allie was soooooooo tired but rly enjoyed talking to sarah
SongDive
Sarah & Allie - Desert Writing, Cray-Cray Pedal Steel, Mega Rock Docs, etc.
[MUSIC PLAYING] Hello. This is Song Dive, a new podcast hosted by me, Ali Kuva. And me, Sarah Tudson. Both Sarah and I are songwriters and performers, as well as producers and engineers. I make music in New York City under the artist name, Ali. And I make music in Los Angeles under the name Illuminati Hotties. We're starting Song Dive because we want to create a forum specifically for female and gender expansive artists to share details about their songs, such as why a song was written and also how it evolved from voice memo to final recording. We're diving deeply into the music, lyrics, production, and engineering behind some of our favorite artists and song makers' latest works. Without further ado, let's dive in. [MUSIC PLAYING] I'm here alone for a sec. And we're going to see if Sarah's going to log in. And if not, I'm going to chop all this stuff. Yeah, mmm, yeah. Hey. Hi. What's up? We made it. Yes. How-- How's it going? --what's your day been like, oh, yeah. Well, I just woke up. And it was Maddie's birthday yesterday. So we were like, went out and we saw Sophie Play's show. And then I woke up early because I had to chat with this guy from Avid, who's in London. And so he has a meetings schedule that starts at 2 a.m. West Coast time ends at 8 a.m. West Coast time. So anytime I've talked to him, I have to get on the very last meeting on his schedule, you know? Yeah. Well, what is your conversation about? Mainly, I just wanted some artist pricing to upgrade everything. For the home studio? Yeah, yeah, exactly. What are you wanting? What, if Santa was the most generous in Santa had unlimited resources, what would be on your Christmas list? I mean, I think the goal would be a perpetual, pro-tuals ultimate license. So I could do HD if I wanted. But-- What does that mean? Pro-tuals HD. Yeah. It's just-- I don't know. --the no latency. It's basically if you have a large format tracking studio. It gives you the most amount of tracks you can do, and also has hardware inserts and stuff that makes it so you can be inserting a compressor, an outboard compressor. And it functions the same as if you were just putting a plug-in on. And there's no delay and stuff. I see. Yeah, you can do that while you're live tracking. Yeah, so it's more if you have a pro-large studio with lots of outboard gear. And 99% of pro-tuals users, I feel like, don't need it. But I've just been in a few situations lately where I'm jumping into a studio where all the I/O is set up for HD. And then I'm doing this crazy workaround of trying to jump off of the main studio's rig, but still trying to use my plug-ins and my stuff off my computer. And I just want to not have to do that. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Cool. I mean, do you think, does it sound like they can maybe-- you can work something out? Or are you still figuring that out? Well, he said he can give me a year for sure, but I'm kind of like, I don't want to do the subscription. Like, can we just do it? I would even just-- Yeah, like, I'll get a tattoo, pro-tuals HD. Or like, advent, like, it'd give me the lifetime. Well, also, like, I'm just like, I will, like, pay-- if there's like an artist, like even a half-off thing, like, I would pay for that. You know, like, I don't need the whole suite for free. If you can't do that, I get it, you know? Yeah. Anyway, what's up with you? Yeah. It's been such a crazy, like, couple weeks. Yeah, and this is like, we did an episode last week with Lucy Murphy of Poise, which was really cool. I need to, like, edit that out and put it out today. Yeah. Yeah, but yeah, I've just been, like, so-- I've just been so all over the place busy and mostly with good things, but, you know, there's obviously just been so much going on in the world. And it's a lot to just, like, manage on a micro level and also a macro level that's felt like a lot. But, you know, I'm really glad we can do this. And, like, this sort of routine we can get into is really nice for me, especially on, like, a Monday, because it means really something to look forward to. Yeah. Appreciate that. I know to-- yeah, of course. I appreciate you. Well, yeah, so we were thinking we'll just pick each pick a song of our own that we can dive into. [GASPS] And you mentioned this on Kickflip, which I was just listening to. And it's so, so sick. Like, I'm not sure I've heard that song before. Yeah, it's a weird one. Yeah. Yeah, what made you want to focus on that one for today? I was just, like, thinking about-- first, I was like, maybe I'll go way back and, like, do an old, old song or, like, a single-- something that doesn't exist on a record or something. But Kickflip used to be, like, kind of a big part of the live set, I think. And then it kind of just isn't anymore. And I like it. I just like that. Like, it's a weird song. And it's a fun song and fun to play. It was weird to make. And yeah, it just was kind of like, I miss that song, you know? I can under-- I mean, I can imagine. Especially, I'm sure it would be really fun live. I'm not sure if you did it on that tour in 2022 at all. We probably did. OK. That we were touring, like, that album. So-- and it was, like, I think we played it. Yeah. Yeah, OK. Maybe not. Well, it's such a sick song. And, like, lyrically, I mean, if we just-- if I can just ask a couple of questions. There you go. So it seems like maybe it was more of, like, a stream of consciousness type thing. Totally. It was written very stream of conscious. Like, it was one of those songs that, like-- this actually doesn't really happen to me that much, which-- I feel like some people are, like-- this is like all of their songs are like this. But it was like-- it was stream of consciousness. It was very just like in a notes app being like, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, all the way down. Like, I was like in the desert making a record with a friend of mine. And like, we had borrowed-- like, this is so crazy. It was this friend-- his name is Wolf. And like, he was playing bass in a lot of bands. And he's kind of like-- had like a friendship with like the war paint people. And so like, we went out to-- Stella had like this desert house, the drummer. And she, for some reason, let Wolf just like, make his record there. And I was like engineering it and kind of like co-producing it with him. And so we just like wrote out and did like, Woy's week. He was like me, him, and his drummer, who was like this kind of like-- like, not new jazz, but kind of like in that world of like jam, like improvisational-- Like music school vibes? Yeah, definitely music school vibes. And like-- Like, you majored in your instrument that you were recording. Yeah, exactly. Like, both of them really fantastic musicians. And so it was like really like-- it was like really like scrappy and weird. And we were like drinking beer at like 9 a.m., you know? And like, doing like redacted things in the desert. And like, we were driving some-- like, Wolf was like driving us to the grocery store or something. And I was like sitting in the back. What? I was just going to ask a question about like living in the desert. I've like never really been to a desert. And like, do you have to like get all your-- like, did you all like get all your groceries for like the week ahead of time, especially because you're making a record? Yeah. So did you kind of like post up in this place or-- Yeah. Yeah, I mean, out in Joshua Tree or like 29 Palms, it's like-- it's not really the middle of nowhere anymore. There's like quite a bit of like kind of suburban style living. And then there's also houses that are like way far out. And just for sake of like saving, you know, it's usually like-- it's like a 25 or 30-minute ride to the grocery store. So for sake of like saving time and just being able to post up and like do the music, that was like more of the reason to get everything, you know? I think at once. Yeah, yeah. Would you ever do like a shipping container like a couple months in like a going-and-up shipping container? Why not? I mean, it's so-- Yeah. It's really weird out there. But yeah, I just was like sitting in the backseat of the car and being like having like a brain brain download or something, you know? That's so sick. Yeah. And like, yeah, like, OK, that like guitar solo in the ending? Yeah. I truly never-- OK. Yeah, I was like, I've never heard anything like that. Yeah. Like, what the fuck is going on there? Is it just pedal steel? Yeah, yeah. It's-- so it's my friend Colin Pastore who mixed that album also, you know Colin-- Nashville? Yeah. Amazing engineer producer. Like, he's worked on some really cool stuff. And like, we've been friends for since college. And he's always sort of been like an angel. Like, in the rafters of Illuminati hotties. And-- Nice. I didn't know that. Yeah. And he played pedal steel. And he kind of like-- he's not very like traditionalist about pedal steel. He's an amazing player. But like, he kind of came up playing for like indie rock bands, like when that started to be like cool, you know? Like, bony bear and bright eyes. And like, these bands that we're sort of doing like faux Americana, but like in like a indie rock guitar band. Like, so he plays a lot of that. And then obviously, like because he lives in Nashville, he gets asked to do like kind of true country. But yeah, so he has this like kind of weird rig with like a lot of pedals and like between him like kind of just going nuts on his like thing. And then me like doing kind of some crazy editing. That's a solo. Thank you for elaborating and enlightening me. Because it sounds like a-- it sounds at times, yeah like a blues, I don't know. Like I'm-- I don't want to like cheapen the experience. Like every-- I was going to say like a blues rock solo. But like, that doesn't sound interesting. And this is super interesting. Like, it sounds like it's not played on a slide, a lot of it. It sounds like it's being fretted. And then I thought it was like, oh, maybe that's some sort of like almost like a digitech whammy pedal. Like how like flips up an octet. There was like that fluidity. Like it would do a couple runs. And then it would go like, and just do, you know, like chromatic slides and shit. It was so cool. I didn't think of it. It is kind of like a whammy solo more than like somebody going up with a steel thing. Yeah. Yeah. And did you say-- go ahead. No, I mean, I mean, you know, I could wax poetic, I guess, about like crazy pedal steal out of context. And I loved this one. It was really fun. That should be its own episode. Like truly, like the pedals to episode number one. Yeah. It's such a beautiful instrument and like not underrated at all. Like I feel like it's on everything now. But also it's like any time I hear it, I'm like, yeah, that's perfect, you know? Yeah. There's literally like sample packs for it now. Like I was like seeing it another day. I mean, it's just for a while. But it's funny, like you're looking at drum loops or like, yeah, like really cool drum loops, various styles. And then I saw like, yeah, just like pedals, different pedal steel players. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's how you know it's become ubiquitous. Exactly. It's such, you know, we live in the 2024 and 2025 are becoming the year of country music more than ever before. So the 2020 is maybe in general is like, truly country. Yeah. I've definitely like, you know, that's hard to miss, I think, in like the zeitgeist of it all, especially like the like Beyonce record like going there. And it's so cool to see as to something I haven't articulated much. But just like thinking about like, you know, the politics involved in like, not of the songs themselves, but like the the slants, like the the views and like values of like the artists. I've always been a huge fan of like Jason Isabel, for example, and like so many others who are like a little more vocal about like donating or just spreading awareness to like causes they believe in. And it's interesting because I, you know, I lived in Nashville for like nine years. Right. Tennessee is a very red state. Nashville is like a tiny blue dot in there. Yeah. Like in the middle of it. Yeah. And so you have this like country music influence even in Nashville, obviously. But there's this like kind of prevailing sense of like, I don't want to say like liberal values, but you know, it's it's definitely a different vibe than like even on Broadway, the strip of like, I actually weirdly have not been to, I've been to Nashville so many, so many times for extended periods of time. And I've never been mostly because I usually stay with like homies and they're all like, we will never like they're like, no chance we're taking you over there, you know. Yeah. I wonder like what I'd be interested to hear their like reasons why they don't go. I mean, I'm just like really sensitive to like loud places, but it definitely has a prevailing like it's it's not only like a touristy area and you know, locals like don't like to typically go to those places wherever whatever city they're in. But also, I think like a lot of the more like right wing vibes are like permeating in music row and are like celebrated there. Yeah. Yeah. So they have a safe space for safe space for unsafe spaces. Yeah. Anyways, I'm so excited by the, you know, how country influences growing and becoming more ubiquitous because like in the 2000s, I remember like, I really liked country music, but I heard so many people say like, I just I'll listen to anything but. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. I think it was just because of like twang and like the same reasons that people like it right now. Yeah, it's very interesting. There's definitely a deeper political conversation to be had. And you know, I think the the artists that like like it's so there's so much to say about this actually like, you know, having not lived in Nashville as ever. Also living exclusively on the coasts, like, you know, like I grew up here and I went to school in Boston and I came back and I went to LA like, you know, I'm like very detached from like what the majority of this country listens to, I think, other than like, obviously pop and like rap. I'm like tapped into those worlds, but I'm like, there is like a mainstream country culture that is like, talking that it's as big as it is kind of. But then you're like, think about what where the state of this country isn't it? And it makes sense. And like, you know, like now it's it has permeated to the coasts. And like, we have you have the phenomenon of like a silver light cowboy and like line dancing bars in LA and like, you know, and cowboy. Yeah, I mean, it's so funny. It's such a vibe. It's like, yeah, this, it's just it's cosplay, you know, it's like no one. Yeah. No one who grew up here or lives here like had has to wear a work where, you know, like, I'm pretty sure it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Your steel toe boots are getting a lot of use out of those. Exactly. Yeah, like a coffee shop, like working with your laughs. Yeah, exactly. It's not it's we're not talking about like people who are in construction or like, you know, if you go further out against like agriculture, like working class and yeah. Color stuff. Exactly. Yeah, it's yeah. Go ahead. Well, I was going to say like even on like a, you know, like if we go to like kind of greatest, what is it like greatest common denominator or whatever? Like, you know, like my normie friends or like, whatever you want to say, like people who are like just non musicians, non artists. It's like their background music is like Morgan Wallen, you know, Zach Bryan. Gotcha. Yeah. That's super interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Much to be said, I like kind of like accidentally like fell into the whole of the, this specific topic. Incidentally. And I was like, fuck, I like didn't really prepare any thoughts on this. And now I'm just like rambling, but yeah, it's really interesting. So we'll see. We can check back in on it. Maybe do a pedal still episode. But I also apologize for how far off the track we've gotten for the song kickflip. I mean, it's cool. I think it's cool to do a chatty episode. Like me too. You know, like there's a starting point and there's also like other stuff in music to be talking about if we don't have a target acquired podcast, aka guest host. Yeah, we'll see. We're all ghost. I hope that it's not like a conservative wisdom is like ends up like influencing people who like to listen to country music. And I hope it's more like the roots of like folk, like Bob Dylan and like so many of those great artists. I know that, you know, folk is not country, but with the similar like a twang acoustic guitar and like a songwriter like giving, you know, like singing lyrics from like their heart. Like I hope that like that that is what. I hope so. It could be cool to I could see an outlaw revival come in like. There's a show me. Yeah, like show me as what as Bob Dylan. And then there's another one about Bruce Springsteen now. Like if Jeremy, what's that guy's name? Jeremy Alan White. Jeremy Alan White is Bruce Springsteen. Cool. It seems so soon because he's still alive, but. Right. And he's like crushing it like right. To be fair. I wonder how they feel about that like. I mean, I guarantee you like, I feel like my read on it here. I'm going to just make a hypothesis. Bruce Springsteen is heavily involved in his own. Biopic is my guess. Yeah. Bob Dylan has no idea it's even being made. Like he's just now hearing about it. Yeah. He's like, what? Yeah. He's just chilling in Malibu like completely removed from society. Yeah. Yeah. He kind of earned it. He earned it. He earned it. He earned it. He earned it. Yeah. Let him just, yeah. Do whatever he wants. Yeah. And peace. Yeah. Yeah. I heard the, I never saw the Elton John one, but obviously Elton John is still alive and like making, you know, like he's still working. Making art. That is cool. And I, yeah. But I didn't see, I didn't see that film, but uh, I heard that he also had like a very, a very heavy hand in the, or at least the editing and like what ended up being in it. Yeah. I think it was like pretty heavily music based. Like it was like almost like when they do like a review musical using, you know, they put like a storyline through the music. Yeah. So I think he wanted to be involved in like the re-records and stuff. Yeah. That makes sense. Did you ever hear, have you seen that like the one about Queen? I'm sorry. I don't know any of the names of these. Like this is not really my like, this is not like, when I go to watch films, like I'm not necessarily looking for anything music related because like that's my chance to enjoy anything else. Totally. But the one about Queen Bohemian Rhapsody, I think it's cool. Yeah. I saw that one, you know, it's, it's like all biopics have like a corny like thing, you know, they're trying to make like Hollywood, they're infusing Hollywood into like someone's like, you know, I mean, I would consider Freddie Mercury to have a pretty remarkable life. But like, yeah, I don't know if it's like remarkable in a way where like, you know, like it's not like acting back or something like it's just, they skip a lot of the like, nitty gritty and you know, it's more just like the guys in the studio being like, what if it went like this? Yeah, you know, the foot foot hand, the famous. Exactly. I love that. It's my favorite beat. Like it's really like variations of foot foot hand. It's like prehistoric. Exactly. So like, it's fun, but it's Hollywood. It's not, it's not like a documentary, you know. Yeah. Well, I heard, I was asking in part because I heard to the great band that like, a lot of the nitty gritty stuff there actually was that. And you know, it was like there, there were, you know, points of conflict like that. But then the band, like the band who is still alive. I think maybe all, all other three members are alive today. Maybe or whoever is alive. Yeah. Like Brian Mayes. I think so. Anyways, that they like, we're like, like, like, we want it to be like, fuck yeah, a queen, like epic shit all day. I mean, if you had the choice, why not, you know? I get, I, yeah, home I just say. Yeah. And also there's like an element of like, this is like a tangentially related to the pod is like, yeah. You know, they like washed a lot of the like, devastating queer storyline of his life, you know. They made it very like, not important to the script and almost kind of like, hamfistedly had like a kind of like, illusion to like, a lover. But yeah, you know, like. Yeah. Like, tell me about any one relationship he had, like once he came out, or even before, like, that's so fascinating. Like, I don't know at what point he came out, but like, it wasn't in the beginning, right? Yeah. Like, yeah, I mean, I think it was like, I don't even know if he did come out. I think it was like, yeah, lied and then, you know, I mean, yeah, like, I'm not totally sure actually, I don't know a whole lot about queen. And the movie taught me nothing more than what I thought. Yeah, I know the same. Yeah, I literally had to turn it off. Like, and I was on an airplane, like, there was nothing else to do. And I was like, I can't like it honestly felt disrespectful to the band to like, watch it. Like, I was like, I don't know. It's not right. Yeah, I'll say like, one of my favorite music docs is on, I think it's on YouTube. And it's like, the reason I like it is because it's so like, dry and like, there is zero, like, production, like, it's not like, you know, there's obviously the Metallica one, which is, I have not seen it yet. Some kind of monster, it's amazing. And it's like, really, it's pretty real. But it's also crazy because this band is like, the most famous metal band ever, you know, and they have infinite budget and like, it's a doc, but it is also Hollywooded out a little bit. But there's this documentary of Aerosmith making the album pump, which is like, largely kind of like a bad album. There's a couple of songs. Like, I would even say Aerosmith, not a great band to me. No, I cannot get into it. I cannot get into it. Yeah, but them, the way they documented making this album is so like, uncomfortably real. Like, there's just like, scenes of like, the producer, like, sitting on the floor being like, I don't know what we're gonna do. Like, this song is like, I don't know how to fix this, you know? I can't make this good, sorry. Yeah, and so it's really interesting and you, it feels realistic to like, studio life and you're feeling like them have like euphoric like breakthroughs with songs and then you also are feeling like the hours, that and also like yeah, yeah, a drug fueled decision or just like them sitting there and like an A&R being like, yeah, it sounds fine, you know, and then being like, Yeah, I mean, that must be tough having to like, fucking present your art to like a board of people that aren't like your audience. And like, ask it like, is this okay? Like, I spent your money this way, how do you feel? Yeah, yeah. I want to ask, I think Carol's in the other room, I want to ask, I can't remember the name of this doc that we watched a couple months ago, that was like, fantastic. Hey, Carol. Oh, they're gone. Yes, I'm wearing sweatpants. I realized that my reflection of my butt was like, in the mirror and it was like, tons of, it was like, this much parade underwear and then star sweatpants. Yeesh! Um, he's such a legend. I just like, am blanking on the name right now. Do we have a genre? Yeah, he's a folk. He's a really, I again feel so stupid. God, a song, a song, something about the song. You gotta sing the song. Maybe, maybe she's just, for the sake of the song, that's what it is. Is it, it's not Pete Seeger, is it? Town's Van Zant. Town's Van Zant. Town's Van Zant. Like cooler than Pete Seeger. Yeah, like, so fucking cool. Like, I didn't really know much going in. I didn't even know any songs. Like, on. But yeah, like, highly recommend that if you want something that'll like, inspire, I don't know, if Timmy is very like, inspiring and it was just, it just made me want to like, let's like, keep making stuff, because it's just worth reporting on your own experience. Like, as a, as a person in this crazy world. Yeah, yeah. You know, whether anyone hears it or not. Like, as a spiritual exercise, I think that's kind of like, it seemed to be at like, the crux of his ethos. I'm curious, like, well, reporting on yourself is a really interesting phrase. And I'm curious, like, maybe just in general, like, like, I feel like in the last, I don't know, I feel like now, maybe now that I'm like, have my shit together more. Yeah. I've got like, a little bit less to report on. And I'm feeling like, what do I start observing? You know, I don't want to make like, records that are like, necessarily like, character studies or anything. But I'm a little bit like, want to be living a life like, that's worth reporting on them. And I feel like it's easy to do that when you're like, having chaos in your life. And it's like, a little bit more delicate or something or like, elusive when, when you're like, you know, when you're, your life is like a little more routine or, you know, I'm curious. I think there's like a, well, yeah, I think there's such a, there's like a balance because it's like, you need like, experiences to talk about like, you first of all, you need to like, take off your headphones every now and then turn off the podcast, just pay attention to what's going on around you. And like, the, there's so many things in life where like, when I pay attention, I'm like, damn, this is like, hilarious. And also so sad. Yeah. Totally. Like, those are like, my two main takeaways. Yeah. But yeah, it's, it's all like, there's stuff there. It's almost like Nora Efron, like everything is copy, right? Yeah, right. But at the same time, like, I need a certain amount of routine and some more, just like stability, right? But creatures, like we like routine. I just need time to like, be able to write that shit down. Interesting. And if, if I'm just like, steam rolling from one thing to the next, and like, if mental health is not helping and like, whatever it might be, yeah, maybe like, there's still like, it's like, almost like a geezer, like yellowstone or something like it like, it might still like, spout through and a burst. Kind of like you're like, your stream of consciousness, lyricism with this song, you know, like that'll still escape. But I think it's really, it's like, it's also really fulfilling to have like, you know, a morning where it's, you're not like, your calendar isn't booked in the morning. And like, you can just like, what about it? Yeah, just like, free write, I guess, you know. Do you have a writing, like a regular writing practice? Not at all. It's so just, whenever my like, my life is so, like, it's so ever changing right now. Like, like, yeah, there's very few things that feel consistent. It would be like, Caro, my amazing partner, like, I feel like I can really trust that they like, you know, will be there for me and I really want to be there for them. So we kind of like, have those vows to each other just in the relationship. And we like, check in on that. And I have like, my bandmates and like, they're amazing. And we've just also kind of made that pact of just like, just to be in each other's lives, whether it's musically or not. But other than that, like, although like, yeah, it's like, I'm on a lease till February. And then like, we don't even know. So like, stuff like that, it's, yeah. And I don't know if that's more like money being so like, uncertain. Yeah. But it's probably not just that, it's probably a lot of things, you know. But yeah, to like, have time to write is a privilege. But it's also a privilege to like, have experiences to write about, I guess. Yeah. And just like, get out there. So I hope that, yeah, you can have like, because you've been, you've been like, working hard. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I just like, you said you're, you mentioned like, you're going to yoga the other day to like, be nice to yourself. Like, that like, makes my heart so happy to hear. Because like, you deserve that. And you know, whether you're writing about downward dog or whatever it is. Like, like, I, I'm here for your journey. And like, I want to know what you're up to. Thank you. Well, likewise, I appreciate that. Yeah. Am I kind of crying right now? Oh my God. It's so much more obvious than I thought it was. Fuck. I wasn't going to tell you. Yeah, yeah. I can't be shading tears. I feel like I'm like a person who's not easy. I don't cry easily. But then like, sometimes weird stuff really makes me cry. And then I'm like, so embarrassed. But like, it's so not an embarrassing thing, you know. Is it because like, there's stuff under the surface that like, you're a low key, like kind of thinking or like, that it makes you think about. So you're like, kind of like that. Yeah. It's definitely just me trying to maintain irresponsible amounts of control. And then something, you know, is like secretly lurking all the time. And then, well, actually, I mean, this is like a very, I don't even know this is worth talking about so aside from the conversation. And I do want to get into your songs too. We're already like, deeply in this, but that's fine. Last night. It's fun. My friends, I we saw with my friends. So if you play her artist project is called Gordy. We should have her on here, actually. Yeah. Yeah. With love too. I'm a texture right now. Actually. Hell yeah. It's a texture right now. Yeah. She's so cool. She's great. Her music is amazing. She's really like, she's put out an EP and she's like, I think seeing like the fruits of like a lot of labor of like getting this project back after like, you know, she's Australian. So the pandemic was like a, they were so isolated during the pandemic and b, she's a doctor also. So she was like, yeah. Yeah. Was like, I think pretty busy doing like medical work while she was. It's so fascinating. Like, yeah, yeah, I wonder how. Yeah. Anyways, it's absolutely crazy. I like have so like, I can't even imagine. You know, just doing music, which is like arguably the easiest job of all time. Like, I'm so overwhelmed. And then she's like, also like, takes care of like emergency patients. Yeah. But so we went to see her play and she did this show at a historic institution in Los Angeles called the Bob Baker Marionette Theater. Not only does she play music, but there's puppets also happening. And they do a few shows a year with like, usually like a solo artist. And like kind of like, they try and pick like a, you know, it would be like crazy for like a rock band to do it. But it would, it makes sense for like. Have we set like the puppets, like, washing into it? Yeah. Like, it'd be amazing. Um, so this strings tangled. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, the mechanics are fascinating. But so like, this place has been around for like 60 years. And it moved locations recently, but it used to be like an echo park near downtown. And yeah. My parents took me and my cousins when I was like five. And I had an absolute meltdown. And I couldn't handle it. And I went and I sat on the curb on the street and downtown for the show. And while my cousins were, you know, watching. And so I was like really nervous to go see this show. And I was like, I want to be. Yeah. And like, it was like primal. I don't know why primal levels of like, like. I like couldn't handle it. I was trying to be an adult. And I just sat, I had a hat. And I was like, there's like tears coming into my eyes. Like, and I couldn't. I don't know why. Like, I can't tell you what happened. You know, I don't know why. But it was like fear, fears, tears or. Yes. It was uncomfortable. Like, I don't want this. Yeah. But it's like, I guess I'm just illustrating the point of like, there is like things lurking that I just like, you don't ever. Like, I don't have to face that fear ever in life until like, my friend happens to be playing a show there, you know. Yeah. And then. And also, yeah, it's like, you never know when it. Yeah. And at the same time, something you said earlier, it's like something about the puppet thing is like hilarious and deeply sad to me. Sorry. What can, like, can you say more about you? I mean, that's it. It just is like upsetting. But like, there is like a humor, I guess. Yeah, I mean, we're laughing about it now. There's like a, not a cliche, but like, or like a maxim. But like, there's a saying that goes like, you know, like comedy is tragedy plus time. Yeah. Right. So it's like, yeah, it's almost, yeah. And that's like, you know, a wonderful, like coping strategy, I think, in a lot of cases, right? Like, I don't know if there are there like, times when you've felt that specifically was like, important for you to be able to, like, maintain a sense of humor or like, you know. Yeah. Oh yeah. Did you ever lean into anything like that? Yeah. As a way of kind of processing or just like, yeah. I mean, you know, as far as this goes, like, there's nothing, I don't think there's anything for me to process, because I just hope that I won't ever have to like, run into too many marionettes again in my life. But like... The rarity of it. Yeah, like specific. Just like, yeah, I was ready to like fight. But like, definitely, I think comedy is an easy coping mechanism. It's so easy for me to make a joke about things, and it's easy to do. It's like, such a nice way to be like, put your arm in between something and laugh, you know. Anyway. It felt like I was like, oh no. It got so close to the camera. Not 3D vision. No, I am 3D vision. Yeah, yeah, it's by kids. It's like, dude, you're like, well, we should do that. I don't know if you... Yeah. That'd be awesome. I love the gimmick. Anyway, what? Yeah. So you had two songs that you flagged. Is there one you want to talk about? Or should we just... I mean, I listened to both this morning. And first of all, I'm a huge Ryan Hemsworth fan. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Me too. He's like... No, I'm... Amazing. Yeah, he's so great. He like just texted me like last week and was like, I just saw the text like preview, you know, and it's like, this song still rips. And I was like, what could that be? It was like something that we had like, made together, but you know, it just never escaped. Yeah. Finder, a Dropbox. How did you start working? Cool. When I started, I submitted like an EP or something to, um, Saddle Creek. And then I didn't hear from them for like, you know, it's like, demo submission. Like, you never hear back. But I heard back like six months later. And they're in our person at the time. And we just, you know, kept a correspondence. And they were very nice about like, hey, you should like, you know, so and so is coming through Nashville. Like, go see that show or, you know, like introducing me to people. And yeah, so they introduced me to Ryan. And obviously, and we've only met in person a couple of times. Cause he lives in Canada. But, but yeah, when I was in Nashville and using Canada, just over the pandemic, you know, we collaborated a bit. And y'all have collaborated quite a bit too. It's, it seems like, right? Yeah, I've done some stuff like just top lining. Like he'll send me random, you know, similarly just like, we'll send me a text like, yo, like check this out. Yeah. You know, or like. And it's great. Yeah. And it's always great. He's so talented. He's like, as kids, he's like kind of working around, like a very complicated schedule, family schedule. And then like, yeah. Like I asked him to like, do a track for like, literally a voice memo I had once. And he just like, was like, hey, I just like put this together. But like, I'm sitting in a coffee shop. So I don't know. It's like my work boots. Yeah, exactly my work boots. And it's like, it's like shoe guys guitar. I'm like, how did you even make that on your laptop? Like, right. He's like, but he programmed it all. It sounds like guitars. That's so cool. Yeah, he does things in the box that like, they sound way more organic than what I try to do. Like, for example, like drum stuff. Yeah. He just is very talented at like, blending things all together. Like producing, you know, like arrangement. And yeah, so, so anyways, the song cast iron. It's like one of my most popular songs on streaming right now, even though we like never play it live. Cause it's like a bit of a like an odd ball. Like it, but that being said, yeah, like his, he just sent that to me to like top line or whatever. And I liked it so much. It just kind of like sat down at the kitchen table and was like, all right, the next like hour or two is for this now. And yeah, yeah, it was just, yeah. So that was a pandemic thing. And yeah, I like that song. And yeah, it's also interesting. Cause yeah, that's definitely the only like Ali song where like someone else has made like the entire instrumental or even some of it. Totally. But I love that. And I like, I want to, I would like to do more of that kind of thing, you know? I don't know, do you, do you want to do more of that kind of thing? Or are you? Yeah. It takes the pressure off in a really cool way. And then like, I'm a little torn. I'm sure you feel this way too. I mean, not to put words in your mouth, I guess. But you know, like, it's really cool to just be like, yeah, and like the pop star and like put a vocal over something. But then also like, like Ryan did the song throw that's on my album. And okay. Yeah, he, wait, he did. He made the track. He made the track. But then it like, yeah, exactly. He sent me a track, no vocal. I just toplined it. And then it got to a point where I was like, I actually need the stems. And I just toplined it. And then like, but it gets to a point where you're like, I actually do want to put my hands on this. Like, can you send me the stems? And then you redo your guitars. And then you redo, then like you rewrite a new synth line. And then it, but I mean, there is like, there is also Ryan stems in there. Cause there was some things I couldn't beat. And then there was some things where I was like, I just need, I need to do it. I need to do real drums, you know? Yeah, it's really cool. So like, I don't, I don't, I don't think I've ever done that. But yeah, it's like, he like, wrote a lot of the instrument, it sounds like. And then, or at least like the bones or the initial thing. Exactly. And then you like ex, you kind of like executed it and like performed it almost, right? Totally. Yeah. In addition to obviously writing all the lyrics and the vocals. Exactly. That's super cool. Yeah. Yeah. What about you? Are you trying to do more like in that space collaboratively, like with other producer or other like trackwriter? Yeah, something similar. So yeah, I'm not working with like anyone else like in that sort of way. Although I'd, you know, it's like, we'd love to do something with Ryan anytime for fun. But Caro and I actually, like we've started this like project called Tall Girlfriends. Yeah. Because we were just like, the way that we would just like enjoy time together was just like playing guitar on the couch. And we just started, you know, messing around and singing things that we were seeing in the world or wanted to say to each other. And yeah, so then we got to the point where we had so many songs and I was like, we should like play a show or something, you know. And so we've kind of started doing that a little bit. Like we're playing tonight in New York. But anyways, that is for me like probably the most like collaborative relationship I've had in terms of like building a song together. I don't know. There's been a lot of history like with other, you know, projects and whatnot. But like it's really, it's really, really exciting to. Yeah, to like, I mean, they're such a, such a great song. Like, I love what they come up with. So, and then they'll do like a verse and like, or like maybe they'll just send me a verse sometimes. And then on my own time, whenever I have a free time, like, oh, and write a chorus to this. And then the second verse. And so that's kind of like how we've been doing it. Yeah. And it's just really fun. Like it, like it definitely, it definitely to like what you said, like to kind of takes the pressure off or something. Like any sort of self-imposed, like I, I have to like, do this and I have to do it alone. Oh my, oh my, on my own. Sometimes you just gotta, you gotta like have that. But other times it's like really, yeah, I just think music is like, it's almost like best enjoyed with other people. Single drop when? We're trying to do one like before the year is over. So, I actually wanted to like, I'm not sure which one we're doing, but I have a couple that are like, ready-ish. But we were like, maybe we should like, get Sarah's like, final mixed thoughts, you know. Yeah, I'm happy to listen. Or teak or whatever. Sure. Yeah, 'cause it's very like, we're kind of doing it all here in the bedroom, but try to make that sound as best as it can. That's a dope vibe. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then like for a lot, like we're doing some live tracking, this like next weekend. Awesome. With a band. So that's, that's exciting too. But yeah, I would love, I would love to get your, yeah, your thoughts or whatever. Anytime. Awesome. Yeah. I have a question about, well, just quickly about E-T-Y-G. Well, yeah, yeah. I thought that one would be fun to do. That's such a fun song. And like, I guess it's not a question. I just, I love it. And I feel like it's so like, I'm like, it's like a timeless song or something. Like it feels so like, like I just was like, hearing it in a way where I'm like, damn like, HyperPop kids would go crazy. Like if this song was like pitched up, you know, but then I'm also like, it's also just like, sits in like beautiful like indie rock, like, you know, the spaces that we both like, I think are, I feel most comfortable in and like folk world. And I don't know, just like goes really hard. And I'm like, rapper, some rapper, please sample this. Is my like, Death. Whoa. I never thought of that. That's so cool. That's a light shot for it, you know. We should. Yeah, I would love to hear that. Yeah. It just like goes really hard, you know, like, so that's not a question at all. But it's just. I don't know. This is like for sharing thoughts, this format. So I really, no, but I so appreciate that. It's very flattering and also, yeah, I've thought in the last couple, I've thought before, like should I like read, like what if I like read, reimagined this for fun? Because I do think it's like there, you can go some different ways with it that are not maybe exactly like the recording. So yeah, I'm, yeah, I'd be happy to. Yeah, I don't know. I'm open. I'm talking to the universe now. Like, yeah. Exactly. If anybody wants to like do anything with it or like I'm totally down. So I'm saying like. Yeah. Somebody, somebody will like, it just is like has that thing where I'm like the, well, I mean, I guess like maybe I could say this about a lot of good songs, but also, but not all good songs are like this. There's like a thing about it where I'm like, this is just like the way that Ali has imagined this, but there's so many formats that this song works in. And maybe that's like why it feels timeless or like just sort of like legendaries. It's like, like just could be pulled into like another thing. It could have another life over and over again. Yeah. Which is like, that's the goal kind of music, I think. Damn, you're kind of blowing my mind a little bit. Like, I don't, I really have not thought this way. Not only about this song, but like, I've always just been like, oh yeah, like I want to cover like, girl from the north, you know, whatever. Yeah. By Bob Dylan and like, but he's like, you do it your own way. Yeah, that would be, that's a kind of blowing my mind. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Yeah, of course. Yeah. It's great. I love it. Sorry, I'm like a little brain dead about it, I guess, but I also haven't listened to it in a long time. So I don't like everything is sick. Yeah. But yeah. No, interesting production tidbits. Yes. Is there like a weird? Is there like, did you do this one? It didn't have like, did you just do this one yourself? It didn't have like a producer on listed on Spotify. Yeah, I mostly did it myself, and then I had a friend like help me like, I was like, hey, I'm about to get this mastered. But like, is, I just want to make sure like, I was like, I want it to be like, poppy and loud. So he definitely helped kind of like, introduce more loudness to it in various ways. And then like, you know, like maybe the second chorus like halfway through, he's like, let's layer in like another snare, things like that. So yeah, he definitely like, added a lot in like, tiny, almost invisible ways, but they contribute to the feeling overall. So his name is Bobby Nepper. Then he's based in Nashville. Yeah. I went to school with him and he's like doing like, audio, like professionally now, which is really, really cool. Yeah. And, but yeah, it's all, I don't even know where there was definitely like, so in the box. Yeah. And, and yeah, I didn't really know much about recording at all. But it came from an omni-chord, the drum machine on an omni-chord. There was like this, like that kind of beat. And it's like really small, but I just had that in like a guitar and like a fucked up tuning. And I was just like, like, I just liked playing around the beat and using that as like, this metronomic anchor. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Also like, that is like, I need to make a playlist of this because I have in my brain a bit of like a list of songs where like, you think the one is something else and then suddenly you're like, oh, I was hearing this completely wrong. Like once the drums come in or the vocals or whatever. Yeah. I have loved that stuff too. It's like fun to be surprised and tricked like that way. Exactly. Optical illusion, you know. It's so cool. You guys have like, Illuminati Hotty's has a lot of moments like that. And it might not always be like the start of the song, but like, there's several stuff on past albums where, you know, like at maybe after like, towards the end of the song. And there's like this really like, it just kind of all like breaks down, like deconstructing the whole thing. And like, I don't know, I feel like just to kind of like, push something back to you is just like, I feel like you can like, take apart the very things you've like built so beautifully. And it's such like a, such a like a beautiful way. Like show like new iterations of your ideas. Like it's, I don't know, like permutations, you know. It's so, it's such a, such a cool thing. And then to see like, Illuminati Hotty's like, do that live is so sick. Like when everyone like, knows the parts so well and it's just really tight. And it's like, very fun and surprising as an audience. Yeah. Thanks. So yeah. That's cool. That's a, that's a thing. Yeah. Yeah, but yeah, we should make a playlist of like, surprise. So please be one, surprise downbeat, whatever it is. There's so many great ones. And I just like, even stuff that's like not in, you know, like stuff that's like not, I don't know if it's not even like really trying to be like that or, or it's definitely not in the genre of like, doing weird time stuff. You know, it just happens to be like. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think like, yeah. Like, cause E2ID is like a pretty simple rhythm mostly or at least the main part. But you just don't hear that a lot. Like you don't hear like huge push notes in like music that like has trap hats. I guess maybe it's totally out there, but I, you know, just haven't heard it. Yeah, I think it's surprising. Yeah, I'm sure it's out there. There's that band Magdalena Bay. I don't know a lot of their music, but I know I was like, this record sounds so cool. Yeah, it's like less of a song writing thing for me. Well, I like it in more of just the production you can tell. Like they're coming from, they're bringing like wide, like a dip of various like, influences to it. And there's like this cool juxtaposition of, it's not only like hyper polished pop music, but it's also like got like maybe some metal. Maybe they enjoyed some breakdowns or whatever it is. You know, just like fun rhythmic stuff. Totally, totally, totally. Yeah. Well, yes. Thank you so much for your kindness and I'm sorry. We like, I feel like we didn't get to talk about kickflip that much. So if there's anything really, I feel like we didn't talk about yours. We just talked about other stuff. This was so nice to have today, so thank you so much. 100% thank you. I will talk to you soon. Yes, I'll talk to you soon. All right, bye.