It's beginning to become a tradition. If it's January, maximum lawyer is heading to Scottsdale to Mastermind. January is the perfect time of year to step back, assess where your firm is, and create a strategic plan for growth. This Mastermind is designed to give you a jumpstart to make sure 2025 is your most successful year yet. Our day and a half events combine business training and hot seats. On day one, you'll learn how to use AI and automations to drive growth with the latest tech innovations for law firms, followed by Mastermind hot seats on day two, where you'll receive tailored advice and strategies on what to do next. You'll walk away from this event with an action plan created from personalized solutions that you can implement immediately. To learn more about this event and grab your ticket, head to maxlawevents.com. With your host, Tyson Mutrix. We talk about trading hours for years, even business travel tips. We talk about taking ownership and going out on your own. We end it with being mindful and intentional. It's a really interesting conversation. I hope you enjoyed as much as I did. I hope you get a lot out of it, because it's a really great episode. >> Welcome. >> Thanks. >> You look great. >> Thank you. >> I want to know more about that, because we talked a little bit about it. I want to hear, what are you doing? Because you look fantastic. From the last time I saw you, you dropped 20 pounds and you put on 15 pounds of muscle. >> I think for the first time in my life, I've gone to the gym a lot in the past. For me, I was trying to figure out nutrition, so I think I've had this weird sense of body dysmorphia and the sense of never knowing how poorly I looked when I looked in the mirror at the time to where now looking in the mirror now, maybe not knowing how good I looked today. What I tried to do was- >> Real quick though, before you get to it, I wouldn't explain that more. How poorly you look. >> Whenever I saw you last, six months ago, it was probably about 185 to 190. For somebody my size, when I got measured recently, I'm officially like five, seven and a half. I think I'm slowly shrinking. >> They get that half. >> Yes, I know. >> I'll come with you. >> It's one of those things where at that time, that weight for me is probably not something that really where I should be if it's not just all muscle. But at the time, I'm like, I'm pretty good. So on that size, wearing larges, things like that. And then told myself, though, look, I've done all the different workout programs through most of the online trainers that you can meet or what have you. That stuff I know how to do, I've gone to the gym, I know certain workouts, what have you. Still don't necessarily know the difference between the snatch and the whatever else the flip up. I don't know. >> There's some grab on there. >> There you go. >> But, so I wanted to get serious about nutrition because I've always been told that that's the real switch. So I had a friend of mine that I knew over at the gym, he was a coach there, reached out to him. He's a bit older than me, but his physique is pretty kind of where I wanted to get to. And so I ended up reaching out to him and worked out with him for about 90 days. >> It's interesting to me, because it does seem to me like you are more data driven. So it's just surprising you would not have adopted this sooner. >> Yeah, maybe it's just more like data-ish driven, I think the issue is probably the thing. It sounds, you know, like the numbers, I like the result, so the end thing, but it's the chunk in the middle that gets a little annoying. >> Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. I always think of, because I just make it simple, like with the process goals, prodigal, we're like, Jason's, it's like that, the in between, we do focus a lot on the in, but it's really the most important part is like that, the middle. >> It's the boring stuff day to day, right? Like I think it's just the idea, you want this idea of like what I would call like sexy food, or you want, you know, enjoyable, you know, that umami, you want all of that like as you eat, eating like what is it, a rice cake with peanut butter on it, may not have that same umami of eating like really good sushi or whatever else, right? >> So you talk about the boring stuff, so I want to get into the boring stuff. You're talking about a guy who, tell me more about the boring stuff, because I want to ask you about related to the law firm things, and you're talking about making money the boring way. >> Yeah. >> So tell me what you were talking about there. >> So like, so the boring stuff in regards to like just how to make money? >> Exactly, right. >> Oh, yeah. So just this pod recently though that I'm listening to, so it's a deep dive. So it's Ali Abdullah's deep dive, and he just had a, his name's Andrew Wilkinson. I believe at least in a quick look up on him, he's, he went from being a barista to becoming a billionaire. Obviously he didn't have an overnight through time, and he's talking about the idea too though that like most people think they want to be a billionaire, but like the reality is you don't really want to be a billionaire. He's like, there's a sweet spot of like 20 million, 20 to 30 million, where it's actually a really good spot to be. He goes, but he's like, he goes when you look at it, because he, he acquires businesses. And so we were talking to about like Cody Sanchez who does it. She doesn't buy like the new influencer type sexy business. It's the mom and pop shops. It's the laundromats or the dry cleaners or the parking lots, right? And that's the boring stuff, because the boring things make money. But I think it goes back to the way you were saying though. So like even with in order to get fit or to grow a business, it's the boring stuff that we need each day that I think actually really in the pain of the dividends. >> Interesting. So some are related back to the fitness for a second. Yeah. And I mean, part of the reason why I'm talking so much about the fitness part of it too is it relates so much to what we do practicing law. The fitness being healthy is really, really important. But so 75 hard, we both done 75 hard. I love 75 hard, I think it's great. But it's more on that sexy side. It's not the boring stuff. And I do think that that's a problem for some people because they think I'll do 75 hard and I'm good forever. And that's not the message at all that 80% of all, it's like this is a lifetime thing. And so I wonder, talk about 75 hard versus the other stuff we were talking, the boring stuff. >> So I'm going to talk about 75 hard and then I'll talk about the 12 hour walk as well. Because I think those two things kind of in tandem can work together. I have my thoughts on 75 hard. So I've done it, I've done 75 hard three times, I've completed it once. And so I was listening to Frisella the other day on a pod and he talks, he was asked about like the success, like how people can succeed at it and not, he goes, it's when people say I'm going to try it. So the try of 75 hard, he's like, that's when you fail at it. He's like, it's not something you try, it's just a thing you do for this period. But then whenever I finally completed it, I had a friend who did it and he kind of gave me some tips on success pieces for this program. He goes, you have to be intentional, but you also have to plan for the full time. So I had a plan then where I literally put a post it up on my bathroom to take the picture, the self-picture. And then he's like, you also have to have a conversation too with your close friends and family about this, can you swear on this? >> Yeah. >> It will be a little shit that you're about to do here because it is going to be a life changer for these next 75 days. So a lot of it is getting to that end of completion, right? So then I did it. Now what was crazy for me though, I don't know if it's actually a life. I don't know if I agree with anywhere it becomes this. I think it's a thing you can tap back into because you've done it. But when people are like, yeah, I'm just going to keep doing it now forever and keep drinking a gallon of water every day, carry around my jug, do all this stuff. I personally don't find that that's a thing, I actually ended up stepping back from the gym for a while after that and ended up kind of going not reversed, but not, it didn't, it wasn't so it was like really high up here and then kind of here, not way back down, but you know what I mean? And then kind of, and then got back into the gym again. I needed to find something that could kind of kick me back into it afterwards because it was such an extreme thing. >> So that's interesting. I've heard of the people say that where I think well, some of the lifelong thing too is because Amy now we did, we did five or phases one, two, and three, right? And to us, I feel it was more of like a reset and then the rest of it, it's, it's a reset to, okay, get us back to where we wanted to be. And then you focus on health the rest of the time. So it's not like, and I think that some people do view it as, we do it one time and we're good. And it just doesn't work that way. >> Yeah. And I like the idea of, because I have another friend, he just did it for the third time, but it's, he does it once every couple of years. I even for myself, like we've talked about our affinity for a good bourbon or what have you. >> Yeah. >> I'll do a 30 day. Like throughout the year, I'll do multiple like 30 day pauses. And so I think it's that idea too of being able to show, like have a reset or be able to hit the pause button on something for a bit and then kind of kick it, you know, and then start again. >> Yeah. Let's talk about drinking a little bit. >> Yeah. >> Like what is your view on drinking because you talked about taking the 30 reset and all that. >> Yeah. >> A little bit. >> So I have two parents that are alcoholics, my belief is my dad died from it. You know, some form or another had a huge effect on him, but they were beer drinkers. My dad, whenever I was a kid, was told by my mom, he drank liquor whenever I was younger. Like when I was really little, got really violent. And then basically was told, hey, if you don't stop drinking that, then I'm leaving. And then, and then so yeah, for me, it was, we didn't, I don't know, I'd stop drinking from like 19 to like, I think it was like 30, like mid to late thirties. >> The years when people usually drink? >> Yes, yes. >> Wow. >> Yeah. So members of the Mormon Church didn't drink at all. And then when we left, it took me a little while to get back in. But because of, I don't drink, I don't think since then too, I've had any, I don't drink beer at all, went more of the liquor route. And so for me, the idea of having the ability to pause is both a health piece, but it's also, I, it's a gauge of kind of knowing what runs within the family as well. So to know that I've got some controllables on it. And so that's kind of the way I look at it now. But if we talk about it, I think it's enjoyable. It's, my daughter and I, we talk about it quite a bit in that sense. The taste of it's great. I'd rather at times have a glass of bourbon instead of having like dessert or what have you. It's more enjoyable. I think the way you just frame that's perfectly where a major problem with, especially lawyers, yeah, drinking is like the central part of what you're doing. So let's go have drinks. Right. It's a dumb thing. Right. Instead, you're not going to say, hey, let's go have a dessert, right? But if you view it as like, let's go have dinner, yes, and maybe all the drink is a dirt dessert. I think it's a perfect right. Right. Yeah. Like, where'd you come? Is that something you came up with yourself? No, I mean, I mean, we have massive sweet tooth, right? So I mean, desserts are tasty, but it's one of those things where at the end of the day, I mean, when Megan and I talk about it, we'd rather have, we'd rather go the other route. We'd rather have a drink instead of having a treat. That is the treat. I want to shift gears a little bit. Sure, sure. I mean, can we talk about the partnership? No. Yeah. Yeah, too. Yeah. And I'm sure that there's some limitation. Yeah. But I guess, how are you doing now? Let's talk about that. How are you doing? Because we're going to go back. And I'm not going to do too deep, but I'm going to do one to ask you about it, so how are you doing now? Really well. Actually. A lot better than a few months ago. Yeah. Yeah. How long did it take you to get to that point where you're like, "Okay, I'm good now." So partnership ended at the end of last year, or right literally last day of last year, so probably it's taken about five to six months. And I've had experience with this. Yes. Mine was, I feel like mine may have been a lot easier. Sure. My breakup was eight days. Sure. Eight days. And mine was two weeks. Technically. Okay. Technically. Two weeks. Yes. That's good. That's good. How? Let's go back to when you realized it was, this was going to happen, right? So how did it feel like that? You realized this is going to break up, we spent several years building this thing. Seven. Yeah. And it's going to break out. Right. How was that? Like, what was your mindset like? So what was interesting is we had had back and forth conversations actually about it earlier or mid last year. And so just talks about what happens, you know what I mean? Is it something, you know, is it time for a step away? And just starting a conversation, right? Just in having that dialogue. And it just kind of kept, you know, here and there, a lunches or what have you, just pop up and just talks. And then finally, I think mid-December, beginning of December is when it kind of really started coming into form. And then finally out the, and, or kind of mid-December, whenever we got back from a trip, we had a conversation and me and the partner had a conversation and that was kind of it. So, so I want to say it's like quick speed up on it, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we're going to, we'll get into more of it. Yeah. I'm going to tell you about my experience. Yeah. And I want to, I want to hear what yours was like. So the, during the partnership, the, the whole time I was, I was stressed because I was thinking, okay, I got to make sure that I'm doing everything I need to be doing because I don't want them, him to be worrying about that I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. Like there was just constant stress and then we, we have the conversation that we're going to break up. Mm-hmm. I go for a long walk. Think about it. Great. A drive home. Talk to Amy. We have dinner. It was the best I had felt the entire time of the partnership. I wonder what your, what your experience was like. So it's interesting and like, as I've reflected back, as I think, and this would be for any buddy in any position, I think one of my downfalls and, you know, if I had, if I talked to him today, it's one of the things I'd say is I think I actually faltered in a way to have like wanting to mold my partner into a vision of what I believe the partner should be, which is, it's a naivete on my part, looking back now, having a piece of reflection. And obviously then, which means that no two for all of the, for, you know, a fair chunk of those years to a lot of my internal thoughts and conversations were, you know, about why is like, why this, why that, what have you and the reality is, is he was doing the best he could with what he knew, you know what I mean, in that sense. I never felt because I had shifted more towards the business role and I know a lot of people run that idea of like, if I'm not doing the cases, I feel less than or, you know, that they could look at me as, as not doing my share. I actually view the business side as being such a massively integral part over the day to day lawyering. With that, let's tell that first, just to say it, I agree. There's a perfect model of looking at this, Morgan Morgan, right, the most important part of that business is the business side, not to say that the litigation, you got, they got Keith Mitnick, one of the, which has been asked, who may be, if not, he's not, if he's not the best, he's one of the top five, right, best travelers in the country, right. So there is no probably, there is no Mitnick without Morgan Morgan, maybe I know what you're saying though, but Morgan Morgan Morgan is going to be around no matter what, and I don't mean to diminish Mitnick at all. No, no, but I know what you're saying. He's an amazing lawyer. His brand is far bigger because of working for Morgan Morgan, right, but he's still in May's traveler. Right. So I, I agree with you. I think that travelers in general don't view it that way, the, the, the, and we're, we're travelers. Yes. So, but generally in our profession, it's not viewed that way. Right. And why do you think that is? Cause I think I agree with you on a percent. Well, it's kind of like what we, we were talking about off camera earlier is the idea that the, the badge of honor that we all wear after getting our number in our license is I am a lawyer, right? So from the Clark Kent piece when you wake up in the morning to changing and, you know, putting your S on, it's lawyer. It's not business owner. It's not CEO. It's not entrepreneur. It is lawyer. So I am titled now as a lawyer. The reason that I can own a law firm in most states is because I'm a lawyer. And I think that that's the reason why there's that like thing. So if I take this piece off and I just do X, I'm just like the guy down the street that owns a convenience store, right? He's just a business owner, just a, but I think it's so diff, it's different in that sense too. It just depends on how you want to look at it. Yeah, because you were talking about your friend of yours, how it is almost like, yeah, you're putting on this costume really, but it's more of a costume than anything else. But it is even worse with travelers and I think I think we do, like, you know, it's, it's, we've take that times 10. All right. So we were talking about your partnership. So go back to what you're talking about with that because we were, you were talking about, you know, molding, you're trying to mold your partner, everything, but, and I interrupt to do with that, with that little side conversation. Yeah, so for me it was just this thought piece of like, I think in my head of like my own issues, like of expectation, you know what I mean? And so I put that all on, on me. So then like we had our roles to beat out and everything else. So then he, at the point when I was finally decided, it was pretty quick. It was about two weeks and then, in and out pretty fast. I think most of the, like for me, like, I don't know right away, it, we didn't, like, even when I say we like Gretchen and I didn't have a true like moment of like relief, like you were talking about or what have you in a sense. And not for quite a while, because it was more like we were in crisis, right? Like for, you know, and it's in just, we had to wake up, we had to focus on the business. What are we going to do to get this thing to churn again, to get it to, to move? And so I mean, we had the cases coming in, we had the case load. It's an issue at the back end on the churn rate. And so that, that's kind of really where our focus, we didn't have a lot of time to sit and think about that. We had some other bigger decisions we had to make pretty quickly about payroll and team and things like that. So, so I think it's one of those things for us is we didn't have that. And then the other, the thing to maybe that might have been a little different to is we're friends for a pretty long time. And that's, and I've also, so I've been married to Gretchen for almost 30 years. I've known, I knew Jake for almost 20. And it's like a divorce. I mean, really, like the thing people need to understand is partnerships and I've thought about it a lot lately as like they, it is literally a second marriage. Like if you're going to get into one, you have got to trade it like another marriage. It really is. And so if your current marriage is not that good and strong, I, I pause you against getting into a part. You know what I mean? Like you can't like balance two marriages if, if one is already rocky. Yeah. And so I think it's one of those things like you cannot do it. It just can't happen. That is, that is interesting. And I think you're right. So something I've thought about quite a bit is with the, the breakout with me and Chris. We never had those like really intimate conversations that we should have had. We did a lot of the, who does this and what are we going to call it and all that kind of stuff. No, I, it's funny because it's so funny because Jim and I talked a lot about this. We were like, like, where about the name last, but there was a big, like we did talk a lot about the name is it, you know, his last, my last, that was like, it was such a big deal I think. And it was like, instead of like, that's not important. We should have been talking about, okay, what, like, let's talk about the money more. Like what's your financial situation? What's your financial situation? What happens when, if this happens, what, and we didn't have any of those conversations. Yeah, and I, I think it's one of those things too of really trying to get the vision to align. So I had those conversations helped it like the joint vision to ultimately come in a line. And I think that's, I agree with you. I think it's one of the areas where I like, or we, you know, together probably cumulatively failed to not fully get it aligned in that sense of like really like what do we, what do you know what I mean? It's that question of like, what do you want? And where you hit it over and over and over again is like, really, what do we really, really want out of this? What do we really want it to look like? What do you, you know what I mean? In all of those things. So what, at what point? So that you had, yours was seven years, mine was 18 months or so completely different. The, but seven years at what point though, did you realize that, that your paths were not aligned? I think it was probably after potentially I would say maybe after, after my partner stopped taking cases, I think, because he struggled with an identity shift of being an attorney to now going, of being a managing partner who doesn't have cases and it's just overseen. I think it was a thing where he didn't, you know, and it's, these were conversations that we would have all the time of like, I don't know what to do. Is this right? You know, and he both enjoyed it, I think, and didn't. I don't, at this point, I don't know. But I would say that that may have been one of the, the bigger struggles. I wonder, and you don't go to specifics. I don't, I don't need, I don't know, but I do wonder, did you all, when you kind of realized, and he was probably realizing at the same time, I mean, did you all ever have those like deep conversations about what you're, like, what needs to change to kind of get you back on track? Probably not then. And it's an interesting thing as I was listening to this thing at the gym the other day where this, I think it was, you know, I, it might have been it both, but I'll just from speaking for myself, my inability to actually just speak up at the time, right? Because there's always a fee, you know, I, I think most people think that lawyers just want to have conflict all the damn time. I think conflict. I think it's unnecessary. And it's just stupid. And so my kids say I have this like innate inability to just like walk away from shit and just get away, you know, I think there's an amazing ability by the way. But it's this idea of, this thing I was listening to where he talks about truth, he's like, so here's the thing. We all think in our head. We have this. So like you and I, I know I've got to have a hard conversation with you. So in my head, what do I do? I predict the outcome of how you're going to react. And then I pattern now what I'm going to say to you based on what I believe that outcome is going in my head, what it's going to be. He's like, you're wrong. So instead do this, say what you need to say, so say the truth first of what you believe or what you want to talk about, then just let that outcome be what it is. And so if you can do that, which is, again, that takes a lot of, you know, your own self-break, but it takes you getting out of your own head and kind of moving forward that way. I don't know how it's possible to ignore what you think the outcome is going to be. But it's a world of what is, right? Because no matter what predictive analysis you run, odds are you're wrong. Think about it like any time that you've gone to like terminate somebody. You already have in your head how it's going to go down. Has it, most times, it generally doesn't go as bad as what you're thinking. Now, every now and then there's the outliers, but most of the time you're like, it wasn't that bad. I've had twice where it was significantly worse than I thought it was going to be, but it's still going to fit within that mold up where you were at, right? And so, but it's just those kinds of things where, and I've had that too, but it's like overall is like we can't, no matter what, you can't predict it. Yeah. So why not just say it and live with it and go with the other end? I don't know if you had this, but I've had these, I think with cases and other things, like with cases specifically, I kind of hold off, I've got this thing that is issue with the case and I'm stressing about it for months or weeks maybe. And then I talked to whoever I need to talk to about it, whether it's client or the opposing attorney, whatever. And then I can't tell you how many times it's like, there was nothing, there was nothing to worry about at all. It's amazing how many times we have things like that in our lives that we just just do the thing what we need to do. Right. So everybody ended off and just do it. There is one thing within the whole partnership piece, and I think it can go this way with your partner, with anybody within your firm that may be up at a higher level or what have you. And it's a thing I ended up reading the other day where it was this idea of blame. And there's the three levels of blame. And it's, I think it's important because this, I've thought about it a lot since I read it, and it's this idea of, you can still phase one as the lowest level as you blame the other person. Everything's their fault. Everything that went wrong, all of the issues, their fault. Phase two, blame yourself. As the leader, and it's the thing I took on immediate, everything bad that has happened to the firm, to the business, all of it, it's all my fault, I'm the leader. Because anything good that happens within the business, the team did it all, right? Everything good happened because of the team, everything bad happened because of me. But then phase three is actually, to me, is this great area, you blame no one. It's almost false. It just is. And it's brilliant because it's just a thing that happened. And people move on, and it's okay. And so it's like this other like odd level of enlightenment where you're just like, it's just a thing that happened. So now the business is still going, and it's okay. How long did it take you to get to that point? Because that's-- Oh, I read it in about two minutes. No. But that's-- But that's it. And I'm still, I think I'm getting there. So it takes work, but it takes a lot of time to go and just say, it's okay. And I think the sooner that you can do that and let go of blame of the other, blame of yourself, then I think you move to a better spot. I think it's a really, really important lesson. I mean, I'll be honest with you. I think my initial response, and this maybe is just like human nature, is just like, who's it fault? Absolutely. I am good at backing it off and saying, okay, how am I at fault for this? Which is probably not right either. That is a different level. It's just a different way of thinking completely that it's tough, but I do like that. But let me ask you this. I do sometimes maybe think that some people would take that to never hold someone accountable, which is something different. Yeah, I mean, I think within this all, right, is like we've had to-- I think you have to go through those kind of that cycle, too, because there's lessons within each of those going, okay, well, what could I have done differently? What things can I learn? How would I react going forward? What kind of, you know what I mean? How would I push? What things would I have done differently? And there's a growth pattern. I mean, it's that idea of, like you ever have those friends that get divorced and then right after they get divorced, like now they've become like, you know, prior to that, they were just like gamers who sat around and ate potato chips. But then right after the divorce, now they're entering fitness competitions and shit. Yeah. People like rebranded version of themselves now on who they are post-divorce. And so it's almost like that, too, as you-- there's these things that you now kind of learn about yourself as you're going through those questions that you have to rebrand a little bit and things that you learn about yourself. Yeah, I've always learned that with those people. Are they-- some of them may be like, okay, I'm going to show you, I'm better than you. Yeah. But part of it, I wonder if like, are those things that you should have been doing during the marriage to-- or it could-- one or two things. Maybe you could have been doing that during the marriage and you wouldn't have a divorce. Yes. Or are those things that you didn't do because of the marriage? It's interesting. Yeah. But because marriage is an important part of this, you talk about like, it's like, if you have a bad marriage, you shouldn't get into a partnership. That's an important piece of this. Yeah. So like, there are certain things you should do during the marriage to keep the marriage together. Same thing with the partnership. Like, there's certain things during the partnership you should do to keep the partnership together. Yes. So is there anything like that with your partnership that you look back and you're like, I should have been doing these things for the benefit of the partnership? I think it's those-- honestly, to me, the first thing is those open conversations. Really open and deeper. I mean, obviously we knew each other really well, but not well enough. And then it's-- I think it's having-- I think if you-- when you do these things from the jump, what did Gretchen's contract professor said? There's no such thing as a contract that's too short or that's not long enough. So our contracts were way too short. We never had enough stuff spelled out. So the rainy day clauses or the alien abduction clauses or whatever else it may be, right? You think of all that whack of doodle shit and you're just like, why didn't we have that in there? Why didn't we have this? Right? Because so it's just like, hey, we're too buddies. Let's go ahead and do this thing. And life's just going to be awesome. Well, I think you still have to plan for that stuff because you have to have some really honest conversations from that at the jump going, if this doesn't work, where's that clause on if this doesn't work, what does this look like? I think you're not thinking of it in a spot at the get-go because it's everything sunny days and everything's fun and nice. So there-- you talked about how you knew over 20 years. There's knowing somebody and there's knowing somebody. And were there signs early on that you maybe-- yeah, you knew him, but yeah, maybe this isn't a good idea for a partnership. So I call this the-- it's the dot tree effect. OK. So you know, dot tree, the singer from American Idol. I was going to ask you what the hell you're talking about. Yeah, so Chris dot tree. I know who that is. I couldn't tell you anything else about it. So we watched one season-- I think that was the only season of Idol that we ever watched way back in the day. So dot tree's a country singer, I think. It's a rock and roller, or I don't know whoever, right? That gets given you the no, not a country, but he's a rock and roll guy. He's a rock and roll guy. And so the thing we loved, like when we first saw dot tree, comes out, gives us a little like two-minute spiel on his family and stuff like that, you know, a guy working it up the route and good, good, you good dude. And goes out, sings a great song. They love him. He gets through. And then what we end up though is this idea of the dot tree effect, which it starts and it's just like we know. So there we're like we know them, but we don't really know them. And then it's like now the vignettes get a little longer, now it's like five minutes of like his sob story, whatever it may be, right, made for TV. But it's just like how much do I really want to know dot tree versus just listen to his music and just kind of kind of know him a little bit, you know what I mean, in that sense. And so I think it's like that idea of like how much do you actually really, really know somebody. I mean, what I've realized even from all of this is like there's probably only three people in my life that I really like really know and it's my wife and my two girls. That's it. Yeah. Even my brothers. Fuck man, I don't know. Maybe, you know, I mean, we talk a lot, we see each other here and there, but we really know each other that deeply, I don't know. And so, yeah, so that is interesting. I was watching, I think Joe Rogan had somebody on in the last few months and they were talking about that. If you can expand that that because there's like different layers to it, right, where you've got like this, this internal circle that knows, that knows you. And then there's a circle outside of that, like your immediate family, I guess extended family and all that. That's kind of like in that circle. Yeah, they know you, but they don't know you know you. And then like outside of that is people, yeah, I know Chris, you know, there's probably another circle right outside of that, but there are these levels of knowing people that are important. And if you can expand that inner circle, it does lead to more happiness. Interesting. That's interesting because I've had this thought lately too, where it's this idea of like friends, right, because we've all got it's like the thing from Fight Club, I feel like in life these days, right, where we all have single serving friends. And so it's the idea of like, so as, but then I see and I look around and I've got like these, you know, like, you know, as I see through the community or what have you people that they happen to go play pickleball with or they do this other stuff with or what have you in it. And so I'm like, is it a thing? So I've told myself lately, I'm like, I want to be more intentional about finding friends than it feels like middle school again, where I'm just trying to be that awkward kid who tries to go butt into it. And then, but during the 12 hour walk, one of the interesting things I thought about was maybe I actually don't need it, maybe I'm actually good because maybe that may, and not that that circle should stay tight forever that way, but with what I've got, it's pretty good. So why not just enjoy the friendships and actually foster maybe that other level here more than what, and to make it to expand out, you know what I mean? Yeah. Then instead of trying to just be like, you know, like Oprah giving away cars instead of you get a friend, you get a friend, you get a friend type of a thing. So I don't know. I would say this, I would agree with that approach more than the single serving friend type. Yeah. I never thought about that way, but it is amazing how like you do sometimes have these like deep friendships, at least I do. Yeah. I'm assuming other people do, but you don't, your experience with that person is very limited. Yeah. And I'll just use, I don't, I'm just going to make this one up, but like, so for a jujitsu for me, I'm not, I'm not able to do it in acts, I got shoulder injury, but that, like I could see where like, I've got like really deep friendships only in the jujitsu community, but they don't, they don't know the name of my kids and why if things like that, which I think those are kind of like pre prerequisites of actually hiring someone. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But I think that with what you're talking about, I think that that's right. If you were to, so instead of having all these spread out, which I think are important. Sure. That circle and focusing on you, I think that probably would, I think you're onto something. I think that that probably would lead to, to more happiness. Well, and I also don't you think too though, it's the idea that if you're actually okay here internally, then maybe you don't need this, you're actually okay with this. If you're okay with you, and so pretty okay with the way I am, well you, the, the, all the, the, those circles, yeah, we're all negatively affected if you're not okay with you. Right. Right. Yeah. I want to shift gears a little bit on April 19th of 2013, you said, I am a victim of my own decisions, hashtag choices. Go back to that time, if you can remember what, what were you, what, what were you thinking? What was that about? I feel like I should be eating hot wings right now, but I have no clue. So I have a really, I have a good memory in some areas about any others. I would, so that time in my life, I'm getting ready to graduate law school. So I'm a three L almost done. So yes, it's 2013. 2013. So yeah, I finished then. It's either, and what was the quote again? I'm a victim of, I, I am a victim of my own decisions. Well, I could have been that too. I could have just been what the fuck am I doing at law school here again, and it, it's just one of those pieces there would be my thought it's either a movie quote or it's something where I was actually just really like, what am I doing? So April, it was April, so when you, almost ready to, almost ready to graduate. Yes, your approach and graduation. Yeah. Get ready for bar. Job prospects at the time, anything? Yes. I worked at a small law firm up in Woodland Park, which is a small mountain town for a family law attorney, and so knew that I was going to have more than likely end up going to do family law with him right after. What was it, what was it like working for a smaller firm? It's all I've ever done. And then everything was, I mean, you're tight in with the, the, the boss and highs and lows of any sort of like, I mean, when all lawyers go through like how to, you know, like employee etiquette training and how to manage a law firm, everyone went through that, I believe, which is total BS. It's, you know what I mean? There's this total thing where it's like they, it was good. I mean, for me, at least it did exactly what I was looking for at the time. And I, I still today, I like, he's a judge now, I actually respect him quite a bit. I thought he was really good. It is interesting about like small town attorneys. Many of them just want to be judges, which, yeah, I have no, I don't know about you. Any desire ever? None. I mean, either. None. Amy is aunt and uncle. They bought me a gavel. I think it was right after law school or in law school. And they're like, you can have it when you become a judge, I'll never become a judge. Yeah, I think it's isolating the pay to me as limited time that it takes away. I mean, we've talked in the past about time and I just didn't, I don't want anything that to me. I don't want anything taken that away. So I, I'm talking in the past about retirement time, you're, you're trading, trading hours for years. And it's an interesting concept where you're so stuck in the day to day that you end up losing years, and so you're in accomplishing nothing. Yeah. So I wonder what your thoughts are on that on hours for years. Yeah, like I don't, I guess I look at the way I looked at time lately has been this idea of I'm at a spot in my life and even with every, with all the change and flux in the firm and everything else. I'm probably there more now than I was in the past, but in reality, if I needed to, I could probably work 15 to 20 hours a week and make a really good, a really good wage. Sure. But it's the time back that I have, where I can do basically what, what ever I want. If that's to start a coaching business or if it's to go out to dinner with my wife or go grab lunch with her or to go do a marketing thing or to go see my kid up in Denver, you know what I mean? What have you? And I think it's, when you talk about hours for years, while the reality there is, is I can't get back that time to go have lunch with my kid in Denver. Sure. You know what I mean? Or go meet another attorney, I have an attorney friend up in Denver or we'll go grab lunch here and there or what have you. And so it's those kinds of things where to have that flexibility. And so it's even my kids, they were talking to me the one day and just saying, if everything with Springs Logger went awry tomorrow and I had, and it just closed, they're like, they looked at me and they're like, you'd be the worst employee ever. And it's, they're like, it's not because you'd be an asshole. It's just because you know, like you want to be good at it because you know too much. You've, it's Oz, right? You pulled the curtain and you now know what Oz looks like so you'd be terrible at it. And so it's that kind of an idea too. Yeah. So you were talking about like, you know, going to see your daughter in Denver or whatever, but the, it is interesting because that, that, those are the choices we have every day, right? So you could, you could, you know, spend a couple hours and go see your daughter. You could spend a couple hours checking email or you could do, you know, spend a couple hours building something that's going to make your firm better. Yeah. And most people spend the two hours checking email. Yeah. And that's that, that concept of trading hours for years where next thing you know, you know, 10 years go by and you don't know, you don't know where that went. Right. And I think it's the, I, well, I mean, I, for everybody and you guys have talked about this too on the show is get a person who can check your email or program. Yeah. I mean, really. I mean, we, I mentioned Martell a lot, but his first thing is you hire an executive assistant right off the job, you get them to check your email and then get people to, to, so the 1080 10 rule, get people, you come up with the idea of this system that you want, you're this new thing to make your firm better. Get somebody to do the 80%. So then you can go have that thing and then you come back in at the end and check it. Yeah. The volume, the volume of email that, that an attorney gets these days is, is quite overwhelming. I mean, if you, I'm assuming my emails, like your email, I mean, it is, it's, it's, it's worse than phone calls. Yeah. So you, you have a receptionist. And I've heard people talk about this. They treat email like a receptionist and I think that's an interesting concept. I, I email is a little more, more personal because it's, it's not like a receptionist because it's not like the receptionist is listening in on your phone calls. Right. It is different in that. Yeah. I mean, transaction, things like that that, you know, come through, it's so, it, it, it is different, but it is such an overwhelming thing. No, it just, I don't know how it's sustainable. I really don't. Right. Like, I think it's one thing, like things like that that are such a stressor on the profession that we, we got to find a solution. Yeah. One of them is an executive system. I think so. I mean, so mine, she's a, she's our office admin, but also takes care of my email. We meet once a week. She, we've set up certain folders and she's set up certain automations for other things that can kind of go through. I think you've just, you have to be intentional about it. Yeah. And then she'll literally sit, when we sit down, we'll, we'll walk through all of them. And it's quick. I mean, it's, and then we go through other stuff too, throughout, that, you know, that needs to happen. But she takes care of all my travel. She booked all of this. I didn't touch any of it. She, you know what I mean? Everything else. Like she handles all that. And so like one of our credit cards just got hacked. She takes care of all implementing all the new cards, every, all that other stuff. So she's vital. Do you give her guidelines on travel? I do. Yeah. Very specific. What are they on here? So because Denver is a United hub, it's a, so we fly United out of Denver and Lesus. So in the springs, we have a small airport. If I'm going to Phoenix or to Vegas, I'll fly out through the springs through Southwest outside of that. It's United through Denver. I do not do connections. So it's one way, if I can, I seat to a row two only. So I fly first. Row two only. If I can't. I don't want one. I think one side. Row one's the worst. Row one's the worst because you got to put your shit up. One is the worst in sitting a coach. I think it is. And so I'm just like, at this point I fly first, so two or three, but I prefer two. If I'm with Gretchen, Gretchen gets the window seat, I get the aisle. If I'm not with Gretchen, I'll take the window. And then that's generally it there. I went through national and she's got my membership on that. That's pretty kind of the gist on it. She knows all of it. That's good. All right. So let's shift gears a little bit. You were a teacher and if you were to go back and if you could become a teacher again, I wonder how you would change the projection of the way things have gone, if you would at all. So man, so my teaching experience did not end the way I thought it would and so I would not change it though. Because it ended abruptly. It did end. Yeah, it ended abruptly. If both Gretchen and I were non-renewed in the same year, we had just bought a house. And so we're like, what do we do? And then the thought was like, it's going to law school, which made no sense. But the interesting thing now is looking at it and I think it's the conversation I had with Chuck Boyd years ago where he's like, sometimes the thing, he said to me, he's like, sometimes the thing, the thing that you think is the worst thing that happened to you ends up being the best thing. And I mean, in retrospect, in the moment, it was this terrible. But today, I needed that. I'm so glad I'm actually not a teacher anymore because of the lifestyle that I have. I am in business to create a lifestyle that I want. That is it. I'm happy that we can help people, I'm happy that we provide a service. And I'm really happy for the team that we have that we can do that for them too. But overall, it's to provide a lifestyle. And there are certain things like row two that I want, you know what I mean, or what have you. And I'm okay saying that. But as a teacher, there's no way I'm probably able to sit and row two. Would you be a lawyer today if you were renewed on your contract as a teacher? Oh, that's interesting. Probably not. Yeah. It's an interesting thing. I don't know if I could have seen it. Yeah. At the time. Because I think Chuck's right, the thing about that, like how that thing that you thought was the worst thing that could have happened to you or close to one of the worst, it ended up being the best thing. Dude, Tyson. So the crazy thing is, like, I was in, like, I was like watching Ron Clark. I was reading a Ray Fesk with, who's this teacher down in San Diego, like, all these guys where it's like, you can make a difference in, like, I was jazz. So like the same way, like, I listened to all this business shit now, I was doing it with teacher stuff back then. And I'm just like, this is the thing, right? We can have an impact on kids. We're going to be, you know, create all these lifelong learners and everything's going to be amazing. But yeah, now that we're just all just on YouTube and playing roadblocks. So I don't know. What's really interesting is what I think you'd be an amazing teacher. But I saw you light up more talking about that than I've seen you light up about anything else we talked about. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. I mean, I think it's the idea of, like, how in on something, right, like, because, like, if we talk about, like, growing the business, right, it's the same type of thing, right? Yeah, I can get, like, jacked about, like, here's this new, you know, idea or here's how we can do X or Y. It's the same thing. Here I've got control over it, there somebody else had control over it. So the reason I'm happy to be an attorney, because part of the reason, though, too, that law school became the thing is it's the one, so they can take away my ability to teach because it's reliant on somebody else. They can't ever take away my bar. I mean, they could, but, you know, I mean, I got to do some stupid shit. But like, they can't take away and my ability to own the firm. And so that's all on me. There's a lot of controllables on that that I've got there. So that I really like. It's a good point, especially. Being an employee in general, like, that's your absolute right. Yeah. So you're talking about you'd be a terrible employee, I mean, I think most law firm owners would care. I like to think I'd be a good employee, but I would be compliant, you know, in that sense. I think I could be a good employee, but I'd probably be miserable. I think you'd be terrible. Yeah. Yeah. I'd like, they don't want me showing up whenever I want to show up. Right. No. I mean, like, here's the thing. Like an employee, like, a business owner, like, they would love me. Right. Right. But you may not because you're buying them when it be theirs. Right. Exactly. All right. So I want to ask you about something else that you posted on July 5th of this year. Oh. So just just recently. Sure. Your grades do not define you. Exclamation point. So your grades do not define you. I was a C student in law school. I failed the bar exam. But today I run a seven figure law firm and have a team that is helping build each day. I agree with those things. What compelled you to make that post? So I was, I think you have that off X. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I very rarely post on X and trying to, trying to get, I watched, I watched this course on posting on X. But what compelled me to post that is this idea too, though, that I think, so we're big fans of Survivor at my house and Survivor is a closed world, right? I play a lot of Fortnite, Fortnite's a closed world. I think school generally, you know, if it's high school, undergrad, law school, medical school, it would have you. It's a closed world. And we've talked about this idea of what do people do that don't know what they want to do with their lives. They go back to school to get more, more schooling. Why? Because it's a safe closed world. But watching, and I think at the time too, I'm watching Gretchen kind of go through this like the hierarchy, right? She has, you know, friends who will text her and be like, hey grades are in. What are we doing? And then Gretchen's like, I don't care, you know, I've already got X, but there's a little part of her that does care because she wants to achieve and do well for herself. But it's that passing, you know, kind of thing of like the one-upsmanship within the, you know, the law student world. And so remember like in law school too, I don't know if they did this at years too, I was that idea of like, look to the left, look to the right, only one of you will be here at the end, which is bullshit because it's a place that wants to make money. So they're going to keep everybody in. So I was after Toledo, after my first year, I was actually in my first semester at Denver, I was put on academic probation because I had gotten some Cs. And so I had to do this like extra bullshit course and then did that and went through it and what have you. The reality is, is I'm like, I couldn't, at the time, I was like, I need to go via DA, I need to go via a public defender or what have you, I couldn't get into either of them. And then ended up doing the family law thing, but none of it shifted truly until I took ownership of it all and just went out on my own. And so I went out on my own with just three family law clients and had my own firm and whatever I first started. And it was just me and built it up to about 20 to 25 and then formed up. But I'm like, it's not the great, like it isn't the great, it's like who, when is the last time that you've interviewed somebody or you've asked them what their law school grades were? Never. Never. Right? I could care less period about any of it. But in that moment, the reason I posted it is like, it's such a, it's such a, you know, mind fuck that it just like it really screws with you on like, if I don't do X, I'm not going to get into big law. Who truly wants to work big law? You think you do. So it's this idea lately that I've had about the reality versus the, or the idea versus the reality, right? The idea. I want a big law. I need the grades. I need this status, all these things. The idea of it sounds great. The reality, yeah, me idea, I want to, I want to learn to play the mandolin. I love it. Reality. I can't read music. I've never played an instrument. And whenever I sat through my first few lessons, I'm like, fuck, I'm terrible at it. And it's going to take me forever. So I want to, I'm a person, I want results pretty quickly. And so it's like, yeah, so now I've got a mandolin sitting in my office that just sits there. It's a nice job. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. How would you change law school? I make the, I've seen things lately where it's like a two year program with a practicum or like a residency. I think it needs a residency component of some form period that where you get credit for like a long term, like the last year, if you're going to keep it three, make two years actual classes. I'm watching what Gretchen's doing. I know. I have many, I know that I had many of them, I'm sure you did too. Classes that are just BS, they have no practical ability at all. Like it's rock and roll law or what, like what, because I think you're paying way too much money for something that is way too important to not have any practicality for potential practice or potential bar exam. Because the struggle with it too is if you just get your JD, none of it matters. I mean, I don't know what kind of jobs, and I'm sure people are getting jobs out there with just a JD, but it's the bar. It is the bar period that is it. And what was fascinating to me too, is one ally struggled on, you know, certain classes or what have you. Like I remember taking, I took CIB Pro from a professor first, and I, I didn't learn hardly anything. He just, a lot of pontification, a lot of verbose. Eerie doctrine. Yeah. Didn't learn anything. But then you take the Barbary study, and I'm like, why wasn't this taught here, way back here this way? And so why not just teach the Barbary courses to as the class, every time in the beginning? Yeah. Because if this is the thing we're studying for at the end, so it's kind of like, I was just at a trial training, and they were talking about when they start up a case for litigation, the first thing they do is they get like date, like as they're drafting the complaint and doing the case review, they draft their jury instructions right then. They're like, and here's why, because if we don't know the end, which now with law school we do, right, the bar, why wouldn't we start like getting to that right at the beginning? So now if we know our jury instructions and what we're looking for, everything we're doing is geared towards that thing at the end. And so why not do that? I agree with that to a certain extent. Right. I do, I do worry there's a risk with that that maybe you would, you would have tunnel vision and because there's other claims out there several times you've seen this where you have a case where you think it's one thing and you add a ton of value and these other things. So as long as you have contingencies to account for that, I would agree with that model. We don't do it that way, but I understand. And that's something that I have told our younger attorneys, like you need to be thinking about the MAI. So we don't draft them, but we need to be thinking that our MAIs are jury instructions. So you need to be thinking about what those look like at the beginning of the case because it does help you formulate it. Right. And just flat out drafting them because what happens is, I don't know if you've seen this. Sometimes if you, it could be something as simple as that. So let's go with that idea. Your staff follows the guidance of the attorney and the lead of the attorney. They might just look at the MAIs and think and not see anything else outside these other outlier pieces. Yeah. So I think that's a concern. So you're talking about, I'm interviewing witnesses, interviewing the client. I'm not thinking about anything else because I've got those jury instructions. Right, right. So I think that that's a concern, but I mean, he's a very smart person. So he's probably got contingencies for that. Yeah. Let's go. This is the last thing we'll talk about. It's mindset. And we've talked about some of the mindset stuff. I do like your mindset on things. It is not about thinking positive thoughts and being happy mindset takes work and intentionality. You have to make a choice and take action. So talk about that. So within all the, like the changes and transitions that have happened this year, like we were talking about earlier, the partnership changes, the, I've had employee changes and things like that. I was actually talking to Kelsey one day on a call and he's like, I have, he's like, dude, he's like, you have this innate ability that I, he talks to a lot of other attorneys and he's like, I don't see it in a lot of them where you pivot and move a lot faster than most people, instead of kind of like sitting down in the muck and mire right of all of it. And I do think there's a moment where you need to sit and feel it, but then you got it. You've got to move. And so for me, it's just one of those things of like, I look at it as like, what else are you going to do? You know, am I going to, I don't have enough time to have like a pity party for Chris or do whatever else? And if I did, like I don't know what purpose it's serving. And so I consider myself a pretty, I mean, I'm an eternal optimist. I talked to Joey a little while back about the idea of unrealistic optimism. It's this whole like her mosey. Have you seen the Hermose S curve? No, but I want to hear, I want to hear more about the unrealistic optimism. I know what you're talking about. But it can, so it's this idea, I think for the longest time that's kind of where I was hitting. It's shiny object. It's everything's great. You know what I mean? Because it's this thing too of like, if you know, the secret or other things like, if I will it, what, I think a lot of that in the universe and everything else can be really, really helpful. But all of that stuff has to be in conjunction with action. And so that's where it takes intentionality and true work to actually, instead of me in my mindset just going, hey, you know, everything's just going to be great, well, I've got to do those things too to help make everything be great, right? We have to take action. We have to pivot. We have to move. We have to go. So that's what shifted me from unrealistic optimism to kind of further down the S curve, which I can walk through. It's a lot like the mood follows action, like the ritual stuff, like mood follows action or yeah. Oh, yeah. Mood follows action. So you do have to do those things. It is important to have that positive mindset because if you've got that negative mindset, it can be really damaging. Absolutely. So if you're with that unreal of skepticism, there is a lot of people that you know, they're always happy about. They, or at least they project happiness. Sure. I don't know if they're necessarily happy, but they can't figure out why they can't get anything. They can't achieve anything. Right. It's because they're not doing anything. Right. And that's why I like about your post is I disagree with, you know, mindset is not about thinking positive thoughts. I think it's both. But the most important component of that, I think that's what you're getting at is taking the action. Yeah. Because I think people just think that if I think positive thoughts, everything will work out. And it's not true. Yeah. I don't. You can't just will it like an you have, there's a, there's that extra component you need with it. Cool. And what point did you, did you learn that the, I can't assume you had it. No, no. I think it's, I think it's just through, I think it's for years of failing, honestly, like just messing up and, you know, falling down. And then finally, you know, like get a little bit of momentum, right? You get a win. And then you're like, okay, this can work. And then okay, this can work. But I think if through the years, if I had it, cause dude, there were, I mean, within my over five pages of jobs that I had on the bar application, like years of just going, why does every other person have this whole thing figured out? They all know what they want to be, but I can't figure this stuff out. And so it's this idea of, I had a good friend. He's an anesthesiologist. And I'm like, how the hell did he know at 18, he wanted to be an anesthesiologist? I didn't even know what that was at 18. And yet it's because, you know, having parents or certain that circle, right, of like, and knowing people who liked that, I didn't have that. And so it's just like, you try this, and a lot of it for us early on was just survival. But then it's like, you do this and fail, do this and fail, do this and fail. And it's like, then at some point it finally clicks because you just try so many times that something just hits. You mentioned failure. So I, I do want to talk about that. Did you, did you view your partnership as a failure? No. Even today, I don't. There's things that, no, I don't, I mean, I think there's things, again, like I said, that I wish I would have said earlier on, but no, I don't feel like that was a failure. So we each put, like right, if I remember right, right around three grand in, where we've been a seven figure company for the last four, four or five years. We consistently, I mean, we have a team of about 16. And so no, no, it's not a failure. So what I want to do is I like the way you were, you view that. So let's focus on the success of that. And I, in my opinion, your best years are ahead of you. You're doing awesome things. When you look at that partnership, like what are the, what are the things you're the most proud of? So within the partnership, so I'll look at it. Can I look at it both the partnership and the business? Absolutely. In the partnership, it was the experiences that we had together. It was the ability for him and I, you know, him and I, you know, the me take aggression to all go to like certain events to go through. We went to a really interesting, like emotional intelligence retreat. We've done, you know, trips together, the masterminds, the fishers, things like that. Like those pieces are pockets of memories that I have that were huge successes and that I look at as like, I'm a big fan of like the experiences in life because those are that, you know, I like stuff, but like at the end of the day, those, it's the experiences that those are the way I want. That's the way I want to look back on it. You know, if it's doing a retreat with Melissa, a velocity worker, what have you like doing those kinds of things is the way I look at it as huge successes. We'll bet the business. The business, honestly, for me, the biggest success is actually being an attorney who owns a law firm who has been able to fully transition out of having a case of, I haven't had a case in over two and a half years and I love it. I think it's possible. I think anybody can do it if you want it and I don't, I don't have the hang ups though of not having cases. I think if you have that, don't do it. If you want to do cases, do it. But for me, that's a huge success because I, I really enjoy, I enjoy it. I treat, so when people say like, I feel lost without cases or clients, treat your team like that. Your team's your clients. Like, what are you going to do for them to help make it better? And so that's a huge success for me is like, I consider myself a huge, so I'm an older. Well, I just turned 49. So like, I, I consider myself a John Stockton of the firm now, right? So just how can I assist? What can I do to help? What tool can I get you? You know, what information can I get you? But everybody else does this stuff. And how can I watch that kind of thing just move and turn? And so, yeah, that's kind of been the stuff that, that's the way I find it to be successful. Thanks, Chris. Yeah. Thanks, man. [MUSIC] [MUSIC] (upbeat music) [ Silence ]
