Hello everybody and welcome to Nonfiction Kidlet Craft Conversations where we take a deep dive into the craft and business of children's nonfiction, featuring new release authors. I'm your host, Kirsten Larson, author of Reimagining Your Nonfiction Picture book. And today I have with me the fabulous, multi-published, amazing Nancy Cherden. She has a new book out, Rainbow Allies, which we are going, yay, which we are going to be talking about today. So Nancy, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself and just kind of give us a little bit of backstory on Rainbow Allies and what it's all about. Thank you so much, Kirsten. And thank you for this wonderful, wonderful program that you do. It's just so great. I enjoy it so much. Rainbow Allies, it was very interesting. It only came out this year, but I started working on it in 2016. I was actually at a writing retreat from my very first book, the William Royce story. I mean, it was right after William Royce sort of came out in March. It was a summer. I was at a writing retreat. And I am a former journalist, you know, now I'm full-time children's book author. And so I always used to go and scroll up and down, you know, see what the headlines were. And in my scrolling, I found this amazing story about these kids in Natick, Massachusetts, who had taken a very sad story and turned it into a beautiful one. And that I was the story of Carrie and Laurie writing a lesbian couple in Natick, Massachusetts, who had this rainbow flag on their house. Can they come home one day, that flag is torn down their house's egg, they are in despair, the kids of the neighborhood see what has happened. And their heart goes out to their neighbors. And they try to come up with a way to make things better. And that story so moved me. It brought me to tears because it was all about the way the world should be. All of us looking out for each other, standing up for each other. And the fact that kids led the way nobody is too young to make a difference. And just as hate must be carefully taught, love is something that should be taught or our children should be exposed to from the youngest ages. I was determined to put that story in a book. And even though, again, I only had one book out at the time, and this was 2016 and it's eight years later, it took me that long to get this book, to get the story right and to get it into print. Well, and one thing, I love that you mention that because one thing that you mentioned to me in our conversations before this is that it sort of took you a while to land on the right point of view for the story. And so one thing that really struck me about this book, and one thing I really admire in all of your writing, is your ability to put the reader in the story through your crafting of these really deep scenes. You know, readers feel like they're there experiencing the actions, feeling the emotions. And for this particular story, you chose the perspective of Brendan, one of the neighborhood children. And so I'm just curious, you know, how did you land on telling this book from Brendan's point of view? That is such a great question. And I wish I had been wise enough to figure that out in the same years. I just, you know, my first reaction was just that this story moved me so much and I wanted it out there. But how to tell it? And from whose perspective to tell it, craft wise, that's one of the biggest questions we have, who's telling the story, you know, that that's that wonderful song from Hamilton, who lives, who dies, who tells our story, right? Right. He dies lyric because who does tell the story? Well, again, as I said, I'm a former journalist and I not only interviewed and have the blessing of Carrie and Lori, but also the kids. I talk to Brendan and I talk to the parents. I got to know Landon in summer. I think I finally realized and what's interesting is because, yes, it's Brendan's perspective, but it's not how do I how do I explain this in a clear way because it's a little complicated because it's not just one boy's perspective, but it's about one boy's love for his neighborhood as a loving and inclusive place, right? So this is not a biography of Brendan, right? Right. But this is a story of Brendan, a young boy growing up in a neighborhood and what he loves about his neighborhood is that everybody is welcome, everybody is supported, everybody looks out for everybody. And, and so though that was the story I wanted to tell, but this this boy had something precious as the whole neighborhood did, but you know, it's always easier to see things through one person's eyes than, you know, 100, right? So, but that's what men, and so when that flag was torn down, when the house was egged, when he saw Carrie and Lori looking so distressed, something, it's not only that they were hurt, something was broken in his neighborhood, in his sense of the world, how the world should be, you know, I, there's an expression called Ticuna alum about healing the world. And there's a sense, there's a story that the world was once perfect, it was broken into so many pieces and it's our job to put the pieces back together again. I think I saw Brandon through that, Brendan through that lens, he sees the broken pieces like the broken shells on the house, he's trying to put that neighborhood back together again. Well, and I think that comes across really clearly, like when we talk about the emotional arc of the story, you know, it's really clear that it was sort of this idyllic place or appeared to be an idyllic place in the beginning. And then, you know, this event happens, his, his idea of his home is shaken. And now he's working with the other kids in the neighborhood to figure out how to kind of restore this idea that he had about his neighborhood. Thank you so much. Of course, I want to jump in with one more thing because so many people think what makes the neighborhood great is how big the houses are, how grand it is or all the amenities. And what I wanted to bring home is what makes a place beautiful is the love and support we have for each other. Right. It's the people. So there, I mean, there's so many great takeaways for kids, right? Messages for them to learn, not even not just that they can make a difference in the world that they can restore right, but also important messages about, you know, what makes these communities special places. And it's the people. So I think, you know, one thing I feel like a lot of authors struggle with is writing these really compelling scenes. So you have some very detailed scenes, for example, where Brendan and the neighborhood kids, you know, Brendan comes to his friends and shares the problem that the rainbow flag has been stolen and their brainstorming different solutions. You know, what are we going to do? You know, so I put putting, crafting those scenes where action is playing out in real time. Yeah, this is a great spread. It can be a real challenge for people. So there are sort of two things that I want to tease apart. The first is, how do you as a writer find those raw materials that you need to bring those scenes to life? In this book and in your other books, what sort of resources are you looking for and what kind of connections are you making to kind of craft these really deep and compelling scenes? Thank you. These are such excellent questions, Kirsten. So I can give you some answers and some of it is also just part of that magic that happens when you're channeling. When I, as a journalist, I spent years as a theater critic, saw a lot of theater. I love theater and I love theater people and what they do to me, books are so much like theater because they are a place where we channel others, we bring others to life. And in doing so are whether it's in a theater where people are feeling what's going on the stage as if it's real, as if it's happening to them. What we want in a book is to feel that what is happening in the book to brand and to land in the summer, Lori, Carrie, the neighborhood, that it's happening to them. So I use, I think of myself as, well, you know, you're a little bit of the director, right? You're a little bit of the dramaturg, getting all the information together. You've got to sort of direct the scenes, but you're also the actor. You are the actor and you're actually playing multiple roles because you have to be all your people. So I have to gather information. For instance, I mean, I gathered a lot of information, I talk to Brandon, I talk to everybody. And then you take it all in and you have to find that place where you and the person you're writing about merge and you almost have to let things go and feel and be it. So for instance, if someone is to be, you know, sometimes acting is a word we don't give enough credit to, we use the word act sometimes disparagingly, oh, you're just acting, you're not being real, you're pretending, but acting is actually one of the great things people can do on stage or in books because you are merging, you are being like Spock and Star Trek, the mind meld member, the Vulcan mind vest, you have to get to that Vulcan mind meld place and you have to, you've gathered all your information, but you can't just say, and then you can't just, you can't just list all that information, right? You have to feel it. It has to merge with parts of you so that you can feel it and you know what you would do or what you would think in that situation. And that's when an actor actually becomes a part when we forget somebody is acting. So my goal is in these books that you don't even see me anymore. Right? Right. Sorry about me. I'm just trying to bring Brandon and Summer and Landon and Carrie and Lori and the neighborhood to life. So that's, that's, you know, I can't break it down to ABC, but I can say if you do your homework, but then you sit with it and I, this one, again, this one took me years. It was complicated to sort it all out again because it wasn't just about Brendan. It was about Brendan, the boy who loved his loving neighborhood and wanted to fix what was broken. And I realized that, and this is what Landon and Summer wanted to, then I, I was feeling that, then they were talking to me and then just struggling to keep up. Right. You just, I mean, you know, you're, you're, you're just writing it and you almost write it before you think it because your intuition is faster than your reasoning. Right. Yeah. You're making these unconscious connections and these unconscious decisions. And their leaps. Right. So that's what, that's what intuition and feeling really is emotions. Art allows you to leap. You leap ahead of, you can set it in your logical mind, you're going from A to B to C to D, but when you're making a leap, sometimes you're just going from A to, you know, hi, you know, up to zed, or, you know, to infinity, that's where it can take you. So you mentioned, and it's very obvious, I think from the, from the book, and you mentioned it in your author's note that you had conversations with Carrie and Laurie, you talked with Brendan, you talked with the neighborhood kids. So obviously these first person interviews that you were conducting were critical pieces of your research. Were there other pieces of research that you were using, for example, to give you a sense of the neighborhood? You know, did you travel to the neighborhood, or did you look at Google Maps, or, you know, how did you get a sense of the other details that you needed to kind of craft that whole world? Because we really do feel like we're there. Oh, thank you again so much for that. You know, I relied on, I have my undergraduate degree from Harvard. So I spent four years in Cambridge, and traveling around that area, PJ Leiber was very generous to me in giving me a scholarship to attend their tent program in Amherst, Massachusetts. And from there, I traveled around that area. So I know New England, this is Natick, this is New England, these are very New England people. Right. We think for themselves, and they're strong, and they're strong for each other. You know, Massachusetts has been quite a leader, because I believe it was the first state to legalize equal marriage, and as well as having its own healthcare system that looked after everybody. So I had a feeling for it, but also again, as I said, as a reporter, I'm just talking to people, and I'm feeling, and I'm channeling, there's a familiarity to the place. But ultimately, the place is of my heart. And I did not also want to lose the universality of it, because all of our neighborhoods can be as beautiful as this neighborhood, because what makes it beautiful is standing out for each other. So I did not, in the particular is the universal, but I also did not want to lose the universal in being bogged down in the particular. It's a balance. Well, and we should, I mean, we should also say, I mean, this is a picture book, right? So we have Izzy Evans's beautiful illustrations, right? Deeply emotional, just absolutely stunning illustrations, which bring a lot of the visual detail to the setting. And this is, you know, did you, you know, I find it so fascinating how authors and illustrators sometimes work together, most of the time don't. But you know, was Izzy doing her own research, or were you providing research, or how did that relationship work? Yeah. And first I'll say about Izzy, Izzy, they are non-binary. Oh, excuse me. No, they are non-binary. I'm not letting me know. No. And I had to tell you, you said the girls, I did get to know Izzy a little. I mean, Izzy, they live in England. So I didn't see them in person, but I learned some fun things about them. One, Izzy does not like their picture taken. So if you look in the back of the book, Izzy. Oh, I love it. Drawing. And then she offered, and I gladly accepted to make a drawing of me. Oh, that's, that's really cool. Katie Wu did that for a true wonder. We have, we have illustrate, we have illustrations. And that's a wonderful book, Paris, and I love that, love growing up with Wonder Woman. And that story has so much resonance. And even more so right now, today, as we saw it, Izzy, did, did you share, were you asked by your editor to share any research with Izzy, or was Izzy doing their own research? How did that? I think the way it worked was that my editor, Naomi Kruger, at Beaming Books, would ask me questions, and I would share answers, and she would share with Izzy. So there wasn't that much direct interaction, actually the only time, the direct interaction started just a little bit when Izzy got a little, was, was under the weather, and, and I ended up sending her some nice tea and cookies, and, and, because she was in England, not from the Dickens Museum, I sent her my, sent them my Dear Mr. Dickens book, which she really loved, which, I mean, that's another interesting, that was another challenging book to write. That was a non-fiction book that I played around with perspective as well. But no, so they figured a lot of that out on their own. And I was very touched because Izzy told me that it, it felt so meaningful to her, and I think especially as a non-binary person, and that, that the, the love and inclusion, the encouragement of allyship meant a lot to them. I have to say, I have a dear friend who is Patricia Sorrows, who's a New York City School Public Librarian, she's an administrative role. She told me that this is the only book that she has found that has the hashtag #Allyship. Oh. Right. Because this is a book about allyship. Right. It's right. It's the focus. Right. It is. One hundred percent. And we can all be allies. Well, and I think that is one of the central messages of the book, right, is that we can all, we can all be allies. Yeah. So, obviously you, I mean, you come from a journalism background. So contacting people you do not know is your everyday. Oh, yeah. The problem. Yeah. No problem. But you aren't anomaly, I think, for a lot, you know, compared to a lot of writers. So just first of all, you know, what are some of the tools you use to get in touch, you know, with people? So for example, you interviewed Carrie and Laurie, you got in touch with people in the neighborhood. What are, you know, people are always saying, how do I, how do I figure out how to contact my subject? Do you have any tips for places to look and ways to get in touch? Absolutely. And it varies from the different books. And some of them have been more challenging than others. So there are many different paths. This one, again, it was 2016, there were newspaper articles. One thing I might have done, see, I have like many tools, there are many tools in the toolbox. Sure. Go directly to one of the, one of the journalists who wrote one of the stories and asked how could I get in touch? Because obviously they were in touch and it would have been a professional courtesy. But I found I didn't need to do that because I saw Carrie's name, Carrie and Laurie's name, and I went to Facebook of all things. I found them on Facebook. I sent, I believe it was Laurie, I think probably sent Laurie and Carrie each a private message on Facebook and guess what? And I told them back how much I love the story and I'm a children's book author and I'd like to write their story. And I want to add, I would never have written it without their support and encouragement because it was their story. It was their story and they were so generous and excited and supportive. And again, this was a long journey. They stood by me all this time and I love it because it was, this was 2016, it is eight years later, they were still happily married in the same house, with the same neighborhood, the same neighbors, which doesn't always happen, right? But that's how it is and it's just been wonderful. So they were so very, very supportive and they were the ones who put me in touch with Brendan, with some of the parents, when I wanted to put something in the back matter about how to be an ally, which by the way, I'm really proud of this. You can download it, how to be an ally, also a short version of it in the back of the book. They helped me gather advice and tips from the people in the neighborhood, like basically the question was, how did you raise such great kids? And this is welcome everyone, consider how others feel, take action. This is all out of the mouths of the neighbors. So they were 100% helpful. So don't be shy about these things, sometimes, again, if it's an, if you found your person in a newspaper article, you can, you can contact that writer. And with beautiful shades of brown, I remember my story about Laura, we all are wearing the great painter, nothing had been written about her. And I discovered her through this fabulous painting she had made, the painting was in the Smithsonian. And so I called this with Sony. Sure. She's in the natural portrait, you know, and you say, well, they're not going to answer the phone. Well, of course they didn't. I was so persistent, I, I mean, I would call and call and call and call and go into voicemail voice. But I think finally I pulled a general number and I told this nice person at the general who answered the phone general that what I wanted to do and that once you're right. And they said, well, you know, I think you need to talk to so and so. And so he gave me, I said, could you give me that person's email as well? And and he did. And that's how I finally got somebody to, you know, the curator of that exhibit. But you know, I'm, I'm persistent. And if one thing doesn't work, you do another. Sometimes, again, so I think with Valentine's for all, that Esther howland who created the first Valentine card company, she was a big deal in Worcester, Massachusetts. And I found out there was an exhibit about her work in the Worcester Historical Museum. So I was on the phone with the Worcester Historical Museum. I go, you know, I think they once asked a bank robber, why do you rob any? He says, well, that's where the money is. So with the story is, and if one thing doesn't work, I try another it's, it's persistence. And you want to go to where the people know the people you're writing about. Whether it's to gather information or verify what you think is correct. Boy, Chris, I bet you can give a very good answer to this too, because I know you do a ton of research. Well, yeah, I mean, and like you said, I think it is different for every story. I have used social media. You know, I will say having formerly worked for the federal government as a public affairs officer, any federal agency, including the Smithsonian, including NASA, they have public affairs people whose job it is to interface with the public. So if you have questions from a, for a government agency, just, you know, search public affairs and the agency's name and you'll find somebody who can get you in touch for sure. So yeah, but persistence pays off. But just, you know, thinking about it from a mindset angle, I mean, you, you're a journalist. So you are used to speaking with people that you don't know and reaching out to people you don't know. But for a lot of people, just the mindset and the fear of what are they going to say? Are they going to tell me, no, are they, you know, it's really hard to just get over the mindset and get into the right frame of mind to reach out to somebody. So do you have any sort of like, how do you sort of gird yourself before you make that phone call? I mean, are you ever worried about getting a no? Well, first of all, I have gotten a couple of no's and there are, there's some, a couple projects that I put aside because the person I was writing about was just not supportive, was very did not was that supportive of me writing their story or the story of the person who's they were connected with. And I just let those go. But you know what? That's good to know. That's good information. Here's what I would say. This would be the advice I would give. It is very hard, you know, people say, oh, it's so hard just to get an agent, right? And then, okay, finally get an agent. And this agent is not a magic door, but it's so hard to even sell the book. It's hard for the agent to sell the book. And then, of course, some people just selling on their own. And then you finally, finally, finally get that book and you think, oh, I got the book. Well, you know what? That book is also not selling itself. Hello, you need allies to sell a book. You need people who are going to support you. And also, a writer's journey can be very lonely. We're sitting here alone writing this story. This story we wanted to be in the hands of children, right? We want to build bridges. We want to connect with all of these readers who's going to help you connect with readers, the allies you make along your journey. When you call them for help, when you call them for verification, you're also making friends for your book. One of the things that helps me a lot, Kirsten, is I always feel my books are not about me. They're not about me. I'm not asking for anything for myself. I believe in the importance of the story in the hands of kids. I want the kids to know about Carrie and Lori and the kids and the rainbow flags, because I think if they know this story, they too will be inspired to make their neighborhoods beautiful. So I'm not going to stop at anything to find the people. Well, first of all, again, I would not have written it without the consent and encouragement. But at the same time, we have now, I know of these wonderful friends. So we've been talking now for eight years, we're still talking when I go to NCTE in November. Guess what? I'm presenting on a panel on Friday, on rainbow allies. I'll be signing rainbow allies. And then on Saturday, Carrie and Lori are picking me up from NCTE, taking me to Natek, Massachusetts. They have already set up a signing and a meet and greet for me in their library. I'm going to get to be in the neighborhood, meet everybody, why? Because we're friends, because at every step of the way, I checked everything with Carrie and Lori. Did I get this right? Do you feel that this really expresses what happened accurately? You talked about creating those scenes, Kristen, well, I had to take some license to create the scenes. But I wanted to make sure the license didn't take me away from the truth, the emotional truth of the story. So I needed them to see it and read it and let me know if I was on target. And they were very happy with it. And that gave me the encouragement to go on. So again, when you reach out to these people, you have critique partners, right? Who are each other? These are your book partners. You're reaching out for book partners. People are going to help you when your book baby comes into the world and who are going to be as invested in it as you are with the same mission, which is not about you. I mean, probably about them, but it's about it's about getting this story into the world that kids need. So I love that. Take yourself out of it. You all working on the story together. It's a teen project. I love that. You love that. Teen members. Oh, I love it. Yes. Just reframe it. So it's not about us. It's not about all this important story. What a lovely note to end on. So we are, I'm going to put links in the YouTube channel. We'll make sure to have a link for your ally handout, how to be an ally. And let us know, you know, where can people get a copy of rainbow allies and how can people connect with you? Well, you know, you can always go to your local indie and request it. You know, you can go to indie bound. It's going to be a beaming books as the publisher. It's going to be obviously to Amazon and Barnes and Noble. My books are. And if you happen to be in Boston, in the Boston area, in November, during the NCTE, that's Saturday, I am going to be, oh, I'm going to be both signing this for educators on the Friday of NCTE. And on Saturday, I will be in a tick myself in a library signing books that are being provided by the local independent bookstore, 10 books and is the name of the bookstore. And we'd love to meet people with great pleasure. And if they want to reach out to me directly for, you're getting it from elsewhere and you want to sign bookflakes, so happy to sign one for you and mail it off to you. And thank you in advance for taking this story home into your community. It's my hope that this book is becomes like a rainbow flag encouraging all of us to know that we can make our neighborhoods beautiful simply by caring about each other, supporting each other, and we can help for each other. All right. And people can reach you through your website, right, Nancy? Is it Nancy Churnin dot com? It absolutely is Nancy Churnin, it's Churnin, like Churning Butter Without the G. So N-A-N-C-Y-C-H-U-R-N-I-N.com. And not only that, all of my books come with resources, free teacher guides, projects, all kinds of resources. I have wonderful resources for rainbow allies, not only the one sheet on how to be an LGBTQ ally, and also coloring pages. Sweet! There's a bingo card that my dear friend Dorey Lourner of the National Civil Rights Museum designed where just different activities kids can do. And now my friend Stephanie Fitzpatrick, who has her own book links company, has now created a whole new set of resources that I'm waiting for the publish to approve so that they will be on my website next. You're going to find so many great educational resources there. And plus there's a contact page if you want to reach out to me directly and have me help and support. Yeah. And get that book plate. The sign book plate. Absolutely. Yeah. Alright. Well Nancy, thank you so, so much. We really appreciate it. And we will put all those links in the YouTube comments. So thank you. And until next time, we will see you here on Non-Fiction Kidlet Craft Conversations.
