(upbeat music) - Hi, I'm Elizabeth Heynman, host of Lifeway Women's Marked Podcast, and I'd like to invite you to check out our show. The Marked Podcast is a podcast for women who are marked by a hunger for God's word, a longing to impact culture, and a desire to discover and live out God's calling in their lives. Each episode, we'll talk to authors like Jen Wilkin, Jackie Hill Perry, Christy McClellan, and Priscilla Shire about what God is doing, how he has and is marking each of us. Learn more by clicking on the link in the show notes, or by going to lifelaywomen.com/podcast. We hope you'll join us. (upbeat music) ♪ There's still a lot of fun ♪ ♪ I'm gonna make it shine ♪ ♪ Make it shine, make it shine ♪ ♪ Make it shine ♪ - Welcome back to another episode of Let It Shine. Guys, I'm so happy you're here, and I am thrilled to say Merry Christmas. It is December, and we are all feeling in the Christmas spirit. I hope that you had a wonderful Thanksgiving experiencing just a time of gratefulness, and now we move on to celebrate the birth of the Lord Jesus Christ. We're doing something super special on the podcast this month in December. We are celebrating Advent. Now, Advent may not be something you are super familiar with. Maybe you've heard it around Christmas time, or maybe you know what exactly what Advent is, and you are really excited to walk through it again this year. There are lots of ways to observe this holiday. Advent is a season in the Christian calendar that anticipates the coming of Christ. So it's a time to reflect on hope, on peace, on love, and on joy. And so we're gonna do that. Every week I'm discussing a different element of Advent with one of our guests. So you're gonna get to hear from today we are talking about hope, and who better to talk about hope than Nicole Zazowski. She is my guest today. And guys, I cannot wait for you to hear what she has to say about hope. Many of you have read her book, What If It's Wonderful? She's been on the show before. I talk about that book probably more than any other book that I've read in the last few years. And so I highly recommend it to you if you have not read it. Nicole also has an awesome Bible study coming out with Life Way in the next year in 2025. So you'll wanna check that out. But today she and I are talking all about hope. Another cool thing I have done with this Advent series is I've been listening to a few different podcast series on Advent. And I found Don Mark Homer did a really cool series. It's only a couple of episodes on a couple of these aspects. So you will hear me refer to it in a couple of my recordings this month. But I wanna point you to those podcast recordings, those sermons that he preached on Advent. They'll be linked in the show notes so that you can listen to those as well. I'm actually bringing a lot of that info into these conversations. So I think you'll really love it. So I'm thankful to Don Mark Homer for inspiring this series and for giving some amazing content to us. Before we get started, I wanna let you know that even though it is December and it is the beginning of December, we are already thinking about what we're gonna be doing to challenge ourselves to grow in the new year. And so I have a New Year's Challenge coming in January. Nikki Ogden, one of our illuminators is gonna be here in the very last episode of this month of December to tell us all about our New Year's Challenge. And so she and I will be walking through every bit of it at the end of December, but I want you to know it's coming because if you're like me and I think many of you are, you're already thinking, what am I gonna do to get my ducks in a row when January gets here? So I'm just giving you fair warning. We're gonna be talking a little bit about it in December so that you can be planning to join our New Year's Challenge when January gets here. So it's coming, it's coming. Be looking forward on Instagram, be listening to the podcast so you can get more information, but all of it will be laid out the very last episode of the year when Nikki and I record an episode about the New Year's Challenge at the end of December. There are many ways to observe the advent season as we talked about. One of them is through lighting candles. And so we're gonna take just a minute to light a candle and think about the hope of advent. So if you have a candle nearby, push pause, go grab your lighter, I've got my clicker right here. And let's light a candle together. This candle is gonna remind us of the presence of God as he is with us as you listen. So maybe you are running errands and you can't light a candle right now. And that's okay. But maybe you are at home folding laundry, maybe you're washing dishes, and you've got a candle nearby. I'm lighting a candle called mahogany balsam. Doesn't that just sound so Christmasy? I'm gonna take just a second and light this candle and we're just gonna acknowledge that God's presence is here with us as we enter into this conversation about the hope of the advent season. And our candle is lit. Here's my conversation with Nicole Zazowski. Nicole Zazowski, welcome back to the podcast. - Aw, thanks for having me, Angie. It's always an easy yes to talk to you. - Thank you. You've been on the show before, back when it was called "Chadology." I'm pretty sure. - All right. - Yeah, not when we, and not since the rebrand. So welcome back. I'm so glad you're here. And I'm so glad you are part of this advent series. And really, what a great way to kick it off with talking to you about hope. And I've actually been thinking a lot about the word hope, and I'm gonna tell you why. It's because of the election season that we just came through. I feel like I have seen a lot of despair. A lot of, let's just say it, disappointment, a lot of, maybe the opposite of hope from people who I would expect to be filled with hope, including me, right? So I thought it would be really cool to kind of start this off by talking about what hope is. And you know, when we say that Jesus is our hope, that that's something that we've heard a lot in sermons leading up to this election season. You know, we need to put our hope in Christ, our He is our only hope, Jesus is our only hope, not Obi-Wan Kenobi, but Jesus. - Right. - I don't know if you know the "Star Wars" reference. Anyway. - I am not a "Star Wars" person, but I do know that right. - Right. - The truth is, I'm not either, but I know that one. (laughing) Yeah, so tell me what you think about that. Like when we say what is hope, why should we have hope this season? What comes to your mind? - Oh, so many things. I think for me, as somebody who has had to practice or had a lot of opportunities to practice, holding hope when life has not turned out the way that I wanted, or the provision has looked different than my vision for what my life looks like. I think my personal favorite definition would be that hope or quality about hope, I guess, is that hope rejoices in their relationship over the result. Because it puts, when we say Jesus is our hope, what we're saying is, it's safe to hope. I talk a lot about the vulnerability of joy. You and I have had a lot of conversations about that and hope I would call, in some ways, joys sister. It has that same quality of vulnerability because if our hope is in a result or a particular outcome, it won't. It's not very safe because there's no guarantees that what we want to happen is going to happen or that the result will be something that we want. But if our hope is in something sure, like the promises of God that cannot be extinguished by an emotion or cannot be snuffed out by circumstances, then it is safe to hope. One of my favorites, I actually marked it in preparation for our conversation. One of my favorite scriptures that talks about hope is actually Laminations 3, 19 through 22, 23. But it says, I remember my affliction and my wandering. The bitterness and the gall, I remember them and my soul is downcast within me. So this is, I mean, he spent 22 verses. I won't read all 22, but talking about how disappointed and devastated he is by his circumstances and then nothing changes. But he says, yet this I call to mind and therefore I have hope because of the Lord's great love, we are not consumed for his compassion never fails. And I love that because nothing changes in his circumstances, but he's able to claim truth that's always true in the midst of any kind of circumstance. So that was a long-winded word, that's wonderful. - Hope from where I sit. - Yeah, I think that's great. I love that you said it's safe to hope because I think that, you know, as we've heard many times, I don't wanna get my hopes up, you know? And I think you and I even talked about on the show, should we get our hopes up? I think I asked you that question, should I get my hopes up? And you said, of course you should. And I tell people that all the time, my son's girlfriend has applied for a new job and he told me she's not got her hopes up, she's keeping her expectations really live. And I said, well, tell her I've got that hopes up. - Yes, I love that. I love that that's a phrase you're injecting into the lives of your people and your community. - Say a little more about getting our hopes up. - Yes, this goes along with the vulnerability of joy and hope. A lot of us are afraid to hope for something and hold God's good gifts for fear that they will be snatched away. And we're waiting for the other shoe to drop. The possibility is often too much to tolerate, which is why we say things like, I'm not getting my hopes up. And what the brain often does is it thinks that pessimism expecting the worst or preparing ourselves for the worst or cynicism, which I used to use interchangeably, they're actually different. Pessimism is holding a lack of hope for the future. Cynicism doubts people's motives, including God's. So if you've ever thought God would do that for them, but not for me, that would be a cynical response that's similar to pessimism. But we do this, I call it flying low. 'Cause that's a picture I have in my mind. We do this so that if we have low expectations, we think it won't hurt as much if we expect the outcome and if that outcome should come to be. But the research is really clear that even if that negative outcome or that outcome we fear should come to pass, having prepared for it and expected it in advance actually doesn't lessen the sting at all. What you will protect yourself from is the delight of wonder of what might God do. Or the delight of how might he move in my story? Or wouldn't this be fun? Now, of course, he'll be disappointed. We're not robots. We're not, we absolutely have feelings in response to a negative outcome. I think we know hope is displaced when it becomes devastating or at questions. It makes us question our ideas about God or our ideas about our own value or sense of security. That's when we know, oops, our hope was in the outcome or the result and not the relationship with God and his provisioning care for me. - I love that you said that because I heard Don Mark Homer say the disappointment that we feel, although it is very human, it should also signal to us that our hope is in the wrong thing. And I had never thought of it that way, that disappointment is not wrong. It is part of our human experience, but it should be a flag to us to say, where am I putting my hope if this is such a grave disappointment to me? I love that you say it has to be in the relationship, not in the outcome, it's so good. So this is the way John Mark Homer defined hope. He defines it as the expectation of coming good based on the person and promises of God. I think that's so cool with how that aligns with your definition. I think they're perfectly matched. I love that. You hear that relational component in there that we, it is safe to be expected because our expectations are in the person and presence of Jesus Christ that we are promised will not disappoint. And just like he says, you know, disappointment is part of the human experience. And yet there is an invitation there, particularly I would say if that definition bleeds over into what I would call devastation or where we start questioning the character of God or who we are to him or our security and his economy based on the outcome. That to me, you know, Augustine talks about disordered loves. And I see those conversations as very connected where it just shines the light on what are the gifts or the desires of our heart that might be standing awkwardly in the wrong position of our heart. And it's just our reaction there is just an invitation to consider where do I need to reorganize what I love? And another question I ask myself is what gifts in my life am I expecting more joy from or more hope from than they were meant to give? They're good things, you know, a new job. Like in your example that you gave a few minutes ago, that's a great thing, a new job. It's exciting and, you know, we get to use our gifts in a new way, but if we're expecting more joy from that than it's meant to give, if we don't get it, we'll be really, really devastated. And if we do get it, it won't be long before it will be dissatisfying. - Okay, so I think that's a perfect scenario. Let's just talk about that for a minute because we've already said it's good to get our hopes up, but we don't want to put our hope in the outcome of that situation. So what's the difference? - I think we can get excited for the possibility of what God might do and how He might move in this situation and maybe this is it. Maybe this is what He has for me. - What if it's wonderful? - What if it's wonderful? That's right, that's interesting. That's the title of my latest book and it was a catchphrase that became very important to me to interrupt my own pessimism that I tended to rely on to protect myself from the vulnerability of hope and Angie and I like to say it to each other. - I like to say it to my kids. I like to say it to my husband. I like to say, what if it's wonderful to all the people in my life? - Oh, I'm so glad it's been a helpful praise for you and people in your life. And it has been for me too and it prompts me to be more expectant for how God's gonna move than reliant on a particular outcome for my peace and joy. - That's awesome. - I love the story of Elizabeth and it's appropriate since we're talking about Advent. She is such a great example of what this looks like because on the one hand, she does receive a gift that she's long for for a really long time. This is Elizabeth from Luke one, the mother of who we now know is John the Baptist mom and she's longed for this baby for years and in her old age, she has promised a son and she celebrates so readily even though her story has been marked by a lot of disappointment and longing and confusion and even God's people has been, their story has been marked by that as well up until this point. But the heartbeat of her celebration, if you look at her celebration throughout that whole chapter of Luke one is the coming savior and she knows that we don't just hope because of what we might receive, even though she did get to be really excited about the gift in her own life, we hope and rejoice because of who we receive in the presence of Jesus Christ. And that's the heartbeat of celebration in that story. And I read that story and I think, "Gosh, is it the heartbeat of my own? Is it the heartbeat of my hope that no matter what, that I get to rejoice in the person in presence of Jesus Christ, that that's better than what I could receive is who I am promised and who is with me always." So that's another really encouraging story as we think about the Advent season that we hope because of not what we receive but who we receive. - I love that so much and that is gonna actually lead me into this next section I wanna talk to you about. So my listeners know that this series on Advent is really based on a sermon series by John Mark Comer that he did last year. And we're gonna link to it in the show notes but I'm gonna give you a real quick peek right here. He says that here are four things that it means this Christmas to put our hope in God. And I love this, it breaks it down for me and it just is exactly what you're saying. So I'm just gonna jump into it. Number one, our number one reason to hope is that Jesus will return and make all things new. And I think that is so good and so helpful to us to remember that there is hope for the return of Jesus and that really is the basis of Advent. There was hope for the first time he came, his arrival as a child, as a baby. And I will tell you, I read through the Bible and I think it was 2022 and I did it all, mostly audibly, I listened every morning as I was getting ready. And man, it takes a long time to get through that Old Testament. Anybody who's ever done that, they know, it takes a long time. And I remember the day that I pushed play on that app and we were in the New Testament. And it was this sense of (sighs) and I cannot even imagine the way that they were anticipating and hoping for the Messiah because I realized once I was experiencing the arrival, just of the story that I had hoped for the arrival of that story, you know? And so that's just a small taste, but that was the original hope. But now our hope and the reason we celebrate Advent is for the anticipation of the second coming of Jesus and that he will make all things new. Anything to add? - Well, a phrase I'm thinking of that prompts me to remember that is what is dark today is not gonna be dark forever. And that is just a paraphrase of exactly what John Mark Omar was saying with those four things is that is one of the reasons that our hope is secure is celebration is the mood of eternity. That we are promised the ending to that story. - Celebration is the mood of eternity. Man, that's good. - And we are promised that ending. We don't know what the story will entail until that point, but we do know how the story is going to end and it will end with hope, it will end with joy. Our hope is not in vain, not foolish to hope. I think a lot of us are afraid that hope will make a fool of us. And that's another clue that maybe our hope is in the wrong thing. But yes, and I loved your experience of reading the Bible in one year. Being a small taste of what God's people must have felt 'cause I think we often come to Luke one around this time of year. And we read the Christmas story in Luke one and Luke two, but we forget that God had been silent for 400 to 500 years. I mean, can you imagine if our ancestors in the 1500s were the last people to hear from God and they passed this promise down and every generation waited and didn't see fulfillment of that promise, it would be so hard to hang on to that hope and to remember those promises and to let them still hold a place in your heart. And yet Elizabeth did because she recognized Jesus immediately and she celebrated readily. And the same will be true for us. We will celebrate easily and readily when our hope is in the Lord. - Amen. So the second point that he makes is probably my favorite thing to reflect upon at Christmas time. And it is the fact that Jesus is with us in our sufferings. This is the message of Jesus at Christmas. He is Emmanuel. He is God with us. And I think this is probably the truth that I cling to more than any other truth throughout the year is no matter what I am going through, no matter what I am encountering, that he is with us, he is with me. Tell me how that speaks to you this Christmas. - I mean, it's the best gift ever, right? That's what we celebrate at Christmas. Jesus came to us. I had a client or a reader, actually, who read my book, "What If It's Wonderful?" And she asked me this really vulnerable question. She said, "Nicole, do you think we need to demonstrate "a certain level of hope or joy in our lives "in order for God to intervene in our circumstances?" And that's just our, I related so much. That's our pain of, do I need to perform or be good enough in order to experience some of this joy. And really, there's a lot of encouragement in Zechariah's story in Luke 1 because he wanted proof before he was willing to trust the promise, and he was silenced for a time, but ultimately he still received the gift that God had for him. And again, the heartbeat of celebration in that Christmas story is that Jesus came to us. This isn't about us climbing closer to God's favor so that we can receive him. No, it's him coming into our place of sorrow, into our place of joy wherever we find ourselves, this holiday season that he came near. There's a message in his method of coming, that it was quiet and small and he came down into those places. There's a popular phrase, choose joy in our culture. And I think that can get misconstrued in a lot of ways that we have to manufacture a certain feeling. And if that is something you felt pressured by, I wanted to share something I shared recently. For me, choosing joy means being honest about my grief and knowing I have a comforter, naming the areas I feel weak and being relieved by God's strength, carrying my questions and confusion and trusting God's sovereignty. Holding the pain of what is not and the hope of what will be. In God's economy, choosing joy doesn't ask us to pretend it means recognizing God's presence and power in our pain. - That's exactly right. Okay, let's move on. Number three, Jesus will use our suffering to form us into people of love in order to co-rule with him in the world. He will use our suffering in order to form us into people of love. I think that is such a profound thought. And I think that sometimes we might distort this a little bit as Christians to think that maybe everything has a purpose. That might be a little controversial that I just said that, but no matter what we are suffering, no matter what we are going through, that God, if we release it to him, can use it for good. What's your take on that? - Yes, it is a truth that gets distorted, but it's a really important truth. And it's one of the things that when life feels unsafe or not the way that we predicted, it's one of the truths that actually helps us move through that pain is knowing that God doesn't waste it. He's not the author of our suffering, but he certainly doesn't waste it either. And if a question I encourage myself and my clients to ask ourselves is, if I have to go through this, how can I grow through this? Or how is God inviting me to grow? - Again, he is not the author of our suffering. And he does not ask us to call our pain good. I think that's an important mistake. I think of Paul who talks about the thorn in the flesh and he asked God to remove it three times. It was not pleasant. It was not something he wanted in his life. And yet this is where he says I can be thankful in it because it is what keeps me tethered to the hope of Christ. It's what keeps me tethered to knowing God and relying on him and helping me to be formed into something new. And that doesn't make it easy. It doesn't make the circumstances good. But if we have to go through it, how might God form us through it? - Okay. And his last point, this is what it means to hope in God is that Jesus will bring the hope of good that's coming in the future world into the mess of this world. So he said Jesus can bring to us a sneak peek of our coming life into our present life. And I just love that so much. And he spoke of practicing gratitude, which I know is really important to you and something you write about. So tell me how even practicing gratitude in your life has helped with your hopefulness and putting it in the right place. - Sure. There's actually a couple of celebration practices that came to mind as you were talking about that, that we just an awareness and an awe of the delight that we have in the Lord, available to us now, even in the midst of the mess and the longing for what is to come. And the first one is the practice of savoring, which I know you and I have talked about before, but if you're not familiar and listening, savoring just helps us extract more joy from small moments in life that our brain would naturally dismiss. And the way that you practice it is you take one small moment. I'm talking like a moment you could take a picture of with your brain. Could be the look on your friend's face when you give them a compliment. It could be the sound of your child's laughter, a scene from nature, but sliced really small. And you just ask your five traditional senses what they're gonna remember about that moment. So what do you see? What do you hear? What do you smell? What do you taste? And what do you feel? And that helps you have awe and wonder and celebration about the way that God is revealing himself in your everyday life, bringing that kingdom, that joyful kingdom near. And you mentioned gratitude and Thanksgiving as a really important practice for me. I used to use the ideas and terms of gratitude and Thanksgiving interchangeably. And I've learned that there is a difference. Gratitude, Thanksgiving is the outward expression of the gratitude that we feel in our hearts. So gratitude is important. It does help us notice and name what is good in our lives. So you could even do that alongside savoring. As a goodness, I feel so grateful for this moment that I'm experiencing either in God's creation or with this person he's put in my life. Thanksgiving increases the joy that we would have experienced had we simply quietly felt grateful in our hearts. So if you wanna expand the joy that comes from gratitude and the delight in the kingdom of heaven and the way that God foreshadows that joy in our lives today, you actually express that Thanksgiving out loud, either to somebody he's put in your life. So and so friend, this is the difference our friendship makes in my life. Or here's how I have grown as a result of our relationship. Or here's how you've challenged me to think differently about something and I'm so grateful. But even to God in our prayers, if you have that moment of savoring where you're delighting in something in your life, just being able to say out loud, that's important, to say it out loud, thank you God for this gift. Because Thanksgiving is the avenue we've been given to celebrate the gift with the giver. And that naturally will lead us to more joy as we do that. - I had a moment like this last night where my husband and I went to see one of my all-time favorite artists. There's probably not another artist that gives me more of a sentimental feeling than Amy Grant. And she was in Orlando last night. We went to the Amy Grant concert. And she, you know, stood on the stage with her guitar. She had a full band, but for this moment, I'm gonna just get emotional talking about it. - Yeah. - Just her and her guitar. And she's saying, "El should I?" And I just took a snapshot. Yeah, I took a snapshot. I just stopped for a moment. This is a sacred moment. I never wanna forget, I never wanna forget this moment. It just meant so much to me, you know. And I think that, yeah, seeing those moments, recognizing those moments in her lives that are so beautiful and simple and precious is such a great way to even experience that feeling of gratefulness and of hope and of joy. I know that there are people listening right now who aren't going through some really hard things. And so for us to say, but just have more hope this season feels a little tone deaf or, you know, I understand. And so as we started this conversation, talking about despair even or disappointment or you said another D-word, what did you say? - Devastation. - Devastation. Would you say those things are the opposite of hope? - I think so, yeah. - And so I think that we are all experiencing those things as the opposite of hope in our lives. But I think in the midst of that, finding those moments where we can just identify the goodness that is happening in our lives, even though it might not be everything we want it to be, I think we can all find moments of good to savor like that that will help turn our hearts toward the hope of the season. - Yeah, absolutely. And in asking ourselves, what is still true? You know, what is still true about God's goodness and how has he been faithful to me in the past that could fuel my hope for what he might do in the future? And even though I can't see it, can't picture it, have no idea how he's kind of worked that through, he's been faithful to me through the years and how can that fuel my wonder for what might he do? - That's amazing. I just want to encourage everybody just to remember that the invitation of Advent is to set our hope back onto its rightful place in Jesus. And I think that as we begin to identify our disappointments or even our despairing places, just to be challenged, to take that before the Lord and say, how can I realign so that my hope is in the right place? So thank you, Nicole, for being here today. I always love talking to you. And I hope you have a hope field, hope field Christmas season. - You too, Angie. Thank you so much for having me. - "Let It Shine" is a production of the "Lifeway Podcast," executive produced by me, Angie Elkins, produced by Nikki Ogden. It's recorded at the "Lifeway Podcast" studios and engineered by Donnie Gordon, edited by Robert Elkins. An original theme song arranged by Robert Elkins, the Maestro himself, performed by Tiffany Casey, Abby Pierce, Ryan Walker, Jarian Felton, and Shauna Felton, art by Grace Morgan. And I'm your host, Angie Elkins. Meet me back here next week. ♪ I'm still a lot of mine ♪ ♪ I'm still a lot of mine ♪ ♪ I'm still a lot of mine ♪ ♪ I'm still a lot of mine ♪ ♪ I'm still a lot of mine ♪ ♪ Let it shine, let it shine, let it shine ♪ (upbeat music)
Send us a textAs we enter into the season of Advent, we are reminded that hope is at the heart of this sacred season. Hope is more than wishful thinking; it is the confident expectation rooted in God’s promises. In a world often filled with uncertainty, Advent calls us to reflect on the hope fulfilled in Christ’s birth and the hope we hold as we anticipate His return. Join Angie Elkins and Nicole Zasowski as they explore the transformative power of hope. Together, they discuss how hope is fou...
