Rebecca and Tori chat Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered. What can we say? We really like this episode.
Wallowing in the Shallows
WITS chats Buffy the Vampire Slayer S2E16
(upbeat music) - Welcome to "Wallowing in the Shallows," the podcast that skirts the perilous drop off of a deep dive into television and movies. We are academic nerds aspiring to become TV and movie geeks. There are no spoiler cards in the shallows, so listen at your own risk. This week, join us for a while and a Buffy the Vampire Slayer, season two, rewatch. (upbeat music) - Hey, hello peeps. Welcome to "Wallowing in the Shallows," the story. - And this is Rebecca. And today we are talking about Buffy the Vampire Slayer, season two, episode 16, bewitched, bothered, and bewildered. - Yes, that's like, I put the hallway scene. I know we're gonna get to it. I love the hallway scene. - You had, the listeners don't know this, but you had given me a heads up that you really liked this episode, agreed. This was so fun. And it's kind of one of those things that, oh my gosh, all of these women fawning over a man that I could get all bothered about it. This was a spell, and it's Xander, and it's just all pure gold. I had no problems with it. I really thought it was just very funny. Yeah, yeah, I think they did a great job. And I meant to look at the list to see where Rolling Stone marked this. - Oh my gosh, yes, oh my gosh. I had forgotten everything about the show. - Well, it's been a long time since we forgot it. - Really, yes. The listeners may not feel the same way, but for us, it has been a while. - It has been a while. But they've only got it ranked at number 67. - Wow. Of course, they're looking the whole season, and we haven't gone through all that yet. I would have put it higher, but that's just because I enjoy it a lot. It's, it makes me laugh. - Yeah, this was a really, this really was a good one. - Yeah, yeah. And we know my big concern is, am I entertained? - Yes. - And it, are you entertained? - I am. - Yes, Russell, we're entertained. - So anyways, all right. Well, I got a little synopsis here from IMDB. Oh, yes, thank you for bringing me back on track. Go for it. - Well, I got a soft track right away, okay. Here we go. Nice, insecure, Zander is a natural, passionate, yet loveless relationship with snooty, selfish Cordelia has never felt right. But when her friends find out and decide that's the end of her popular status, she dumps him without hesitation. Ironically, without getting back in their favor, being dumped on Valentine's Day after he gave her a swell, heart-shaped necklace, is too much abuse, even for Zander's low self-esteem. So when he notices Amy is taking up her mother's witchcraft, he blackmails her into putting his scourner under a love spell. So he can take his revenge by dumping her just as painfully. Alas, the novices in Epley executed spell works on every girl except Cordelia. And that means dangerous irrationality. Meanwhile, vampire Spike, Dussella, and especially spiteful Angeles have their own unconventional ideas about celebrating Valentine's Day, the end. - You know what, I think I have to disagree with the characterization of Zander's and Cordelia's relationship as purely lust-based. I think they kind of discover in this episode that they kind of think maybe that's it, but that maybe there really are some real feelings. - I, of course Cordelia lets the social thing blinder but by the end and Zander at the beginning is sort of like, well, you know, maybe it's just blah, blah, blah, blah, but he does, he, you know, he, I just, I mean, I'm not saying it's true love and they should be together forever and ever, but I just am saying, I think it's a little more than just lust. - I don't know where I land on that. I'm gonna have to ponder it for a little while. Yeah, yeah, yeah. T-B-J, T-B-J, well, before I forget, the director is James Conner (laughs) and the writer is Marty Naxon. And I believe I mentioned her, you may not remember since it's been so long since we recorded a Buffy. I mentioned that I was looking forward to Marty Naxon episodes and Jane Espenson, who we won't see her hear from, I think, until next season. But, so yeah, this, I think this is the first one she did on her own, but I could be wrong about that. I'd have to really do some more research. I'm just talking off, you know, top of my head here. - Nice. - Yeah, but, okay. What do you want to talk about first? - Okay, oh, also funny that they called it a heart-shaped, it looked like a locket, to me. - Yeah, I thought it was a locket, too. - We never saw if there was anything inside of it. - Yeah. - Buffy was like, you think she'll know what it is? I think that was sort of like a heartless comment. Not, not that she wouldn't understand what a locket was, but if she doesn't have a heart, I don't know. - Yeah. - That's what I picked up. - Yeah, I thought it was a locket, too, 'cause it was pretty big. - Yeah, yeah. - Not that they're big chunky necklaces, but they're usually not just on a chain like that. - And she really, well, here's another. So, to my, okay, to gather evidence that there's a little more than just lust here. One, right before she breaks up with him, she says the locket is very pretty, which, you know, it's something Xander picked out. I don't know, you know, and then, even after they broke up, she proceeds to wear it, and in, so clearly she's not over, you know, she didn't mean nothing to him, and she's like, "Oh, it's in my locket," and then secretly removes it from her neck. - Right. - So, anyway, I'm just gonna put that in the favor of feelings a little deeper. - Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that for sure, because I mentioned that, too, that, "Oh, she's really wearing it." She really does care for him. But, I mean, this is an episode where we see some growth in Cordelia, and it's a little depth, right? It's not just all about the popularity, so. - Yes, yes, yeah, I had said, I had said, "Wow, how the mighty have fallen. "Queen Bee has been dethroned." You know, it just happened, so quickly there. And, you know, it was a little bit brave of Cordelia to actually put this out in the open. - Yeah, yeah. - Because she knew. She knew Xander was not in the right cast, if you will. And Amy, when I just first saw her, I was like, "She's familiar." And I was like, "I wasn't her mom, the witch." And I was kind of like, "Did she go to another school "with her dad or blah, blah, blah, "'cause the dad kind of showed up for me?" Anyway, Amy's back. Amy is back and up to witchcraft while her mom is stuck in the trophy. - Yeah, it's kind of funny. I mean, that would be weird, don't you think? - Yeah, of your mom in a trophy. - Yeah, and I think that would be weird. - Five days a week when you're at school. - Yes, yes, I think it would be really, really strange. - How you doing, mom? Let me tell you, let me bring you up to date on what's happened. - And people look at her like she's crazy 'cause she's talking to this case of trophies. - Yeah. And then one of the many things I had forgotten was all the tension between calendar and Buffy. I was like, "Hey, I went down there." And I was like, "Okay, I do remember that calendar's family had cursed Angel." And I couldn't remember exactly what had gone down. Like, did she kidnap Buffy or try to kill Buffy or what there was something going on there beyond just knowing the stuff about Angel that she didn't tell him? - That's pretty much what it was. She didn't try to kill Buffy or anything like that, but she had kept this big secret, right? And if Buffy and Angel had known, they might not have did what they did. - Made him, made him ecstatically happy. - Yes, yes, yes. So I think that's what's going on there. - And I was this, I had not forgot. I hate Hell Angel. I do not like anything about, I don't like Howie Treat Spike. I don't like Howie Treat Spuffy. I just, oh, I'm over it. I'm over it with Angel. I don't know how long this lasts. I don't think it lasts forever, but I just really don't like it. That was my least favorite part of the episode. - The Angela stuff? - Exactly. - Yeah, bad Angel. - There wasn't much of it though. There was, you know, there just was not a whole lot of it. So it didn't taint the episode much for me. - All right, did you think it was weird and I'm talking about the cold opening and going back to the necklace? - Yes. - Did you think it was weird that Zander shows this necklace that he bought for Cordelia? And yet, and he shows it to Buffy, right? And he still makes this illusion to the fact when they're talking about Zander and Cordelia's relationship that. - Here the only other person I'm interested in is unavailable. - And I'm like, what? Huh? Why would you do that when you clearly like Cordelia? I mean, you got her this necklace, it's Valentine's Day. And yet you're still gonna tell Buffy that you're still kind of interested in her? - Totally agreed. And then we have it later, right? - Yes. - When she's like possessed. So this goes in the column against real feelings for Cordelia is that yes, it feels a little like Cordelia is still like a substitute that if Buffy really had come to him with real feelings, Cordelia would get dropped because it does still seem, and yeah, I thought that was totally not, it was not cool at all. And I jotted down still holding a candle for Buffy. So no, that was not great. I totally support him getting her opinion on it as another woman. So that's cool. You know, hey, what do you think? Is this Gloria had a stressed out? But yeah, yeah, the only other person I'm interested in is wink, wink, not, not available, not cool. - Maybe, I don't know, I'm not even gonna, maybe it, I don't know, it was weird, so. - Yeah. - I couldn't figure out why in this episode, they kept dressing Cordelia like she was a 30 year old bank teller or something like that. - Okay, I think I totally know what you're talking about when she's hiding the locket. - Well, even in the opening scene when we see her, like after the credits roll and we see her coming up to the school, I just thought they really, I don't know, custom design that for this episode, no. - I didn't remember that one. I did find the locket hiding one quite non Cordelia, but I thought her dress was lovely to the Valentine's. - Oh yes, yes, that would have, that was the only big plus of what Cordelia was wearing in this episode, that dress was pretty, pretty kick ass. - Yeah. - I mean, I thought even harmony was dressed better for the most part, but that cadre of mean girls led by harmony, come on. - What is wrong with people? I just, this is, I just cannot imagine, even when I was stupid teenager being like that. Of course, I never had, I never had quite the social clap, maybe the power would have gone to my head, I don't know. - Could be, I didn't have social clout either, so. - But even turning against your own, you know? I mean, I don't know, it just was pretty ugly. - Yeah, hmm. I was just thinking back to that episode in season one with the Invisible Girl. - Yes. - And Cordelia's talking about, you know, what it's like to be popular. - Yes. - And that it can be lonely and things like that. And I don't know, this is kind of almost a continuation of that a little bit, you know? Like the difficulties of being popular. - You gotta maintain that status and talk about surface relationships. I mean, we're talking about Sander and Cordelia. Well, clearly Cordelia's friendships, quote unquote, are pretty whisper thin. - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, and I could figure out, this gets back to home makeup wardrobe hair thing. I'm expanding a little bit from wardrobe now. What was with the one girl with the 1950s hair? - Oh my gosh, oh my gosh, I'm trying to find my line. How funny was that? She comes on to Sander, right? - Yeah, yeah. - She absolutely just stood out to me. We saw her again briefly a little later. - Yeah, she's in the fray. - But the hair wasn't white as out of control. But oh, that was hysterical. I was just trying, I don't think I had anything too pithy, but I'm too pithy, but oh my gosh, I absolutely thought the same thing. So I will just concur what was with, oh yeah, I said, this is what I wrote down. Where did that girl's hair come from? The 50s? - Yeah, exactly. I was just like, wow, that's like the hair you saw on almost every girl in a store in the show in the 1950s. If they were a teenager, right? I was just like, wow, that's really, really bad. Bad, bad, bad choice. - Yes, I mean, maybe, you know, when I was in high school, we would have sock hops like they did in the 50s and you would be encouraged to wear something like from the 1950s, 'cause most of us are mothers, teenagers in the 1950s and they might still have stuff, but that would have been like, the only time you would do something like that to your hair. It was very Olivia Newton-John in Greece, 100%. - Say Wendy. - Yeah, yeah, that's what it was. Anyways, that's a little bit of a tangent, but. - Oh, but a very, a very important one. - And Buffy was scarred out. Early on in the episode, I mean, like the first two big scenes, I'm like, what is with those damn scarves? - Well, one was almost like a rot. I mean, unless it has Ms. Marvel powers. - Yeah. - Then you don't need the scar, like that. - Yeah, yeah. And it looked like a real hazard. You take a trip and fall and that thing sticks somewhere. You're doing it, you're in trouble. Did you, after the first scene with Angel giving Drew literally a heart? - Right. - When that black box with the black bow was delivered to Buffy's place, I was like, oh my God. Oh my God, what is in the box? Were you at all surprised? Well, you're gonna have to think back to the first time I saw the show, but I was surprised that it was just roses. Now, I know, it said the soon in there. So that was horrific and frightening, but I was just sure there was gonna be something in there that was not great. - I don't remember. - Okay. - I guess just from the shape of the box though, for me that screamed flowers? - Sure. - So I'm not sure I really thought anything about it. - I thought they would've been black. Maybe I would've been surprised. I was surprised when they were red, but I don't remember being surprised that they were flowers. - Yeah, I was like, oh God, black box, black box, bad news, I just like what's gonna be, oh, okay. - That's funny. - I mean, right after he just put a raw heart in front of Drew, yeah. And her reaction was over the top. - Oh my gosh, yeah, I also don't like this for Spike. I don't like this little, I mean, he's debilitated and Angel's cat around, and Angel doesn't care about Drew. Angel is just pure evil right now. So he's just loying with Spike and he's toying with Drew, as he has for eternity. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. I hate it. I hate everything about this, Angel State. - Mm-hmm, yeah, it's a reminder of the obsession he had with her and of course he's now obsessed with Buffy. And of course now, after the spell, all these girls or women are obsessed with Xander. So it's all about obsession. Which of course, I had to start singing the Animotion song. (laughs) You are an obsession. - Good song. - I won't sing anymore. I had no eyes, I can barely keep a tune in a bucket. - It was enough. - Yeah, definitely. - What did you think, sorry, back it up a little bit more. When Giles is in the hallway and of course the Scooby Gang's in the hallway. Charles is like. - Happy. - Ah, whoa. - I have a sentence even. - Oh, that's good. (laughs) - Yes. - Sometimes I just really enjoy the quips in this show. - Yes. - But sorry, still love the outs with Ms. Callender. - Hate it. - Did you mention that? - Okay, that's another thing I hate. Though, Callender Giles later with Callender Obsessed with Xander. - Yeah, it was so funny. - Gold. - Yes. - She does such a good job. - Yes. - That, it was almost my favorite flirtation with Xander. Because I hated the Willow one. I mean, it was good. But I was like, "Oh, this is sad." - Yeah. - And you just like Oz even more because he's up all night on the phone, you know, talking her through her obsession with Xander. And he doesn't know she's under a spell. - Right, right. - So it just puts more points in Oz's favor, but it just was such a cruel, I know it was a backfire and this was not at all intentional, but that is the one that kind of hurt to see. - Right, right, right. Which, you know, even Buffy kind of brings up later at the end. - Exactly. - So good for you, Buffy. - Yeah. - But I loved it when Oz just busts Xander. - Oh yeah. - It was perfect and he deserved it. - He did, he did, he did, he did. Oh, and Willow's so cute, right? When she and Amy and Buffy are talking in the classroom and Buffy's like, "Go ahead, you know what you want to." And she's like, "My boyfriend's in the band." - Awesome. - Yeah, yeah. So cute, she's so cute. And I love when she turns to Xander when they're in the bronze and she's like, "I think that we're groovy." - Ooh, yes, she's a lot more than a groovy. - Yes, she is. She is. - She's selling herself short there, but yes, that was a cute thing to say. So obviously I knew something was gonna go wrong with this spell. I just wasn't sure what it was. So my initial suspicion was he was going to get an item that he thought was Cordelia's that was actually somebody else's. So this, what ended up happening was way better, but that was my first suspicion was he was going to bring her something that was not, that was not Cordelia's. So somebody else was going to get obsessed with him. And then what happens next? We know that Cordelia does not seem to be enamored with him. - Right. - Which really overplayed his hand, right? Just immediately went right into the lion's den. - Right. - Do you kind of verify anything had worked first? - Right. - Yeah. - And then what do we have next? Is the first, it's Buffy, right? Is the first person to come on to him, Buffy? I think so. - Yes, yes. - Because then I was like, oh my gosh, because she touched the locket or because in the incantation, she said his love and Buffy was his true love. So that's kind of what I thought happened. She had touched the locket, so that was enough to be hers. And she was actually the one that Zander loved. But then that was, I wasn't right about that picture. Then it turns out it is everybody, it is all the women. And you know, I think some of the men too, because there were two looks at Zander's from the men. Some of them was disdain like you are my competition, but a few of them seemed to be checking him out. - I was looking for that, but I didn't notice it. I thought I saw some of that. - Well, it might have been because I didn't start looking for it right away. I was like, oh, wow, I should, I wonder if in the boys are looking at him that way. - And I think it only happened at the wind, he was sort of first sort of walking through the hall, where there was the slow Zander walk through the hall and everybody was looking him up and down. And that's when I thought I saw a few guys. Again, either looking him up and down with sort of admiration or disdain. - Yeah, I mean, they could have put it in there. I was reading something. And again, this was like well over a year ago, so I don't remember what I was reading, but evidently they were having some conversations. And I'm pretty sure it was in season two about making either Zander or Willow gay. And so they were kind of playing around with that a little bit, trying to figure out, number one, did they want to go that way? And if they did, who did they want to go that way with? So that might have been one of the ways they were kind of slowly introducing the idea to the audience. Again, this is a 90s stone, so there's still quite a bit of, I mean, there's still quite a bit of homophobia today, but it was much, much more open, right, back then. So yeah, maybe that's, I think one of the reasons I wanted to look, I'm like, oh, I wonder if it's in there, but I'm glad you said that you did see, think you saw some of that. - I thought I did, it was a pretty quick little bit, and obviously there weren't any guys chasing him down at the end, even there was a woman with a rolling pin for him. - I think that one of the lunch ladies from this school. - Oh, you know, lunch ladies go nowhere without their rolling pins. - Yeah, yeah. - Oh, and I just have to throw in there. - The fire axe makes it's way back into the plot once again. - I thought of you what I saw. - Oh, yeah, I'm glad you did, because I am just constantly on axe watch. I mean, it showed up at least two other times, I think. I just don't think they're in schools anymore. - Yeah, you think somebody would learn, you know, don't have the axe in the school. - Good God, yes. Oh, speaking of the locket, so in general, I do believe that a gift given is a gift given and you shouldn't return it. - Yeah. - But if you literally are handed the gift and you then break up with the person, I do think that she should have said it's beautiful, but I can't accept it, we have to break up, right? - Yes. - I did think it was pretty tasteless for, I mean, you know, so should see Andrew really be asking for it, he was just trying to get back at her, whatever, but I think she, or it was poor form to for her to take it in the first place. - Yeah, yeah, he, oh, the reason that he wanted it back was the object, that was the reason he wanted it back, not because he wanted it, that's right, but anyway, I think she should have given it. - Yeah, she should have accepted it, I think you were right there. - But then it wouldn't have been hers, so maybe she had to accept it in order for him to have been her object, yeah. - And then she wouldn't have been wearing it. - Yeah, yep, yep, yep. - So. - Mcguffin. - Yes, I wish I would have thought of that. I just try to remember that. Okay, anyways, I'm gonna back it up again. - Yes. - Did you, when Xander was kind of talking to Amy in that classroom about the spell that he wanted her to do, did you notice the, this isn't a trivia question or anything like that, but did you notice the, well it is, but not really, the poster behind Xander? - There was one poster, I recall one poster from sometime in the series, and it may have, sometime in the episode, and it may have been this one, there was one that was behind somebody that was like sitting in this chair or something, it was something about sitting in a wheelchair for 50 years or something, it wasn't anything about sitting or a wheelchair. - No. - Oh, okay, then it must have been a different. - No, it was about famous British authors. - Oh, totally saw that poster. That isn't the one, but thank you for that placement. And actually, I rewound it once to see, because I thought one of the men might have been in Shakespeare, but I honestly did not recognize any of them just from those pictures, and as you know, I know a lot of British authors. - Right, right. Well, maybe I don't know what they look like. - Well, Shakespeare was in there. - Okay. - I was pausing a lot and rewinding and pausing and rewinding and pausing and rewinding. So, yeah, one of them was Shakespeare, and then I, about 99% sure that the one that was next to Shakespeare was Charles Dickens. And then I think the one underneath Charles Dickens was Arthur Conan Doyle. And maybe, this one I'm really not sure about, I'm pretty sure about Arthur Conan Doyle, too. And I think next to Arthur Conan Doyle might have been Wordsworth. - Oh. - But that one, I'm maybe 20% sure. (laughs) And then there was another section underneath it, but I couldn't see that at all, so. - I'm so glad you did a deep dive on this because I only did a cursory glance, and it did make me think, I really need to know what some of these guys look like more. I mean, you see Shakespeare pictures all the time. - Mm-hmm. - But I can't conjure Charles Dickens in my mind. I have some kind of picture of Arthur Conan Doyle, but it may be sort of mixed with Sherlock Holmes. - Yeah, yeah, I agree, 'cause I was like, it's a little Sherlock Holmes-y, but, and that's why I went and I looked up, I'm like, yeah, I think that's Arthur Conan Doyle. - Okay. - But I was like, "Shakespeare has to be on that poster, I think." - Yeah, yeah, you can't put a Britlet poster up with that picture. - Yeah, exactly, exactly. - When are you wrote them all or not? - Yeah, at this point, does it really matter? - Agreed. - So, and we'll never know for sure, unless somebody events a freaking time machine and goes back, screws up all our history and. - Maybe it's already happened. - Bad things in suit, yeah. - Yeah, did you wonder, this episode made me wonder yet again, how are these students being able to work spells in the chem lab at school at night? - Excellent question. - Is there no security? Where's Snyder, why isn't Snyder around kicking him out? - Excellent question, these rooms are typically locked because they often have hazardous chemicals. - Yeah. - You don't just leave a chemistry lab open. - Exactly, exactly. - Any self-respecting chemistry teacher will tell you that. You all know who you are. (laughing) - Yeah, that was, I'm like, "Okay, again, lot of noise." (laughing) - Yeah. - But I did write down, I'm like, "Where's Snyder?" Or the night cleaning crew? - Mm-hmm. - Are you kids supposed to be here? - They don't even show them pick a lock or anything. - Nope, they're just there. - It's just like they can just walk in and do it. - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. - Oh my God, have we ever seen the giant beetle on "Zander's Wall" before? - No, I don't, have we seen, oh, we did see, did we see "Zander's?" Oh yeah, we saw it with the, oh, I hope I'm not. - Why, "Zander"? - Yeah, "The Patsy Cline Song." When he asked Buffy to the dance in season one episode 12, "Prophecy Girl"? - Well, it just really stood out to me this time. - I never noticed it. I don't think-- - I need him to not have that beetle on his wall. That looks a little too real. - I did notice the X-Men poster. - And I did notice the beetle. - Yeah. - But it was just kind of random. - And right next to your bed, I mean, in a hazy wakeup, I could go, whoa, what the, you know, no, no, I don't need to wake up to that. - Mm-hmm, yeah, that seems with Willow in the bed. I'm like, no, no, I know. - I know. - It's time for me to act, oh, go ahead. - No, no, no, go ahead. - It's time for me to act like a man and hide. (laughing) - Yes, I was doing the no thing with the library when he was talking to Buffy too. - Oh yeah. - You know, he, of course, being "Zander" has to smut it up and like, "Oh, would a lap dance be involved?" And she gives him that look and she's like, "Play your cards, right?" I'm like, "No." - Yeah. - Yeah. - You know, you would think "Zander" would go, "Yeah, something's wrong, but it's really, isn't until it's talking to Amy out in the hallway." And she says the exact same line that Buffy does, that it clicks into his brain that something's wrong in River City. - Yeah. - Oh, we got trouble. - What do we sure do? (laughing) - And then I did, it was interesting 'cause I was like, how was Cordelia not affected? And then we find out the working hypothesis is because since it was her item, she was the only one that was shielded from the spell. - Yeah. - Oh, and speaking of-- - Way to go, Amy. - Yeah, exactly. But all the more powerful, you know, is like, instead of one person, it's like every other female ever. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And I did really like when Giles was like, "Are you really the spoolish, you know, this much of a fool to do this?" He's like, "Oh no, I'm twice the fool it takes to do something like this." - I'm twice the fool it takes to do something like this. (laughing) - He has one of his self-aware moments. - Yeah. - Yeah, it was great. - Yeah. - I love the music that they use for Zander, that jaunty violin music. - Yes. - It becomes Zander's theme. And so whenever he's, we've got Zander hijinks, we'll get that song or that melody or whatever you call it. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Nice. - Do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do. - Did you notice that not once, but twice in this episode, when Zander is trying to hide from people and sort of block them out, that he blocks from the wrong side of the door. - Yes, yes. - Where was the second one? - Okay. - The first one was in the library, right? - Yes, so number one, right, he pulls that, he pushes the heavy thing up against the door that opens out. And so the next person just pulls the door open and walks right in. Second time in Joyce's house, when they're going into the basement and he is nailing the door frame and all you need to do is open the door out. - Yeah, okay. - And so they just open the door and they start, you know, just they duck under or whatever. These boards that he has nailed into the door frame. Twice, I wish I could have said it, not happens once, not twice, but thrice. I could only see two cases. - That's funny. I noticed the library one for sure, but for some reason it didn't register with the basement door. - I mean, that's gonna do nothing. It's gonna do nothing that way. - Yeah. What did you think about, and then now we're back into Xander's bedroom with Willow? - Yes. - And he's trying to get away and he says, "I don't want to use force." And she says, "Force is okay." And I'm like, "Really?" - No, and I just don't. We don't need that. We don't need that getting put into it. We don't need that out there as giving young men ideas. - Yeah, that's for sure. - This is what girls really want. - Yeah, yeah. I didn't care for that. - No, I didn't either. It did struck. In fact, that is probably of all of this stuff that, you know, that is probably the only line that I was kind of like, "Ew." - Yeah, yeah. That didn't age well, and I don't, and I don't approve of it. - Yeah. But, I love the hallway scene. (laughs) I've said it before. ♪ Got the love, got the love ♪ (laughs) And the way they shot it was just really great choices. - Anything, you want to elaborate on that? - Yes, I can. 'Cause when they've got the low angle and you just see the door open and it's just his feet, basically, walking. And it's slow-mo to that song, "Got the Love." And then they start to pan up and everybody's staring at Xander. And many of the girls are looking, well, even the teachers, all the females are looking at them longingly and they're giggling and whispering. And the guys that I saw were all looking at him with these looks of disgust on their face. And it's just, it's so funny. And I noticed one of the girls from earlier in the episode and I think one of them was at the bronze and saw Cordelia dump him. (laughs) So anyway, I just, that whole scene, and it's not very long. It's only a few seconds long. (laughs) - Yes. - It kind of makes that episode for me. - That's it. And Cordelia reacts as, "Who died and made you Elvis?" - Exactly, exactly. - And they go to take refuge in the house of a woman. What made them think the Joyce was gonna be immune when all the teachers were fawning over him? - Right, right. Well, neither am I really known for advanced planning or, let's just get to the closest thing. Maybe he thought distance would have provided a buffer or Joycey? - I just think, I mean, I think Cordelia is rather intelligent. Can she drive that? I'm not so sure, but I think she's pretty bright. This did not surprise me about Zander, but it did surprise me a bit about Cordelia. - Well, at that point though, she doesn't know about the spell. - Oh. - So she, I don't think she talked twice about going into the house. - Okay, then that hangs together a lot better. If it's just Zander's logic. - Yeah, I think it's totally Zander's. She doesn't find out about it. Well, you know, they're in the kitchen, right? And she's locked Joyce out of the house. - Yes. - And she's like, "You would have had to use witchcraft." - Oh, you're absolutely right. - So I think she didn't know. - You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. - Occasionally. - Wow, here, right on. We jumped over the part that Buffy's now a rat. - Yes, yeah. And I guess they turned her into a rat because she was, she had to go to New York to film Saturday Night Live. - Oh my gosh, what a great little bit of trivia. - I learned that from the Buffy verse wiki. - Oh, I love it. - Well, you should never go look at because each of their episode things has this thing called continuity and it spoils all sorts of stuff. So never go look at that wiki. - I have actually learned my lesson trying to look up anything. I really, I did it once and I regretted it. So I just can't even, and understandable. I mean, how old is the series? I begrudge no one for sort of having spoilers galore, but you just cannot do a general search on anything because there's so much information out there. And I think it's mostly consumed and created by people like you, right? People who really know the series and still wanna talk about it, still wanna, you know, and keep it alive, you know? And so they have all seen it backwards and forwards. And so yes, no, those are dangerous waters, my friend. To you listeners, if you are at the same level I am, don't Google anything about Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I am, DB is pretty safe, you know, looking at the episode guide or whatever. - Right. - But watch yourself. It's dangerous waters out there. - Yeah, there's some debate. I didn't get into it too deeply, but some people, and it's about this episode. Some people think that Xander should be given credit because he didn't take advantage of Buffy. And other people are like, he doesn't deserve any credit for that at all because that's just human decency. And I'm like, huh, that's true. I can see both sides of the arguments, particularly in the '90s, right? 'Cause it's really not until, you know, a decade or so later with all the rich and preppy boys and what, at California or something, that start to get taken to court and stuff and arrested for date rape and things like that. It's really, I think, a decade later before that really starts to be something that's talked about in the United States before it was just-- - Yeah, it's sentient. - Yeah, yeah, what does informed consent mean and so forth. So, so I can see both arguments, right? And it's easy to look back. I mean, hindsight, 2020 kind of thing. - Yeah. - So-- - Yes, an interesting point to ponder. Loved and I didn't see it coming. And I just loved it when Angel shows up and is attacking Zander that it's Dracilla. I just loved it. I just, I didn't see it coming. I didn't end, and then we have the additional. Even the undead females are after Zander. I mean, this spell, Amy, I mean, it misfired, but holy cow, what a powerful spell. - Yeah, yes, or okay, there weren't more vampires in that group. - Yeah. - Yeah, I do remember being surprised when Drew shows up to save Zander, but I laughed a lot. I thought it was really funny. - That was great. It really was, I was like, wow, Drew and Angel, OMG, even Drew is hot for Zander. Although I just hate it when she's like, something about calls herself mummy. I'm like, why do people think that's sexy to refer to yourself to as my boo? - Yeah, it's disturbing. - Another great moment for Drew is when she just shoves in the door, but yet cannot enter, but just physically shoves in the door. I loved, I don't know, it's just like, you go girl. - I mean, right, she's got super strength now. She was so weakened before, but she got a bunch of Angel's strength, right? It was that whole draining situation. - Yep. - Though he seems to be doing just fine still. - Yeah, it didn't seem to affect him too much. - Oh. - Yeah, people get smacked in this episode. - Oh yeah, very true. - Yeah, Buffy Clocks, Amy, 1950s, here girl, shoves Cordelia into a locker, bunch of people wammin' on Cordelia in the hallway. - Axes everywhere. I mean, this thing really escalated. The rolling pin, you know, I mean-- - The rolling pin lady, yep, yep. Ozclocks, Zander. - Oh yeah. - Oh, yeah, yeah. - Violence is not the answer, people. - No, no, but-- - Oh my God. - Violence was really harsh with Zander. - Let's go. - God, my son. - I'm like, wow. He's really mad. - I don't think Giles is in a good place right now. - No, no. Anyway, you were gonna say something tonight. - Oh, I was just-- - Continuing battling. - No, no, no, no, you, you about. I had entirely too much coffee this morning, so I should have apologized for that earlier. Anyway, the door, again, the door that gets nailed in the wrong direction. The people on the other side seem similarly confused, though there is a little hook that is keeping it locked, but also the people behind the door don't seem to realize that it gets pulled open because someone takes a dice that goes right through apparently this door that's made of paper. - I think that's Joyce, 'cause remember, when she confronts Xander and Cordelia at the front door, she's got that knife. - And says that we've got it in today because again, these feelings escalate so quickly from attraction to obsession to, "I can't leave without you, so now I'm gonna kill you." - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah. I did like when Xander kind of rescues Cordelia in the school hallway and cares and then they go outside and there's Willow with the axe, and then Harmony's mob of girls runs out and there's like, "Oh, these two mobs of females going at it." - Yeah. - For some reason that really made me laugh. - It was, it was very funny. - Did you, I want it before we get too far into it, before we get too far further, too far further. Bad English, isn't it? Anyway, in the basement, the school basement and that's where the Buffy rat has escaped to. - Uh-huh. - Written down. Why was Amy's dad in the basement? And I wanted to see if you would remember the reference. - Was, oh my gosh, because there was the cat that jumped out of the trunk. - Yeah. - But we know Amy's dad is not a cat, right? - Correct, yes. - Because he's a folk. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - He lives with him now. - Yeah. - But I do remember the cat jumping out of the trunk and so interesting call back because what the cat struck me was like, how many schools have a cat in the basement? Now, I do understand rat traps and I do understand they're being rats in a basement. - Yeah. - But, but a cat? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Of course, not just a cat being a truck. - Right, and in case solutions, don't remember, we're talking about the witch episode from season one and we were joking around and Rebecca came up with the whole, "Oh, maybe the cat was Amy's dad." - Yeah. - The series never, ever suggest that, that's just us. - No, it was a hypothesis that I think was a really good one. - It was a good one. - It was a disappearance. And I think it would have been better than he just vanished and left his daughter in a very unhealthy situation. - Yeah, yeah. - So I liked the being turned into a cat much better and like once the witch was contained, then he became not a cat anymore. So, you know, just if you need a few plot improvements, just give us a call. - We should, have you, I was really gonna tangent. I'm gonna pull myself back. I'm really myself back in. I'm not even gonna go on the tangent. - Okay. - So it was the whole stop to worry, stop. Okay. (laughing) Okay, so. - Now I like wanna know, but oh, whatever you, whatever you want. - Okay. - So I asked for it. - Our boys, our boys have in addition to the, their video reactions, they have a podcast. I don't know if you've listened to it yet. - You mean? - Jay and Adam. - Absolutely. I've subscribed to that podcast. I see that more than the YouTube content. (laughing) - Yeah, the fix it, that's all. That's a pop to my mind when we were just saying that, so. - Yeah, yeah. - That's the preview channel. And their podcast fix it where they fix pop culture. (laughing) - And talk about other cool stuff. - Yes, yes. - Roll four convo. (laughing) - Yeah, that's a music. And I'm like, but then that's a good idea. - It is a good idea. Actually, that's the part I often like more than they're actually fixing the movies. - Yeah. - Especially depending upon the movie. - Okay, that was the tangent. So did you find it a little? I mean, I'm really glad to hear about the whole Buffy was off to New York because the whole Oz sort of chasing down the rat and the rat trap and I was like, what is happening here? It really seemed tangential to the story. And it just ended up that the whole point was because she's naked and so Oz can go get her clothes. - Just so it kind of makes sense that they were just trying to keep Sarah Michelle gone. (laughing) Trying to cover this absence of her. - Right, right. Yeah, I guess I never really thought. I've seen that a lot this episode. I never really thought about that. I didn't think it was necessarily weird that he was gone. Somebody had to go look for Buffy. (laughing) - But like every, nobody else was. I just, it was like suddenly it was all on Oz to find, to find her. - Well, it was really just 'cause Giles had sent Xander home and so it was just Giles. - I guess Giles was who I was kind of thinking should have been involved more. 'Cause what the heck was he even doing? Well, I guess he's helping stop the spell. - Yeah, yeah, he was working with Amy to stop the spell but that would have been really weird, right? If it had been this adult Giles that finds Buffy naked in the basement. - But the two of them together wouldn't have been so bad. - No, if they were both together, that would have been a little bit better. But it was less, I don't know, I guess maybe less threatening that it was just Oz, you know? And Oz is all chill laid back. So-- - Well, as we know, Oz is the most emotionally intelligent of all characters on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. - Yeah, yep. - Oh, here's the drew line. ♪ Don't fret kitten, mommy's here ♪ - Oh, I hate it. - I don't like me, I wouldn't never call a guy kitten either, you know? - Right. - Maybe a little kid. Maybe I'd call a little kid kitten. But not somebody that I was trying to have sexy time with. - No, I mean, I call my nephew Gattito. - And his name is Catlin, so. - And you knew him as a child. - I knew him as a child. - And you certainly had no romantic interest in him at any time. - No, and it's just little cat, right? Gattito. - Yeah, that's sweet. - Yeah, yeah, it was just weird. But that's, you know, Drew, she's freaking psycho vampire. - Yeah, well, that's true. - It really, it really brings through that vibe. - Yeah, all right, I was happy with the spell casting and Giles didn't feel the need to like say things in a really loud voice with his hands up in the air. 'Cause I was watching, I was like, oh my gosh, I forgot, does he put his hands up and speak really loud? He did not, wow, wow, wow, wow. - What did you think about Cordelia's explanation to everybody when the spell was broken? - You mean when she finally stands up for herself? Which part, which- - No, like they're in the basement, right? And the spell's broken and- - Oh, the scavenger hunt then. - Yeah, she's like, boy, that was the best scavenger hunt ever. - Well, once again, right, so many times here, we have to ask ourselves these questions. Clearly, Buffy remembered everything. So, you know, did everybody remember everything and we're just to ashamed, say it, or were some people really so befuddled and it just was like, oh, scavenger hunt, I guess that's it, you know? I mean, the title is bewitched, bothered, and bewildered. So maybe many of them after being bewitched were just bewildered and a little confused. - And plus, as we've kind of talked about before, the residents of Sunnydale are like ostriches. - They can't remember last Tuesday, little fun. - Yeah, yeah, I think to live in Sunnydale, you have to have the kind of ultimate skill of repression. - Agreed. - You're just gonna repress that this ever happened? - We just need, yes, we just need to move on, heads up, just continue to go, heads down, I guess, not heads up, heads down. - Yep, yep, exactly, exactly. - I loved how the other scene with Cordelia, where she confronts the gang, is right by the famous stairs. - The stairs, yeah, she gives it the harmony, and, you know, 1950s hair girl is there too. - She sure is, her 50s hair is a little toned down here, but you can tell it's still her. - Still 1950s hair. - Yeah. - Yeah, and yeah, I thought it was great. She calls it a harmony. - And I knew, I knew when they broke up, I just knew they were going, it was not over. I knew they were gonna make their way back to each other. I did not know it was gonna happen in this episode, but I knew it wasn't over. - Yeah, Cordelia. - I do what I wanna do, and I wear what I wanna wear, and you know what, a date, whoever the hell I wanna date, no matter how lame he is. (laughing) - I'd be way cooler than you. - Yeah, and when Cordelia starts to have that little freak and like, oh my God, what am I done? And Xander's like, don't worry, you know, when we're in public, we'll fight a lot. - Yes. - And she's like, you promise? And he's like, you can pretty much bet on it. (laughing) - It was good, it was, yeah, just a very fun, entertaining episode with some character development. - And just a feel good, good time. - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah. - And not a whole lot of psychological torture of Angel on Buffy, just a tad. - Just a tad. Well, we're starting to set up, right, the end of the season, because we're at episode 16, so we get 17, 18, 19, 21, 22, there's six episodes left. So I think this episode is a little bit lighthearted, and it's kind of setting up, I mean, we already know, even pre-Angelis, Angel was a little bit obsessed with Buffy. (laughing) - Oh yeah. - And so, you know, it doesn't change much. (laughing) It just gets scarier. - Twisted. - Yeah. - Yeah, yeah. - Well, I'll take a deep breath and surge on, but I just can't imagine he's gonna be this way forever, so we'll just see what happens. - All right, and our next episode is called Passion. - Mm, oh dear. (laughing) - So, okay. - Yeah, I guess all we gotta do is say bye. - Thanks for listening, everybody. (upbeat music) - Whileowing in the shallows is created and produced by the both of us, edited by Mo. The soundtrack for the whileowing in the shallows, Buffy the Vampire Slayer season two re-watch, is Apache Rock instrumental by SoundItalia, available on gemento.com. You can send us feedback at witsdnecodd@gmail.com. That's W-I-T-S-T-V-P-O-D at G-I-T-O-D.com. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Subscribe. - Then subscribe. - Then subscribe. - Subscribe. - Hit that subscribe button, like and subscribe.