my own apartment at the time. And I feel like if I went back there, it would have been really dangerous just being alone. So I had that time to kind of get a job, you know, get a sober job, get back into the real world, start getting support, going to support groups, getting to know human beings as a sober person. I mean, that first year I described as like one big mood swing. I mean, you know, in fact, I think I was diagnosed bipolar early in recovery, but I literally wasn't bipolar. And I used to say this also, I'd either be in field manic or asleep. I'd be either going really, really quickly. And I know people like that today in early recovery that just can't sit still. And it takes a while to be able to just be in your own body, be with your own thoughts, be with your own feelings and be okay. So that first year was just kind of, you know, staying busy, staying busy. Personally, well, and similarly, I started drinking at a very young age. I started drinking around 14, 15. I could I could I couldn't even legally buy alcohol before I was physically dependent on it. And I read at some point years ago, and it stuck with me where it said you stop developing emotionally when you start abusing these substances. And so when I started working on recovery in my late 20s, I had the emotional maturity of a 16 year old, you know, and so all I was used to was falling on numbing myself. That's the only coping mechanism I knew. So emotions were very intense in the beginning and so uncomfortable. And it didn't matter if it was a positive or a negative emotion, I struggled equally with how to navigate those. Absolutely. Such a great point. I was I was saying to someone, you know, my first disappointment in recovery, I remember like throwing myself on my bed and like sobbing for, you know, what felt like hours because it's like I had never felt that feeling. And so you're absolutely right. I mean, so much of early recovery is about identifying, tolerating, and expressing your feeling state. So I mean, for me, it's both with addiction and with codependency recovery, both is about starting to identify what's happening inside. It sounds so elemental, but I think with addiction and with acting out and codependent behaviors, it's the same thing. We're being preoccupied with something else rather than being in our own bodies and our own feelings, which is so critical. So great. So let's talk about when school came into play, when did you decide you wanted to go into psychology? Did you know you wanted to go into substance abuse? Got it. It's interesting, because I have a 22 year old right now, and he's trying to figure out his life. And I saw this question and I was like, and he actually asked me, when did you kind of know? Because he's still really in that early 20s, trying to navigate that figure it out. And I said, well, what happened was I got sober, I got a job. And within two years, I just felt like my mind was mush. I felt like I really wanted more. I wanted to start learning. I had this like, you know, just that craving to learn and grow. And so I got into a like UMass Boston, which at the time, we had a great returning students program because I was 26. And so I was an older student. And they had a whole community there for people returning to school. So it was a really supportive environment. And I just loved it. And I'm not sure what led me into psychology. I majored in sociology with a minor in psychology and feminist studies. But I, you know, I'm just fascinated by human nature and human beings and why people do things. And I'm sure was my upbringing that led me to the interest. But yeah, just really interesting and behaviors and why people do things. And the substance abuse just was kind of a natural, you know, fall out of that, you know, because I was sober and went to graduate school and realized just a lot of people like a lot, they weren't teaching addiction in graduate school. So there was not much out there. You know, the K-DAC, I'm not sure was even around at that point. So I think once I got my degree, ironically, my first job was this is gonna sound crazy. Was that the psych hospital that I was at? That I went to originally. So it was really interesting because the psychiatrist I worked with, who I told later, was literally the psychiatrist that I had when I had been in treatment like 10 years before or 15 years before. So it was really wild. It was like a full circle. So, so yeah, I think a lot of people when they start getting sober, like they'll get a job for a while. And then like that passion, whatever is driving us, like, what are we really interested in? What do we want to do? What, you know, how do we want to spend our time? It just starts percolating. So it was just the right time for me. I think there's almost a benefit to getting sober a little later in life and going through that phase. Because like you mentioned, your 22 year old son doesn't have a whole lot of his identity figured out yet. And he's trying to answer these huge questions. You know, when we're in our later 20s or our 30s, we're starting to get a little better sense of who we are. And I think once you get sober and you start to get that motivation and that drive back, it makes it just a little bit easier to answer that question and identify what am I passionate about? Yeah, I mean, it's so true. I was listening to an interview with someone recently talking about their young adult child. And they said, it's just such a different world now in the sense of, you know, when I was young, it was like this trajectory. It was very linear. You go to college and you do this and you get a job. And then you're the same job for and now kids are like, first of all, there's just so many different options. School isn't necessarily the only way to go. In fact, there's a lot of people talking about it, not. Well, on one hand, like one argument as you need a college degree, just as a baseline. And then you'll see someone on YouTube making millions, you know, who just started the interview. So there's a lot of crazy messages out there. And I definitely think it takes longer to navigate it and figure that out these days. You're absolutely right. And also, how do you know what you want to do with the rest of your life at 22? It's crazy. So absolutely great point. And I think what did they say? The average the person has an average of like five different careers in one lifetime is probably a lot more now. But yeah, you got to keep it interesting. Definitely. And I'm in human resources. I've seen this shift in the younger employees in the workforce. And you know, once upon a time when I first started in leadership, we were one of the big key points you measured a resume on was longevity and positions. And that is changing that whole dynamic is changing. You can't just look at that anymore. Because there's just not that same feeling that you need to stay in this job. No matter what kids are changing jobs more frequently, they're searching, I think, for that better fit in this bold way that was not the culture that was not how it was done when we were entering the workforce. Oh my gosh, you talk to my son about this for like hours because it's a whole thing for him, the whole shift in the workforce and jobs and young people and what they need. And I mean, that's a whole huge arena right now. Absolutely. So yeah, I mean, in a way, I was lucky that I kind of found what I loved. I had a practice for 30 years and now I see people for consultations and I have podcasts and I have a YouTube channel and stuff. So I'm kind of moving in a different direction. But yeah, I'm very lucky that I loved my career and and it lasted so long time. Yeah. In anything you can get burnt out. I'm sure you know that too. Oh, of course, of course, burn out is very real. And that's that's where we come to people making huge career shifts in, you know, middle adult life. And I'm not immune to it. I've been looking at different master's degrees programs myself, you know, you never know. So let's talk a little bit about the relationship between codependency and addiction. And maybe maybe even start with what is codependency? Yeah. So it's interesting. I mean, codependency, the word, I mean, really started back, you know, Bill Wilson and his wife back in the 30s and she started allen on and it was all about it was all based on kind of this specific thing of a woman married to a male alcoholic. That was the origin. And it was all about how the wife was, you know, developing her own symptoms because of her husband's alcoholism. And she spent her time trying to control him or she got angry at him or whatever that pattern and dynamic develop, that was kind of the original definition. And even when Melody Beatty wrote codependent no more, it was still about kind of married to an alcoholic or being with an addict. So over the years, over the last 40 years, the definition, I mean, now on the internet, I don't know what it would say because there's so many definitions. But my whole point was to really broaden it to people and relationships because it's not just someone who's married to an addict or an alcoholic. I think that's maybe an extreme at one end of the continuum. But I would see a mom, for example, a new mom with a baby who's completely preoccupied and fearful about what's happening with her baby. And that can be a form of codependency or, I mean, parents, parents in general. I mean, the definition really is, is I'm more preoccupied with what you're thinking and feeling and doing than what's going on with me. And if I can fix you and change you, then I'm going to feel better. So I'm not really in my body or my thoughts and feelings. I'm always screening externally what everybody else is doing or thinking or feeling. So then I know how to feel. And the delusion is, you know, for years, it was all about, you know, I'm really trying to change someone else, which is currently true. But really, the definition is, I can't tolerate what's going on inside of me when someone else is having a feeling or doing a certain behavior. It's really got nothing to do with the other person, but it gets all twisted around. And the delusion is that if I fix them, I'm going to feel okay. But really, if you're focused on someone else and trying to control them, they're going to get worse. And you're going to get worse. And that's why really, I wrote the book because in 2000, and it was like thinking of the date, 2000 and or I met a man and got married. He was at the time 15 years sober. And he ended up relapsing on pain meds. And my life became a total shit show. And I remember thinking at one point, if I'm struggling with this issue and I am a PhD, I'm working full time with addiction and families. I trained at McLean Hospital. I've gone to Allen on for 15 years. I've been sober a zillion years. And I'm still trying to navigate this. Then the average person is really going to struggle. So that's why I really thought of writing this book because it's like, again, my main definition is, I need to change who I am for someone else. And the core quintessential component is fear. So let me give you an example. If I grew up, say with an angry father, I may have this paradigm that I need to change my behavior or what I say to not let other people around me get angry, right? So that becomes this way of being for me. I might people, please, I might try to manipulate. I might try to ease people's feelings. I might distract someone when I see them getting angry. So it's all about them. And all of my behaviors are not choices. They're just adaptations to control my environment. So when we're doing that, we lose touch with what we are thinking with what we are feeling. And the mantra in all my group says, what do I need? What do I want? What do I need? What do I want? What do I need? What I want? Because the problem is the codependency mantras, what do they need? And what do they think? And what do they feel? Right? And then that directs what I'm doing. So you think you have control over your life, but you really don't. And that's why I say everybody is codependent to a certain degree. Because if we grow up, even if you don't have any type of trauma, those early what are called object relations, your dynamics with your caregivers is really the paradigm that's created for your future relationships. So if I have parents that are depressed or anxious or unavailable or whatever, I'm going to figure out in a great way as a kid how to get my needs met in these alternative ways, because I can't ask for my needs to be met. So I figure that out, geez, I'm nice to mom and then she'll give me something. All right. You know, I do this for dad and he does this. So it's all about kind of this adaptation, rather than being really clear, clarity is one of the huge tools of recovering from codependency. Because when you're clear about what you think and feel and want, then you can try to communicate it, but that creates a whole other whole other bunch of problems for people. I mean, how people do you know when we're talking here that really are able to say their truth in relationship that don't have fear in a romantic relationship that are able to speak speaking up is like the number one tool, setting boundaries, all of these things, being clear, identifying your feelings, able to express them. And in in recovery meetings and groups, what I've seen over years is people have a really hard time expressing what they want. Okay, I've been rambling. What are your thoughts on all that? I love all that. And I there were so many things that you brought up. We could talk for hours. I know. One of the things that you mentioned is people pleasing. And I will tell you, people pleasing is a topic that comes up in our meetings regularly. And something I recognized that I had been doing in a prior relationship that I ended last year, where I was literally putting this person's needs in front of my own. And when I finally recognized that it was heartbreaking, but it was freeing you know, and knowing that I had to really work through and navigate selfish versus self-care, right? And that self-care is not necessarily selfish. I shouldn't even put necessarily in there. Self-care is not selfish, you know, and that I was I was forever going to be settling if I did not figure out a way to break this pattern. So would you say codependency and people pleasing are always going to be hand in hand? Is that a symptom? Yeah, people pleasing is definitely a big characteristic of a codependent. Yes. And it's interesting because some people who are codependent, I even hate the word now because it doesn't even mean anything. But some people are kind of accommodating people pleasing kind. They rationalize people's behavior. They, you know, whatever, there's a certain profile of that type of codependent. And then there's another profile which is kind of the angry, controlling, manipulative, can't tolerate my feelings, blame you. And then you can be a combination of all of it. But you're absolutely right. The people pleasing behavior, you know, if we were to talk this out and you look at what I usually say to people is what's the underlying fear? So if I feel like I can't express myself and I need to take care of them and make them happy, what am I afraid of? Am I afraid of my own feelings? Am I afraid of upsetting them? Am I afraid of losing love? Am I afraid of abandonment? Am I afraid of not being wanted? Am I afraid of being alone? Like there's always like an early fear where the behavior gets developed. And then we have this adapt, then we realize, oh, this people pleasing behavior works to quell this fear, right? And what I do with people is I say, when did you first have the fear? What happened? So I take people back to kind of the say you have the fear of abandonment. And it's like, geez, I was five. You know, my mother was drunk. She left at night. I was alone or whatever. And then you see, oh my God, that original experience is what's created this behavior to cope. But now the thing is, once you become an adult, we don't realize that all those old ways of coping in relationships are still operating. We don't know they were coping skills, right? So yes, people pleasing is huge. And the thing is, you know, if people pleasing creates resentment. Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. And even even I would say this is pretty predominant in careers, workforces as well, you know, codependency does not necessarily need to be a romantic relationship or absolutely not relationship. I can't tell you how much of my job is spent mediating difficult conversations because people are so confrontation of virgin, you know. And why? Because they're afraid of something. Yes. Definitely afraid of how that person will react, afraid of the safety and security of their position. Yes. Yes. So many things that are twined. So let's talk about the crossroads then of codependency and addiction. What does that look like? Yeah. I mean, a couple of things. When I look back, really, the codependency, the codependent behavior started way before I picked up an addiction. So if you think about it, you think about your relationships and how you were operating and what kind of pain they caused and discomfort or anger, resentment or shame, all that stuff was pretty much there before an addiction. I'm not saying everybody within addiction has codependency, but I am saying, this inability to be who we really want to be and say what we want to say and set boundaries, we can talk about that, is really a core of picking up a thing that makes us feel better. Because if we were okay being ourselves, we wouldn't need an addiction. Do you know what I mean? So I think a lot of times for a lot of people, it comes beforehand. Then what happens is you put down the substance and what happens? We have to learn how to have relationships, but we haven't been with our thoughts or feelings for a while. So we don't really know how to be in relationships. And so we want relationships, we want friendships, and we don't really know how to be ourselves or ask for what we need, thus creating codependent behavior and codependent relationships. I was just in this meeting recently, which blew my mind, in this group of women, probably out of 25 women, 20 had over 25 years of recovery. And literally, I'm not kidding. 80% of those women in this group talked about people facing behavior. So think about that. Just because you get sober doesn't mean that you're going to be able to identify or get clear about these behaviors that aren't working. Usually, people start getting in touch with it when they have a relationship crisis. And they're like, oh, it's not working. I mean, most people go to therapy because they're a relationship crisis. Let's face it, right? And what you were talking about is brilliant, because it's like, really, when we start setting boundaries, like you're realizing the relationship isn't working. The first, I remember this guy who wrote a great book on boundaries, Cloud and Townsend from years ago. And he said, the first feeling you're going to have when you start sending boundaries is guilt, because you're not used to doing it. So of course, you're going to feel guilty. You don't even know it's okay. And that's the other thing I often you'll hear from people is I feel selfish. So doing what's right for you is selfish. I mean, again, when you kind of break it down, you see that, oh my God, that's not selfish. That's just a belief I've had. So yeah, really good boundaries are really important. And again, it goes hand in hand with the speaking up for what you need. And I always say to people, practice with people that are less charged in your life, meaning, you know, you don't necessarily have to call your mother and say, Hey, I'm not coming for Thanksgiving. If you can't tolerate that, but maybe at the local coffee shop, if the person gets your coffee wrong, you can say, Hey, this is really my coffee isn't done right. So you start practicing, you know, with people that you're not, you're not going to be you're not going to die if you lose the relationship, you know, or feel like you're going to die. Yeah, setting boundaries is definitely another huge topic. And we're going to bring it comes up frequently. And it's just, and I don't want to, you know, polarize this of genders. But I think as women, we are particularly raised to be the caregiver, be the nurturer, be the giver. And I think we wrestle that much more with that guilt when it comes to saying no, when it comes to allowing ourselves to put ourselves first. Yes, yes. No, you're absolutely right. I mean, the bottom line is if you're a woman, and you've been brought up in this culture, most likely you have some codependency tendencies, because it's just how we are brought up. I mean, I remember, you know, when I was little, and I mean, I am 65. So my childhood, I'm sure was different. But nobody looked at my brothers to clear the plates after dinner. It was like, I automatically got up. I didn't even know I had internalized oppression until I went to college and heard the term. Do you know what I mean? I didn't even know I was compromising myself or taking care of people. It's so covert and part of patriarchy. So I mean, yes, that's a whole other piece. And absolutely, you're going to have more feelings about it. And hopefully women today, you know, I have a niece who's 30, and she struggles with codependency. But she also has this part of her that's very powerful and strong. So hopefully, women growing up, you know, now or have a little more of that. I don't know if that's true or not. But yes, absolutely. If you're a woman, you're going to most likely struggle, especially moms, you know, I've done some talks to moms. And the hardest thing for a mother is to tolerate your feelings when your kids having a feeling. And what they'll say to me is, Oh, I just don't, you know, they're upset. Well, no, it's not about them being upset. It's about you're being upset that they're upset or feeling guilty that they're upset or feeling sad or feeling like a bad mother or whatever it is. And that's the worst thing you can do, like let your kid have their feelings, have their experience. It's not our job to help them to not be human. I mean, human beings have feelings, Michael, right? I mean, it's so crazy. Anyways, don't get me started on parents. It's a whole other topic. Oh, yeah. It's definitely, definitely. That's one of the hardest professions in the world. Oh, I say that all the time, hardest job in the world. And I only have one and I barely survived. Yeah, I only have dogs and they stress me some days. Oh my God, we did a video. I'm going to send it to you. We did a video on our channel. I have this YouTube channel called Leaving Crazy Town based on the tools in the book. And we did it, co-crazy with your pets. Because you can be just as codependent with your pets as with anybody else. So yes, absolutely. Oh, no, don't tell me that. I'm going to have to look at codependency issues with my dogs. So I'm curious. If you had someone that came to you that you recognized a strong codependent tendencies in who was still active in their addiction, what would be the way that you would address that situation? Would you focus on addictive behaviors first, codependency behaviors, or is it inert line? Great question. I mean, I think as addiction kills people, I'd focus on addiction first. But at the same time, I'll give you an example. There was a gal I saw years ago who every time she got six months of sobriety, she wouldn't relax. When there's a pattern, of course, you got to look at it. And what was happening is she was on a long-term marriage. And what was happening is by six months, her rage, she couldn't tolerate it. Because she was in a marriage with someone who was very critical, very dismissive, very controlling. And yet at the same time, again, it's always both and not the either or, right? He was a kind person. He had a lot of great qualities. So it was very easy for someone to rationalize, minimize. Well, how many times have you heard? Well, he's such a nice guy. Great. Okay. Yes. That's over here on the left. But on the right is the behaviors that are making you rageful that eventually lead you back to drinking. So her codependency of, I have a quote in my book about when you dismiss your own needs or thoughts or feelings or wants, that can lead to such dangerous things, at least to resentment, at least to rage. It can lead to depression. It can lead to panic attacks. There's old correlation with anger and panic. It can lead to physical problems, headaches, stomach aches. I mean, it can lead to a lot of different problems. So that issue with the husband, which was her codependency, was critical to finally look at so she could get some longer term sobriety. So yes, getting off the substances so you're clear enough to tolerate your feelings. But if during your recovery, you're not addressing the feelings that are coming up in your relationships and the codependent parts of you, then you could lead to relapse. So it's very intertwined, very intertwined. Yes. It makes so much sense. So if somebody suspects they're dealing with codependency issues, where is a good place for them to start to learn more about it? They get into it. What should they do to kind of see capital? Yes. I mean, there's lots of great books. Obviously, you can get my book called Coke Crazy. I mean, Melody Beatty was one of the original people with codependency. I have a YouTube channel, Leaving Crazy Town, and a friend of mine who is a transgender attorney, sober guy who's hilarious. He and I do this great with a podcast on YouTube channel. And we basically talk about different parts of codependency in each week. And they're just quick. There's some great people on the internet that do codependency YouTube channels. I know there's a particular doctor that's really good. Find people that you connect with. I mean, there's Allen on a force. There's codependent synonymous. There's lots of great books. There's people with their podcast. So there's lots of resources. It's just finding what works for you. Absolutely. And we will make sure that we link to your YouTube channel and various things in the description of this podcast as well. Let's talk about your book a little. Can you give me kind of a synopsis of it what readers could expect? Yeah, I mean, I talk about my own journey initially. It's part memoir because I think a lot of people can relate to it. I talk about how codependency begins before the addiction. And I think people will be able to identify with that. I know most people that are in recovery, especially women, write me and say, Oh, my God, that's me. Oh, my God, that's me. So I know people identify with it. So it's part memoir. And then what I do is I break down the components of codependency. I break down the different feeling states are involved, fear, anger, shame. I have a chapter on boundaries. And then I talk about different thought patterns, different ways of thinking. I call it living in fantasy land. I mean, the quintessential component of addiction is denial. And that can be very similar with codependency. We can still be in denial or minimize or rationalize what other people's behavior are. So a couple of chapters on ways of thinking. And then tools like a big part of it. And a lot of people say this when they go to Allen on or they go to different groups, what do I do? And so I'm really keen on I give a bunch of tools throughout the book. And at the end of each chapter are tips and tools and questions and explorations. So there's lots of helpful things throughout the book that people can use today in their lives. And I think that's what people need to. I love that I've pursued therapy a few times in my life. And that's always when I've been most successful is not only getting into the conversation in the session, but having some homework to work on afterwards. Yes. Yes. I just did this woman's YouTube channel. And she's great just to give her a shout out. It's called therapy in a nutshell. And she is really big. And what I love about her is she has tools. Every video she gives tips and tools. And that's one of her big beliefs is if you have anxiety or depression or PTSD, you need strategies. And again, yes, it's okay to talk and process your feelings and all of that. I mean, I'm a shrink. So I mean, we do that. But I also believe in solutions. You know, we can be very attached to being a victim or being, you know, probably getting trouble saying this, but I just think solution focused is the way to go or looking at why you feel stuck because and especially with addiction. I mean, I've seen plenty of people not be on the planet anymore because of addiction. It's really serious. And on one hand, I try to have some humor and lightness because I've been around trauma for so long. But on the other hand, and this is where we could get into all the communities and Instagram and all that stuff, is it does kill people. And I see plenty of people die from it. And so it's a really lethal illness. So I take that very seriously also. And, you know, so I mean, I love that there's so many options and make sure you find people that kind of know what they do, too. You know what I mean? All right. Are there any closing thoughts or tips or advice that you'd like to leave people with today? Yeah. I mean, I think the most important thing, and again, this is going to sound so basic, but especially in this world today where people are like chronically busy and relentlessly moving and distracted, the only way you're going to be able to recover from an addiction or codependency is to stop is to stop and notice. And in fact, I think at the end of each chapter, one of the tools is just notice. If you don't notice what's happening inside of you, then you're going to automatically be picking some coping skills, some way you've survived, some strategy, some manipulation, some way that's going to cover up what you truly feel and think. And the beginning of any recovery is really starting to start with you and identify you. I mean, I've been in therapy with couples and the spouse is answering for the other person. It's like, you know, that is like the epitome of codependency. It's like let the person talk because, you know, they can't control themselves. And, you know, so it's said, if you're someone who's always trying to fix someone else, sit with yourself. Notice what's happening with you. So anyways, that would be my first step. And like we're talking about, you know, starting to speak up and express yourself in simpler ways is huge too. Yeah. I think it's so easy for a lot of us in addiction and in recovery to get buried in that shame and that embarrassment. And it's really a hurdle to get over and start talking to people. But when we start talking about this, we find out how common it is, how rampant it is, and that we can get help and help carry that load and lighten it by sharing it. Absolutely. I mean, that is, I think something I learned in treatment. If you speak it, it cuts it in half and especially with shame, giving voice to it and realizing that someone else has experienced the same thing. Huge, huge. So, great tip. Yeah, awesome. This was wonderful. Thank you so much for joining me today. It's a pleasure to meet you. I think we may have to have you back on and talk boundaries. Yes. Anytime. Anytime. And if you ever want me to be in a group or give a talk on codependency, I'd be happy to. Anything that would be helpful. Yes. We will definitely work something like that out. Well, thank you again for joining us. It's a pleasure. All right. Silvertown listeners, thank you for joining and we'll see you next time.
Host: Michal aka MMC13
Guest: Dr Sarah Michaud
Codependency and Addiction: Discussion with Author and Clinical Psychologist Dr Sarah Michaud
In this episode of Sobertown Podcast, host Michal aka MMC13 is joined by Dr Sarah Michaud for a conversation about addiction, recovery, and the role codependency may play in both. They explore the many facets of these intertwined struggles, offering both thought-provoking insights and a healthy dose of humor.
Dr Sarah Michaud is a clinical psychologist who has worked in the recovery field for over thirty years. She is the author of the book CoCrazy: One Psychologists recovery from codependency and addiction, A memoir and manual for Freedom. She has been sober for over forty years and brings her compassion, humor, wisdom, directness and insight to support folks on their journey of recovery. She recently launched a YouTube channel called Leaving Crazytown with her sober attorney buddy, Finn.
https://drsarahmichaud.com/
https://youtube.com/@leavingcrazytown
https://www.thesobercurator.com
Other Sober Resources:
I Am Sober App
Getting Sober ...Again
Boom Rethink The Drink
Recovery Movie Meet-Ups
No Sippy No Slippy. Not Another Drop No matter What. Remember to Pour The Poison Down The Sink!! Sobertownpodcast.com
