UK Column Radio

What the Vet saw? Question everything with Roger Meacock Consultant Veterinary Surgeon

What should every farmer know to protect his livestock and what should every vet know in order to help them to protect their livestock? What are the consequences of ‘not knowing’? How safe is your food? What are the consequences of fake PCR tests on animals? Read the write-up at: https://www.ukcolumn.org/video/what-the-vet-saw-question-everything-with-roger-meacock-consultant-veterinary-surgeon

Duration:: 1h 18m
Broadcast on:: 03 Dec 2024
Audio Format:: other

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It doesn't matter whether we're meat eaters, or whether we're plant eaters, or vegans, vegetarians, whatever you eat, we all need to eat. However, our house safe is our food, and we've been talking a lot on UK Column about One Health. And I just want to read this out so that you get this accurately, that One Health impacts all of us. One Health is a collaboration of multiple disciplines working together globally, nationally and locally. This is in order to obtain optimal health for people, animals, and the environment. And the environment includes plants as defined by the One Health Task Force. Now, animals are a great interest to many of you watching. And I'm always delighted to be able to speak to Roger Meicock, who is pretty much our resident now consultant veterinary surgeon. And he really is one of a kind. He's known to us as the gentle vet. The last chance vet, Roger sees animals that perhaps established medicine has failed, or they've just come to the end of the line. And his practice natural healing solutions really should tell you all you need to know about Roger. And he has experience treating humans as well. And we've had many previous interviews with Roger, and for those of you that haven't seen them to go back and look, the article links will be, I'm sorry, the links will be in the article beneath this. But for those of you that haven't seen it and want to go straight to it, we've got an interview, mRNA in animals, the gentle vet who roars. Roger's also been talking to us about big pharma as in pH, A-R-M-A, and small pharma as in F-A-R-M-E-R. And another interview fits as a butcher's dog. So there's plenty on the website for you to go and look at so that you can get a feel of where Roger's coming from. But in the light of the recent pharma's protests that Mike Robinson and Brian Gerisch went to in London, I thought it was perfect timing when out of the blue, Roger rang me just the other day and said, "Hmm, I think something's brewing, and I think there's something we need to talk about." And we did, and we're going to come to that later on in the interview. But for now, I thought, "Let's start at the pharma's protests." And welcome, Roger. Thank you so much for agreeing to join us again, because I know you've always got your finger on the pulse. Say hello to everybody and perhaps give us a little brief introduction. Hi, Debbie. Hi, everybody. Yes. Brief introduction to me, I've been a vet for something years. And for the last 25 plus of those, I've been pretty well exclusively working using complementary alternative techniques. So I sort of take on, as Debbie says, the cases where everybody is maybe struggling or giving up, or they've been given not a lot of hope, or they just want a more natural approach to treatment. So I tend to work on trying to cure disease rather than suppressing symptoms. And of course, cure is a bit of a dirty word when it comes to pharma, because a cured patient is no longer a customer. So that's basically where I come from. I started off as a pharma vet when I first qualified conventionally. And I still love the farming side of what I used to do, although I don't really do a lot of farm work. Now, I sort of see a couple of cows on my family. I'm friendly. John's dairy, Dora's dairy, where I get my raw milk. And John, the farmer, there's done some programs with the UK column as well. And so occasionally I do still treat a few cows and calves and things for John when I'm picking up my raw milk. So I have this affinity to farming that sort of drove me really to go up to London on Tuesday and support the farmers, and lend my voice and support to their demonstration over the inheritance tax. And it was interesting being there really, and the one thing that sort of I picked up on really struck me was that that doesn't seem too much grass, but what's actually happening is deliberate ploy. And maybe the farmers were giving the government a face-saving way out to reverse their decision over the inheritance tax by saying it was a miscalculation of figures and all that sort of thing. But I actually don't believe it's a miscalculation at all. I think they've got every intention to do what they're trying to do. They're trying to get rid of small farmers. They want large farms. They want industrial farming. They want mono culture. They want to push everybody towards plant-based eating, which is accountable myself. It just doesn't fit. And I think that there's more to it than is often presented. And we know this really, you know, from many, many angles. We've come across the whole rewilding idea of what they want to do to the UK. We know that they want to put wind farms and solar farms on the farmland. We know instead of producing food, which is what it should be being produced for. And there's been, sort of, came back and watched a few videos on YouTube. And there was one professor of economics saying how actually it was beneficial to the farmers because it would drive the price of land down. And that would be good. And then the people wouldn't want to use it as a tax dodge. And that's all very well. There was an element of truth in what he said, but there's a big butt. And that is the farmers, if they haven't got the land value, they've got nothing to borrow against when they want to buy their half million pounds worth of combined harvester. So they need a certain value in the land in order to be able to borrow against it, to be able to carry on farming. And also if the price of land drops, then, of course, it's going to be a lot cheaper for the corporations to buy up and put their wind farms and solar farms and everything else on. So, and we've also heard from Sandy Adams in the past, you know, certainly for Somerset, you know, they've got zero provision for farming in the future. So there is definitely a bigger agenda here than just the inheritance tax. And as I think there was a question time in Parliament yesterday, and the government were challenged as to whether they would freeze the inheritance tax as a minimum guarantee, and they wouldn't do that. So what starts off at 50% of inheritance tax will creep up and up and up and up. And before we know it, they'll decide that's not enough either and they'll be putting a land tax on the farms. So, you know, this is a slippery slope. And, you know, we need to see it for what it is. We know the agendas that are coming through from the United Nations. We know the climate agenda and all the rest of it. And this is all part of that bigger picture that we really need to be aware of and seeing what's coming on down the road. Roger, everything that you've said there actually echoes pretty much what Brian Garish and Mike Robinson have said previously is they went to the farmers protests too. And what you've said, I think is quite concerning in effect. What I guess we're suggesting and correct me if I'm wrong is that perhaps the farmers have missed the point. And because they're not seeing the bigger agenda, the agenda from the WEF, you will own nothing, right? I mean, everything's going to be apparently seized, including land. So does it seem to you as though the farmers need a basic, a basic, I guess, a bringing them up to date, which is where we have got to today. What has been announced previously that's got us to where we are because I feel as though the farmers from what I'm hearing from people at the protest don't quite know what action to take. And because they're focusing straight on the inheritance tax, they're missing everything else. What can we do to galvanize farmers and to try to help them understand the bigger picture. Yeah, good question, Debbie, and it's difficult because obviously one of the things about farming is it's a way of life and it starts at five o'clock, six o'clock in the morning. And it goes through till six o'clock the following morning. You know, by the time there's no such thing as a nine to five in a farming job, you know, even when you think you've finished and you've put the cows handed them down for the night and you go in and you have your tea, then there's another check to do after that. And if there's a cow carving and you think she's probably going to be all right, there's another check to do after that. And by then you might decide she's not actually getting on with it and you need to intervene and help her to carve. Or maybe it needs to desert, you need to get the vet out. You know, there was various times when I was a farm where you were sort of danger periods. If you like, when sort of the out of ours, when I was on duty, and it would sort of be after the farm, after the farm had finished milking, because he'd been too busy milking to stop. So he sort of separated a cow out and put her on her own to have a check after he'd finished milking. So if she decided she needed seeing at that point, that was your first danger point being called out in the evening. And then there was probably another one, sort of 10, 11 o'clock at night. And then there was probably another danger point, sort of midnight to one o'clock in the morning. So, you know, that farmers are working around the clock and to be fair to them, they probably haven't had the opportunity to delve into things in perhaps the same way that the rest of us have delved into. And, you know, if they're listening to radio for or something on their tractors, then they're going to be getting the BBC narrative as well. So I don't think it's surprising that a lot of the farmers haven't latched onto the bigger picture. And they're feeling so, so much under threat. Maybe it's somewhere they don't particularly want to go either. But, you know, we do need to be aware of what's going on. And we do need to educate the farmers somehow to, you know, to realize that there is this bigger agenda in the United Nations and packed for the future. And all, you know, Prince Gerald King Charles is plans for the UK and these aren't new plans, you know, they date back to the United Nations. Many years, you know, 70s, 80s, 90s where they started, you know, talking about how they wanted to rewild countries. I don't know the exact figures for the UK, but if they mirror, if they mirror what's going on in the US, which wouldn't surprise me, then we're looking at something like a 25% of the country being rewilded by 2030 and 50% of the country be rewilded by 2050, and then the people being kept corralled into 25% of the landmass with an effective buffer area of the remaining 25%. So, you know, that is certainly what is on the cards. And we look to see what's happening in the States and Bill Gates have built up huge tracts of farmland there as well. So, you know, it is, there's definitely a much bigger agenda. It's been going on a lot longer. And somehow we do need to get farmers educated. And back in the summer, I did a talk down in Devon for some farmers down there. We was primarily on climate. But it does actually, I think it hit me actually how useful having a face-to-face meetings are. And possibly if farmers are there in having an evening talk somewhere, then that's when they're probably going to engage more because they can't get distracted by anything else to worry about what the cow that they've checked is doing outside as well too. So, we do need to support our farmers. And if they do what has been talked about in terms of supplying the public direct and not supplying the supermarkets to try and make the government see sense over the inheritance tax issue, then, you know, people need to be supporting their local farmers. And, you know, go and buy locally. You'll be amazed at the quality of the food that they're producing. And that's the best we can do is to support them and try and have an engagement conversation and have a chat with them and let them know that there is a bigger picture. I absolutely hear you. And I think it's very important that we do hear that message from people like you, Roger, of how hard a farmer's life is and that it is 24 hours. And as you were talking about that, I was writing a few things down because, of course, they're under intense scrutiny and pressure with Defra, so they have them to negotiate often. They have bets bills and bets visits to pay for and to organize whether that be in the middle of the night or whenever. And I was shocked, actually, at the cost of farming equipment. I mean, you know, it runs into half a million a million, you know, easy, easy for combine harvesters as you were mentioning before I was shocked at the price. And also the danger that's involved in farming. I think it's probably if not the most dangerous profession. It's one of the most dangerous profession because of all the equipment and the danger that surrounds it. So I completely get that why farmers may not have picked up on the memo of what we're seeing. And I know that, you know, here on the UK column, Charles Mallet has done a huge amount of work with some of your colleagues as well, Roger, and some of your contacts on raw milk and farming, and not just farming in the UK, but farming abroad. And I think I would like to make this interview a specific shout out. If anybody is watching that knows a farmer, or is a farmer, or is involved in the movement at all, please come and watch UK column, because we support you. And everything that Roger's just said about, you need to be providing us directly with the food. Don't send it to Tesco. Don't send it to Sainsbury. Any other good supermarket will do. I won't say good. And I'll take that word out. Any other supermarket is included. Sell it to us direct. We will support you. Our audience will support you. And we need to know where you are. And of course, Roger, that goes to the next question. And many people are going to be watching this and going, "Well, I'm in the middle of Birmingham. I'm in the middle of Manchester. I'm in the middle of London. Where do I find a farm shop? How can small farmers get to the public more easily if we're not living in a rural?" I mean, I'm very fortunate. We have a farmer's market once a week locally, so I can go to that and I can pick up fresh organic local produce, whether that's meat or whether it's fruit, vegetables, whatever. So what happens to people in the city? How can farmers help us? And how can we help them? Yeah, good question, Debbie. Cities have expanded and days gone by. The cities were that big and they could go out to the countryside and the farms were that much closer to be able to supply the bigger cities. But it is a problem. And some of the farms will have food, do food boxes, which can be sent out. I buy some of my meat for my carnival diet. I'll buy it online in bulk and get a better price and it will be delivered to me on the day that I choose. And it comes sort of semi-frozen or chilled in packages and it's fresh and then I can freeze it or use it as I need. So there are ways around doing it for those who are maybe not so accessible to go into a farm shop directly. I've got a sort of vision, a bit like we could replace supermarkets with something equivalent size building, but it isn't a supermarket run by a company. It is a collection of local producers within the one space. People have the advantage of going, it is exactly the same as a farmers market, but they tend to be outside, don't they? Farmers markets. What we do need is we need sort of a chain of warehouses around the countryside and around the whole country where local farmers basically just sell or local butchers. They have one sort of corner of it and it's sort of an amalgamation of local produce rather than something that's shipped in from the other side of the world. So, and actually the healthiest food we can eat is what's produced locally for us and there's good scientific reasons why that is. You know, getting these tropical fruits in the middle of the winter is actually not good for us for it increases the deuterium, the heavy hydrogen that we get in the body when our body is at a time of year we can't get rid of it in quite the same way. There are health reasons why local produce is the best produce that we can buy and eat in season without getting it shipped all around the world. You know, there are, we need to be keeping UK production to be able to support UK health and it is, it's that fundamental so, you know, it's just so important that we support our farmers. And, you know, and recognize the job that they do and as you say, you know, there are dangers around farms. I remember when I was a student and before we went out onto farm experiences and things we got shown, you know, health and safety film about hazards on a farm because of all the potential situations we might be in when we were students and we were going to get farm experience and then later on obviously we got, we got experience, you know, it's a veterinary site on farms and things as well so, you know, there are hazards there that they just got to deal with. And, you know, the idea, I saw a great memo on Facebook yesterday obviously we had a bit of snow around the country yesterday and you hear about schools closing down which never used to happen in our day you know we'd go along and have a great big snowball at playtime and it was great fun. And nobody, nobody got badly hurt, you know, everybody might got wet but that was probably cold a bit but that was the worst that happened to us. And there was a great memo that said, you know, new breaking news farmers working through the snow, you know, because it doesn't matter what the weather is that the animals still need feeding or milking or seeing to checking. Some of us in the field jobs may not be possible when the weather is bad but there's always something to do around a farm and it is, it's a complete lifestyle. And that's why I went into being a form back when I first started because I enjoyed that outside lifestyle and feeling that I was part of a business as well you know farmers weren't just clients to me they were my friends I saw them on a regular basis. They probably didn't want to see me necessarily as often as they did but, you know, certainly on the dairy side we were doing a lot of routine visits to try and help keep productivity as. And carving patterns tight and things like that so, you know, when you when you're there on a regular basis and, you know, for an hour or two at a time doing doing certain jobs then you get to have other conversations and the farmers become your friends as much as as much as he clients And that was that was the sort of aspects of a veterinary life that I enjoyed and then when I sort of went down the alternative field it really lend itself very much or very well to the same degree to to the farm animal side of things. But but I still have that affinity, you know, with that farming background, I know everything that you've said that Roger really just points more to what I've been saying for ages which the UK is being made deliberately engineered deliberately to become unsustainable. You know, we hear about this sustainable goals, we're all going to fire off loads of money because of the sustainable initiatives in yet the UK is unsustainable we can't sustain ourselves with food and what you said there about local produce. Now I hear this so many times from herbal medicine practitioners, especially saying use local herbs herbs that are indigenous to this country if you use things from other countries. They may not work as well use it use your local your local resources and honey, for example, an amazing heavy honey in Scotland from one of our amazing herbal practitioners Brian lamb works absolutely fantastically for all sorts of health issues, including sore throats strep a yet if you use a honey perhaps that's more specialized from another country, it may not work as well so it really is very important to support our local farmers farmers in the UK. But you know Roger you know so much about the agenda and what's going on, and there are going to be hopefully some farmers watching today perhaps that I've never watched before that have got all the best intentions in the world, but just haven't had the time to catch up with stuff. If you had to summarize everything just to give them a hint of what they are up against, what would your message to them be I'm sorry that's put you on the spot a little bit but what would you say directly to any, any small farmer or any farmer now that's watching perhaps for the first time. Well certainly we need them to keep going is the main message you know don't give up because I think times will change and people will ultimately look to local produce and regenerative farming is definitely one that's around the corner and that has to be good for the farmers it has to be good for the animals as well because they're not under such high pressure to produce as well so you know there are better times ahead I'm sure. And I think this whole global agenda, which is what it's all about really will ultimately fail I think there's people are waking up and seeing it for what it is. But there is definitely an intention to go down the whole multinational corporate route. We hear of companies like Monsanto buying up all the seeds so that and stopping farmers around the world from saving their seeds so that they have to keep buying from the seed producers now. You know so there is definitely a bigger agenda here. And as we know if you look at the C40's website they talk about ideally getting our meat consumption down to zero but they think realistically they can get us down to 16 kilos of meat a year. Probably do that I don't know in a couple of weeks but so I'm going to be very thin by the end of the year. So we do need, we do need our farms to keep producing and I think they're going to have to maybe sit it out for a little while and sweat it out but stick to their guns and just keep trying to find ways to keep going because I think the time will turn and people will start looking locally produced food and produce and the quality of it as well. Our farmers have got some of the highest welfare levels in the whole world. We got rid of pig stalls and things like that in the UK before lots of other countries around the world so our farmers are looking out for their animals as much as they possibly can. There's always things that everything can always be improved and they know that as well and they're always trying to do that but it's got to be economic at the same time for them to keep going. And so if we want animal welfare to improve then we've got to keep supporting those who are actually pushing it forward which is the UK farmer. So I would always urge people whenever you possibly can, you know, buy British meat, you know, search it out, seek it out. It is a higher quality and especially if you're getting it directly from farms you know exactly where it's coming from and a lot of them will actually let people have a look around the farm and see how the cows have produced and how they're living and the welfare that they have got. And so you know we need to support them but they need to keep going as well. We really do and I would really like to put a message to anybody that's watching farmers bets. Please reach out to Roger. If you don't know what the plan is and you haven't got the time to do the research and gain the amount of amazing knowledge that Rogers got then please reach out to Roger because I know that Roger goes and talks to groups. And he's desperately trying to get this message out and we all need to work together. Before I swerve on to really the reason that we're talking today which goes back to our phone call and your concerns, just a couple more questions. How do you see animals in 15 minute cities because as we've just said you know people are wanting to get away from cities to get into rural areas to be near farms to grow their own produce and to go back to the land themselves. So will we have animals at all in 15 minute cities. I don't know is the only answer to that. I don't think they've actually sort of set out within their different regimes for visions for 15 minute cities. I don't think they mentioned pets because they probably know that so many of us have a pet so we love having our dogs or our cats or other animals as pets that if they suddenly started saying, oh you know, by the way you're sharing your flat and you know you'll have it for 12 hours of the day and then you go to work and then someone else will come and have it for the other 12 hours of the night. And there's been there's a series on TV some sort of drama wasn't there based on that whole idea so it's sort of seeding that idea that you know you'll know nothing everything will be shared. And obviously if you're in a situation like that it's difficult to see how pets would fit in unless you had, you know, unless the pet was shared as well but I know people love their own animals and everybody would have the same. One of the same choices as, you know, far from ideal so, you know, they really don't see how within the 15 minute cities they they envisage pets really fitting in but no one's really asked the question other than what we're discussing here. It's first time I think I've heard anybody discuss that whole idea of what might happen to pets in the 15 minute city scenario. And people certainly, you know, UK people, we love our animals and the idea that we might be banned from from owning pets or the situation just isn't isn't possible. You know, a lot of people would sort of perhaps get up in arms over that more than they do seem to want to worry about themselves. When you say that about no pets in 15 minute cities it makes perfect sense because if I think about the existing cities that we have now that we're all living in now. I was talking to a neighbour only the other day, and I was saying we haven't had in this country for I can't I don't know when it was wiped out but pest control, where the local authority, where you know you'd have your rap catcher. And you could just call the council and they would turn up for a small fee. And they would get rid of whatever pest it would we don't have that and we currently have more rats on the planet than we do humans so whilst we're not allowing domestic pets that we all love and look after and if everybody's the same as me our pets are king and queen in the house. And yet we let pests and rats and rodents just go unpoliced completely that's just an observation because we don't have any pest control at the moment and haven't done for a long time. But that kind of brings me on. It's going to bring me on to the second part of what we're going to discuss. And it's to set the scene right it's just to set the scene because when you said it the other day on the phone Roger I hadn't actually thought about it and now I am, because as you know my life is surrounded by sewage because I'm a sewer flood victim. And you see slurry trucks driving around but do we give any consideration to what slurry is and what we're putting on our fields. So before I go any further because you know where I'm going with this, can you just describe to people what slurry is. Well to put, not too blunt a turn on it's just processed shit. And unfortunately sort of in the old, you know, sort of in the old days. The farmers, obviously we're spreading their farming arbineia on the fields as fertilizer. With the increase in human population in the UK and the way so slurry human human is being being processed. It is now also being used as sort of fertilizer on fields and I think there's a real potential hazard to doing that. It is obviously pathogens, we've got our gut microbiome which obviously has got good bacteria and not so good bacteria and viruses and things in there as well. And I'm sure we're the best well in the world, even when it's processed. You know what's being spread on the field will potentially have that ability for, you know, to can still have things that shouldn't be there. And could potentially get into the soil and potentially into our crops. And I know from past conversations one of the big risks of that is actually prions because they aren't easily dealt with. They can go into the soil and the latest research shows that roots and plants can actually uptake prions and redistribute them to the leaves. So if those people who are plant based in their diet think that they have got no risk of getting prion diseases because they don't eat animals, think again. And we see this happening in the USA especially with chronic wasting disease in deer which is spreading hugely and in deer they've talked about horizontal transmission in deer so from one deer to another. I wonder whether that how much that actually happens. I suspect it is more likely that deer in a little mini herd will obviously all be in the same area. And so if prions are being excreted in the deer dung and then that's going into the soil and then the plants are up taking it and then the deer are eating the plants. I suspect that might be the route by which the transmission is happening horizontally. But obviously the risk there and the warning for us is that be careful what you spread on your fields. And as we worry about how we might be inducing prion diseases in animals in the future if we start introducing mRNA products into the veterinary side of work, then we know that they can be prionogenic. And it's not difficult to see that if we're giving prionogenic products to our farm animals in significantly large volumes, just a number of animals involved will mean at some point in the future there will be prions being produced. And if they go if that species is then going and slurry is going onto the field, then we risk it going into our into our human food chain so there's all sorts of dangers of what we see is progress sometimes I'm not always sure it is. For viewers that don't know and may not understand prions, Roger, and we've talked about it many times before and if you haven't seen our previous interviews then do go back and to look at them but for people that don't know can you just very briefly and very simply explain prions and also the relationship between we've all heard or most of us have heard of mad cow disease, or Christveld yacob disease, and most of us have heard of dementia and many of us get confused. But there's a tie up with all of those things isn't there can you explain very simply to our viewers, what prions are and how this affects those diseases in animals and humans that you've just mentioned for people that may not know. And also actually while I'm while I'm at it horizontal and vertical, they may not understand that too. Okay yeah so basically prions are infectious proteins. It's called transmissible and they there's a whole class of diseases called transmissible and spongiform and catalopathies, which is for yacob is the is the human version mad cow disease BSE is the cattle version. Scrapey is the sheep version, and what they discovered or what we originally thought was that just by eating infected beef back in the 1990s it was discovered in in in cattle then mad cow disease that eating that infected beef could could effectively infect people. But originally it was thought that it was just transmitted through the nervous tissue because it affects the brain hence this in catalopathy part of the name, but actually they've discovered that the prions will go into the meat as well so all aspects of it. Which is got a certain folding if you like a certain physical structure and it can change in structure and it forms a bit like a crystal, you know if you put a crystal have a crystal in a sort strong solution that the crystal grows. A bit like if once you get a prion in the body it causes these proteins to fold in another way which causes the proteins around them to to fold the same way and form these sort of plaques if you like, which cause disease, neurological diseases. So, you know, and horizontal spread is if something goes from peer to peer so within a herd it would pass you would pass for, you know, a long horizontal vertical spread is if it goes between generations. So, so that's basically the very brief overview, very simplified overview of brown so, but it can happen to other proteins as well, amyloid is another protein which you get amyloidosis which is sort of again a misfolding of proteins. And we know that the Jabs cause some of that as well. And of course you mentioned spongey form and careful apathy there and the spongey form I just say to our listeners who may not be aware I know that some of you will so apologies to those of you that are. But the spongey form comes from in humans where the brain looks like it resembles a sponge so it actually gets holes in it. And therefore people get very confused and it can often be misdiagnosed I guess for dementia or what I've certainly heard and I've coined the phrase turbo dementia because I'm hearing from a lot of doctors who have had patients with Alzheimer's or dementia. For years and years and years and all of a sudden they've deteriorated very quickly and have died much sooner than was expected so we also mustn't forget that Neil Ferguson professor Neil Ferguson imperial who did the modeling incorrectly for Mad Cow disease. He models for COVID am I right in that Roger. Yes he did yeah he predicted that would be a lot of a couple hundred thousand deaths from from BSE in people going to new variants CJD. But it thankfully it didn't happen in that way. Yeah and problems are very difficult to they can't be denatured by heat or anything like that or so they're very difficult to get rid of once once they've been established so that's what's so concerning to me. When I put did my open letter of concern to the very medicines directive about the potential use of mRNA vaccines. And not vaccines but we'll you know mRNA jabs in animals I was concerned that if they got used in the food chain that they could be prinogenic and could cause these start causing these problems. And so yeah I've sort of been trying to keep keep up to date and keep on top of that current situation. What is the current situation at the moment Roger with mRNA in animals I know everybody's because we're all, you know many people that are watching are quite cautious now about seeking advice from the NHS or seeking advice from a doctor. And now more people are even more cautious about what they're eating quite rightly. People are worried so what is the situation are animals, especially livestock ones in the food chain. Are any of them getting mRNA or is there more stuff to roll out yet. Certainly in the UK we haven't got mRNA in being used in the veterinary field at all here in the UK yet. It is all is already been in use in the USA for pigs since 2018. And actually this year later earlier this year starting in June, they started using a rolling out mRNA jabs in pets in in certain countries so it started off with and well they're calling them RNA particle vaccines. So they're trying to hide the fact that they are an mRNA jab. But they were enrolled out for rabies in Canada. And there was also a dog influenza mRNA product RNA particle product rolled out in USA, Mexico, Chile and the Philippines. And then there was an announcement in September this year that there was an FELV feed line leukemia virus mRNA particle vaccine for cats. And they're all being rolled out by a company called Novivac and they're called Novivac NXT vaccine. So Novivac have actually been around for a long time and a lot of the conventional vaccines are Novivac viruses. So just because you see Novivac on your pet passport or vaccination schedule or whatever, it doesn't necessarily mean that they've had an mRNA product. They aren't widespread yet. There are only these certain NXT products which have got this RNA particle technology as they're calling it within it. But I did a freedom of information to the VMD relatively recently to find out what the current state of play was and what they could tell me was that there aren't any trials ongoing at the moment in the UK. There aren't any products licensed in the UK at the moment. What they couldn't tell me obviously because I suppose it's commercially sensitive is what is in the pipeline. And we have to consider that if Merck MSD who have produced these rabies canine influenza and FELV for cats in the States and elsewhere, they're not going to not want to roll them out in Europe and the UK and all around the world. So we need to keep our eyes and ears to the ground. Certainly on that front. My freedom of information is good, but it doesn't last very long. It could be out of date in a month's time. So we've just got to keep our ears to the ground and see what's going on. And I'd like to reiterate that actually to everybody if you didn't catch it first time around what Roger said that was extremely valuable I think for everyone in fact that we know mRNA as mRNA right. But clearly it would seem that in the animal world, they've renamed it RNA particle vaccines. So I think it's very important that people are aware of that difference in language and know what to look out for and know what to ask about. So I think that's extremely valuable. So thank you for that. And I'm going to bring us to the bombshell now because you rang me the other day and you said, Debbie, I'm worried about something. And you know, all around us, we're seeing these stories of bird flu, avian flu transmission to human zoonosis, which is the transmission of a virus or illness from animal to human. But we've also talked about reverse zoonosis as well, which is the other way around. And in these days of bird flu, you suddenly thought and talked about PCR tests, didn't you, Roger? And you wrote an F.O.Y. And you've got a little bit to say about this. So I'm going to hand over to you to tell, to tell everyone what you've been doing, what you've been finding out and what the possible repercussions could be and the consequences. So over to you, PCR tests. Yeah, PCR. I mean, nobody had really heard of them, although they've been around for a long while, I suppose, until COVID came along. And we sort of, in Professor Fenton and a few others talked about false positives and things like that. And we sort of knew that they weren't necessarily as reliable as they were being made out to be, especially with PCI. What you do is you're cycling, you're amplifying at each cycle the amount of particle that you're trying to find up so that, you know, 2 becomes 8, becomes 16, becomes 32, becomes 64, 128, and keeps on going. And so very soon after you've done a relatively short number of cycles, you massively amplified what is there. And so there was a paper, I think, published, basically said if you cycle more than 23 times, then it means in order to find something to detect something. It means what was there in the original sample wasn't there in sufficient quantities to be considered really infectious in the clinical situation. And we also knew that Kerry Mullis, who developed the PCR testing got the Nobel Prize for doing so, he said you shouldn't be using PCR tests in a clinical situation. But it wasn't actually until I wrote an article for my sub stack as I'm on the sub stack as natural vet. And I did an article on PCR tests, and the penny suddenly dropped as to why Kerry Mullis had said you shouldn't be using PCR tests in a clinical situation. And basically, he developed PCR because he was doing sort of gene editing and genetic, you know, looking at mutations and things. And so he needed to be able to detect in his post treatment sample whether what he'd been trying to introduce it actually been successful or not. And so PCR is really developed to detect these relatively short strands of nucleic acid so about 20, 20 bases long, which isn't very, very much in the grand scale of how long our genes are, or how much nucleic acid material there are in viruses and bacteria and things. And so he was using it to distinguish between two known strands effectively. So he had a finite N equals two possibility of, you know, as to what the could be in his test tube, which is a very different situation when you've got a microbiome that has got millions and billions of bacteria and viruses throughout our on our skin. You know, gut in our ears, you know, every orifice that we have will have all these, say billions of micro microbiome in there. And so to use a PCR test on a swab, the chances of finding that sequence of relatively short sequence of only 20 bases is quite highly probable. And so you end up in a situation where organisms are being misidentified based on a PCR test so I was concerned. Obviously we, as you say, when we started hearing about avian flu and sort of lockdowns and the colds, and then there's talk of other potential and notifiable diseases around the countryside. And also with my background worry about as we spoke at the beginning about what is what is in the pipeline for farming. I was concerned about how PCR test might be being used in veterinary medicine. So I contacted the veterinary medicine's directive who are the authorization regulating body for veterinary medicines and products in the UK. And I asked them, how do you justify having authorized PCR testing in for clinical use on the basis that Carrie Malice said it shouldn't be done for these reasons. And the risk of false positives is very high. And how are you using PCR tests to make sure that those false positives don't manifest and the clinical decisions and important decisions in terms of farm lockdown and potentially cull orders aren't going to be based on something that's pie in the sky. And I was absolutely gobsmacked to get an email back saying, oh, we don't authorize them and not regulated. And it's like, hang on a minute. This is a medical instrument that's been used for a diagnostic situation. And I think every vet, probably in the UK, anybody who's anybody who's using the PCR test probably automatically seems like I did that there was some sort of check and balance on these tests a to make sure that they were what they said in the 10. And that the, there was a sort of knowledge and an understanding of what the risk of false positives and negatives are from them as well. And that they were then overseen and checked that regulated and authorized and all the rest of it. So I don't think from a real event in the UK didn't realize that they hadn't occurred. And I would, they suggested that I contact the PCR test manufacturers. Well, we know they aren't, you know, we know farmer is the biggest criminal group in the world. They've had the highest fines and, you know, had the highest harms to people and deliberately ignored it in the past, you know, what the level of trust, unfortunately, that has been generated as a result of their past history. And, you know, he's going to be extended to the medical instruments in terms of PCR testing everything else as well so asking, asking the manufacturer I didn't feel was a the right thing that I should have to do. And be, I wouldn't necessarily trust that that work had been done necessarily either. And so it does sort of beg the question as to how PCR tests are being used in clinical situations, especially on farms. And I understand that obviously if there is a concern over the potential presence of a disease such as even influenza, that they want a quick result. And obviously a PCR test will give a relatively quick result. But again, I don't know what the protocols are for doing those PCR tests as to whether they are, you know, how many cycles they're being put through. And as far as I'm concerned, a PCR test could only be considered part of the information necessary in order to make such a decision, because ideally the risk of false positives is such that unless there's some sort of isolation and identification process going alongside in parallel, then how do you know whether that PCR test is positive or true positive or false positive. So that was my sort of big concern is that then, you know, if PCR tests are going to be used on a wide scale use, you know, assuming there was some big outbreak of avian flu. And obviously we had scaremongering back in the summer of it being transmissible to cows and being in milk and things like that. So it wasn't clear how the PCR test might be being used and therefore what the farmers might be being asked to subject their cows to in terms of testing with possible major implications based on that result. And if it was just being based on PCR and there was no proper isolation and identification going on, then you could have potentially, you know, hell herds being culled without, you know, without without good scientific basis. And the trouble with isolation and identifications, it takes time. And of course, if it takes four or five days for identification isolation to actually get a result, you know, the defra would argue that that's too long to have waited so so I can sort of see a potential situation where a PCR test is used initially. And if it comes back positive a farm is he's perhaps given a lockdown, but you would hope no cull is, is put in order is put in place until at least an isolation and identification in a way that doesn't use PCR has been done to actually make sure that that is the real situation. So, there's a lot of concern, and not a lot of clarification, I'm afraid, but my concerns haven't been met, they haven't been really dealt with, and the VMD passed my questions on to the APHA. And I'd also chase them up as well to say, you know, what is what is the current situation how how a PCR tests being used on the, you know, within these notifiable disease situations. And what is what is your position in guaranteeing that, you know, a cold or even a lockdown order can have quite significant financial implications for farms. You know, it's, it makes it makes a big difference. So, you know, what is what is what is what is that protocol in place so they are still waiting for them to get back to me on that. And what people don't necessarily realize is farmers will get penalized. If their animals have put on lockdown and they say they know is a pig farm for argument's sake, and they can't sell send their pigs at the right time to market for slaughter. Then if they have to wait and the pigs obviously will carry on being fed and carry on growing and they'll carry on putting too much fat. The temple was regarded as too much fat down, you know, on the on the body composition then the farmers will actually get penalized for that for submitting pigs that aren't of the right quality, which is ridiculous because if they've been put on a lockdown order and this actually happened during COVID, you know, farmers penalized for submitting animals, even though everything had been locked down that were outside of the accepted parameters for the carcasses. So, you know, there are huge implications for farmers in terms of making sure that the testing that might have some implications for movement and also potentially for cull that those tests are as accurate as they possibly can be and PCR is not that. I think what you've just said there Roger is an absolute bombshell, quite honestly, and I have to sort of say the what if it really is a what if now I mean, you're saying that PCR tests are being used, although they're not mandated because there's no process there's no balances or checks or anything about them, or on them. And what if, for example, and I know that a flock has been culled fairly recently for avian flow and and I on the clock, by the way, but I do think this deserves just an extra few minutes because it's so huge, because what if, hypothetically, a farmer calls the vets because he's got two, three, four, maybe poorly chickens. The vet comes out with PCR tests. And what you're saying there, of course, is the alternative to a PCR test for people that don't know is a culture is doing a test that might take three or four days that's that's got to be incubated to be tested is got to be cultured in order to find out what the disease is. And of course, as you've said, Roger, that takes days, whereas a PCR test is quick. However, it's completely inaccurate. It wasn't designed to do this. And if vets are going into farms. By the way, how do you PCR test a chicken? Well, I mean, they must be taking swabs. And so, and it may be if they, you know, in that scenario, if they've got a flock of chickens and one or two of them had died, then then we do a post mortem on them. So I would hope that there is a culture and identification process going alongside in parallel. But, but I don't, you know, I would, yeah, I would hope that there is. And I suspect that there is. But, but obviously there is going to be a movement order slapped on that farm straight away if they do the PCS PCR testers as an initial, as an initial screen, if you like. But it even that has, has, has, you know, applications. I suppose you could argue if there wasn't a PCR test doing they would just put a movement order on them anyway until until an identification and isolation identification was properly carried out. So they would get, they would get a movement order slot slapped on them anyway. So a PCR, I suppose if it comes back negative, that could potentially give them an all clear, which is better than nothing. But even then we took, we still don't know what's the false negative risk of the PCR tests either. So it's, it's not ideal from, from anybody's point of view. And I 100% think that the vets don't realize, you know, they've given a test and it says PCR test. Or, you know, they're told that they can get a PCR test done on swabs for, for these diseases, they, they trust because we've got to, you know, what else are you going to do? You've got, you've got to trust that that test does what it says on the tin. And unless you've been through some sort of scientific training in terms of laboratory research to fully understand the PCR test. And it was only because I suddenly went into it in such depth in order to do my sub stack that it, it sort of suddenly dawned on me that I actually hadn't fully, although I, I'd understood the hesitancy around PCR tests during COVID, I actually hadn't fully understood it. And, and, and so that's, I think, is, is just the clinical situation where, you know, we, you know, PCR tests aren't supposed to be used in clinical situations. You know, and swab will be done. It might be a respiratory swab or it might be done on a, on a chicken's cloaca to, if it's, you know, if it's, you know, they've got diarrhea or something, then, then, you know, looking for, for maybe other other diseases as well. So, you know, I just wonder what, what's going on. And, you know, and people also need to understand the PCR test, you know, because obviously what I'm saying for animals is equally, equally applicable for, for people as well, not that we're under risk of, of a color. But obviously, you know, people, people, people are going to be potentially restricting themselves on the basis of a back of a PCR test without fully understanding that actually there's a, with, if they haven't got clinical disease symptoms, the chances of them being infectious and having that disease actually, without knowing the false positive rate of the of the PCR test is, is, is highly dubious. And, you know, as they're talking about this whole mRNA platform being something where you can then develop a vaccine very quickly, we can see potentially how if PCR tests are being used as they were during COVID talk to amplify and ramp up, you know, the scare and the warning over something, you know, maybe we've talked about it in terms of COVID, but it might be something completely different, you know, we know that they've developing an mRNA vaccine for people for for neuro virus. So if you can, you can imagine a situation where any person who had a bit of diarrhea suddenly got had a PCR test done on that sample, and it suddenly came up neuro virus that they, not that they need it will self limit in a couple of days anyway, but they will be used as leverage to encourage them all to make them have, you know, the equivalent, the appropriate mRNA chat. So I think, you know, we need to understand PCR testing and understand its limitations, because if we're not careful, it will be potentially be one of the leverages which will be used to push what we know they're trying to do, which is to really develop this whole mRNA platform across a whole myriad of different diseases and although we're early days now and there's only a few of them on the market, we certainly know that there are others intended and, you know, the last UK government invested so much money in Moderna to produce so many, you know, millions of pounds a year contract, that's, you know, they will want to be using using those Jabs and they want to position the UK as the head of the lead country in the whole mRNA platform You know, we've got to be aware of how that pressure could be brought to bear on people and for themselves but also for their animals, for using these products which we know actually as a whole platform is inherently unsafe for all the vets and farmers out there. What do they do? I mean, if a vet walks through into your farm armed with a PCR test, does the farmer question it? Does the farmer agree to it? And similarly, if you're a vet and you're watching should you be using a PCR test? What are the consequences of a false positive? Could that herd or could that flock be culled as a result of that one PCR test? I mean, these are incredibly important messages to farmers, to all of us, but especially to farmers and to vets because potentially, and I'm just hypothetically saying this now, but potentially if farmers are listening and they go, well, actually, do you know what? We'd rather be put on a movement order and have a proper culture and know for sure what we're dealing with rather than rely on a fake or an inaccurate test that could potentially wipe out my whole flock or wipe out my whole herd. Could we get scenes in the future of farmers going to vets? Actually, we don't want you coming onto our property. If Defra come down hard and say, yes, you have to use PCR tests and farmers decide, no, well, we don't want to because they're not accurate and they're not affecting. I mean, the farmers need to know this right. So, as they're doing their farmers protests and they're looking inheritance tax, they need to be look at the consequences of potentially something that may seem quite innocuous, a PCR test that they might not have considered could have huge consequences. Have I surmised that correctly or do you want to add to that or correct me on anything there? No, I think that's, you know, those potential situations are very valid. And I would say to any vets out there, you know, ask the questions. No, don't necessarily believe me, but ask you. Ask the questions yourself. No, look into the PCR test yourself. Make sure that you understand what it is that it's doing, how it works, how it could potentially produce false positives and false negatives. And recognise that if there is a high probability, as I think there is, of producing a false positive, that it is only used in combination with isolation identification. And, you know, be aware of other consequences of if PCR test is just being used on its own, you know, where is that potentially going to lead to in terms of the same movement orders or other restrictions or culls or whatever. And the farmers also need to be asking those questions of the vets as well. And sort of saying to them, you know, is that a PCR test that you're going to be doing if the vet says yes, then they can say, well, okay, are we doing an isolation and identification in parallel with that, what's the different, what are the timescales for those two different tests and they might say, well, we'll get the PCR test back tomorrow, but we'll get the identification and isolation potentially back in in, you know, four, five days time or whatever it is. And the farmers needs to then ask the question, well, if you PCR test comes back positive, what restrictions are you going to put on my farm, what implication is that going to have for my business. And, you know, if they come back and say, well, we're going to, we would issue a cull notice straight away, then, the farmer needs to say, well, hang on a minute, what if it's a false positive, because there's a potential here for it to be so because of how the PCR test works. So, you know, I think there has to be, everybody needs to question what they're doing and what they're allowing to have done. Because that because, you know, they need to understand what those implications are, and what is the risk of, you know, false test results and that's, you know, that should be standard practice and, you know, I'm not trying to ask anybody to be doing anything that other than what they should naturally be doing. Anyway, you know, farmers, obviously, especially, you know, whether it's a dairy farm, whether we know the cows are there on a much longer term basis than raising chickens for meat, for example. You know, the farmers have an affinity to those cows and those family lines that they've bred for hours of choosing in to breed those lines of cows and they won't want to risk, you know, a cull situation, unless it's absolutely 100% stone cold necessary for whatever reason. And, you know, those decisions can only and should only be being made when we've got really reliable tests that are being carried out in the way that they're supposed to be being carried out. And I should say, PCR test should only ever be used in combination with isolation and identification. If animals have voices, I think every single one of them that was listening to this interview would be screaming, "We want Roger as our vet!" Because on the column here, we've met some amazing doctors and many of us have said, "Oh, if only you were just around the corner, if only you were our GP." There are going to be many animals and many animal owners who are going, "Oh, we need to contact Roger, and all Roger's contact details will be in the article beneath this interview." But I really want to thank you, Roger, for joining the Dobs, for asking the questions, for questioning everything in order to bring this information to us, which I believe is crucial. I make no apologies for this interview being a little bit longer than normal, because I think it's incredibly important. And if you are a vet, if you are a farmer, if you know anybody who's a vet or a farmer, and you like what the UK column are doing, we're doing a lot of work on agriculture on one health, antimicrobial resistance, which is another one maybe we'll come to next time, Roger, with regards to animal health, then please share our material, spread the word, we need your help. And, um, Roger, just bless you and thank you, and it's over to you with our love and so many thanks, because you've helped me personally with our animals as well. So if anybody out there has got an animal that isn't very well, or you do need some alternative care, please contact Roger, he's your man. And with that, Roger, it's over to you for your last word, thank you. Thank you, Debbie, very kind words. Yeah, and I think I sort of want to finish on a point of hope, to be honest, you know, sort of what we're talking about is can be quite heavy and, you know, and maybe even depressing and obviously we don't want to be depressed, we want to feel that there's hope. And, you know, that that time will come, I am absolutely sure, you know, but we do need to be aware of what is happening, we do need to be aware of the gender so that we can see what's behind what's going on as well. And I think, you know, the important thing is, there is light at the end of the tunnel, I think people are waking up to what's going on, and, you know, the farmers are very much required, and, you know, we are going to get to a point where we're going to be back, looking more at regenerative farming, I'm sure, and locally produced food and, you know, the farmers, I would say, hang in there, and everybody else support your farmers, and, you know, hang on to that, that positive thing we've got. Obviously, Donald Trump was elected in the States, he's not there until the 20th, they will survive that long. But, you know, with Robert Kennedy doing what he's going to do in the United States, I'm sure some of those waves that he's going to start off over there will ripple over here. And it won't necessarily happen straight away but it will happen, so we've just got to sit it out and, you know, recognize that there are better times ahead and just hang on to that. And, you know, we do need to be aware and support those who are doing good work and resist those who are doing evil. ♪ ♪ Tired of the same old decorations, rediscover the magic of the holidays with the fresh new look from Family Dollar. Shop great deals on holiday must-have's like, pre-lit or unlit trees, or an immense decorations, or impress the neighbors with festive outdoor decor, inflatables, lights, and so much more. Check out the Family Dollar app to see how you can save even more with Smart Coupons. 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