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Right now, what I'm listening to is "The Family" by Ed Sanders, and it is a full, complete retrospective on the Manson family, kind of all of what they were doing to set their weird stuff up. It is amazing and incredibly detailed, great stuff, and there's so much more on there. And as an Audible member, you can choose one title a month to keep from the entire catalog, including bestsellers, new releases, latest stuff you got if it's all there. New members can try Audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com/smalltownmurder or text small town murder to 500, 500. That's audible.com/smalltownmurder or text small town murder to 500, 500. Now back to the show. - The best way to learn a language? Immersion, living where the language is spoken and using it every day. But if that's not in the cards this year, you can still learn a language the second best way, and that's with Babel. 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Returns are simple with package lists and paperless returns. Plus, FedEx Ground is also faster to more locations than UPS Ground. See the FedEx service guide for delivery information. So, what are you waiting for? See what FedEx can do for your business. Absolutely, positively, FedEx. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Express. - Yeah, and choo-choo. - Oh, yeah, indeed, Jimmy. Yeah, indeed. My name is James Petrogalo, I'm here with my co-host. - Hi, I'm Jimmy Westman. - Thank you folks so much for joining us today. We have an awesome show for you all aboard the Murder Tree. - There we go. - Pulling away from the station. Get your tickets ready. - Keep 'em out. - Keep your tickets out, I gotta punch the holes and you know how it goes here. We got our engineer caps on today, everybody. So, we have a great show for you. Wild stuff, and before we get to that quickly, shut up and give me murder.com is where you get everything. Your tickets to live shows, mostly. First of all, regular live shows. May 31st, Durham, you are up next, North Carolina. We're psyched for that, and we have Nashville. The next night, that's sold out. But we also have, in case so, so what if you're somewhere you can't make a show? - What can you do? - Virtual live show. Well, let's say you're listening to this show, like, well, it's the 420 show. This is past the 20th. Doesn't matter. Still available. It's available for two weeks after the 20th. Get it right now, just like a regular live show, except right in your house. Wherever you want to be, I don't know. Your car, your roof. - You're in the field. - I don't care where, that's nice. Laying like a field of wildflowers. - That's a great idea. - Ah, that's terrific. - Do you have a projector, put it out there? - Watch the show and then make love in the flowers. It's gonna be wonderful. Do that. You sick sick people. Do that and have lots of fun with it. Shut up and give me murder.com. And then also, you certainly want Patreon. - Oh, what's there? - Patreon.com/crimeandsports. It's all the bonus stuff. So get in there right now. You get, for anybody $5 a month or above, you're gonna get a whole back catalog. Hundreds of episodes that you've never heard before. Immediately, bonus stuff. And then new ones every other week. One crime in sports, one small time murder. - You get it all. - You get it all guys, all of it. So get in there right now. This week, what you're gonna get for crime in sports, we're gonna talk about the whole Oh, Tawny gambling disaster in baseball. And then other gambling incidents that have, they get brushed under the rug. Pete Rose is the only one where they were like, shine a spotlight on it. Everything else has been seriously pushed under the rug and lots of ones we'll talk about. For small town murder, we're gonna talk about something very fun, was Charles Manson a CIA asset? Was he? Yeah, it was the whole thing. A big conspiracy to take down the whole hippie movement and the anti-war thing and all that. We'll talk all about it. Some guy ruined his whole career and spent 20 years writing a book on this crazy ship. - This really hates that people are nice. - Wow, we're gonna talk all about it. And other CIA related conspiracy holes will go down there. So that said, I think it's time, by the way, patreon.com/crimeinsports to get that right now. That said, I think it's time, everybody. Let's do this, I think it's time to clear the lungs. Here we go, arms to the sky. Let's all shout, shut up and give me murder. Let's do this. - I like it. - Let's go on a trip. - Let's run, shall we? - All right, we are going to New Jersey. - Hey! - Not too far away here. Probably about a two hour drive from where we are right now. We're going to Long Branch, New Jersey. - Long Branch. - Long Branch, which, if it sounds familiar. - Yeah. - It's because you heard it on the sopranos and we'll talk about it. - Oh, yeah. - That's probably why. - Uh oh. - This sounds-- - You can't do enough research, James. - No, it's-- - Find out that we already did that. - No, no, no, no, this is, that happened once before. This is in central New Jersey on the east coast. New Jersey over there, it's a beach, kind of a, you know, touristy beach spot here. About an hour and 15 to New York City, about 40 minutes to Tom's River Township, our last Jersey episode, episode 437, sex greed invites vice principals. So, yes, population here, $31,734. - Wow. - So, a good-sized town. I mean, it's right on the water, so it's nice. Median income here, median household income, is about 65,000 bucks. - Doing well. - Which, it's close to the normal of the rest of the country, but the median home price, holy shit. - I can't imagine it. - $641,700. - That's right. - It's the water. - How do you do it? - You're on the beach. I think those people live in apartments that make the average, and then people who live other places own homes here that are very expensive. - Right, they didn't live here. - Yeah, motto of this town, they have two. One is the first seaside resort. - First one. - First one, which on the east coast, it kind of was. Like, as far as a resort, they kind of invented that type of thing, and they also call it the friendly city, which I've spent a lot of time in Jersey, and I wouldn't call much of it friendly. That's not the, even when someone's being friendly, they're like, "Hey, asshole, you need help or what?" They're willing to help you, but they're gonna call you an asshole and be aggressive about it. Hey, jerk off, you want me to help you change that? - Why don't you ask? - I don't know, expertise, you know what I mean? - I don't know, I'm in Jersey. That's what I didn't ask. - Hey, go fuck yourself, help ya. - Hey, cocksucker, you need to jump, but what? I'll help ya. - It's very weird. So it was a, emerged as a beach resort town in the late 1700s. So yeah, people started going there, like early presidents went there, and it was like, it was the spot to go. - 1700s sandals. - That's how it was, pretty much. In the 19th century, 1800s, theatrical performers would have their things 'cause people would gather there, just like in any of these boom towns. - They realized we'll go to where the people are. - That's right, where people will show up. So long branch in the 20th century, kind of wasn't really a theater hotspot anymore. It became more of a, you know, kind of a family vacation type of joint. You don't take your kids to watch theater generally, especially in Jersey, you know. - That seems like a nightmare. - Yeah, and then the Garden State Parkway opened up, and then people could get south easier, so then there was less demand for long branch here. Now on the Sopranos, long branch is where Adriana's nightclub is. The crazy horse that crisp buys her and they kill somebody in there like that thing. Yes, that is exactly, that's, it was in long branch. I remember they show up, she's blindfolded, and she says, "I smell the ocean." And then she gets inside and says, "I smell piss," which New Jersey is a good mix of piss and ocean. It's very nice. - I smell fish and piss. - Yep, and then the other, the house Tony hangs out in when he's hiding out toward the end of the series who's in long branch also. So long branch gets a lot of play there. Reviews of this town, quickly here. Five stars, Jesus Christ, this person is worthy. We'll go through this. Five stars, long branch has been booming after Hurricane Sandy and is a beachy, touristy city. Though the traffic gets a little much during the summertime, as you can imagine. It is what you expect when the weather is nice and everyone wants to go to the beach. Okay, there, good. Someone's logical, they go, "Yeah, I'm in a place where people want to be, what do you want?" The Pier Village is a family-friendly setting where you can both go to the beach for a day but get something to eat for dinner before you hit the road. There's plenty of parking, but you'll need to pay upwards of $10 to park for the day. - That's incredibly affordable. - For a whole day? That sounds great, yeah. - Wow. - New York City, that would cost you 75. - Oh my God. - That's a, wow. - Anywhere in New England is 50 bucks for a day? - Oh, super expensive. - For a day? - Yeah, it's a whole day. - I'm shocked they let you park the day. - That's a $10. - It's usually four hours. Get the fuck out of here. - And she's complaining. Wow, he's complaining. - Incredible. - Three stars, long branches as close as it is to areas like Red Bank and Asbury Park. Okay, as close as it is to areas like Red Bank and Asbury Park. Drugs, guns, and a lot of Hispanic people. - Oh my God, that feels racist. - It's not feels racist. - Is that why that feels racist? - I don't like drugs, I don't like people with guns and I don't like a lot of Hispanic people. Yeah, I think they were naming three bad things that in their mind. The beach is a wonderful summer spot. The winter's kind of dead. Gee, winter at the beach? - Yeah, surprised. - Surprised. People don't want to go sit by the ocean. We're windy and cold. I would love to see cleaner streets and the ocean. I have taken it upon myself to clean up the ocean area. - Is that right? - He is. This person's going to clean the ocean. - Just dragging the bottom. - Wow, that's pretty impressive. One guy's going to clean the ocean and recruit who I can. He's a crazy person going through the streets going, "Help me clean the ocean." - It's dirty. - That's to clean, help me clean the ocean guy. He's like a local, you know. - I think it's transient, sometimes it's time to talk. - Yeah, yeah, they'll go, five bucks, all right, man. - I need lunch. - All right. I've been in bad spots in my life, but I'm happy here with my family, but needs more life. Okay, three stars, it's a silly little city that has a nice beach and good school. - It's silly. - Silly little city. (laughing) - Tickle your nipple. - It's nice, yeah. Tickle your fucking funny bone here. The streets are clean and the parks are just great for young children. Parks good for kids, weird. There's a local pool alongside the beaches, just in case you don't much like the beach. Go in the pool instead of the big giant pool that's over that way. One star here, finally. Long branch schools suck and the town sucks. (laughing) That's why I moved and changed schools. The people and kids in Long branch aren't friendly at all. That kid got a lot of wedges. (laughing) Whole lot of wedges there for that young man, I would say. Sclog branch schools suck and the town sucks, man. Things to do in this town. Long branch ocean fest. - Okay. - Yeah, they should, that should be all the time. - Ocean fest. - Ocean fest, it's 4th of July. - Oh, it's a big deal around the summer. - It's a, they say it's the biggest independence day celebration anywhere in New Jersey. - Oh, okay. - Anywhere. - I mean the whole, the whole fucking. - They go pretty hard. - Oh, sure, it goes hard on. - The northeast goes pretty hard on the 4th of July. They do, so it's this, I don't know what they're talking about here, but maybe it is. I have no idea. - This is a false claim. - Yeah, they say crowds numbering in the hundreds of thousands have come for the last 35 years to this place. - Yeah. - From all over the place. - I'll bet that's true. - I'm sure. - Down the whole fucking coast. - It's just, people go to the water on those type of things here. They say there's sights, sounds, and sensations of the summer season. Jesus, that is, a lot of asses. Visitors can stroll the famous beachfront, take in the wonderful views. Same shit that happens every other time except there's fireworks probably. Enjoyed performances by dancers, musicians, clowns, and musical acts. Who brought the clowns? Sample from a smorgasbord of food vendors and check out the wares of crafters from all over the northeast. - Oh boy. - You can even see fabulous sand sculptures and meet a familiar costume character while catching some ocean breezes. - Oh, they dress up as people, too. - Yeah, it just sounds like a bad street fare. It's like Sunset Boulevard, but fucking by the beach, that's all. - It's beach times square. - Yeah, no good. - Yikes. - Hollywood Boulevard's awful. So, okay, that said, let's talk about a murder. Now that we're in New Jersey, it's a good place to die. Let's talk all about it. Okay, let's go back in time, some here. - A little bit. - Let's see, we're gonna go, that's a time machine. Things are swirling, clocks are winding. - Wind it up. - 1982. - Okay. - Let's go back, too, so yeah, we're going. Wow, it's 42 years ago, at this moment in time. First, let's talk about a man, Walter A. Karris Jr. - K-A-R-I-S. - K-A-A-R-A-S, Karris. Yeah, Walter A. Karris Jr., which I keep. I wanna call him Alex, 'cause of Alex Karris, the guy who played Mongo and Webster's father. Yeah, so that's just the same last name, and I just wanna call him Alex. By the way, he is one of the guys we'll talk about in the gambling, Patreon. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, he got suspended for a whole year. That's fucking hilarious. So, this guy, Walter, is a policeman, and has been married for 22 years. He keeps running for Oceanport Borough Council and losing. He runs every year and loses, so. How humbling. Just, yeah, I don't understand why he keeps doing it, but he keeps fucking doing it. And he is married to Anne, that's his wife's name, and they have two children, as of 1982. They have an 11-year-old boy named Walter again. The third. The third. And a 13-year-old girl named Christina spelled oddly as well. K-A-R-Y-S-T-I-N-A. Like, it starts out almost like crystal, and then busts into a Christina. (laughs) It's a transformer. It's a, yeah. Now, Anne's sister-in-law said she always made people feel like they were the best. Like, they were the best. They are, or they are the best. She makes you feel like you're the best. Oh, that's nice. She always had a smile. That's wonderful, who doesn't wanna hang out, somebody like that. She also, Anne, is well-known around here, where she's active in a lot of the political and social organizations. They really like that, huh? Yeah, they're much into that. He's a cop, and he runs for shit, and she's into all that kind of thing, and she's very into her children, protective of them, a good mom. They're making you feel like you're the best. And making you feel like you're the best. They've been married for 22 years, and they've talked about divorce a few times. Oh. Yeah, their marriage is at the skids, it's 22 years. It happens. People go through rough patches in 22 years, and it happens, and they talked about divorce a little bit, but Anne never wanted to get divorced. She was the one who never wanted to get divorced, because she said it would have brought shame to her large Italian family. Okay, it's that. Yeah, it's what it is. It's cultural, yeah. Catholic Italian shit. Yeah, it's the, well, the Italian families, they don't want you to get divorced. Well, my grandmother got divorced. This was like 1968. People came from Italy to tell her that she's a piece of shit. Yeah. What? Yes, she or her brothers flew over an ocean to yell at her, could not get divorced. I got to take a message to her in person. They flew across a fucking ocean for this. To yell at it, like in Godfather too, when they brought in Frankie Pantangeli's brother to stare at him and make him fucking not testify, that's exactly what they did to her. And she just ran away and moved to California so they couldn't fly. It was crazy, yeah. Wow. That's how hardcore it was. That's serious. Yeah, as they did not want you. And this is 82, it's a little bit later, but still, sometimes it's a little much. And also for the kids, she didn't want to get divorced and be-- There is that. They were a respectable couple, and she didn't want to be broken up and be a broken up family. You know, that's not what she had broken home, you know? So March 20th, 1982, Walter and Anne are going out on a date together. Okay. That's nice. Yeah. 22 years, if you're going to stay together, you've got to be able to do things together and get away from people and the kids. It's also impressive if you're seriously considering divorce and you're still doing date. Not that's nice. Yeah, well, I think the divorce thing kind of comes and goes. Wains and ebbs and flows type of deal. So now they go to the movies and they spark their car and they start walking toward the movie theater. Now, Walter here, they're near an Italian restaurant that's near the movie theater. Walter said, "Ah shit, I got to go back to the car. "I've left the keys in it. "That's not good." So I got to go back and get the keys. That's not good. It's going to get stolen. So he runs back to get the keys and says, "Wait here, I'll be right back." So she's hanging out in front of an Italian restaurant. It's a pretty safe area, you know, not terribly dangerous or anything like that. Then diners in the Italian restaurant thought they heard a woman scream out Walter. Okay, like multiple times. Now, Walter comes back from getting the keys and finds and lying there on the ground bleeding like crazy and gurgling and she's been stabbed 22 times. Oh, Lee. And her purse has been taken. Yeah. Yeah, she has no purse. Her crucifix has been taken off her neck, the gold chain. Robbed. Yeah, and her purse has been snatched. Robbed and stabbed like crazy. 22 times is a lot. That's not normal for robberies. Robbery is let go of your shit. Yeah. Two, three, and then I'm gone. Enough to get you to let go of your shit and I'm getting the hell out of here. He's slashing even, not even stabbed. But 22 times is like, fuck you. Yeah, you're going to die. I want your purse. I want, yeah, the purse, you could get the purse before 22 stabs. You'd think after like three, four. Yeah, they'd probably go, okay, fine, you know, you just punctured my lung, take my purse. But so people freak the fuck out. She dies. Wow. She dies in the street, literally bleeds out in the street as they wait for help to come. In front of an Italian restaurant. In front of an Italian restaurant. No, that's, that's not one of the scenes from an Italian restaurant. Why'd you leave that one out, Bill? That's not exactly. Walter Renee anywhere in front of the restaurant and got stabbed right on the ground. It's not the same thing. Fucking Billy. No. Oh man. So, yeah, the people freak out. I can't imagine. Because, you know, just nice woman's been slaughtered. No, nobody saw it. They heard her scream out Walter, which would make sense. It should be calling for her husband to come help her. You know what I mean? Because he's a cop too, I'm sure. He would probably jump in there, I assume. Probably carry it. Either carry it? Yeah. I don't know if New Jersey's one of them, but in a lot of states, cops are required to carry firearms even off duty just in case some shit pops off. So maybe, I remember that from Beverly Hills Cop. Oh yeah. I'm required to carry. Cop's actually in Detroit. Cop's are required to carry firearms at all times. So, this is, it's a nice area. It's a tourist. Where people go out to dinner and go to the movies, that's, they do not want local government. This is the last place they want murders. They want people to go out and spend money and have it be thriving and do all that. It's the worst way you could do it. So, rewards are posted and a trust fund set up for the children by the coworkers at the police force of Walter. And it's horrible at the wake. Walter collapses and sobs and he's grieving my poor wife. And you know, everybody's, it's horrible. I mean, Jesus Christ. How do you? How do you? 22 years. They've been, you know, they've been married since he was 20. Right. They're both 42, 43 years old. I mean, this is what they've been together. But he gets cheered up pretty quick, actually. Yeah. Someone said cheer up bitch. And he said, well, I know how to do that. He has seen very shortly after the funeral, like within a week, hanging out in Hoboken at the train station with a 21 year old named Mary Claire Williams. That was quick. Yeah. I mean, that's a lot. 21. It's 21, he found. And he's like, I need to get really cheery really fast. This is, I'm super depressed. And relive with my 20s. Yeah, that's, yeah, I'm going to try to go back. I didn't want to fucked up. I didn't mean to get married to have those kids. I'm going to go back and relive my whole life here. So one of the policemen that works with him said, we were all just a little surprised. I mean, he just buried his wife. Yeah. Like it's really just. That dude, that dirt's still loose. Yeah, that's just odd. But I mean, people have weird reactions to stuff. Maybe he's very lonely. And I mean, who knows? You don't know how people feel if they've been together for that long and they die and the kids are there. I get that it sounds bad, but maybe it's not bad. And from her perspective, though, it's even weird. Or I think not, yeah, I think it's more. Ooh, the same model to the widow. This guy just, he's got loose dirt and stuff. Yeah. Still want him. Yeah, this is hot. How do you? Hot stuff right here. You're on a date with your wife a week ago. Hot. Hot. Now, the thing is, this is not new. They've actually been together for like two years. Oh. He's been banging this 21-year-old since she was 19. Oh. Yeah. Oh. Since he was like 41 and she was 19, they've been together. That's so weird. That is stuff's getting weirder and weirder here. Oh, good grief. Yeah. Now, a little bit about Mary Claire Williams here. She moved to this area with her family from Illinois when her father got a job as an executive director for the Family and Children's Services in Long Branch in 1974. So that was when she was a kid. And then he left there to go into business for himself, for himself. Now, her sophomore year of high school was 1977. And she went to Shore Regional High School. Yeah. And the following year, she lived with an aunt who was a nun in Illinois. Yikes. She spent her senior year with a nun in Illinois. So-- Go into a Catholic school probably, right? Yeah, she went to Red Bank Catholic School during her senior year. There you go. So that is-- Oh, repression. Well, no, she's not repressed. She's out on the surface. No, it's not repressed. She's just rebelling against us, yeah, kind of thing. She has a friend of hers who's a child here. Yeah, in the '80s, this kid's in eighth grade or something. That's her friend? That's her friend because I guess Mary was a Catholic-- one of St. Dorothy's CYO-- the basketball, CYO basketball, Catholic youth organization. I guess I should say, if you're not from the Northeast, you won't know what CYO basketball is. And she was a star basketball player. Mary was. And then she began coaching sixth, seventh, and eighth graders in another CYO league. And that's how she met this young girl. She's mentoring her, I guess. So she is described as a coach. They described her as not as a coach, but as a woman. They know who she is. Because she's young, so she talks to the kids. And they said she was someone who sought out love, but rejected it at the same time. Yeah, she was a fierce competitor, they said, with a run-and-gun style on the court. But then easily persuaded and easily hurt off the court. So not the same-- doesn't have the same attitude. Her teammates said she was a troubled teenager who had an outgoing personality, but still wasn't-- didn't make friends easy, which is really weird. Everybody keeps calling her a paradox. That's what they always call her. She's outgoing. Outgoing, but doesn't make friends easy, which is the opposite of what's usual. And on the court, she's really aggressive and everything, and then off the court, she can hurt her very easily. So it's interesting. They said that when she had a friend, she'd give that person everything she had. She'd just dump everything into this friend, which can be overwhelming for people. And that might be why she doesn't have as many friends as she liked here. So yeah, they're all-- she's a basketball player, basketball coach. And she said-- this is her young friend-- said she'd do anything for anybody. She came on a little too strong in an effort to be light. I loved her. Every time I had a problem, she talked to me. So then Mary goes to the Grace Institute, which is a secretarial school in New York City, run by nuns. I'm going to be a nun secretary. Why do you want to be taught secretarial things by nuns? Answering calls for nuns? I don't know that the nuns run a school, a secretarial school. Yeah, it's run by nuns. The principal sister, Marie Morin, said she was a very outgoing girl and always full of life. You always knew when she was around, which is half-- that's a backhanded compliment, you know what I mean? That's one of those. You always knew. She's loud. Yeah, she ends up working for a law firm for a couple months. And then she does take general reception work from her secretarial background. And then she ended up getting a job at Bear Stearns, which is the brokerage firm in the financial district in New York. It's a big one. Yeah, so she ends up meeting there. And she would commute. She met Walter commuting to New York City by train from Oceanport. They were on the same commuter train together. That's how they met. She's on the way to Bear Stearns. And he's on his way to the police department. That's it. It's up north of here, the police department he works in. So she was really looking for somebody to devote her life to, her friend said. And when she met Walter, she's like, there it is. Cool, you are a child. The love of my life. And also, he's married with-- he's been married longer than you've been alive. You're 19. And yeah, he's got two kids. And she's like, nope, not going to worry about any of that stuff. They said, once she hooked up with Walter, her friends all said she had no time for anything else. Really? Her one friend said it was a whole security bit. She wanted someone there all the time. She pushed everybody off after she met him. She was one of the only people I trusted in the world. And I don't know where it turned when I don't have her to talk to. This is why. It's very weird. She would tell her friends that, listen, I don't be offended, but I have no time for you anymore. I only have time for him. She would tell them that. I fell in love and-- Is she hot? Yeah, I mean, she's fine. She's pretty. What the fuck? Yeah. They said, until she met Walter, she was a great friend. And then all of a sudden, she was like, I have no interest in you. Fascinating. Yeah, they said that she was very good sympathetic ear. And not anymore, not after Walter. She didn't want to talk to anybody. This is like the girl of your dreams when you're 21. When you're 21. To get a girl that's that fucking devoted to you. Yeah, you feel good. Yeah, look at that. That's what loves me. At 43 and you're married, you've bitten off more than you can chew here. You know what I mean? I have kids. So yeah, this is while he's running for the third time for the Ocean Port Borough Council. And so he's got like a true politician. He's got things going on. He's got some things that get some things on the side here. He could fuck his whole thing up. So they would hook up in New Jersey Motel rooms, all class, all class. He said their first date, quote, Mary got in the car and said, we didn't have to go to a movie. A hotel room would be fine. Don't we don't need to go out. We're fucking. That's it. Food? Who's who needs food? Let's just go fuck. Give me your cock. That's it. I eat cock for dinner. It's incredible. He said it was once a week after that. What? Oh, yeah. Then they suggested she said, well, why don't we just commute together by car so we could save money? So they did. He said, so we ended up with more time together and there was more chances for motel stops so they could hook up more often here. Hey, everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about curology. Let's get our skin nice. And the curology is the thing that can do it. We are excited. I know that much because we are getting sent these products here and we're very excited. Curology makes personalized prescription skincare products. Wow. Fantastic. Their prescription skincare uses a combination of three clinically researched ingredients, making it way more effective than non-prescription cleansers and moisturizers alone. It's really easy to you. Just fill out a quiz about your skin, share photos, and a provider will prescribe a personalized formula based on your skin's unique needs. Because everybody's face is different. We're all different. Everybody's skin is way different. So, curology products give you everything you need and nothing you don't need without fragrances or parabens. I'm waiting for mine. I can't wait. I know yours is on the way. I'm very excited. Get your skin treated. Yeah, get it nice. That's what I'm saying. All you need to do is visit curology.com/smalltownmurder for a special offer. That's curology, c-u-r-o-l-o-g-y.com/smalltownmurder offer only applies to your first box, subject to consultation, new subscribers only. [MUSIC PLAYING] Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about the safest sponsor that's ever been Simply Safe. Oh, simplysafe.com. S-I-M-P-L-I-Safe.com. Springtime's coming here. So you got the spring, you got fresh air, fresh starts, and you clean your house. That's all fresh. It's also the perfect time to give a fresh look and simply safe home security. Make sure your newly cleaned, nice house is secure. That's important. Well protected, yeah. It's the only security system that Jimmy and I will use. And we recommend it highly. We both have it on not only our studios, our houses, anything we have that needs protection, Simply Safe is the way to go. It's so easy to install that even we can do it. You guys will love it because you'll feel secure. 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That's what I mean, especially if you're a married man and all this type of shit and you're having an affair. Don't be knocking people out. She's got no about this, right? She also got a boob job as well. She said, "I figured if mine were bigger, "maybe he wouldn't look at other women." That's her quote. So it's not for the right, it's, yeah, this is all a mess. Wow. Three days after her first abortion, or our second abortion, she spoke to Anne on the telephone. Why? Yeah, well, Walter had left his wife and went to move in with her from in December of 81. And then a month later, he moves back out again. But anyway, Anne calls here after Walter ended up coming home, so this is January of '82 and said that, quote, "If I didn't leave her husband alone, "she was going to wipe the streets of Oceanport with me." Yikes. This is like Carmella Soprano telling you that. She's not flying. 'Cause that's how I picture her, yeah. She said the wife also called her a tramp and a whore and then hung up on her. Yep, that's all about, right? That sounds about somebody that isn't afraid of a divorce. Yeah, I think Carmella Soprano said that to the Russian girlfriend, like almost exactly. You're a tramp and a whore and then hung up on her and that was that. Ah. Now, Mary said, "I didn't mean any harm. "I just needed to be loved and he told me he loved me." She doesn't care about that. She's been married for 20-some years. So... He doesn't love you, he loves his kids. Yeah, that's what he, yeah. So five days after Anne is murdered, she, Mary, calls the police in Hoboken to report a threatening phone call. And they said that she said an unknown man called her and said, "Haha, you're next." And hung up on her. So shortly after Anne is in the ground, she moves into the house with the kids and everything. Yeah. You can't do that. Walter sister Patricia said she was too pushy, or yeah, too pushy, too possessive, too domineering. And she said that the kids didn't want her there. She's barely older than them. I mean, it's tough. So then shortly before Christmas, she moves out. And the relationship kind of ends at that point. That is because Walter found another chick. And this one wasn't good enough anymore. So it's all worth, take a hike. This guy pulls fucking trim like crazy. This is why, I don't know. He's an asshole apparently, but... So, yeah. I'm not good at it. No, no. I could never do that. Wow, I didn't never mind 21-year-old. That many women? I found another one. Yeah. So Mary was working as a secretary at Bear Stearns at the time, and she moved to a 30th floor apartment on East 95th Street. So Upper East Side in Manhattan. She found a woman roommate, it was a two-bedroom apartment for $1,000 a month on the Upper East Side. Good luck. That is wild. That is hilarious, a grand. That is hilarious, unbelievable. So this is Walter's sister Patricia here. She says that it was hard on the kids, their first holiday season without the mother, and then he's bringing this girl in, and then she's leaving, and it's really, really strange. She's this Patricia, so she's very angry. I love how you have to stutter through that, 'cause you don't wanna say sister Patricia. Sister Patricia. Hey, sister Patricia over here. How new you work, how are you? Yeah. Her name's Patricia Gitzy, too. Oh, Jesus Christ. G-I-Z-Z-I, so I'm like, this is hard. 'Cause she's married to another kid over here. So, yeah, she said she's very upset. She says she wrote a poem to put her rage into words. Oh! She says I was emotional while I was writing it. I felt a lot of anger, too, even though I was writing about Anne. He, whoever did it, is still free, because months have gone by. And so she writes up a poem here. You got it? That's all. She lit up our family with her happy smile. Now we have darkness and grief across the miles. We visit her grave from day to day, and all we can do is hope and pray. (laughs) It's not that good. No, it's a shoebox, hallmark greeting level of poem, but I mean, she's got a motion in it there. There's a red-dressed level rapping. Oh, yeah. That's kind of a, yeah. It's just-- Day in Ray. And day in Ray, and he's got a whole, very, very complicated rhyme scheme. So she wanted to publicize the poem so people would see it and feel compelled to come forward with information. Yeah, think about it. She said they're not saying anything about the murder in the newspapers. It's discouraging, and the little bit that builds up, it builds up your hopes. So then she said, "Sometimes I feel I am grieving the most, "for I was the one that would like to boast. "Bost about a sister-in-law is wonderful as Anne. "She was kind, generous, and always had a helping hand." This sounds like a fourth grader wrote. I don't mean to be dick, but it's kinda-- It's very Adam Sandler in "Mr. D." Yeah, it's-- It's bad. It's bad reading cards. Roses are red, violets are blue, it's what it is. The words keep flowing, the questions in mind. Why this to her? It wasn't her time. It's very night before Christmas. I feel so bad 'cause-- So she's processed and you're gree. Yeah, but she didn't need to put this out publicly. I wouldn't put any poetry out, especially grief poetry. I hope you'll be caught. I know you're insane. You're rotten and cruel, whatever your name. I think someone wrote that about Jack the Ripper. So May 28th, 1983, it's 3 a.m. And Mary Williams, Mary Claire Williams, is sitting in her apartment on the 30th floor on the Upper East Side, and she calls the police. Yes, she said, "I can't take the pressure anymore. "It's about the murder of Anne Karis in Long Branch." 3.45, she had finished her conversation with the police and they said, "We're coming to the city "to talk to you right now." At 3.45 in the morning. Sit still, we'll be right there. So then she called a lawyer that she used to work for while attending the secretarial classes at 4 a.m. Oh God. And yeah, so she had kept in touch with him a little bit here and there, and so she needed his help. So she called him and said, "I'm in some shit. "You gotta need help here." So 6.30 a.m. police call the lawyer from her apartment and they told him they were returning to Monmouth County with her. There were questions to answer, and they said she hasn't been charged with anything at this point, but they want to talk to her and she has information about a murder. So then the cops are with her. She tells them a whole bunch of stuff and they say, "Will you make a phone call "that we can record?" She says, "Sure." So she calls Walter. Yeah, she calls Walter. This is from the telephone call on May 29th and I'll give you the script here. He says, "Hello?" She says, "Hi, hi, how you doing? "You're not working today?" She says, "Walter says, "No, no, remember "I took a three day weekend." And she said, "Oh, oh boy." And he said, "What?" And she said, "Billy," meaning this county investigator, called me back at my girlfriend's house and he says, "Uh-huh." He was a little upset. Walter says, "Yeah." She says, "Because I called him so late, you know, "'cause I told him I'd like call him about nine o'clock." And he says, "Yeah." I called him about 10.30, "Yeah." She says, "And he said that and he said, "Well, where are you?" And I said, "I'm in Spring Lake." And he said, "Well, I'm a little tight. "I'm a little tight up right now, it's a little late." And she says, "And oh my God, I'm so upset and oh fuck." So she talked to an investigator is what she's saying. He says, "It's a game." He's playing a game just like he did with me. Remember? He said they wanted to see me and they never saw me. I thought about that after I left last night. Remember what they did with me? Remember that I said Billy and long branch police Lieutenant Peter Johns both called and they said they wanted to see me? And she said, "Uh huh." And he said, "And how I would react." And she says, "Well, I remember that. "My God, Walter." He said on the telephone, he said that he was making, he was talking with a man named Riley, who's a police detective, and that he told him some interesting things and said, "You know, Mary, you should really know this Riley." And Walter said, "Yeah, he's playing a game. "You don't know Riley." And she said, "Walter, that's one of the people I told." And then she stops. One of the people I told, he says, "You fucking idiot. "You fucking idiot." That's his response. "You fucking idiot." So she says, "What if he talks with Father Bradley?" And she says, "No." Walter said, "No, he can't." She said, "Walter, he can talk with him." And he said, "Aham, who's Riley?" She said, "I don't know. "He's some guy, a friend of mine brought along to wear "when I met him for drinks one day." And he said, and he just blurted it out to him. She said, "Yeah, I kind of had a few drinks in me." - What, you can get drunk and then just start talking about murders? - Murders, he said, "You fucking idiot." (laughs) Which is like his pet name for her at this point. He said, "All right, just tell him all right. "Here's the game. "You've been in state because you were cheating with me, "and then she got killed, "and you're putting yourself through a guilt trip. "You didn't go into any detail with this guy, did you?" And she said, "No, I didn't say a word." I just kind of said, "Yeah, I know a man named Riley." So he says, "No, I mean to Riley. "What did you say?" She said, "I told him the whole story." Walter says, "You fucking idiot." - She doesn't get it so far. - She does not get it at all. So he then says, "You know," or she says, "You know, "what if they start talking to some more friends of mine "and some people they know?" And Walter said, "What do they know?" "Yeah, that's a great question. "Who have you told what?" - Who, what the fuck is happening? She said about four people know. - You fucking idiot. - Nope, you dumb bitch at that point. Went from you fucking idiot to you dumb bitch. (laughs) - That's incredible. - He said, "You have to keep your mouth shut from now on, "and if anybody says anything, you just," you know, he starts that bullshit. You say, "Look, I'm on heavy, a fucking guilt trip, "and in my mind, I already believed, "you know, that I had something to do with it." (laughs) - You dumb bitch. - You dumb fucking idiot bitch. So he says, "Aham," and he says, "Okay." But in fact, I didn't and Billy, I didn't Billy and I know, I don't know what that means. Sure, I may have said something to these fucking people, but I may have been drunk out of my fucking mind. I was, I was drunk out of my mind when I said that, and from what Walter had told me, I pieced it all together and I made myself the villain because I was on such a guilt trip. Here's your story, I'm giving it to you. - I'm on a guilt trip. - That's what you tell, I felt guilty. That's why I said I had an involvement in the murder. So she says, "Walt, then what if, "why would he say to me, "Listen, Mary," he said, "I better start thinking, "thinking hard and do what's right "to make things easier for myself. "Listen, Walter, if he's getting too close to settling it, "all right, my God, I think we ought to just, "I think we ought to turn ourselves in "because he'll make it easier on us." And he says, "Sure, then what? "What, what does that do to my kids?" And she said, "I can't worry about your kids. "I gotta worry about myself. "If they're gonna solve the case and get us, "all right, then we're just gonna sit, "that's just gonna sit us in jail." And he says, "You are going to spend the rest "of your natural life and so am I "in fucking prison if we open our mouths. "If we shut up, the drunken boast "in a fucking bar doesn't mean shit. "You fucking idiot." - You dumb bitch. - Dumb bitch. He said, "If he had that much conclusive evidence, "he'd be down to Spring Lake to pick you up. "Understand that?" She says, "He's, let me tell you something." And Walt says, "He's pushing us to the limit." She said, "You know what I think he's doing?" Walter said, "He's," and she cuts him off and says, "I think he knows everything and he wants to help me out "and so he's not." And he says, "Sure." And they said, "Coming to get me." And Walter says, "Sure." She says, "He's gonna let me sweat it out "and he's gonna maybe give me until Tuesday "and come get me. "I can't be embarrassed like that at my job "and have to have him pick me up there. "It's murder. "Your job doesn't matter anymore. "I think I'd be a lot easier if I went to him now." She says, "He says, "Don't do it, Mary. "Please, hun, don't do it. "You'd be a fool if you did it. "We both know it just be fucking idiotic "as you are a fucking idiot." So she says, "My God, Walter, they gotta know." This is the cops are listening to all this. He says, "No, they don't have to know anything. "They've just been fucking fishing. "Somebody could have just went in and said, "Look, I don't know how true this is. "She was a drunk son of a bitch "and she kept admitting this. "If you pull yourself together right now and say, "No, fuck it. "How I, Billy, how I was drunk is a fucking skunk. "I don't know what the fuck I said. "You're home free. "They can't do anything." And she said, "Well, he mentioned, "he said they were checking things out on Visa, too. "He's Visa card. "He said so, so I have a knife here. "Don't worry about it. "Keep your mouth shut." She said, "I can't, what?" And he said, "Keep your mouth shut and we're okay." She said, "Yeah, but the knife that," and he says, "Mary, shut the fuck up, basically." She says, "When you took me to Woodbridge, "that knife wasn't the same that's on the Visa bill." He said, "It doesn't matter." She said, "They can go to Herman's "and check out the knives." And there's, he said, "So, so what?" I'll say, "Hey, the fucking girl must have made a mistake. "I don't know anything. "Mary, please, please, I beg you, please." I'll say, she must have rung up the wrong fucking product. - I'm in the wrong knife. - Yeah, that's all. She said, "Walter, I don't know what to do. "I think it would just be a hell of a lot easier "if we just," and he said, "Mary, don't do this." He said, "Went and told him." And Walter says, "Mary, please, what more can I say, "but please, we have made a fucking mistake "and we're both paying for it now. "Let's not pay any more and make other people pay. "Your parents, your work, your boss, every fucking body. "Think about those people. "Think about my kids. "We've done one fucking injustice. "But if we shut our fucking mouths and just say, "Yeah, I may have boasted Billy, but, you know, come on. "I was fucking drunk out of my mind. "Didn't know what I was saying." She says, "All right, look, my girlfriend's comin'. "Listen, I gotta call Billy to meet him." He says, "Uh-huh." She says, "I'll have, I'll call you back. "I'll have, I'll have to call you back "after I have a meeting with him." He says, "Mary, please, I'm begging you "with all my heart and all of my fucking soul. "Please don't be fucking stupid. "Keep your mouth shut, please." She says, "All right, listen, you're gonna be home. "Listen, stay home." He says, "I'll be home all fucking day." - I'm not going anywhere. - And I ain't goin' no ways. And she says, "All right." He says, "I've got the runs like you have now, "but we gotta keep strong, okay?" - What? - He wants to run, not even shitting himself. - Oh, okay. What? When did they talk about that? - Look, I got this shit's real bad. - Just like you. - It's like you, you dumb shit. He said, "We gotta be strong, this is the time. "This is the one last fucking push." She said, "All right, well, Walter, let's say, "let's say it's the one last push, okay, "but we don't know what they have, okay? "And let's say he spills it out in front of me. "Remember, when you told me and you went over it with me "and if they come to me and they tell me "they've got this case solved and solved "and then here's how it was done "and here's what you did and here's, "remember you planned all that?" He said, "Yeah." (laughs) - Idiot. - Who's the dummy now? - Who's the dummy now? That's what I mean. - You dumb bitch, Walter. - You balled to you dumb fucking idiot. She said, "And you said we both deny everything." - Uh-huh. - She said, "If you talk, I'll deny. "If I talk, you'll deny." - Uh-huh. - Yeah. - She says, "Walter, if he knows everything "and he says, look, you better just tell us "'cause we'll go easier on you. "If they do that," she said, quote, and then Walter said, "They're not gonna go easier, honey. "You're not gonna get a deal. "You're talking about life, life, life, "the rest of your fucking life." - Murder stays dead. - Murder stay murder, as they say on the wire. No deal, no nothing. And you can't claim insanity or any other bullshit. You went with me to get the knife. I mean, you went with me to get the jacket, the hood. We planned it, it was perfect, we did it, and it's over. - Oh, you idiot. - You fucking idiot. - You said what, Walter? You can't say now that you didn't know what the fuck was happening. If he spills the whole thing, he tells you, don't say Billy, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about, honestly, you have to be cool. You can be, I know you can, you're tough. Now baby, pull through it. - She's pointing at the phone. See guys, I told you. - This is good tape. Tape fucking rolling, flying, see it going. She says, "What?" - Yeah. - Repeat that. - She said, "What?" - What? (laughing) - I don't know, pull through what, I don't know what. And he said, "Pull through it, you can do it." I think he's pushing you to the edge. They haven't got enough to get an indictment or you'd be fucking indicted already. On this guy's statement, you could be indicted. Okay, they can go get you to a grand jury and convince them that you've got enough involvement to indict you, okay? She says, "Aha." He says, "And they haven't." Which means they don't know for sure and they need you to collaborate what you fucking said to this guy. You could say, "Man, I don't know what the fuck I said. I was so fucking drunk and I did some drugs and some shit." You know, I just took some drugs. She said, "Yeah, but you know I don't do drugs." He said, "You can say it. "You can say anything and they can't prove it otherwise. "Just say drugs, I don't fucking care." She says, "All right, listen, I'll call you back." And he says, "Be cool, honey, please. "You can do it, I know you can, okay?" She said, "All right." And he says, "Okay, keep it tight, be good. "Bye-bye." - Keep it tight. - Keep it tight. - Your story, not your ass, you know. And she says, "Bye." So that's- - Idiot. - The cops are like, "Well, okay, "we know everything that happened now." - That was easy. - Yeah. So what ended up, what happened is Mary stabbed and 23, 22 times. By the way, how long were they married? - 22 years. - 22 years. - That's pretty amazing, isn't it? - Did she do it on purpose? - No. - No. - Just a coincidence. - No, she says later, she just fucking- - Just lost her mind. - Remembered him saying, "Make sure she's dead, make sure she's dead "so she can't identify you." So she's fucking hacking at her till she was pretty sure about it. So May 29th is the next day after the phone call. Walter is lowered to the L&M diner in Ocean Township by a phone call from Mary. Meet me at the diner. When he got there, he's arrested, of course. Yeah, so they arrest him and they charge him with murder, obviously. They also charge her with murder too. I mean, she did it. So the police say she's the one who did it, you know, so you can't just let her go. They're each held in a million dollars bond, or bail. The prosecutor said they are not seeking the death penalty because the crime was committed before the death penalty law was signed in New Jersey at that time. His attorney is pleading for reduced bail. - Yeah. - Yeah, he said that his client needs to be home with his children. - I don't know, he said he's got the runs- - He's got the runs, there's a lot going on. And a man who owns two pieces of property in the state is unlikely to flee. - I don't know. - Murder. - Yeah. - It's a big one. You'll leave your New Jersey property. - He's losing both, no matter what the- - Doesn't matter. Yeah, he's gonna have to pay his fucking lawyer here. Now the lawyer she called who she was friends with and worked for can't represent her because he's only licensed in New York. So she has to get another lawyer. And they said that her new lawyer said, "I don't think she's resigned to anything yet. "I don't think she fully realizes what she's up against." - Yeah, there's no way she knows. - And they made her seem like you're working with us. This is, you're part of this, you're doing great. And she even, wait a year what she says about that, I'll leave it to that. - So now the kids end up being separated from each other. The Karis kids. The 12-year-old boy is sent to stay with an aunt and the 14-year-old daughter to the family of a school friend in Oceanport. - School for us. - So she can stay in the same school. So I don't think it's good for them to be split up though. - No, and I don't like going to a friend rather than family. - They're 12 and 14. - The mom's murder. - Yeah, they're 12 and 14. - Oh yeah, that's minor. Yeah, minor that age. - 14, that's crazy. - So now a friend of Mary's here said that, this is the young lady who's, she was like a junior in high school while this is happening. She said that she saw Mary a few weeks before and she said, you never would have suspected anything was wrong at all. She said she doesn't believe that her friend could have committed this brutal murder. - Really? - Even though she admitted to it. - She said so. - Still doesn't think she did it. She said, if I believe she did it, it would be like my own mother did it. She was like my older sister and I know she wouldn't be capable of such a thing. - Couldn't even. - Well, she said, I'm going to visit her in jail as soon as I can. She said, I feel like she was there whenever I needed her. So I'm going to be there for her. If she did do it, she must have been in some state of mind. She was a very easy person, an animal type on the court, but sweet off the court. So yeah, they said she's angered by reports that her friend had a fascination with men in uniform. She said, I couldn't believe when I read that about her, no way was she a cop lover or followed uniform guys, no way. So it just happened to wanna fuck this guy. So anyway, they figure out that Walter bought a knife and a sporting good sporn to store and charge it to his fucking credit card like an idiot. - Oh my God. - Not even cash. That's how dumb are you? - He bought the murder weapon on credit card. - On his own credit card, dipshit. And on that night, he had Mary wait hiding behind a dumpster in a parking lot by the movie theater. - For the mother of his children. - For the mother of his children. She'll be walking by, I'll leave. And then she jumped out and started stabbing the shit out of Anne. She fled the scene and went to Atlantic City to establish an alibi. She threw the murder weapon into the Atlantic Ocean. - Really? - Yeah, it's fucking, which I mean, that's the first smart thing they've done. Her purse, which was taken, that was, they took it, she said, make sure you take the purse because then it'll look like a robbery, but 22 stab wounds and look like a robber. 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Based on shocking true events, Under the Bridge tells the haunting story of a murder that lays bare a small community's darkest secrets. Go deep into the hidden world of the town's tormented teenagers as detectives race to solve the sinister crime, starring Riley Keough and Lily Gladstone. Under the Bridge is now streaming with new episodes Wednesdays, only on Hulu. - She threw that into the river and we'll find out what she did with the stuff that she had in the purse here. So she pleads guilty. She's gonna plead guilty. She pleads guilty to the stabbing and she has to testify against him. So she's described in the newspaper as quote, "The pale 21-year-old Williams admitted to Superior Court Judge John A. Riccardi that she and Walter Carris conspired to kill his wife on the evening of March 20th, 1982. Williams stabbed the 43-year-old volunteer worker 22 times with a hunting knife, according to police. And she said he planned the whole thing. She said that she will testify truthfully and all that kind of thing. They said this is in sharp contrast to the jovial attitude she displayed at her arraignment where she was like laughing and giggling and shit. And they were like, "Tone that shit down." This is insane. - What are you doing, ma'am? - So in return for her guilty plea and testifying, they told her that the felony murder and armed robbery would be dismissed at the time of her sentencing and she'd be sentenced only for the like a regular murder here. She's charged with armed robbery 'cause she took all the shit obviously here. So they are gonna recommend a prison sentence of 30 years with up to 15 years of no parole eligibility on the murder and conspiracy charge. That's what the prosecution's gonna recommend. The judge tells her even though you're playing to this and that's your deal, it's up to the court. So you might get life. So that's on the table. Are you cool with that? And she said, "Yeah." - I can't go home. - Yeah, what else am I gonna fucking do at this point? I'm kinda in deep at this point. They said if you realize that if the court sentences you to 30 years, you'd not be released from prison for a minimum of 15, do you understand that? And she said, "Yes." And they said, "Are you doing this "'cause you want to plead guilty? Is anyone making you do it?" And she said, "No, it's just my conscience." So there she is in court, spills it all here, five hours of testimony and during his trial, they said it ranged from tearful confessions, girlish laughter, coy blushes and downcast guilty glances. - The whole gamut. - Wow, she met him on the path train in fall of '81. She tells the whole story. She said when she left him in Christmas of '82, she said, "I didn't love him anymore, "but I just couldn't handle the guilt." So, yeah, she said that helping police implicate him was quote, "fun," she said. She's not right in the head. - No. - She said, "It's like playing cop, "and I always wanted to be a cop." No, it's not. It's like they were making you, no. - It's like you murdered somebody who teamed up with the cop to get your accomplice. That's what it is. - When Bubbles thought he was a cop and they're like, "You're not a fucking, "we pay you $20 to get in fall." - Just go put some hats on people's heads. - Yeah, wow, that's wild. So, they said that his attorney said that she planned the murder herself and always with the intention of implicating him, she said. She considered it a game. Yeah, so, but we know from the phone call that's on it. - No, we planned it. He said those three words together. - The prosecution, by the way, this is fucking hilarious. They're, when they close their case, they play the tape and then say, prosecution rests. (laughing) That's the end of their presentation. Like, oh, by the way-- - The first mic drop. - The hammer is down now, yeah. - We rest. - Peace out, bitches. - We're gonna lay down. - Boom, what's up? - We're gonna be gonna cross anybody. - You know what? - We're gonna lay down. - You gotta fucking Sam. - You gotta do it. - Don't care. - Let me know when you're ready. - Don't care. So, she said between February 16th and March 20th, 1982, they began to figure out different methods of killing Anne. - Oh, boy. - Their ones they chose didn't take were shooting her. You know, it's kinda cliche. Staging a bathtub accident, it's tough. Killing her with an overdose of drugs and devising a mechanical failure in her car's brakes. So, she'd like pass out and careen off the road into the ocean. - These are all just a cold case files for season. - It's all, and he said, then they said, like, arm robbery and a stabbing ought to do it, you know? - Wow. - And he said to me that he coached her how to use the knife, even taped the handle with electrical tape so it wouldn't slip and she wouldn't cut herself. - Well, he told her what's gonna happen. - Oh, he told her exactly what it did. - There's gotta be blood everywhere. He gotta hang on to the same. - As she was to wait by the movies and he was gonna leave her momentarily. She said he was gonna look like the perfect husband in front of everyone's eyes. So, he would take her out frequently to establish that. To go out all the time. Oh, this is normal that we do. Yeah, this is the thing and not just the one time they go out. - Look at him working on their relationships. It's so nice. - Good guy. - Yeah. - So, during the stabbing, she said all that ran through her mind was Walter's words to her. He just kept saying, make sure she's dead, make sure she's dead. Don't talk to her because then if she doesn't die, she'll be able to identify you, make sure she's dead. - Wow. - And they said, did you hear her make any sound? And she said she gurgled. She said, I didn't want her to be killed. I just wanted him to get a divorce. That's what she said. She's headed for Atlantic City after that. Through her bloody clothes in the ocean, which seems like a weird place to do it. I'd just throw it in an Atlantic City casino dumpster. There's worse shit in there. - Just drop it on the corner in Atlantic City. - There's fuckin' people in those. - There's blood down there. - Yeah, there's like prostitutes in there. People just threw them away when they were done with them. It's awful. - There's blood clothes there. - She said she took out $60 in cash out of Anne's pocketbook, along with a gold crucifix and a big lie and a big lighter. She said, because it worked and I smoke. - Wow. - So it was useful to me, so I kept it. She said she threw the bag in the ocean, checked into the rits in Atlantic City, and went out to the Playboy Club to gamble. - Jeez. - She said she wanted gambling and paid for her Hertz rent a car in cash the next day. She tried to get the blood stains off the rug and steering wheel of the car, but she said then she gave up. She said either it's my blood or it's not. I don't care, I just wanna be caught. She recalled thinking, "Wow." So, wow, she said that he kept his distance from her for several weeks for decorum's sake. She said, "Oh, he drilled this into my head good." He said that if his in-laws, especially his brother-in-law, Tony Gaeda, - Tony's a bad man. - If he thought we had anything to do with it, he'd kill us both. - Both. - Yeah, no, Tony Gaeda's gonna fucking kill you if you kill a sister and your friend, he doesn't care. Yeah, he's dealing with a huge, crazy Italian family. It's not good, you don't kill one of the sisters. This guy was seated in the front row too. Like you bet your ass I would have killed you. - I was gonna get you. - It's still Mike, I'm gonna be honest with you. - You're still here, I'm still here. - So, she said in April 10th, which was less than three weeks after the murder, and when, quote, we were in the clear, that's when she started spending time with them. - In the clear? - In the clear, it's been 20 days since the murder. - 20 days, it's not solved. - They first saw each other by arranging an accidental meeting while he took his children to the Museum of Natural History in New York City. - Just be there, we'll be there at this time. - Oh, how are you doing? - And then she then accompanied him to a Lions Club convention in Atlantic City the last weekend in May, but she said, but she could not attend the social events 'cause he said, I don't want you to be seen with me 'cause it's too soon. Like you're my wife. - You're the Missouri obvious. - In June, she began to live most of the week at their home, and they even took a vacation in the Poconos, which we've done. - Oh, Jesus Christ. - We know what that's about from your stupid opinions. - That's a fuck mountain. - Yeah, you should definitely listen to your stupid opinions. There's a thing on the Poconos and everything else you could think of, the summer after the murder while the children were away at camp. - Wow. - It's been a nice time. She did tell a bunch of people about the murder during her stay at the house, and she said she told two different priests during confession. - Really? - You can't have a chick who's this Catholic help you kill somebody because she will tell a priest. She's gonna tell a priest, it's just it, yeah. She said, that's fucking funny. So when he learned of her confessions, he said, quote, you fucking idiot. You know priests can quit, don't you? Like he might not be a priest next week. - Right. - Fucking jackass. So by Christmas of '82, she said she was ready to leave, partly because of discipline problems she was encountering with the children. - Oh, she couldn't have-- - It's almost like you killed their mother and they're upset about it. - It's almost like they now have mental problems where they don't have a mom. - Strange. - A stranger is telling them what to do. - A stranger who's barely more than a child is telling them what to do. Strange, taking their mom's place. - That's telling us what to do. - She said, I said to him, I'll always love you and he said, I'll always love you. You know the normal things you say when you're breaking up. She said, and I said, we'll always have this thing meaning the murder to keep us together. Holy shit, and they asked her, of course again, how do you feel about him now? And she said, I'm just angry at him. So his defense is that she's a vindictive young woman who wove a web of deceit around her former lover after he broke up with her. - I mean, yeah, that's the only path you've got. - She said, the admissions on tape, how do you explain that? We're only platitudes uttered to a confused young girl who was constantly harassing him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he went through, this is what we did to kill my wife. What are you talking about? That's a platitude? Holy shit, they called the 15 year old daughter to the stand, which is crazy. She said she received a 4 a.m. telephone call shortly after her father broke up with Mary from Mary, and she answered the phone, and she said, quote, your father killed your mother. (laughing) - She's just rat in the mouth. - Yes, wild. And then she called back and apologized later and said, no, I was just upset, that's why I said that. She wrote to Christina, quote, I didn't mean what I said. I was just angry and upset for the way you and your little Walter treated me while I was dating your father. She describes that, she loves, I love your father more than most people and the love we share is more than most people have in a lifetime. And she said to put your mother's murder in proper perspective and let the memories of your mom live on inside you. And then Christina said, don't, that the last line, don't feel cheated for the time you didn't have with your mom. - Oh my. - That is fucking weird. - Gross. - Super weird, so yeah, the defense attorney said, listen, she's fucking nuts. He said they took her to a psychiatrist over here, right? Okay, so they said, she's nuts. She can't be trusted 'cause she's crazy. She said that presented psychiatric testimony, Dr. John P. Motley said after two clinical interviews with her, with the murderous as the paper called her, he diagnosed her as suffering from borderline personality disorder, which that sounds about right. She said, he'd explained it this way, which is a really weird way of explaining. There's a definite way to explain this. She said, he said, quote, it means she's on the borderline of being pretty sick, which is not what it means. She projected the responsibility of the murder of Mrs. Carris entirely on Mr. Carris. At no time does she indicate she was acting other than doing it for him. He said, such denial and projection is consistent with her disorder, and he believes that Mary should not be punished for the murder, or she believes that she shouldn't be punished for the murder, and that she shows no remorse or concern for the deceased. I agree with that. - Yeah, she certainly doesn't. - She was more upset that the kids were mean to her. - Yeah. - So they said, that demonstrates the skewed perception symptomatic of borderline disorder, other manifestations of the illness are on display, like narcissism, hostility, resentment, feelings of dependency, paranoid fantasies, and the tendency toward intense and unstable interpersonal relationships. - Yeah, she's super fucked up in that she like-- - They're the ones that push you to fight. - And when she gets upset, she goes the fucking furthest extreme that she can go. - To stick with the sopranos, she's the girlfriend who hit Tony with the steak. - She wanted him to come back and punch her. - That's what she wants. Yeah, it's a personal, she wants the drama. It could be anybody, but yeah, that's how it goes. - She didn't move the fucking steak. - Yeah, I love when he walks in and Junior says, what do you mean, steak? As he walks my smells and that's the funniest fucking life. So, the doctor went on to say, she stated that she had no choice, that Walter planned it, but she had to carry it out. And the doctor said it is impossible to determine if as Mary has accurately perceived and related the events. So, we don't know. Walter testifies. - Unbelievable. - He's gotta, he has to. - Awesome. - The only thing he could do. - Oh, I wish I could have been there. - That would have been watching him swim. - And only I wasn't just one year old. - Yeah, that would have been, yeah, if only we weren't fucking-- - Babies. (laughing) - So, he details his affair. He said that she came up to him in 1981. She, quote, she walked up to me and whispered in my ear, "Are you a cop?" And that's how they got started. - I don't know. - Walter Dick, cops will have their dick. - He said, quote, "Quite honestly, I was 42 "and she was a very young girl "and I was quite flattered by her advances toward me." - Yeah, that is nice. - Yeah, that sounds pretty good. He described her as a flighty young girl who contrived to meet up with him as often as possible during their daily commute. He said, "She was making a pass for me." (laughing) So, yeah, he said that this affair contributed to his straining marriage. Well, no shit. Yeah, if you're fucking someone. He said, "I had taken an attitude. "I was disinterested. "I wasn't much of a father around the house." And then his wife told me to get out of the house so he checked into a YMCA in North Jersey. - Oh, God, you can stay there? - Back then, yeah. It's fun to stay at the YMCA. - Yeah. - That was a whole-- - That's hilarious. - For sure, but I didn't know-- - No, no, people used to stay at the Y. - Caught? - Yeah, you could stay in the Y. It was like a cheap hotel. - Jesus Christ. - Yeah, back in the day. They don't do this anymore. But back in the day, like the '50s and '60s, that was like where people would go. - That's gross. - That's a cheap place to go. - I got a planter's wart from the YMCA. - Yeah, the Y is not really going to sleep. But he said he never slept there, though. Instead, he spent several nights sleeping in railroad cabooses, like a hobo. - Yeah. - Yeah, he went to sleep in rail cars. He said that when Mary learned that he was homeless, quote, "It was like Christmas." She got very excited and told me to bring my clothes. She said she couldn't have me sleeping on the railroad. - Oh my. - Yeah, he said, "I told her she introduced him "to a friend as her boyfriend." And he said, quote, "I told her that that was not so. "I was not her boyfriend. "We were friends, and we were having a relationship." We're fucking, we're-- - We're fucking-- - We're friends who fuck. Okay, I'm not your boyfriend. - It's your boyfriend. - Yeah, he said that he lived with Williams from November 81 to January 82 when he moved back in with his wife. And that's when she called her and called her a tramp and a whore. And he said that he disputed everything she said. He said he never gave her a pre-engagement ring, which she said he did. He also said that he had little to do with Williams finding an apartment and that made their meetings more convenient. He said that he never promised to divorce his wife or anything like that. He does admit that he went to a store in Lower Manhattan with her to purchase a ski jacket, but said he did it only as a favor for her and he hadn't seen her in more than a month, so he went. She asked him to meet her after work with his car because she had to buy a large package that would be too clumsy to take home on the train. He thought the jacket was a gift for her brother. He said just as we were getting ready to leave the store, she decided to buy a ski mask because her brother would get a kick out of it, quote unquote. So he testified that they purchased the jacket and ski mask for her to wear during the murder. That's what she had testified. That's what she was supposed to wear. No, I was just giving people some gifts. He said she just wanted to go shopping. He said he brought her to Manhattan for an abortion. He said, quote, she told me she was pregnant. I was a real hero. I asked her what she was going to do about it. She told me she wanted to have an abortion and she said it was the first of two pregnancies there and she said that was a topic of heated telephone conversation between Mary and Anne. That was, she didn't like that. Yeah. Anne found out. Oh, geez. I guess she called one time Mary and Anne answered. Walter said, quote, my wife asked if it was that bitch on the phone, then she grabbed the telephone, called her a tramp in a few other words. She went at her in a way I've never really seen Anne do before. She did say she would wipe the streets of oceanport with her and then Anne went silent. I got to say, that's fucking great. Like, I'd never seen that. He was probably like, oh, my dick got rock hard when she started saying that. We fucked for hours. Oh, yeah, then Anne looked at him and said, quote, you had an abortion with her? And yeah, quote, Anne was really religious and it really messed her mind up. His wife then told Anne of the trouble she had experienced in conceiving children and then hung up. Anne was very upset that Mary had an abortion with my child, which is the opposite of what Carmella would have been like, I'll kick the fucking, I'll kick that baby out your ass. You don't need him an abortion, I'll do it. I'll do it myself because that was her all things. You're so scared Tony was going to do that. So Anne was upset that his baby was aborted. That's crazy. Yup, so anyway, he said that basically that he never, he had no part of this. It's all her and I don't know what the hell she's talking about. I knocked her up twice, I'm sorry, I made her crazy. Yeah, that's it. So I don't know, she was just making up stories and plugging holes, he said, which is a weird way to put it. You can't say that, it's not what... A, you've had abortions from having so much sex with this man and the wife had so many holes in her. You can't say anything about holes. No holes, that's what I mean, terrible. The prosecutor said to him, you wanted to play this game and keep playing this game. So somewhere along the line, you could get the brass ring and go to bed with her. She is terrorizing you and your family and you still want to spend your weekends with her. Is that right, you fucking idiot? Vertic comes in, seven man, five woman jury and six and a half hours of deliberation. They asked for the tape again to listen to. Yeah, and they're like, let's listen to that again. Can you get us a sick, a sick beat, too, that we can scratch over it? Yeah, yeah, it's like a mixtape would be good because I want to hear a different shit. He has found guilty of complicity to commit murder and armed robbery, felony murder and conspiring to commit murder, felony murder and armed robbery. So all those multiple counts. Bad guy. Bad counts, found guilty on everything. Now the sentencing for him, you sir, may fuck off. 70 years, no parole for 35. He's 44. He's going to be. That's 79. Yeah, that's not good. Good luck, Chief. You're not fucking any 21 year old Zen. I'll tell you that much. So the prosecutor said, obviously I'm happy with the verdict. I think the evidence indicated unquestionably that he was guilty of the crime. Therefore, I think the system worked. Yeah, he's never getting pussy ever again. Never again. It's all over for, especially not young pussy. Yeah, I don't think he's going to even get. No more new pussy now. He'll be like, "We just got out of jail for murder." You murdered your wife? I'm never fucking you. Then again, if he's still alive, there's not a lot of men alive at that age. He doesn't take any dick, they can get, yeah, yeah. Fuck it all. His defense attorney maintains his client was caught in a web of deceit woven around him by a spurned and vengeful young woman who decided to implicate him in the murder after he began seeing another woman. So she gets sentenced as well and she gets you, ma'am. They fuck off 30 years in prison, no parole for 15. So the judge went with the prosecuting guideline and she went to the women's correctional institution in Clinton. Oh my God. Not good. The time, oh boy. Yeah, not great. And she's eligible in 15 years. She's out. Oh, she's out, yeah. Oh, yeah. Way out, like. And out there. I don't know. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's what I mean. She's wacko and out of the place. It's a tux from something from your stupid opinion. She's out out. Yeah. Oh boy. She's out out. So there you go. Oh my God. There is a long branch in New Jersey. A lot of story. Keep an eye out for. She's in her 60s now. She changed her name, right? It's pretty common. Mary Williams. Yeah. There's a million Mary Williams. That's a dangerous broad. Oh, she's dangerous boy. And he's like, wow, I found someone who's dumb enough to commit my murder for me basically. And he's a fucking awful scumbag. And I can call her a dumb bitch to her face. And she's like, you fucking idiot. She's like, I know. I know what. No. God fucking crazy. So if you're 21, you hold the fucking, you have the power. You have the power. Especially if you have a vagina in your 21, you have even more power. You're the winner. Yeah. He's what's. Don't care how much money he has. You're still the breadwinner. You're still the breadwinner. If you like that show, tell the world about it. Leave a review on wherever the hell you listen to podcasts. Keep hanging out with us. Keep doing that. Listen to your stupid opinions. Listen to crime and sports. Check out our social media, shut up and give me murder.com also. Check that out. Small town murder on Instagram. We are at murder small on Twitter, small town pot on Facebook. So check all those out. patreon.com/crimeinsports, bonus material, tons of shit, $5 a month gets you everything we have. And also new episodes of bonus stuff every other week this week. The Otani gambling scandal that they just pushed under the rug like it was nothing. It's all is interpreted. Don't worry about it. And other gambling scandals that got pushed under the rug. And then small town murder bonus will be a rabbit hole of conspiracy where we're going to get silly. Man wrote a book and spent 20 years of his life ruining his whole career writing about whether Charles Manson was a CIA asset that was doing the whole thing for the government. We'll talk all about it. It's going to be crazy stuff. patreon.com/crimeinsports, you want to follow us on social media, shut up and give me murder.com, drop down menu, boom, boom, get your tickets to live shows, virtual live show 420 available for two weeks after that. Keep getting it. Thank you so much everybody. And until next week, it's been our pleasure. Bye. If you like small town murder, you can listen early and add free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com/survey. In May of 1980 near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week hosts Erin and Justin sit down to discuss a new case covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. With over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. [BLANK_AUDIO]
