(upbeat music) - Hello everybody and welcome to the Non-Fiction Kidlet Craft Conversations podcast where we take a deep dive into the craft and business of children's non-fiction featuring new release authors. I'm your host, Kirsten Larson, author of Reimagining Your Non-Fiction Picture Book. Today, I have with me the fabulous Stephanie Gibo, author of Making Sense of Dog Senses and Calculating Chimpanzees, Brainy Bees and other animals with mind-blowing mathematical abilities. Welcome to the show, Stephanie. - Thank you so much for having me. I'm so honored to be here. - Well, we are delighted to have you as well. Today, we are talking about Non-Fiction Book Proposals, but before we get started, please introduce yourself and your books. - All right, so I am a freelance writer and children's author. I'm also a certified dog trainer with my master of science and animal behavior. So non-fiction is just a perfect fit for me, especially when it comes to animals and dogs. My most recent books are Making Sense of Dog Senses, How Our Furry Friends Experience the World. And that came out in April and is illustrated beautifully by Rosla Teeth. And then in May, so almost back-to-back, Calculating Chimpanzees, Brainy Bees and other animals with mind-blowing mathematical abilities came out. And the first one was Owl Kids, this one's MIT Kids Press. And this is Got Gorgeous Illustrations by Jacqueline Sinkett. And both of those books were sold using book proposals. - Right, and we should say that you also teach about book proposals for highlights. Is that correct? - Yes, it is. And that I was gonna mention that later on, but yes, absolutely I do. - All right, so that's all that to say. She knows what she's talking about on many levels. But let's dive in. We had a lot of, I got a lot of really great questions from folks, things that they wanna know about proposals. So you are Proposal Pro. Let's cover some of the basics for those who might be coming to book proposals for the first time. So when do you need a proposal versus, when do you need to write the whole book? Is there some kind of guideline that we can use? - Absolutely, and the guideline in general is the age level. So if you're writing a nonfiction picture book, you write the entire manuscript. If you're writing for middle grade or YA, you write a book proposal. So that's the general rule. And if you're writing nonfiction for adults, you also need a book proposal. Even sometimes memoir needs a book proposal. So those are sort of the general rules. But to get more specific, whenever the publisher requires it, give them a book proposal. Because sometimes you will see on their website what they're looking for specifically in submissions. And if it says book proposal, you're going to give them a book proposal. However, you don't do them for graphic novels, even nonfiction graphic novels, you have to write the script. And not for any fiction, unless you're pitching a series. And then you will do a book proposal about the series. So that's sort of the general rule of when to use them, why not to? Now, even if you're doing a book proposal, you can still write the manuscript. Because sometimes, particularly, if you've never done this before, writing the manuscript can guide the proposal, but you're not going to submit it for the middle grade in the YA, you're just going to submit the book proposal, and then be prepared that that manuscript can change substantially once an editor gets involved. - Well, and I think some of the, 'cause I think your book making sense of dog senses about how many pages is that, it's fairly short, right? - Yeah, I wouldn't say, I'm looking right now because I can't remember off the top of my head, it's 48 pages long. So it's not based on the length of the book, but the age level of the reader. - Okay, and I just wanted to emphasize that because there are nonfiction picture books, that can be 48, I've seen 64, and it's really about the age level that you're targeting. And of course, a lot of nonfiction picture books can skew older, but we typically are not in that eight to 12 middle grade category, that is a separate age category. So driven by category, that's really great advice, thank you. - So what are sort of the core elements of a nonfiction proposal? What would we expect to have when we're putting a proposal together? - Okay, so there are certain sections you should include in any book proposal. So I'll just briefly go through and give a little description of each one. And the first is an overview. And your overview is kind of the entire proposal encapsulated in one or two pages. So you're getting a little bit about why you should write it a little bit about the Hulk, a little bit about the target reader. You're getting kind of everything in that overview and it should be really, really hook the editor to wanna keep reading more. You also wanna target audience section. And that's the place where you're saying, who is the reader for this? Why will it appeal to them? And if you have them, what are the curricular connections that will make this valuable for the school and library market? You also want to have competitive or comparative titles, which is where you're listing, what else is on the market? So what would my book sit next to? But how is this book going to be different? So you really want, it's not just a list of titles. You want to expand on what's in there and what will I do differently. You need an outline or summary of the entire book. Now I've done point form for all my book proposals and nobody has ever complained, but you can also write paragraphs. So whichever I think works better for your brain and gets your point across most clearly. But you wanna have, this is what will be in chapter one. This is what will be in chapter two. And it's all broken, all my side bars, my activities, they were all there in that outline. You also need sample chapters. So you do have to write some of the manuscript. I recommend the first chapter for sure. And then whatever other chapters you think will grab the editor the best. But I've had editors say to me, I want that introduction. I want that opening chapter. And then pick two or one or two others that really showcase what you're trying to do. You also need a biography. So why are you the person to write this and what is your background in that subject or what drew you to the subject? What credits, publishing credits you may have. And then you need a selected bibliography. So you don't need every source that you're going to use for the book because you haven't even written it yet. But you wanna show that editor. You have the research chops to pull this off. Then there are some optional sections you can include. Depending on whether or not it suits your project. One of those is the format. And I like to include the format because I like to say this will be photo-driven or this will be illustrated. This will be so many pages approximately. Maybe it's going to be spread-based like a National Geographic where every time you turn the page you hit a new topic or maybe it's going to be broken into chapters. So this is your chance to show your vision. So I like to include that one. You can also include research plans or marketing plans. However, do not include them if your research or marketing are, I'm going to do research, I'm going to market the book because that's expected as the bare minimum, right? But if you're going to take a trip with scientists to some remote place, that's above and beyond. Put that in a research section. If you have a huge following or you speak at international conferences, that's a marketing thing that's above and beyond. Put a section to highlight that. So those are the sections you wanna be including or considering to include if you have those bonus pieces. - So it's kind of if you have a platform in the area that you're writing about and a way to access your audience, then you definitely wanna include that section. - Yes, but if it's just I'm going to do book events and I'm going to post it, that's expected of you who don't highlight that in a separate section. - Right. Well, and I, so I think that you've, that's a great overview. And I think you've answered one of the big questions that people have, which is how much of the work do I have to do upfront? One thing that I think is really interesting is I had never thought about the fact that after you get past that first chapter, which sort of summarizes your vision for the whole book, that you don't have to provide sequential chapters. So I think that's a really important point. Just focus where the most intriguing information is. - Yeah, absolutely. And I think in terms of the workload, it's a research workload, more than writing workload. Because when you're making that outline, and I think this is the trickiest part, do you have enough meat for your vision? Does the research exist to support the idea you want to put forward? So it's not enough to say, oh, I'm going to cover this and this and this. You have to know you can cover those things in the detail required for the age level. So you're really just, I mean, yes, you have to do research for the sample chapters, but you need to do it for the entire book to create an outline that you can sustain and carry through once an editor shows interest. - And you think marketing is part of that research to the marketing research, the what other books are out there? When you're looking for comp titles, that's a piece of this book proposal and a piece of the research to show there's a hole in the market that I'm going to fill. So I think it's very research heavy versus writing heavy. So it's not like you're not doing a lot of work. You're just doing a different piece of the work, if that makes sense. - Right, well, and I think, so again, kind of differentiating. You know, some people, I've seen this question come up a few times. If I've identified an expert, do I have to have talked to all of my experts in advance or can some of these interviews be lined up after the fact? Obviously, you mentioned the research trip. You may not go on that research trip unless you get the book proposal, you know, accepted. So do you have a feel for it, especially when we're dealing with experts and we're asking people for their time or we're thinking about investing money for research trips, how much of that is done upfront versus just sort of figuring out if you have enough of that information to proceed? - Right, and I think the research trip is a great way of looking at it. If a piece of the research or one of the experts is integral to your book, so you could not move forward without them, absolutely line them up in advance because you don't want to be promising something you cannot carry through on. But if it's a case where I can get a backup expert, if this expert says no, I just need a frog expert, for example, it doesn't have to be this frog expert. You're okay to just line up, these are the experts I intend to interview or have fact check or speak to, et cetera, in your proposal without actually doing the interviews. That's totally okay. It's only if I have to have this person, this particular interview, this particular research trip that your whole book is hinging on, then I would say yes, do it upfront. So for my book, Calculating Chimpanzees, I interview an expert for each chapter. And there were specific experts I needed because I was speaking about a specific research study. So that person leading that study is the person I needed, but I didn't interview them until after the book was sold. I just contacted them to say, "Can I get a copy of that academic paper "because I can't access it for free? "Or can I in the future ask you some questions?" So I think if you really need them, line them up. But if you can pick a backup person, it's okay to leave it all to left you. So I hope that helps. - Oh, that's fabulous. No, that's great. Because I think especially with nonfiction, no matter the age level you're writing for, so much of our upfront investment is on that research time and asking other people for use of their time, potentially even money. So it's important to think about how much of that do we need to do upfront and what are the guidelines? So I think you've provided some really helpful guidelines. And I just wanted to touch on a couple of different points. You know, we talk a lot about comps, even with picture books. And I think sometimes people sort of confuse, mentor texts and comps. And here when you're talking about comps, you're really thinking about who is the reader for this book? Who is the market? You know, it's not, I'm trying to capture the voice of this author or I'm, you know, I'm using this humorous tone or, you know, you're really trying to focus in on is there a market? Because that's going to be the question that the publisher has. - Absolutely. I think it's more about what shelf in the bookstore or library will my book be sitting beside? - Right. - As opposed to what am I using to inspire me? Like you said, the voice or the structure or the format or something. Now, when you assess the comp titles, you can say this has a humorous voice. My book will have a whatever voice. Like you can analyze what's going on in the book when you're looking at the comp title, but you're right, you're not choosing it for how it's inspiring you. You're choosing it for where really more subject matter. Where is this going to sit on the shelf? Now, when I did my comp titles for calculating chimpanzees, there weren't any. There were books about maths and books about animal cognition, but there were none that combined the two. So I had to just take some from column A, some from column B and finish off with a paragraph line that seems to be a hole in the market. I hope that an editor agreed. - Right. Yeah, and sometimes that's the challenge of doing something that hasn't been done before is then there's that question, is there a reason it hasn't been done before? Is there a market for this? So then you've got to prove it. - That's right, exactly. Yeah, well, and so going back to your last point where you talk about format, and I think this in nonfiction as a trend that I'm seeing, is we are seeing so many more books with these really rich design elements, lots of different ways for kids to access, access the text through text boxes, through illustrations. And so I think it's really, if you can think about a way to set your book apart or a way that will be especially kid appealing when it comes to format, what a great paragraph to provide. - Yeah, absolutely, it's your chance to show your vision. What do you see that makes this special and sets it apart as a physical book? - Right. - Yeah. - Yeah. So you have given us a lot of great information about what needs to be in that book proposal. So do you have any suggested templates or website resources that you would suggest people use that they can refer back to when they're crafting their own? - Absolutely. Now, when I submitted my proposals to editors, I had the benefit of my agent, Jackie Lipton, at Tobias Literary Agency, who was brilliant with nonfiction. But I queried her with a book proposal, so I didn't have her support when I was out there trying to get an agent. So I had to look for those kinds of resources. And one that I used is Jane Friedman's website. She has multiple articles on book proposals. And if you Google Jane Friedman book proposal, start here. You will get the first of a series of articles that will take you through doing a book proposal. And you can Google just book proposal and there's all kinds of resources out there. But keep in mind, most of them are for writing for the adult market. And in the adult market, platform is everything. That is not the case in the children's market. As long as you can prove you have a connection or you have the research chops to pull this off, you're generally with most publishers anyway, okay. In the adult market, you really have to have platforms. So you'll see that emphasized in these online articles that you really can just, okay, I don't need to worry about that, take a breath, it's okay. I'm writing for the children's market. So that's just the little note when you're Googling to be aware of that. So she's a good place to start. And I would also recommend courses. So when I was first putting my book proposal together, I took a highlights foundation retreat with Jen Swanson, Miranda Paul and Heather Montgomery. And it was brilliant. It was called "Not Simple to Science Writing." And Heather Montgomery actually shared a sample of a book proposal with us. And for me, I learned by examples and pieces fell into place. So when I teach for the highlights foundation, I show snippets of my book proposals for the people who learn like me. And you can, oh, that's how it all goes together. - Right. - So I suggest looking for any kind of nonfiction course that includes book proposals or a book proposal specific course to really get a feel for in the children's space, how they work. - That's great advice. - Yeah, and Jane Friedman is, her site is just a wealth of information. And we can put a link to the what you mentioned in the-- - Oh, okay, perfect. - Yeah, we can put that in there. And we'll also put a link to the highlights course 'cause I'm assuming this is something, your course is something that you offer periodically. - I'm hoping to do it again next year, but it's past, this year's past. - Okay, all right. So you'll have to stay tuned for 2025. So you've had a lot of success in this area and you've talked a lot about what we need to provide in a proposal. Do you have any kind of a sense of what editors and/or agents are looking for in the middle grade market space when it comes to nonfiction? Are there any trends that you've noticed? - I wish I knew what they were looking for so that I could submit it to them. But I think there are some general outside of maybe what's hot right now or what they're specifically looking for. There are some things in general that I know they're looking for and that's they want to hook. They want something that's going to hook the reader and really bring that middle grade reader into the book. So you have to have something beyond what you can find in an encyclopedia. We're competing with the internet, right? These kids can just pick up their phone or their laptop and that information is right there. So you can't sound like an encyclopedia or a Google page. You have to be offering something else, whether that's humor, gross out facts, interactivity, activities, whatever you can bring to this to make it beyond the Googleable experience. And editors are looking for that. They want that book. I also think when you're picking a topic, don't be too broad and don't be too specific. If you're too broad, it feels encyclopedic. Now Steve Jenkins and Robin Page did some beautiful books that were very general in the picture book space, about birds, about sharks. But in general and in middle grade, you need to narrow in some more. But if you get too narrow, it's too niche. And you're back to that whole argument of is there even a market then? - Right. But think of it in terms of a book about sharks, a book about the feeding behavior of sharks, or a book about the teeth of the nurse shark. Like you want to hit that sort of sweet spot in the middle. I also think you have to have a unique approach and bring something new to the market. You need to know what else is out there and what you're doing differently. And I would also say you need a compelling voice. I know I've had, my agent said that's what attracted her to my work, I've had editors say to me, I want a compelling voice in those sample chapters. They want to want to read it. - Right. And I think that can sometimes be challenging for us in nonfiction because a lot of us come to nonfiction because we loved to write essays, right? We were the kids who nerded out over the essays in high school and college. And it's not essay writing. And so having to learn to use all of your literary techniques to really hook the reader in can sometimes be a challenge. - Agreed. - Well, and I want to go back to your idea of hook because I had done a blog post. I had put a call out for people to send me their pitch paragraphs and you graciously sent in two for both of your books, I believe. And I think, you know, this idea of hook, I think what you're bringing with these books, for example, with making sense of dog senses, first of all, you're dealing with a beloved family pet, right? So if you think about things that kids like, kids love their pets, so you're starting there. But then you're taking this unusual approach of kind of comparing dog and human senses, which when we talk about trying not to be encyclopedic and trying to present information in a new way, you've done something really unique and it's really, to me, reading your pitch, it's very obvious what the kid appeal would be for this book and I think for an editor and an agent too. - I think that was, you're right, even the kids who don't have dogs generally love dogs. So you've got a built-in topic there of interest, but then that's not enough. Let's twist it, let's add the competition edge, let's have kids sing, ooh, can I do that too? As that extra element, ooh, I must read that, I hope. - Well, and then you're always offering something unusual and unexpected, right? So if we go to your book about animal mathematical abilities, most of us don't think about animals as having mathematical abilities. So even just with your title, you are presenting, you know, brainy bees, it's an unusual idea. So even we're even just getting your hook in the title. - Yes, absolutely. Where somebody reads the title and says, what or huh? I've got to know more. That's exactly, part of the hook is that title for sure. - Right, and I think that's the whole thing with a hook is you want people to go, huh, I wanna read more, right? That's when you know you've got your hook. So go back and also we're talking about hooks, I will put a link to that post on my blog where you shared your pitches because I think they really encapsulate what we're trying to do. - Yes, and I had an editor actually say to me, you know you've got a hook, if you could entertain mildly drunk friends at the bar with that piece of information. (laughing) I thought that was an interesting way of looking at it, but I see your point. - Right, that's funny. (laughing) Well, you have shared so much amazing information. Is there anything else that you think writers trying to craft compelling book proposals need to know that perhaps we haven't covered yet? - Yes, I think people need to know that a book proposal is a multi-purpose document. It's not just what, I mean, yes, it's a hook, it's a pitch, it's, let's get the editor interested. So that is a piece of it, it's one giant pitch, really. But it also has to outline the book. So it has to be all the details of what you're going to cover. It also has to show the editor, there's a market for the book. So it's a sales document. It has to show the editor, you're the right person to write the book. So it's also a job interview, right? A job application. And finally, it's going to make the editor's job easier if they take that to an acquisitions meeting and try to convince the rest of the publishing, the sales and the marketing and the rest of the editors, this needs to be purchased. If you've done your work in the book proposal, you've made the editor's job easier at that meeting. So I think a book proposal has so many facets and purposes and you really, the more you're aware of that when you're putting it together, I think the stronger it will be. - Well, and I think you've also, I mean, everything that you have just said, if you are a picture book writer, everything you have just said, that's the type of information we need in a query letter to, right? We need to know where the right person for the job. We need to know that there's a market for this book. We need to know the vision, right? So yeah, I mean, this is useful advice for anybody. We can't just go in there and expect that people are going to buy the book without a good justification. But what an advantage to have a well-crafted book proposal if you're doing middle grade and YA. - Yeah, absolutely. All right, well, this has been fabulous. I really appreciate your time and your expertise. Where can people buy your books and connect with you online? - Okay, so both making sense of dog senses and calculating chimpanzees are available wherever books are sold. So Amazon, Barnes and Noble, I think they might both be at Target too. I'm not sure about that now. I'm usually checking and, oh, I know some of my books are on Target. But so I've got links on my website for some of those places and for bookshop.org and for my local indie because they've got some signed copies available. If anybody was interested in that and my local indie is blue heron books. And again, my website has little buttons so you can go and find them there. And to connect with me online, my website is StephanieGibo.com. So just my name. And I'm on X still at Gibo rights. And I'm on Instagram at Stephanie_Gibo. I'm also on LinkedIn and Facebook under my name. And you can find the links to those on my website as well. - Perfect. And we will put a link to your website and your social links in the show notes so that folks can follow you. And you have a couple of books coming out next year, right? At least you have a picture book, right? - They're both picture books. - Yeah, there's a companion picture book to this. - Oh, cool. - So it's actually part of the book proposal sale that they wanted to do too. So that was really exciting. And it's called "Dogs versus Humans," a showdown of the senses. And that comes out next spring. And then I have another picture book which is my first biography called "The Dog Who Saved the Bees." And that's coming out in the fall next year. And that's about a certified beehive sniffing dog. He sniffs for disease and beehives. He's super cool dog. - Very cool. Those are awesome projects. So get to Stephanie's website. Do you have a newsletter that people can follow? - I would like to start a newsletter 'cause I haven't done it yet. - All right. Well, you can follow her on Amazon, I'm sure, and click that you want to be notified when her new books come out. - And now you've just given me incentive to do that newsletter. (laughs) - Oh, we all get there sometime. So anyway, I really, really appreciate your time. So thank you, Stephanie, and we really appreciate it. - Oh, thank you for having me. This was wonderful. - Thanks for listening. Please leave your comments on my YouTube channel at Kirsten W. Larson or the podcast website at kirstenwlarson.com. That's where you'll find backlist episodes and the show notes. To get access to the full transcript for each episode, please join my mailing list at kirstenwlarson.com. Next month, I'll be talking with author illustrator, Katherine Roy, of Making More. And most recently, see you without a sure, written by Barb Rosenstock. We'll be chatting about non-fiction illustration. If you would like to help brainstorm questions for future guests, join my "Meremagine Insiders" community. You'll also receive monthly craft posts and videos, live Zoom opportunities, plus discounts on all classes and critiques. Until next time, happy writing and revising.
What does it take to craft a compelling children's nonfiction book proposal?Today I talk to Stephanie Gibeault, author of MAKING SENSE OF DOG SENSES, to learn more about book proposals.Show notes:Classes and resources mentioned: • Jane Friedman’s book proposal post (which also includes a proposal template): https://janefriedman.com/start-here-how-to-write-a-book-proposal/ • Highlights Foundation: https://www.highlightsfoundation.org/ • MG Expository Pitches Post (including Stephanie's pitches): https://kirstenwlarson.com/2024/09/20/winning-expository-book-pitches-examples-and-analysis/ • Stephanie's website: https://stephaniegibeault.com/ • Her X profile is @GibeaultWrites: https://x.com/GibeaultWrites • Her Instagram profile is @stephanie_gibeault: https://www.instagram.com/stephanie_gibeault/ To get the full transcript of this podcast, sign up for Kirsten's newsletter. It will be included with my next monthly mailing. Sign up here: https://kirsten-w-larson.kit.com/8ca48d284c Want to shape the conversation? Join my Reimagine Insiders paid community for an opportunity to ask future guests your questions. https://writers.kirstenwlarson.com/b/insiders
