[MUSIC] Fan morning shows, 4759, the fan, Ben and his friend, Gunning. Saturday was embarrassing for the Toronto Maple Leafs, especially through 40 minutes. I mean, the whole thing was embarrassing. So yeah, they had to push back in the third period. Only after the game had essentially been decided. I suppose like sliding doors if William Knee Lander doesn't take that penalty and Leafs had just scored, maybe they scored again, maybe they win the hockey game without awesome math, it's probably not. >> Well, actually, that's like when they have the best chance to win. So it's not quite Morgan Riley record, but their record without math use is ridiculous. >> It's true. >> Yeah, we never got to see that play out. Cuz they took the penalty. >> Bruins somehow didn't score on that power play, it's like was a miracle of God, if that did not. >> What's been, God, I feel bad he passes. >> No. >> What's been the worst part of this series so far through four games for you? >> Most embarrassing part. >> It's honestly, I don't feel, and maybe I'm wrong to feel this way, up until the start of Saturday night. I don't feel like it was an embarrassing series. I feel like it was a Leafs team that had struggled and was not something they should have been proud of necessarily, but I don't think it was an embarrassment, they had failed to show up. I did feel that on Saturday night, but yeah, I don't know that it has been, I mean, God, I had to go back and look at the score that it was only 3-1 that was going over my notes this morning, cuz it feels like they lost 7-1 on Saturday night. I think that's been maybe, in a weird way, that's been the most frustrating part, is that there hasn't been one thing to point at for me. >> For me, there has. The power play has been embarrassing from puck drop, and I get it, it was trending in this direction. >> Yeah, okay, so I would agree with you that that's the case, but that's like me being mad that I'm lazy. It's like, yeah, I'm lazy. Every day I was lazy all year long, I'm lazy still. The power play's been bad since February, and I didn't expect it to just get better when things get harder against the best goalie. >> No, I didn't expect it to score a bunch necessarily, it wouldn't have been nice, it wouldn't have said it was out of the realm of possibility. But they're creating nothing, like they, as bad as this power play was outside of February where there were 50%. They were creating a case, they've created nothing, nothing, it's been abysmal. Honestly, that's because you can talk about, hey, this team's a little more physical. They're at their best when they're creating offense. And if they had lost the series because they just, they allowed too much, which it despite the rest of the hockey world thinking that has been this Leafs team's problem in years past, it hasn't, they just haven't been able to score. But if this was, and it was throughout the course of the regular season, second high scoring team in the NHL, but just allowed to weigh too much, right? This is not your older brothers, Leafs defensive team. And yeah, the blue line, you have to look at the names in the back of the sweaters to understand the reason why, and the inconsistent goal-tending was part of that too. But I certainly expected there to be some looks on the power play. Like what is the best chance that they've had on the power play? They had like the first 30 seconds of their first power play, I want to say in game two. I know what you're talking about. And then it was like a short-handed breakaway. Right? Right? That's it. Like literally not even a moment where I understand, yeah, numbers-wise they have not been good on the power play, but to look the way that it has looked, and now over 20 minutes of action through four games of the series, that is embarrassing. That is like the number one reason all these star players making their many millions of dollars at the conclusion of this series should all look at each other and say that was embarrassing. We embarrassed ourselves with the performance on the power play in this series. Yeah, I guess I should be as angry as you are about it. I just get so much more frustrated with things at five on five. I feel like the power play should be- The five on five hasn't like just they've been outscored, but only they finally were outscored at five on five with the performance on Saturday. And I guess, yeah, it's outside of the numbers necessarily, but yeah. Okay. So what is it at five on five that is embarrassing? You know what it is? The more I think about it, and I guess it's part and parcel of the power play, it just depends on how you kind of want to look at it, is that the most frustrating thing about this is that, and this isn't a this year thing, is that once again, there has been a leaf team that comes into the playoffs with slightly different tact. Last year, it was, hey, got caught in my winter. You got the perfect partner for Riley. This year, it was you got your two grease balls playing alongside Matthews and you finally got some scoring depth. You know, years ago, it was, oh, you finally have Tavares coming into the full. There has always been a thing that is going to be what unlocks this leaf score. And not to say there won't be another wrinkle and they won't try something else next year. But the idea that once again, they've tried to throw a little something else, a different spice on it and it hasn't been enough to spurn the star players along. Maybe that should is just the exact same thing as why aren't they scoring on the power play. But now that I think about it, I think that's the most frustrating thing. It is yet another year with a different set of eyes on it that took a completely different tact and hey, they can change this all tomorrow night and start winning and the series is not over. But if it continues down this road, that it's once again another recipe to try to get the best out of the protein on this least roster and they just haven't been able to do so. Yeah, it's been ugly. It's not been great. And I don't think anybody's having the conversation about the fans, not loud enough and not treating this, this team fairly loud. They were boot off the ice, the conclusion of the second period and at the conclusion of 60 minutes, perhaps the final time they get to see this team on home ice this year. Time now for our insider brought to you by Don Valley, North Lexus, where you can expect excellence online and in the showroom, visit Don Valley North Lexus dot com today's insider, Mike Fuda, two times Stanley Cup champion NHL executive. How's it going, Mike? I'm I've got like a sports here and he and my brain from absolute whoever decided to put the Evanston game on at 11 o'clock at night. Roughly crusher. As much as I love it, it's like, you know, you look at it, you go, yeah, I'm not going to stay up for that. And then you're in the third period going, what am I doing? Anyway, Seko, that's what you're doing. Yeah. Yeah. The game. Did you, did you, when you were a king's executive, did you ever sympathize with us East coasters or you're like, Oh, come on, get it together. Is this finally? Yeah, no, the chicken's coming home to roost for you. It was great because when you go on to bed, here's like, there's nothing left to watch. Yeah. Right? Yes. That when you're when I was living in Los Angeles, there was no death, it was, yeah, you couldn't force yourself because everything you'd already watched, it was crazy. I went up the morning and NFL game starting at like 10 o'clock in the morning. My dream. Anyway, I digress. Yeah. And I honestly watching it, I was going to say, talking about watching the NFL at like nine 30 or 10 in the morning, seems more, more pleasurable than talking about the lead trade. I got to be honest. Saturday was ugly. That was rough, Mike. Yeah. I mean, how ugly was it? Cause like I'm, I'm trying to like sober second thought it cause like in the moment, it was like, Oh, I mean, just like he would be actually honorable for the Leafs to just forfeit the rest of the series. Like everybody just say, Hey, we're done. We, we, we, because like that's, we, I don't know if I can watch it. No, obviously like, and now in retrospect, say, yeah, you know what? Of course the Leafs are probably going to win tomorrow night. They may even win in a game six to force a game seven, but yeah. In the moment and now with the benefit of hindsight, how did you feel about the performance on Saturday? It's, it's really hard to take it all in. I mean, you, you have one of the, I mean, everybody said for the beginning, it's going to lead judge how the core four does the known, you don't want to a series and you're missing the lander who hasn't, it's almost like everything that could run, could go wrong, is going wrong. I mean, he doesn't, he doesn't play with a mystery ailment and then he comes back and he's, he's rusty. I mean, there's, that's just natural to come into that kind of a playoff series when he hasn't been active stuff on him. And then it's like when that second period started and I like, there's no Matthews and you know, Samson, I was out of the net, I'm like, what's, what's going on here? Like, there's ghosts and then there's ghosts and it's, it's, it's hard to watch. And I mean, I feel for because, you know, they are, they are, they are much more difficult team to play against. But I just can't figure it out and now I do the decision, even the goaltending decision. You've painted yourself into a corner now that you've probably lost Samson off in between the years. And so you come back with, well, I mean, I guess the one. And bright light. I mean, among other things, they still think that if they, if they win in Boston, I think they'll win the series. I don't know what, what's like, I just think that's, that's the way that you think the Maple Leafs will win the series. If they win tomorrow night or I think they will win the series. Yes, I do. I don't think I don't, I just just seem so confusing. Why can't I say that? Yeah, honestly, that's, that is as good argument as I've heard of it's the Leafs literally anything that could happen. It's still met them now. I mean, tomorrow night, if they, if Boston gets cute and all of a sudden, it's not like it's a tough decision. But if they come back and go, I'll mark or something like go back to the little rotation, which is fine. But it's just, I think one of the funnier lines that I heard, it's like when I guess it was for more of the teams that were massively favored is don't play with your food. Get it over with. Yeah. And, and I mean, like the better teams like you saw what happened with the Rangers don't lay around. Just get it done at Carolina's. You know, as soon as you open the door on the National Hockey League, anything can happen. And this team has shown if they can get on a run, they can get on a run. So you don't want to just keep kicking them, just end the story and try and put them out because there's still so many questions. The teams that seem to have success, they don't have these questions every night. Like, who are we going to start in that, you know, what, what 60 are we going to go? What, what, what are our lives going to be tomorrow night? Like, do we mix it up now? And the Leafs seemingly have all these same questions again, like it, and some of the unfortunately, some of it's health related, right? Like, you can't question anything off to Matthews has done all year long. And now there's a mystery element that, you know, your number one player might not be in the lineup, so it's, it's really mystifying because you kind of, you always wonder how are they going to find a way to kind of screw things up when they've got everybody on side with, you know, just, just everything, momentum-wise and, and now it seems that health has played a part of it and then some poor performance is a played a part of it. A lot of self-inflicted wounds here I want, I don't want to give Boston as much credit as I've liked as far as some of the Leafs have just not, not lived up to their billing. Yeah, I don't think Boston's been incredible in this series. I mean, there have been players that have had good series and, you know, Marchon's been doing his thing, but yet hasn't been exactly like the terrorizing Bruins of, of yesterday year and even Swamin, like the numbers are great and he has had moments where he's felt unflappable, but it's not exactly been like a Jaya Shiger run from, from way back when either, you know, you mentioned the Matthews illness and man, I, I don't know if you have an example you can think of I can't, and then maybe the differences, we just don't hear the exact explanation of it. I can't remember a player getting pulled by the doctors from an illness, but how does that color, the way the team kind of goes from here? If this series, you know, wraps up, be it in five, six or seven, you don't want to make excuses for this team. Nobody does and nobody should, but if Austin Matthews is a lesser version and not just a little dinged up, but he's clearly really fighting something here, that has to color your perception. I mean, he's the best player on the team. He's the best goal scorer in the league. How do you look and have, you know, sober analysis of it? Well, also understanding that, yeah, things maybe would have been a little different if you had Matthews at full flight. It's too big of a process today, Jeff. First of all, you're bang on. I've never heard of it. First of all, Darrell Sutter away kicked crap out of the doctor before he got into the dressing room in Los Angeles. You'd have been like at the door with like a cattle branding iron like, don't you dare. Don't you dare. You never, you never would have got to, but no, but it, it's just unfortunate because he's such an elite player. But when you do look at the big picture, I mean, a glass to your boss and broke every record for wins, et cetera, I believe in the National Hockey League. You know, and what's their reward for that? They go out in the first trial, plus they, arguably their best player retires in Bergeron, who's always been, you know, nemesis with the scratch he's gone. So you start to peel back what they lost. And then basically, with the least added, you know, it should, there should be a different result at the end of it. And again, I mean, you can't, you can say whatever the curse of the, you know, the jersey, they've never just been, but I just don't buy into that stuff because there are too many people that weren't a part of that. That kind of awesome. It's just another level of frustration. And I think it forces, I don't think they're going to have the option, especially because I think that Brad has done a very good job making this team alter competitive, giving, having limited assets left from the previous general manager and, and not a lot of cap space to try and put it together a group that's more competitive. And I think it was proven this team can play that way. And, but now the, I think obviously it's going to cost the, it's going to cost the coach an operator his job. I mean, it's difficult. That's unfortunate. That's the way the business works. That's a lever that has to be pulled if they don't succeed and pull themselves out of it. And I think you're going to have to look at that, the core four and something's going to have to be done to, to either get themselves another back end defense, then that, you know, it's, it's just, it's a group all along. Just to have that many debates, what your pairs are going to be like, and what it's going to look like. It's just not, it's not a comfortable feeling for the management spot. Just particularly the lefty righty thing that when you look at the team, the top teams that you see now in the playoffs, whether it's Colorado or I mean, Vegas is way over the top, how balanced they are. And in your line at the left, you righty match up in the balance. You just have a bit of an internal grin from a management standpoint when you write down here's top six or seven and look at your options as opposed to trying to fit, pay pieces in where they don't necessarily gel. And that, that's the way it is basically the least defensive core, like break down, their units, they're not, they're not individually, they're not good players, but they just don't seem to match up well as pairs. And that gets exposed on the playoffs. And now again, I don't know. I question, I guess, as I hate questioning stuff, but the Samsonov thing, I just think he's been so good down the stretch. I didn't think he was the reason in on Saturday night to be held accountable and to make the goaltending change. And now, again, do you come back with him? I don't, I think he played that card. Now you've got to come back with one. There's, there's more question marks there. So yeah, it's a tough one. Just the same questions, but how many, I mean, the same right now, the see, I just feel that uneasy feeling about listening to the same exit interviews for whatever the fourth year in a row where it's like, yeah, we just got to find a way to punch a puncture. And you know, it's just, it's off. I mean, especially after last year, you know, I thought, I mean, I thought they didn't outplay Tampa, but are sorry to find a way to get through that series. It was massive. And there has to be growth. There has to be growth. Like every team that has the success, they at least go two or three rounds before and really feel what it's like to run that marathon. And then if you don't succeed, at least you've got something to fall back on. But to constantly have each first round struggles, it's not acceptable. And it's unfortunate, but it's going to probably result in, and it's not going to be easy for tree, but he's going to have to make some tough decisions on where to move forward from here. But I will stick by my momentum NHL guns if there's one series that I think one win to the stick night, an actual flurry of momentum as if they go in and find a way to be in Boston. I do think it goes. Go ahead. Sorry. Oh, I was just going to say because it's twofold, right? Like the Leafs get the Leafs win tomorrow and they're feeling a little better and come home. But then Boston's looking at in the mirror going, Oh, God, is this last year all over again. You know, you mentioned the exit interviews and we've heard it time and time again. I don't know if you heard a ton of them, but Keith was, he had no interest in being, to be perfectly honest, remotely critical of his team after Saturday night. Do you think that's the right tact for him to take? We hear all time about how coaches will kind of tear you down all year long and then build you up right as you're in the post season. I also remember Rick bonus being very blunt about his team's effort in a post season loss last year. Do you think it was the right tact by Keith to kind of whole hum the game? I mean, he was very non-critical in his post game comments. You know, I don't want to touch. I agree if you could as soon as you mentioned the crisis, you started down that path. I thought Rick bonus and you followed it up with Rick bonus because and then this year, you know, they come out in there, you know, they're absolutely awesome. And then what's going on? Hey, we're, they're still a great now. Do you not think that he's probably thinking the same things? Oh, yeah. In the last year after watching what they've got themselves into. And so I'm sure it's, it's definitely something that he thought about going up to the podium that I just can't. I'm not going to go down the what he probably internally is thinking about some of the performances. It's just at this point. It's, it's just night. I don't think the fire and brimstone with one game left is going to, like, especially with this group, but I've never seen them notoriously respond well to any kind of public criticism. So it's probably not going to do any good, although it would have been necessary. But it's also, it's, it's who's dealing it, right? And that's it. Again, this is nothing because I think Sheldon's a great hockey mind and he's done an admirable job and nobody cares about it more. But there's certain people when they're delivering that message, it holds a little bit more. I guess if you've been there, done that yourself, if you're the, like, if you're John Cooper, who's got two rings and you decide to go down that tack, maybe it has a little bit more, a little bit more of an impact when you haven't done it yourself and people could pull out and say, well, one of you, you know, where's your track record of taking this to another level? Then maybe your messages are different, like, and that's just the way today's athlete is, unfortunately. I mean, like, it's Joel Kenville sitting there with three chandeliers on his ring, and there's frisk, and you don't want, he can probably, he can have a little bit more impact when he makes statements like that. So I don't, I don't think the other option would have been, I thought it was a little too, a little too. Wow, we almost did. We're really working, all right, we're great. It was a little tough to take, but I don't know what else he could have said other than just basically reaching for four more years of, here we go again, we've got our backs up against it. Now we've got to, we've got to change the, we've got to change the narrative. It's actually hard to believe that they're, that we're talking about it all over again, but we're talking about it all over again. So yeah, the face of it is Mitch Marner and the picture, the lasting image will be him throwing his gloves on the bench, right? And I think the reason why Sheldon Keith mostly has stayed away from public criticism is because we glom on to everything in this market, right? Like we hear everything and even the smallest little thing turns into something big. Those guys on the bench know that we, we got a camera in their faces the whole game. Like there is nothing you can do in public view that we won't know about or pick over and clearly when Mitch Marner throws his gloves, I don't know in the moment if it's like as calculated as, as knowing that people are going to, to watch that on repeat and that's going to be the lasting image of this series. But what were you thinking when you saw the replay of what took place there in the second period? I was, if I was a teacher, it'd be like, okay, go in the corner and take a time out, you're out of the sandbox. You're not allowed to throw your toys here. It was, it's got to be frustrated because this guy is an unbelievable talent, right? And if you go back and roll back, great. We're talking about the 70 goals and stuff like that and Matthew's continuing to score when he was out of the lineup. You can make an argument, man, that power play went good sour when he, when he was off it. So this guy's clearly an incredibly skilled guy. I don't think anybody cares more about playing in the city of Toronto than a Toronto kid. But you start to wonder if it's ever going to work because of their clear of the pressure that's on and the internal love/hate relationship that's developed with him in the fan base. And I don't think that kind of an emotional gesture whereas somebody might go, wow, man, this kid cares. The naysayers are going to go the exact opposite and say, wow, man, like what a sock or whatever the words you like. That's not, that is not a productive move throwing your bench, throwing your gloves in the bench. And again, if it has somebody that has got two or three series wind under his belt or has got a ring or something like that, you're going to look at that and probably look at it completely different. If you saw like whatever, but sometimes it's just not their makeup, right? If they break right now, control off down three nothing. So the Florida Panthers turn around their fire's gloves. You'd probably go, man, he's pissing off, man, this guy's ready to roll, right? But there's so much track record of success that you look at something like that differently. But when you're under that microscope as you show eloquently described and you do something like that, it's really hard to look at it as a positive gesture of caring. It's just an additional frustration to the series and video montage that Hockstein Candle put together. And if you don't have success, stuff like that on film ends up in the end of series video, as opposed to highlights of scoring and celebration. And you just add to the math. Yeah, it's not great. Not not ideal. But yeah, they can certainly change the narrative starting tomorrow night in Boston. FUDA, always a pleasure, man. Thanks for doing this. Thanks, my friends. Hope we're talking about some more positive later in the week. Gotta let me know. Tommy comes in and spanks us. We're faithful, but hopefully there's brighter, brighter times ahead this week. Yeah, hard to imagine gets much worse, but we'll see. You never know. Thanks, Mike. See you guys. Mike FUDA, two times Stanley Cup champion NHL executive are inside or brought to you by Don Valley, North Lexus, where you can expect excellence online and in the showroom, visit Don Valley, North Lexus.com. I think that's a great point that Mike brings up in two regards. One is the Sheldon Keefe taking his team to task with the lack of bona fides and two, it's like we got the Mitch Marner entire track record. And we also have what we think we can all do is read the lips of William Neelander, which is like, stop crying. And that was before the glove throw. So we assume that means like his gesturing towards officials during the course of the game. And then for him to do for our purposes, more crying, like throwing your gloves is, yeah, that's the same thing. That's crying. That's just crying for a guy who's had the limited postseason track record that he has. It's hard to interpret that any other way than the most negative version of it. Yeah, I mean, like we all like, well, I shouldn't say we all. I hope we're all lucky enough to have like, you know, a somewhat large group of friends and different people deal with different instances in different ways. Some people see adversity and they steal themselves for it. Some people see adversity and I'll hand up for myself in this and go, I'm scared. I don't like this. It's probably going to rock me. And I just met, I don't know how you can look at it any other way than the frustration being palpable. It bubbles over for different people in different ways. Also, food to mention there, he had the like the verbal slip of throwing the bench. I would feel differently. But if Marner just stood up and went full, who is it? Robby Fatorek, who actually threw the bench, that had been a different tact. I don't think I would have felt any differently about it. But God, that would have been very different than throwing the gloves. It's hard because we're all doing the same thing. I think, listen, I don't know that this is what he's thinking. But I think everybody thinks that this is what he's thinking is this isn't fair, right? Like, don't we all think that Mitch Marner's like, it's not fair for various different reasons. Like, I've been, I have been on record that I think that he never in a million years could have envisioned that he would be as great as he is, the star player for the Leafs. And there'd be a better guy. Like, I don't think that's why he was frustrated. But it's just, I think there's all ways we all envision our life to go. Yeah. Because, I mean, maybe it's, he's throwing the gloves. He's like, I'm not doing well enough. I'm sure that is part of it, hard of it. But again, like going back to the interaction with the officials and what we've seen on the ice is like, this is, yeah, it's hard not to think that it's not all about self accountability in that moment. But who knows? Maybe Bill Jaffee, perhaps. It's going to give us the the Bruins perspective of what's going, what's happened here through these first four games and what could be happening in the Bruins, Brains? Perhaps Shambles could be created if the Maple Leafs can win a game in Boston tomorrow. Can we put them there? I guess Mitch Marner would be putting the shambles in somebody else's brain. Perhaps a Shambles transference in the offing, a Shambles for your Shambles. All right. Bill Jaffee, NHL Network and Nessin Analyst Naxas. The fan morning show continues Banana Sprint Gunning, Sportsnet 590 The Fan. Covering the Blue Jays from an analytical perspective, Jay's Talk Plus with Blake Murphy. Be sure to subscribe and download Jay's Talk on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Fan Morning Show Sportsnet 590 The Fan, Banana Sprint Gunning. Here are the facts, okay? We'll last 12 months. Maple Leafs have one more postseason series victory than the Boston Bruins guy. Scoreboard. Now the Boston Bruins have, you want to talk about a team that's made for the regular season. How about the Boston Bruins of 2023? The best. And you thought, man, actually, I should have checked this, the betting lines, you thought the Rangers were favored over the capitals, the Bruins over the Panthers going into that series big temp. And then they go up three games to one. I was like, Oh, well, thanks for coming out. What a great way to ease their way into the postseason for this historic regular season team. They get this powder puff Panthers team. Yeah, of course, we probably not. We know what happened after that. And I guess Leenis Almark might have been dealing with some sort of injury, but whatever, Jeremy Swamin started game seven. Yep. And they lost in overtime. He's good to lastly check Jeremy Swamin. Yes. So now I guess, like, if you're going to talk about the shambles and the Bruins brains, you have to compare the Toronto Maple Leafs to last year as Florida Panthers who made it all the way to the Cup final and then carry that over into this season and look pretty darn good despite not being able to quite close up the lightning yet. Yeah, but, okay, you win one tomorrow. They're having the conversation in Boston. I'll bet. You know, who would know for sure. Our next guest, Billy Jaffe, nessin and NHL network analyst. How's it going, Billy? Morning. How you guys doing? We're doing all right. It's been a no, it's been a long morning. We've been breaking it down. We've been talking about temper tantrums. It's been a long morning and we're both parents. We're not talking about our kids. I'm only laughing because, you know, sports radio in Boston can be pretty tough, you know, on everything. So they can only imagine what's going on up there. Sometimes you just got it. You just got to chuckle and remember, you know, it's just sports after all. Nice. Yeah. But it's it's all we do on the show. So yeah, we're going to take it very seriously. I know. And it is a religion here in the city. As you well know, Billy, following this Leafs team, it's been a rough, you know, rough almost 60 years, but like a particularly rough decade considering all the optimism of year one under Austin Matthews and him being on pace not to just be the best Toronto Maple Leaf of all time, like maybe the best scorer in the history of the sport. And they have one series victory to show for it. Any who let's start with this. Like just hey, regular season wise, there's reason to believe that the Bruins are just better than the Maple Leafs. Like is after watching four games of this, is that just the conclusion we should all come to? The Bruins are just better than the Toronto Maple Leafs. I think in some ways they are, but you know, guys, for a couple of games, we kept saying on our shows and our pre games and posts and everything and that the Leafs played pretty darn well and did a lot of good stuff. And some of these games were tough. In some ways, the Bruins are better sure that no, I mean, they've got better goal tending. They just do. You know, you know, you don't need a hockey analyst to tell you that. They seem to have some better structure. And that's very important. Do they have anywhere near the potential of high offensive skill? No, they don't. They've got some amazing players. The Bruins do offense, but it's a different view on how to score. So the Leafs have got a lot of good, but the Bruins, I'd say, are a better team, but that doesn't mean that this Bruins team is that like, this is going to be tough. Like, I know you guys were already talking about last year and this and that and everything, but I can't imagine that the Leafs don't come out absolutely breathing fire tomorrow night. I mean, if they don't, I'd be shocked. I mean, they have to be and they have to be ready to put on a performance that will, you know, a theory in theory that we haven't seen yet. And they were good in game two, actually very good in game one as well. But you know, they're going to be even better in game five. Yeah, it's not a it's not an exact comparison because Boston's been in this. Well, we keep thinking it's a transition period. And then the team just keeps winning. But they've been in this near transition period for a couple of years. Well, the Leafs have been trying to build up to get to where Boston's been quite frankly, you know, so much of the talk with the Leafs year after year after year is sure goal tending, sure secondary scoring. But there's been so much a talk of toughness. This team's needed to get tougher. Was there a kind of Achilles heel from the Boston team last year that really needed to kind of be addressed? Or was there a roster, construction kind of idea that they went into this season looking to fix, give them what happened last year? Or was it just kind of a continuation of what Sweden has been building for the last couple of years here? Well, I wouldn't say I mean, look, they lost 10 players off the roster from last year. You know, it's well documented. The top two centers retire and then you trade away Fellino and Hall, et cetera. So was that because of what happened in the playoffs? Probably there was going to be changes no matter what to that roster last year, just because of the age of it and and salary cap. I do think that, you know, yes, they wanted to play with their, and you knew they'd have to play more defensively structured at times. The big thing from last year, and I hope this answers your question, is that they just, they didn't handle the adversity that happened all of a sudden in game five just started to happen in game five against Florida. Well, they didn't respond to that. Now, how do you change that? I don't know, maybe you have to go through it once, guys, to, you know, really say, okay, we're not going to let it happen again. I guess the proof and that that that putting will be tomorrow night. We'll see how the Bruins, you know, come out. But there's no doubt that the Bruins felt they need to be a little more defensive. They need to be a little faster. They needed to have a little bit more of an element of, I think, toughness is such a general term because toughness isn't about just hits. I mean, if you look at the hits, I don't have it in front of me. I think Toronto is above the Bruins in this series, you know, like, this isn't just about hits. It's about, well, right, but it's, I felt the least were chasing hits early on in the series, and then they settled down. They actually got better. So it's toughness isn't about that. Toughness is about, you know, everybody's willing to battle once. Most guys will battle twice. It's that third battle. When you look, when you skate away with the puck, and that's what the Bruins have more of. And it's a long way of getting back to something I want to bring up because you were talking about how the Leafs have been trying to build up the Bruins keep on winning. It's about culture as far as I'm concerned. And the Bruins culture, they continue to win because every few years they're developing no coincidence the new leadership group and how they expect things to be done, how they want things to be done. And yet they also allow these young leaders, you know, Martians, not a young guy, but the coils, the posture, not et cetera, the Brandon Carlos, boy, he's been fantastic for the Bruins. He's been a difference maker in this series, and I don't think a lot of people talk about him, but it's those young guys that continue to mature and allow the Bruins to continue to win. Does it mean they're going to win the big one every, of course, not, but it means they're always going to be competitive, especially when you add in good gold tending and an overall nice deep roster. >> Mm-hm. And yeah, I may believe some power play that is anemic is like is complimentary. I mean, they scored once, but boy, they've looked horrible, especially considering the offensive talent. So what I'm about to ask you, it's not a difference in the series, because again, the Leafs can't score on the power play, but Brad Marshan was tied for 37th in the NHL and penalty minutes during the regular season. He has taken zero in the first four games of the series. Would that have surprised you, Billy, if I told you that before the series? >> Maybe, I mean, sure, I think he got away. They didn't call the elbow a couple of games ago. I thought he got away with that, but he's been an absolute, I mean, he's been a magnificent leader. I'm sure Leafs Sanblis and we don't want to hear that, but he's been just phenomenal. >> I don't want to hear it, but you're right, Billy. Just because I don't want to hear it, doesn't mean you're not right. >> Right. I mean, he's been it's been remarkable. I mean, there's, this is a guy that was just so amazingly, in awe, it's not the right term, but so respectful of being main captain of this team. He didn't want to let this team down. He has learned a lot, he has grown a lot. So to answer your question, maybe, yeah, sure. I think you always think Brad's going to get a penalty or two, but he has been on such a mission in these playoffs so far in this series to lead by example. And I mean, he didn't even have to do anything starting in game one when Domi was starting to slash from an opening face up. I mean, that was Domi leading, that was Domi basically saying, you know, I'm going to show you and Brad's like, okay, go ahead, go ahead. He was on, you know, he never, Brad hasn't crossed the line. He's had the epic battles, he's had some great battles with Bertuzzi. You can argue about goals could have been here and there. I got to tell you something, let them play both of them. If they had called Kelly's fine. Okay, but if that's playoff hockey to me, but he has been, he has been absolutely tremendous. He's been the leader that the Bruins thought he would be knew he would be when they named him captain of this team. I want to go back to something you said about the blue line there and like again, I'll just echo, I hate to hear it, but you couldn't be more right about everything you just said about Marshawn. I get it like once every decade when we get like best on best, then I get to cheer for him when he's on Sydney Crosby's wing. That's nice. But other than that, yeah, can't can't stand how right you are about everything that was said there. You mentioned how good Carlo has been in this series. I don't know how much this was really in the cards, but there was some belief in me talking to some people out of Boston that there was a world where the Bruins were going to load up that pair to kind of chase around Matthews with Lynn home and Mackaboy playing together. They haven't had to do that part of its been how strong Carlo is played. What are you made of the way that Montgomery has kind of set up the blue line there because maybe it's a little off base, but there was some belief that they were going to load up the Mackaboy Lindhome pair and just sick them on Matthews and then kind of let the rest of the series kind of play itself out. How big is it been that they haven't had to do that? It's enormous. Then you can split up your guys, but yet they in many ways, you can argue that they've loaded up, you know, they're six foot five and they're six with three, six, four men in Lindhome and Carlo together and they've put them on the ice. I mean, look, the fact that I don't want to get on a tangent too much here, but Mason low rise stepped up and had an okay game one for him, meaning game three and a really good game four allows for Jim Montgomery and his staff to keep Carlo and Lindhome together more. You know that Charlie Mackaboy, you know that half this Lindhome are going to be your big dogs on the back and they're all going to play and they have the last couple of games, even more minutes, that's being on the road. So you still have the luxury putting them together, but because Carlo's been so freaking good and he has really had a great season. He's that guy that a lot of people might say don't really know him that much. Even though he's been in the league a while now and but you know, he doesn't get the attention because of a Mackaboy and a Lindhome. I mean, his penalty killing in this series so far has been spectacular, you know, especially the Bruins have been down four on three and his stick work and everything. They're the only team, by the way, in the old playoffs. I couldn't believe this that have been down four on three for multiple actually the only team in the NHL playoffs. So prior to both times they've been they've been outstanding there. Carlo's been a big reason of that. His length, his stick, his reads, he's gotten more physical. And so that allows them to not have to do what you're talking about. And you know what they've gotten, they were getting a lot out of their third pair, which again helps because you can massage things. They're not playing cap and chat and Kirk much at five on five. I'm going to say 10 minutes give or take. They're using him more on the power play. So they're really running 5v. And again, to have a guy like Parker Watherspoon step up for Andrew Peake, Watherspoon's another defense and that a lot of people say who. And but he's been doing it all season when he's been asked of he's really an outstanding number seven defense for the team. Before you let you go. Listen, the they the goal attending tandem was incredible. It has been a tandem basically since February and lean us all mark is the reigning Vess in the champ. I'm not surprised that they went with Jeremy Swamin again on Saturday and all marks still under contract for another year. But it does feel like and correct me if I'm wrong here, Billy. This is like the start of the Jeremy Swamin era in Boston. You know, it's this is a playoff. This is where a lot of people start making names, both the hordes and gold tenders and skaters and gold tenders. It could be. I'm sorry for the cliche answer. I don't think they they care right now. I think they care about game five. That's what it is. And if it's been the other way that leanness was playing, but let's not forget up until the last couple of games before the end of the regular season, I mean literally last three four games. Everybody thought that leanness was going to be the guy. And then you know, Swamin had two really good games at the end of the regular season. And all of a sudden he kind of wrestled control of that. So right now, Jeremy Swamin is showing that he's got this mindset and he does. He is a very he is. He's an emotional goalie, but not, you know, he's watched it at times. You know what I mean? Like he's challenged other guys at times. He's he's wanting to get in this. Remember Joe Wall? They were looking there. He was looking down the ice in the regular season. He's pulled back on that a bit, but he's a very mentally strong gold tender. He's a new age goalie. He loves kind of the mindset type thing. He seems to be in this zone right now. But I mean, is this the start of the Jeremy Swamin air? I'm just saying it's the start of the Jeremy Swamin era in this playoff round. Because yes, and I mean, sincerely, yes, if the Bruins advance past the least, and this is going to be a brutally tough game, I can't imagine it won't be tomorrow night. If they do, somehow in the next couple of games went and move on, I would we will see leanness or market again, you will in the playoffs if the Bruins advance. It's just it's just how it is here. So you never know what can happen. We'll see maybe we see that desperation from the Leafs tomorrow night that we didn't see on Saturday. But we can imagine can you guys imagine that they don't bring it? I I watch the first 40 minutes on Saturday, though, Billy, that felt like that was desperation time as well. And they couldn't have looked less desperate. I completely disagree. The Leafs are going to win like six two or something. And that's no knock on the Bruins. This is just what they do when they are at their absolute it's Godfather three, like every time you're out, they pull you back in. It's what they do, Billy. Well, that's what we'll make tomorrow night incredibly interesting. Of course, the Bruins are going to face a lot of what did you learn from last year? I was checking the roster seven of the seven guys from that roster are no longer that were in that game. This game five against Florida's not there. And everybody, you know, you were talking about the marsh and breakaway with one point one or less than seconds left in the game could have changed the tenor of everything. But there's a long way to go. The Bruins are going to face a lot of those questions. And and while it is a different team, those those questions are fair because it's just all the history is what we can use as a guide right now. Let's see what the Bruins have learned. But I can't imagine tomorrow night isn't a very, very fun game. And what I mean by fun, I mean by intense. I just I just can't imagine it won't be. Yep, we'll see. Billy, appreciate the time. Thanks. All right, guys, take care. Billy Joffee, Nusson and NHL number again, sure. Yeah, Leafs can win. Again, like, if desperation and like looking like this is the be all end all is what we're expecting. Maybe we see it. I would have thought we saw it on Saturday. Yeah. And nobody I don't I don't want to make excuses. Like the team's best player got pulled out of the game for being deathly ill. Like you don't get it there. It just cascades down the line up. And I like that's not an excuse. It's just we've also seen this team do this a billion times. I will say if they come out flat on tomorrow tomorrow night, then I don't I don't think anything was off the table to begin with in terms of changes. But it almost feels like everything is on the table immediately. Like the tenor that will come out of a flat loss after the flat loss in game four. If that's what happens here, I don't know how that doesn't affect the immediacy of what happens. Not what happens. But the immediacy of it. Let's play this thing out. Sure. So Sheldon Keith, like I said, I understand his tact. Yeah, I do too. Like part of it is, hey, I know what I have to do to get the best out of this team. And also I believe part of it is, hey, if I do this other thing, we haven't done that in my entire tenure here. Okay, there's been like little sort of tiptoes. Come on, if the bars were bonus, like it's not even close, right? If I come out and do that after game four, despite the fact that there is literally time to come back in the series, I've indicated to everybody it's freak out time. Yeah. So I understand why you wouldn't do it. At the conclusion of this series, when he knows he's done, like, I guess you could maybe convince yourself that like, hey, I'm still appealing to my bosses here. And look, I'm still a good soldier here. And I guess you're thinking about your next job too. But like, why wouldn't you put all your cards on the table? I'm interested to hear like, we finally get the unvarnished. You can't tell me that Sheldon keep watch the first 40 minutes on Saturday and was like, that's good. That was good enough. Oh, just ran into a good goalie and a good defensive defensively sound hockey team. I mean, do we finally get the unvarnished truth that the conclusion of this series when he knows it's over? It's so funny because I could talk myself into either side of it. Like, and I think the fact that it's the Leafs colors this. I think that it's not like all these other GMs are like, you know, Canucks fan 282 who's sitting there going, yeah, rip the Leafs. I think there's an element of goodwill that would be had across the league. If you were seen to be taken that team to task, but of course, the other side of it is, if you're about to hire someone, do you want them to show that they're willing to air all the dirty laundry on the way out? I would think the better tactic to take would be the first one to go fire and brimstone. Tell us exactly how you feel. Don't save that for a job interview. But I got totally see the world where again, if he's Rick Bowness and does this with the Jets, we brought it up today a year after the fact we didn't spend a lot of time talking about Rick Bowness doing that. No, said it in the moment and was like, okay, the Jets head coach said a thing. Who cares? Let's move on. It's different doing it as head coach of the Leafs, but and I can talk myself into either side of it. That's why God, it's painful, but it's always such fun time here. Yeah, I would I would like to know how he truly does feel like he's he can't honestly be looking at the shot chair at five on five in the first 40 minutes. Honestly, honestly, what I think he feels is this is not good enough. But the best player on the team is dying and had to be pulled out of the game by the doctors like I got like it is. I cannot everyone we talk to has done hockey stuff cannot remember that happening. I think his unvarnished truth would be, oh my God, this guy's getting pulled from the game. We've got our second star player throwing a temper tantrum on the bench and the other guy just came back from migraines is honestly the unvarnished truth. And is that the right tag to take? That ain't it either. But that's what I think you'd actually get. All right, we'll be back tomorrow with another edition of the fan morning show. Ben and his Brent Gunning Sportsnet 5.9 in the fan. Good morning. (dramatic music)
