I think it's really important when you think about yourself in a relationship as one, when you typically speak honestly, is it to get at that person or your partner? And secondly, when you do get feedback from your partner, what is your typical response? I know you want me to be honest, but you even said on top of that, that that's just who I am. I use stuff from the past. I bring things up from the past, so then I'm like, well, then I don't want to say it. I felt exactly the same way. I don't want you to internalize something that would hurt your feelings, especially on some of the sensitive topic, as well as be used against me. Are you doing this? It's going to make you feel good? Or are you doing it because you think you're going to be impactful for that other person? Welcome back to over dinner. I'm Jared. And I'm Dr. Nikki. We're not experts. We're just two people doing the work together and apart. Sharing real and unfiltered conversations about the human experience. You know what I just noticed? What? Look at the different colors of our coffees. Yeah. I don't put anything in mind. Yes, you do sometimes. Sometimes you put tumor or some little bit of superior life shape, give old chocolateness. Yeah, protein. Protein. Yeah. I don't really drink coffee anymore. It kind of just went cold turkey on it. I was like, such a habit to just stop for somebody with Hashimoto's. It's better to avoid caffeine and coffee. So I've been really trying to make a genuine effort there because in other areas, I feel like it's totally slipped like gluten-free and actually I'm really curious what you think. Do you feel like I try to be mindful of being gluten-free or do you feel like I don't really try that hard? I think you have moments of it. Is that your honest answer? It's honest. Yeah. I think there's moments where you're more aware and there's some time, but I also think in certain circumstances, it's okay not to think about it, like it ought to be perfect. Yeah. Right? There's always more you can do, it's always perfect, but I don't think that's if that's every goal, then you're going to fail every time. Yeah. So I think there's moments where you're like, I need to be more on this and you are. And then sometimes it just slips or there's family time or it's holidays and all these things where it's like, you're going to be as good as you can, but you also don't want to like not have the experience. I mean, it'd be different if I like had a celiac disease, right? Yeah. So you're just thinking about honesty and relationships as you were talking and like, what is that line, right? Because this is supposed to be your closest relationship that you have. And so at least in my perception, it is the closest relationship that you have. And the other day I was watching Firefly Lane, I don't know if you've ever seen the whole thing, but in the series, it's a two series show on Netflix, Kate and her husband, Johnny, they go through a divorce. And when they after they rekindle, what is the reconcile? Is that reconcile? Reconcile. Once they reconcile, they have this moment where they are talking about why their marriage didn't work. And part of it was that they weren't honest with each other about certain things. Like Johnny had aspirations of doing some like real work journalism, like going to Iraq and like doing some things and he didn't tell Kate about his frustrations of kind of going through the day to day. And so in this exact scene, they talk, they go back and forth and talking about all these things that are really honest. Like, I hate your meatloaf, I hate this thing. I don't want to spend time with your mother kind of things like they talk about being that radical honesty. And I'm curious, I'm really curious to explore what honesty means because we also had a conversation about this just recently, about honesty. That's about in therapy too. Yeah. It's just like, what is the line? What is the value? Are there some things that you shouldn't be sharing? Should you be sharing everything? So I'm curious. I'm curious on our each perceptions of it because I think it's probably different. Okay. Right. So why don't you first? I think it's evolved. I don't think you have to share everything in anything. If it's not beneficial to the other person or to the relationship. So I'm curious. I'm just like digging into this because I'm not debating. I want to. I'm curious. So like, there have been times in my career when you know that I was just in my own way. Yes. And I would like complain about things or I'd be frustrated or emotional or whatever it is about specific instances. And you weren't quote unquote honest and you've later told me that you would, you have been more honest where you'd saying like, you're in your own way or like this is the way it goes, but you didn't want to say those things because you didn't want to hurt my feelings. But in my opinion, you not sharing that with me is actually it's what's the word I'm looking for. No, it's not lying. It's that I have the expectation in this type of relationship as deep as this relationship is, is that you would be the one person that I can count on for telling me what I need to hear. And maybe that's what I was about to say is what I need to hear instead of it being massed because you're going to go out to the world and you're going to build all these relationships that are superficial. They're not going to have that much depth, but they are acquaintances and they're nice relationships and so forth. But if you were to ask them like, Oh, do you think I should go and do this? Or I've been thinking about this idea and someone says, Oh yeah, you'd be so good at that. But in their head, they're thinking, that sounds fucking horrible or you would not be good at that. But I think the circumstance, the example you gave, because I thought about this when I was also eating people's like, when do they need to figure that out for himself? It's more important that they figure that out versus if they're, they trust me and they're going to, whatever I say, they may go do and just take that and not put some thought into it itself. I think there's a balance of that too, because sometimes people need to experience and come to that conclusion theirself, it's actually more beneficial for them. And there's moments of fear set up plenty of time in those podcasts, but I'm working on it in therapies. I'm a people pleaser. So if I think something's going to hurt, probably more in the past, if I felt something was going to hurt you, I was probably reluctant to say it because I didn't want two things. I didn't want to hurt you and I didn't want the uncomfortable emotions. I would feel based off how you might respond. Well, what was the thing that you said the other night? You said, I was worried that you would internalize this and that you would use it against me. Yes. I've thought about that because I do have experience about happening in our relationship where I've said something, you have internalized it and it's got brought in up later on and used against me. So that's hard for me to want to share again and be honest. I know you want me to be honest, but you've been said on top of that, that that's just who I am. I use stuff from the past. I bring things up from the past so that I'm like, well, then I don't want to say it, you know? Yeah. No, I think that makes a lot of sense. And what we got to when we were talking about it is that I felt exactly the same way. I don't want you to internalize something that would hurt your feelings, especially on something that's a sensitive topic, as well as be used against me. I don't know if it would, I don't know if it's your new turn to throw it back at me. Like I wouldn't you, but I just, I think my biggest concern about being honest is how you would internalize it. Yeah. And I think we'll probably get more into this, but I think honesty, and I've said this to you before when you want to maybe say things to, you saw something out in the world. Maybe something going on and you're like, do I say something to that person or not or to this? And I've always asked you, are you doing this because it's going to make you feel good or are you doing it because you think it was being impactful for that other person, right? That's a different issue. I'm doing it for a selfish reason because I need to say because I want to get them, but I think I'm going to ask you a question on that. So we can use the example of what just happened on the Facebook thing that I asked you if I should say something. Basically, what happened was is somebody posted about wanting an iPad for their four-year-old child and that the, instead of anybody answering her question, they just fucking went at her about, how would you get your four-year-old an iPad? And I was just like, are you kidding me? So I had a thought that I wanted to respond to it and let her know that how impactful an iPad can be for your child while giving, while within moderation, but recognizing that there's a lot of gifts that it can give your kid, especially if they have a different learning style, Jake's learned how to trace or count or whatever. So I asked you if I should say something and you said yes. So what is the difference between that question that you just asked, will this impact somebody when they're like six degrees of separation versus your partner, where it feels really different? Yeah. I think that's why it's different. But I think you can ask that same question in your relationship. Am I saying this thing honestly because it's going to make me feel good because I'm going to get them and I'm like gotcha or I'm going to put them down and that makes me feel good or is it actually going to benefit them that I think it's actually going to help them grow and it's going to help our relationship become better. Like you told me you need to get the fuck off Instagram. Yeah. And I've been off. And I'm not trying to say maybe in the past I'd be like, I'm right. I know this work, right? But I really see how it's impacted you and I want you, I thought it was going to be beneficial for you, for our relationships, for the relationship with our children. I thought it would do all those things. So that's why I thought it'd be necessary to mention that, right? If I didn't think those things, I probably, there's, what's the point of saying, even if I had my head like, I don't go on Instagram, look at me, but if I actually didn't think that was going to benefit you getting off of it and benefit us and all those things, then what's the point of sharing it? That's my thought, right? Is that a thought that just going to, that's going to, it's going to piss you off and it's not going to help us and it's going to get us into a fight. So I don't think everything is worth sharing again if it's, if I'm doing it selfishly, right? Okay. That brings me to my next question then. So this is something else we've talked about is balancing our own needs while also respecting our partner and like recognizing that this may not be super beneficial for them. But it's really important to me or it feels hurtful or I have to get this out. And there have been things within our relationship that don't feel good for you to hear, but you want me to still tell you, you've asked me to tell you. So I think that's challenging because there has to be a little bit of selfishness. The reason why I'm like kind of like jumbling is because I'm working through it in my head as we're talking, but, give me things, let's go example. Hold on. So what I'm thinking is if you are going to share something because it is for you, like you're, this is something that is on your heart, something is, it is a quote unquote selfish need or experience and it has to do with being in your partnership and you need to share it to the person and it may end up hurting. This is actually where I think is the partner's job to not make it about themselves. Yeah, and that's hard to, but I would say to your point, it's also going to positively impact the relationship because if you are holding on to this thing that you need to say and you're holding on to it, it's going to come out in the relationship and it may not be in words or in a nice conversation, it can come out and much like this is still it might be a selfish thing, but also if you don't say this, it's going to hurt the relationship that you don't say this. And again too, that's, that's what I said the other night. My tendency, because I have this belief that maybe I'm not good enough and that's underlying a lot of things, right. And so when you might say something that's a criticism or confrontation or something I did, I have to, I'm trying to take a step back and go, Nikki, this is about her. And this isn't about me and my tendency is to make it about me. And then what causes us to get in the fight is that I counter you, right, but when I did this, or what about this, there's nothing to do with that. The fight happens for not what we're actually trying to talk about is you have this feeling and maybe I did something and the way you perceived it came out a certain way and that's what you're telling me. And then I take it as I'm not good enough, I'm not doing enough. And then then you lose to lose lose situation at that point. So that's a really important point that you just said is when someone's sharing with you about something on their heart or something that is feeling they have, it's not about you. It's about their experience that they need to share and you feel the space for that. Be curious and not go ego and take it in as this is about me. It's hard. I mean, that's such a skill in so hard. It's emotional, intelligent. It's a self-awareness. It's so many things. Therapy. Yeah, it's therapy. It's therapy. Yeah, but I think that's the point, but I want to say back to what you said earlier, you needed to share that because it was actually impactful for the relationship, right? And I think focusing on honesty and relationship to your feelings, right, and it's not blaming the other person. So you and I've talked about too. Yeah, it's a situation or experience. Like I feel this way because of this experience, not you make me feel this way when it comes no one can make you feel certainly do you agree with that? I've learned I have had this since I'm in my head since I was like two years old. So I understand and I think with the more work that I've done personally, anything that I experience is based off my own stuff, right? It's not necessarily that person. That moment or that experience with that person might have triggered, but that's already been there for you. Okay. Let's go back. Okay. So let's go back to where we were in regards to like the career thing. When you kind of don't, it's, I wouldn't call it telling the truth. I don't know if you want to call it a little white lie and like in that regard, our little white lies ever. Okay. Right. It's like to tell your partner, oh, you look great and maybe they don't. I do think it's it. See, that's hard, right? Because here's the thing is it's really, really hard. Because as I'm, again, why I'm taking so long to process this, because let's just say I put a swimsuit on and you say you look great in it, I am going to feel more confident. But if I'm not feeling that way myself, I may not fully believe what you have to say. In my opinion, it feels like radical honesty. I think that's what I expect. Like I think I was going to ask you like kind of said mine, I think, I think it's also based off our childhoods, like around us vastly different years where, and you can share more into it where it wasn't as like we just say everything and anything to each other. Like, you know, some things you just don't say and talk about. Yeah. And I don't think it needs to be every single thing. I think something that I struggle with having ADHD is that I don't have a strong filter of things, but I've gotten better over the years to slow down and not say everything. But if I'm in a really heated state, I'm going to just spitfire. I know. You don't think everything needs to be said. I think we having privacy, right? Like what's the difference between privacy and transparency? But I do feel like if I'm to come to you with a challenge or I'm feeling like I'm needing that second person's opinion or support, my expectation is that you're honest. And if it feels, I don't like the feeling, knowing that you may not have been honest about something. Of course not. I don't think you think about this in the same way that I do. So to me, when you choose a partner and this is a partner you're going to have for life, this is again, my idea. Yeah. Okay. That is that you will have not only like a partner that you can share honestly with. But the second part of that is that they are going to give you, like they're what you see in the movies or they're going to be your rooting fans or they're going to be right alongside you or they're going to tell you the truth about something. But then it does raise the question about how do those words that you share impact me? Yes, because back to everything we talk about here, if someone hasn't done the personal work and takes everything personally and everything, I don't know if that's always helpful, right? That's my therapy. It's been so beneficial for us to have this mediator, like where you might be responding to something I'm saying in the way that if we didn't have her around, she's like, whoa, you know, she's able to pause us. Well, I will say that as I was, you were just saying that I was thinking about, you know, the years that you had done your own personal work and I had not gotten there yet and probably how frustrating some of our conversations were for you because everything was really clear. And I can only relate to that now, me being on this other side where I see other people who are like stuck and I'm like, but it's so clear and I can't say that, right? I can't because they need to work through it themselves, which is what you-- That's honesty, right? Wait, so there have been times where I've shared honesty to a certain extent, but if someone's not ready or willing to hear something, then that's not-- it's going to fall on deaf ears. Yeah. So-- and then you just to come all the way full circle, what you said earlier about like leaders and so forth is me coming to this myself. It didn't work when I was trying to tell you that. It didn't work when you were trying to tell. Like I was calling you out for something saying, you know, because it comes, as we said earlier, the things I've said in the past come back to me, you go, I know what you're going to say here, Jared. That's on you, right? And I said that and that wasn't the way I was approaching it before, it was not the way I should have approached it. But it's also that that's a piece of this too, is the way you deliver and communicate is also important, right? Of how the honesty and how the communication is coming across, but it's so hard because there's the giver and there's the receiver where each person at that moment, right? Obviously, hopefully in the relationship, this foundation of love and trust that I'm not ever here to hurt you or I'm never here to hurt you with things that I'm saying, that you hopefully know my heart and that my intention with anything I'm saying is to benefit you because I care about you deeply. Maybe it's not the right thing to say or not say in the moment, but it's always coming from this place. So how do we always separate? Sometimes I'm not going to delivering messages or communicating because I think too much of I had to worry about in my communicating it, because back to the past stuff, sometimes I've said things that I think I said what you wanted me to say, but it wasn't the right way, right? We talked about that. So then I get in my head about that too. So there's just so many dynamics in it, but I think it's two things, it's the underlying foundation of the relationship, which I think we have that trust and know that we're always coming from a place and some things we're going to say things that hurt each other, that's just the reality of a relationship. But the second thing is where is that personality, back to the personal work, our dynamic and our relationships got better for each of us doing individual work at the end of the day and understanding that. So I don't think it's everything, because there's some moments where I could say this, but I can know it's not going to help this relationship, it's not going to help her. I'm doing it because I'm making me feel good and I've said those things and I've seen what happens and we get in a fight and it's not better on the other side of it. What are your thoughts? Because you were raised in a family that's all can put everything out there, right? Let's see it, I see it until this day, it's just honesty and that works for you because you always come out on the other side of it, right? And I think it's- Maybe that's what my expectation is for a partnership. 100% like you say what's totally on your mind, but we've talked about this, something that I need, I have to do is be able to process, which when you do just go, but it's also if you want to say something to somebody, in the moment it's going to come out in a certain way. But it's also being, can I pause it? Okay, I think I want to say this, but let's actually think about it, what I ask you is this for me because I'm going to feel so much better by saying this because I've got them, or this is going to help us in our relationship. But so, let's use the example that happened every evening, right? So you wanted to say something, you didn't want to say it, you wanted time to process and I pushed- You pushed. For you to talk in the moment. And look how valuable that was. I don't know yet, is it? Was it valuable? Tell me why it was valuable. I would say that it's all happened over a holiday week, we were exhausted, Taryn. We're exhausted. We're exhausted. And I can't remember what actually happened, why- Oh, I was baking pies and the crust was not up to my standard. Perfection standards. I just made crust for my pies. Anyways, I got really upset. This is after a really long day of parenting. I was at my max. I was really just exhausted. And so at that point, my bandwidth to going with the flow is very, very weak. It's very, very little battery, if for that. So I had a larger reaction than probably was necessary. Then it started a whole snowball of event of Jared and I getting into a disagreement. And then what we're just referring to now is he shared with me that I make big deals out of little things. And then I brought up to his attention that to me, they're not little things. To me, they feel like big things. And again, we have to all look at our life's experience, our belief systems, our conditioned response, everything that we experience, there's a reason why my reaction to this pie crust not being what I want to be is a big deal, right? But to Jared, it's not a big deal. But there are other things that may feel like more of a big deal to him that I would completely blow on. That's why I first didn't want to share. Right. So he said that. But then it brought into the conversation about what we're talking about now, about our belief systems about why things are a big deal and an honesty. And to be honest, it is something that I internalized. It is something that I'm now thinking about. But at the same time, it is giving me a pause where I did not have necessarily before, which is like, is this really a big deal? Like is this something that I can work through? And so it's not always going to be available and accessible to me in those exact moments because I'm going to most likely go to default. At the same time, there's more information out there, and especially when it's coming from somebody that I respect and trust and love, it's going to land differently. And then the second thing he was really honest, you were really honest about, was about Instagram and about how it's really impacting my mental health, our relationship, me, and like how over-stimulated it is, how much it impacts me specifically being ADHD. And I signed out of it that night. The point is, is that I've now been off it this whole holiday weekend. And it feels... Well, what you said was really important. I think it's easier to speak, honestly, and receive that honest from your partner when there's that trust and respect for one another. Yeah. Like that's really crucial because it might hurt things that we say to each other. But you, as I said earlier, if you know it's coming from a place and there's this underlying foundation of love and trust of one another, then yeah, it might be hard to hear or hard to say, but you can always... It should benefit. So where does that leave you now? Like, are you more willing to be more honest? I think it tends, but I still don't think it's everything. No, no, no. I don't think it's everything. I think I can be, but I also think it's something I tried to use when I was a leader. Maybe I should use these. Like, are you open to feedback? Are you open for me to be honest right now? Because if you're not open, is that helpful? Yeah. It's that simple permission. Yeah. You got to ask for permission because you might not be in the state. And sometimes I might not be in the state. Yeah. To receive it. And so it might be important that you do share it, but I might not be in a position to accept it. Yeah. And is that helpful? Yeah. But I also think to what we're doing now, I think it's also to not let it be the end of the thing. Close the loop on it. Like, if I say something or you say something honestly, and you're probably going to affect the receiver, this one will be come back and talk about it. Okay. I know I said that. Where are you now with it? I don't think a lot of times we do that. I don't think a lot of people do that. It just said out there. And then it's kind of like, Dan, that was that hurt. That was said. And then when do we come back to it? Luckily, we sometimes do because we have a platform to do therapy that helps us, but I think we need to do, you know, because this is the first time we're coming back from that. I think it actually, you know, and even when you said that thing about me making little things big, I was tough in the moment here. You said, I'm going to internalize this, but then when do we come back and go, have you thought about it? Where are you at now? You know, but I think it will be helpful because then that also probably reinforces the giver to be like, okay, that wasn't that bad. Right? Yeah. And it was helpful. Yeah. So maybe it reinforces more honesty and then because I just don't want you, as I said, I don't want you to internalize it and take it personally. Just hard. And I also don't want it to come back. Yeah. Which I don't like. Yeah. That hurts. Makes sense. Yeah. How does it make you think about this? Are you still the same? Do you have like, is there moments that you've had in our relationship where you haven't said something? Yes. And why didn't you say something? Didn't want to hurt you. And when looking back, is it still the best decision? I think what you just said about where we can share, we left it enough, unfortunate enough to be able to have a couple of therapy. And with that, I think it creates a safe space to share certain things because she's there to mediate. Yeah. She stops us. Like stops us. Like when I was like, nope. Like don't go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. From what I've really come to realize is that when I don't, when I'm not honest, at least for the way my DNA works is that it only impacts us worse. Yeah. So like I actually like have to be, again, it's not every single thing. And there are some things where I can make is this really worth it. But there are some elements, some experiences, some things that come up that if I don't share them and I try to just metabolize it myself, it will only combust in other ways. Yeah. And I think that's where I'm at with that. Yeah. I think what's important too, back to how this whole podcast goes, is an important lesson for me over this weekend that I learned was that when you are honest or giving me something about something I did or said, right, I make it about me, right? And so back to the personal work, I think it's really important when you think about yourself in a relationship is one, when you typically speak honestly, what is your intent typically? How are you approaching it? There's probably multiple ways you're approaching it, but is it to get at that person or your partner? And secondly, when you do get feedback from your partner, what is your typical response? Is it defensiveness? Like if you can learn about that and understand that about yourself and then understand about your partner, you can navigate those conversations because that's what therapies help us understand is how do we respond in those moments to know that it's not, it's neither about you or me. It's more about who we are as individuals and what has happened over our lifetime, why I don't like getting feedback and what it makes me feel like I'm not good enough and how I get defensive and want to like say all the things I've done, right? It's me like countering it versus being open. So I think that's a great place to start is just reflect back on times where you've given it or received it, like how did you feel, why were you giving or saying that to your partner, how did you receive other stuff that they gave to you and then you can learn and maybe have a conversation about that first so we can be aware the next time because honesty is important. No doubt in a relationship and I still don't think everything in the world needs to be shared. Yeah, totally agree. Cool. Anything else to share? Nope. All right. Well, thank you guys for listening. Please share with us, honestly, your feedback comments, if you're new to the channel, please subscribe. And you're just hearing us. We're still, we're still, obviously, obviously we're still kind of figured out together. But yeah, the human experience alive and well right here right now. Thank you guys. Hope you had a great holiday and we'll see you next time. Bye. - Bye. - Bye. (upbeat music)
