Radio Miraya
2718: Democracy in Action: Civic and Political Space
>> Democracy in action, a program on how state functions, featuring in-depth discussions with experts on governance, politics, and decision-making. Tune in as every week we explore the complexities of governance. What is democracy? What is your role as a citizen? All these and more in democracy in action, Thursday at 9 a.m., with a repeat at 9 p.m. the same day, stay informed and engage with democracy in action. Radio me right, the voice of peace. [MUSIC] >> Hello, and welcome to democracy in action. My name is Suni Martin. We are coming to life from Cuba this Saturday, and today we are going to be looking at civic and political space. What does it mean, and what are some of the challenges so far? The people of South Sudan are facing when it comes to civic space, and has the country prepared to conduct its first ever election in December, this year. Significance concerns still exist about an open, civic, and political space for citizens, participation in governance, the constitution-making process, and the election. Today we'll be discussing what exactly is a civic and political space, and what constitutes a restriction or infringement on a political and civic space. These are some of the questions I would be putting to my guest, who is very familiar to some of you, and I'm very sure you might have missed his voice and his writing. For some time now, I am joined here in the studio by Professor John Akich, who is a member of the National Constitutional Review Commission, and also the former vice chancellor of the University of Cuba. He joins me right here in the studio, and our lines will be open to you later on where you can call on 091-206-2079, or 091-206-2950, or you can call our MTN line 092-9686-297. Send us your comment or question to our SMS number 091-2177-141, and those are all of our contacts you can get in touch and ask my guest here, Professor John Akich, who is a member of the National Constitutional Review Commission, and also not long ago, it was the vice chancellor of the University of Cuba. Good morning, Professor, and thank you so much for coming to our studio. Good morning, Sunny, and thank you for hosting me. First of all, you are a member of the National Constitutional Review Commission, and people don't exactly let's begin before we go into the details of our discussion today. What's going on in the National Constitutional Review Commission? What is happening? Since it was reconstituted like in December last year, members were sworn in, and we have a number of orientations, part of it being, I think that was in January, there was orientation to where we went through, what are our roles, what are our duties, what are the things we do, things we don't do, the things that will actually affect our membership, but also about the concession making process, what process, we are being educated, the processes that are needed, and the institutions that will be involved, different bodies, and so on, and then we also came up with the, we have to come up with our own time shuttle, and the budget also will discuss, the budget that was prepared by sectarian, and then we look at different elements, for example, unmists like last week 17 and 18, they organized an orientation about women roles and participation in the concession making process, and in elections, for example, you know, what, how can they be accommodated, so we are being educated on different elements of this, we also had an early orientation about different components, things like federalism, what type of federalism that are there, we also got exposed about different practice, the experience of Ethiopia, the experience of Kenya, specifically expertise came also from the UN system. Okay, yes, and let's now go, we will have time for that some other time, I just wanted to find out what's going on now within the constitutional review commission in the national. Let's go into this issue of civic space. Professor, you are, you have written articles about civic space, and it has been one of the hot debates throughout the country, any event where you go, people talk about lack of civic space, and all this kind of thing. First of all, when people talk about civic space, what is civic space? I'm sure there is no golden definition, but we, different people will describe it in different ways. I would say these are all the channels through which we can get information about what is going on in the government, in the economy, in the business world, in politics, how do we get the information, and how do we interact with that information? Through newspapers, we get information to radio like this one, we can ask questions, we can ask brave questions, we can express our anger, we can express our happiness, and so on. So I think this is these are all channels. So I will say at the moment, and also you really need to talk about the content. What is it that you are interested in? What is it that, you know, does it, for example, the government, does the media, give all the people, you know, the ways of, you know, what is it that is happening, and or what is it that the government wants to do? The political parties, what is it that they want to achieve? What is that manifestals? So those are the things that are of interest to the public, because after all, they are the owners of the, of the, you know, as citizens, that the beneficiary of the government, they have the government is for them, and is from them. So I think this can be defined, but also when you talk about channels, there are different channels, like we have now radio, before I left, I think there was a noir language, like what you and yeah, it's time to do. So it's actually going to reach different audience, because not everybody will say speak English, for example, and it doesn't mean that you have come to school. You are also a citizen. Some people actually are not yet, they have access to education, but they have the right to be here. We also have the social media. We have a lot of what's up group. So so I want to, I would really say that, that's why the fact that people will talk about narrowing specific space, I don't think so. I think there is whatever you want to control these days, you can't hear it. So you can't get it. If you want your voice to be heard, you can't be heard. I think when I was growing up, we never have something like this. Okay. And okay, why is a civic space very important for democracy, and also the protection of human rights, because there has been this narrative of you have the freedom to speak, but you cannot guarantee your freedom after the speech you have made. Yeah, it depends. What is it that, what you are saying? What is that will bring you trouble? I think what you said, and how you say it also is as important as that. So we have seen a few individuals who are going into trouble, but I think from, I am a participant in social media in what's up group, I think people have a lot of opportunity if they were being actually gone after prisons would be full, but they are not full. So when you put something as a professor, you know, you are very active on social media on your page. When you put something online, do you know my take time to read the comments? I try. In some cases, I, you know, I can't just sample, because there are few comments that I made that one time comment went into thousand, thousand, seven hundred comments. How can you read that? How many days you want to read one thousand, seven hundred comments? This is a busy person. So now many analysts, many political parties in this country, civil society, have also raised concern, even including the monitors to the everybody. What a life space agreement, the Troika's have also raised the issue of luck of civic space. Do the governor come forward and deny that nobody is being restricted, but still you hear this kind of voice is coming out. Now, what constitutes a restriction or infringement on political and civic space? Yeah, I think things, things like if you think, obviously, like newspapers, if you write an article in a newspaper and it happened that that the article, the newspaper, is not, is stopped from being published, then that voice cannot go out. That will count as a restriction to civic space. The other thing is that if you happen to say something really daring or somebody says something really inflammatory, and then the security goes after you and arrested, it actually frightens people about what they say. So in that case, people be afraid to express themselves openly because of that. So that means that they have been restricted in that sense. Or if the newspapers have not been allowed, there is something that you must say, then that's it creates fear in people to be honest and express themselves in the truest sense of the world. I think that's what, for my point of view, when you see people being victimized because of what they have said, then that one will, people, not everyone will be ready to go out there and say what they feel. And how does it impact citizens' ability to exercise their rights and freedom? I've just explained to you that if you get somebody being arrested, then, of course, you have to calculate what you are saying. So it sends a lot of fear because you don't want to be the next victim? I would say so. I would say so. Right, and also now we have this scenario about how do government policies or laws affect civic and political space? Most special here in South Sudan, there are talks of amending the National Security Bill, which is already in the parliament now. Because this is also the scenario where people are talking about issues to do with civic space and the right to assembly and all this. Yes, I think there is a lot of talk about that. I have to be honest with you, I don't really have mastery of the security, you know, law, what it says, and different clauses. There's so much information and there's so much interest. I've been interested mostly in economics how it is going, but in terms of legal matters, now what I have to say generally, even our constitution, we have a lot of laws which are very clear, let alone whether there's a restrictive, you know, now that article, which people talk about, I would imagine, is that it allows the security forces to arrest somebody without the permission of the, that's what you are talking about, is that right? Yes, so that's law. So I think it is up to the, it is law. When you say law is law and you have to revoke the law, that's what I would say. So it is upon the parliament to make sure that if there's a clause that allows the security, because the security are actually governed by laws, they're not governed, you know, when you talk about rule of law, it means the rule of law, not the rule of man or woman. And so, you know, you would imagine that there is a process, what you call due process would be carried out. You know, there is no need for even for somebody to follow me and you know, at night, you know, you can actually arrest me during the day. You say you have been arrested, we have got the law here, and you as a citizen, you know, you have to abide by the law and you go there. So I think the, also the process matters. It doesn't matter whether whatever the laws say, then you follow that and you do it in a good way. And if you think that what you are doing is legal, you can do it even by day. You don't have to do it at night. Yes, and some people will be really asking Professor that sometimes the articles you write, if somebody else is the one to put it out there, he or she will be in trouble. Now, people are asking, what role can the academia, civil society and others do in terms of promoting and defining the civic and political space in this country, because it seems like if you put out something there, you have to think twice what will be the impact of this. So what can be done now to at least some extent? Yeah, I have to say that I have never said anything that is illegal. I have never said anything that is not patriotic. I've never not said anything that is not intended for good. And I have not said anything that would disunite us. So for me, there's no force against good. There's no force against something saying something good. And I always say that as academia, we look at, you know, for all of us, we are not partisan. Some of us will be members of the pattern. But actually, when you come out, you actually say, what is good for the citizen? What is good for everybody? What is good for the government? Because sometimes, you know, the things I say, I mean them to be constructive. I don't say, you know, I just don't criticize for the city. I also provide you with solutions. I say this is, you know, wrong, but this is how we can do it. So I think this one is very difficult for people to regard that as, you know, as they know. Yeah. And no incitement there, you know, so. Now we are moving towards a very critical moment in the history of this country. Like I said in the beginning of my introduction that South Sudan is going to conduct its ever democratic election in December. Since we are 10, our independent in 2011. And now the issue of civic space is going to take the lead of the day where everybody is going to be talking about whether you like it or not. Somebody will raise a component about being restricted, being prevented and all this kind of thing. Between now and December and beyond, in your own opinion, as a professor, what do you think should be put in place to iron out or address the issue of civic space and political space? Like I said, you know, there is a lot if people actually get a lot of information and there are different WhatsApp groups, people express themselves. So the citizens are talking. And the members who are actually in the government are also listening to this. We have these different WhatsApp groups. They can actually be communities. They can be special interests and so on. So I see a lot of information going in. Any information that happened, like even this one, will be found. And people will share it and it will go. So I think, I wouldn't call it, you know, that there's no, I think we have a lot of opportunity to express ourselves than ever we have done. And so it's just like we feel, it's when we see a few people being arrested. I think that's where we feel that, you know, perhaps there would be consequence of that. Otherwise, if there was anything to compare, you know, the previous one, we had elections in the '70s for '79, '70s. I think we did not have, at that time, you have a pamphlet. A pamphlet will be actually shared. And it's the pamphlet that will be, the security forces, the agents will, they will always have security, you know, even those days, they will go. And they say there's an assignment pamphlet here. And then they will actually try to that. My good friend, Sir Naikul, a young, you have, you know, a typewriter. A typewriter was given to him by his uncle and he used that typewriter to write, you know, published articles. And those articles are, you know, used ronium and, you know, that time things were, and then they are shared and so on. They were actually sold like drugs, for example. There's a pamphlet here. So, but now it's very easy. It's very easy to send off information. Even you cannot control it. But also, there is also danger of disinformation. Yeah. There is also risk of hate to speak. You know, the, you know, we have arrests, for example. You don't know what happened. The, the person that was arrested. And then later on, so we have a video that where he's speaking. At the same time, we have a image of that person, you know, among armed groups. So now, you don't understand which one is misinformation. Yeah. You know, can, would you believe that he has said those things? But also believe that he is a member of armed group. Was that the reason that he was arrested? Now, this is where, where the idea of rule of law comes in. Yeah. For example, when Peter Jagbir was arrested in, in United States, they put it out clearly, you know, they, they, they have to find out they have the evidence and, and they put it on, on the website, every word can view it. That is transparency. So I think when you talk about civic space, I shouldn't be all about elections. It should be also about, you know, who has done what, why they have done, why they have been arrested. That actually will put people at ease and, and people will know and, and for, you know, very well, and this idea sometimes even, I live in UK for a while. And, and sometimes the security force can just go to a house, you know, take a person out, take them in the car, and they go, and they will not even comment. Until later on, if that person is released, then information start to come out, you know, people have been come, security coming and say, you lay on the floor, you have to lay on the floor. And, and some people actually had trauma. When they, they were investigated later on and found that they were not terrorists because, you know, we have our own, our own issues here, we talk about head speech, but then say Europe now is talking about terrorism. So sometimes somebody will be, will be, there will not be, you know, the security forces can come and rescue or do things that are eventually leave you, yeah, leave you traumatized. And sometimes other people are compensated because they, the media there will later on talk about it. Right. Now, you have mentioned a very important issue, which is also another major factor now in this country, issue of a head speech and this information. What collective role do you think can be played to tackle this? I know there are some, uh, angels trying to support, this local angels called defy head speech now defy head and they're trying to really tackle those kinds of things. But now on a broader note, what do you think can be done to contain the issue of what this information and issue of a head speech? I think it's everything must be by law, you know, because if you leave to somebody, you have to legislate that and be able to persecute people who have, um, if you read from the third to the first world, uh, key, you know, um, the, the, you know, you, I mean, the, the president of, um, of Singapore, he's a lawyer. The way he managed Singapore, he actually wasn't using, he was using courts. So he will take you to court and the court has a law there. If a newspaper has done written something that is defamatory, that is misleading, then that one, uh, Lee Kowu, um, then the, the, the, you are fine basically. So it was using courts to, uh, you know, to actually persecute anybody who thinks that is going out of line. Uh, he was regarded as an autocrat, but he was using legal means, you know, to, uh, if your newspaper is, is fine to Mike, you know, then you will go out of business, for example. Uh, if, if somebody, I remember an American academic written something accusing the government of corruption, uh, he took them to the court and the guy was fine. He was almost getting broke. So he left the country. So, so this, there are different tools you use so low, uh, can be used if you think that there's problem with heat speed rather than, uh, just arresting somebody and keeping them and later on releasing them. Yeah. Now, but that is another issue also because, uh, like you rightly put it, you gave an example of the UK way you have lived. If you are suspected of, uh, getting involved in something, like, for example, terrorism, you'll be taken and then interrogated and later on, maybe if you are found guilty, they will take you to the court. But if not, they will release you. But in our case here, you are arrested in common credo, you have nothing and all these, this is also the fear that is making many people to have, uh, the kind of, uh, believe that yes, there is a lack of civic space in this country. At that level, what do you think the government can do? Excuse me. I think, um, what, what need to happen is really education. And when you talk about education, it's for everybody, including education of the law enforcement agency. Um, I would imagine that, um, the, uh, the, the, the, the, the, the low investment agency can even change the methods of, of, of, arresting people. As I said, there's no need for, for drama, you know, and then later on, you find this people who arrested with drama are out. Yeah. And you think that so who actually judged the severity of what you have done to the extent that, uh, even murderers, murderers arrested in the, there's a very, that's the, the, the worst crime anybody can do to take the life of somebody else, or people, or act of terrorism. Um, actually law is a very forceful thing. You don't need drama. So I think this is the equation of culture, a culture, institutional culture. You have to have drama. You have to come in big numbers. You have to put somebody during the day, frighten everybody. But I think our people, uh, they, they are, they're the same, you know, whether the law enforcement agencies or the citizens, uh, they need to be educated. And that one takes a while. It doesn't mean you go to school. It's about, uh, as agreeing about what is it that, you know, we need to do how you need to sit to treat your citizen, even the, the wrong one. You know, the Aristotle was one time when he was there before he was, uh, he was forced to drink poison. Uh, his friends asked him to, to live, you know, to run away. He said, no, I cannot disobey the law of the country. So he stayed there. So citizen themselves, if they feel they're wrong. So I think the dignity of the citizen needs to be respected. Uh, and I think this is something that is going to take time. And when I'm talking about education, education is not really that you read. All right. It's a shift in the mindset, a shift in the mindset, uh, of, um, of individual for all of us, whether we are citizen, whether our business people, whether our politician, whether we are in the army, whether we are in security forces, you are a citizen and you are a citizen. You should be loving, loving, treat your citizen with dignity. And so there's no need because other people will be traumatized. Uh, if you are forced in a very, uh, dramatic way, you, after you leave, you later, you will see and they say, what did you do? Yeah, I don't know. You know, so I think this one, um, I think, um, time is going to be because not a question. This people, those who are actually in for enforcement agencies, they are not necessarily, they are not ignored. They are not illiterate. But it's the question of culture, the culture of drama. Perhaps we need to do that. And that will take time. Okay. Yes. If you have just joined us right now, you are listening to democracy in action with me, Sonny Martin. And, uh, in the studio here, I have a professor, Jonah Ketch, who is a member of the National Constitution Review Commission and also the former vice chancellor of the University of Juba. And we are discussing about, uh, civic and political space in South Sudan. If you've got any question, please do send us to our SMS number 091-2177141, or you can call us live on the radio 091-2177141 or 092-9686297. Or you can call us on 091-206-2950. Those are all our lines. You can get in touch with us here and ask your question to my guest, uh, who is with me here, uh, throughout the program of, uh, democracy in action. Broadcasting from the heart of the nation's capital, this is Radio Mariah. 101 and 101.5 FM, Radio Mariah, the voice of peace. One minute of peace, let's go. Peace, make us, make us. Peace, make us, make us. [Music] [Music] [Music] Hello and welcome to democracy. My name is Sani Martin and today we are looking at a civic and political space. Has the country prepared to conduct its first election in December this year and there are significant concerns still exist about the open civic and the political space for citizens participating in governance, the constitution making process and also the election. And I am joined here in the studio today by professor Jonah Ketch, who is a member of the national constitutional review commission and also the former vice chancellor of the University of Juba. Our lines are now open. You can call on 0912069 or 091206950 or you can send us your question to SMS number 0912177141. Those are all our lines you can get in touch with us here. We have a couple of SMS coming in here and this one is coming from Mario. Mario is writing from, um, Juba here in Moniki and this is thank you so much professor for your elaborate explanation and I agree with you that there's too much drama in this country. That's correct and his question is has a professor academia and now a member of the national constitutional review commission. What is your take on this drama happening between the SPLM and SPLM I/O where some members of SPLM I/O for example can disrupt or burn activities of SPLM in certain counties and also the the reverse is true when it comes to SPLM in certain areas where I/O are not supposed to, are not allowed to practice the democratic right. Is it healthy for democracy in South Sudan, a young country like this? That's from Mario. Another SMS here is coming in from Justin in Juba and he says what will be your recommendations to the party's agreement to ensure that they open up civic space where people can freely participate and he says the only event I have witnessed in South Sudan where people spoke openly without any which hand was the national dialogue. What can you learn from the national dialogue? That's from Justin in Juba here also and then another question here is coming in from this one says professor what do you think can be done before election or preparations are needed for a free fair election to be done in to be conducted in this country in regard to civic space that's from Joe Simon from a will in Northern Bajaras State. Yes this is an equation professor. Thank you very much Mario for your question about I think citizens are free and as I said it's very difficult to to lecture to people to say this is what you need to do and this is what you it's a development and for that reason sometimes it says that in some cases citizens have to be babysat in a way that you are really telling them what to do and what not to do it's it's like when a child is growing up parents tend to give them a lot of instructions about what to do what not to do when they grow up after 18 they will say now I will be free to say whatever I want to do so I would say I would say yes what is happening now is political immaturity by all of us whether we are members of SPLM or members of IO because what is it that and I think it would be really the the job of the leaders to to educate their members so that when you talk about multi-party system it means that you you have free space and free space means that I can go to this consistency which is predominantly maybe IO and the consistent that is predominantly SPLM now what do you do if you are fighting a person going to your background because you are giving me you I I need to campaign in your what you call your backyard where you may have actual majority but also I need votes from where you are majority and if you you you you oppose me in in my consistent where I am dominant then that is not healthy and I think there's no magic cure for that apart from education and I'm showing that education is is by bringing up the membership to be able to respect the you know their views and respect the views of others respect the right for others to campaign in your backyard and for them to campaign you know it's it's like that so I think there's no magic cure and the people who do this one are not necessarily uneducated but it's a question of tolerance and maturity political maturity means to be able to to respect other people views also to respect their rights to campaign in your own village and without telling them that no this village belongs to this party I think things like that if they are listening you know I hope this is the kind of thing you mean by civic education that please behave yourself you know allow others because you are going you are you are opposing me in in answer you know you are going to come to quite yoke next time you know what you know what am I going to use please my members in in answer I'm going to excuse your members in quite yoke no it's because I think it's unhealthy for everybody okay and just in your recommendation yeah this is about civic space I think the the I have to say that there's no nothing much coming from the parties I have to say that where are their manifestos because when you talk about elections it's about manifesto what am I going to do what am I going to do about economy what am I going to do about governance you know what what type of the government that we are going to have will we have a president or we have a prime minister elected by this because these ideas are there what do you stand for where that what kind of economy do you stand for market economy do you stand for what you call a you know developmental state whereby the you know the government take those are the things that what do you think about education the provision of health these are the things people are interested in but I have to say that since since the since I signed him the agreement actually they start to implement I have had nothing about the social policies the economic policies the education policies the health policies those are the thing that the government system those are the things that we need to be together what and we now can pick because it's really the democracy means the market you know of a marketplace of ideas the best ideas that you like to subscribe to the people whom you think that they can actually govern you and provide the things you need is this coming so I don't know I'm thinking I'm missing something I don't really see any manifestos yet so when we talk about elections what are we going to elect you for that's the question so that is coming from the party the parties are the one in the market of the politics they are actually in the marketplace to gain support so that they can govern they can and come and govern so what are they standing for I don't think I haven't had any message what do you stand for there are issues about federalism for example yeah what kind of federalism you are going to have you know is it a two tier level or the three tier level what kind of powers that these the entities are going to have can we talk about this can we open them so that we can see we can see what is best for us and have a consensus of that so I think this is what I have to say the dialogue will will emerge around these issues but we are not hearing this coming from any party at the moment very few now about what can be done before elections yeah I think what can be done by like elections we they need to agree really the parties need to agree whether there will be elections now they have not agreed so when elections happen we we are not sure because if some major say for example you get in any country there will be many parties but there will be two major parties at the moment the next major party is the IO which you know would of course this is a coalition government and coalition government is supposed to agree on everything but they don't of course so it's still the IO despite the fact that it is in the government seem to play the role of opposition kind of thing to the to the to the main party there as for them so we need to for them to agree and with the other parties they have not agreed yet we haven't seen anything I try to look through news purpose still they have not so if there are people who are not agreeing are you going to go to elections now they talk about closest agreement some of the things are not really reasonable like you think that all the those who left the country are going to return I don't buy that you know because people live by their own option they come back the government cannot bring people to bring them back what those were in Sudan has to leave they came back because of war there yeah but they were they were there to to get their livelihoods you know to to get jobs to go have access to help the same thing that people are crossing the border they go to refugees where they get the services and until things improve they are not going to come if you make that as a condition then I think it is difficult there are issues about the constitution whether a constitution making process the the information that was given out for example by the chair recently I read the interview by tamazi and he was saying that the constitutional review commission cannot tell people whether they should have elections it is a part who would decide because the agreement says that you have to do the constitution first of all pass it and after that you go to elections but it is it is the part is not to decide whether they can they can go to to do election so I think there is a there is a big question about you know what is elections for and if you say to elect the people so then we ask them to elect the people to do what to do what because you know we have this government now they if they want to do anything they can't do it yeah okay but if they have not done it and there's nothing new then what do the citizen gain from from another elections now if people say no we will get a few people I talked to little men they will and women they will say oh we'll actually reduce the big government okay you put it as a manifesto you say okay this is my manifesto i'm going to have one vice president i have two and so on they have not come with the manifesto time is running out this is one thing the other thing is the economic challenges that the country is facing the any elections we need money so so do you have money enough to do that i know that it costs a lot of money to have elections in some places it can be like $12 per head in some places be as this is a $1 per head you know to actually to do election and elections in in in countries like Kenya and a year now have proven to be very very very very costly yeah so um so i think there's a lot of gaps in the information there's a lot of gaps and so if you say you are going to have a wedding a wedding and you have not made the wedding the bride clothes and you have not picked the priest and you have not filled the then people are going to ask and you know and you are giving me invitation card to go to wedding you haven't even bought the ring so so we need to see this thing the evidence okay all right thank you so much professor join i catch and as we conclude what is your final remark in terms of the civic space what what should be the collective role of everybody in this country to ensure that you have a free civic space and people go about being without actually stepping on somebody's toe yeah i i think i i don't agree that there's no civic space the civil space is there because the technology allows us to be able to pass information that we want to do and sometimes even the government become very uh defensive when they find some information with all this information so the tool we have really is a double 18 it's really at the same time those want to mislead can mislead and those want to do good they can do good and information fact very quickly in in there is never in any generation being an opportunity whether they like it or not you know you will pass the information that you want the question that i also want to do people need to be constructive you you don't simply uh and and you also need to acknowledge when the government doing something good then you have to praise them and when they're not doing the good you have to blame them but also criticize them and also offer or alternative uh so i think the sadly i want to say that if somebody has ever done there are things that are happening now whereby you you get that uh you you are you are recorded are you are recorded without you know no consent no consent and then distinguish it and sometimes it's taken out of context because you know if you record me and you don't know when because you're in private we really take say brave things yeah but those brave things don't necessarily they say you know praise in the public you you can reside in okay this is how society so i think but if you have to address a person okay i'll also do it in a very gentle way all right to respect that dignity thank you so much thank you so much uh professor joana kate a member of the national constitutional review commission and also from our vice chancellor of the universe of jubba and that's it we have for you today my name is sanny martin stay tuned thank you (dramatic music)