[MUSIC PLAYING] Morning, shows. 4, 7, 5, 9, and then it's Brent Gunning. This is it. First day of the unofficial start of summer. Brent, how's it going? Yeah, get ready for a cold, long, dark summer ahead of all of us. God, it's just sick and tired of doing this show. But tradition unlike any other. You guys think it's as alien as and all that? No, no, no. It's me getting paid to do therapy for three hours. Most people have to pay for it. I'm going to get paid to do it for the next three hours here. All right, so here are the gory details, as you well know. But it's an entree into this conversation. This edition of the Toronto Maple Leafs, the Austin Matthews version dropping to 0 and 5 in game 7s, 0 and 6 in winner take all playoff games. It dropped to 1 and 8 in postseason series. They've now gone 17 consecutive playoff games scoring three or fewer goals. And they only scored the three once. So it's really 16 of 17 scoring two or fewer. And they head into an offseason where there's real intrigue. Starting the very top, including team president Brendan Chan-Hann, obviously the head coach who will speak today, by the way, and there's no lack of intrigue there, as the players and the coach are going to speak today. And then some executives or management types, we don't know exactly who will speak on Thursday this week. Let's start with the game though. Yeah, itself. It happening on Saturday feels like a million years ago. What an insane series from a story perspective. I said it was the series, like it was the insider series, really start to finish. When it came to William Nylander, now I'm missing a game for eight years. And then missing game one of the playoffs. Of course. Matthews gets hurt for a couple of elimination games. Why not? And then they win on the strength of Joe Wall emerging as a real challenger to Jeremy Swamin. Then he gets hurt, trying to make it just save. Like you can't write this stuff. It's funny how you like that. You can't write this stuff. Point one on the clock. And I talked to a lot of people before game seven. And they're like, "Oh man, it's a shame that they allowed that goal." I was like, "What do you care?" His game was over, they just dropped the pocket. It turns out that might have been the defining moment of the series 'cause unable to go in game seven. And yeah, Leafs only scored once. And that's the big conversation we're gonna have today, but the team that has all the guys that are supposed to score that didn't. But you can't tell me that Joe's of Wall doesn't have a better shot at saving the two goals that the Bruins scored in that hockey game. The one in regulation, a minute 20 after Nylander gives the Leafs the lead for a brief blimmer. Leaf fans think it might be different. And then in overtime, the set play off the endboards right to the stick of David Pasternak after being called out by his head coach ends the series and sends the Bruins to Florida Brent. - Yeah. - How you feeling today? - Yeah, pain. It just sucks. I'm so sick and tired of this. It felt like this year, it felt like it was gonna be no different in all. And it felt like that didn't matter for a lot of it, right? How much of the build up, even heading into the post season was okay, you know, you're headed up against Boston. It did feel like a sea change is coming short of a big run here. And then the series starts the way it does. You mentioned the Nylander injury of it all. And then Matthew's drops like a fly in the middle of it. And you say, okay, like certainly not the Leafs year, but like this team is want to do. The Godfather III of hockey teams, like just when you're out, they suck you back in. They pull it back to 3-1. You have your hero and your savior, Joe Wall. He can't go. And I don't know that the game's any different if it's Joe Wall over Samsonov. I don't know that the Leafs play any different if it's Joe Wall over Samsonov, but it's just so leafy to have the guy that gave you some hope and him just disappear right before a game- - Without warning. - Without warning. Of course, why would there be- - Now, Ilya, Samsonov had warning, but we had no warning. Like it was, I don't know how you received the news, but yeah, I was texting with my dad and some other people in my life about, hey, all Austin Matthews availability and didn't look good and that it did look good. And all the insiders sending off their tweets and then this Joe Wall stuff, I don't know where the genesis was for you. But I think it was Nick Kiprios's tweet that first found its way to me. I was like, come on, what are we talking about here? That was, I feel like five o'clock. Game started eight. It was like, only a couple hours away from Puck drop when we're talking about the number one reason. I mean, we went on the fan pre-game show on Thursday from Scotiabank Arena before game six. I think both of our takes was like, Joe Wall was the number one reason to believe things might be different. The Leafs had a chance to come back in that series. He was spectacular, almost has the shutout on Thursday in game six. And then for that rug to be pulled right from out and under you in game seven, it's just impossible. The 69 goal scorer leaves, again, two elimination games, but they win them miraculously. William Nieland, or the 40 goal man, near 100 point man, misses the first three games of the series. And then he's spectacular when he comes back, scores three goals. I mean, he missed three games in the series. He was the least leading goal scorer also. Again, the number one topic of the day is gonna be the Leafs lack of scoring. He scores three goals, including the only one they score in game seven assisted by Austin Matthews. But yeah, Joe Wall, the number one reason to believe things are gonna be different. Hours before puck drop, the biggest game this season. And in retrospect, depending on how this off season goes, maybe the biggest to this point in this course history, not attended by the one guy you needed. It felt like to win it. Yeah, it is just another wrinkle. You know, we talk all the time about, we had a lot of refrendoms for this season of, are the Leafs a normal team right now? Let's just park that forever. No, this doesn't happen to a normal team. I'm sorry, like I know injury bugs happen. We don't find out right before a game seven that the goalie that's given you hope. And then just add one more fun little wrinkle into it. It's Matthews and it's Nieland, and they connect. And you know, I obviously, this will shock all of you. It's a swirl of emotions throughout that game. I believe, I don't believe, I think they'll never score. I think they're gonna score 10. I think the power play looks good all of a sudden. And then you see Marner, or sorry, definitely not him. Then you see Matthews and Nieland, or have their moment. And you think, wow, that's it. You got to play lockdown hockey for 10 minutes. That hasn't been the hard part for this team in this series. That is just another part of the frustration of it all. I really did think, and God, I've shame on me for believing never again. I can't wait to see you next year when I'm believing again. But I really did think it was going to be different when Matthews hooks up with Nieland or, and the puck goes in the back of the net, and they're up one with 10 minutes left. I really felt it was going to be different. And then you didn't even get to bask in that for, it wouldn't have been any better if Lynn told them scores in the dying seconds. Like that would have been just as big of a gut punch. - Not even worse. - I didn't get to live for 30 seconds. - No, you did, the minute's running. - Okay, you know what I mean. I didn't get to live in that for longer than a minute, 20. - No. - And it's just so leafy it hurts. Then who, who assists on the Lampasland home goal? - Yes, JBR. - Oh, and, and also Justin Brazo for, for, for Marley heaven. Heaven forbid the big Goluf not factor in on a series tying goal. Heaven forbid like every single part of this from a knife twisting and look self inflicted. Like I'm not going to sit here and say the Leafs deserved a better fate throughout this series. I don't know, we're not like, but at every turn, this series and it's, they've set a very high bar in this Matthews era. But this series truly is leafy as it gets. The pulling you back in, the false hope, the million different storylines. The stars giving you moments, but not giving you enough. It's just so leafy it hurts. - Yeah, we're going to talk about the real reasons the Leafs lost the series and the real reasons why you would think there is massive change coming. But I do want to talk about the stuff that is leafy and the ephemeral and like you can't quite touch it and the cursed of it all. Because I mean, it was true before, but I mean, the things were running down here. The evidence is overwhelming. This is the most cursed franchise in North American pro sports, okay? I got it. So the way I define cursed is it's not like, oh, you know, pills lost for consecutive Super Bowls. It's pretty bad. - Yeah. - But they got to the Super Bowl. And there was only one of those that they had a real chance to win, right? To me, cursed is where you get to these like coin flip. There's no more coin flip than a winner take all game. A game seven or a game five like we had in the bubble. - In overtime. - Like there's no more coin flip. Like that's as coin flip in the most random sport of all. Hockey. I mean, if you want to go back beyond this core, of course, yeah, there's the game seven, 2013. It's seven consecutive winner take all games that this franchise has lost. It's one of like four franchises in the history of this sport that has not played a single game in the month of June because they haven't made a Stanley Cup final since 1967. You can't, again, you can't write what we just saw. A team that knew the only thing that mattered was the postseason to have this incredible regular season. Now they didn't win the Atlantic Division, but you had the 69 goal season from Austin Matthews and you had William Kneelander asserting himself as this guy that was worth the extension that he received in the season. And then after a little like 10 game blip looked again, like William Kneelander, not by the end of the season, it was slumping a little bit, but for both of those guys to get hurt during the most important time of the year. And then again, like there is, I just, I don't know how you can watch this team over, I mean, my lifetime, so I'm 40 years old. You can go beyond that if you want. I don't know how you can watch this team night in night out and not say that, yeah, they're cursed. Like they, again, there are real reasons why they lost this series in this hockey game and they were underdogs against the Boston Bruins. Has to be, yeah, you know, we'll talk about the real stuff, okay? And that's important. Come on, there's also seven consecutive winner take all games that they've lost. Just factually, that's his coin flip, you flip a coin, they just continue to flip the coin tails. - Yeah, and they will continue to flip it. I have no reason that this should turn around because at this point, if you are out there and you do not believe the ghosts in goblins or kicking the hockey gods dog has happened with this franchise, I don't know what to tell you. You're the lose series all the time. There's been terrible franchises in the lose series all the time. You mentioned that the Buffalo Bills lost four straight in the Super Bowl. They had to have postseason success in giving people moments of hope and belief to get there. All the hope and belief we've had is from a great regular season and literally won John Tavares goal. That's it. That is all the hope and belief you have ever been able to muster. And then when you go back to it again, the injury stuff is where I think the curse lies this year. It comes out in a different way every year. Normally and again, I also don't know how you can look at the two guys that assist on the game tying goal. And don't look at that as the hockey gods just wanting to kick more sand in the Leafs eye. Could've been anybody. No, it has to be arguably the two worst or least effective forwards on the Bruins and they gotta find a way to get in on the game tying goal. I refuse to believe a world where this stuff doesn't exist. The franchise is cursed. I cannot hear it. And again, it's not 'cause they lost. But if Joe Wall, guess what? If Joe Wall plays in these batting game seven, that's not the franchise being cursed, okay? Joe Wall not playing because of, and I'm, God, I should have looked it up. I forget who it was. It was a very careless dump into the corner right before Boston kind of got that chance at the end and then ultimately scored on the goal that hurt Joe Wall. And, oh, God, I, it's like, in my head, I feel like it's Newlander. I don't want to throw that out there, but I guess I just did. But I see that stuff and it's a careless mistake in the dying moments of a two nothing game. - Right. - That, again, didn't cost you, but it had to throw one more kind of log on the curse fire. - Yeah, and again, there's logical reasons. Like, listen, looking, projecting ahead and what the Maple Leafs do in goal. I mean, this is kind of the Joe Wall experience that he gets hurt a lot. So like, that on its own, it's like, well, how can you say that's a curse? Like, that's the guy that missed multiple months this season because of a high ankle sprain got hurt again. Okay, I guess. Come on, point one on the clock in game six, exact four game seven. Come on. - Half a rune bumps into him, not curse, par for the course. - That, curse, curse, curse, curse, curse. It's just ridiculous. Yeah, so we got some more details on the actual nature of the injury. - Yeah, that's where I wanted to go. - I mean, boy, when the migraines are affecting your vision, you're saying like, I, I couldn't see. You know, no, yeah, he should have played through the, like, he should have played through the thing that had his ability to see. - Hey, guys. - But no, enough. - Guys, sure. - Which one needs to see? - Which net are you shooting at? Well, there's only one. Oh, okay, I'll pick the middle then. Yeah, no. - Yeah, no. - That's, it's harrowing stuff. Like, these are the stories. This is what you hear during playoff time. And I think we all kind of expected it. If I was knee-lander, I would have been shouting it. Like, the idea, and again, like, I understand how all this works. The team keeps it quiet. Everybody toes the line at playoff time regarding injuries and secrecy and all of that. But God, if I was knee-lander, especially given some of the conversations right off the hop of what happened there, I would have been screaming from the rooftops. I literally can't see. So yeah, I don't, I don't, maybe him scoring in the game removes the, maybe him scoring in the game kind of removes this from people. But I also don't think that comes across as him rushing to the excuse or anything along those lines. I think that was something we all wanted to know. We all wanted clarity on. - No, at this point, when you're answering a question at this point, it's not excuse making. It's like, hey, we want clarity. You played. We all understand everybody's playing with something. But yeah, there's no targeting now that it's the off season. We didn't hear explicitly from Austin Matthews. We'll see if that comes out today in his final media availability, which you can hear on Sportsnet 590, the fan. - It is funny. Like, I don't think knee-lander is making excuses, but I do feel a type of way in a positive way that Matthews is like, who cares? Yeah, it's hurt, whatever. We lost. Don't care. - Yeah. - Again, it's all going to come out. The hockey, you know, the hockey insiders will know. It's hard to find out during the playoffs, but especially now that there is no, and there's no reason for them to keep this a secret. I can't kind of-- - I think even some of the speculation that some of the insiders didn't feel as comfortable talking about while the series was happening and have now said that, hey, it looks like there was an injury that took place during game four, maybe as the result of Austin Matthews playing through an illness. And that it was a double-edged sword there, that it was illness and injury, and they might have been related in the one game that he became more injured because he was ill in that game. I think that's probably fair to say, but what this illness was that could have hurt his ability to stay healthy from a physical standpoint, like I need the epidemiologists on that one. - Yeah, we didn't, I guess we haven't even discussed that he played, right? It was very much a topic of conversation heading into the game, and it was the double whammy. And he gets the assist. He still is yet to score in a game seven. And I don't know if you had these conversations going around, I certainly did of, yeah, gotta be honest, I'll take wall over Matthews. Like, Matthews was the unknown heading in on the broadcast. And it's tough when you're in a position where like, yeah, everybody's listening to your opinion on the matter, Kevin BX and Elliot Friedman, but there's no debate. They won the two previous games without the 69 goal score. They can't score anyways. - Yeah. So you might as well get the goalie who has the higher ceiling upside, there's no debate that you would rather have Matthews than Joseph Wall. And that's no offense to Austin Matthews. - No, no, you'd also rather, if you could go over the medicals and be assured that both guys were gonna be 100%, I'd rather have Austin Matthews. If that's the choice, but that's not the choice. And you saw it and I'm not saying this is, you know, I mean, he just clearly wasn't at 100%. I think that was a gutsy effort from Matthews to play in that game, he gets the assist. Yeah, you need them to score big goals and big moments, you got it at a knee-lander there. But yeah, I thought it was, I just thought it was interesting that the two players there, the two guys that we've been openly speculating about their injuries at various parts of the series took exact opposite tax in terms how to go. But I don't actually think it means anything, but I do think it's interesting. - Okay, so two things can be true here. The Leafs and Bruins played a very close series and there was an impressiveness to the Leafs without some key cogs forced the game seven, okay? And it was coin flip when you're talking about game seven, but also that it can't possibly continue this way. One for 21 on the power play, Matthews, Marner Tavares, each with one goal. Marner watching David Pasternak skate by him, Morgan Riley watching David Pasternak go by him, Ilya Sampsonov watching the David Pasternak go by him. - Do they say about that? - Well, Morgan Riley and Mitch Marner didn't speak in the aftermath on Saturday. - We will hear from them today. It'll be really interesting to hear what Mitch Marner says, but yeah, okay, so enough, we did the ghost talk, which you have to talk about, and you don't throw your hands up because you only get into ghost conversations when you get to a game seven. And rightly, the Maple Leafs won against the lightning in six games. - Yeah, last year, you know what else? - They knew the ghost was waiting up their house. - You're allowed to just be way better than the opposition. And maybe that happens during the regular season and you assure yourself all my advantage, which hasn't exactly been an advantage, although that losing streak this postseason 'cause of your wall. - But yeah, you're allowed to, for a Bruins team that up and down the lineup, and I think we're gonna find out here in the second round against the Panthers, is not some world-beating team. You're allowed to have your $40 million of high-priced forward talent just blow the opposition out of the water. And if this was a series in which the Maple Leafs did score five goals a game against a very stout Bruins team, but their defensive issues, their goaltending, their blue line hurt them to the degree that they lost the series, I think even then we're having a different conversation. Like the Leafs' power play goes 50%, and they still lose the series. It's like, well, I mean, proof of concept was, indeed Brad for Living said that we're gonna score more this postseason, they did that, but he forgot about the other half of the hockey game. No, the one thing that they're supposed to do, they never do, they don't do it. They go one for 21 on the power play. So yes, the ghost, the curse, the coin flip, time and time again, we had that conversation, now the tangible stuff, which is the team that was the second highest scoring in the regular season. - Six best power play. - Had the six best power play at one point in February who didn't think that was the best power play going and they were second in the National Hockey League at that point too, went one for 21 and not just one for 21, looked like they were a power play that was one for 21, creating absolutely nothing. And for that reason and that reason alone, they're headed home. - Yeah, I mean, yeah, you look at the power play if they're just half decent, forget transcendent, forget Euler's Ask, just half decent, we're talking about a different series. And this is where-- - Yeah, they went to overtime in game seven. - This is where the body of work to this point though, bumps up against this series. And I'm not saying you're wrong, and this is where the injuries are not excuses. But if you're gonna talk about the least power play, we have to talk about the fact that the two best power play players on the team, just in terms of scoring power play goals, miss half of this series when you add it all up together in Newlander and Matthews. Those are the two guys that, yeah, Mitch Marner is a tremendous power play player. Is he gonna pass it into the net or is he gonna get it to one of those guys? John Tavares, the washed king, which one is it? Is he supposed to dominate on the power play or is he cooked and is $11 million as a waste? I'm being a little tongue-in-cheek here, but you have to, when you look at the least power play struggles, in this series specifically, you cannot paper over the fact that Newlander missed the first three games and Matthews missed basically the last half of the series. It doesn't mean you throw away everything that you saw, the body of work, and I'm not talking regular season, I'm talking playoffs past where you've had healthy versions of those guys. But I think if you're going to take a hard judgment, and I'm not saying anybody's wrong to, you also, you can't just throw that in as yeah, but, not yeah, but. It's the league's best goal scorer and the least second best power play goal scorer. If the issue is scoring on the power play and they don't have those two guys, yeah, it's gonna hamper now. Doesn't mean you can't ask more of Mitch Marner. I'm sure we'll have plenty of time in the show today to talk about asking more of Mitch Marner. Doesn't mean you can't ask more from Tavares and it certainly doesn't mean you can't ask more from Riley. But I do think if you're going to talk about how much of a death spiral that power play was in this series, and it was for the last part of the regular season as well, you can't just paper over that. That can't be just a yeah, and no, that's a massive crux of the issue here is that those two guys are supposed to be dominant and they were hurt or sick or unhealthy, or just performing poorly heading into the postseason as well. Like let me throw that in there as well. Yeah, I mean, and that's, there's no excuses there. They were all in the lineup, if not healthy, 'cause Austin Matthews wasn't healthy for game four, but first two periods of game four were the chance to even up the series, they had everybody in the lineup. Sheldon Keefe, I think had the pull quote from Saturday that just about everybody jumped on talking about those two home games with the series tied at once coming back to Toronto. They're a very structured team. You know, they're, they do a very good job in the neutral zone and they protect their net as well or better than most, most any team in the NHL. And there was their work attempt to do that. You know, they were tempted to do that. It gets, you know, it's very evident. Teams play the least, they, they, they set up the game for the least to beat themselves. And he thought they did that in games three and four. And who's to argue? I mean, if there is one lasting takeaway from this era of Leafsdom, and we'll see how different it is in 24, 25, it is exactly that. I mean, we saw it in, in game six on Thursday and the Leafs didn't do it, or the Bruins were like happy to just sit back and relax and wait for the Leafs to commit the brutal turnover, the resulted in the breakaway or the two on one, the broke open the game for the Boston Bruins, but that's what happened in games three and four. And to me, that's, yeah, that's, that's the sound bite. That's the Paul McLean, that's, that's it. That's the, this Leafs team beat itself more often than not over these eight seasons. - Yeah, I think you're, I think he has spot on there. If only he was in any position to have done something about this during the last handful of years. That is a, God, I mean, we'll obviously have a ton of time this week to talk about Sheldon Key's future, lack thereof. It's like, God, that was a dead man walking quote. If I have ever heard one talking about the Leafs as though he is no longer there, teams have put themselves in a position to beat the Leafs or to let the Leafs beat themselves. Yeah, I think that the structure part is, this is also what happens when, and I'm not saying that it, well, plenty of time for all these referendums this week, but it's like, this is what happens when you build your team around high, high end talent that you want to go and take advantage and be creative. And there's not a problem with that, but it also goes back to the two team thing that we've talked about here, of the Leafs have to or want to play one way when it's a Matthews line or a Marner line or a Neelander line for that matter. And then we saw it in the Taylor and the games they won in this series. They play a completely different game when you strip one of those pieces away and you have much more of a kind of just north south playoff style hockey game. It's incredibly frustrating. And yeah, I think that that, I think there is a road, obviously, where you can play that way with talent, but you have to shackle the talent to a certain extent. And I think that that has always been the kind of push and pull here. - So now that we're talking about head coaching, and yeah, we'll delve deeper into the future of Sheldon Keefe. I think everybody, including Sheldon himself, understands the situation here. I am a little bit surprised that he's going to take to a live microphone today. - Can I give you my theory on that? - Okay. - The team's owned by two media companies. It's like, that's great fodder, honestly. Like I think about it. - Sure. - It's like, I really do think if this is just like, old school, it's like, eh, you're done, like go away. - There, I am thrilled, he's going to take the mic. I have a ton of questions, I'd like to hear answered. And quite honestly, it always makes more sense for me to do it this way, especially if you've already made up your mind. We should want answers. And once the coach, yeah, there are some world where he is unshackled by the team or whatever and really tells his truth. But I think Sheldon Keith wants another job. So I think that this is the best mode you're going to get. I have no problem with it. But yeah, I did think it was curious that quite honestly, he was scheduled to talk today. Yeah, I mean, if you want to make a media spectacle of it, don't have it at 11 o'clock on a weekday. Like, set it up prime time, seven o'clock tonight, Sheldon Keith taken to the microphone. - Forget game one, Panthers, Bruins, actually-- - If you think anybody in this market is all that interested in that series? - No, no, no, but I'm just like, I actually, I'm kind of wouldn't like that as a direct thumb to the NHL's eye. - Oh, yeah. In the middle of the first period, too. Did that not like right at puck drop, like just yet? - Yeah, just like, we now go to a special report. (laughing) - Sheldon Keith giving breathy answers, yeah. - I was talking about the other side of things. - Oh, God. Jim Montgomery, talk to Mike Babcock to get inspiration. (laughing) - And John Cooper. - Sure, sure, sure, but come on, Mike Babcock. - That's John Cooper being like, what? It is my blood right to beat the Leafs in the spring every year. How dare they take that away from me? I gotta get in on this Bruins action. And of course, Babs, God. (laughing) That isn't cursed, that is everybody. I always used to think it was a dubious thing of everybody wanting to get one in on the Leafs and steal every guy off of waivers as a little thumbing their eye. You're not part of the old boys club at Dubas. Clearly had, well, I won't say it had nothing to do with him. Clearly it wasn't just that because this is still the org that everybody loves to get there. I mean, the kachuk of it all, we'll get to, I'm sure. But you throw Babcock into this and yeah, we know how one ceremoniously and whatever, but I don't know, go grind your axe against Columbus when they play a game that matters. When I saw that, it was infuriating. And also, it doesn't work this way. But of course, it feels like Jim Montgomery pulled the right lever, calling out being a pastor. - Well, this is what I wanted to get to next. So I mean, the Babcock thing is just like kind of hilarious. - It's hilarious. - The more you told them, it's like, you'll be fine. - Just get in your kitchen. - You're fine. - Don't worry about it. There's nothing I sleep well tonight. There's nothing I could have done then. There's nothing you could do to screw this up now. - You're okay. Because you have super stars. - Superstars is probably it. - You have super stars that perform in the postseason. Brad Marsha and I already had multiple moments during the postseason. David Pasternak waiting for his and was, boy, it's all grating on the scale. But I think we can all agree, like lightly called out by his head coach after game six. And I said he needed to be better, didn't walk it back. - And guess what, David Pasternak agreed. - He scored the game seven over time winner. And then after the game was asked about his coach's reaction to him, they said, yeah, like you reversed the roles. I would have done the same thing. Wasn't good enough? Guess what? I was better than that. And I'm the sole reason why this team is moving on after the set play and the beautiful finish somehow finding room between Ilya Samsonov's pad and the post freezing the clock in overtime. Can you imagine a world in which that narrative played itself out in Toronto? - Again, like lightly called out, okay. And if and when Sheldon Keefe is- - Only with one player. - Is summarily dismissed this season. To me, that'll be the last thing thought I have. And not that you're gonna go out and get a Mike Keenan, but the holy cow, like we can't have any criticism of the star players on this team. There can't be any accountability for these highly priced forwards because look at the teams that have success. There is that getting in, and it's nobody's like, am I just trying to upset anybody else? And nobody's saying anything that's untrue. Like we could all, this is like, David Pazack scored 60 goals this season before. Wasn't good enough in this series. And the coach said so, said we need more. Not to say that it won't come, but it hasn't come yet. And we need it more. And lo and behold, he's the guy that scores the game seven over time winner. - If there's one leaf, you could say that about. And he has put his hand up and said, yeah, I'm good with it. I need it sometimes. And that's why I'm knee-lander. Like, Keith has not been hesitant to call him out by name when it's been warranted. Obviously, it's a little harder to do that in a series when a guy is coming in off migraines and he was blind earlier in the week. It's a little harder to-- - Yeah, onto the blind guy. - One, it's also tough when you don't need to do it 'cause he won the game single handedly for you in game six and puts you up in game seven when you should have just held on. But knee-lander's the one guy who you can easily see him doing that. He has done that with Tavares. It doesn't, we don't give him credit for that because I don't know how that translates to binary in Tavares' brain. But he has been said, we need more from John. I actually think it was, if you did a compare and contrast with the quotes, it'd be jarring how many of the words were exactly the same of what you saw from Pasternak, or sorry, Montgomery said about Pasternak versus what. But there's two guys that they don't say that about. One of them is Austin Matthews. And generally speaking, the lulls are few and far between. So it's hard to say, where are all the days where Keith has just taken Matthews to task. Now, there is an element of take the best player to task and nobody else can question when they're called out. - I mean, that's the David Pasternak. - Well, but it was also warranted. It's pretty hard to call out Austin Matthews in a series when he won you a game single handedly and then stop playing in the series a game later, or a game in two periods later. It's pretty hard to call him out. There's one guy that Keith could have called out in this series. You tell me if you think it was good. You see where I'm going with this. It's Mitch Marner. Do you think that was gonna get you a better version of that player? - I love the idea of sitting here and going, accountability, accountability. There is also an element and this is why we talk about roster construction and it's all looped in together. But I don't know that the right way to get the best out of Mitch Marner is to call him out in the media and saying Mitch needs to give us more. Do you think that would have worked? I personally don't. - Probably not, but I mean, we'll never know. They can't get any worse than where it is right now. And then his future hanging in the balance. I mean, that's going to be a huge part of today's show, which we haven't gotten to yet, but we will. What's next with this team? I think the head coaching stuff, that's obvious, but I mean, who is the next guy to take over? - Yeah. - What happens with Brendan Shanahan? And specifically, what happens with Mitch Marner? Controlling his whole destiny with a full no move clause. - Yeah, just one more thing on Keith and again, we're gonna bounce all around today. But I am not a huge Baroobay guy. Like we all saw the Bissonette stuff again. We'll kind of catch everybody up as we go along here. But I am not a guy pounding the table for Craig Baroobay. I've wondered aloud why he was the guy everyone was clamoring for. I mean, I can put two and two together, I understand, but it's not bitten for me. But the video, I don't know if you've seen it making the rounds of the cut of Sheldon Keefe's pregame speech right into Craig Baroobee's pregame seats from game seven of, and again, you got to know your team, you got to know what people respond to, but Sheldon Keefe is there. God, like he's got a bull, it was weird, I didn't see it, but it felt like he had a bowl of orange slices in his hand going, just get out there and have fun. Enjoy the moment, appreciate it. And again, he's got to know his team, if that's, I certainly would have felt better about the team losing that game seven. If I saw the Craig Baroobay speech from game seven before the Stanley Cup final against the Bruins going, we are champions, there's no doubt in his mind that they were gonna win that game. And again, different strokes, I don't think the Leafs lost that game 'cause Sheldon Keefe didn't give a pump-up speech, but even me, who is not the biggest guy clamoring for Baroobay, impossible to watch those two moments and not go, God, could you subdomim right before the game though, would it have been different? - Can't get any worse, again, we're just adding a deer here. We're talking about this team having the same number of postseason series victories over the last 20 years as the Seattle Kraken who played their first season in 2021. - Okay, so good stuff. Bear naked ladies, the big racket will be performing sobe stadium on June 27th. To celebrate, we're giving away tickets to enter, all you have to do is tune into episodes of the Fan Morning Show, listen for the codeword, then you text that codeword to 5.95.90. Today's codeword is one week text, one week to 5.95.90, right now for your chance to win. We're giving away another pair of tickets tomorrow, but if you don't win with us, you can secure your tickets at ticketmaster.ca. All right, when we come back, we'll call it Cleanser, with the not at all frustrating Toronto Blue Jays. - Great. - Who scored a bunch of runs, not the issue yesterday. The guy making his first start of the season on the mound was the issue and the bullpen, which is performing like one of the worst in Major League Baseball. That and more next as the Fan Morning Show continues Ben Annis, Brent Gunning, sports net 5.90 to Fan. - Hey, it's Aelish for a fire. - And I'm Justin Cusbury. - Join us as we discuss the most important sports stories of the day and tee up the biggest games of the night. - It's the Fan Pregame, 6 p.m. weekdays on sports net, sports net 5.90, the fan, and wherever you get your podcasts. (upbeat music) - Fan Morning Show, sports net 5.90, the fan, Ben Annis, Brent Gunning, Blue Jays are bad and should feel bad. - Yeah. - They're losing two of three to the Washington Nationals who are not abhorrent. - No. - And yeah, the Juan Soto trade is starting to pay dividends there with CJ Abrams who looks like a real player. But the Blue Jays now have lost nine to 12. They're three games under 500. It was a new, it was a remixed version for the Blue Jays. - Yep. - They scored eight. - They scored eight. - The ones and twos, yeah. - They scored eight. That's a lot. For them, that's like a hundred. - Extreme point one day is a runly cow. It's a lot of runs. Eleven's more. And that's how many they gave up. And Alec Minoa making his season debut got off the mat. Like it looked like, who didn't think in that first inning that it was all, it was over. For Alec Minoa before it started. Boba Shat commits the error to start the game. Bass is loaded walking like, here we go. How many guys are gonna get it plunked in the brain and how many runs are gonna cross the plate in this half inning. Turns out just the one. And boy, he looked Alec Minoa like, like the best version of himself at points during those first three innings. And then it just, it all comes apart. And what you get is four innings, six hits, seven runs, six earned, four walks, six strikeouts, which is the encouraging part. And at times that slider looked like the old slider, two home runs, and then the bullpen boy. Missing some key pieces, none more key than Jimmy Garcia, who's still on the roster, not on the injured list, but dealing with a back issue. It's horrible. Eric Swanson, holy cow. What are we doing here? The Blue Jays in fan graphs war from their relief core. 29th in baseball, only ahead of the Tampa Bay Rays, who you're not used to seeing in these terms. But they are the second worst bullpen in all of Major League Baseball, according to fan graphs war. The Minoa of it all though. Yeah, I think that if that is a, that's a Rorschach test for you, the Alec Minoa game. I think that if you were somebody who was predisposed to coming into this, to squinting and seeing if there was something you could build off there, you saw what you needed to see. You just throw away all the other stuff. Are you talking to John Schneider? Because that sounds exactly like what John Schneider said. Yeah, that's exactly what I am. I am, I'm talking to him. I'm also gonna remind John Schneider of his comments before the series and then play back those comments that we just heard for him. I don't know, I don't know what happened in three days in Washington. Must be the most tranquil and serene place in the whole world. Did he go, you know what? Who cares about urgency? Let's just play baseball. But I think that you see the strikeout numbers, you see how it went early on. And that is a guy that you can give another look to, but you cannot treat him as a set part of this rotation. I don't know how you can look at him and say that's our fifth starter. That is a guy trying to find it. And there were moments where he showed you something. Again, six strikeouts, that's not nothing. I think he gets another crack at this, but I also think that you have to be wholly ready to pull the shoot on this again if it's not working. - Yeah, it's a different deal if Yariel Rodriguez is right there ready to bust through that door, like the Kool-Aid man or Ricky Tiedemann, who luckily for him did not suffer a serious injury, but yeah, I don't think you're rushing Ricky Tiedemann up to the major league level. Not a lot of backup plans about him. Francis even is departed this earth. Not really, he's alive. I just, maybe the Francis family is listening. I didn't mean to concern you. No, he, yeah, he's not where he was at one point in the standing of this franchise and now on the injured list. So there's not a lot of backup plans. So you are forced into Alec Manoa every 15. You just close your eyes and cross your fingers and hope that what we saw for the majority of the first three innings is something that he can build upon. And you know, you hope that there was a learning process throughout this game and afterwards, Alec Manoa saying, "I'm not Greg Maddox, "and thank you for clarifying, "that I was trying to be getting confused. "It's too fine, and I just need to fill up the strike zone." Yeah, clearly, man. Like that's been the number one issue for you. It's been the lack of swing and miss, which was not an issue here. And again, the slider was missing bats at times. It's been the ineffectiveness with the walks and hit batters, and like part of that is always gonna be your game, but you can just funnel more pitches towards the strike zone. You got a better shot. Well, just one other thing. It doesn't always work this way. And you know, everyone's different in terms of their process. But you would think that a guy being forced didn't work in quicker than he wants to. And let's just be honest, like Manoa is one of the guys who had a more deliberate routine. You like to stalk around the mound a little bit. It's part of his presence that he had out there at one point in time. You would think that a guy just being forced into rhythm and having to throw would lead to kind of throwing more strikes. You would think it would be beneficial to him. It's kind of proven the opposite since the pitch loss come in though. That was the other thing I kept thinking about though. You would like, does that not make sense that a guy who typically gets himself on a rhythm and likes to walk around and set his own pace that eventually once you got used to the confines of the pitch clock, you would think just getting locked in and doing it quicker would, in theory, lead to throw more strikes, but just hasn't worked that way for him. - No, it hasn't, and it's, I mean, I also go to the one thing that's changed in Major League Baseball since Alec Manoa was good, and it's that you have to throw a pitch, like every 15 seconds. - It's a different deal than what he should be setting him with like an eight-second timer in all of these, like having the batting donut. - Yeah. - Every three seconds he needs to throw a pitch. - Probably not good for the long-term health of his elbow. - Anyways, both ends, thanks right now. Like I said, it's just unquestionably bad. Just numbers are undeniable. I will say, I don't look at it as a whole and think it's one of the major issues with this team. I think like batting order positions are seven nights of the batting order. Is a bigger, those are the seven most important issues with this team? - I agree, yeah. - The pitching staff, a little bit down the ways on the pecking order, yeah. - It looks a lot different when you have Chad Green in there and a healthy Jimmy Garcia and how many guys can you really rely on in any bullpen? And I still think Jordan Romano is quite good. Seems clear though that Eric Swanson needs some time. Well, one, completely out of leverage, which I thought, well, we knew that. I'm not protecting a one-run lead. I don't care if it's the sixth or seventh inning. - I agree. - Like you can't get that guy anywhere near a leverage moment. Maybe it was Friday 'cause that was when Schneider had the urgency cranked up and it's like he got a win. Whereas to Sunday, it's like, well, you know, process. - Yeah, infuriating. - I don't know if there's another I.L. stint in his future or I mean, God forbid, he has one option left, but it seems pretty clear that the splitter that is his number one weapon is batting practice, fastball, can't have him anymore. And then we gotta talk about, I mean, you talk about the urgency and how different the comments are from the manager one day to the next that, hey, it's just made, no big deal. These guys, I believe in the track records, they're gonna turn it around to, hey, Boboshette, your fifth-hole hitter. And then yesterday, he was hitting cleanup, but yeah, it's time now to start swinging the bats. - Maybe that's a little thing though, him getting bounced down to fifth and then he's back up to fourth the next day. But I don't think it is. Part of, and you know, correlation doesn't always equal causation, but we look back at the Bachette getting bumped down to seventh. They didn't put him there for a day and go, all right, you learned your lesson, you're slowly warming your way back up the order, they put him there and put him there until he started to hit. Then he pretty quickly started to hit and he moved back up the order. I understand that I don't know that he got moved down to five as a punishment or a demotion, but if that was part of it, then you gotta make him feel it. It's not just for a day. If you're looking to reignite whatever it was that got bo going last year, and I'm sure there were a myriad of factors, not just that he was hitting seventh, but that was curious to me that you're gonna bum him down, not but I understand guys are coming into the lineup, it's not an apples to apples scenario every single day, but that was a little strange to me. - Yeah, yeah, fourth, fifth, yeah, it was a clear demotion and yeah, John Schneider doesn't care what he does as long as it results in a better chance of winning the baseball game. The most obvious move that needs to be made next year because yeah, you can talk about, and I will talk about Boba Shett at the end of the season. I think he's gonna have Boba Shett type numbers. We've done this before in the aforementioned season in which he was hitting seventh in July, came back by the end of the year, he was Boba Shett, one of the best hitters in all of baseball with an OPS over 800 in 2022. The sample is growing on George Springer being old and washed, okay, we have to be very much open to the possibility that the old George Springer ain't coming back and the position he's in right now, that guy gets the most played appearances at the end of the season. Like, nobody gets more played appearances than George Springer at the tippy top. - Yeah, there's no getting to line up. - It's actually, you know, savor metrics would say it's the three hole. No, it's math and it's gonna be the guy who best plays. - Yeah, it is. I mean, that has to be the next move. And I know this was, hey, Boba Shett said all the right things about his movement throughout the lineup and part of that, it's easier to do when you're under contract for two more years and you understand you're trying to get paid here. But, and he hasn't performed. So he's like, yeah, somebody just got a move. It's me, that's no problem. I can wear that. George Springer, we've seen him take an opposite tag. Maybe not publicly, but like all indications where he wasn't too pleased about being bumped out of the lead off spot last year. But it's tough though. Like, I mean, he can't get any worse for him. He needs somebody at the top of the lineup who gets on base and at this point in the season, Aang George Springer. - Yeah, no, I think part of the problem is that when it is a guy who, that has felt like his spot since he signed here, quite frankly, I mean, he was brought in to do many things. But one of them was to bat lead off for the Blue Jays. It's so much easier to do that when you have a prototypical person for that role. But guess what, a prototypical or not, they're just better options for this ball club and you need a better table setter. This team doesn't get the big hit very often, but it's useless if there's not, you know, something to bring in with said big hit. So yeah, be it a Davis Schneider. Man, like I know you want his pop elsewhere, but Turner gives you as good a nap ad as anybody else. - I like Davis Schneider with his on base stability. - I know, you're right, but I can make funny about it, too. Like, it's your sweet prince, we know. - Yeah, I mean, I've been proven very right, very right. It's not lost, I mean, everybody's talking about Davis Schneider needs to play every day and you know what? - Yeah, continues to perform against the righties and lefties. - Anywho, where were all your good things to say about the Leafs that came through? - They're just like, "Oh, Davis Schneider." And I'm like, "Okay, wouldn't say good, "work your pixie dust magic on one of the Leafs next time." - No, I can't do that. - Should've been talking about Matthew Nye's more than I was were you. - I know, I have derailed the conversation my fault. - No, we'll get back into the Leafs in mere seconds. Blue Jays a day off today, two game series in Philadelphia starting tomorrow on the day off Thursday. That's the good news for the Blue Jays is that we don't have to watch that team all that often in the next four days. All right, when will we come back? - Matthew's the Frank Seravelli though, joins us today. Bad news for him, he has to watch the Blue Jays this week. - No, that's good news for him. - Well, Billy's good. - He'll enjoy the end of it. - It's just like the result in the meantime. It's like, you know, we know, they can be a bit of a slog. - All right, when we come back, the Toronto Maple Leafs head into it off season with many a question mark, we'll talk to our guy, Gorde Stellik next is the fan morning show continues bed and it's Brent County Sportsnet 590 the fan
