Radio Miraya
2719: ROUNDTABLE: Land Tenure System in South Sudan
[ Music ] >> The round table. >> A very warm welcome to Radio Mariah, round table with me, Yash Gran. Today, we would want to understand the length in a system in South Sudan. The legal framework last file learned into public, communal and private land. However, little is known by the public on the rights and the duties that are related to each category. The existing land frameworks give the ownership of land to the people of South Sudan with regulatory role played by the levels of government. However, this goes against the widely held perception that the land belongs to the communities. The legal ambiguity that exists in interpretation is responsible for the land issues faced in the major towns in South Sudan, including Cuba. Land in South Sudan is such an invaluable fixed asset, always the info by individuals, communities, development partners and government press status. A economic value cannot be underrated in South Sudan, especially the competed for land in cities, farm land, commercial cities across the country. This explains the contestation, land grabbing and emotive sentiment attached to the land Tena in South Sudan. The land usage and its eventual viscosity make the scrambling for land in the towns reality to reckon about. Many of conflict drivers and resulting in security in South Sudan emanate from the land management policies develop over time and the ways these policies conflict with traditional understanding of land acquisition in the country. Joining us this morning to discuss this important topic, which are Honorable Robert Ladose, a person of South Sudan land commission. He will be joining us shortly. We have Honorable George Borang, a national member of parliament here in the studio with us. Honorable, welcome to the round table. Thank you. Then we have in the studio, Honorable Yarno is a member of South Sudan, a chamber of commerce, she is in other capacities too, but she is here in the studio as a member of South Sudan, a chamber of commerce. So, Honorable Yarno, welcome to the round table. Good morning. Yeah. Then we shall be joined shortly by advocate Gabriel Medina-Pash. He is a lecturer in the University of Dubai School of Law. He is on the way. The two will join us shortly, but before, as we wait for the rest to join us, let me give this opportunity to Honorable Borang. Honorable Borang had the opportunity to participate in the negotiation of comprehensive peace agreement in 2002 to 2005, and he has the memory of Yarno's system was an issue and is still an issue now. And what did they do when they negotiated this peace agreement? As I said in the introduction, a lot has to go into history. We have been joined by Malana Medina-Pash. Malana Medina-Pash is a lecturer in the School of Law University of Dubai. Welcome to the studio, Malana Medina-Pash. Thank you, Dr. Yamash. Yeah, I was seeing a citizen in the studio, Honorable George. Can you give us a background as to why they learned codification, that the land belongs to the community and now to the people and what happened when you negotiated comprehensive peace agreement with the led leaders? Could that include Dr. John Garang? Why did you say that the land should go back to the communities? What is the background to this? And what is the background to the current provision in the law, in the constitution and the land act that says the land belongs to the people. As we talk, welcome, Honorable Borang. Thank you, Radio, for a very nice opportunity to come and discuss about this very important topic, which has become a very controversial and an emotive issue among many other people. This led issue has a very long history issue pointed out. In the CPA, when we were trying now to resolve the issue of the Sudan, wealth was identified as one of the main causes of the conflict, in addition to the other reasons. So there was contestation on the issue of land. The government of Sudan, during all these negotiations, had wanted land to be owned by the government and they were invoking what was then called the original land act, which stated that all land that was not registered belonged to the government. For the simple purpose of the government now can be disposed with it and give it to any investor, it pleased. And I think that was used, what was used in many areas of the north, where the government gave land to other groups who were not indigenous to the land. They wanted the same thing in this house. So it's okay. Before EGOT process took off, we had pre-EGOT wealth sharing meetings in the S.P.L. and Miss Pele. Then I was a chair of the technical committee of the intellectuals. We then convened a workshop based on expertise and information from other countries. We invited professors from Macquarie, from Nairobi University. We got people from South Africa, from Angola, from New Zealand and Canada and Uganda to inform us about the land policies and so on. So, we agreed that the only way of protecting the land or giving, protecting the wealth, particularly the land-reactive resources like oil, minerals and so on, we had to give the land to the community. The government was saying okay, we can concede, but subterranean resources would bloom to the government. Other resources then will belong to the community. We say no. All the resources belongs to the community from the beginning to the end of the history. But it can be managed with the support of the government. The communities has the veto right. If they want any development, the government can assist the community in development. The reason we did that, because we wanted the group right to protect, because land is an asset. It is not just a place for shelter and so on, it is wealth. So, for that reason, we were able to win the argument that land belonged to the community. That was done in protection of the land in the South. Now, we succeeded also to invade that in the constitution of 2005. That constitution was based on that... The provision in the government... And then we had that thing in the 2005 constitution. Now, when we reviewed the constitution in the South, somehow we tampered with that provision. That was toward the independence... There was independence. Because we had agreed that the constitution way from we get in 2005 would in fact become the constitution, which is in the case, the South, CCC, all you needed to do was just subtract that part of the government and so on, and that was very in place. But we weren't ahead and even change about the thing. So, I think that is the reason why we got stuck with that provision that land belonged to the community, because that was a position earlier. And the thing then belongs to the people, was a new thing that people didn't know. And in fact, the constitution was not made available to many people. After now, many people have not seen the constitution. And that is the reason now. I think there is a need to explain why the change and then so on. Thank you very much, Honorable George. You have given us a background as to why our people who have not read the current constitution still believe that the land belongs to the community. And it was done so during the negotiation to protect land from the central government, then in this, in this done, that had the intention to give land to investors across the borders. That is it. Now, let's come to what the law says about the land. And we have a law lecturer at the University of Dubai here, Gabriel Medying, to tell us what do the laws and policies on land in South Sudan say with regard to the management and ownership. So, how is the land to be managed and who is to own the land? To whom does the land belong to us, but the constitution, Medying? Thank you so much, Dr. Jim S. Yaj for the opportunity. I think there are so many occasions that we have been discussing on the issue of land ownership in South Sudan. According to the law, land is owned by the people of South Sudan and its usage shall be regulated by the government. Ownership by the people is totally different from ownership by the communities. There is an interpretation of the law when it comes to classification of the land, where we have public land, community land and private land. So, the community land is what actually people perceived to be the ownership of the land. That land is owned by the communities. But in actual sense, it is owned by the people of South Sudan. Like another country, take example Uganda, land is owned by the people of Uganda. That is India Constitution, anything in our constitution in South Sudan. And then, it does not mean that if it is owned by the people, then there will be the one to determine how to use it and when to use it. No. According to the law, it has to be managed. Management means it has to be allocated to the people by the government. And when we say the government, it means the national government, the state government and the local government. And the powers by this government, they are concurrence. That means the state government has powers to allocate the land at the level of the state and the national government as well as the local government. So here, Victoria land is owned by the people of South Sudan and its usage is regulated by the government. There are some things that we would want you to give legal definitions to them. In a common language, community is a group of people who live together and so is a group of people. People underline the white people there. Then the construction of the land belonging to the people. So what is the difference in legal connotation of these two terms, the people and the community? Yes. Of course, some people will get confused because you get people within people of South Sudan. You get the community within the people of South Sudan. So, for example, as we are here in the studio, we are people, but we are not community. So what it means here, the difference is that people means all citizens of South Sudan. And then when we say community means a community is defined by ethnic background, by sharing the common heritage, by having maybe a similar language, by occupying a specific piece of land for time immemorial and they have a common spiritual worshiping. So you identify a certain community, maybe based on their language, based on their cultural activities that they do. And then they are called community. And just to take example, you can just say, when we are here in Jupa, you can say here, there is a body community, and there is a truly community, there is all these, these are communities. But all of them, there will be people of South Sudan. So bringing you to the context now, when the law says the land belongs to the people, it means that any other South Sudan is across the country from one community, let's say distant miles apart, can come and own land in a different locations. And yes, he or she has the right to own their land. Good question. And that is actually what people of South Sudan should understand. If you read section 13 of the land up, we say it's that right of citizen to learn. They say right of citizens to learn that right to to learn shall be determined, I mean, shall not be denied by the government of South Sudan, by state government, or by a community on the basis of sex or ethnicity or the religion. And then if you go on and on, you will find that subsection two will say that every citizen shall have access to land for housing, cultivation, pastures, grazing, fishing, as a share of sources. And this shall be regulated by the law and in relations. So here, you can see that if you go to anywhere in South Sudan, you have a right to own the land under freehold system. So long as you follow the legal procedures of having land a position. Okay, thank you, which I'll come to that later on. Let me come to Honorable Year Honorable Year. You have listened to the background to the confusion that is existing now in people's mind, not in the law, because the law, as Malan said, he talked to us is very clear. The background has been given to us by professor. What do you have to say with all this confusion that people still believe that the land belong to the communities? And indeed, the people should have the right to their land because land is part of their history, land is part of their identity. This seem to be taken away from them by the constitution now, or by the legal framework that exists. But there is a resistance to this. And of course, it could be a right to the resistance because, as Malan said, that anybody has a right to own land anywhere, but you should follow legal procedures. You don't just a potion to yourself, some piece of land and so forth. So Honorable Year. Right, thank you. My full name is Year Monoa, my joke, from the National Chamber of Commerce. Thank you very much, Dr. Robert. No, I mean... Yeah, I joke. I joke, yeah, I joke, yeah, boring. I mean, Dr. Boreng, and professor, for the elaborate definition and explanation about the land in South Sudan. For me, the confusion comes from the definition of community. Who is the community? The community for Kanun, as a professor, explained, who is the community? Community? Go ahead. It's all of us. Community is everybody. And if you look at what Professor Boreng said, that the purpose of talking about land belongs to community during the negotiation of CPA in 2005 was to keep this land for the people of South Sudan. And the community itself, the definition of the explanation, I saw, before the community, the community become a tribe, become a group of people. We know we have it there, but now, if you look at it, it has become the indigenous people of this area. Yeah, it will be the regard themselves, community, but that is not meant in the law. We want the government, the land commission, all the institution, the parliament to explain the meaning of community. I know the land belongs to the people owned by community, and they distribute it into three. Public land, they are owned by the government, community land, and then private land. To explain to the people, so they know exactly what does it mean. So when I'm in my village, where I was born, and somebody else is coming from another place, I would not start bringing some jargon that you are coming to to grab my land. These are becoming political jargon, grabbing the land, tsunami, I just move, grabbing the land in the law, fee and authorize. I said to come authorized person to be given that land, the process. So I was in al-Hakum Mazatu to tell the people how can you own that land. But because the implementation of the law did not happen from 2006 until now, from 2008 when it was passed and signed by the government into law. From 2009 until today, fee Hayat Nagyz, full Hayat Nagyz, regulations and policies so that it is explained properly to the people, what does it mean, community land, community land. I said that the government is out of the community, community, these are the people who are living in that locality. The definition of the community has to go to that, people give us the land. The issue of the token, because the government mind up ahead has to come to the communities that own the land, that they live on the land to beg from them. Yes, to take the land. Okay, but then who is now in charge? The usage of the land, the government, like a member of the distribution of the land, it was the last land, okay. So we know where to go and ask for a piece of 20 by 20, I said, other people who are coming from other areas to live in that small. Thank you. Thank you so much. Our listeners across the country and beyond, we have just been joined by Honorable Robert Lado. Robert Lado is a chef person of South Sudan land commission. Welcome to the round table, Honorable Robert. Thank you, thank you, Jack. Yeah, we, you got us, we began and we went to the background of why the background to the provision that is stated in the comprehensive piece agreement on the interim constitution of South Sudan that land belongs to the people of South to the community. And, and Molana, that was given by Professor George, and Molana just gave us what the current law talks about. So in your capacity, a chef person, a land commission in South Sudan briefly can you tell us what is your mandate as the commission and what is your take in all this confusion in the, in the legal jagons that exist in South Sudan before we, we go dive and can you further explain to us who has the right to own land in South Sudan and what are the limitations of the ownership because ownership must have limitation. Welcome to, to respond to this question, Honorable Robert. Okay, thank you very much. I can, my colleagues here in the studio, I'm very happy to join you. The land commission was actually created because of the need to address issues of land. It has come in the world sharing agreement that the issues of land are very contentious. I would not dwell very much in the past. Yes. Why South Sudan is opted to say the land belongs to the community. Okay, that was explained. That was explained early on. But in the world sharing agreement, and even in our constitution, say without prejudice to the powers of the court, the land commission shall have the following functions. One is to advise various levels of government issues of land, different levels of government. Number two, to arbitrate at the option of contending parties, issues of land. So if there is a clash between a community and community, government and government and whatever, my intervention would be at the option of the parties. It means they have to opt for it. Yeah, they have to call for you. Yes. That's how when people talk of land grabbing in Juba, I advise the government how to go about the issues of land. But I would not intervene if I'm not actually opted for calls. If the government calls me, a community calls me to talk about it, like how I address the issue of the conflict between the media, and actually in history, cultural on Obama and other territorial issues. And that was acting the next rest and other interventions. The other function is to recommend non reforms and policies of the government, also to kind of research on land. And the fifth one is when asked to intervene by the authority that is the office of the president, if I'm asked to intervene. So this is my limitation. I cannot sit as a court to judge issues of land, and when I advise the government, I don't go on air. I don't put it in the website that, you know, I've said this and that because I write directly to the government. A lot of issues that have been addressed by the land commission, one of which, you know, the area adjacent to the parliament was given to individuals plots 20 by 20, even one person already built there. You have to abolish that, because you said these are government institutions, and the parliament, you cannot have residential areas. And before they were demolished, actually there were some local wine places in there, where they brew local alcohol, a lot of other bad things. So these are a few things that we have done. And we had demolished a number of petrol stations, one of which, you know, it was close to the airport on the other side. Say this is a very strategic area. Seemed dignitaries near the airport to cover up them. So these are the few interventions that we have. The right on land, you know, we emanate from the fundamental freedom, the right on the right of mobility, the freedom of expression. Some people say speech, but I don't say freedom of speech. Speech is to utter words, but expression. This is the fundamental freedom and number of them. So to own this fundamental thing, it is not the land commission that it is in the universal declaration of human rights and other human rights instruments. All these fundamental freedoms are not absolute. So you have the right, for example, to own, and you have the duty to respect the ownership of that property. For instance, if I'm given a place by the government as my property, that's my right to own it, I cannot change it into a place where we manufacture contraband goods, and we use it for narcotics and all this. Immediately the government will intervene, because I have the right, but I have the duty to respect the laws on the ground. These are a few examples that we have. Now, coming to the issue of people and community, definition of a community is two prok. One is people who live in the geographical area sharing livelihood and common interests. Again, when we say common interests, we say community, for example, they think a community by a community is under community, but you also have the business community. When you say the business community, they share interest on trade and how to deal with their goods, like national shambal commerce represented here. So in law, we have to be very careful to use a word which has different meanings, which is ambiguous. Now, when you say people, people are people, community comprised of people, where the business community, where the tribal community otherwise. The weddings, in order definition, the wedding is different, classification of the land still remains, community land, public land and private. We have not changed anything on that. Southern Sudan is not a maroon island. We have done a lot of research in all the areas around in the region and international worldwide. In Kenya, they say the land of Kenya belongs to the people of Kenya. The people of Kenya means the various communities and ethnic groups. If they want us to qualify that, we can qualify. But what we have done in the land policy because of the chair pass or the steering committee, we have copied what is in the Constitution, the land act verbatim, what by what comma by comma, at the last dot. We are going to have community land law. Community land law will actually specify details. What is community land? Now, when we say the land belongs to the community and we keep quiet, a capable thing you also try, that I keep sending that, that you've been giving to foreign investors and in the process that is being killed because they assume 15 she went, they are not even one. Some people who burn charcoal in certain areas, I was discussing with the, why I checked the hella, burning charcoal for a long time, he assumed that it was the chief of the area. But the owner said, no, this guy was done burning charcoal for some years. How can he become a chief? So we have to detail what is community land. And when we define community land, the committee will compress traditional leaders, academia, and people who have walked in local government. Uh, these are the issues that we really have to address because if we say we are very open, if we say change people to community, we'll do it. But what next? We say the land of South Sudan is owned by the community. So when you're coming to classify land, there will be public land, there will be community land and private. Then we have to relate what are this classification relating to community. A person, because we say who is a Southern Sudanese? Southern Sudanese is a person whose parent or grandparent or he himself or herself, who are in Southern Sudan as from the 1st of January 1956. We have some people originally, they are not from South Sudan, but they are born in South Sudan and their parents and grandparents who are here as from the 1st of January 1956. Where do you take them? They are private people. Do you force them to belong to one of the communities? Say, for example, you know, I'm an Indian. I've been in South Sudan. Look, I don't tell me to become a barrier. I'm just a Southern Sudanese. Yeah. So the law has to be very sensitive and address issues so that you don't discriminate in the process and you don't include issues that are not included. So the issue of people and community should not go very much. We have to isolate problem from an issue. We have collateral migration. It's like, what are the sisters saying? Land grabbing. There is all this. These are either criminal issues or saving or issues that have to be addressed by local government. The law that will not actually give solution. There is no medicine. I'm not a person from medical background. There is no medicine that it is called to treat malaria. But we have received malaria, they don't give you the function of the medicine, but they give you the name. Thank you. Thank you very much. Honorable George, here is a situation now where we are getting ourselves in. You have given us historical background. We have given us the law prescriptions from 2005 to date as per by you and Molana. But then the crisis is at hand, the crisis of land, and especially in the urban areas, cities. We have seen land around, I mean, in big towns. You would get in Malacal, it's an issue. You would get in Wau, it's an issue. And more especially, it is intensified in Cuba because of the rural urban migration as a result of a number of factors. So what would be the best possible way to result in the question of urban land acquisition, especially in big cities that include Cuba? Because Honorable Yar and Lado have mentioned the term that Molana tried to not use it. There is a land grabbing. It is happening. So with all the confusion that the land belong to the people, the people have the right, the land belong to the community because the community are the indigenous owners of that land, as you said earlier. So what is the way forward, Honorable George Bryan? Thank you, Dr. Yach. I've heard the colleagues here in Robert, Robert and Mading, giving a legal opinion on the issue of land. We have a way in the problem here. In the problem, I speak as a representative of the people. Yeah. I represent geographical constituency, Dubunov, part of... Who is also called Dubunovari or... And then Dubunov is a very big area. It starts from north of Cóno Cóno, out to our border with our tiger. Okay. Along the river and then to the east, I mean to the west, out to Códa and so on. This is the area affected by this crisis. I got a lot of calls and a lot of things are happening relating to this land issue. The urgency of land reform now in urban centers actually really originate from Cuba. There must have been lots of people from other areas into the UN, Malachal and Prove, I think, or so. In the case of urban settlement, Duba existed many other levels of government before 2005. There was the province, there was a district, a sub district, and so on. They all housed in one building. There was no flash. Duba is the last of the movement of capitals. It started from Condokoro. It went to Laudu, Gebel Laudu, Mangala, in 1934 to Duba. So these capitals, South Sudan, they've been revolving around the Bay Area. This kind of situation about Rose. There wasn't nobody in the conflict with anybody. It is only after the CPA and everybody came to you, but that this phenomena is happening. So what do we do with urban settlement? I think these are two questions that we must address. Rural land or urban land, that I think urban land requires technicians because they are thinking that to take into consideration. When you take urban settlement, people must agree that this is the center and this is how we're going to be managed. Because a lot of people come up to put a lot of things of settlement in the city, the provision of services, who is going to provide the service, world-level government, and so on, in which area this will be planned. How you acquire this land, it is there historically. For example, when Rejaq was moved to Duba, the government then came and asked the people. Dubaq was the chief of YA. He said, "Don't visit chiefs." He said, "This is your land." So the decision between Duba-Nabari is a contradiction in contra-distinction to Duba-Nagila. The land, if you go to Minnesota House, you'll get it. Duba-Nagila is the land given to the government by the community. Duba-Nabari was the area now. Duba-Nabari say is ours, so it was divided like that and there was no conflict. It began to move from Hayemelakal, I mean, Kosti, Hayemelakal, Qatar, and Lobo. This moved. That is Duba-Nagila? No, yeah. Duba-Nagila begins to move. Yeah, you move through the law because you incorporate the villages, they also become a part of the city. You don't have to go grab the land and so on. But there were some parts here. My father also had land in Lobo and Kasab and all that. These were farmlands and cattle areas. We weren't cattle, but there was no way any conflict because the thing was done within the law, the traditional law. So these lawyers, as I said, were taking the law, the law. Who's law? What law? You can see in all this formulation, our law, the principle will be based on tradition and custom. The basic provisions principles are that the law will be based on custom traditions in the people of South Sudan. So the law, to be lawful and to be legal, must be based on the more or more or less cultures and traditions of the people. Others, it is a foreign position that will go in counter-contradiction to the traditional law. Our problem now, we are bringing laws, and I think many of our people, by the way, have not read this constitution. We are few of us sat and sat on a table with a few lawyers and dropped things, we called the constitution. It is not people's people. It is a foreign law. So you say, I mean, in the law, who's law? What law? And what is the interest? The law should not be against the people. My constituency now, look at these forced depositional land by our men and so on, as grabbing of the island by the government, because they are not consulted, the chiefs are not consulted, and they said they used in the law, and the people even didn't know the law. Every way, a traditional authority, the law, the traditional authority, in many things, the law, we have proper sharing and so on. What we are talking here is really land reform. The land reform also requires land law reform. We have not done all this. We want to do land reform, we done land law reform. So in parliament now, we are confronted with all these contradictions. We are talking about the law, and we define the law the way we want it, the people who are the people. There is a legal, there is an anthropological definition over the people. You cannot say, animals belong in the forest. Their forest has niches, elephant living in the other area, desirabs living there, the fish living with the sea and so on. There are specific zones that these animals in the forest live. They send to human beings. If you do the cadestral of the land, people look according to the specifications and they adapt to the land that they live in. They know how to manage it. They get into constant the law and so on. This thing called a community is a people with a group interest, language, culture and so on, and we recognize cultural rights. So how are you going to do that with that land? If you bring people, for example, you have the rights to your traditional region, you bring a group of people more than the people. Then you end up with assimilation. You therefore, you are threatening the group rights, the cultural rights of that group of people you have, going contrary to all the below rights, that recognize traditions and cultures and so on, with massive space, way out of function. Now you say you can mix people as you please, then you go contrary to this. How do you manage this? So we need a law that can really help us, not to create conflict. If you get a law that over-generates that this belongs to the people amorphously, I go to any place and see it because I have a right to develop something. Even people are going to people's houses and you were here. Somebody goes, "You can't get the hell out, right, to be here." So these are issues. I think we need a proper care. The law must be reformed to be for people, most suspected traditions, and livelihood and cultures of the people. So we need land reform law and then you come to land law because land management and land distribution are different issues. In a particular context, we need to know really what is it that we want to do. When we're reforming the land, what does that mean? We want to reform the land. What does reforming mean? We want to liberalize the land so that it is accessible for development, for example, or what? Okay. Professor, before I come to, I can see my being an honorable year, we want to interject here, but before I come to that, I won't ask to go back to the center of our question. The calamity at hand is that the Yuba, your constrictions as an area member of parliament, if I may use this loosely, not take it strictly, is being invaded because people have to come and settle here. And you have to live with South Sudanese who are coming to this area, but then the area is limited. But the people you represent have the right to the traditional right to the land. So the government must beg them to give the land to the people of other communities that live with South Sudanese who are entitled to to live in this thing. So now, Yuba Nubari has been encroached into without permission as the Nagila was used using, I mean, mispronouncing these things together. Now, so what is the way forward? How do we step out of this? I know, you said we need lay reform. And lay reform is a process and that and I discussed the need for the permanent concession now, so that these reforms are offset. But then this is situation at hand, the concession making process is not coming forth quickly, the land reform is not coming forth quickly, but the land that is that belong to Nubari, the land that belong to to to Bari is being taken over by exploding population. So the situation at hand, how do we move out as a area member of parliament? That is an excellent question. As things stand now, by the way, there is a problem of even administration in Yuba. Yuba, Yuba County, for example, is an almost state. It's very large with only one commissioner. So the empty space is down there, that anybody can do anything that is doing. The other counties, there was about seven commissioners, only reduced to one. So you have empty spaces there, where there is no government, there is no control. Two, it is not natural that the city will increase its eye, it will exploit it. In many cases, there should be a synergy between the local government and the national government to help manage this population coming. But the way I look at it, this is not happening. Why are people coming to the city? It is the city, they are proud to come here. They come because of opportunity. They come because of security. There are many reasons why they want to come to the city. But the city, the government considers a dynamic neighborhood that lives in the city. They say this everybody has a right. So no one knows what should be done. People who come to the city need a place to live in. The government, the national government and the settlement should sit together. There is a lot of land which has been misused. From here to the corner, if you built real estate, places were habitable with the government and the state government giving resources, the land probably would not arise. A accommodation in the United States can be easily done, give the national government and the settlement works together. I went to Monaco. Monaco is about five square kilometers. There are five million people there. These women can take the whole population south of that. It is not the place to shelter only. People come here, especially the the one in government. They want to be in government. They want to farm. They also want to do things what they should be done by the rural community. So before, it doesn't matter whether we go to Ramshul in other town. If we don't manage and organize the way things are done, we'll continue to have this in place. So the current problem now requires immediate intervention. The government should come. There are a lot of places which are given to individuals for no good reason. Big, good, habitable, affordable houses. Then they can manage the issue of land and avoid the issue of land grabbing. So the takeaway from your contribution in professor is that if the national government, state government, local government sit down, consult the local community, then the local community will generously give the land for other South Sudan needs to settle in as they did with the colonial organizers, the Nagila, as they did to them. Because the land, they were consulted, then you gave the land, sat down, consulted among his leadership, and gave the land to Nagila city to be built. So this is what needs to be done then individual moving out and cut for them piece. Yes, before I come to an honorable year. Yes, I just want to interject, interject on two reasons. First is the limited explanation. What I mean is that the discussion was not actually meant for a Juba city. Right. I will talk briefly about that. We use the limited explanation, and then I will go beyond that because the land, lows, and tenor system is all about the South Sudan. It is not about Juba. Yes, it is not about Juba. But to start with Juba, if you read article 50 of the of the constitution, Sabar, it tells you clearly that the city of Juba shall be the national capital of South Sudan. And then the seat of the national government will be based in Juba. And then its territory and administration shall be defined and regulated by law. This is very, very important for for everybody to know that in the constitution, currently it is Juba, that is the capital city. Secondly, it has to be known by everybody that the law says that the territory of Juba, which is the capital city, has to be defined. So in other words, it has to have the the kilometers or whatever measurement that is it from here to take up from here to namely what what is the distance for you to to eliminate that this is where Juba ends and this is where it starts. That is one point. Secondly, when it comes now to to the management or their location of land, you know the issue of land grabbing should not actually be a point of discussion here because I have actually said it clearly in many locations, in many forums that this one has already been addressed by the law. And if if I refer you to article, I mean to section 84 of the quantity of the land act, it states clearly that anybody that gets a piece of land, you sit there illegally without being given by the government or by the the traditional authority, then you are sitting as an illegal occupant. And therefore, if you did that before this law was passed, then the court will evict you. And if you if you did this after the law has been passed, then you will even be given a notice of seven days only. And then you you you are removed out by by by the authority. So here, I don't see why people want to say that law does not protect the the issue of land grabbing. The law says clearly, maybe we just say that the government has not been implementing the laws that it has passed. Yeah. Yeah. There are practical questions with regard to two things that you said. Yes. One is the management and the definition of the land. Yes. So and this is what I want to you to remind you of what a professor said earlier that when city was was was bill was relocated to Dubai to Cuba. It was relocated with the consultation of the locals. So if the law says that the the seat of the city will be Cuba and then the it will be defined, the area will be defined by the law. Now, should how will not do it in exclusion of people or in other words, let me say how we will law define the territory of the city with with consultation or without consultation of the people. Okay. Thank you. I'm actually very happy that the owner of all here is a member of the parliament. Yeah. And and actually the the the constitution is the supreme law of the land that all laws must conform with the constitution. Any law that contradicts the constitution will be null and void and it will it has to be amended to conform with the constitution. Now, honorable, I said that, but it was the same assembly that passed this constitution. Now, what can be done with the with the constitution? If it has not been amended, the constitution has stated clearly that the capital is Juba. And then if you go to the land law, but that does not mean that if the capital is Juba, then all people of South Sudan, they should come in and you just find Emmity space and you get in. No, that is not what it means. If it is the city, like another city, go to Yambio, go to Roomba, go to Benti, those are the cities of the of the states of South Sudan. The management of the city is to be regulated by law. What it means is that it is the authority now that will do the zooning by declaring this area is gazette that this place is available for the people. If there are local people that are staying there, then the government should go there, see the local people and say that we are expanding the town here. So, what is your arrangement here? If you are here for farming or you are here for cattle keeping, then we are going to locate you other places for farming and other places for cattle keeping. But if you are here for a resident for residential purpose, no problem. You are going to be located and you register it a private land. This is where the issue of private land comes in. Now you come and put in the roads that the public institution like the hospital, the playing grounds, the police stations and then the rest of the places and then the market places. You are located to the people. The people will have no problem because if you come and tell me here that we want to organize this place that you are in to put the roads here and put the security here, there is no problem. But it should be done in consultation with the community. Now the challenge here in Salsudan is what I want to mention very clearly is that practically the government is not even benefiting from the land. Practically, the government is not even the one grabbing the land or even giving it to the people. Practically they are cheap that come from all the states of Salsudan and the strative areas. They form themselves and then whichever town they are in, they will go and see outside the town, look the empty places and then they just come in, they develop their letterheads and they stem and then they begin to allocate and there is what the common man called the land grabbing. Yes and then that one here now, people are confronted with the situation that you cannot escape. For example, I remember when the horrible sitting next to me here, the chairman, actually he was my professor who taught me land law. He was the one saying clearly that land is the most catholic source because there is no more of it is being made. So you see it big and there is no more of it is being made. So here if the government does not allocate the land, take example in Dubai here and then let me follow you. I think we will have to go for a break. [Music] The round table. Welcome back from the break and we are understanding the land tennis system in South Sudan. That is the topic of our discussion and in the studio we have Honorable Robert Ladoch, a person of South Sudan land commission and we have Honorable George Borang, who is a national member of Palme representing Dubai in Nevada and we have Honorable Yarno, a member of South Sudan national chamber of commerce and we have Malana Gabriel Medina-Pach, who is a lecturer at the University of Dubai School of Law. Welcome to all of us for this discussion. Before we went for a break, Medim was raising issues that needed response from some members of the panel and I want to give Medim just 30 seconds in order to recap before I go to Yarno and back to the banning response that is awaiting from Honorable Borang. Thank you so much. What I was trying to say was that if it is a duty of government to allocate land to the people of South Sudan, if the government fails to do that by not giving the land and with the growing population is in town, you will find that there will be a bucket which needs to be filled and by that reasons, the shift from different locations, they use the wrong provisions in the land act. That is section 15. We say that the traditional authority within a specific community may allocate customary land rights for us, then agriculture, forestry and grazing purpose. So you just, I want you to repeat this thing. You say a wrong provision in the constitution or what did you say? No, it is the provision that has been used. They are taking the powers which are not given by the land act. What the land act says is that if you are a chief or a sultan in your area, then you may have a right to allocate land to your people in that locality, but it does not mean that they move to town, go and form themselves as chiefs and then they will be now to allocate the land. The land which is in urban land is not a customary land in the definition of the classification of land. So if the government has not given the land, for example, the last five years, have you ever had that in this city, they have announced that any interested sultan is should come and register so that you will be called and then say, here is where you build. If you leave that, if you give that vacuum, then the traditional authority now will just take that opportunity, which is not correct in the law. And this is how the issue of land grabbing and middle location by the chief, this is how it comes in major town. Well, you are, but then Medink, if there is that provision in the constitution that gives the traditional chief in the land act, to allocate land for farming and residence, then there is something that need to be clarified. And I will give the law to honour Robert. All right, thank you. Come on, the land act is very clear. Who owns the land? And it is very clear in the specification of the land, how many of them are in the land of public, community and private. Now come to the private. If we come in sense, all these people who are here, who are trying to take this piece here and discharge there, these are all private for private purposes. Why does who want to build houses, homes to live in, those who want to build homes to live on? For example, those who are having so many, many properties, so many, many lands, you will need only one house. But what about the others? So many, 100, 200 lands, what they do, they will start living on these lands, either they sell it to other people. But the thing is, how did they acquire this land? Either they acquire it through this traditional system of the traditional custom, I mean traditional shifts, how a shifts are going to have some, are going to land. So we are going to go and feed the real traditional shifts with our area. We are going to bring people from the same area, we are going to be in the same area, we attach themselves with these, I don't want to call them who, I don't want to miss call them, like in the group of people, okay, and cartels, well, a group of people who are doing it for the purpose of money, okay, because land is a commodity. Now we have to understand it. But then if the allocation of land and a lot of land is left to the government, then the government will think instead of expanding horizontally, we go vertical, okay, and then the land can be divided in a professional manner. Now if we may then, why it's made down, for example, in Juba, okay, those may be in the 1960s, El Khawajat Sabo, those may be divided into plots, and there's no places left to children to play in. We are just talking about the example of Juba, because the day of land is not only about Juba, yes, so those may have been taken away, but the people who are having the power, and using the law, the law will create it, it's not in the law, the land act of 2009, maybe the land act of Juman, within 1925, because Sudan, the land act of 2009, a policy. So the land is not only about the land, it's about 1925, Umasa, okay, in a sense, Masa, that came at Jama Del and the pressure, those people who are in the offices, even here, a honorable Robert, who he will attest to that, is having a lot of pressure from other people, because he's the person who is in charge of the land, I bet, and I'm sure he did not say it, but thousands and thousands of people come to him for land, and he doesn't distribute the land, it's not his mandate, he already explained what is his mandate, so what I'm seeing here, there is a crisis about the land in, for example, in Juba, instead of expanding and we are grabbing and taking the villages of the people of the central Ligotaro of the villages around Juba, taking them by force at the gut, gunpoint, okay, so they, we go vertical, so if other towns in the world, now it's going to seem until a team, sit a door, come sit a door, why don't the government think now to seize this time and this opportunity to do reforms very quickly, the constitution is coming, maybe attention to the land issues has to be put into the constitution, I say, nobody will feel threatened, by the way, so people don't feel threatened, it is coming because of the land, thank you, honorable Robert, before I come to, you have been quiet for some time, meeting some issues, issue of a gap being created because the government is not taking responsibility of consulting with the local community, get the land from them, get it and then distribute it to the people of South Sudan, this is a gap that exists, and that's why Salatin from all other 10 states, three administrative areas come and one student serves here, and in collision with the locals, then distribute the land because there is that gap, there is one, then Mading has raised, the second one is the provision in the land act 2009, that says that chief, I'm not just paraphrasing as I was listening to Mading, that gives the traditional leaders responsibility to this real land, traditional land for settlement and farming and so forth and so forth, and that's why, if that is there, that provision is there, in fact many people do not know, including myself, if that provision there, then that justify the giving out of land by the locals to this chief from other areas, and in 10 it is distributed to the people, so it is done within the law, what is your take on this and your otherwise and as a advisor? Yeah, thank you very much, in the first place where we talk of customary land, that is the community land, the land acquisition process, we are going to have land acquisition law, how do you acquire land, Salatin becomes a law, first you have to negotiate with the community which you want to talk the land from, they call it the prayer consultation with the community, you have to know what nature or livelihood the community does, are they pastoral, are they agreeing, so that when you come they tell you leave a place for our pastures, or leave a place for our farms, you have to attend that, if you know we travel and we read about so many countries, because we say Cuba is not also that the Maroon island, Habarone, the capital of Botswana, on this side of the road that is community land, on this side of the road is public land is the capital, community land will not have access to electricity, running water unless they do it alone there, because you know if you give electricity water if something happens, sure as the law will actually take its cause because they would not have the right on that property in terms of law, so the land acquisition process you acquire the land, negotiate with the community if it is taken, then you divide the land, because now the population is expanding, as many as some of you alluded to, we are not negotiating for more land from the community, and the population is increasing, in the absence of the government or the consent authority not negotiating for more land, this issue of land grabbing camps in, because the population increases, they move to the land that belongs to the community, and they take it, and then definitely the issue of money comes in, they sell and give, so that gap, we are not acquiring land in accordance with the procedure, they are procedures of acquiring land in the land act, and we are going to have the land acquisition act, going to be a law, so that a person who does not follow the procedures will continue the law and it becomes punishable, according to the law, chiefs, the customary land, the chiefs have a say, but they are not the final authority, the only communities in South Sudan where the traditional leaders at the final authority is the Cholo Kingdom and Azande, the Cholo Kingdom all the land is under the wrath as a custodian, and the Azande Kingdom, but for instance of us, why chiefs are even done by election, I say the one place around you, or the person who was binding charcoal later on became a chief, and a lot of chiefs, instead of centred in these pits, they are distributing land, it's just because of that gap, and we are going, in the community, if you are going to legislate it, I tell you, and I bet, so many chiefs are going to give over their jobs of becoming, because it is not going to be the correct because it's going to be tightened, and the rationale of becoming a chief, that along the stability of land would be proper check, coming to the chief, giving customary land for a purpose of farming or residence, this is possible, a brand was born and grew up in Juba, Boonuiki, Gurei, the people who are living in Juba as a public land so our senior officials were given farms by the chiefs, by the chiefs of the area, to farm, but later on when the town expanded, then that's why Boonuiki and people who had farms, they were either, the land was given a certain portion to that person and extended, this is possible, and the IDPs who come, you cannot bring IDPs and settle them in Juba or Qatar or the IDPs have to be settled and if that permission from the chiefs, traditional authority, genuine chiefs, not those fictitious ones, so that they give land, because now you see going to a where there were a unique refugees now, the people of Karthamar center, that is outside the jurisdiction of Juba city. Who gave them its traditional authority and that is allowed by law. But then if that is the case, Haunar Robert, then the argument by some citizen that, the land that is called to be, to be called in quote, land being grabbed is actually a land that the local community that have organized themselves, let's say the Salatin that Mading talked about before, they go and consult with the local chief and ask them, can you give us land for a settlement? Then the chief give them the land and they go, the organized community now go and distribute because there is that gap, then that is not land grabbing then, it is just fine. Yeah, you see, for example, what is happening, let's say, what is happening in northern Juba, the side of Yabbalah-doh, the side of Ayirah frontom, I don't know, it used to be called, but that's it. If the local community would not have land, I mean, the Promada is part of South Sudan, the people of South Sudan, go and consult the Salatin there, and the Salatin give them the land, they go and settle then, then it is, is there one land grabbing or it is rightfully as it is in the constitution? It is land grabbing, you know, a thief with all the steel where he knows the terrain and the map of the house was. So it's an entry point, I'm a chief, you are a friend, I come and give you a small place to stay, then next you bring your cousin and then you bring a person who is a dealer or land, then he occupies the place and makes it for selling, this is what happened, because the genesis is because referendum, how it expanded, Juba delta, we know all the genesis and the history of that, it just turns very differently and then it breaks up, definitely this land grabbing, there is a local who is also part of it. So, in other words, of course the issue of men are concerned, if a group of people come to Sultan and tell them, there is Sultan, we have this money, can you give us the land and we in turn give this money to help yourself, that could be perceived by the buying. So if this process take place, is it illegal or legal? Can I come in there please? There need to be some clarification here. Sure. Issues of land management, you see we have, as per the constitution, we have about five classifications, public land, community land, private land, all land owned by the state or another land, now the issue of the land management in the community, let me tell you about my community. This thing you were talking about, the chief giving land, the chief has no authority in buying traditional customary law. We have the chief, we have the chief of the rain, we have the chief of the land. The chief of the land has no authority to give land to anybody at all because the land is owned by specific families and clans. If you come to me, you want to go to my village and settle, you come to the chief, he takes where, where is your friend, you come to my clan, you come from there and then to the greed, where you factor in. The chief cannot say, I give you this land, because the land is even determined, this is the land for cultivation, this is the land for a pasture of your animals, this is the land for hunting and so on. So these say new chiefs that are given land to the people among the body is not true. What has happened here, we have government chiefs who have been affected because chiefs are done by elections, this day, by the end, I form chiefs and so on, they claim that they are chief, they have no authority. I don't understand this customary law that gives the chief the right to give land, I have not, I will be part of the constitution, I am not saying it, there are no such provisions in the land act. This is the problem, the land act was written later on without the constitution, whoever put it there is a problem, at least in my, I don't know what it has done customary land law, how the specific are the communities use their land, because the land tiana in the community is known. Those who have, you are talking about the sandals and they, they, they, these are caves, belong to, land belong to the king, but in other communities, where we don't have kingdom, we have specific chibdams, they land also regulated. They know other person that land can say, I am going to give the land there. No chief says that authority in by the land. So these, by the chief, they are called it with this by the chief, so they have land, they, these are new chiefs that I don't know, because they, the chief know is mojalaari, who also controls the land if their disease is a blessing, the land if there's war, that's right. So those new things are different, things have changed. Land is wealth. Land is property now. The reason why I want to formalize legal property rights and ownership is exactly to commodify and make it as a market tonight. People are going for this land, not because they really want to live there. They want to use it and sell it. There are people now out there, I suspect even in my area with, with Dutch cars and military men and tables selling land, because land is money. Regardless what will happen later on, then we get my money and run. So this issue of, of land and how we manage land, it was a real proper study. customary law, we need to know how do people use the land and we also want to know what is the purpose of this land, the direct strength of the law. As Robert has said, there have been all the countries in Africa and the pressure to make sure that there is a proper use, through commissions and so on for land use, Tanzania and so on, and they put land laws and land ideas. Others have refused to like in Tanzania, they were bullied in the middle of housing, because the day it has been used. So they put systems of managing this land, because when we see the government, the government is made of people and people of the interest. They can use that law for their own interest. So until there is confidence in the government and we put our institutions in place, we put our governing institutions in place. So that when we put people to manage the land, there is trust in the government. If we don't do this, we are opening up a particular box where we bring conflict. And Monad is saying the law now says anybody can settle anywhere because the law says so. When we say that, then we really have a problem with how do you manage movement of people, interaction of people, because conflict can arise, traditions, different cultures come together and you have conflict. And this is why each source of boundaries and states and so on, these are tied with the land and the use of the resources. So there is a challenge here. When you register a land, you give them a title, you give them rights and perpetuity, depending whether it's a free land home, which you can hold, forever or the delimitation in Tanzania. This also is a property that you can use. And you come to my village now and you register and take the title and leave there forever. Everybody will resist, of course. So if you come in big numbers, you take over the community, you assimilate the community. Let us say a group of money goes to Carolina and they speak, and they coopodular a few. My point, you end up speaking of money over time. You are assimilating, contrary to the provisions of the law that the culture and tradition of the law is maintained. So by movement, the constitution allows individual movement, no group allocation. Why do you have people who begin mass like now with the achieves and villages and so on to another village, they have overwhelmed that village, it doesn't exist. Professor, what do you want to do? Professor, there is this situation. I think there is no massive movement. No, I feel that is what I'm trying to say. I should read it to you that I'll say it. Yeah. What I'm trying to say, the individual that calls themselves a latin from other areas. These are individuals that come from from from from from from. Then they come and come and come. They choose by the way. The chiefs come with their cleanse. They come with their house. You got to be able to achieve without cleanse. You go here, there here. They sit and play, and by the way, you were against, sorry, I'm not in a foreign land because the names have changed. There is a cobra, buba, debert, la moon, no, moon, no, moon, no, moon, no, moon, no, moon, no, moon. There is a magnetin. Where did this come from? When you do this, this is extreme aggression. This is aggression. This is a look like an invasion. Where do you change the name of a place, a foreign funnel? You are effacing the existence of the community there. This is no longer building. So name change is an aggressive thing. Yes, thank you. Now comes in the naming, yeah? There is a graphical naming law. For example, if you do that. This is a cruel South Sudan. For example, mangateen. Mangateen was only two. Mangateen was three. That way in that place. Those people went to the place. If they want to describe, because here, they don't have the name, because they are not from the area. You got the alfi mangateen, Mahalpukma mangateen. And now mangateen became the space. This is just one of the areas among the ten higher a friend them. They will dink. They will talk to you. What about the official names in the document? So those names came before something. There is a story behind each name, but the real name of the place. But the name. You see, these are exactly the point I am trying to make. When we are doing this, we must be very sensitive about the locality. The so-called mangateen is Kamiru. They are indigenous villages. These are the things you go to a place, a number and begin naming it. What are you saying? There is another cognition. Of the indigenous people, you are changing the further than any of the people. Even the culture will change. Since these no longer movement of people are integrating society in the past. By the way, those people who are coming in big numbers, let me come in. Those people who are coming in big numbers. For example, for those who are affected by the floods and the up and high region in general, like in Jungule, not only in Bohr, but deep deep inside in Twitch East and other areas. Like in Bantu. Those who came in in a big number, they were given places and they certainly. Now, the people who are saying that they are coming in big numbers to change. All over the south, yes, it can happen. All over the democratic area. If you take, for example, mangateen, they are not for one tribe. They are for one tribe. I am giving you a theory. People can move anyway. This is a theoretical assumption. Let me clarify what I am trying to say. When you say there is a free movement, you see, good or low, it can over-generate. It can be applied by people or other intentions. You can move anywhere. I can move all my body population and move where to locally. Why will the low or not? Can I come in? The issue now is when you do this, you are causing other problems. This is my worry. Exactly. As you said it, I think in one minute, Professor Honorable, maybe you have not used my court properly. I did not just say that the law says that people could just move anywhere and settle there. No. That is not what I said. I was saying what the law says is that all south Sudanese, you will not be discriminated from getting a piece of land. That is actually a prize by land. This is what it means. For example, if all of us here are sitting here, we move here to Malakar for another reason. Maybe he is walking there or I am also walking there. Then I want to have a piece of land. I do not want to run. The law allows me to report myself to the land authority, submit my application, and then I am located a land legally registered in my name. People will not say, but you are coming from Juba or you are coming from Balakar or you are coming from this area. We cannot give you a title. No. That will be a discrimination and that one is not anywhere in the whole world. Absolutely. So this is what I was meaning. Secondly, when we talk of community land ownership, which the law says that it has to be defined and it has to be protected. You know you cannot protect what you do not know. That is why the law says that a community land has to be defined and it has to be protected. So it does not mean that. And if you go and get a definition of what are the elements of being a community owning that land, the law says that for you to say this is a customary owned community land, you must show that you hold this land for a time in memorial. You have been managing it from the grandfathers up to now and that you have been protecting it from that time up to now. And this is what the law says that. The traditional authorities that hold the customary land before they are coming into force by this act continue to hold the land here. It does not mean that a community that is living here in Juba Ladu will just move to Rumbek and they say that we need a community land. No, you must show that you have been holding this place, you have been there for long. That one is a customary holding and then the the the registered one is when you go to an area that is already declared to be a demarcated land and then you you just apply if you want a community property. For example, a community office or a community is full, you will apply to the authority to be given to you. But a community land should be the one that customary owned should be the one that you have been there for for a time in memorial. So this is what I was saying. Thank you. Let it give our callers an online opportunity to enter with us with the question. Hello, Adam, Raya. Hello. Hello. Good morning. Morning, your question and your name in one minute please. David McGone from Wow. David McGone, Rabeck. Welcome to the studio and I would like to ask the question concerning this land. My number one question is, so South Sudan have really agreed to choose Central Lupatora, especially Jupa, to be the national, the capital city of the country. And also Sudanese are interesting to be in Jupa. What will be the process that somebody who is a South Sudanese to be given the land in Jupa? Because there is a national minister of housing, there is a minister of physical infrastructure in the state. There are tips in the area and so forth. What is the legal process of which a South Sudanese will have right to get a land? This is number one. Number two, those who are being fed by now in Jupa, are they generals? What about the rest of the other South Sudanese? Do they not have right to be given a land? Good. Good question. So much generals and those with money are the one now owning lands in Jupa. How about other South Sudanese? Should they leave as the squatters in their own land, in their own country? Hello, Rabeck. Hello? Morning, how are you doing? Yeah, your morning, your name and your question. Yeah, this is behind them calling it wow. Behind you, go ahead. My question is, I think the issue of land in Jupa city itself is invigorated. Is it not invigorated by Jupa community, especially in Bahrain? Because what I'm seeing is people are complaining nowadays about land grabbing only Jupa people. What about the national government? It is because of the issue of land. Why the national government is not talking about it? Why it is too my concern about Jupa because that one question. The second question is, what is what is the issue of land in Jupa? If Jupa city is relocated from Jupa to another place, will it continue the same or it will not? That is the second question. The third question is Jupa I think is the place for Jupa because it's the city of the country. I had them talking about people coming in a big number and changing the name of the area. What do they mean about that? Because I think the new place, people can change the name based on the location and the way the settlement. A new settlement can give a new view. So why do they think that people are changing the name? Thank you. Thank you so much, Dan. Dan from WOW. Hello, ready, Mariah? Very good. I'm fine. Your name is your question. This is Dan Talang from the front of here. Dan Talang, go ahead. Actually, the issue of land, I want to ask you, you know, most of us, especially me, I want to own a land here in Jupa. That is the problem. What is the problem? Why are the people particularly about the community? They used to have had this land long term. I can tell this land has not come to them. It's long term. It's long term. So I better have my old land here. It's an easy location to be done so that the government should be put somewhere either in a will or in WOW or in WOW. And then later on when they come and visit us, we will take this land long term. Thank you very much. That is your opinion, Dan Talang. Then we have our text messages here. We have Johnson in EA. He said, "We know in the constitutional land act they give their army powers to the market and sell land like it is happening now in Juba." I think Malan Madiyu will have to handle that. Then we have the Chol Dan Chol in Corflus. My greeting goes to the guest here. My question is, "Where do you people expect citizens to leave while Juba is the capital city of South Sudan?" That question will be answered by Honorable Brahm. Did the chief give a token for this land? If no, then it is legal. I think it's just a comment. Johnson writing from San Joseph Parich, Kwajok, it is a very significant program about the land. Who will make the awareness to local chief? Those who give access to listen to media and call radio, I see, Dan. "Lentena is a relationship governed by law. The city cannot be planned without the authorities of the local land owners. Franco-Cibet Bob in Juba, there is a city, he is command. Then Magdiu in Bentiv, my question to the chairperson of land commission, Honorable Robert. There is community land, public land and private land. Why? When it comes to land survey, there are some problems. Then who can regulate the land a year? In these three land titles, I think the question goes to Robert directly. Then we have Samuel Abarich Makur from Grumbech. My question goes to the guests in the studio. Why the government institution that is responsible for land regulate are not doing it, okay? Then Oster Simon Akot Akot from Pariaki, northern Barakazal, my question to the guests in the studio is that when government want to do public facility like hospital, school, police station, ETC, community first consulted and if some individual members of the community reject this development, who claim to be the land owners, what does the government do? So if the government wants to do a project in a certain area and some individuals refuse because they are members of that community, then what can government do in that case? We have Oster Simon from Torit. How long does it take one to own land and how much should the land cause? And I want to give each one of you strictly, each one of you one minute and half and I want to begin with Honorable Robert. Well, thank you very much. The question from the guy from Banquil, who regrets or gives land in any of this classification? It is the authority. In our case, it is actually the state Minister of infrastructure because according to our schedule, all the powers of the land, allocation and all, there actually shall be under the state. If the government wants to open a hospital road and the committee refuses, that is what is called the power of imminent domain. The government has got the right to deal if the project is for security, is for development, is for the interests of the people. The committee has no right to do. Even the government can expropriate land from an individual, from a group, but for public interest, not for individual interest. You take an empty space with children playing football and then you distribute yourself. This is actually against the law. I would actually love to touch the issue of everybody's entitled to have a piece of plot in the capital. You see, I always tell people, this was actually a place for police, and now even the barracks. The Army cannot, for example, you are transferred to Juba for three years you have a plot, you are transferred to Rijjava plot. When you retire, you have a plot everywhere. What is important is you have a plot where you are going to retire. I don't know much about it. I will get it there, but I hope that if I apply, I would not be discriminated against. But if everybody has a plot in Juba, because it's the capital, and by the way, all the 13 million of us will have plots in Juba, and that will actually defeat the purpose. You will not say whether you are a general, but if you are applying for a plot, they must know what are you doing. You cannot say, you know, and I'm about to be led with Duknaz, whether they are led plot from Hankir. The problem that is happening is not in Juba. I know about Malakar. There are even worse problems here than in those places. But because of the land, the value of land in Juba, that's why people come here. And by the way, I want to tell people that not everybody is interested to come and stay in Juba, which is dusty, very dirty. People come here because of employment, security, and job opportunities. Like now I come from Lyon. No, not tell my people that Juba has all moved to Juba, to do what? You need to cultivate the security. Finally, the issue of changing names. You cannot change names of the place. I started in Rombakar and I grew up there. There is Maria by Amisore. Malawal could be destroyed, so there is what? You cannot change it. You cannot change the place. But the government will see whether they speak of Duknaz. And by Tampi, in Duknaz it is not called Tampi. It is called evenabari. It is not changed. Those are not formal. I am not formal. That's why we talk of geographical naming law act. We are going to have it. Like the Basmati, Rogal Mahi. Why don't we talk about the Basmati? Okay, Honorable Brung in one minute and half. The other question is already being answered by Honorable Robert. The issue of the capital land location, location in the capital and so on. You see, as a South Sudanese, you have a right to live anywhere you want, including the capital. But the capital, by definition, is a place where the government is. That is only why you have a capital. Those who work with the government can come there. You can come to the capital and leave it with some other work to do. But the capital is a very limited place. You have to bring everybody and give them problems in the capital. That is not possible. It is like a town in Malawal and so on. So the issue of a right to have less of a capital. The capital is not right. There is also the issue of something called the real estate, which is a business. When you have a capital set to power the growth and development is the real estate. My people build and people hire and so on. And this is also important. The one direct agreement was what, why do citizens live in Juba? If Juba is the capital in Nanogippin land. Again, this is the first answer. It is a capital. But it does not mean you must live in a capital. Not all Americans live in Washington, D.C. Not all the German live in born. Not all British live in the land. We must understand this. The fact that Juba is your capital, yes, it is a capital you are left. But it does not mean you must also have a flood in Juba. So I think that was important. Thank you very much. One minute and love. Yes. Somebody talked about the location of the capital. Papa and the national government in the constitution of South Sudan, 50.5. It is without prejudice. The government, the national government can relocate the capital city of the South Sudan to any place it wants. But for now it is in Juba. But we want to see why do the people want to relocate the capital city of South Sudan? Why? What is the reason? This one is the government to determine. They say, yes, we want to relocate because this place is small. We want to relocate because of this and this. But I don't think the people of the South Sudan, I don't know, it is not given in the law for them to say relocate because we are not given the land because the land of the government is public land. Yes, the capital is public land and the public land, it is not yet defined as it is required to be defined and demarcated. It is not yet done. That's why the expansion is going so far until maybe we wish to wherever I don't know. But that is given by the law. The others, he said, the army and the business people. The business people, there is nobody who is given favor, favorism. There is no favorism here. The army who got the land, maybe they got it as private land, including the business people. He was lucky, but there was no favorism. Because I'm living in Cuba, I don't see that. Maybe the people of Cuba would say that. But those people, what those lands? You're born in Cuba, so you should know. Yes, I'm born in Cuba, but I was not given the land. There was no allotment in my land. I'm therefore the husband. I'm in Malana, in one minute, and I'll be okay. Thank you. I will start with the question from my colleague from EA, who says that which law gives actually the military personnel distributed land. Completely, the army does not have authority to allocate the land. In actual sense, I've even seen here in Cuba, this side of Bilpa. If you go there, there is the national army letterhead, where the land is really allocated, and I actually challenge it one time in court, that this one does not have ground. And those one, they are not actually recognized, even by the court, of sorts of that. So those things are really good. Secondly, somebody was also saying that people want to live in Cuba, and they don't get land. This one here, it goes now to the issue of the policy. You know, you don't deny people that, why do you come? You get it from your place. No, the law does not allow that. People are coming, you allocate the land, put the condition in the policy, that this area has to be built, I mean, this in this format. And then when you are applying, you will be given a certain period of time to build that kind of the type of building we just needed there. So if you are just getting it for the sake of just occupying the place, you don't do anything in it, maybe you won't later want to bring somebody to sell it. I've seen in many countries in Africa, where they put a restriction on sale, that a certain period of time after you have put something, this is actually to avoid people coming, you get the land here, sell it tomorrow to any foreign investor, you go and get another land there. And I think this is what is in the mind of the people, since they know that land in Juba is expensive. But the reality, you will not be denied. It will be given to you and it will be taken away from you if you have not done anything in it. And the last point was somebody was also saying that, what are the forces of acquiring land in Juba? This is a very good question. Here, not in Juba, but in all land authorities in Salsa Dada. You just submit your application with your ID, proving that you are a source dentist. And then the government or that land authority will designate a certain area for people who have applied and then given to them. But when the government fails now, this is where the issue of chips come in, for people who want to settle. Thank you. Thank you. I have just something on that. But yeah, that thing, the question here, a very important question, we must not leave without getting there. And this goes to you, Bernard Robert. This is from somebody in the Germany district. He said, "I am Luca Lam, my chair from Uganda, the Germany district. A good morning, I can guess, my question to the land commission. If the land belongs to the people and peoples of Bentiw, I have a good land of oil for many resources. While there is no good hospital, no universities, no good water, women born, give birth to children who are deformed and so forth, I think the question is not completed. It is a long one and it may be truncated somewhere else. But the whole idea is that the land, people in Bentiw, they have land with oil and so forth and so forth. This land is not being devolved and there are cases of health cases there. The land is not devolved. Then while these are the land is devolved in Cuba. So this goes to you before we wind it up. Yeah, it's a very much important question. In the first place, Luca, the resources. For example, for oil in Bentiw, there is gold also and then maybe it will reach all these places. When a commodity or maybe a mineral is being exploited somewhere, there is a percentage that goes to that area, the producing state and then there is equitable distribution. If you get 3% and every state is getting 10%, you also have 10% given to you. But we are not following what is called the social corporate responsibility of the company that is exploiting that place. The social corporate responsibility is to give service to the people. And actually, before giving service, you have to make an impact assessment where what is the damage that is being caused, like children being born and all this. It should have been done. And the final thing that I want to say is the movement of the capital. If you move a capital from one place without addressing the reason, then you have not done anything. They move from the same problem. Yeah, and then one time, madam, and then saying, if this is the way you are moving from you by the way, Ramshan, people are worried rich and we don't want it in Ramshan. That you are bringing problems, you have to project on that. So, you are saying, if that is the reason that you want to move the capital from you by God plus ma and not being given to us, you will move this capital on your head forever. Thank you so much. I know there is no enough time always to discuss issues of learning Saturday. I would want to say thank you very much, Professor Honorable Burang, Honorable Robert and Molana Medin plus Honorable Year. It has been a very interesting discussion. And I think we shall have to carry it forward to our next discussion. Thank you very much for visiting Friday morning. Thank you very much to all our listeners. Sorry, time has never been good enough, but this is it. Thank you so much. Thank you. [Music]