AMDG: A Jesuit Podcast

Why This Is The Most Important Jesuit Text You've Never Heard Of with Fr. Bart Geger, SJ

You’ve heard of the Spiritual Exercises. You’ve probably heard of Ignatius’ autobiography. But have you heard of the Constitutions of the Society of Jesus? Unless you’re a Jesuit, you probably haven’t. It’s a series of documents often dismissed as too legalistic, necessary but not relevant to daily life. But that’s not true—and our guest today, Fr. Bart Geger, SJ, professor at the Boston College’s school of theology and ministry, will make that case. The Constitutions are foundational to the Ignatian tradition, to how Jesuits understand their mission: that being the service of the greater glory of God. The Constitutions, then, are important for all of us who stand in this Ignatian legacy, for all of us who also hope to serve God’s greater glory. The Constitutions touch on the formation of Jesuits specifically, but also point each of us toward spiritual wisdom for our own unique vocation. Why talk about the Constitutions today? Fr. Bart has recently completed work on a new edition, which provides all of us with an opportunity to revisit this important text. As Fr. Bart writes in the introduction: “Knowledge of the Constitutions is…necessary in order to understand recurring themes and controversies in the Society’s history. Far more importantly, however, the book is vital to correctly interpret the spiritual doctrine of Ignatius himself, especially his ideas about how to discern God’s will, and the particular ideals and virtues that he desired—and still desires—for all who embrace the principle and foundation upon which all his doctrine stands.” In short, if we believe the riches of Ignatian spirituality are vital and relevant for today’s world, then we’d do well to better understand the institutional framework with which Ignatius entrusted this legacy to be lived out. If you'd like to get a copy of Fr. Bart's new edition or learn more about the project, head over to the Institute of Jesuit Sources: https://jesuitsources.bc.edu/the-constitutions-of-the-society-of-jesus-a-critical-edition-with-the-complementary-norms-paperback/

Duration:: 49m
Broadcast on:: 04 Dec 2024
Audio Format:: other

From the Jesuit Media Lab, this is AMDG, and I'm Eric Clayton. You've heard of this spiritual exercises. You've probably heard of Ignatius' autobiography, but have you heard the constitutions of the Society of Jesus? Unless you're a Jesuit, you probably haven't. It's a series of documents often dismissed as too legalistic, necessary but not relevant to daily life. That though is simply not true, and our guest today, Father Bart Geiger, professor at the Boston College School of Theology and Ministry, will make that case. The constitutions in fact are foundational to the Ignatian tradition, to how Jesuits understand their mission, that of course being the service of the greater glory of God. The constitutions then are important for all of us who stand in this Ignatian legacy, for all of us who also hope to serve God's greater glory. The constitutions touch on the formation of Jesuits specifically, but also point each of us towards spiritual wisdom for our own unique vocation. So why talk about the constitutions today? Well, Father Bart has recently completed work on a new edition, which provides all of us with an opportunity to revisit this important text. As Father Bart writes in the introduction, "Knowledge of the constitutions is necessary in order to understand recurring themes and controversies in the society's history." Far more importantly, however, the book is vital to correctly interpret the spiritual doctrine of Ignatius himself, especially his ideas about how to discern God's will and the particular ideals and virtues he desired and still desires for all who embrace the principle and foundation upon which all his doctrine stands. In short, if we believe the riches of Ignatian spirituality are vital and relevant for today's world, then we do well to better understand the institutional framework with which Ignatius entrusted this legacy to be lived out. I want to read Ignatius's own words from the preamble to the constitution to set the tone today. He writes, "Although God our Creator and Lord is the one who in his supreme wisdom and goodness must preserve, direct, and carry forward in his divine service this least society of Jesus, just as he dain to begin it. And although on our part what helps most toward this end must be more than any exterior constitution, the interior law of charity and love that the Holy Spirit writes and imprints upon our hearts. Nevertheless, since the gentle disposition of divine providence requires cooperation from his creatures, and since to the vicar of Christ our Lord has ordered this, and since the examples given by the saints and reason itself teach us so in our Lord, we think it necessary. That constitutions be written to aid us to proceed better in conformity with our institute along the path of divine service on which we have entered." It's a mouthful, and you get a sense of Ignatius's frame of mind as he began this project. And then you also get a sense of how important he knew it would be, how essential to the success and long-term thriving of the society of Jesus. And so with these words in mind, let us now turn to Father Bart Geiger. Father Bart Geiger, welcome back to AMDG, we're so glad you're back with us today. Thank you very much for having me, Eric, it's good to be back. Yeah, and you know whenever you come, you come back with some excellent new book usually into the kind of mining the depths of Ignatian spirituality and the history of the society, and today is no different today, you are here with a new addition of the constitutions of the society of Jesus. And it is quite a book, congratulations, on its completion. Thank you very much. So let's start with an easy question, at least I hope it's an easy question. What is this? What do we mean by the constitutions? What makes up this document and why was it originally written? Oh good, a softball question, softball pitch, I like that. Pizza man, it is like 500 pages later, I hope. Well you know, as you know, of course, many countries have written documents called their constitutions, which regulates how they operate internally and what their values are. And the same applies to religious orders in the Catholic Church, like Benedictines, Franciscans, Carmelites, they all have written legislation, which articulates what they are trying to accomplish as a religious order. Their internal operations, how they function, and how they relate to the wider Church. And the Society of Jesus or the Jesuits, we are no different, Saint Ignatius spent about 10 years writing a rather large book, which is now called the constitutions of the Society of Jesus, in which he outlines all those very things for the society. And what we call the Jesuit constitutions today is actually a collection of four different documents. So the constitutions proper in the strict sense of the word, which is composed of 10 parts. And then we have something called the general examine, which is a little brochure that Ignatius wrote in 1546. The Society of Jesus was such a novel religious order in so many ways, that a lot of young men were applying to the Society with very mistaken ideas about what we were about, ideas that were more consistent with monastic or mendicant life. And so what Ignatius did was he wrote this little brochure to give to candidates, and then also to the Jesuits who interview them, and in that general examine, Ignatius really outlines what makes the Society distinctive, and its distinctive priorities and values and things like that. And then Ignatius wrote his own commentary on both of those texts. He wrote a separate commentary on that general examine, helping Jesuits to understand his meaning a little bit better, breaking it open. And he wrote a commentary on the constitutions in the strict sense. And as far as I know, that's kind of a novel in the history of religious orders. I'm not aware of any founder like Francis or Dominic who did something similar, write a commentary on their own legislation. But anyway, the early Society decided to just join all four of these documents together and call it the constitutions as a whole. You've already kind of touched on the fact that this document or series of documents is novel, even by the standards of its own time, and in your introduction, you lay out a number of ways, which I found interesting, Ignatius' own contemporaries doubted why he was writing it, like why put it down, why not trust the Holy Spirit? As you said, most religious orders often use these documents to describe the kind of work they did. And this document instead describes the formation of the Jesuit who is going to do the work. It's written in Spanish originally, not Latin, which was novel. So all of these things were very unique to Ignatius and to the Jesuits. So I'm wondering if you can kind of continue with this line of thought you've already begun and help us to situate ourselves in the historical moment and context in which Ignatius and Polanco, who was Polanco, you have to tell us that too, were writing. And what was the kind of intellectual theological backdrop against which they were bringing this text into being? And one more question, we're taking notes. What does Thomas Aquinas have to do with it all? Well, in a way, as a shout out to the Dominicans, Thomas Aquinas, I would argue, is actually very, very central to what Ignatius is trying to do. And so what St. Thomas Aquinas said was, he wrote this down, I think it's in the suma if I remember correctly, that a particular religious order in the church is more or less ideal, more or less noble, you might say, depending upon how exalted is the task that it's setting for itself, how exalted, how noble is the goal that it's trying to attain, and how effectively does it help the church as a whole, you might say. And then St. Thomas said, and then the etiality of a particular religious order also depends upon if they have this goal in sight, then how well do all of their internal operations, how well are they configured toward accomplishing that particular goal? In other words, is their attention divided? Are they trying to do too much, or are they really focused in everything that they do on attaining this particular goal? Okay. So I cannot prove it, but I am morally certain that Ignatius was very aware of this teaching of St. Thomas, because the constitutions of the Jesuits are clearly all about that idea. Ignatius makes clear that the end of the society is to serve the greater glory of God, and he made it very clear in his letters that he believed there was no greater end that any individual or any group in the church could seek than that, the greater glory of God. And then he said, absolutely everything in the constitutions, how we choose our men, how we form our men, how we mission our men, everything is pointed and decided on the basis of what's going to help the Jesuit order as such to attain that goal. The analogy I like to use is one of my favorite writers is Edgar Allan Poe. And he said that the great Baltimore guy, he was, and he actually was a friend of the Jesuits. Believe it or not. Most years of his life, he used to socialize with the Jesuits and play cards with them at Fordham University, right? And there's a great quote. He wrote a letter to a friend and he said, you have to love the Jesuits. They're cultured gentlemen. They drink, they smoke, they play cards, and they never talk about religion, right? But what Edgar Allan Poe said, as you know, he was the master of the short story. And he said the key to writing a good story is to know exactly how you want your story to end, what impact do you want it to have on your reader. And then you write your story backwards, so to speak, because the kind of characters you create, their words, their action, their environment, everything should be pointed toward that final end, starting with a very first sentence, okay? In order to maximize that impact on your reader, when you read that final sentence of the story. And that's exactly what Ignatius is trying to do. Ignatius would have loved Poe, right? That was very much the same thing that he was trying to do here. That's really helpful. I mean, it points to, I think, vocation in a lot of ways, that idea of what are we going after? We're meant to love, serve God and God's people. That's the goal, that's the end goal, and so how do we get there? But to say a little bit more though about this historical moment, maybe you can unpack the character of Polanco for us and his role in the constitutions and in his friendship with Ignatius, and then talk to us about how this document was so different from other religious order documents of the time. Absolutely. Ignatius is a selected superior general in 1540, or 41, I think, if I remember correctly, and he's so busy right off the bat, right? Because the society is growing so fast, and he's fielding letters from all over Europe that he doesn't really have much time to work on the constitutions. He manages to work out the exam, and I mentioned earlier, and to write down some rough ideas for the constitutions, but he just can't get to it. And then Polanco was a man of Jewish descent originally. His family was come from an old Jewish family. He's Catholic, obviously. He joins the Society of Jesus. He had been a secretary in the papal curia for many years, right? And so he's a professional latinist, and he's very, very well versed in church history, tradition, theology, and canon law, all these different things. So when he joins the Society, he is the godsend that Ignatius is looking for. And so Ignatius realizes this is the man for the job, and so Polanco becomes Ignatius' secretary in 1546, and will remain that for the next 10 years until Ignatius dies. And then Polanco remained the secretary for the next two or three superior generals. He almost became elected superior general himself. And so what happened was Ignatius tells Polanco, "I want you to collect all the different rules and constitutions of other religious orders that came before us, you know, rule of Saint Benedict, rule of Francis, all that stuff. Collect it all together. Let's talk about the best bits that we can take out of each one, the best practices and all that kind of thing. And then add those to our constitutions, but in a way that's faithful to our unique mission. The great thing about Polanco was that he was a pack rat. He threw absolutely nothing away, which is a godsend for historians today. So for example, Polanco just wrote pages and pages of questions for Ignatius, because you remember Ignatius is in the next office answering letters and everything. He doesn't have time all the time to talk to Polanco directly. So Pol-- He's always on his e-mail, right? Ignatius is constantly sent an e-mail. Exactly. Ignatius is on his e-mail. It's exactly right. And so whenever Polanco's got a question, "Well, how should we handle this or how should we do this," or, you know, that kind of a thing, he just wrote it down and then slipped these pages under Ignatius's door. When Ignatius had time, he would write his answers and then give the pages back to Polanco. And we have all those notes, those things that Polanco wrote, right? And so which would comprise a book in itself. And so, you know, just to give you one of my favorite stories is that I think even most Jesuits don't realize how controversial the name Society of Jesus was. For Ignatius to name his religious order that. I mean, can you imagine today if a new religious order in the church said, "We're going to call ourselves the body of Christ or the communion of saints." I think all the other Catholics would be like, "Well, wait a minute. We're all the body of Christ." And that's exactly how people reacted to when Ignatius says, "I want to name my group the Society of Jesus." They all say, "Well, wait a minute, we're all the Society of Jesus," right? And even many Jesuits, Ignatius's companions were very, very skittish about using that name. And so many of them, like Xavier and Faber and the others, when they would sign their letters, not Peter Faber of the Society of Jesus, but Peter Faber of the Society of the Holy Name of Jesus, right? And so there was such controversy that Palanko writes a question to Ignatius three times, three separate notes, slips it under his door. He says, "Tell me once and for all are we the Society of Jesus or the Society of the Holy Name of Jesus," right? And then Ignatius slips a note under Palanko's door without a doubt the Society of Jesus, right? And he wrote that response in 1550, 10 years after the Society was founded, which gives you an idea of how controversial it was in those first 10 years. So to go back to your original question, Palanko was just, for his story, Palanko himself was a historian and wrote a six-volume history of the early Society called the Chronicon based on all the letters that he was receiving from Jesuits around the world and things like that. And the Institute where I work here in Boston College has actually produced, with the help of Ken Baker, a Jesuit in California, a complete English translation of that history, which we're going to make available soon. All right. There we go, yeah. Plug in the next book already. You're good, dude. Yeah, I am always struck by that initial moment in the Society, right? And even what you're saying earlier, Ignatius gives out this examine to folks that are joining to say like, "Hey, this is different. This is a specific kind of new kind of religious order that is out in the world. We're not in the monastery," and the Constitution's is a way of forming and providing that scaffolding. I want to go by something else you've said, because you emphasize this repeatedly in the text here, the greater glory of God, right? That's the mission, that's what we're about. And I think anyone who is tangentially connected to a Jesuit institution has probably heard that expression, right? The greater glory of God, MDG, it gets kind of bandied about. And yet it's a profound and essential significance in the text, and certainly as the kind of the north star of the Society. So I'm wondering is, have you, as you've kind of prayed through this text for all these years now in your work, has it taken on new significance for you, or is there a new insight that you feel like we, as folks that care deeply about this mission, we should know? That is, for me, my favorite question to answer, because I think this is where the dog lies buried, right here, as they say, okay? That I was trained, I entered the Jesuit order in 1990. I was ordained a priest in 2001. I received an absolutely fantastic formation in Jesuit history and spirituality from some deeply intelligent and holy Jesuits. Not once, not once do I remember anyway, anyone ever talking about what Ignatius meant by the greater glory of God, okay? I was kind of left with a vague impression that it's simply a rhetorical expression meant to get people excited, like, you know, go and set the world on fire or something like that, right? And so when I went to Spain, this would have been 2005, if I remember correctly, to work on my dissertation. It was only then when I was doing my research that I realized, oh, wait a minute, Ignatius meant something very, very specific by that. That's not simply rhetoric, okay? That Ignatius wanted that, the greater glory of God, to be the specific criterion by which Jesuits and others who follow Ignatius as spirituality, to discern God's will. So in other words, when you have two or more good options that you can be doing for God, which one do you think is going to enable you to serve that greater glory of God? And for it, it does not mean people misunderstand Ignatius in a utilitarian sense to mean, you know, the greatest good for the greatest number of people. That's not what Ignatius means. And again, this is coming from Thomas Aquinas, what Ignatius is teaching, right? As Aquinas said, that when we talk about them, because in the constitutions, Ignatius defines the greater glory of God as the more universal good, the more universal good. And that's a phrase that comes from Aristotle and Thomas. And what that means is the more universal good means what is it that helps a community as such, a community to attain the end for which it is created? So for example, Thomas uses this example. Imagine a ship that is sailing across the ocean to go to a far port where there's all kinds of gold and stuff to be gained. And the ship is a metaphor for the church, right? And of course, the port is heaven, right? And so on the ship, in order for the ship to function properly, not everyone can have the same roles. You can only have one captain, right? You got to have a cook, you got to have people who mend the sails and everything else, you got to have your middle officers, and you have to have your guys who swab the deck and even clean out the toilets, throw that into the ocean, that kind of a thing. And so not every role is equally prestigious or equally sexy, but every role is absolutely necessary for the ship to get to where it's going to go, right? And so the more universal good in this context would mean making choices which ensures that the ship, the community of sailors as such on that ship gets to the far end. So for example, if, you know, I might have the choice between giving 20 men on that ship a T-bone stake, which they haven't had in, you know, six months on the ocean, right? Or I can teach the captain how to better read his maps, all right? Well, in that kind of a choice, clearly what's going to help the ship as such get to the end is teaching the captain how to read those maps. So I'm just focusing on one man, not 20, but it's going to have payoff for everybody on the ship. Does that make sense? And so Ignatius, to use a simple example, Ignatius would say, if you have a choice between teaching a class on auto mechanics or teaching a class on communication skills, all else being equal, teaching communication skills is going to serve a more universal good because you use auto mechanics in specific situations on an occasional basis, but you use communication skills every day. And in the long run, it's going to have a much bigger impact on the community, right? So that's what Ignatius means by this is where part seven of the constitutions. I would argue that's the one part of the constitutions that all, you know, lay collaborators working with a society and all Jesuits should read because it's precisely there where Ignatius gives all these examples of what he means by the greater glory of God. And he says, if you have a choice between A and B, choose this, C and D choose this. And so I would argue that he makes it very clear. That's really helpful. And I think it, when taken in that context, the scope of Jesuit ministry and mission today, the scope, you know, what Jesuits do in the classroom, you know, comes into a different focus. I wonder though you kind of already began to answer this question, but this document can feel very internally focused, right? And it is. It's about the formation of Jesuits. But as you just said, you know, this mission serves the greater glory of God. And we're all kind of in that boat, you know, not to continue your metaphor, but so same more about why you would make a pitch to lay collaborators, you know, folks that are working at Jesuit institutions, universities, what have you, why should, why should we be familiar with this document? Right. Well, to be honest, right off the bat, I'm not saying that the book is a riveting read. Okay. Even what? Even for Jesuits, right? I mean, it's a, it's a book of rules and policies that guide the society. It certainly has some inspirational language in there, to be sure, very inspirational passages. But but on the whole, it's a, it's a book of legislation, right? And so that being said, what I argue is that if Jesuits and lay colleagues read the book or at least key sections of the book, to understand why Ignatius is making the decisions that he is, the criteria that he's using, and to see how he directs everything toward helping the society of Jesus as a community, as a whole, attain that greater glory of God, then that has real implications. We can, you know, we can disregard the specifics of what Ignatius ordered because a lot of that's obsolete, obviously, the content of what he's requiring. But the rationale behind it speaks to us in every generation. And again, I would say nowhere is this kind of more clear than in part seven, when he talks about choosing missions, but then also parts one and two where Ignatius talks about the criteria that we use to accept men into the society and the criteria that we use to dismiss them. You know, if it's for their greater good and ours, you know, that kind of a thing. I like to tell people that Ignatius' spirituality rightly understood is a spirituality of making difficult decisions, because if you're serious that you have two or more good things that you can be doing for God, Ignatius says over and over again, you can't do everything. If you try to do everything, the fruits of your work are going to be very deluded, you're going to be strung out and exhausted, you're not going to be any good to anybody. And so to really be effective in your service of God, you've got to choose one thing and then have the courage to let the other good things go as beautiful as they are. You know, that's why I love that poem, Gerard Manley Hopkins, you know, he says, "Each mortal thing does one thing and the same deals out that being endures each one dwells myself. It speaks in spells, crying, what I do is me for that I came." You know. Yeah. I were just showing off. I couldn't reciting poetry suddenly, all right. I couldn't resist. I'm a geek, I admit. If you get me going, I will start quoting the Simpsons in Star Trek II. Oh, man. Well, I mean, let's get going then. All right. I'll be the next podcast in your next book. I think I'm thinking about Star Trek. I think that's really helpful though and counter-cultural in a lot of ways to say like, hey, what's that one thing, what's that one thing that you should be doing to keep the shit moving forward? Because I think we're so tempted to do it all, all the time, and to find that again, I mean, just personally, as one of those Ignatian collaborators, right, I, you know, looking at this document and seeing so much resonance in my own experience of Ignatian spirituality and Ignatian tradition, you know, and even what you're saying now, this idea of, hey, like, what's that one thing God is inviting you to really throw yourself into? It's very consoling. I think to hear that. Well, if I may give an example of what you mean, because I when I talk to the faculties and staff of our Jesuit high schools, what you just said is a point that I hammer over and over again in many of our high schools with the best of intentions. We often say things to students like, you'll know that you have the school spirit when you get involved in 10 different things, right? All these different clubs and sports and everything else. Be active, be engaged, so on, so on. But the reality is, and I've heard this from faculty and administrators so often, so many of our students are just burned out because they're trying to do too much, they're exhausted, their studies are suffering, you know, that kind of a thing, depressed. And if Ignatius were here, again, I am morally certain that what he would say to our high school staffs is, tell them that they can't do everything. Tell them to choose maybe one thing, maybe two, in addition to their studies, and then have the courage to let the other good things go. And yeah, it will be, in one sense, a little sad, a little disappointing that you can't do everything. But I would argue that's how we teach them to be responsible adults, right? To make those wise decisions. To teach them to be, you know, free time, not having something to do once in a while is a good thing. It doesn't mean you're lazy, right? So, you know, I remember when I was a kid, my dad made me choose when I was in high school. He says, I'll let you play football, and if you want to play football, I'll drive you down to practice every day, you know, the kind of a thing. Or if you want a car, then you're going to have to get a job while you're in high school and pay for the insurance and stuff like that. And I said, why can't I do both? And he says, you can't, you'll burn yourself out. So choose one. And I resented him for making me choose. But now I'm very glad that he did. What did you choose? I went with a car, of course. Wow. Okay. All right. Freedom. I guess that's why you're a Jesuit and not a football player now, right? You're not in the NFL. Even then, I had the self-knowledge to realize I would have been a disaster playing football. Okay. Look at that discernment. In real time. Yeah. No, I mean, it's interesting, though, because even thinking about raising my kids, you know, like, I want, I think it's a balance because I want them to be exposed to a lot so they can make that good decision and then go deep, you know, but how do you balance that? I mean, even, even I imagine a lot of those, you know, well-intentioned high school folks that you're referencing, right? You want to expose people so they can find what God has invited them to, but then say, now release, now let go of the rest and dive deep and, and that's a, that's a question of commitment, right? It's a question of, of, of embracing our necessary limitations, and it's all really hard stuff. Like it's easy for us to say and it's really hard to, to do, but I think it's good. Again, I think it's really, I don't see cool as the wrong word, but it's, but it's, it's prescient that it's in this little very legalistic document that that spirit is, is, is, is there. I want to dive a little bit more before I let you go into some more of this history because I think it's really important. We talked about the beginning of the constitutions and, and kind of the context that they came out of, but then the second Vatican Council was a really important moment for all religious orders in returning to their source material. So maybe you can talk about that and also how that brought the constitutions back to the fore and a lot of other Ignatian documents, I know, absolutely. So as you said, the second Vatican Council and even the, the popes shortly before the council were concerned that religious orders in general had kind of lost touch with the original reason why they were founded in the first place, that all the different religious orders were beginning to look more or less the same, more or less homogenous. And in order to respond most effectively to the needs of the church, in all its great diversity that these need religious orders needed to go back to their original sources. Okay. In a way though, that was faithfully updated for the present. The Jesuits in general, the great majority of Jesuits had never read the autobiography of Ignatius. The great majority had never read the constitutions and all these other early documents. And on the one hand, that might seem strange to us, but as I like to tell my students, you know, the US Constitution is absolutely fundamental to our lives as Americans, but how many of us actually read it, right? We just kind of take it for granted. And it's the same thing with the Jesuits, right? We've been taking that text for granted. The other thing too was that before Vatican II, there was that many, many Catholics had been taught to believe that the church never changes, which is not true, of course, but they very clearly were given that message. And so as a result, many Jesuits and many other religious, you know, Franciscans or Dominicans were like, well, why bother reading our historical documents? Everything that we do now has been exactly what we were doing 500 years ago, right? And so in that sense, people simply didn't see a need to read the text. And so what the Jesuits did in the 1970s, the first two books that we really dug in to were the spiritual exercises, of course, and then the autobiography of Ignatius. And now what I would argue, however, is that as much good as we accomplished by breaking open those two books, we've been more or less exclusively focused on those books for the last 70 years since the council. And what we really need to start looking at now is the constitutions and Ignatius' letters. We have almost 7,000 letters written by Ignatius and his secretaries to Jesuits and others around the world, which really show quite clearly how Ignatius takes his spirituality and his values and principles, and where the rubber meets the road, or you put them in a concrete practice. And so we still have a long way to go, I would argue, in terms of breaking open those rich sources. So let me pull on that thread some more. And there's a great quote you write in the introduction here. And I know this is one of your-- is "Hobby Horse" the right description. Oh yes. You can get-- so you write, quote, it is one thing for writers to acknowledge candidly that their interpretations of the society's carerism are not what Ignatius had in mind and then defend them as legitimate and necessary for the present day. It is another thing for writers to substantiate their interpretations by suggesting that Ignatius just believed something that he did not. If Ignatius is still worth citing, then he is worth citing accurately, end quote. That last bit, I think, is the "Hobby Horse" part, right? But I mean, I don't disagree. And so I wonder if you can talk a little bit about-- because this is kind of a theme that is woven through your introduction here of this text. How do you balance and navigate the tension between historical, experiential, and rhetorical interpretations of Ignatius' work while keeping-- you know, you're kind of always keeping a mind on the pastoral and the academic. Okay. Very good. Just to give readers an idea of what we're talking about here, it has become almost standard in the last 70 years for Jesuits and lay writers who are writing about Ignatius' spirituality. To talk about Ignatian discernment in terms of deepest desires. Once I identify my deepest desire, that's God's will for me. Or once I discover that, which makes me my most authentic self, version of myself or, you know, something along those lines, that that's God's will for me. And they are often very surprised to learn. That's the way I was taught. That's the way that I was formed in the Jesuits. And so I kind of took it for granted. You know, I never really bothered to study the Ignatian text because I just assumed that the men who are forming me were speaking accurately on that. And again, when I went to do my dissertation and really kind of engaged Ignatius seriously for the first time, I'm like, oh my goodness, first of all, Ignatius never said anything like that, never. And not only did he never say it, but it's completely contrary to what he actually believed. Right? Ignatius is going to give us a very, very different model of discernment. Ignatius himself believed in this is an accord with the tradition. This is a classic principle of the spiritual life that you can be happy doing anything. You can be happy being married. You can be happy being a priest. You can be happy being single. And once you realize that that happiness is a choice that you make, then the only question you need to worry about is where am I going to serve God's greater glory in light of my gifts and limitations and everything else. As soon as you start saying, I'm going to make my decision on the basis of what makes me feel happy or fulfilled, you immediately skew in a very serious way what Ignatius had in mind. And so the short answer to your question is I don't know in the sense of to what extent can we update Ignatius authentically for the present without losing the essence of what he's about? I don't know the answer to that question, but what I do know is that Jesuits have not yet had that conversation because I would argue that Jesuits in general are not aware of what Ignatius himself actually believed about discernment. And so we can't talk about how to update them authentically for the present until we have that basis, that kind of a thing. And that's what I'm hoping that my book will contribute in that sense to start a conversation not ended. Yeah, I mean, I wonder, I'm not an academic or a Jesuit, but I wonder if some of the things can exist at the same time, like if we want to get in touch with our desires and believing that God is working through them, but then recognizing that in that work, we're letting go of things and we don't always get it right. And yet even when we quote unquote the certain correctly or arrive in a place that is not where we perhaps wanted to be, God is still here. I always think like, no matter what the choice, no matter where we are, God is always on the other side of it, like ushering us along and there's still God's greater glory to be served. Yeah, I think for me, I think about that kind of authentic, that deeper desire as a, again, as a North Star, but I think you're right, like are we ready to let go of it and realize sometimes I think we forget the privilege that some of us enjoy to like pursue our greatest desires when others aren't able to do that, or that sometimes we are going to fall short. I don't know. Is that right or am I totally in the wrong direction here? Well, right or wrong, of course, depends on, you know, Jesuits and others will disagree about how to, like I said, like you just said, kind of update Ignatian spirituality in that sense. I can tell you what Ignatius would have said. And for Ignatius in the spiritual exercises, he's all about the cultivation of magnanimity. It's not about discovering what we desire, but about knowing what it is that we should desire and then cultivating a more heartfelt, passionate desire in that regard. So for example, you know, people all the time, quote Ignatius is saying, there's a line in the exercises where he says, I will ask God for what I want and desire, all right? He uses that line a couple times. And so people say, oh, okay, well, Ignatius is saying I should discover what it is that I want, but that's a selective reading of the exercises because immediately after Ignatius says that, I will ask God for one I desire, Ignatius tells you what it is that you should be desiring. Okay. You know, part of it is, you know, today in the early 21st century, we have this idea that our desires make us who we are, our unique desires, whatever it might be, give me my unique identity and that they were implanted by God. And I mean, you can certainly make that argument, but that's a very modern way of thinking that when Ignatius was alive, it's not our desires that make us who we are. We're called to embrace, we know an embrace objective truth, and when we know an embrace objective truth, then our distinctiveness comes out, our uniqueness will spring out of that initial embrace. So yeah, I'm not sure where I want to go with that. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's really helpful. And I think it's, yeah, I have a lot more questions on this, but I'll let you go here. Let me, let's have one more question. Just kind of from your own prayer of, through this, through this text, I wonder what has, has struck you most, you know, in this, you know, most recent past, or maybe even as you're thinking about how to bring this, the lessons of this text into dialogue with the needs of the moment, but what is, what is the fruit of your prayer? I would say two things. First of all, as you know, the Jesuit order has been very controversial for 500 years. Surely their love us or hate us, you know, you know, today obviously there are many Catholics and others who think we're the greatest things in sliced bread. And there's others who think we're the Antichrist and the worst thing that ever happened to the church. Right. And I think what most people don't realize is that those attitudes go all the way back to the beginning, even when Ignatius was alive, all right, people were calling Ignatius theologians like Melchior Cano, this very famous Dominican theologian, was calling the Jesuits the Antichrist from the pulpit, right? And what I would argue is we really need to study that history because what I would argue is that people are reacting to very real aspects of the Jesuit mission and our priorities and things. There's a reason why we upset people or gain the devotion of people and it all goes back to our fundamental values. You know, every religious founder, Francis of Assisi, Dominic, Theresa of Avila, Mother Theresa, all of them are going to have their critics if they remain faithful to their own way of proceeding. If they don't try to do everything but stick with that one thing, right? And they have, you know, Mother Theresa had her big critics, right? And so in that sense, I would argue that the great untapped doorway and the understanding who Jesuits are about is taking that those critiques of the society seriously. So that's one thing. The second thing is this, for me personally, Ignatius has given me through the constitutions such a richer and more profound understanding of the virtue of humility. Ignatius meant by humility and what the tradition means by it. And when we hear that word "humility" today, we tend to think of that I'm consistently called to minimize myself as much as possible, you know, in front of others, play down my gifts, my, you know, that kind of thing. That's not what Ignatius meant by it or the tradition. What the tradition means is humility means simply being honest about yourself, both your limitations in your sins, but also your gifts and your strengths and whatever unique missions or calls that you might have gotten, right? And when you do both in the right context and for the right reason, then you're being truly humble. And the reason why this is so important to Ignatius is if Jesuits are serious that we're going to try to embrace those missions that make the biggest impact on the church, by its very nature, that is going to make Jesuits famous, right? We are going to get the attention of people if we do that for good or real, right? And what Ignatius says in the Constitution is don't pull back from those missions just because you're afraid of being famous or you're afraid of being the center of attention. The most important thing is that you choose something precisely for the sake of it being for the greater glory of God. And then if God wants to make you famous, if he wants people to start calling you a saint, then guess what? That's what he wants for you. Okay. And I think if we really play that out, it's very powerful. So that's your new goal, right, is to be called a saint. Should we get that? I'll put that in the show and it's a people know how to address it. What are my favorite lines is, you know, the play a man for all seasons, where St. Thomas Moore is in prison. He refuses to deny people supremacy, right? So the king is going to have him executed. And his daughter Meg comes into his cell to try to talk her dad into signing the oath doing what the king wants. And she uses an ingenious argument against her father. She says, father, I know the real reason why you're not signing this oath. You know that if you're a martyr, people are going to call you a great saint in the future, right? So if you are really humble, you would sign the oath and come back home with us very ingenious. And in the play, St. Thomas Moore says to his daughter, sometimes we need to do the right thing, even at the risk of being heroes, right? And that I would argue in a nutshell is what Ignatian spirituality and the constitutions is all about. Nice. Great ending. Great line to end on for the bar. It's a pleasure, I will work and folks get this copy of the Constitution is not out there, so inspired to keep their door open with it. That's right. If you, on the website, if you go to the Institute for Jesuit Sources at Boston College, you would be able to buy the new edition of the Constitution's there. So. Awesome. And we'll put a link to that in the notes. My friend, always, always so informative to talk to you. Thank you for being with us today. Eric, thank you so much. I do appreciate it. A.M.D.G. is a production of the Jesuit Media Lab, a project of the Jesuit Conference of Canada and the United States in Washington D.C. This episode was edited by me, Eric Clayton. Our theme music is by Kevin Lasky. The Jesuit conference communications team is Marcus Bleich, Michael Lasky, Megan Leepch, Becky Cindallar, and me, Eric Clayton. Back with the Jesuits online at Jesuits.org, on X at Jesuit news, on Instagram at @WeareTheJesuits, and on Facebook at facebook.com/jesuits. You can also sign up for our weekly email series. Now to discern this by visiting Jesuits.org/weekly. The Jesuit Media Lab offers courses and resources at the intersection of Ignatian spirituality and creativity. If you're a writer, podcaster, filmmaker, visual artist, or other creator, check out our offerings at JesuitMediaLab.org. If you or someone you know might be called to discern a vocation to the Jesuits, connect with a Jesuit vocation promoter at beajesuit.org. Drop us an email with questions or comments at media@jesuits.org. You can subscribe to the show when iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And as Senate nations of Loyola, may or may not have said, "Go and set the world on fire." [MUSIC] You