VIEWPOINT with Chuck Crismier
SHOULD CHRISTIANS VOTE?
[music] This is Viewpoint with Attorney and Author Chuck Chris Meyer. Viewpoint is a one-hour open-line talk show confronting the issues of America's heart and home. To express your Viewpoint, please call 804-754-1988. That's 804-754-1988. And now with today's edition of Viewpoint, here is Chuck Chris Meyer. Should Christians be involved in politics or should Christians not be involved in politics? Should Christians avoid politics like the plague or should they be involved in politics because of the plague? Today on Viewpoint, we're to talk about this matter of Christian involvement in politics, Christians, politics, and the art of bearing witness for Christ. And all of that is going to be a very open conversation here today on Viewpoint. It may actually cause some to, you know, think, really think about this subject. Of course, when you think and talk about the subject of Christians involved in politics, you have to wonder why 30% of professing Christians did not vote in the last couple of presidential elections. I wonder why if we have responsibility in this role as Christians in the civilization in which we live, should we not take some kind of responsibility for at least representing the cause of Christ in at least the moral standards of the Scriptures with regard to the laws that govern us? Just asking. But today on Viewpoint, we're going to have an open conversation with regard to this. Some people say that the church suffers negative consequences because of its participation in politics. And others say the church is suffering negative consequences because it doesn't affect politics. What's the real answer here? Our guest today says politics can easily become a fetish or an unreasonable and distorted theological devotion to politics. It can become an obsession. Well, it's not an obsession for those who refuse to vote. So somewhere there's a problem. There's a problem in our thinking. Does the political apparatus of the United States supplant God rather than sending under God's authority? Or when we do vote and we get involved in politics, is that also representing God's authority? You see, there are two sides to this coin. Today we present both sides to the coin, and I'm glad that you've joined us. Its conversation is always with ever increasing conviction. Talk the transforms. Yes, here on Viewpoint, confronting the deepest issues of America's heart and home from God's. Eternal perspective. Special guest joining us. He wants to talk about serpents and doves. Now with his serpents and doves have to do with politics. We're going to have to find that out. But Dr. James Spencer is joining us with his brand new book, Serpents and Doves, Christians, politics, and the art of bearing witness. James, it's good to have you on the program. Yeah, thanks for having me here. I appreciate it. Well, this is worthy of conversation. It's worthy of discussion. I ran twice for the state legislature in Southern California back in 1976, our nation's bicentennial year, and also in 1978. And I felt that God had called me to do that. He wanted me to do that. He didn't tell me that I was going to win. He just told me to run, which I did as an act of obedience. And through that, God did many things in my own life without which I may not actually be doing this program today. On the other hand, after that time, the Lord spoke to my heart. He said, "Son, that was in 1992." He said, "Son, you've been pleading the cause of men long enough as a trial lawyer. I want you to plead my cause. And the land is a voice to the church declaring vision for the nation. In America's greatest crisis hour here on the near edge of the Second Coming, I said, "Yes, sir." We formed Save America Ministries to rebuild the foundations of faith and freedom. And it had almost nothing to do with politics. It had everything to do with our true faith in Jesus Christ. So it seems to me there is a profound balance that has to be set and understood with regard to this matter of the involvement of professing Christians in the political world, our responsibility, or our lack thereof. Help us to understand that just as a brief statement here. Yeah, you know, I'm straight away from the language of balance. And the reason that I have done that is because I don't think that God calls us to balance these different aspects of our lives, which will immerse all those aspects of our lives within a deep and enduring allegiance to him. All right. I buy that. Yeah, I would just say that, you know, our political participation, which I would not suggest that Christians should not participate in politics. What I would say is that our political participation needs to emerge out of a deep discipleship and devotion to God so that it is representative of what we are to be doing for him. It really does portray our deep and enduring love for God in a love for neighbor and a love for country. I agree with that wholeheartedly. I have an illustration that might help us with this. There was an organization called the Christian Coalition that emerged out of the Christian Broadcasting Company and Pat Robertson years ago. And the gentleman who was running that actually left went to form his own political organization business in Texas. And there were two individuals that replaced in Don Haudel and Randy Tate. I believe they were congressman, but in any event, they took over the leadership of the Christian Coalition and they made this statement. If we were to fill every elective office in the United States of America with Christians of the type that we have today in America, America would still not change. They said America will only change if the hearts of the people change. For that, they were summarily fired. Now, why were they fired? Well, that's the question. Why were they fired? Because they were telling the truth. The heart of the matter is the heart and the heart of our country is we the people. The first three words of our Constitution, the preamble are we the people. It's not about an institution or a corporation or anything like that called the United States of America. It's about we the people, isn't it? I believe so. I mean, I think that as we look at it, it's easy for us to sort of stray into the idea that there are two institutions, let's say, the church and the state. Right. And while I believe that those are entities that need to be distinguished, what I would also say is that those are entities that are made up of individual people. Yes. And that to the extent that those individual people are devoted to God, those institutions can be shaped and formed into something that is more akin to God's order. Well, that's exactly why our second president, John Adams said our government was made for a moral and Christian people and was wholly inadequate to the government of any other. The whole form of the government was established based upon the comprehension of 170 years leading up to 1789 when the Constitution was written. The country didn't really begin as a people in 1789 with the Constitution. It began in 1607 in 1620 and in 1630. Did it not? I mean, I think that early on what we see in the United States, the mixed witness to those who are committed to Christ and really do deeply want the people of the United States to be formed around a Christian conviction. And other people who are interested in following an abstracted set of morals and principles that are inspired by and informed by the Bible, but they don't necessarily recognize the Bible as the final authority for life. I am so glad to hear you say that. I am so glad to hear you say that. How often do we hear this phrase? Well, we're a Judeo-Christian nation found on biblical principles. What does that mean? Let's talk about that when we get back. Is that the way Christians would look at it? Why do we say things like that? What are the roots and what are the implications? We'll be right back with our special guest, Dr. James Spencer. Serpents and doves will find out how serpents and doves get in in a moment. So what happened in just one generation? Hi, I'm Chuck Chris-Mire and I urge you to join me daily on Viewpoint where we discuss the most challenging issues touching our hearts and homes. Could America's moral slide relate to the fourth commandment? Listen to Viewpoint on this radio station or any time at saveus.org. Welcome back to Viewpoint friends. I'm Chuck Chris-Mire. Today on Viewpoint you're going to hear a bunch of viewpoints and thoughts that we need to process as we head toward a 2024 election that many are saying is one of the most important, maybe the most important presidential election in the history of the country. Why would we say that? Perhaps we need to discuss that as well. Our guest today has a special book called Serpents and Doves which I think is well worth every Christian and pastor and paratrooch leader reading. It is available to you for $13 on our website, saveus.org. You can call us at 1-800-Save USA. That's 1-800-Save USA or write to us at Save America Ministries. P.O. Box 70879 Richmond, Virginia 23255, writing a check at $5 for postage and handling. And the very use of the term save America Ministries also in some respects, James, would cause people to wonder, okay, well, what do you mean by that? Which reminds me of an interchange that I had with a former professor of mine 30 years ago when I stepped out of my law office to the Large Lake Avenue Congregational Church across the way for a meeting. And he ran into me there and he says, Chuck, what are you doing now? And I said, well, we just formed a nonprofit called Save America Ministries. And in his usual as Serbic fashion, he said, well, at least you didn't bite off more than you could chew. It's the whole idea. I have actually questioned from time to time whether we should even change the name of the ministry precisely because it can lead people to a wrong impression that it's all about saving a political institution, a corporate institution called the United States of America, but that's not the heart of what God called us to do. The heart of what God called us to do is speak to the heart of the issue, the heart of the people, we the people, and more particularly professing Christians in America because we're God's warmest audience. If he can't get our attention, why are we trying to get anybody else's attention? What say you? That's right. I mean, I think at the end of the day, the church has to recognize that we are the only people in this country and in and around the world who are capable of conveying the gospel to a lost world. We're the only people who can proclaim Christ, and we need to take that extremely seriously in all walks of life. Well, how do we do that, James? How do we do that, James, when we ourselves, according to the admission of probably a dozen or more pastors and paratrooch leaders on this program in the last few years, have said the word obey is the most hated word in the church. Yeah, I think it's very difficult. I think one of the things that I've found as I've worked with different congregations and different people is that we just have to keep drilling at home. I think we're ultimately going to miss a lot of folks who are unwilling to obey Jesus Christ. But the essence of discipleship, you can't escape the idea that we are to observe all Christ commanded. There has to be this element of obedience that we drive home with all of the people who claim to be Christian. Well, Jesus said, if you don't obey me, Jesus said, if you don't obey me and keep my commandments, what's the use? If you love me, you'll obey me. If you don't love me, you won't obey me. If you love me and obey me, I'm my father will manifest ourselves to you. So the very heart of what it means to follow Jesus is to do his will obey him just as he obeyed the father. He said, you follow me. I obey the father. Now you obey me. And together, when we do that and respect the Word of God as the final and ultimate authority in our lives will be in unity together. But we're striving a false kind of unity thinking that we can have unity of feelings without unity of obedience. What say you? Well, I would say that I think that one of the things that we need to do is sort of translate obedience into a language made me most of us can understand. Obedience is a bit of a strategy for Christians. When we look out at the world and we're trying to navigate all the challenges that we're facing, what we realize is we read the old and the New Testament. I would go back to something like a Deuteronomy 3020 that talks about God being the part like in the length of our day. Right. What we realize is obedience is a strategy for living into the order that God had intended to establish prior to the fall. Is it a strategy? I'm concerned about the word strategy because it sounds like something it's man made up. It's not a strategy. It is the means by which God is ordained that we walk in his presence and receive his blessing. I think that's why I'm trying to convey with that term. I think it is the if we look out at the world and we say, how now shall I live? The only answer that Christians really can come up with is in obedience to the will of God. Exactly. We've got to somehow figure out how to convey that obedience is our smartest move in every single situation because God is infinitely more relevant than any other actor or factor we're ever going to encounter. Well, here's what happens. I grew up in the church, had been in many denominations. My father was a pastor for 50 years. My pastor for 40, even though I was practicing law and doing other things. And so I've been involved in many denominations and have had over 3500 national guests on this program in the past 29 years. Here's what I've discovered. And that is from the premier focus of pastors, parachurch leaders, and even the writing of books and so on, the real manifestation of obedience to Christ is go make spiritual babies. It's called evangelism. That's not the nature of the great commission. The great commission is discipleship teaching people to obey everything and he's commanded. We have completely distorted the purpose, the fundamental purpose of the kingdom of God. You can't just make a bunch of babies out there and allow them to be stillborn and die on the vine. But that's what we've done. And then we call that obedience. No, that's not obedience. That's a pretense of obedience that we can market to raise money for our ministries because we can notch our belts to say we got this many people that made confessions of faith. You can't do that with discipleship. And discipleship is at the very heart of what it means to change and become part of the kingdom of God and manifest his presence in this civil body politic that we live in, isn't it? It is. And I think that the lack of discipleship is often a point of confusion for much of what we do as a church. Yes, because we're not learning to live under the authority of Jesus Christ. If we look at the great commission, we see that it begins with Christ saying I have been given all authority on earth and in heaven. And so really what we're doing is we're teaching people to live under the authority of Christ. We're trying to help them understand what it looks like to imitate him to trade our desires for his desire. And as we miss that part of it, we become something that is sort of a distortion, a mutant, if you will, what the church should be versus what the world actually is. A pretense between there. We have a lot of problems. Exactly. So what you have just stated is the truth, and that is our real problem is authority. We have an authority crisis in the church. And because we have an authority crisis in the church, we have an authority crisis in the nation. People are afraid. I just spoke this week down at the courthouse, not courthouse, but the house of government here in Virginia and was asked concerning the first landing and remembering the first landing in 1607 and the planning of a cross. And I said, look, friends, our problem here is that we do not see our responsibility to be the followers of Christ in this country. And so we're concerned about the breakdown of the Constitution. We're concerned about the defiance of the Constitution and its authority. Well, it's just a fallout to our own defiance of the Bible as the Constitution in the Christian community. It was almost like, Oh, wow, what a revelation. Yeah. Isn't that where we are? It is. And then I think one of the perspectives that I sort of grabbed onto is this idea that God gives Israel to belong the Old Testament. This is a divinely originated instruction nation, the Torah. And yeah, and yet Israel doesn't follow it. Really. And so the the arrogance of us to think that we can create a system that will sustain and restrain human evil through man-made rational means. I think we're neglecting the sort of force of our own depravity. We're neglecting the force of our own intended feature rebel and the very nature of why Jesus came in the kingdom of God. That's right. That's right. We need God to work in our hearts so that he can work for beating an inner. Now, have you ever read John Winthrop's model of Christian charity that he writes on? Oh, my goodness, my friend, you must read it. You've got to get a copy of my book renewing the soul of America that was endorsed by 38 national Christian leaders. It's in the appendix. John Winthrop, a godly attorney brought over four boat loans, a Puritans in 1630. They had no governing. They were outside the Virginia Charter. So they had to write their own charter. It's called a model of Christian charity. It's a number of pages long. If you were to read it, you would be so profoundly inspired. So inspiring was that document that six Berkeley professors wrote a book, Habits of the Heart, in the 1980s saying that that expression was perhaps the preeminent expression of the American vision ever penned. And it was all about Christ and his kingdom. That's what it was all about. That's what was at the heart of this country. When the pilgrims landed in 1620, they also were outside the Virginia Charter. And so they penned their own in the name of God, Amen. They began and then said, to order a civil body politic, we're going to set forth these basic constrictions as to how to govern ourselves, but it was for the purpose of the advancement of the Christian faith and living out the fullness of the gospel that had originally been committed to Israel, but was reneged upon. That's what's missing. I think that as I look at that, that I think through that sort of conception, I'm immediately drawn to it, because I do believe that Christ needs to be central in the transformation of human heart. I don't think that we can get around that I think any time we try to apply something like the 10 Commandments or, as you mentioned before the break, the Judeo Christian ethic. Right. To try to govern ourselves. What we're doing is probably something that's pretty good. That's going to help us restrain the evil of humankind. I think there's a place for that government is put in place in order to enact justice and to gesture toward the justice that God will actually bring. But I also think that there's a part of me that wants that sort of Christian focus that truly Christ centered focus for him mean within the church that it is a body governed, not by a civil structure, but by the transformation of the heart that comes as we connect ourselves in faith to Jesus Christ and have a heart transform through the Holy Spirit. The heart of the matter is always hard. I want to keep that. Yeah, and I want to keep those two distinct, not separate in the way that we often think about separation of church and state. But I do want to keep those distinct because I think that any time we we try to force or push Christ into a civil mode, we are picking up all of the difficulty that come along with that civil society in which, you know, civil society isn't exactly voluntary, but it's also not a called organization. In other words, none of us were called to America. I was born here. You know, some people immigrate here. How do you know you want called to the kingdom for such a time as this James? Come on, get real, man. I would absolutely, I would absolutely agree with that. Oh, okay. I can call the kingdom, but I'm not sure that there's a similar calling in the same way of being called to be an American because what we see here is that we've got a lot of, we live in a plural of society where we tolerate a number of different beliefs. But the church is a more exclusive society. It is a union of the people call into, into conformity with Jesus Christ. Exactly. And because we're not in conforming to Jesus Christ through obedience, that's why the world looks at us as a bunch of purveyors of falsity and not worthy of being emulated. Yeah, I think there are many ways in which, you know, I've done a lot of reflection on 1 Timothy, 6-1, where Paul was giving instructions to the bond servants, and he says bond servants should give their masters all honor so that God and the teaching should not be reviled. And I think about that. I think about the sort of logic that Paul uses there to say the primary point is let's not allow the gospel to be reviled and how that might change our behavior. Even through our action actions in political pursuits, servants and doves friends, when we get back, we're going to find out who these servants and doves are. I hope you'll stay tuned. We'll be right back. This is beautiful. There is so much more about Chuck Chris Meyer and Save America Ministries on our website, SaveUs.org. For example, on the front page are two great videos, first, an interview and discussion of Chuck's book, Out of Egypt, also a great TV interview with Chuck regarding his book, Seduction of the Saints. Much more videos, a four-pastors only section, and also you can view Chuck's weekly teachings. All at his website, saveus.org. That's saveus.org. Also on Chuck's website, listen to Chuck's viewpoint broadcast. Listen to the archives. Maybe you missed a program. Check it out at saveus.org. Also, there are some great resources, hospitality information, also information about marriage, divorce and remarriage, newsletters, articles, prophecy, prayer and revival information, all at saveus.org. [music] Well, my friends, if Christians and particularly evangelical Christians were interested really in transforming the culture, we would not have, for the past 20 years, a divorce rate in the Bible belt of America that exceeded the nations a whole by 50%. Would we? No, we wouldn't. So, we're only interested in transforming the culture to the extent that we are willing to obey God ourselves, which is not very far. We want the blessings of the gospel, but not the burden that goes with it. Yes, God's Jesus said, "My burden is light," but He didn't say there wasn't one. And we're supposed to follow Him as He obeyed the Father. And that's why Jesus had to learn the fear of the Lord very quickly. Did you know that the Bible says that Jesus had to learn the fear of the Lord quickly? Yes, He did. And what we've done is abandoned the fear of the Lord in our country. And so what we're trying to do is replace that with what we're calling conservative Judeo-Christian principles. Is that going to save America? It might make it a little bit better, but it's not going to save America because the heart of the problem is the heart. It's not just what people do, it's who they are, what we are. And that's what our friend here, Dr. James Spencer, was trying to deal with as we talk concerning the matter of Christian involvement in politics. We should be involved, but not as a kind of fetish, not thinking we're going to redeem the world somehow because there's only one Redeemer. Do I have that right, James? You do. I think one of the most helpful treatments I've seen of this is Oliver O'Donovan, the theologian. And what he talks about is the secondary theatre of God's wood. And what he's referring to there is the role of the government in acting justice. And so as Christians, we need to be concerned about justice. And I think that's why political participation is an appropriate way for us to express our love for neighbor. Well, we have, we have certain elements of the church, though, called the mainline church that seems to be concerned about certain elements of what they call justice, but they're not concerned about truth. They're just concerned about feelings. And then we have the more conservative evangelicals that are more concerned about truth and not concerned so much about the justice aspect. So we've got a real problem. And the church is not together. The church is not united in Christ, either evangelical or mainline. We're just not squared off with Christ. And that means that somewhere in the midst of this, we've got to humble ourselves and realize, look, we cannot save America by politics. We can do our best to express the life of Christ, the word of Christ, into the culture and trust him to touch the lives of people. But we cannot control the culture because that means we are becoming the saviors. That's right. And I think the way I've phrased this in the past is oftentimes I think what we do when we participate in the government, we try to make the world less lost. And that just isn't something that's ever going to, you know, being less lost is like getting, you know, five meters closer to jumping across the Grand Canyon. It's still going to hurt when you land. And so I think there's a sense in which when we participate in government, we just need to understand the limitation of what government does, and that is to restrain evil. And so there's an appropriate place for us to participate, but I agree with you 100%. We have to do that from a standpoint of discipleship. I usually talk about it in terms of the disciples posture. In other words, we're approaching the world with a disciple, disciple posture, where we look and see here and think in a way that is more commensurate with Christ. And when we don't do that, we run into this problem that you're identifying with the main lines focusing more on justice and truth and the conservatives focusing more on truth and justice. Right. And so we have to recognize that as we're formed and shaped into the image of Jesus Christ, we're going to have a better viewpoint on the world than we ever had before. And that that viewpoint needs to inform our activity, our activities in the political realm. In other words, need to emerge from and be deeply connected to our worship of the trying of God. No question. You know what you've been saying and what we both been saying here brings back my thinking experience talking with a number of very serious Jewish friends, Orthodox Jewish friends. Even the premier English voice of Israel via the media who has been on this program many times to Marjona. And their view, the Judeo view is this. Jews are called to be the moral models for the world. And they are called to present morality, God's morality to the world. They don't have a concept of salvation as Christians think of it. It's about moralizing the world. They're looking for a Messiah who is not a divine Messiah. They're looking for another Moses who can give another further jab at the moral law, the reinforcement of the Torah. But they have no concept about a Messiah, a divine Messiah, and reject the whole idea. In a sense, when we say continually as Christians, well, what we're trying to do is protect a Judeo-Christian country, or based on Judeo-Christian principles. In effect, what we're really saying in some respects is we don't really trust the salvation of Christ too much to change the heart. We just want to moralize. Yeah, I think my concern with when we talk about, hey, let's go back to Judeo-Christian ethic. Let's lean into the Ten Commandments. My real concern is that what we're doing is we're deciding that we're comfortable with the world being broken in very particular ways. In other words, we want to make sure that certain sins are bracketed out, but we're okay with others. Okay, so we're okay if Christians are divorcing their spouses and remarrying in serial adultery from Jesus viewpoint, but if it comes to homosexuality or transgenderism, that's just beyond the pale. That's right. I think there's a sense in which that's absolutely true. And the way, again, the way I usually talk about this is we settle for wholesomeness when only holiness will do. Oh, wait a minute. You've got to repeat that because that's the phrase of the hour. Say it again. We settle for wholesomeness when only holiness will do. We set it for wholesomeness when only holiness will do. Oh, my goodness. That is a profound statement. James do not forget it. It must echo out across our country and throughout the church in America. We settle for wholesomeness when only holiness will do. All right. We've got to get this book out here, friends. We really do. $13 will put serpents and doves in your hands. You may not like the servants, but you might like the doves. But we're going to get into that in a few minutes here. So get a copy of the book. It's going to help the discussion so much. We've got to get this right in our minds and our hearts. Okay. We want to be pure. We want to be holy. We want to do what is right. We want to do what is pleasing to God. I know that's what you want to do. That's why you listen to this program. Get a copy of the book. It's on our website. Save us.org. Save us.org. Call us 1-800-SAVE USA or write to us at Save America Ministries PO Box 7 0 8 7 9 Richmond, Virginia 2 3 2 5 5 ready to check at $5 for postage and handling. Okay. Now, the Bible says Jesus said we should be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. Wise as serpents or innocent as doves. Now, I don't know about you, James. I don't like serpents. Neither my wife and I, we do not like those slithering serpents. Apparently, apparently, the appearance of the serpent in the Garden of Eden was not like the slithering servants that we see today because it was discussed as the wisest of all the beings, right? Mm hmm. Yep. Yep. The craftiest being that was on the earth. And so I think when Jesus is referring to this, he's not necessarily thinking in terms of the beauty of snakes. But snakes had a way of navigating the world being a relatively hated animal. And I'm with you. I'm not a wild one. They either. But they had a way of navigating the world where they could survive. And I think that's what Jesus is just going to be, the disciples to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. He's saying this after he sends them out as sheep amongst wolves. He sent them out with very little provision, tells them to go out and share the gospel with the lost sheep of Israel, encourages them not to stay in places that reject the gospel, but to lean in and really depend on those who accept the message that they're bringing. Right. And I think what Jesus is trying to teach them is learn who you can depend on. Make sure you understand that there is evil out there in the world. And that if you depend on the people who are rejecting you, you're going to be sorry. Okay. We're going to do it on that. We're going to do it on that, brother, because what you did not know is that my 11th book just went to type set. And it is called when persecution comes, preparing hearts for perilous times. You think we're there? I think we're getting there. I mean, I think here's what I would say. I think we're always there. I think that when Jesus says, when Jesus does the disciples to be aware of men, because they're going to turn you over to the court, they're going to bring you before the Gentiles. I think that's what he's saying. I think he's saying that the world as trustworthy as it may seem at times is not dependable for Christians. It's always going to betray. In other words, that's the first kingdom of God in his righteousness. Yeah. Okay. Now you say this, shrewdness can result in Christians adopting a sort of ruthless brutality that looks less like God's kingdom and more like the world. Similarly, the innocence of doves alone could make one naive to the world's deceptive ways. Being wise and innocent is intended to allow the sheep to survive the wolves and keep the sheep from acting as if they are wolves. Well stated, we'll build on that when we get back from this great friends. Our special guest, Dr. James Spencer, his book, Surpents and Doves, our role as Christians and colonists. We need to bear witness. We need to get out there, but trust God. Have you ever considered what the early church was like? Many people are developing a heart longing for a greater fulfillment in our practices as Christians. A recent study showed 53,000 people a week are leaving the back door of America's churches in frustration. What is going on? Why has there not been even a 1% gain among followers of Christ in the last 25 years? Could it be that God is seeking to restore 1st century Christianity for the 21st century? Jesus said, I'll build my church. Is Christ by His Spirit stirring to prepare the church for the 21st century? The early church prayed together and broke bread from house to house. They were family and it was said by all who observed, behold, how they loved one another. Incredible, but the same can be found right now. Go to saveus.org and click sell church. We can revive 1st century Christianity for the 21st century. It's about people, not programs. It's about a body, not a building. That's saveus.org. Click sell church. Why is a serpent's harmless as doves? Yes, we want to be wise. We want to be able to negotiate in Babylon, shall we say. We're living in a Babylonian type of culture where aliens, just as Abraham was, he was a sojourner and an alien, and yet he was God's covenant man. We also, as followers of Christ, are sojourners and aliens, even in America, even in America, as wonderful as our foundation and inheritance was. But I'll tell you, James, one of the things that concerns me is that for the past 30 years, we have increasingly exalted in a godly heritage without correspondingly deciding to repent to and obey the God of that heritage. Therefore, the heritage itself becomes an idol, doesn't it? I think I usually deal with this in terms of civil religion. One of the movies that I sort of reference to illustrate this is the Blues Brothers. If anybody out there has ever watched the Blues Brothers, these two men go on as this mission to try to save an orphanage, and they continue to say, "We are on a mission for God. We are on a mission for God. We and God have an understanding." And they're claiming that they're on this mission from God when it's evidence that they're not. So they bought into this idea that, "No, God has sent us on this mission," and they sort of allow that idea to form and shape their actions, but it's not true. And I think very much when we think about what we've done in America and the sort of civil religion that we bought into, we have generally gestured toward that heritage and said, "Well, we obviously were formed as a Christian nation. We continue being a Christian nation, and we've allowed that to sort of dominate our vision and push God to the background, and that comes to the foreground." There you go. The heritage itself becomes the focus, and rather than the God of that heritage. And if you were to go back, you indicated that you were not aware of John Winthrop's model of Christian charity, but if you were to read it, you would be so profoundly inspired. Really. It will inform you even the more so with regard to your book and so on. But he said this. He didn't use the term covenant. He used the current commission. He said, "We're under a commission from God." Now, whether you want to call that another word for covenant, I'm not going to argue it because there are many believe that America is a covenant-type nation, much like Israel. It's like a Gentile Israel, so to speak. But he said, "We're under this commission from God to do what Israel and even the church in Europe, so-called Christian Europe, never did. We are going to do what others have not done. We are going to be the church. We're going to be the people of God." But he said this, "If we fail in this commission and take the blessings that God gives us as a result of our willingness to establish this foundation in Him, and we use it for our own carnal pursuits, we will ultimately become a curse and a byword among the nations." And isn't that exactly what God said would happen to Israel if they didn't follow Him? Yeah, it's an interesting thought process, and I will pick up John Winthrop and take a look at his work. I think as we look at that commission and we think about being the church, I think it's absolutely true that all Christians in all ways should be focused on being and making disciples. That is our most basic commission, as I understand it. Well, it is, and it's something that you can do. It's something that I can do. Everybody wants to know, "Well, what can I do? What can I do?" Well, it's kind of like what Edmund Burke said. He said, "I can't do everything, but I can do something. What I can do, I should do, and by the grace of God, I will do." Well, what's the basic thing that God calls us to do? Make disciples, not birth Christians, but make disciples, teaching them to observe, obey everything that God has commanded from the heart, right? Yeah, that's right. And I think where I have some level of discomfort is just making sure that we don't collapse that distinction between a Christian society where not all believers... Do we see this with Israel? Israel had Israelites who were faithful and Israelites who were unfaithful. And the Bible actually makes distinctions between those who are within the covenant who are being faithful and those who are not being faithful. True. And so we see this in Romans 9 and various other places. And so we have to be realistic and recognize that we are members of the body of Christ because God called us into the body of Christ. So the real issue is that God is calling us, as the Apostle Paul said, to be the Israel of God. In other words, not historic Israel and not something that is so different that cannot be connected to Israel, but were grafted into God's original intent. And the word that you were about to use, I think, and didn't use is another "r" word. Now, the first "r" word that we despise is repent. Now, a few years ago, in fact, 30 years ago, I was sitting with one of America's premier prayer leaders at a massive event concerning the church in America. And what we need to do. And during a private moment, I took this person aside and I said, "How is it that we have all these prayer movements and we have all these themes from 2 Chronicles 7, 14, you know, heal our land, seek his face, pray, and all this. How is it we've never had a theme, repent or turn from our wicked ways? Would you like to know what the answer was? Three words. It's too negative. The very thing that Jesus said is the only thing that will save us is the one thing that was too negative. Yeah. Repent. Okay. That brings up another word, though. And that's the word you were about to use. Remnant. Yeah. Oh, that's a despised word. It seems to mitigate against the idea that everybody's coming in. If you just named the name of Christ, everything's wonderful, everything's cool and you're on the way to the Pearly Gates, no matter what you do. Yeah, I think unfortunately, you know, there's some confusion about this because Christ's proclamation of the message of salvation was not limited. He was willing to put that out there worldwide. Yep. But oftentimes what we think is that because the proclamation of the message was worldwide that everybody appears that it's automatically in. But I think that there's a sense in which we need to recognize and really emphasize that no responding to Christ is not done on our turn. It's done on his. And oftentimes when we're talking about things like repentance and remnant, what we really want is change or progress, which we can determine and we can control. We can decide what progress looks like. We can decide what change looks like, but right implies a standard that we haven't said. It implies that there is something there that we need to respond to and draw back to that we haven't established, which is the kingdom of God. That's right. And so I think that ultimately what we are seeing often is that we want to operate on our own terms. And that is something that we have done since the garden. What we want to do. You don't have to own destiny. Yeah, so there's this sense in which we have to make sure that we understand. Every time we come to Christ and we come to Christ and when we are becoming Christ disciples, that happens on Christ term. It does not happen on our own. Really? Not at all. So in others, we can't pick a choose at the divine buffet table. That which produces our sensibilities. That's right. We have to conform to the image of Christ, even just that language of conformity means that we shape our lives such that we resemble Christ and that there is, you know, nothing of us left. All right. How about Christians in politics and compromise then? I think that's a really great question. Well, thank you. Here's, yeah, here's where I kind of, here's where I kind of fit back with it. I think that every time we participate in politics, there's a level of compromise we're going to get into. Are you married? I am. Well, then you have a level of political compromise. That's right. And I think you're living in a civil body politic in your home. And Paul speaks to it, right? And so I think that every time we participate in politics, every time we vote, every time we do anything, we're compromising our convictions to some degree, at least we're prioritizing those convictions. And what I would urge Christians to do as we participate in politics and try to make political decisions is to recognize that our role is, again, not to craft a great legislation, but to speak prophetically and theologically to a world that needs to understand the gospel of Jesus Christ. Oh, speak prophetically. Now we're starting to talk in different terms, speaking prophetically instead of politically. That's right. That's a novel idea. That's right. I think, you know, if you look at what happened with Jonah and the Ninevites, and we can sort of set aside all of the sort of obstinants that Jonah had there in getting to the message. But what the Ninevites respond to is not a conservative ideal. They respond to a message from God. They respond to the Lord almighty and they repent. They're not reforming their behavior so that they are more moral. They're actually responding to Jonah's message about God to them. Which had to do with the heart. There's a fundamental difference. Which had to do with the heart. That's exactly. So the heart of the matter is always the heart. And we always want to start with behavior rather than the heart. It's the heart that God is after. And that's what the gospel is to deal with. And that's why Jesus said, you know, putting everything else aside, let's seek first the kingdom of God, his rulership in my life, starting with my life, not their life, my life. And then live righteously. It's interesting. Everybody wants to talk about the kingdom of God, but they don't want to talk about the righteousness. Isn't that interesting? I think there's something to this because what I think the church, one of the functions of the church is to be the body of Christ together in discipleship. We're supposed to robot an alternative to the world. We're supposed to look so radically different that people are either compelled in an interested fashion. We can live so differently. Why are they strange in all the right ways? Or they're supposed to be repelled. Well, that being strange in all the right ways and being repelled means a word called persecution. And what's happening now, as we see the massive antisemitism sweeping the Western world, it's the prelude to massive persecution that is coming on its heels, I think. Well, I think that persecution is always going to come about the way I think about persecution is we don't have to just, you know, confront the world in sort of a head on fashion. All we need to do is live faithfully and we are going to experience persecution. Exactly. The friction of living counter to the culture that we're in is ultimately going to create sufficient friction that we are going to feel the pain of it. Well, Jesus said if they persecuted me, they're going to persecute you. Why do you think you should be different than your Lord? That's absolutely right. And so I think that my big concern for the church and part of the reason that I decided to tackle this issue of church and politics is that I want the church to be prepared to understand how to live under a and live within a setting where we are experiencing increased friction, where we are going to experience increased persecution, and I am concerned that we are not there. All right. So what you have just expressed in clear words is your book is a corollary to my new book when persecution comes. How to prepare our hearts for perilous times. Brother, I'll tell you one thing. I'm so delighted that you and I have chatted. Have we met before here in the program? Now that I recall. Yeah, I don't recall. But I've been delighted with our conversation here. I know we've talked over one another here, but that's okay. We're just in the America's living room here having a nice conversation together. And friends, I want you to get a copy of this book, serpents it does because it'll help us in this particular unique moment of history right here in our country. $13 will put it in your hands. It's on our website, save us.org. Give us a call 1-800-SAVE USA, or write to us at SAVE America Ministries. The old box 70879 Richmond, Virginia, 23255. Add $5 for postage in handy. Become a partner, friends. The other guy's not doing it. Now's the time to shoulder the burden with us. God bless and be a blessing. You've been listening to Viewpoint with Chuck Chrismeyer. Viewpoint is supported by the faithful gifts of our listeners. Let me urge you to become a partner with Chuck as a voice to the church declaring vision for the nation. Join us again next time on Viewpoint as we confront the issues of America's heart and home. ♪ ♪