[MUSIC] >> Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Non-Fiction Kidlet Craft Conversations Podcast, where we take a deep dive into the craft and business of children's nonfiction, featuring new release authors. I'm your host, Kirsten Larson, author of re-imagining your Non-Fiction Picture Book. Today, I have with me the fabulous Buffy Silverman, the author of the brand new poetic picture book, Starlight Symphony. Welcome to the show, Buffy. >> Thank you. Thanks for having me. >> All right. I am excited to get into this. So let's start with the question, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourselves for people who aren't familiar with you, and give us a little bit of back story about Starlight Symphony. What's the book all about? >> Okay. I have been writing for a very long time, and most of what I've written for the last 30 years has been nonfiction. I started off writing a lot for Ladybug Magazine. I've done a lot of work for higher educational books, and I've been trying for quite a while to move more into more trade books. Starlight Symphony is one of those. It is published by Milbrook Press, and it is basically my love song to the place that I live. I live on a small lake in Michigan at the swampy end, and starting in the spring, the spring peepers peep going through frogs and toads and coyotes, and in the fall right now we've got Katie did singing. You think about the countryside as being quiet. It is not quiet, it is very noisy at night. What I've done in this book is I have tried to capture a summer evening, and all of the animals that you hear in a summer evening near a lake in Michigan, but also in many other parts of the country. What I've done because it's a symphony is try to compare each animal to different musical instruments. For example, we get the only instrument I could bring with my slide whistle. We get the screech owl, and the screech owl sounds like this. In the book, it first calls the screech owl a slide whistle player, and then goes into what the screech owl is singing. Yes, I would say I'm a big fan of the book, and I think you achieved your goals very well. I mean, there are so many different layers to this book, not only with talking about the animal sounds, but then introducing kids to instruments they may not be aware of, because you're using them as analogies. So the book really has a lot of layers that I'm interested to unpack it with you. Thank you. Yeah, so first of all, I think I have to say that I do not write in rhyme. So I am in awe of your book because writing nonfiction is hard, but writing in rhyme, good rhyme, is extremely hard. So I think a lot of listeners will be interested to hear about your process. So, for example, when you're writing in rhyme, are you outlining first to get the facts down, and then translating that to rhyme? Or as somebody who writes in rhyme, do ideas come to you in rhyme or as sounds? I'm just curious about your process. Well, I wish I was organized enough to have a process. But to be honest, this book actually started out as a prose informational fiction book. And I wrote this very nice bedtime story. It was, I shouldn't even call it a very nice, a nice bedtime story. And at the time, this was in 2019, I was lucky to have entered a mentorship contest with SCPWI Michigan. They had one picture book mentorship for unpublished authors and one for published authors. And I won the one for published authors with Kelly DiPuchio, who I've known for years and is an amazing writer. So I sent this manuscript to Kelly as part of the mentorship. And she took one look at it and did not critique it. She sent it back and said, well, I love the premise. I think it's a really cool idea. I love the back matter. But if it's a symphony, why isn't the language musical? Oh, yeah, she's right. And I have the first draft here. I'll read you just a teeny bit of the first show. It was called Lakeside Symphony at the time. And it's the light dims and the curtain rises. The musicians prepare to play. The fluteist plays a cherry melody. "Eolé." "Eolé" sings with thrush from his perch on the maple tree. And it goes on. And it really ends with a kid and a bedtime routine. And the book basically followed the same structure when I wrote it in rhyme. But it added that extra element that really needed to be there to make it sing like the animals sing. I did get rid of the kid. That took me quite a long time to figure out a better ending. But that's basically the journey with that one. Other books I've written have been more inspired by rhyme. So, for example, this book on a snow melting day, this started off with a prompt for-- it's not called "Pibo Idmo Now," is it? It's called, uh-- Oh, storystorm. Storystorm. Thank you. What used to be that? This was a prompt from Heidi Stemple. And she said, "Pay attention to what's around you." And how does that help me, I thought? And so I was just thinking about it. And these words just came to me. It was a drip, dropy, slip, sloppy snow melting day. And that's almost the opening of that. And I thought, yeah, that's just a poem. But then I kept playing with it. And it became a poetic picture book. So that one definitely started with the rhyming words. Starlight symphony, as I said, really didn't. So that's fascinating. And I mean, I always love the messy creative process, right? It's not-- it is, I guess, a process. But it's not a linear process. It's often very circular and messy. So just digging into that a little bit. So sometimes, you know, the rhyme comes to you. But when you're in a situation where the rhyme isn't what you're leading with, how do you go about? But you realize rhyme is what you need for Starlight symphony. You have the research. So then how are you-- do you have any tips or tools or tricks that you use to help you craft such beautiful rhyme? Well, I think part of it is experience. As I said, I've been doing this for a while. And it becomes a little easier the more experience you have. The other thing I think that really helped me with this, with having the prose manuscript first, is that I was not letting the rhyme drive the story, which I think is so easy to fall into. And I know I've fallen into it. And pretty much everyone I know who writes in rhyme has fallen into it. And you realize, no, that's not what you're trying to say here. That's not what's best for either the fiction story or the nonfiction story. So I think having that certainty of where I was going first really helped with this manuscript. And then it's just a matter of playing with words and playing with words over and over. I mean, I do a lot of using the different rhyming dictionaries. I will Google up phrases to use for such and such an animal to describe it or whatever. So I use all the tools I can and I just keep playing with it until it works. And do you, I mean, do you have formal training in rhyme? Do you have a poetry background or is this something that you've just learned on your own? So my background was I had an ecology conservation major way back when, when that was a thing was pretty much a biology major. And then I got a master's in environmental education. So no, but I did take a, the one writing course I have taken in my life was in graduate school. A formal writing course was in graduate school. And it was a writing environmental writing as part of the environmental education class that I took. I have taken lots of online courses more recently. I started writing poetry for kids, maybe 15 years ago, Laura Purdy Salas offered a course in writing poetry for kids. It wasn't necessarily nonfiction and that really introduced me to children's poetry and I pretty much fell in love with it. And then I've taken other courses since, but that's, that's my background, basically. Well, and I think that's really inspiring to realize that you don't have to be a formally trained poet to learn and use these tools that we can study on our own. We can take online classes or classes locally. And, and then experience is the big teacher. I mean, you said you've been doing this for 15 years. So it's 15 years of experience. Many, many rejections along the way, of course, of course, and getting that feedback. And then now we figure out, you know, how to, how to do that. So that's, that's really inspiring. So let's talk, you have mentioned the structure of this, this book. You know, so kind of on the, the simplest level, it's, it's kind of a list book about animals and the, the sounds that they would make during a summer evening. But, you know, it's so each poem, it kind of stands on its own or each animal stands on its own. But you've woven in this, this tension and this kind of narrative arc, you know, where it's building building tension. So there's, you know, in the beginning, it's sort of calm. And as we move through the book, we get predators arriving like owls and coyote and the tensions growing. So, talk to me a little bit about that structure was that something that you had to come to through trial and error, or did you realize that you needed some kind of a framework to arrange these animals and what was that process like for you. So I'm glad you saw tension in it, that was not intentional, but I'm glad it's there. I think what I started off with was really more a time based structure, when the animals come out in the evening starting with sunset and getting later and later at night. And, and editor looked at this manuscript and liked it, but she said to me and she didn't ask me to be submitted, but she said the something that really helped me a lot and said that even in a book like this, you need more of an arc. And that's how I figured out to go from early evening late through the night and then ending with a robin singing in the morning the the morning chorus of birds. So it does have a time arc. The other thing I did was I tried to mix up different different songs and calls so for example, I could have done just all mating calls because that's mostly what you hear. I've gotten a little boring so I think that's where the tension you're hearing is is coming from is some different warning songs of different animals, like the wood, wood duck singing week week, which is a warning call at night. And I think the photographs that the, that millbrook picked up picked out for really highlighted a lot of that and really increased the tension that you're seeing as the night goes on. And that's the magic of picture books right we have that interplay of text and images, and when you bring the two together you get something even better than either one alone, which is fascinating. So that's a great segue into my next question, which is, you know, this is a photo illustrated project, which we are seeing, you know, we do see photo illustrated picture books, I think millbrook, especially is known for producing these beautiful poetic picture books that are with photos, but that's definitely not the majority of picture books, you know, most of them are there commissioning artists to draw or paint or whatever. So, when you were submitting this did you have in your mind, an idea of how this might be illustrated did you pitch it as a photo illustrated project, or is this something that you, you came to, you know, or that millbrook came to in discussions with you. I certainly saw it as a illustrated book I did not intend for it to be photo illustrated. I had done a few other photo illustrated books for millbrook Carol hands a few years back had put out an open call for photo illustrated books and that's kind of how I got my foot in the door there I had written a lot for learner, but not for millbrook. And so that's how I got my foot in the door was during her open call and I wrote several for her, and then she sent me an email and said, I'm looking for another photo illustrated book to have anything that would work and I was really hesitating to send this because I really could picture the illustrations in my mind, and then I thought, hmm, maybe it would work fine with photographs. And so I did send it and they liked it and I, it was a little difficult, the process of getting the right photographs and I'm usually pretty easy going with with editors, but I did get a little insistent on a few of the photographs and saying, yeah, this isn't quite showing what we want, and they kept searching and they found some really great ones. So it did, it did work with the photographs, but I wasn't at all sure at first if it would. Well, and that's the challenge right because I mean when you're when you're illustrating that the artist can sketch something you review the dummy and you can say yes that's working. But photographs, you don't get to review a dummy you can't direct unless they're commissioning a photo shoot which they're not right they're searching the archives. So yeah it's a little bit different of a process and I guess I didn't think about that particular challenge. Now, having done a few photo illustrated books for Milbrook do you have a sense at all of what what books are appropriate for photo illustration and what makes a good photo illustrated book. Do you have any advice are you still you still not sure. Well my dream is someday I will have a photo illustrated book that's completely done with my photographs. Oh, some of my photographs have been in on a snow melting day and on a gold blooming day but in that case I can kind of see it in my mind of things that that I that I could imagine being photo illustrated. Otherwise, I'm really not sure. Obviously the photographs have to be available. Unless you're a photographer yourself. April, April police say are did some gorgeous photo illustrated books. I believe with beach lane. If anybody is interested in seeing some really beautiful ones and I think her books were what inspired Carol Hins to start this younger photo illustrated line at Milbrook. So, I think the topic has to be fairly narrow to work with a photo illustrated book. And they have to be things that are available. So, right. So maybe not Antarctica or you know places it's difficult is to send photographers. Unless you can find a treasure trove of photos there. Right. All right. Well, that's great advice. So, you know, here's, here's the big question. We all hear that it is difficult to sell rhyming picture books and a lot of agents don't want to take on rhyme. Now we know that a lot of that is because the rhyme is not good and that the rhyme and the meter have to be spot on for books to get acquired. But have you, you know, you've kind of specialized in this area of these poetic picture books. Have you encountered any pushback or difficulties in terms of trying to sell rhyme. Well, I can say quite clearly that I've had many prose books rejected and I've had many rhyming books rejected. The ones that have sold are ones that have been done well and that there's a place for it in the market. Well, I've suggested vice well two things one if you want to write in rhyme. Take some classes in it. Renee a lot to leap offers the lyrical language lab, which is a, which I did take when she first started that class. And that's a wonderful way to get familiar with. To force yourself into that kind of language read a lot of what you're trying to write. There's another group called. Poetry Friday that are bloggers who every week blog about poetry for kids. So become a part of that group or just read a lot of the blog postings of that group. So it's like anything else you really have to immerse yourself in it. That's homework. That's the, that's the theme here. Yeah. If we're looking for great poetry to read for kids, you know, we want to be inspired. We want to learn. Mentor text is a great way to do that. So who are some of the poets that you would recommend people that you've been influenced by or that you admire. I started off saying Laura Purdy Salas class that I took with her. Laura's written some great nonfiction poetry books. Joyce Sidman was one of the people that I read and studied over and over when I first started writing poetry for kids, and she writes a lot of nonfiction also. Irene Latham has written some wonderful nonfiction poetry Maria Gian Ferrari I probably mispronounced her last name. She's writing she is somebody who I think has kind of boomed on to the scene in the last few years writing some beautiful nonfiction poetry books. Katie House wrote some beautiful books that are really lovely and worth reading. David Harrison is somebody else who I've, I wrote a lot. I read a lot of early on, and I believe he is still publishing a lot of nonfiction poetry books. So those are those are a few that I really enjoy. Right, and you also mentioned April police say as well. April police say yes, her books are magnificent. Yeah. So is there anything else that I haven't asked you that you wanted to discuss or you wanted to share. One tip I would have is going to your local library. And every week I go to my local library and I pull off books from the new books shelf. So for example I just went through the books that I brought home this week. One of them, the pumpkin seed secret. This is very much the kind of book that I like to write so reading what's being published right now kind of book that I like to write. Looking for good rhyming examples this is not nonfiction but it's a wonderful good rhyming example pig digs a road by Carrie Finison. She writes beautiful non rhyming stories. And here's the third one. However, this one is not poetry but it is very lyrical language. And I find it really inspiring to read that kind of lyrical language so I think going to the library and seeing what's being published right now in what you want to write and in the style that you want to write, even if it's not the same subject is really helpful. That's an excellent tip. That's a great. And I found, especially with what I'm trying to get into a particular voice sometimes even typing out lines from those picture books has been a good strategy for me to kind of train my ear. For sure. Yes, I have a whole folder on my computer of books that I have typed out. It's a wonderful way to to really absorb the language. Yeah. All right, well, thank you Buffy this has been so beneficial and I will the books that you're mentioning the authors that you're mentioning Renee's class I will put links to all of that in the show notes. But where can people buy your book and connect with you online. So you can buy Starlight Symphony on any online publisher, or you can buy it from learnerbooks.com. What I would love for your listeners to do is to ask for it at your local library. It is published in a library binding. So that's the best place for it to be. And requesting it at your local library is a wonderful thing you can do to help any author. And online you can find me at www.BuffySilverman.com I'm on Facebook, Twitter sort of blue sky as Buffy Silverman. So any of those places. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for joining me today Buffy and thank you for all these fabulous tips. We really appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks for listening. Please leave your comments on my YouTube channel at Kirsten W Larson or the podcast website at KirstenW Larson.com. That's where you'll find backlist episodes and the show notes. To get access to the full transcript for each episode, please join my mailing list at KirstenW Larson.com. Next month, I'll be talking with middle grade nonfiction author Stephanie Jiboo about nonfiction proposals and pitches. If you would like to help brainstorm questions for future guests, join my reimagine insiders community. You'll also receive monthly craft posts and videos, live Zoom opportunities, plus discounts on all classes and critiques. Until next time, happy writing and revising.
How do we craft, edit, and sell poetic nonfiction picture books? Today I talk to Buffy Silverman, author of STARLIGHT SYMPHONY, to learn more about writing in rhyme.
Show notes:
Classes and resources mentioned:
Renée LaTulippe's Lyrical Language Lab: https://www.reneelatulippe.com/lyrical-language-lab/
Laura Purdie Salas's Poetry site: https://laurasalas.com/poetry/
Poetry Friday: https://www.nowaterriver.com/what-in-the-world-is-poetry-friday/
Authors/poets mentioned:
April Pulley Sayre
Laura Purdie Salas
Joyce Sidman
Irene Latham
Maria Gianferrari
Katey Howes
David Harrison
Books mentioned:
THE PUMPKIN SEED'S SECRET by Hannah Barnaby, illustrated by Cédric Abt
PIGS DIG A ROAD by Carrie Finison, illustrated by Brian Biggs
JUMPER by Jessica Lanan
Connect with Buffy at https://buffysilverman.com/
You can order STARLIGHT SYMPHONY wherever books are sold. Please support Buffy by asking your local library to buy a copy of STARLIGHT SYMPHONY for its collection. Details about the book here: https://lernerbooks.com/shop/show/24762
To get the full transcript of this podcast, sign up for my newsletter. It will be included with my next monthly mailing. https://kirsten-w-larson.ck.page/8ca48d284c
Want to shape the conversation? Join my Reimagine Insiders paid community for an opportunity to ask future guests your questions. https://writers.kirstenwlarson.com/b/insiders
