Talkin' Ball with Pat Leonard

Talkin' Ball: Payton vs. Tomlin for Coach of Year? Saquon vs. Allen for MVP? Can Steelers knock off Chiefs?

Duration:: 43m
Broadcast on:: 04 Dec 2024
Audio Format:: other

Super Bowl 50 champion Bennie Fowler joins New York Daily News NFL columnist Pat Leonard to recap Eagles-Ravens, Bills-49ers, Broncos-Browns and more of the NFL's biggest wins of Week 13. They also answer pressing questions like: Who will win Coach of the Year? Who is the NFL MVP: Saquon Barkley or Josh Allen? Can the Steelers knock off the Chiefs in the playoffs? What's wrong with Kirk Cousins? And much more @Bleav. SUBSCRIBE to the @PLonNFL YouTube page to get the latest Giants updates and news delivered directly to you, and to participate in regular LIVE Q&A chats with Pat. Purchase a Super Chat or Super Sticker to have your comments elevated to the top of the feed and have Pat answer your question FIRST! Watch the full video of this @Bleav podcast on Pat's YouTube Channel. Find Pat also on 'X' (@PLeonardNYDN), Instagram (@PLonNFL) & TikTok (@PLonNFL). Talkin' Ball with Pat Leonard is brought to you by MyBookie. It’s MyBookie’s 10th year anniversary, and they’re rolling out the red carpet for bettors, including Risk-Free Thursdays and weekly no-sweat bets all season long. Use the promo code 'PATSPICKS' here to get your first deposit of $50 or more matched 100% up to $1,000 plus a $10 casino chip. Make your Football season a winning season with MyBookie! Bet Anything, Anytime, Anywhere. Talkin' Ball with Pat Leonard is also sponsored by @BoomChaga and @Estate98Coffee. BOOM Chaga Mushroom SuperDrink is a natural extract loaded with anti-inflammatory, immune-boosting antioxidants and heart-healthy compounds. Go to BoomChaga.com and use the code TALKINBALL25 to get a 25% discount on your first Subscribe and Save Order. Estate98 Coffee is a specialty coffee concentrate that's perfect when you want to make a quick cup of coffee and skip the lines. It takes less than 10 seconds to make a delicious Estate 98 iced or hot coffee, it’s great as a mixer for espresso martinis and each bottle can make up to 16 cups. Go to estate98.com/talkinball to get an exclusive offer for 80% off your first order.

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Plus Shopify's award-winning help is there to support your success every step of the way, because businesses that grow grow with Shopify. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com/Westwood1. All lowercase. Go to Shopify.com/Westwood1 now to grow your business. No matter what stage you're in, Shopify.com/Westwood1. All right. Welcome back to Talking Ball with Pat Leonard, week 13 recap edition with Super Bowl 50 champion, former NFL wide receiver, Benny Fowler, and everybody needs to stop the presses right now. This may never happen again with my bookie here on the Talking Ball with Pat Leonard podcast on the Believe Network. I posted a 15 and one record against the spread in week 13 of the 2024 NFL season. Two and one on Pat's picks. We went a perfect 3 and 0 on Thanksgiving after going a perfect 3 and 0 on Pat's picks in week 12. So 3 and 0 on Thanksgiving, 8 and 1 in our last 9 Pat's picks and 15 and 1 against the spread this week, week 13 in the NFL season. 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All right, we are back talking ball with pat Leonard week 13 recap edition. It's first down with Benny Fowler. It's our Super Bowl champion and former NFL wide receiver back in the building after a big win out in Denver, Benny Fowler. What's up? What's up beans? Monday night football. It is. I mean, it's you're the only game in town. You're the only game on TV and the Bronco showed up. But so did so did the Cleveland Browns. They shot it to James Winston. You know, always slinging the pill around, I mean, 497 yards. And also you got to shout out Jerry Judy coming back to Denver and sticking it in Sean Payton's phase and also the Denver fans like, Hey, I had this talent all along. I didn't have anybody throwing me the ball. I mean, 235 yards receiving in one game. I mean, that's top notch. People don't just do that. So shout out to Jerry Judy and James Winston. But most importantly, I would love to get a shout out to Sean Payton, Bowniks, Cortland Sutton, the offense, the defense. I think Denver is rolling right now. I think Sean needed his year to figure out what does everybody do well. I think he needed the beginning of the season to do that. And you're seeing Bowniks play some really good football, complimentary football. You're seeing Cortland step up as a one to make an incredible plays and just the overall team, the chemistry, shout out to Nick Benito, double digit shacks and a pick six, which hasn't been done since Vons. So shout out to my Denver Broncos and what they're doing right now and looking like we're going to get back in the playoffs. That's incredible to see. Beni, this game, first of all, any game James plays in now, I feel like is the most entertaining game of the week or top three. But also, what I was reminded of watching the Broncos especially, but both of these teams, there's a lot of NFL teams and coaches and the way that they strategize to try to win games, where they're just scratching and clawing and they have to be perfect to try to win. What I appreciated about specifically watching Sean Payton last night was it was a reminder that this is a race to see who can score more points, right? You know what I mean? You don't want to give up almost 500 yards passing. And that's part of the reason it turns into a shootout. But don't you think there's something about the way a good offensive or a great offensive coach coaches can instill some confidence in what your team is and what you believe you can do when it's a reminder of like, all right, they scored like we're going to go back and score the next drive. Absolutely. And you saw the way that Sean was calling place. I mean, he was calling shots last night. He wasn't calling conservative, dink and dunk place. He was like, he saw the matchups that they had. He saw to get bow out on the move. And that's what he did. And those are types of plays he called. I mean, the 93 yard touchdown to Marvin Mims. I mean, number one, that's a ballsy throw, but that's definitely something Sean told him in the in the huddle or probably in his helmet, like, hey, we're going to get a Tampa two safety. Marvin is going to beat the linebacker with his speed, put this ball on the road. So he saw those types of plays and even the couple of interceptions that bow through, he was going to take chances. And I know that was probably talked about all week and emphasized all week for Sean, like, hey, we're going to have chances, throw the ball up and let our players go make a play. You know what the play that really stood out to me too. That's a really good point, by the way, like kind of the pre play coaching of it. But when they were backed up against the goal line, first Bonix avoids the sack on a free runner and darts it to get another down. And then they called like a rollout to the right, where he had a couple different options, like one short one where he could have maybe thrown it deep and it would have gone out of bounds and complete or been caught on the sidelines. And he held the ball waited for Sutton to come across the field through the zone into that pocket and then still moving to his right throws an accurate dart right into his chest for like a 20 yard game. I mean, Benny, that's, you know, you could count on one hand maybe or two hands, I guess, the amount of quarterbacks in the league who can make a throw like that, especially under that kind of pressure. I mean, America saw it last night. Yeah, Denver's got their player, Denver's got their quarterback now. And I think the Denver fan base is now feels comfortable in terms of now going forward, you have your QB, you have your head coach and now how will you surround them both with players moving forward and in the draft and in free agency. So it's awesome to see. And I know everybody's excited here in Colorado. Yeah, I was going to bring it up later. But this jumps me right into a topic I want to do a dress. The coach of the year running is kind of crowded right now, in my opinion. Like you have Sean Denver, you have Mike Tomlin in Pittsburgh. I mean, guys incredible. You know, you can't argue with, of course, the results of Andy Reed finding wins Sean McDermott, 10 and two Buffalo Bills. But you look on the other side and obviously Dan Campbell, I mean, how do you not put Dan Campbell at the lead? And even Benny, I know that the coordinators are doing a lot of work here, but it would be wrong to not include Nick Siriani with the Eagles rolling and the fact that they have game planned exactly how to win every week. I don't know if anybody jumps out to you there right now. We obviously have several weeks to go. But to me, this is as impressive of a kind of a top five or six, whatever you want to call it, of coach of the year candidates, as I've seen in the wild. Yeah, I would say right now, the coaches that really stick out to me are Mike Tomlin and Sean Payton. I mean, what Mike Tomlin is doing, and he is actually one of my shout out list as well, starting off the season 4 and 2 with Justin Fields, playing gritty football, winning with the defense, get it done, make a ballsy move to put Russell Wilson in, who hasn't played well in a couple of years. And now he's playing super complimentary football and some of the best football of his career. So Mike Tomlin, for sure, sticks out in a tough division, already getting wins against Baltimore, already getting wins against Cincinnati. I mean, and then no losing seasons. I mean, that's incredible. I mean, I just I don't understand how he is just that good. I mean, with really average quarterback play, I'm not talking about this year, but the previous years, I mean quarterbacks that I only threw seven touchdowns in the season. And he was still able to get those teams to the playoffs and have a winning record. So shout out to Mike Tomlin and then Sean Payton, for sure. I mean, just with all the dead money, the ability not to really sign any free agents and the type of free agency that you want to have in the cap hits that we have here in Denver. I mean, for him to have this rookie quarterback playing this well and a chance to be in the playoffs, in the wild card, in this, in our division is incredible with the Chargers, the Broncos and Chiefs. So is this the best division in football right now? I mean, might seem like it in terms of just the competition. Obviously you have the AFC North and then you also have the the NFC North, I believe as well. But those are the two that really stick out Sean Payton and Mike Tomlin. Tomlin has had an argument in about every other year at least to have won the coach of the year award. It really is remarkable. I saw you repost that stat that he hasn't had a losing season in what 15 or 16 years as an NFL. Every year as a coach is crazy astounding. I mean, he had duck hodges playing like half a season at quarterback the one year, he's still one eight and eight or nine and seven. Benny, this brings me to I have kind of a bold take here. I'm not sure if you agree with me or not, but you you know, I've been pretty high on the Steelers. And I know I dropped them out of my top five last year, a couple weeks ago, when they had a disappointing loss. So maybe I'm a fair weather predictor here. But I feel like if they were to face the Chiefs in the playoffs, I think that the Steelers would beat the Chiefs. What do you think of that? I think absolutely not. Why? Number one, they're going to have to go to Kansas City. Number two, the different defensive looks and pressure that they bring. I don't think Russell Wilson can escape that. Number three, I just, I mean, I'm not going to bat against Patrick Holmes in a single game elimination. And I'm not going to bet against Andy Reed with a week to prepare for just one team. So as tough as they are, and as great as they are in TJ Watt, we'll probably have a field day on Kansas City's offensive line. Whatever they have to do to beat that team, they'll do it. So I just don't see people going into Arrowhead for a single game elimination and in beating the Chiefs. You so I know you just mentioned it, but you trust that Chiefs offensive line for four quarters against the Steelers defensive line? No, I trust Patrick Mahomes and Andy Reed though. I don't trust the offense line, but I trust them. And I mean, I've seen Patrick Mahomes go to the Super Bowl with that type of offensive line. I mean, they end up losing to the Bucks, but I've seen it happen. Right, right. You have, you have evidence of it. Why this, this Steelers team, such a good combination of toughness and efficiency. And I know that he's not going to make big plays against everybody. I agree with you there. The Wilson kind of moon ball deep shots. You know, he doesn't even sucks. So right, we also have to like, they played the Giants. They played the Jets Cincinnati. Yeah, more like the low scoring game than somebody else, but like against the Brown against against good teams. He's played average ball at Russell Wilson ass. That's true. That's true. It's really bad games. He's played really well, but like Cincinnati's, I mean, where are they the only team in NFL history to have seven losses or eight losses where they score 30 points? Like that really isn't an insane stat. Yeah. So, yeah, no, to your point to Russell, I mean, like a lot of quarterbacks, but you can almost put Derek Carr in this conversation to a guy who like, if you give him, you know, 10 seconds or, you know, seven seconds, he's going to carve you up. But if you're in his face in two and a half seconds, he's going to make mistakes and not score a lot of points, right? 100%. Yeah, no, that's fair. That's fair. Well, when the Steelers take them down in Arrowhead, I'll be looking for my flowers in the play. The most impressive win of the weekend has to be the Eagles beating the Ravens in Baltimore and kind of stamping themselves as a Super Bowl contenders. I think we already knew they were in that conversation. You know, this probably continues our shout outs portion and, you know, Zagwan is a staple of this, but just curious from your vantage point, just what stood out to you, what was most impressive, any concerns on on either side, whether it's the Ravens and how they handled it, but just want your breakdown of Eagles 24 Ravens 19. I think it's just hard to account for Zagwan in terms of the passing game, the running game, but I think the shout out this week for the Eagles would be go to the offensive line and what they are doing up front. And I mean, Jalen Hertz getting in the end zone, I believe twice or once with the Tush push, but I think their offensive line is really what's going to separate them in the long run. It's the fact that they can run the ball, they can run the ball with a quarterback. And then if you give them man to man, because you have to load the box, they have two incredible threats on the outside. Now Devonta Smith didn't play, but you still have AJ Brown, you still got Goddard, but their offensive line is really, you know, where my shout out goes to for that game. I'm worried about Baltimore, they're definitely not in my top five anymore losing to Pittsburgh and then losing to, and then losing to Philly. It just, you know, I don't know what's up with Lamar in terms of him not using his legs anymore. I think it's incredible that he's been passing a lot from the pocket, but what are you trying to prove in terms of saying in the pocket? If you want to win a Super Bowl, you have to use your legs and that's, that's totally fine. Like get over it, get over your ego. If there's nothing there, run the ball because there's nobody who can keep up with you at the linebacker level or at the defensive line level. And then Justin Tucker, it's, it's scary watching him kick right now. And he's, you know, arguably one of the best kickers in NFL history. And right now it looks like he has the yips out there in terms of it's 50/50 if he's going to make the field goal or extra point right now, which is kind of scary, especially you because you're these games in the playoffs are going to be close. So he's got to get it figured out. And, you know, if it keeps happening for the next couple of weeks, I think you, you, you got to bring somebody else. Yeah, that really is something to see. Baltimore, I believe the stat is they have five losses by a total of 22 points and Tucker's misses have cost them 22 points this season. So you can see the difference that it will make and could make come playoff time in the postseason. I think that's a great point by you about the Eagles offensive line. My shout out specifically there, one thing that has really occurred to me over the last five weeks or so before the season, I thought it was being overlooked that the Eagles had lost Jason Kelsey and Fletcher Cox. Everybody was talking about it on both sides of the ball. But it's one thing to say, you know, we're going to try to replace them. We have guys that we've selected, we've guys that we drafted or signed to do it. It's another thing for Howie Roseman to have obviously seen that Kelsey was coming down the end of his career and he drafts Cam Jurgens. And he plays guard before moving back to his natural position of center to replace Kelsey. And then you have Jalen Carter, the first round pick at the tackle. Obviously, they took Jordan Davis as well, but he hasn't panned out the same way. But both defensive and offensive lines for the Eagles is now back to the dominant level as far as how they handle other teams. I'm not saying Jurgens is Kelsey, but I just think a shout out goes to Howie Roseman for that move. And then also, Jurgens, if you watch Benny, they are able to run the same concepts and get the center upfield and use his athleticism on those second level runs. The same way Kelsey, like they literally drafted the same traits to not have to change the way the offense functions to help Jalen hurts and say, Juan Barkley. And so I really think that's just a masterful job of it's a combination of team building player development and coaching that I think is, you don't often see it come together like that. Yeah, it's an incredible job by them, an incredible job by him, complimentary pieces for the quarterback, complimentary pieces for the new free agent running back that you brought in that just is unworldly talent. And then, you know, everything is supporting one another. So, yeah, Howie, he just knows how to construct a roster. And he's been doing it for years now. Yeah. And this brings me to another, another bold take I have, though. I feel like I'm not the only one who's who's saying this after watching the Eagles impressive win over the Ravens. If the Eagles were to overtake the Lions for home field and Detroit has to come to Philadelphia rather than host the NFC championship game if it gets to that point, do you agree with me that you like the Eagles in the outdoor game versus the Lions in the indoor game? 1000%. Playing indoors, 12 out of 16, 12 out of 17 games or whatever Detroit will play is crazy. But yeah, if they have to go and play outside, especially in a cold Philly game, it'll be tough. But at the end of the day, I actually, well, I don't think it will be that crazy because Detroit's offensive line is nasty. And they have a two headed backfield in terms of Montgomery who played in Chicago and then Jamar Gibbs, just super dynamic. And I'm not going to just count out Ben Johns just because they're going to play in the cold. I think Jared Groff might struggle a little bit, but at the end of the day, in those cold games, that's when you lean on the offensive line in the run game. And I know Detroit, you know, you got Zaitler out there who was in New York. He knows how to play in the cold, Penny Sewell doesn't care about anything. So they got an incredible audience of mine. So I'm not going to just disrespect Detroit like that. Got you. I don't want to ignore either. You mentioned it, but Jalen hurts. You know, his stats don't show it. But you mentioned how he played the right way. I felt like he made the right decision with the ball all game. You know, there was one play. He handed it to Saquan where he should have kept it and would have had almost a free run, you know, for 25 yards. Other than that, though, even the way, I know it seems like he's dealing with something with his ankle, but I actually like when he runs how he slides, protects himself. You know, that third down pass to Dallas Goddard was key when they needed it. He made he made the play. And I just feel like what, you know, obviously, when you have a defense playing like that, you can, you can handle the game a different way offensively. You don't have to open it up, but, you know, shout out to him as well and Philly there really well done by Jalen hurts. The Buffalo Bills, I mean, absolutely spanking the Niners here, Benny, and announcing themselves as a team. I don't think anybody really is interested in playing. Definitely seem to be on the short list as far as Josh out MVP as well as Buffalo Bills Super Bowl contender. But what's what stood out to you more in this game? The way the bills attacked or the way the Niners who are banged up kind of completely folded. I don't think any one of those things really stood out to me. I just think that the Niners just aren't where they used to be Fred Borners playing with a fraction is ankle, Trent Williams is out, Christian McCaffrey has been hurt all year. Party's dealing with the shoulder. Deebos Daniels, not the same. Brandon Iyuk's not there. George Kittle's getting a little bit older. I think their window is pretty much closing and they're going to have to reboot. That's what really stood out to me in terms of that game. Josh Allen's playing incredible. Buffalo's playing incredible. Well, we've seen this movie with the Buffalo Bills before. We thought just because they lost Stefan Diggs that they weren't going to be a good team. I think it actually makes them more dangerous because now you don't have to really focus on, hey, I got to get this guy ball or else he's going to be pissed. I think quarterbacks play better when they don't have that type of pressure on them from a receiver who's always complaining about getting the rock. So nothing really surprises me about what Buffalo is doing. Josh Allen's playing incredible. I don't think he's the MVP because I think Stequan is just doing so much more and adds so much more value to the team. Buffalo's been good the last five years. So Josh Allen hasn't played well enough to beat Lamar Jackson or Patrick Mahomes out for the MVP. That doesn't mean he just automatically gets it this year. Stequan is the most valuable player to the Eagles. We can see it in terms of the record, in terms of how they play. Buffalo's been number one, number two seed every year. But Josh Allen is at the end of the day. He's playing incredible. But none of this actually matters for Buffalo until they actually get to Super Bowl. So this is a great season for him, great for their fans, great for Josh as he continues to play well. But none of this actually matters anymore for him until he gets a Super Bowl and wins and he has to do it in the playoffs. And he's played well in the playoffs, but not well enough to get to the ultimate level. So that's what we're all waiting for. Yeah, I agree with you. Listen, everybody knows this is essentially the Stequan MVP podcast. We've been telling you, Benny's been telling you since week one. I agree with you, though. I think it's interesting seeing the NBC broadcast push Josh Allen as the favorite and also the odds, you know, in Vegas, still strongly favor Josh Allen. I think that if Sequan stays healthy, knock on wood and keeps this pace and the Eagles finish the season, I mean, they have Carolina Pittsburgh, Washington, Dallas, Giants. They could easily, they're definitely going to win. I think three of those games they could win four and they could win five. I think if they finish that strongly and he's coming close to or breaking the rushing record or even if he has 2000 yards, I don't know how you don't give it to him. So I'm right there with you. And that's a good point though. The Buffalo Bills and even their fans know this. It's just about what they do in January and as they hope in February. Benny, do the Vikings? The Vikings are 10 and two. They get out of this one by the skin of their teeth, 23, 22 over the Cardinals, but not that they haven't earned the 10 wins. Do they belong in the category when we do our power rankings and we talk about contenders? Like do they belong in the class of, you know, Chiefs, Bills, Eagles, Lions? Do they belong there or is it just that they're records there, but they're missing something? There are records there, but yeah, I think they are missing something. I think you're spot on. They don't have anybody on that team who really, Justin Jefferson scares you, but you also know that Sam Darnell needs to throw him the ball. So the connection between them doesn't necessarily scare you. Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business. Shopify is there to help you grow. Shopify helps you sell everywhere from their all-in-one e-commerce platform to their in-person POS system. Shopify's got you covered. Shopify helps you turn browsers into buyers with the Internet's best converting checkout, 36% better on average compared to other leading commerce platforms and sell more with less effort thanks to Shopify Magic, your AI-powered all-star. What I love about Shopify is how no matter how big you want to grow, Shopify gives you everything you need to take control and take your business to the next level. Shopify powers 10% of all e-commerce in the U.S. and Shopify's the global force behind Allbirds, Rothy's and Brooklynan and millions of other entrepreneurs of every size across 175 countries. Plus, Shopify's award-winning help is there to support your success every step of the way. Because businesses that grow, grow with Shopify. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com/Westwood1. All lowercase. Go to Shopify.com/Westwood1 now to grow your business. No matter what stage you're in, Shopify.com/Westwood1. This episode is brought to you by progressive insurance, fiscally responsible, financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to progressive and save hundreds. Because progressive offers discounts for paying in full, owning a home, and more. Plus, you can count on their great customer service to help you when you need it. So your dollar goes a long way. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save on car insurance. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. In terms of that. So, I mean, they got Aaron Jones. I mean, they got some incredible weapons, but 23, 22, winning some close games. The defense. Yeah, it's just something about their team, their overall aura that I think that they don't really scare anybody. So, they're a good team, though. I think we'll learn more about them over these next four weeks. Yeah, they're 10 and 2. So, yeah, we'll learn over these next four to five weeks. We'll learn exactly who they are because they'll have some divisional games, they'll have some tough games, and then we'll be able to tell more. But right now, I don't think they scare anybody in the NFC or AFC in terms of like, hey, we, besides Justin Jefferson, who really scares you on that team, not saying that they're not great players. But like I said, you have to rely on Sam Darnold being on point to get those other people to ball. Right. It needs to be Aaron Jones for them. That's what it was earlier in the season. We'll see if he can kind of get back to the level he was early year. What I saw in that game too, Benny, was the Cardinals defensive line was all over Donald. I think, you know, without Darrasaw, who's out for the year, they're left tackle, it looks to me like they can't protect him very well. And you called my attention to this more last week when we were discussing Daniel Jones going to Minnesota, maybe how he could fit into the offense. And you were talking about like the timing-based route concepts and offense and passing game of Kevin O'Connell. And I think what I see is it's like if Darnold's on schedule, he's going to get the ball out to Jefferson for those catch and runs, and Jefferson's going to be open. But between with the protection not being great and maybe the connection from Darnold to Jefferson, not being like 100%, it's almost like if there's anything off there at all, it gets off schedule and nothing really happens. That's kind of how it looks like to me. But yeah, 10-2 is 10-2, but still impressive that they were able to get a win when they didn't play their best. But interestingly enough, Benny, it reminds me why Kirk Cousins was a good fit there, because if there's one thing he does well, it's put his back foot down and get the ball out on time. And I'm watching him in Atlanta. Benny, I don't know what to make of this. I'm sitting there saying, "You got to go to Michael Pennics Jr. in the second quarter, in the third quarter, in the fourth quarter." Something is wrong with Cousins and the way he's seeing the field. His arm didn't look the same. I know you're a big Kirk guy, Michigan State, Spartans. And he's played a ton of great football in the league. So I've been wanting to ask you about this game, this situation, where do you go if you're the Falcons after? I mean, that was a very winnable game where your defense actually finally played well. I think Kirk has one of these little blips every year, where he has a weird game and where you question like, "Hey, what's going on here?" I feel like he had one in Minnesota every year, one in Washington every year, which was just a weird game. And then he comes back out and then he gives you the youth like that. He loves you to sleep and then he comes out and then he's on fire. We'll see where it goes, but I also think that what we saw or what we're seeing from Aaron Rodgers and also Kirk, two people who are coming off of Achilles injury at the quarterback position is actually a lot tougher than not necessarily that we thought, but you know, they're not young guys. You know, I don't know, Kirk's 36, Aaron Rodgers is 41. So these guys later on in their career Achilles injuries planned on turf. What's the recovery like? I think it's just getting tough. Yeah, Kirk's arm is looking a little. It's, you know, he just looks older. So yeah, they're different. Like there were throws there where he made the wrong read, let's say, but normal Kirk cousin still gets the ball there and it gets batted down or something like that. That one picked six out to the right. Didn't look like him. I mean, that was a strange, strange flow, a throw hanging in the air for too long. Did I skip over any shout outs that you had that you wanted to dish out? Brock Bowers. Shout out to Brock Bowers. Credible tied in, drafted in the first round, but really living up to the hype. And he's the only thing that's exciting right now in Vegas, but I mean, 10 catches, 142 a touchdown. Just playing an incredible ball. I mean, he, I mean, he is going to be an incredible player. And I think Brock said it on TV is that like he's going to be way better than me or his staff will be way better than his. I'm not going to go that far because Brock had an incredible career, but Brock Bowers, man, what he's doing at the tight end position and what he's doing for Vegas is incredible. So that was my last shout out. And I think I said a little bit of a shout out to Russell Wilson too, in terms of the ball that he's playing, complimentary football, getting the ball out on time. And he really has those players in the Steelers locker room really believe him. I was talking with one of my friends about it last night and he was like, man, I know his two years sucked in Denver, but he's this guy's a Steelers fan. He was like, we'll take this all day. Yeah, and that's, you know, I mentioned Arthur Smith before, but there's something going on there with the way that Smith and Wilson are communicating and kind of like Benny, if there's anything I've noticed around football, you know, being years around it now, it's if you can, as a coach and as a player, come to some sort of agreement or understanding of here's what I do well. And here's what I don't do as well. So let's either conceal or avoid or protect you from the weaknesses and let's accentuate the strengths. And I'm, I'm sure the weakness conversation is not always a direct conversation, but definitely the ability to accentuate a player's talents and not focus on what they can't do. Like that's what the best coaches do. Am I right? 100% 100% Last thing I wanted to get your, your take on was, what do you think all these fights that happened over Thanksgiving weekend, we go to college with Ohio State Michigan, all over college football, really, with rivalry weekend. And then Jags Houston with the Aziz al-Shahir hit, curious what you thought of that hit on Trevor Lawrence, as well, he gets suspended three games. But just, you know, an explosive weekend that really seemed to cross the line in a lot of ways. Want to know what you think of that? Have you ever been a part of something like that being on the field and seeing some sort of melee develop, just wondering your perspective on all that? I don't really care about the college piece of it, you know, the plant in the flag that's super disrespectful. If you're going to do something super disrespectful, then be ready to fight. So Michigan fans don't complain or don't say they got to learn how to lose because you're getting ready to plant the flag in the middle of their field. Well, if you're going to do that, you've got to be ready to fight. And I think that goes for every other team. So I'm not just going to come into your house and then rub dirt all over your carpet. And then be like, Hey, Pat, like, well, it just is what it is. Like, no, better be ready for some action. So, you know, Michigan's gotten into it with Michigan State plenty of times and Michigan State got the blame for this. Now they want to blame Ohio State. They never want to take the accountability, but whatever. I don't really care. I don't really care about any of the college football things. I mean, it's a lot of emotion in the game. And then you definitely care about Michigan. You definitely care. Not to be honest, not really, because I mean, it's not something that they ever did. Like, I just think that I mean, I think it started with that game and then it just trickled down to all the other ones. So we were just like, you know, because they have the early game. And then I think it just went to the other ones. But I actually don't care. I think college sports is way different than when I played it. So the loyalty to school, I will always have loyalty to Michigan State. But these players don't actually care about the schools and universities they play for care about the money first. So I'll say that dirty hit by the player from Houston, I mean, in the broad reserve to happen. And I mean, yeah, as you just know, you know that the quarterback is sliding. So, and he's been in question if it hits all year. So three games, he got three games, I was just spending them for the rest of the year. If I was a commissioner, that's how I would have saw it. There's no room and no place for that. And then, yeah, I was a part of the a key to lead Michael Crabtree in Denver. So, you know, got into a brawl about with them in Oakland. And when a key to gain again. Yeah, the you know, it was crazy. So, yeah, I mean, but that was like any of these that was a real we're going to fight on the field and we're going to fight in the locker room type of deal, you know, and I don't think nobody in the NFL is like that. And, you know, that was just, yeah, that was crazy. So, wait, walk me, walk me through it though. What are your emotions? Because, you know, everybody's watching it sit, you know, playing Monday morning quarterback, this guy should be doing this, this guy shouldn't be doing that. I mean, how chaotic and emotional is it when your teammate is involved in something like that and you have to defend them and then it spills over? Well, we have on the same uniform. So, it's, I mean, it's emotional, but like, you're not going to let your teammate get jumped by somebody. And if you see those guys running over, you have to put your helmet on, strap your helmet on and be ready and go over there. And I'm not, you know, I'm not the first one to fight, but I will defend my teammates and I will defend people who I love and respect who are the same colors as me. So, but yeah, it's crazy. It's a lot of emotion. I think they both got kicked out. This is like the first two minutes of the game. So, you know, this was going to happen. It was like one of those hockey fights where you just like, all right, I'm going to see you next play. And then they just throw the gloves down. Literally right there, the Raiders got the ball on the offense. Second play of the game, they get into a fight on our sideline. And, you know, we have to play a whole game after that. Everybody knew it was coming, right? Yeah. Yeah. We knew it in warmups. They were perhaps you don't even think you warm up. I think he would just watch the best warm up and looking at the halter. So, did, um, remind me, I don't remember, did anything happen after the game, like in the tunnels or anything? Or did he, was there like security had to prevent people? Do you see Sterling Shepard, uh, Shep like screaming at one of the Panthers and they were holding the Panther back from like charging the Buccaneers locker room after that game? That was something else. Young Shep's always always mixing it up. Young Shep is always mixing it up. Benny, great reminiscing there. Um, great conversation as always. Can't believe we're 13 weeks into this season. Uh, but I'm thankful as always for you being on the talking ball with Pat Leonard podcast and sharing all your knowledge. Really appreciate it. Appreciate Pat. That was first down with Benny Fowler here on the talking ball with Pat Leonard podcast. A great recap of all the apps action, the highs, the lows, the shout outs, the standouts, the MVP race, and the wild fights going around college and NFL football on Thanksgiving weekend. The wildest thing obviously is if you're not signed up already for my bookie to bet on football because I told you already, I'll tell you again, 15 and one against the spread in week 13 of this football season three and oh on Thanksgiving, eight and one in my last nine Pat's picks. You have to tell these picks now and here's how you do it. As a first time depositor, click on the link in all my social media profiles. Use the promo code, Pat's picks, P-A-T-S P-I-C-K-S and you will get a 100% match on that first deposit of $50 or more all the way up to $1,000 plus a $10 casino chip. So that's a $3,000 up to $1,000 in your account to bet with my bookie bet anything anytime anywhere and use that Pat's picks promo code before that deal expires. Also brought to you here by Boom Chaga Mushroom SuperDrink, natural extract loaded with anti-inflammatory immune boosting antioxidants and heart healthy compounds. You can easily pour this natural liquid supplement into any of your favorite drinks. 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Go to a state98.com/talkingball to get an exclusive offer for 80% off your first order. See you next time on Talking Ball with Pat Leonard. If you're a maintenance supervisor for a commercial property, you've had to deal with everything from leaky faucets to flickering light bulbs. But nothing's worse than an ancient boiler that's lived in the building since the day it was built. 50 years ago, it's enough to make anyone lose their cool. That's where Granger comes in. With industrial grade products and dependable fast delivery, Granger can help with any challenge. From worn out components to everyday necessities, call clickgranger.com or just stop by. Ranger for the ones who get it done. Hey everybody, I'm Trevor Sykama, host of the PFF NFL show here to tell you what you can find on all of our shows throughout the week on Mondays. We have the great release show where myself and Paul Washman break down every single game that you just saw in the NFL. On Tuesdays, we have the quarterback breakdown with Seth Galina on Wednesdays. We've got the rookie review with John Ledgerd and the preview for the upcoming week in the NFL. So make sure you are subscribed to the PFF NFL show wherever you get your podcast. If you liked the show, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe. It really does help the show to grow. Thank you for listening. [BLANK_AUDIO]