Non-rockabotas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it Are you gonna bark all day a little doggy, or are you gonna fight? Okay in your worldview I'm an animal you don't chastise chickens for being delusional You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly. Okay. It doesn't really hurt Hahaha Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men lauding them for their courage Going to all the world and make disciples not going to the world make buddies not to make brosives, right? Don't go in the world make homies right disciples. I got I got a bit of a jiggle neck That's a joke pasta when we have the real message of truth we cannot let somebody say their speaking truth when they're not I Truly truly I say to you Whoever believes has eternal life. I'm the bread of life Your father's eighth a man in the wilderness and they died This is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat of it and not die I'm the living bread that came down from heaven if anyone eats of this bread He will live forever and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh as John 6 everybody Welcome back everybody to another episode of apology a radio. This is the gospel heard around the world You can get more at apology of studios.com that is a P O L O G I a studios.com go there Get all the past episodes of apology a radio Get the episodes of provoked cultish she a lotions all that's there for your listening pleasure at apology a studios.com Don't forget also if you sign up for all access You are a partner with us in this ministry as We bring the gospel into conflict with the culture into conflict with false religion and the cults And so you're part of this ministry with us And so whatever you see coming from apology of studios is because of ministry partners just like you And so hey Important show today just want to encourage everybody To share this episode lots of stuff going on also announcing to everybody that next week next Thursday I didn't even tell you guys it was finally able to book it next Thursday. We're gonna have a live debate brotherly discussion with a brother Samuel say He is gonna be on with me. We're gonna have a sit down together and talk about The issue of abolition abolitionism and Sam was a great brother and the Lord. He loves the Lord We love him and so he's all set to come next week to sit down with me He'll be via video But we're gonna have a conversation and just engage the issue as brothers the issue of abolitionism and what is the proper approach To this issue. So that's Luke the bear What do I'm Jeff the comma the ninja and that is Zachary Conover. What's up guys direct your communications for EAN and abortion now hey welcome and Let's get started So if you've been paying attention to us our feed or Little last shows or even the news national media You know that all eyes have been on the state of Arizona the last couple of weeks And that's that's true because If I'll update everybody if you didn't know the Arizona Supreme Court upheld Let's just simply point it to us. That's about a law. You never repealed that up held 1864 Law that criminalized abortion for the abortionist and There was another law if you didn't know that was right next to it and that was the law criminalizing the mother And the pro-life Establishment via Cathy Herod in the Center for Arizona policy already repealed that law and decriminalized it for the mother But anyways all eyes in Arizona because Arizona had this standing law on the books that criminalize it for the doctor now To start this discussion we should announce that and we did this last week We had nothing to do with that bill. We weren't even alive yet or a glimmer in our Pappy's eyes. Did you say that cuz they sure you're wearing it did Pappy's And so it's an old law and essentially the law made abortion a crime for the abortionist now We have a lot to say about the law If it had been us We would have made sure that it was a law that was consistent that afforded equal protection under the law for every image Bearer of God in the womb and we would have wanted of course Just penalties for the taking of human life in the womb. However, the big dispute over the last couple of weeks is over this law that's standing in Arizona and the Arizona House Worked super super hard to try to repeal that law to decriminalize abortion And that was done via pro-life legislators and politicians and Republicans Shockingly now there were of course people who opposed you know decriminalizing abortion in the state of Arizona But the the winning votes that ultimately pushed it through to repeal that law on the books were from pro-life legislators And so it moved to the Senate yesterday. It was in the Arizona Senate same story the same story and found ways after legislative session to do all of this and So the big dispute yesterday was are we going to do criminalize abortion take that law off the books in the Senate and of course The way things are in the world today. They were able to do it They were able to pull it off once again because the winning votes were by pro-life Republican legislators. It's amazing when pro-life Republican legislators want to get something going they will They'll work at it right then they can happen and so it's gonna go to gonna go to governor Katie Hobbs desk And I wonder if she'll approve that now Katie Hobbs Absolute just gonna rebel on this moment grotesque leftist in this state So all that to say that happened yesterday now it we it should be obvious to everybody who knows us knows our theology knows our methodology in our approach that We have been approaching this over the last couple of weeks with the legislators specifically Calling them not only and in and in the media We've done a lot of news interviews as well and in the media calling for actual equal protection We have we do not support this legislation in terms of that's just legislation. That's good That's what we would have done as well But we do not believe that it would be right to say let's go ahead and decriminalize it So somewhere down the road we can get to equal protection What we're saying right now is in the midst of it equal protection abolition But we think it'd be unwise to say go ahead and decriminalize it so you can kill them all Because the law is already on the books and makes it a crime We're saying we need to update that law and we've been advocating for that talking to the legislators about that and that's what we've been working on However, it's complex right now, right? It's it's it's you know, you can't dispute the fact there's a complex issue because It's unique to have a law that's a standing law that's so far back that says that it's a crime for the abortionist And so what does an abolitionist do in a case like this? Do you say well that is actually partiality and it's not completely just so let's go ahead and Decriminalize it right now and then make our way someday down to abolition We're of a different opinion of that we think that you should you should actually be prophetic in this moment and advocate for the abolition and equal protection But you should also use this moment to expose the legislators like Bolic and others who aren't really consistent and don't really stand for the lives of the preborn They want it decriminalized and they don't want to decriminalize because they want a better more just bill Or a piece of legislation they want to decriminalize because they could care less about these kids That's because they don't want to lose the election. That's true. Yeah, and so it's complex Issue and so we wanted to just address that at the front button before we do I want to play a clip for you Patrick will be able to get this so proud so so proud of the youth and the members of Apology at church who showed up. I want to say thank you. Thank you. Thank you to the body of believers in Apology at church for all of your work the last couple of weeks in Standing up for the truth using the word of God showing up and many of the members of Apology at church Took off work yesterday. Yeah, there's more of us here than previous two weeks. Yeah, yeah So I'm gonna just say praise the Lord praise the Lord for Apology at church such godly amazing believers among us it is it is such a humbling experience to be a pastor of of a church of just such passionate and zealous and Godly people and people who sacrifice so much and so we want to say thank you to Apology at church for Showing up last couple of weeks for going out and flying to expose the inconsistencies of these politicians going to their neighborhoods and flying their their door and their neighbors doors to expose what they're up to and what they really believe and so members of Apology at church went and wanted to be there as as and I had to have an opportunity to preach the gospel and to bring the word of God into this issue and And so here was a moment Pastor Luke was able to capture that is a shocking admission for some All right for some now. This is thread bear for us now. We've heard this a thousand times But this is this is the truth so when the establishment talks about victims and they don't know what they're doing and they're just oblivious and Not guilty and victims themselves all the rest. Well, this is we always squint at that because we're like I don't think you really do a lot of engagement with these people. So here's what they really believe The baby and you would hope that that mother is convicted of crime Smart enough to know that the baby's gonna get killed or hit, right? I mean at the end of the day, right? So I though but you're talking hypothetical us what as far as what like I had nine kids And I've chosen up to have an abortion That's what I'm still here Right having to have a choice for my children to have a choice and if they want an abortion So you're saying I will back them up to their choice murder your franchise. Yes ma'am Okay, well as long as you understand that that's the choice that you're giving them it's not An informed decision to understand them that that's from our convictions with their beliefs right now Yeah, I've taught them all right. Do you understand? But that's why we're saying listen He believed that a child is made of gods and it's from the moment of the reception That's the only logical place to start it and the Bible teaches us that and everything and so we believe that it's a baby He has its own geneticist own DNA from the moment of inception And so doctor will tell me that something is happening with my daughter. I'm sorry Well, that's what I'm saying. Yes, that's not an abortion I understand that so that's why I'm here. So you're okay, you're no worries. Yeah, and like I said Well, there you go So yep, it's murder. I know it yep Don't have a problem with it. That's the key to that's that's what you really have to engage with right and so We say we say there's a lot We have a lot of criticisms for the establishment because they're not Christian. They don't say in the word of God They're not about the gospel. They don't call the repentance they won't make it murder in all cases in terms of equal protection and And this is what you actually have to engage with that's the position and the only way to get somebody to stop loving death is to have them stop hating God Texas that those who hate me love death and so she loves death because she hates God and so how do you how do you transform that? You know try to show our pictures of of ultrasounds of beautiful little cute babies and ultrasounds She's already telling you. No, I think you ought to be able to murder it if you want to and so that's not gonna Help or let her hear a heartbeat. She's nose. Yeah heart is beating I think you should kill it. I don't even care. It's my grandkid. You can kill that too I think we have the choice and the right to do such a thing and so that's really what you have to engage with so as a church Yeah, that's how we have to approach it approach it with the gospel approach it with a call to repentance approach it by Seizing on the image of God in them and pointing them to their Creator and making sure they understand that that's really where they're at Yeah, it's a suicidal ideology. Yeah, you're talking about wanting to destroy your own children or making sure that Your children are able to destroy their children, which is your discontinuance as a family line Your posterity ceases to exist. It's it's quite literally suicidal Yeah, I was just gonna say that I mean I feel like we just keep beating this drum over and over again But like we have to because people aren't getting it. They're not listening and it's super frustrating when we're seeing all these pro-life industry leaders and politicians and legislators and you know Go down the list saying oh no the women are all victims You know we shouldn't punish them and then we're talking to people like this more times than not Yeah, and so that's why we're like hey if you're gonna say that then you should come out to the abortion bill Those are you should be you know you should be at these? Events like this and you talk to these people yourselves and see if you're gonna get the same same thing that you've been saying at this point It's like a brilliant man once said how many times can a man turn his head and pretend he doesn't see yes Oh, I love that. I love that. There's certainly overwhelming evidence for the fact that it's not a knowledge problem It's a sin-loving God-hating problem. Yeah. Amen. That's from bonsons talk on the automated that conference when more craft introduced him Yeah, whoo that was so so powerful. Yeah, that last two minutes was get you fired up fire That's the one after he had just got fired right. I don't know if it was after he recently I don't know if it was recently, but yeah for sure he was fired by then. Yeah, I know to him Yeah, he's so passionate he was that was like his most fire message. It was fired fired up. Yeah All right, so all right back just so just quickly we're gonna go into a clip from a little bit of engagement I had actually at the Capitol. I was surprised by this. I wasn't planning on being there to do this I wanted to be there to try to engage legislators and others and advocate for abolition and equal protection And then I ended up because there's a lot of Roman Catholics there in the conversation with a couple of Roman Catholics At the Capitol and so we're gonna play a little clip of it I think we think would be helpful to the church to be able to engage on this issue to make sure we share the gospel of God's grace and peace With our Roman Catholic friends and family But as ways before he gets that, you know, it'd be good for us to address a little bit more this complicated Situation we have in Arizona where you have the law on the books that criminalizes it for the abortionist The law itself is not something that we would have put in. It's not something that we think is Is is just in terms of penalty and all the rest But what does an abolitionist do when it is technically a crime in your state right now already? For the abortionist to do a clinical or, you know medical abortion What does an abolitionist do does an abolitionist say well, let's go ahead and and repeal that law that criminalizes it for the abortionist And so we can, you know, make our way someday to equal protection or do you just use it as an opportunity to say we need to update that law make it just make it consistent, which is what we've been saying and Or do we do we say, you know, we want to use this as an opportunity to testify? Do we also challenge legislators when they say no, let's go ahead and decriminalize it and open it up Do we challenge them and say you're wicked in your evil? You shouldn't be trying to decriminalize abortion. So that's the point it's a complex situation right now for the abolitionists because the law is there it makes it a crime for the abortionist and It makes it it makes it challenging in terms of thinking through this because we never want to compromise We don't want to do anything in terms of bills of partiality We're working for equal protection and abolition, but it's a unique thing That Arizona is facing where it's a crime right now. And so is the right approach to say let's go ahead and decriminalize it because it's not completely Consistent and then let's open it up now. Let's open more babies up right now. It's like let's open the floodgates and let them all die Right now. And so it's unique and I think every abolitionist in the country right now who's on the same page as us It has to grant. Let's slow down for a second. This is a unique situation. It's it's a it's a challenging one Because we would of course want to update the law. That's the goal. It wasn't our law We had nothing to do with it, but do you say as an abolitionist now go ahead and decriminalize it open the floodgates someday We'll get to equal protection. I think that's inconsistent with our position and our position about the preservation of human life And so just several knows in terms of our methodology in this what we've been saying We've used this as an opportunity to advocate for equal protection the whole way through Well, we're preaching at the Capitol the last couple of weeks equal protection. Yeah, well, we're saying abolition Well, we're challenging the inconsistency of this legislation and the law itself and what were we saying to the legislators? You need to be doing equal protection right now. You need to be You need we need to be doing abolition right now in state of Arizona That's an important point because no abolitionist wants to lull the culture or the legislature into a false sense of security and apathy regarding the evil of abortion like no No one is on that side of wanting to do that and say This is sufficient So we're gonna support this or even that the issue that was going on here in Arizona is a vote for this is supporting this I think that's fundamentally misunderstanding the issue, but none of us want to Lull the public or lull the legislature into taking their foot off the gas with this Which is why as Jeff said the whole time we have been saying the same thing in terms of our message Holding up the standard of truth and saying this is what God requires of you Whatever's on the books right now or not on the books This is what God's word says and this is what you must do This is your duty is to fulfill your obligation as a magistrate to protect innocent life all of it and make sure that justice is established for the fatherless and We have done that consistently in terms of a witness now for years But in this particular moment that we find ourselves in in our state We're not letting up the pressure one ounce If anything it needs to go through the ceiling in terms of the compromise and the treachery From our Senate. Yeah from Republicans in the house as well They the the public needs to continually be made aware of this Yeah, and just to give just a Historical kind of background context of this conversation for those that may not know You know, Arizona had a law 1864 they keep calling the territorial ban because Arizona wasn't a state yet As if that makes a difference whether it was an ancient law So old just like that's women back to the slavery law that's so old Back at the time of slavery. Yes, so anyways, you know, so it Obviously, it's not a perfect law. It's far from perfect it is one of It was one of the strictest in the nation The only exception was for the life of the mother so it didn't even have an exception for Raper incest which is most any of pro-life states don't really even have that so again Not a perfect law again. The the penalty was two to five years jail time Yeah, yeah wash and the mother's exempt, right? But that's that was like It was one of the better laws in the in the US. Okay, again far from perfect and not our law saving a lot of lives, okay and then the Prolay and then I think it was in the 70s right then they came in actually strengthened it then because this this law said only for those The abortion is essentially then they strengthen it added also for the mother But thanks to Kathy Herod and the pro-life industry a couple years ago. They then took out the criminalization of it for the mother You know, which is a whole nother issue again fighting against that We've put in every year try to put our own bills again this year We had our own equal protection bill in the house and the Senate which we had guys tried to put through and we're getting blocked And weren't allowed to run their bills. They tried by pro lifers by pro lifers. Okay So that's that's where we're at. So then in this situation now you have what has essentially happened was It was passed in the house first now in the Senate They are repealing that law and allowing abortions up to 15 weeks, which 94 I think it said 94% of abortions have before prior 15 weeks, right? So So that's what's happening and the argument that we were seeing was that the pro-life legislators should Try to insert an abolition bill or don't vote That was the argument. We were seeing them. We're going oh wait a minute. So no vote then just says open the floodgates up and It's clearly gonna pass at that point. They're not it's like not even trying to stop that and and going back to Proverbs That would be the opposite of rescuing those Like if you have an opportunity to say no, we're not we're not allowing this You should do that before God otherwise you're saying, you know what? Then I think it becomes strategy then it becomes pregnant because you're saying we're gonna we're gonna pass us off to later Go ahead do your thing murder babies up to 15 weeks kill them all kill them all until we can put our bill in so the point is I think the point is is it's a complex situation very well. It's not our law. Yeah, we're not in agreement with the pinnology and all the rest But the point is is how does a Christian approach this in terms of the complicated nature of it that it's already on the books? Not our law. We would want equal protection. We were advocating for all of that We put our bills in house and Senate there were abolition bells equal protection. That's what we've been advocating for weeks But isn't the prison the preservation of human life? Premier in a moment like this where you have to okay complicated It's already there. I had nothing to do with it. I wouldn't have put that in yeah But right now the preservation of human life would say if we let them decriminalize it It opens the floodgates to kill more people and if the reasoning we have is Well, let's go ahead and repeal it so that we can get down the road to equal protection Well, I'm saying well isn't the preservation of human life right now premiere if it's already being said by the state It is a crime. Don't do it Don't we want to preserve human life and say yeah, like it it should be a crime And we need to fix all of that but don't don't open the floodgates right now to just the wholesale kill them all So again, it's a complicated issue and here's the key issue. We need to hear abolitionists like us talking about this It's not our bill. It's not our legislation It's got nothing to do with us or what we've done We've been advocating in the midst of this whole controversy for equal protection and abolition and no compromise and using it as a springboard to do that, but we're also using it to testify against the Compromizers and the inconsistent and these pro-life establishment types to call out their hypocrisy and they're just really advocating for the destruction of the pre-born as pro-lifers Yeah, all the while trying to take your money to be the pro-life Senator or Representative, so there you go. There's their situation and here's here's a deal ready. It doesn't matter now anymore Because it's passed to repeal in the House and the Senate It's officially been decriminalized and does it change our strategy in any way? Not one bit We advocated before during and we'll do it after for consistency For no compromise. We've advocated for equal protection abolition. Nothing's changing with us bills of partiality are an abomination in God's eyes and that is our position and that's what we're going to continue to fight against And so there's a ton of work still left to be done at this point even from the prophetic standpoint the political side of things Like it's not just submitting bills. Yeah at this point. We're holding politicians accountable It's speaking prophetically to the legislature to the county commissioner to the DA like everyone that won't do justice Needs to hear from the word of the living God. Amen. Yeah, and you know right now Apology a church. You can help us right now. Please do if you go to end abortion now calm You can not only sign your church up so we can train you and equip you to save lives at the abortion mill And by the way, it's gonna be the bloodiest and most brutal part of those holocausts as I've been saying Very very soon in in states across the union But you can pray for us of course and please give financially to end abortion now calm because we have a lot a lot a lot of fight ahead of us this year multiple states and in particular state of Arizona because right now Arizona is one of the states with a ballot measure and Lo and behold it is a humbling and in in many ways Frightening a place to be as a church The Lord is using us right now in this issue of the ballot measure in our state To try to make sure it doesn't happen And so please be in prayer for us and please help us financially to do that because the ballot look here's the deal The ballot measures are gonna legalize abortion via state constitution from conception all the way to nine months But that's where it's gonna be able to be done. That's what the culture wants That's exactly what they want and so we are as I've been saying not at the end of this fight We are right in the raging part of the battle and it's looking it's not looking good And so we have a lot of work to do a lot of prophetic ministry to accomplish and So we need you to stand with us, okay? Onward onward. Okay, so while while we were okay, so let this okay. Let's change pace now Okay, thank you all for staying with us through all that pivot horrible discussion I can't wait for the day. We're got us now This is justice and we never talk about this again except to praise God for justice So last week I went to we went to the Capitol and last week while I was there I saw them bringing in a table and this big heavy Statue of Mary not very big but big heavy statue And so last week they set it up and you know put it there and you know No one's really having anything to do with it much except people are standing around it and kind of staring at it but yesterday they brought the same statue in and the table and they put this idol up on the table and Then you were standing next to me when I started praying, weren't you? Yes Then I heard it start next thing you know, we hear them like, you know I'm like, oh wait, what's going on? And there's a lot of people surrounding this idol and they're all you know praying to this statue of Mary And it was inescapably prayer and worship like you're singing in two ways around. What was transpiring. Yeah Yeah, they were all positioned facing it like you said the center of gravity was the idol Yeah, what what has the weight in that moment are all turned and facing it? They're all you know praying that prayer to Mary and with the statue of Mary in front of them. So I Film some of it. I just wanted to have a record of it when Roman Catholics say no, we don't pray to Mary We're not worshiping statues Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh So There's the context so after that I walk back over to the team and we are just talking to each other about Yeah, that's not worship We don't pray to Mary. We're not we're not doing that just thinking man how sad to have there is one God in one mediator between God and man the man Christ Jesus and to cut yourselves off from this perfect mediation of the Savior and Who can make us right before a holy God and then go through a creature Yeah, and then to be praying to this statue this I was just thinking we're relying on a creature to carry our prayers to the throne room Right itself. Yeah, and we were talking and and we were just you know We were just talking amongst ourselves saying you know God has something specific to say about this in the book of Isaiah Like he mocks people that build idols out of the out of the things that he's actually created And they put it up on the stand and there it sits. Yeah, it doesn't move It can't talk doesn't talk tell the future. Right. Yeah, it doesn't control the future controls. Nothing can't see talk here Nothing, it's this object that was put together by a creature through things that God himself actually made And we do that we put it up on the stand and we stare at it we bow down to it we pray to it and so that's what we were talking about and then this gentleman comes over and He says he could tell we were you know, I think a little bit in that quiet. We were a little bit Christian miffed about what was happening Little bit provoked. It was a little bit Christian miffing going on and and yeah, we were a little bit provoked and and He comes over. He says do you you guys have any questions and we asked me that and I said right no No, no, I don't have any questions I know what it is and I said it was just commenting on the idolatry and the false worship and he was like this isn't idolatry I said well I have all these people here praying to this statue and he was like they're not they're not worshiping this statue And so I just everybody like looked around at each other like are we all in the same environment right now the same scene Setting is is that in front of us right now? So I just looked over and I just pointed my hand over to this I said everybody over here is facing this statue that they carried in and sat on a table Everybody is facing this statue and everybody is praying to Mary and they're all facing the statue And so that started the conversation with this gentleman the full Well, Carmen unfortunately was in the in the bathroom You got it you got to give him some grace. I want to give him some grace because he was actually there earlier than me And so he had been there for a while and he's he spent you know two weeks going out to the capital of film stuff And so he showed up sort of 5 minutes 10 minutes into the conversation anyway the entire conversation that I had with him that was filmed is Is up here on apology at studios right now encourage you to check it out after this we're gonna play some clips of it here for you There was a conversation with this gentleman and a conversation with a really sweet and just a really amazing young man Who's Roman Catholic and his mom and so there was a number of people that witnessed the conversation were there so it's a good conversation. I hope it's a blessing to all of you and I wanted to play a clip of it because I think it's it's a really important part of the conversation This is the part of the conversation. We want a couple play He was throwing kind of a lot of questions at me I just keep kind of changing into the next topic question and so I was trying to you know deal with everyone that I could and At this point of the conversation, this is about 15 minutes into the conversation He he kind of just leaps right into the discussion about Jesus and his his his flesh and his blood from John six And so I think this would be a really good part of the conversation to listen to Yes, yeah chapter six. Yeah, you eat my flesh and drink my blood. Yeah, I have no blood within no life No life in you. Yeah, right. Mm-hmm. And then all of all of the apostles that were there Well, many of the disciples left well first of all. They said this teaching is too hard too hard. Yeah, I didn't say Well, I was just kidding. I was using as a metaphor. He said oh wait. Oh, I see we're saying you're okay You're you're you have no life within you're suggesting that when Jesus says eat my flesh and drink blood my blood He was talking about Transubstantiation and the last supper before you jump to that. Well, hold on. Can I can ask you though? Let me sure sure. Yes, sir So the Jews blood is sacred to the Jews Right and well in what in what way has to be kosher can't have no blood because what? Is what the Jews believed conveyed the spirit of whatever it was? So if you ate the blood of the light the life is in the blood, right? That's what scripture says You ate the blood of an animal. They believe that you were taking that blood that spirit into you blood You were taking the spirit of the animal into you by having their blood Jesus specifically says unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life within you because what he was trying to say Is I want you to take my spirit within you and that was where is this in the text? Where is this in the text John? Chapter six no you just suggested that Jesus was saying I want you to take my spirit into you by drinking my blood And I'm asking where the Bible teaches that where? Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life I know that the text says that but you suggested the Jesus was saying you'll take my spirit in you by drinking my blood and that's because all the Jews knew that if you have blood you're taking the spirit of whatever it is that's blood It is well, it's just didn't believe that animals had spirit, sir So that's that's hard to think that they would have thought that but scripture doesn't teach that Well, there's there's a number of reasons why they have kosher laws has to do with dietary restrictions the the holiness code and those those things Well, can I all respond I'll respond so first of all when Jesus is speaking in John 6 that is Earlier in the ministry than was even presented the Last Supper or what God gives in communion Right and if you read John chapter 6 Jesus actually defines what he's talking about when they say it's hard What he's saying is hard? He says that those who eat his flesh and drink his blood are those who believe in him and come to him So can I point to me out to you? I'm gonna point something out to you in the text in John 6 He says to a crowd before they even understand what communion is or what the Eucharist is They don't even have any there's never it's not been presented to them yet. Well, they've had the man in the desert Right, but in terms of what you're where you're trying to make a connection between Transubstantiation and the Eucharist and John 6 Jesus says to that crowd at that time He says eat my flesh and drink my blood or you have no life in you and they think that's hard But then he tells them he says that eating his flesh and drinking his blood is coming to him and believing in him So can I ask you a question? Let's let me sir. I'd like to talk a lot. I mean, it is one question Why did he allow his disciples to walk away? Well, there's a number of times he did that but real real fast. Let me just Finish the thought I could just walk away. I'll answer. I'll answer that after I finish it And then answering what you said Peter and the boys and said what about you? Let me sorry, sir. Let me just finish before I answer the next question, right Sorry, I'm gonna finish answering the first question before it gets that one so In that moment on that day early on in the ministry of Jesus the Eucharist hasn't been presented yet They don't have any concept of it yet. They have not had the last supper There's crowds of people and he says if you eat his flesh and drink his blood that you would have eternal life They're thinking it's hard And he says he he says to them that eating his flesh and drinking his blood is coming to him and believing in him So the question to be asked is if according to Jesus eating his flesh and drinking his blood is believing in him and coming to him Then that day if anybody believed in him did they eat his flesh and drink his blood and the answer is yes According to Jesus nothing to do with the Eucharist I disagree. Well, that's what the text says So in important conversation this whole conversation starts Well, I'm sorry. I shouldn't say starts it gets to the point of What do you believe is accomplished in the atonement, right? Yeah, so I challenge him as a Roman Catholic that Rome has changed the glory of the atonement and what is accomplished in the atonement the writer of Hebrews says that through one offering he perfects forever those who draw near to God through him and it's a once-for-all he died once for all and So when could hold this together now, okay? The scriptures talk about the atonement as something that is able to put it able to perfect forever those who draw near to God through him And then it's a once-for-all sacrifice, okay? Now what Rome does in the mass is they believe that what takes place in the mass is a Presentation of that once-for-all sacrifice and you are it's it's this this presentation of what took place on the cross and You as a Roman Catholic go now you've got sins as a Roman Catholic that you have to deal with and that You maybe even have to spend time in purgatory, you know, dealing with and there's all kinds of issues as posseo and other things But here's the point according to the Roman Catholic and I bring this up to this gentleman You know, you went to mass on Sunday He says he went on Sunday and so there's a cleansing that took place on Sunday But here we are on Wednesday And I said have you committed a new venial sin since Sunday? He says well, yes And I said so you still have now sins to be accountable for God and so that atonement that mass That presentation that happened there did not perfect you It needs to be you need it represented again and again and again And so if you if you miss the mass Then you're gonna miss that opportunity to have those sins cleansed and then you could die in that state You got to deal with those sins And so I was pointing out that the atonement of Christ is a perfect atonement that perfects forever those who draw near to God through him And it's a once-for-all sacrifice Jesus sat down It's not it that's what makes him so much better than all those other priests in the past where they don't sit down They are constantly repeating the sacrifices. It is a repetitive sacrifice Whereas Jesus sacrifice in atonement is once-for-all. He sits down It's able to perfect forever those who draw near to God through him and Jesus says it is finished And what I was pointing out is that Rome has so distorted the meaning of all of the the atonement and the Eucharist and all the rest That it it perfects nobody It perfects nobody ultimately and you don't have peace with God and when he was saying no I do have peace with God I was like are you gonna go to purgatory? He said well, you know probably yes What for is it for for sin like that you have to deal with and the and the other Roman Catholic sweet Roman Catholic Roman Catholic lady said well like well, justice still has to be satisfied. It's like that's the point That's the point the sufficiency of the work of Jesus. There you go. Justice was satisfied Yeah, at the cross and so I said so wait a second So you're saying that Jesus satisfies the justice of God for your sins But you also have to satisfy have it satisfied as well and so that's what purgatory is about That's what she said of course, you know She doesn't represent you know Rome and the papacy and everything But that's how she understands as a Roman Catholic and so I was challenging him that you don't have peace with God Because you still have sins that you have to be accountable for that you need to be purified these things need to be purged and all the rest And so the atonement that you believe in is not the atonement that Bible says actually took place the gospel is so much better than that And then so that's where we went with that so then moving into this discussion the conversation then went into he's trying to talk about transubstantiation and The eating of the body and blood of Jesus and what I was pointing out. This is key. This is so so so critical Because it's interesting. It's not the only time I've seen this. I've seen sharp guys use the same documentation like unfortunately Hank Hennigraff The who used to be the Bible answer man and when he converted to Eastern Orthodoxy. I heard him Not not long after he converted to Eastern Orthodoxy where he was using this same terrible argumentation to advocate for what he believed about the Eucharist and he was going to John 6 to try to connect the Eucharist in the last supper and it should be obvious to all of us Where's John 6 in the ministry of Jesus? long before the Eucharist long before the last supper and so my point here and this is critical is that Jesus does Make it synonymous in the text Synonymous eating his flesh and drinking his blood eternal life Believing in him Eternal life he makes him the same and I'm gonna read the text to you right here. He says in John chapter 6 I'm gonna read from 41. Okay. Well, no, I'll come down. So that's a lot. Okay, here. Go 47 Truly truly I say to you whoever believes has eternal life. That's in 47, okay And I didn't think I even think earlier than that I hate doing this on my phone guys. That's that's the challenge for me All right, here we go. I left my Bible at home guys. Don't don't condemn me Okay, so I'll do I'll do 41 so the Jews grumbled about him because he said I'm the bread that came down from heaven They said is not this Jesus the son of Joseph whose father and mother we know how does he now say I've come down from heaven Jesus answered them do not grumble among yourselves No one can come to me unless father sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day It is written in the prophets and they will all be taught by God everyone who has heard and learned from the father comes to me Not that anyone has seen the father except he who is from God. He has seen the father truly truly I say to you whoever believes has eternal life I am the bread of life your father's ate the man in the wilderness and they died This is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat of it and not die I am the living bread that came down from heaven if anyone eats of this bread He will live forever and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh The Jews then disputed among themselves saying how can this man give us his flesh to eat? So Jesus said to them truly truly I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood You have no life and you whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life And I will raise him up in the last day. That's 54, but you already heard him say before that In verse 47 truly truly I say to you whoever believes has eternal life so believing in Christ Have eternal life eating his flesh and drinking his blood eternal life again when does this take place in the ministry and life of Jesus long before last supper and Long before the Eucharist and that whole thing was even given to them and explained to them So my point was is this day when Jesus had this discourse If somebody had said wow, I believe in Jesus Did they eat his flesh and drink his blood? Yeah, yes Did they have eternal life? Yes, and that was before the Eucharist was given See the point and so when you look at the text, it's not saying what Rome tries to make it say It's not even exegetically possible to make that leap because this is john six It's a completely different context of of the last supper And what takes place in communion and so this is often used however by roman catholics because there's the terminology of eating my flesh and drinking my blood And so they try to make the connection there and oh, this is transendentiation and it's actually the physical body of Jesus like through transendentiation And somebody if you read the text, Jesus is equating believing him And eternal life with eating his flesh and drinking his blood and he even uses This example from the Old Testament with the manna and the wilderness, right? The bread come down from heaven Well, that was symbolic wasn't it The bread come down from heaven is actually Jesus And so the hope that he's he's already Jesus is already pointing to the symbolism that God has Embedded in this redemptive story that points to Jesus And so why would we take it then and turn it into something like transendentiation? I think that day people who believe in Jesus right in that moment when he gave the discourse They had eternal life and had eaten his flesh and drink and drink his blood it's also not the first time we're seeing in the gospels the identification of bread with the word right and Jesus himself being the living word so Matthew says Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God And according to Jesus. He's the living manna That came down from heaven to truly satisfy us so that we would never hunger and never thirst. That's right and that is A reality that is commemorated in the act of taking of the elements into ourselves in the same way that baptism is a rehearsal of that Transformation that's taken place. It's a picture of our death and resurrection with the Lord Jesus But it's a picture. It's a symbol right commemorating That union with christ. So interesting comment that just came in here. Uh, i'll address it. This is classic classic Protestantism Just disregard what Jesus said because he said this other thing somewhere else I I respectfully I don't think you listened to a word that was just said I was in john six reading john six and I was pointing to the context of john six I even pointed to the time of john six and when this was in relation to the eucharist and I read from John six In the same discourse just not many verses apart from one another where jesus on the one hand says those who believe in him have eternal life And those who eat his flesh and drink his blood have eternal life So he equates the two believing in him is what brings you to eternal life believing in him is eating his flesh and drinking his blood So it is interesting When when people will hear But not understand what's being said and make charges like this that demonstrate that you're you're not really paying attention I was I was just in john six and explaining the text from its own context and And making the point that this before jesus gave The last supper and presented the elements and said this is my body. This is my blood And so we were in john six just now. I don't know what you mean by going really important point is reading The text sequentially and allowing john to speak Not going to one event and then reading that back into what comes prior You know this reminds me of it reminds me of those that have Objected to calvinism by saying well look at jesus's teaching about the vine and the branches Right, you can be lost because look the the branches are removed from the vine But what you know that text isn't saying is that people can lose their salvation once christ to save them Why what because what's come before in john? He gives them eternal life eternal life Right. Yeah, none that the father has given to him will be lost So you know what the text isn't saying right is that Uh true believers can be lost because jesus already the promise because john has an argument before we get to that point Right that you need to read first right exactly one and the whole idea of You know receiving the spirit when you eat Of the of christ body and drink of his blood um that idea Comes from a jewish superstition right like he's like well that's what the jews believe so therefore and it's like well But that's not a biblical concept why he asked like well why did they do that like well because jesus or not jesus because god said To not eat the blood to separate them right to make them holy before the other nations um and I'm not an expert on them, but i think it was because the pagan nations were drinking blood as a as a pagan ritual for sure And so but yeah, but i mean just that whole idea just comes from a jewish superstition is not from not from the scriptures at all well, I would say the biblical uh the biblical text would give you a different uh a different perspective in terms of the the beasts and the animals and whether they have spirits All the rest and uh and so it is interesting that that concept he was trying to Yeah, I kind of heard that before so this is interesting but I think the main point there is is what Is forced into the text? Is something from outside of it Now as Protestants as those who hold us all the scriptora and todo scriptora We want to let the text do the talking and yield to what the text says. What is the what's the text teaching me not? What do you have as some preconceived notion and idea or system? Do you want me to you want me to believe? So when he says well, what jesus he said what jesus is was trying to say I don't think jesus tries to say anything You know, let me fill in the gaps for jesus here and what he was trying I'm trying to speak for god. It doesn't go well Well, let me help jesus out here what he was trying to say was it's like no no what you're saying This is ice of jesus as I have a have a concept over here a system over here And I want jesus to be saying that and so he tries to say what jesus is saying trying to say here Is that if you drink his blood you would receive his spirit into you and that's why I said to him Where is that in the text? Where where is any of that in the text? He said what's john six where? Well, you know, that's that's what's trying to be communicated It's like well, no, let's let's let's let the text of the talking and if you let the text do the talking You get the time right when was this in relation to the eucharist long before and if you if you listen to the text jesus equates believing in him As giving you eternal life and eating flesh and drinking his blood as giving eternal life So if I believe in jesus, I have eternal life therefore if I believe in jesus, I have received his Body and blood his flesh and his blood and that's what john six says and like I said you have to challenge yourself on this point On that day jesus makes a promise. Let's say it was a monday All right, let's pretend for a minute that the that the last seper was on friday And on monday jesus says if you believe in me you have eternal life again equated with eating his flesh drinking his blood have eternal life on monday If somebody said I believe Did they have eternal life? Did they eat his flesh and drink his blood? Well if you read john six on monday, they did And it's not even friday yet. Do you get the point it hasn't even happened yet But according to jesus and john six and the text They have and they had eternal life and that's the point uh, and I think that's very very important and uh, you know, there's there's a lot of great areas of dispute between us and our roman catholic friends and You know roman catholics can can you know be formidable debaters and and super sharp and I respect so many of them Uh, but I think this argument is extremely bad um, and uh the text just says something completely different and so uh, we are going to Uh, do a quick after show at apologias studios.com After show at apologias studios.com if you have all access you can meet us over there But before we go wanted to encourage everybody to go to ion layer.com ion ion layer.com You've heard me talking about for some time now nad treatments and the benefits of nad I do it. 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However, it's extraordinarily painful to do that IV drip with nad Uh, it's again very worth it, but it is expensive and it's painful What these guys and ion layer have figured out is how to do all of this through a medical patch A device that you put on to your arm that gets the nad into you throughout 14 hours over the day And you do it without the con without the consequences of the pain And so you get all the benefits the health benefits And you do it without all the pain and so it's also significantly cheaper Uh than six nad treatments via IV and so go to ion layer.com if you want to start investing in your health and well-being And uh, and you want to get that fountain of youth chemical into your system You got your zone right on. Yeah, I got mine coming. Uh, I think tomorrow So you can go there and type in apology and all caps into the coupon code and uh, I can't wait to my kit comes again tomorrow Uh and luke um real quick before I get into those because I there's a Catholic man in here arguing with this about um The spirit and the blood So this is and this is what you were trying to make. This is the point you're trying to make this quick Because he just he's like it's in leviticus 1711. Just look it up What it says is for the life of the flesh is in the blood It says nothing about the spirit of the animal the spirit of being in the blood and that was the point you were trying to make Not that even I even quoted that. Yeah. I said the life is in the blood this room And so to our catholic friends that are watching this You look up the verse and read it. It doesn't say anything about the spirit of the animal being in the blood It's about the life being in the blood and clearly without blood you don't have life and it has to do with atonement It has to do with sacrifices um And so anyways, I just wanted to mention that real quick because I don't want any propaganda going in in our live chat. So Um, so yeah, uh, you know, uh Who who also believes that uh, Rome teaches the false gospel bill rapier for mantic blades Where you could get this nice battle axe This thing's amazing. Um, you can get some sweet blades at amtechblades.com bills are good front of ours Uh, I just talked to me the day. I actually love that guy former dev grew co team six operator Former well, he's still awesome. He's always awesome But uh, you can go to amtechblades.com put apology in the coupon code and get five percent off and he will donate five percent to And abortion now and then of course also Bradley pierce from heritage defense Also believes that rome teaches false gospel since we're talking about it. Um, and if you are homeschooling your kids Please go sign up now. It is not expensive. It's very affordable put apology in the coupon code And you get your first month three and it is worth every penny So everybody got a little uh super chat here. Thank you reform mike Uh, if all our sins are covered past present and future why do we need to still repent for new sins And be forgiven if they are already paid for first john one nine. How do we understand this in light of roman catholicism? Okay? Great question reform mike scripture teaches Jesus says in john five 24. He says truly truly I say to you he who hears my voice and believes him who sent me Has eternal life. You do not come into judgment. You passed out of death and into life scripture teaches in roman's chapter eight as paul moves his way through an explanation of the gospel He says therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in christ jesus Uh, the bible teaches very clearly and plainly that the cross of jesus christ is a finished work It's able to perfect forever. They're drawn forever those who draw near to god through him So all those together go read those texts read them in context go and and read those sections and passages I'm sure you already know those reform mike Um because you're called reform mike Uh, but why do we still need to repent for new sins? And I think the answer should be clear and obvious to all of us If we are redeemed if we are saved people if our sins have been taken away If god does no longer condemn us and if we call god father then we walk with him in truth And john even makes the point if you say you have no sin you're a liar Um, and the truth is not in you and so we're taught by the apostles to walk Uprightly and honestly with our father meaning Uh, now we even have the spirit of god within us convicting us showing us our sin that god has dealt with It is finished. So we walk with our father as a child of god confessing our sin Rejoicing being honest with god, uh, again having integrity being upright confessing and when god convicts us We confess that sin we put it to death and we grow and we heal and we're sanctified But all those sins are dealt with in it is finished The ones for all sacrifice And so I think it's clear from scripture that christians are called to walk Honestly with their father confess their sin Put their sin behind them put their sin to death We walk with god and that's how we're sanctified And the scriptures are really clear that the blood of christ goes on cleansing us from sin And so I hope that helps reform mark. I'm sure we could do more but uh, we're at the end of the show here Anymore super jets doesn't look like we do. I'll just say one of the quick thing hJ evan Um Bible says the offer not murder not doubt. So i'm not killed Yeah, and jesus said to sell their cloaks and by a sword just just for the record Amen, amen Uh, all right everybody. So thank you all for watching meet us over at the after show for a quick after show Thankful for all of you guys. Thank you for watching Supporting go to end abortion now.com please and give there for the fight that we have ahead of us to Bring the issue of abolition before legislature's across the country Thank you all so much Don't forget to get your bonds and you account as well at apologyestudios.com and guess what everybody the app The app is underway Yeah, yeah Apology of studios everybody hang on The app is underway. It's being worked on soon. You'll be able to on your smartphone Have your account for all access use the app even track your progress on videos and other things And uh, get ready everybody sign up now Uh for dr. Kenneth gentry's teaching on the book of revelation. It's being worked on now It's going to be coming soon to apology of studios all access I can't wait for it myself dr. Kenneth gentry. I'm so excited Spent a week with us and uh film that for all of us And so that's coming to go sign up for all access guys. Thank you guys. That's a look to bear Peace out. I'm the ninja and that is acrykonova. See you guys and we'll catch you next week You You (rock music)
