(upbeat music) ♪ Bad morning Joe, badass ♪ Frank Jennings, Sportsnet 5.9 of the Fan. Those the voices of William Neelander and Austin Matthews who sound very despondent. I'm sure Mitch Marner would have sounded very despondent as well as would Morgan Riley. We didn't hear from them on Saturday. We will hear from them today as the Leafs have their final player or media availability of the season. Also the head coach will speak after 11 o'clock on Sportsnet 5.90 of the Fan. Executives. - Yes. - Or executive will speak on Thursday. It's weird how that's been positioned. We have not been told exactly who speaks on Thursday executive would lead you to believe, "Oh, it's Brendan Chan, hey, he's a president." But they didn't say Brendan Chan, and they didn't say Brad for a living. Keith Pelley is now in the mix. Do we hear from him on Thursday? Anyways, today we'll be interesting, Brent. - Yeah, I think there is something to be read into that, but I also think that there's, the reason they had to message it as executives is there's no way they could have come out, especially having, and they don't think they needed to fire Sheldon Keefe seconds after the game, but not doing that. And then going, "Oh yeah, Brendan Chanahan's gonna talk on Thursday, what will we be talking about today?" Oh, great, nothing's gonna change after having seen this. If Keith is still here and Shanahan is the guy, I think that is why they messaged it in that way. We've touched on this a couple of times. Let me just ask you point blank. Does it matter to you? Does it matter at all that Riley and Marner don't talk after the game? - It doesn't really irk me again, like, and yeah, part of the lyric of the song coming in here is, you know, same old faces. Yeah, like, we've heard it before. We heard from many of the principals, agreed, right? And we will hear from Mitch Marner and Morgan Riley today. What, you wanted to see them cry? You wanted to see them? I say, man, what a horrible play. Now, here's the, here would be the argument for it, is that today it's all about the future, right? And you don't get to ask, I mean, you could, and maybe someone will, specifically about that play and the overtime play and gave the pass back. - Can I answer that for you right now? - Yeah. - Honestly, there's many things we wish we could have done differently, so we'd be playing in Florida today. - Right. - Okay, there, no. - So, you just, I mean, the reason for wanting them to speak is wanting them to feel the pain that they clearly do feel. Like, you just want that performative thing. - Well, not intentional. I'm just saying, like, you just want that because it feels like you're pounding a flash if you want to hear from those guys on Saturday. - I think there's some element to that. They also both wear letters for the team. Like, if that means anything, if the idea of being part of the leadership core, and it's not just to talk to the media, and I honestly feel very differently about it for both guys involved. I'm not Morgan Riley's dad, so maybe I don't get to feel this way. I was very disappointed, I was very disappointed that Morgan Riley did not talk. This is a guy who stepped to the mic and wears it every time, and so can I say, "Okay, you get your one off?" And I'll be honest, with Marner not talking there, it does feel a little like ducking accountability. He's gonna have accountability for whatever happens this offseason. He's gonna talk today at some point in time, but it's not lost on me that the two guys who I don't think it's an excuse, but who had excuses to hold up in Matthews and Newlander, both are like, "Yeah, I'm here, I'm talking." They also both scored in the game, and the guy who didn't miss any time in the series is not there. Like, I probably am not right to tie those things together, but it wasn't kind of lost on me. So kind of-- - I think you Riley's said exactly what would have been said in that moment, and yeah, we-- - No, no, no. I think you get a slightly, I think you would have got a slightly more illuminating answer on Saturday night, but now, no chance. - We'll see. All right, let's talk to Gord Stellick, the great Gord Stellick, how's it going Gordo? - Well, I'm glad we had the J's game yesterday as a tonic to bounce back from Saturday night. What a weekend, we're the most abuse fan base in North America. - Yeah, okay, so all right, let's start there. There are, like I said, we started the show with the curse of it all, and how insane it is to lose that many consecutive winner-take-all games, and there's real reasons, right? And we'll get in, you don't just, if you're managing the trauma, you just throw your hands up and you say, "What are we supposed to do? We're cursed." But like, it's really hard not to think that way. How does that permeate to the executives that you're like, "Oh my God, like, the definition of a coin flip game "is getting to a winner-take-all one, "and the definition of getting to a coin flip moment "in a coin flip game is getting to game seven over time." And none of them have come up heads. Like, how do you avoid getting down the line of thinking that way if you're one of the people in charge of this thing? - Well, yeah, well, it's a complete cop-out, but of course, if you want to keep your job, you want to throw that one out there. I mean, you know, both the curse, whatever, but the thing that's the last couple of years, when it's been a game seven, like Tampa Bay and this one, I mean, those are really competitive game sevens. Now, you back up in the series go, "What shouldn't have got the game seven?" You take issues with the other games before that, but Montreal, Columbus, and those Boston series, those were horrible game sevens. They saved their worst for last. I mean, there was no curse there. They saved their bloody worst hockey for the deciding game. And at that time, we were assured by Kyle Dubas and others that this was part of the process and just whatever. And, you know, at that particular point, you should say, "Hey guys, why are we playing our bloody worst hockey or our worst-ever effort?" Whatever, in the deciding game. So the last couple, that hasn't come into play. But, you know, collectively, it's just a ridiculous, absurd, futile playoff run. You know, ever since the car keys got handed over from Lou Lamarello to Kyle Dubas? Yeah, I mean, it's been fruitless. Yeah, the one post-season win to show for it. And then you're immediately kind of bounced in five. I think if you're gonna believe in ghosts and goblins and ghouls and curses, Joe Wall getting hurt in the dying seconds of a game six-win trying to stop a shot, then he didn't stop. That ultimately didn't matter in the game. Boy, that certainly feels like it. You know, there are a lot of negatives to pick at. We've done it all day. Is there anybody you feel kind of differently about in a positive light coming out of this series? I mean, for me, it is one guy. It's pretty easy to point to and that's Matthew Nye's. You know, maybe I shouldn't feel differently about it 'cause I thought we saw some of this in the playoffs last year. But, I mean, it's been also doom and gloom, rightfully. So this morning, Gordo. But I just kind of want to take this time to give Matthew Nye's his due. Because if anybody gave you hope of what you're kind of building or what's to come, I mean, not take anything away from Matthew's knee lander. But, man, I thought Nye's really had a bit of a coming out party is just a man in this league, quite honestly. Well, and Brent, you gotta break it down that way as well. There's just so many balls in the air when you're talking about the big picture and, you know, the disappointments and years gone by. And the fact is, and one reason I had some optimism was this Boston Ruined Team, first of all, was nowhere near the Boston Ruined Team that beat the Leafs. They were very gettable this time. And there's a lot of, I like the core, the depth of the leaf feed that they had. You know, Bobby McMan didn't play, but I like the fact that, you know, a guy they developed from within, I like that Bertuzzi and Domi were free agents that really, really came into play the last third of the season and in the playoffs. I like the fact that Matthew Nye's and Joe Wall, Nye's in the second round, Joe Wall in the third round, that you get two players that were, you know, drafted, two draft choices, and hopefully, Easton Collins the same, a first round pick that was named OHL Player of the Year. But two guys are really blossoming in the NHL and also next year both Nye's and Joe Wall have one more year of their entry level contract. And you need that to balance in the salary cap world, those kind of entry level contracts. The one concern again about Joe Wall and it came up in game six is his propensity get hurt. And, you know, that's something we'll have to see as we move forward, but that is the one concern. I've always been big on bullish on him and goal, and he's certainly proved that in the playoffs again, but also, you know, bullish about his injury situation. That's been a constant nagging unfortunate problem. - Yeah, it's not a surprise that he missed a big swath of games this season with a high ankle sprain. And yeah, it was a surprise to see him depart before game seven. That was a new wrinkle in it, but you're right. Like that's been the story of his entire career. I think he's gonna go into next season as the anointed number one starter for this team. But obviously there's gonna be a new tandem here as you're waving goodbye to Ilya Samsonov. Like, how do you approach the guy that's going to share duty with him? Because this is not gonna be like 60 star Joe Wall, obviously, and you have to prime yourself for, perhaps another stint on the injured list. Like, how do you approach the guy that's gonna share time with Joe Wall next season? - Well, you know, I'm just sort of approaching what I hear today and what I hear Thursday when management talks. I mean, I'm more concerned about, can he be the number one guy? So number one guys generally is kind of two thirds, one third in general. And I believe he could be the number one guy. Can he be healthy? You know, hey, Freddie Anderson had been then all of a sudden had consecutive years here and in Carolina that he wasn't. And that's just something that you, okay, you want to get a competent backup in place, whoever that may be. But I'm more on the positive side than it looks for first time since Felix Potts and that they've developed a quality young goaltender from within. - Yeah, they're gonna need him to be that. I mean, you mentioned the cap hit next year that does allow them to maybe spend a little more on a guy who is that 1B backup type. But I think that's the tough part about Joe Wall is that you want to give him, you know, you don't want to just hand him the net necessarily, but you want to give him a lot of runway, but the guy behind him, you also need to have a lot of faith in because it's entirely possible that this injury stuff is gonna rear its head any time. You mentioned what we're gonna hear today later this week. What do you expect to hear from Keith today? I mean, everybody is expecting him to be, or a lot of people expecting him to be among the casualties at the very least here. What do you expect to hear from him? What's left to say? Do you think there'll be a little bit of a airing it out with maybe an understanding of what's to come? What are you expecting to hear from Keith today, Gordo? - So now they confirm Keith's gonna talk to theirs. - Yes, yes. - They have confirmed that, okay. So I was wondering whether he was gonna be moved to Thursday or here. And I do know when Brenda Shanahan took over, after year one, on the Bloody Sunday, he obliterated like almost 30 staff members, including the General Manager Dave Nellis, and the coach at that time, Peter Horacek. So I would, I don't know what it means, you know, about, you know, like, you think of Keith as a casualty on Thursday, should he have spoken today? But, you know, I thought he was pretty good on Saturday. He acknowledges that whatever you're saying, you know, whatever you can say right now, falls on deaf ears. He acknowledged that, you know, and I, you know, it's funny all the, and Brent, I love your passion and that. I got a lot of friends, a lot of text threads and a lot of passion that was going on during the game. But one, and somebody a little bit older just kind of said, I'm already over it. You know, kind of like I just said, I'm looking forward to, you know, finally some spring cleaning, you know, whatever. And, and also it's not going to be sweeping spring cleaning nor should it be sweeping as some people think. So I just, I don't know, like Sheldon's been very professional about things and, you know, we'll see what gives your, I don't think you're going to get Kyle Dewis like last year, Kyle Dubas stunning everyone by talking about how pressure packed the job was and he might not be back. I don't think you're going to get any of that from anybody. - Yeah, that was a rough one. Mitch Marner is the guy that we, I think, are most primed to hear from today. We didn't hear from him after Saturday. He watched David Pasternak skate right by him and score the overtime winner. He's due an extension by somebody after July 1st, this offseason. There's pretty clear that that won't be coming in the immediacy at least from the Toronto Maple Leafs. And in fact, there might be a conversation about waving is no move clause. Like, where are you on Mitch Marner as we stand today? - Well, the reality is like John Tavares and they earned it about having no move, no whatever contract. So obviously they would need to cooperate. And where am I on Mitch Marner? And it's same thing four years ago. And again, instead of, you know, taking issue with how terribly the team played against Columbus and losing a series, they never should have lost with a guy named Pierre-Luc Duvois, who now looked thinking of buying him out in Los Angeles, but he was like the, he was like the cons Mike Trophy winner in that series against the Leafs way back when playing for a coach and a team and a city he didn't want to play for in Columbus. And at that point, you know, Kyle Duvois said I'm pissed off at the criticism at Mitch Marner. And that's whatever number of years ago. And here we are again. And I'm just saying, I've always disagreed with it, you know, because I just think that guys are ripe for any kind of criticism. And if you're talking social media stuff, I don't count that because that's, you know, you're talking about the depths of the property in some cases, but if that's what's, you know, I can't walk and issue. So if that's what's got to him to that kind of degree, then I would think then, you know, he would be amenable to a change of scenery. The Leafs might be looking at it saying, look, we've re-up, Neil Andrew, we've re-up Matthews. Whatever Mitch Marner is going to want, it's not, there's a doubt we could get at it. And then also, maybe if he wants to go, so if this is where it is, that he feels maligned and abused or whatever words, then hey, you know, you look at, I'm not thinking, well, what about back with Kyle Duvois and Pittsburgh? You know, he likes them, Sidney, they want a little more kick at it, play with Sidney Crosby. I'm just throwing that out. I have no idea. - Oh, my God, my God, my God, oh my God, breaking the heat on a Monday. - Well, they get one more, you know, I don't know. That's the kind of stuff for him to talk. So, you know, I don't think he's going to give you any headway today. I mean, the players in some ways to face the media today, there's not a hell of a lot to say, you know? I mean, I'd rather have had some, you know, more, you know, I think I like Willie. He has some bite when he talks about things, but I think you're going to get a bunch of guys that you think it's one of those debates to be Toronto Mayor, you know, and kind of chatting. - Yeah, it does seem like he's going to try to, try to kind of toe a company line of sorts or just his own line. But yeah, I think there is, I don't know. It's all, you never know what you're going to get. And once the questions start flying, you never know where these things can kind of turn. - Another thing that's so tough coming out of this series is it's not just having a referendum on this one series. We've been doing this for six, seven, eight years now. But if you're going to talk about this series, no one wants to hear excuses, but I don't think it's an excuse when you're missing your two best power play players for long chunks of the series and you're missing the league's best goal score and then you still manage to push the series to a game seven and it's overtime in a couple of these games. I don't think any of the changes that need to happen shouldn't happen now. But it is tough when you're looking at how to honestly judge this series when you say, yeah, knee lander and Matthews playing in, forget all the games, just most of them, for both of them would have changed something you have to think. And it's just such the frustrating part about this Leafs era is that it seems like every year there's the one thing you can point to, but this, but that. But I also don't think you can just paper over missing knee lander and Matthews for large, large chunks of the series. - Well, you don't have to paper over it, but you know, those kinds of excuses are for teams that lose. Like it's a bad call against Tampa Bay one year. It's Jake Muslin against Columbus. It's John Tavares against Montreal, you know, whatever. I mean, you're right in that there's a lot, there's a lot of positives to pick out of this particular series. Fact is you got great goaltending, but you know, every game except Joe Wall and game five or six, you know, boss Swainman was one goal better. Like, like, like, like, you know, Sam's not played great by that overtime goal. He's got that kind of bounce past in it yet. You know, he can't sit back in the crease. And you know, so it's just one play, but it's the series deciding goal and he misplayed it. You got the fourth line. What was the fourth time this year or fourth time in the series of fourth line goal against? You've got a power play, you get killed on special teams regardless who's out of the lineup. And you go back to 14 playoff games and 13 of them have not been able to score more than two goals on a team that was the second the league and goal scoring this year. Like, I mean, when it mattered, their strength, which is goal scoring, you expect them to lose, like, say, maybe Winnipeg did against Colorado 7-5 or something. They couldn't, we're able to do it. So, I mean, those to me are bigger things than whoever wasn't able to play for certain games. But, you know, that's a valid point to make. But when you just collectively, it's pales by comparison to some of the other things. No, that's the scoring entirely. And the power play exemplifies it, right? One for 21 is untenable. That's, you just can't. You can't be the second highest scoring team in the regular season. And even if you're not the second best power play in the league that were in February, you're at least a top 10 unit. You cannot go one for 21. I don't care how great Jeremy Swamin is. I don't care how great the Bruins are at killing penalties. That's the thing. I mean, who does that fall on the most? And it does feel like, and maybe this is just fan speak, because we haven't heard, you know, Brad for Living or Brendan Shanahan indicate that it is Mitch Marner that's going out the door. But like, who's the embodiment of the offensive failures? Austin Matthews had the incredible game too. He's yet to score in a game seven in his entire career. William Neelander scored three goals over the final two games. And, you know, it single handedly won them the game on Thursday at home with the two goals there. Who wears the lack of scoring, which now goes beyond just this series. It's the last two seasons and it's really the entirety of the postseason failures for this Maple Leaf team. - Yeah, well, United do stand divided, we fall. I mean, you know, it's collective, it's shared. There's no, you know, if there's just one individual who's off on the power play, that means there's four others that should be make the power play goal kind of thing. So it's like I say, this is an organizational thing as far as the team goes. Coach wears it, Brendan Shanahan's been around a long time. So he wears it, Brad, you're living to a lesser degree, but you'll wear it, you'll all wear it. You'll wear the positives and you'll wear the negatives. And that's a huge negative, the power play for the Toronto Maple Leafs in this particular playoff. I mean, you know, so I mean, they get paid big money to figure it out so they can break it down. I'm not really interested why it didn't happen. It just didn't happen. And it wasn't even like, you know, Miss Chance after Miss Chance after Miss Chance. - It created nothing. - Just wasn't happening. No, Jeremy Swam, there's no like highlight reel of Jeremy Swam and killing penalties, like, yeah, big looking like Dominic Hasick out there. Sorry, it didn't happen. Gordo, always a pleasure. And it's been a pleasure all season long talking to you on Mondays. Have a great summer, buddy. - Well, we'll do. And I guess we're gonna have, we'll see how much of an interesting week we have off the ice, but yeah, always a pleasure. So have a good one, we'll see what happens from here. - God love you, Gordo. - Yes. - Take care, guys. - See ya. Bye, bye. Yeah, that's the through line. It's the lack of scoring. And it's the number one reason why I can point the finger at Brendan Shanahan. And I guess the people he's put in charge, specifically Kyle Dubas before Brad for Living, that there has been this unwavering with what is clear from the outset of this, that the guys that score all the goals during the regular season don't score to nearly the same degree in the postseason. And it's everybody. Like, Austin Matthews not immune from this conversation. Like, he did score the five in the six games against the Lightning. Did not score in the five games against the Panthers. Had the incredible game too. And yeah, the mitigating circumstance about the illness and the injury has yet to score in a game seven. Like, he's played in a lot of these now. He has yet to score the highest scoring Toronto Maple Leaf ever. And maybe the highest scoring player in the history of the sport has not played or has not scored in any of the game sevens or elimination games that he's played in. Now, he had some big moments in game four, the Columbus series to send it to game. But who can any assists on the goal on Saturday? - Don't mention that. Don't mention the Columbus series. - He assists, creates a goal, a death store and gives the Leafs a lead in the third period of game seven. It's the scoring, man. Like, this is not new. Like, if you told somebody at the end of this series, it's like, "Hey, the Leafs power play failed." And the stars didn't score enough in this series. I'd be like, "Yeah, obviously." - Yeah, I mean, Austin Matthews has to wear it to an extent like all those guys do. But four points in five games. He sets up the goal that should have won them the series last night. - No, he's not the number one guy you talk about. - I know you're not, but it's just, I feel like people hear that and I would like to just get that. I'd like to read that into the record for both of us. Like, we can move on with the conversation now. But you're right. Another thing that I think has to be talked about, if we're going to talk about the power play here, and man, like we can go a million different directions in this and I don't, I don't sit here and say the Leafs power play was no good because of the defenseman that was running it. It's no good because of the players. They eat like those guys, I'm not going to say you or I, but I don't know, like Justin Bourne could be running that power play. And it should be working the way that with that talent, but what was Brad Treliving's big bet on day one or two or whatever it was, a free agency? Sean Klingberg had to rush to do that. Why? 'Cause he was going to make the power play tick. Okay, I'll believe it. I was never a believer in it, but okay. We never got to see it. And pretty early on, I know we had to wait until December until you had for real confirmation, but pretty early on, definitely post-sweet and trip. We saw the way this thing was trending, never fix that. Went out and made good moves on the, on the blue line. Like the addition of Edmondson, like Labooshkin, I was a guy clamoring for him a month and a half before he was traded. So I can't sit here and say I didn't like that, but what was the thing that bit them in the butt? It wasn't their inability to defend. It was the scoring. And Brad Treliving and the least brass as a whole thought John Klingberg was so important that they had to go out and get them on day one or two or whatever it was, a free agency. I mean, I disagreed with that, but if you felt that, you never made it a point of priority to fix that. And you can argue, you had other holes in the boat, that you had to plug, that's fair. That's fair conversation to be had. But it wasn't those other things to be, maybe because you fixed them, but it was a power play that did it. And that was such a point of emphasis heading into the season, it's just, especially in hindsight, and boy, isn't it easiest to do things that way. But especially in hindsight, it's pretty strange that they never made a point of trying to fix that. I know part of it was giving Riley the keys or Lilla Grinn, or whatever it was, but we've seen that with both those guys, with this group in the past, and it hasn't worked, shouldn't say never. >> And it's ultimately upon the players, it doesn't matter what the strategy is or what the units are. When you got that much high priced offensive talent on a power play, you should score. But that is going to be one of the top of the list items that is going to be presented to Sheldon Keefe, if in fact he's dismissed here. And I don't know, even though the explanation will probably just be like, thanks for your service, depart. But yeah, on the laundry list of reasons why you're moving off of Sheldon Keefe, I think special teams in both regards, but specifically the power play. And again, it's on the players, boy. You put enough of those guys on the ice, they should score, but that there was an inability or an unwillingness to ever, ever tinker with it, to ever split the units up, to do what the Bruins did. And I'm not saying that there's a logical reason for that, but like to do something when something was so clearly not working. - But even looking game seven that didn't score, but you got good moments from your power play, but it wasn't, no, but listen, it wasn't the chief guys doing it. It was Matthew and I's getting a look on a second unit. And especially when you have a guy like Nies who, you know, we saw a bit of this last year. So I don't mean to say that all of a sudden you're going to have 65, 70 point Matthew and I's all regular season next year, guess what? Don't care what happens in the regular season next year. I think that that is a guy that you should have seen take in these steps as a series goes on and not say so often in Leafland when that happens, you go, all right, congrats, you're part of the club. You're now with the big boys. That isn't how it should go. So congrats, you're part of the club. - Here's your unit, Nies. Go show them that you're better than the big boys. And it's the internal competition stuff. It has never been the way it's worked here and ultimately that falls on the guy at the top of it and Sheldon Keefe. But you mentioned coaching. How many coaches have had to pause on this power play? Mel Holter, Spencer Carberry was so good at coaching. He got a job out of it. He's the capital said coach now. You got Kibushay, who's got his fingerprints all over it at a certain point in time. It comes down to those guys have to find a way to make it work. And I think a big part of that is splitting them up and loaded up at times throughout the year. It's a living, breathing thing. You don't need to be so binary in your thinking, but it's all so often just load up that top unit and then it's feast your fam for everybody else. - That's great. - It's been a famine. Leaf fans are starving. They're starving. All right. We touched on Mitch Marner a little bit. It's gonna be the biggest story of the off season. What becomes of him? And I think one thing we could all agree is that there's no immediate extension coming on July 1st unless Mitch Marner is like, I just want to be a leaf. It's like, give me eight times three. - Eight eight, let's go. - Which I don't think is gonna happen. - That's probably not gonna sit well with the NHLPA. - I will say, if you want to ingratiate yourself to a city. - Sure. - Not happening. Anyways, we'll delve further into what's next for the Toronto Maple Leafs next. On the fan morning, Joe Ben and his Brent Gunning sports at 590, the fan. Dive deep into Toronto sports and the NFL. The JD Bunk is podcast. Subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. (upbeat music) - Fan morning show sports at 590, the fan Ben and his Brent Gunning. - I mean, there's not too many explicit examples. Like, I think it's pretty clear the way the rest of the NHL feels about this core of Toronto Maple Leafs. But like, there's not too many like bulletin board material things that are pull quotes. Quite like what we heard from Matthew Kachak who knows exactly what he's doing too. Like, preface is it with like, hey, I don't know how to word this exactly, but so you say it in my life to make your own hears. - Yeah. God. - If you were awesome Matthews, William, Neil, Andrew, John Tavares, anybody that's been a part of this team, Mitch Barnor, for the last eight seasons and you hear that, any normal person would be infuriated, no? - You would have to be. That's also one of Matthew's best friends. Remember the story about, I think it is Kachak who does this to Matthews. It feels weird if it would be the other way of like just the Kachak just texting Matthew's highlights of how great he is. It's like that's also Mitch Barnor's line mate from the last thing he won the Memorial Cup championship. So yeah, he knows exactly what he's doing. There's obviously a Leafs element to this, but he would be, I do believe Kachak would be given this quote if he felt it about another org, but it only matters because it's the Leafs. If he would have said this, if this would have been, if this would have been a Tampa Boston series and Boston series, yeah, and he would have loved to have tweaked Tampa just as much 'cause that's their in-state rival. It wouldn't feel the same. It wouldn't matter as much. Also, Matt Kachak, I know you would have wanted to rue these words, but where was this Saturday morning? Keith Kachak did it for you. These are your friends, Matthews and Barnor should have delivered that to a microphone before game seven, maybe a little different. - I tend to think probably not, but yeah. Well, if they're not gonna get erked and called out, it is just, it is infuriating. Everybody, they are the Cowboys, they are the Knicks, they are the team that everyone likes to get their licks in on. - Well, and also if you wanna make headlines, there's only one way to do it. It's talking about the Toronto Maple Leafs. - It's certainly not talking about the Florida Panthers. - Yeah. And yeah, sure, did Matthew Kachak have a star turn in last season because he was so good leading the Panthers all the way to a cup final? Big part of that was him against the Toronto Maple Leafs in that second round. All right, so what's next? Sheldon keeps gonna be fired. Like, we can put that at like a 99.99999% certainty. Like, there's just no world. - There seems that way. - There's just no world where he gets to do this again. Let's maybe just evaluate the Sheldon Keith tenure. - Yep. - I mean, how do you feel about it? - I think it's like everything else from this tenure. I think it is a guy who is wholly capable of being successful in this league, completely incapable of having success with this group or in this market and I don't know which the answer is to that question. I don't think the Leafs, much like with the star players are gonna talk about here, be it Mitch Marner, be it Austin Mather. I don't think the Leafs lost because they have Mitch Marner on the team. I don't think the Leafs lost 'cause Sheldon Keith is a bad head coach. I think that it ran incredibly stale here with the group. And if you were gonna be hesitant to change anything, the idea that you couldn't have changed in that spot is always gonna be the thing it comes back to. And Keith obviously has his failings in this role. Like I have questions about way handled things, but I think that is a fault of being in the role with such little success for so, so long. So I'm not taking any of the blame off of him. He's going to get fired. He's going to feel it. But I think that the Keith you got, especially in the last year, two years of this is a guy who kind of ran out of, I won't say ran out of ideas, but felt paralysis in the role. And I think that that is ultimately what I'm gonna kind of go back to, 'cause I really do feel, and I think you will get another shot at this, that the Sheldon Keith you see coaching the Kraken or pick your team is gonna be very different. And we're gonna say, oh, where was that guy in Toronto? - Well, and I assume you mean by, you know, the accountability that he's gonna hold his players to. - And it has to be said that it's different to do that in Seattle or in Boston for that matter, even than it is as the head coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs. And it's different to do it when you're Sheldon Keith, who hasn't done it in this league before. - Well, and also when you're being brought in after Mike Babcock, and like your express purpose is to not be Mike Babcock, you're like, you don't want Sheldon Keith to have to go to Arizona every off season and smooth things over with Austin Matthews, right? And Sheldon Keith is not some shrinking violet. - No, no, no. - You hear about his tenure in the American League, and then before that in junior, that Sue Greyhounds, this is not a guy that's, would be viewed in the same light as like a Bruce Boudreau, who's, I think, the prototypical players coach. But when he was hired, it was, we did the old school Mike Keenan of our era, Mike Babcock thing. These players hated his guts, and they weren't doing that again. So let's bring in somebody, even if they have, maybe if they tilt even more towards that direction, the mission statement for Sheldon Keith, when he arrived was, "Don't be Mike Babcock." - Yeah. - So, and what did he do? Immediately, Tyson Barry, you're unleashed offensively. Find hockey, we're gonna score goals again. - Music practice. - Yeah, and, I mean, in retrospect, and in the moment, I think it's a tough spot to put a first time head coach. - This is a great point, honestly. Like, I definitely thought about it in the moment, but I don't know that I've like put two and two together since then, 'cause it's just been so long a key, but this is a great point you're making. - Yeah, this is, it was at the time, and it was only a couple of years removed from selecting Austin Matthews, first overall, and being the worst team in hockey. But the rebut, this was not a Buffalo Sabers thing. You're like, "When will it coalesce immediately?" And immediately, they're in a postseason series against the president's trophy champions and taking them to six games and you get better goal-tending. Maybe winning the series in year one with Austin Matthews by year four, when Sheldon and Keith does arrive, it's clearly okay. Maybe the championship window is opening to put, listen, a guy that had great success and won a Calder Cup with the Marlies and the junior successes, but the reason it felt like he was being installed is because he and Kyle Dubas shared a brain, not because he had the bona fides to lead a team to the Stanley Cup. It's just in retrospect, in the moment. Again, this is not, no, inside, this is not revisionist history for me, 'cause I had the same take of the time. It's like, wait, why is this guy the guy when you're supposed to be in a winning mode now? This is not a, hey, we're starting from the ground up here and you're gonna grow with these young players that you knew, I mean, part of the appeal was too, that he knew some of the graduates from that Marlies team, including William Nielander, that was a team that was ready to win right away, and maybe Sheldon Keefe was going, you caught lightning in a bottle, but the more likely coaching trajectory is building the reps and then eventually figuring out what it takes to win a Stanley Cup. I mean, one of the guys that they're gonna probably be looking at is the next side. Coach Craig Barube perhaps not exactly fitting that mold, although you did have a previous opportunity ever so briefly with Philly before you got the job in St. Louis. - So I think there's a couple really, really interesting things there. The biggest one is that I think you set Sheldon Keefe up for failure by, and we again sometimes think of this as too hard and fast to rule, but generally speaking, and this goes for all sports, it's a pendulum. You got your dictator, you got your players coach. Okay, oh, oh, too loose and free in here, get the disciplinarian back in. Uh oh, there's a mutiny, get the players coach back in here, and Sheldon Keefe was never gonna be a players coach. I think he's a little more new school than Mike Babcock, but I don't know, there's a lot of room between Mike Babcock and a players coach, okay? And I think that you put him in a position to be a guy he wasn't early on, and that just sets you up for such a poor start to your tenure. The other part of it with the experience, and I hear what you're saying, and I don't disagree with it, but I think the type of guy you're looking at then is a like, hey, friend of the show, we have mom from time to time. Would you have felt different? Would the Leafs be in a better spot today if it was a Bruce Boudreau type? Somebody who has the Bonafide's, but I also think that I don't know that similar post-season track record, right? But this is a guy who's done it, and the league, and if you're above leaf of learning lessons and you take one thing from that, that is the type of bucket you'd be pulling from. If you're not gonna go with the Sheldon Keefe backpack, if you're looking to swing the other way, that's what it looks like. And I just don't know that we're, again, what were the problems here? It was too loose and free. Everybody was too comfortable and happy. That, like, I have a lot of time for Boudreau, but does it sound like getting people less happy? Like, that's not his MO at all. I don't know that that was the coach you needed in that spot, and I don't mean to make it about one guy, but I think when we think of players' coach, he is, for a lot of people, the avatar that comes to mind. Yeah, honestly, it would have in that moment felt like a Mike Babcock type, but obviously he'd run his course. You needed somebody who could throw some rings on the table, and clearly that'll be the number one appeal of Craig Baroube if he's involved in the coaching search, which certainly feels like he will be, despite, yeah. The rest of the season's in St. Louis not quite looking like the first one there where they were-- - Is he playing for a while. - Is he bringing a team bidding team with him? - Yeah, that-- - Let me just have a St. Louis goalie here, Joel. - Friend in Shanahan. He's now all of a sudden on the hot seat. After, I think rightly, boy, it's put yourself in that moment where you got salute gate happening and the country club atmosphere and like the 18-wheeler and the Peter Horacek and to just be the adult that says this is horrific and nobody wants this, and you know what? If there's ever gonna be a fan base that could withstand some pain for a little bit, it's the one that fills the building no matter what's happening on the ice and have been for 50 years. So enough, let's lose and let's be patient, which was an incredible virtue and something we hadn't seen in this market. - It turns out that there are diminishing returns on that. Like he was just too patient. He overdid it with the patience and the timing stuff. Boy, firing Kyle Dubas when you wanted to hire or when you wanted to extend him and in that moment, in an off-season, where Pivot, if Kyle Dubas had still been in place, might have actually occurred, I think there's a less certainty that Brendan Shanahan will be dismissed this week than Sheldon Keefe because it doesn't get higher than Sheldon Keefe clearly being fired before his extension, by the way, even kicks in, he's got a two-year extension, which he hasn't even hit yet. - Nobody likes to get fired, but if there was a good way, having an extension that is yet to kick in. - But I think if, and I would hope that after some introspection, Brendan Shanahan would agree with this, that like what made him such a breath of fresh air at the outset was, if it doesn't turn around, his eventual undoing, and if he's fired, it was his eventual undoing that, yes, correct. This market and this organization, this franchise needed to be patient. They needed more patience. But at a certain point, you keep doing the same old thing with any major change, and you deserve what you got here over the last eight years. - Yeah, I mean, you look at it, there are so many kind of touch point moments, but they all happened three, four years ago. I mean, obviously, as you mentioned, there was the Dubas, what happened last year, but the ripples of that are barely being felt right now, like to your point, maybe what could have happened, but in terms of the true living, like, you know, I have my quibbles about signing John Klingberg, but I don't think anybody sits here and goes, this was a failing on brad true living as part. It's like, no, we can have that conversation in a couple of years. But yeah, with the Shanahan, you wanted to be patient. You wanted there to be a structure to an org. You wanted to build, oh, we said that seaward a lot with Boston culture. You want to build that up here. And I think there was a belief that you couldn't have the constant upheaval 'cause you wanted them to build something organically within. And what they built is a team that's lost in the first round a whole bunch of years. Now, I put my hand up, yes. The game sevens of it all, the coin flip nature, sure. But at a certain point in time, you can't just continue to do the same thing. I think the, it all comes back to what you saw last season in terms of the Dubas and the indecision there and what was happening, that feels like we are forever gonna be talking, 'cause whatever happens this off season and I don't think it's nothing, you know, aside from Sheldon Keat, I think there will be roster changes to this team that matter, not just Tyler Bertuzzi, not being back. But it'll be impossible to compare, let's just say it's a Mitch Marner trade that everyone thinks is at the very least gonna be discussed this off season, that it's impossible to compare it to what could have been last year before a no move kicked in. It's just, it was so odd to be so patient, so patient, so patient. And then, again, we don't need to relitigate it, but whether you feel you were pushed into a spot where you could no longer be or the dam just broke and you needed to move to be so patient to then at the most crucial time say that we're moving on, when it wasn't necessarily what you wanted to do, just all goes back to how strange the handle last season was. - All right, let's talk more about Mitch Marner, who's going to occupy a lot of the space in the next hour, I think, with a couple of insiders. He controls his destiny entirely with the full no move clause, which you rightly point out, only kicked in last off season. And there was a brief window there where you could have traded him free and clear, but you were also, at the same time, negotiating an extension with a guy that we assume is on pretty good terms with Mitch Marner and the face of the franchise and the most important player in the history of the franchise in Austin Matthews, so I don't know how that would have changed things. - That cannot be added as a caveat enough to those potential things, sir. - So what happens to Mitch Marner now? Like, I think, so the thing that we thought might be in the middle of game four, the image of this postseason run and perhaps the lasting image of Mitch Marner, of him throwing the gloves is now the lead item. As we head into the off season, controls his entire destiny. They did the thing that they could do with Mitch Marner last year with William Kneelander's just played it into the season, then he played his way into the extension that was forthcoming. It's hard, like, it's impossible to imagine that same scenario playing out, partly because it doesn't matter how well Mitch Marner played during the regular season. Does anyone question that if they did that, then Mitch Marner wouldn't rattle off a quadrillion points? - Well, that's what I was gonna say is what would the, like, would it have to be Gretzky 200 point season? - It doesn't, but even that. - Where people go, okay, I guess, play them. Who cares? Who cares? - No, that's the point I'm making is who cares. It would have to be something that is unattainable by mere mortals. - Yeah, so unless you're just taking a hard right turn and you do not care about the market, like, and the way they perceive the player, and you are the most hardcore, I don't care about anything other than my own beliefs to the wall with this court, till death do us part. The conversation has to at least be had with Mitch Marner. And if the conversation is had, I'm now to the point where how does he not acquiesce because the idea for him, unless, I mean, I guess there's one scenario where it works out for him that he says, screw you, I negotiated this in good faith and I'll play this out. And if I leave in free agency, that's the deal. And then they have the ultimate success next post season, then you win, Mitch Marner, you win. But the more likely scenario is that if you're impacted by outside forces, seems pretty clear that he is, that it's not going to manifest itself into your best version of yourself. Again, in the next post season, and instead you're gonna depart as, instead of getting to play for your hometown team and being this incredible find and the correct pick at that position in the first round, you're gonna be viewed as one of the more hated beliefs like in recent memory. I would, you know, we talk a lot about the Paul McLean, demons under their bed, demon, and that's like the greatest thing that came out of that. Could you imagine being a fly on the wall for either the exit meeting where that's discussed, or quite frankly, the meeting with his agent and his inner circle where that's discussed. 'Cause, you know, you can wanna poo poo that as a thought and oh, I just wanna play hockey, but no, now the rubber really meets the road. There is a real world where it ends incredibly, with a ton of animosity. And that is something that this player has to take into account because he cares about winning and he cares about it all, but he cares about doing it as a member of the Toronto Maple Leafs and how he's viewed here. And I do think that there is some world where he can see that it's best for him to maybe be open to moving on, but I also think what's more likely than not is he's gonna wanna play it out and say, if they're gonna send me somewhere, I'm gonna pick my spot. And why wouldn't I just do that as a free agent? That is what I honestly think is the most likely way this plays out. - What an awkward season that could be for Mitch Marner. And especially if that conversation is explicitly had within this offseason, which is hard to imagine it won't. Like clearly no extension is coming in this offseason. - Let me put it this way. It is very much too comfortable in a country club environment. If that conversation is not explicitly had this offseason with him, then very much all the country club stuff were right back to there. - Yeah, you're right, it's a great point. - All right, time now for the Wake and Rake presented by Sports Interaction, your home grown sports book, 19 plus bet responsibly. Yeah, you may be surprised to learn that the Stanley Cup playoffs they continue without the Toronto Maple Leafs. News to me. (laughs) Two Atlantic division rivals with a rematch of their first round series that didn't go the way the first round series against the Leafs ultimately went. The Bruins did blow a 3-1 series lead to the Florida Panthers in last year's opening round and there were a bunch of goals scored in that series. In game one tonight in Florida, the Panthers are favored after sitting on their laurels for quite a while. - 1.75, the Bruins plus 1.45, the total is five and a half, but the under is where you pay the juice at minus 1.25, the over 1.05 plus 1.05. - Yeah, let's go over, it'd be very leafy for Jeremy Swaven to just turn into, oh, I don't know the guy who played the Panthers on the first round last year at various points in times. I think Boston's gonna be a little other structure. Panthers are gonna be ready to really kind of put their foot down on this series. So over, like you said, five and a half is the total, you get a plus 1.05, that's what I'm liking tonight. - Yeah, if recent history is any indication, and I guess Jeremy Swaven only started one of those seven games, but even in game seven, there's a lot of goals in that one, including an overtime winner for the Florida Panthers. There are a lot of goals in this series. Despite the fact that both play a pretty sound defensive game, especially in the postseason, I do like the over as well in that hockey game. And that was the Wakenrake presented by Sports Interaction, your homegrown Sportsbook 19 plus bet responsibly. When we come back, what does the future hold for Mitch Marner? Frank Cerebelli, president of hockey content at dailyfaceoff.com next. As the fan morning show continues, Ben Anis, Brent Gunning, Sportsnet 590, the fan.
