[MUSIC] >> Fan, morning, Joe, sports at 5.9 in the fan band. And it's by gunning. So you wanted me to revisit the conversation that we were cut short earlier on. >> That's right, I forgot. >> So Sheldon Keve, as of 8.01 on Wednesday, still the head coach of the Toronto Mail May beliefs. >> As far as we know. >> Yeah, I think they would have released a statement. If you were no longer the head coach of the Toronto Mail beliefs, we know that on Friday, there will be a media availability attended by Keith Pelly, Brendan Shanahan, and Brad for living. Think if there is no clarity by that point. One of the major questions will be what's happening with your head coach. I think that we will have clarity before that. Maybe it comes in the form of a release in the morning. Again, Friday, this is news dump land. This is, I think all of it comes out on Friday that Sheldon Keve has been dismissed. And then we really do start the wheels chugging along as far as who the next head coach of the Toronto Mail beliefs will be. It also depends on where Carolina ends up in this first round series against the New York Rangers. So the question we began to answer and debate earlier on in the program is the one that we will continue right now is whether this is a really good job in not just hockey, but like in North American pro sports, being the head coach of the Toronto Mail beliefs. My contention is that of course it is because of mostly, mostly the money, the paid outsides sums, especially if you're in demand and you happen to fall into this certain spot, a certain moment in time in which may beliefs need a head coach like Mike Babcock did, like Rod Brenda Moore May, like Craig Barouba May when you're in demand and the team with the most money that spends the most on this one position, they can throw it at you. They're going to throw it at you. So the money is great. Also, the team is very good. No matter what happens this off season, the regular season was great. And yeah, factually, they were a goal away from winning another first round series against the Boston Bruins and who knows what goes on. You also have the best goals score in the National Hockey League and not quite a heart trophy finalist but a silky finalist and a great player in Austin Matthews plus the bar is super low because they've accomplished nothing. Sorry, they accomplished one thing. They beat our team in a six game series last season and before that, they got respect in the handshake. Right. It was a building thing, respect and then a series victory. Now back to respect. Plus, I also think now that the, I don't think Brendan Shanahan's going to be fired because clearly like being involved in whatever's going to happen on Friday is a pretty clear indication that that Keith Pelly's not moving off of him. But what happens now going forward is he wears more and more and more of this thing. So you have some separation of culpability here too. But you also have two head coaches that couldn't get it done. If you can't get it done, it's like, well, it's not a coach thing because they keep trying new guys and it doesn't work. And all the accoutrements that come with being the head coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs, you get everything. You're treated like a prince, I'm sure, within that organization, within the walls of the facilities, the facilities are amazing. The players are gods. You're just a prince. Prince, okay. Is there any pushback to that? I think I don't, there's no pushback to what you're saying. Nothing you're saying there is wrong. I think there is one, there's a couple of caveats to it though. I think that if Mitch Marner is traded, like we think is very much a possibility, at least this summer. And there is seen to be a true new feel around this group. You know, I'm not saying people look at Matthews and Newlander as those guys are bonafide winners. Guess what? No one on this team is. But I do think they look at those two guys differently than they look at the team's failings as a whole. And I think if there is seen to be a different change and you still can't get them over the hump with the Selke, with the Selke nominee, 69 goal center and your other 100 point guy. I think there is still an element. Now with with Brindomor, I think he has built up so much goodwill and a track record of it that it is enough to overcome any of that. If you're Craig Barouba, though, and your whole MO is, I'm going to come in here. I'm going to scream at these guys and make them play hockey. Because guess what? I'm a man and I'm the coach Lulee Morello, what hired or whatever. Then it still doesn't work. Then all of a sudden where you'd guy who had a magic pixie dust run. And I suppose you could say that could happen with any other job with Barouba. But the expectations weren't there. The third thing I'd throw at you is something you actually brought up to my attention earlier when we were talking about the job Keith has done is. And I don't think anyone takes a coaching job to win a Jack Adams award. But there is a understanding that the coach here can only get so much credit. You're not going to win a Jack Adams. And again, I don't think Rob Brindomor cares how many Jack Adams he has. But that is a signifier of respect and the job you're believed to have done across the league. And I just think there's a reason why a leaf coach could never be in that position. I mean, don't ever say never like 10 years from now when this thing's been torn down to dirt. Sure, you could have your run that makes sense. But that's the third thing I'd say. I don't think it's a bad job by any means. I just think like any high profile job, there are some pretty obvious pitfalls that could come with it. I mean, nobody's wanted Jack Adams during this span. But like, the beliefs have also never won a president's trophy. It's a regular season award. They've like finished at the top of their division once when they played in the joke, North Division. So, I mean, if you do that, you think you might have a kid. I don't think so. Anyways, let's talk to our insider who is brought to you by Don Valley, North Lexus, where you can expect excellence online. And in the showroom, visit Don Valley North Lexus.com. First question for our next guest, who is Damien Cox. What's a better job being the head coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs or the historian of the Toronto Maple Leafs? I think it's being the head coach of the PWHL team in town. First place opening night at a playoff. I thought you guys would be more excited. Yeah. This is awesome. That's tough to get somebody down. Who do you guys like? I mean, I like Toronto. What do you guys think of the system? What do you think of the system of them? All that they pick own upon it. I love it. I love it. I actually think it is what the Leafs most needed. Like, if Matthew Gachuk would have taken to a podium before the first round series and said obviously want the Leafs. They're terrible. They're going to lose their chokers. I actually think it's the only thing that could save this core. Here's the problem, though. Every year in the playoffs, okay, who wants the Leafs and seven hands go up every night? I can't all pick the Leafs. Not everybody can play the Leafs in the first round. Come on. Okay, let's start here, Damien, because you were- What was the question? You want to try to- Nah, that was just a joke question. But I need to know this, because yesterday, it was the last couple of days. You've been a prolific tweeter and a lot- And just the last couple of days. That's just the last couple of days. What's up? Sometimes it's- See, he takes a break. And I'm just talking about the Leafs specific tweets here, though. Um, come- He's my lawyer. Take a break. No, don't take a break. It's fine. More content, the better. Please. But, okay, I need to drill down here on what the actual Leafs' post-season take is, because I saw a lot of like, hey, there's all this insanity and these people screaming from rooftops here in Toronto after a postseason failure, like shoot Mitch Marner out of a cannon into outer space, and like obviously that's idiotic, which that is idiotic. And like giving them away from nothing is idiotic. Exploring a trade of Mitch Marner, I don't think is idiotic. Like, where are you on this Leafs team and how close or far away they may or may not be being an overtime Game 7 goal away from beating the Boston Bruins in the first round, I should add. Okay, there's a lot of stuff in there. I know. So let me- there's like 23 questions in there. So let's- let's play. Should I explore any trade for Mitch Marner? You should explore after every season if you're to trade options for all of your players. If there is anybody, okay, if someone wants to give you Conor McDavid and Leon Dreyseidel and Stu Skinner and Darnell Nurse for Austin Matthews, you make that trade. So like, there's nobody untradable, okay? But within the terms of the collective bargaining agreement, no move clauses, salaries, etc. Obviously there are players who are much more difficult to trade. So let's start with that. Second thing, do you want to trade your players when they are at their lowest possible value? Because that's what you're doing right now if you trade Mitch Marner. Coming off a high ankle spring, which everybody in hockey knows is one of the most difficult injuries to recover from. Instead of being given credit for getting it out in the playoffs and coming back and playing, he's being treated as though he's soft and doesn't care, okay? Everybody can interpret it the way they want. In terms of coming off another playoff failure, okay, which I think is what you said. It's a playoff failure. They have to play a very tough team in the- in no question, first round out, that's failure. There's no question about it. So how big is the failure? Well, you're playing the Boston Bruins, first place team, favor it's going in. You don't have William Nielander for the first three games because he can't see straight. You've got Austin Matthews getting sick in game four, missing five and six, and then back in some form for game seven. You finally think you've got your goalie set up, Joseph Wall, he can't play game seven. You've got minor. Now, every team has injuries, but you have to, when you're evaluating a season of any team, whether it's the Toronto Maple Leafs or any sport, you have to take all these things and account before you start making major decisions going forward. That's all I'm saying. So, like saying, trade this guy, fire this guy, okay, but well, to what end? To what end? And it was about this time back in here we go and delete the story and vote. That's the sub voice. Let's believe it. Around this time, the Leafs ran out of patience with Jim Gregory in the 70s, rip that team up, and then set themselves up for, well, what, 15 years of misery before Cliff Fletcher arrived in town. So, you got to be careful about what you're talking about here, because it's not easy. If it was easy, you know, 31 other teams would be still alive and playing. Yeah, I echo just about everything you said. That was pretty much the show I did on Monday, Demo, of just no one's. That's right. That's where I got it off. Oh, okay. Thanks. I always appreciate it. You know, what I look at it, though, is that, and I think the other part is that, you know, people have made this point. If this exact playoffs plays out three years ago, two years ago, I think there is a lot more appetite for it. The kneelander, the Matthews, okay, Marner's coming off the high ankle. And again, I don't disagree with anything you're saying. I just think the time in the window that this happened could not have come at a, at a worse one with a, yes, there are excuses. It doesn't mean they are looking to be excused, but those are reasons why, or at least part of the reason why the series went, went that way. In terms of Keith's fate here, where do you stand on it? Do you think he's the right guy? Do you have any problem with him? I don't know. It seems from the outside, at least like he's kind of, you know, waiting or, you know, twisting in the wind here trying to figure out what's going to happen. Do you think there's an issue with the Leafs doing that? What direction would you take in terms of coaching? Yeah, I mean, I think it's time for a change because it's in one area that you can make a change. I want to give Sheldon Keith lots of credit for what he did in games five, six and seven, getting that, when everybody thought it was over, getting that team ready to play. The part that would make me a bit crazy is, so why do they have to get 3-1 down on the series until they started playing a style that was more commensurate, a mentor with playoff hockey, right? I mean, that would, look, I think Sheldon Keith's had his shot five years. You know, that's a pretty good run. It's not like they're changing coaches every, you know, two years, like some teams do. Now, the only thing I would add to that, who are you going to get? Who are you going to get that you know is going to be better? Now you're probably not going to get somebody who's going to get somebody who's going to change and have a different approach and maybe has had more success. So yeah, I think it makes sense to make a change just as it makes sense to change the roster like they do every year. I like Rod Brindebore personally. I know. I like Scotty Bowman, but he's not a little boy. But you don't think Rod Brindebore is available? I know that they're saying good things after, you know, first of all, I thought this contract extension was agreed to like months and months ago and then the Kevin Weeks report that it wasn't and then like the subsequent media availability was like, ah, it's all good. But like, I haven't seen anything officially officialized yet. Like are we sure that there's not going to be a potential conversation between Rod Brindebore and the Toronto Maple Leafs if the Carolina Hurricanes go down in this round or subsequent rounds or whatever. I mean, when it's handling up, it's hard to imagine that he leaves, he leaves there. I mean, it has happened in years gone by, but like you don't think a conversation might take place between he and his representatives and the Toronto Maple Leafs if he's available? If he's available. Yeah. Remember the last big name coach that Toronto Maple Leafs bit everybody for him brought into town? How'd that turn out? I mean, look, I think and I think and Mike Bauchock had a lot more success in his career than Rod Brindebore's had. Yes. I have lots of respect for Rod Brindebore and if it were to turn out to be that he was the next coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs that I think that'd be I think that'd be a good step forward. But there's no magical guy there. No. The only guy I think you can point to and say he's had real success in the NHL is Joel Quindel. Yeah. And we've had that discussion before guys. I don't know if he's radioactive in NHL circles. I don't know the answer. And I also don't know if he wants to coach anymore. I think he's happy down in Florida. I don't know. He loves the horses. He does all that stuff. He may not want any part of it. No, I started to do media now. I think he very much is like, okay, I thought this would be like a short term thing. And like now no one's talking about me like I don't exist anymore. I and maybe maybe you know people closer to the situation just from I just reading the media landscape. Again, like he's he's come up for air here. He's you can get him on your show on your podcast. And he will talk about how he thinks he should be coaching again. I think he's ready to get back in the league. Well, he'd be the guy then. Well, let me throw let me throw a Pelly question at you about it. Let's say the league is because I have I have no reporting on this, but I've been kind of reading the tea leaves of the belief that the NHL is not going to give Joel Quenville the go ahead until there's zero chance the Leafs are going to hire him as the head coach. I mean, if you're the NHL and you could pick his landing spot, it would probably be anywhere other than there. Or I mean, obviously, Chicago. Do you think that there is an element of MLSE if they want to get that guy and they're being held back, throwing their weight around or asking the question, or is that where the radio activity of it all kind of comes into play? And I wonder if that's easier because again, you know, Keith Pelly is not the again, I'm blanking on his name. The old MLSE CO was brought in here to not talk. He's a public figure. I do a Frischdahl. Thank you. Thank you. I do wonder if there's a world where if that's the guy they want and they've been at least back channeled to say you can't have them, they kind of crank up public pressure. Do you think that would be too too radio after? I'm not sure I understand why the league would say you can't have. Well, I think if I'm the NHL and Joel Quenville is going to come back into the league. It's one thing if he's the head coach of the Utah, whatever's, it's another thing if he's head coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs and the biggest lightning ball. You could be do you think they would have a hesitancy to have him be the head coach in Toronto versus somewhere else? Well, I think they'd be opening themselves to a massive lawsuit if that was the case that you can't take. You can't say a guy's eligible and say, but you can't only work in certain places. No, but you could just not reinstate him or give the go ahead until that job is not there. Because I think that that's the other part of this is that Keith has been safe ish the last two or three years that this has been going on, but he hasn't been. And I don't know that this is solely about the Leafs, but I'd be lying if that thought hasn't crossed my mind that they go, you know what? Until they have a new head coach. And I know Keith did just sign an extension, but we all understand what that's worth to the Leafs. And just in terms of the money, it's not going to bother them. I have kind of wondered that. You're right. Like they can't they can't have it in a memo that, ah, yes, you're right. Once the Leafs hired their head coach, then we can go ahead. But we know businesses have done things before that aren't written on a memo. I mean, I don't know, as a historian, this probably shouldn't shock you, but like people have had secrets and dare I say lies even before. Look, I think Mike's back back in. And so I think it's time to let Joel Quenville back in. Unless there's evidence out there growing doing that I've not seen. And I don't think the NHL, I just don't. I'm a fan of the Gary Bettman, the regime. I just don't see that as a. Oh, yeah, no, he can coach anywhere, but he can't coach in Toronto because that would be embarrassing. If the NHL was worried about being embarrassed, there's a whole bunch of other stuff he could bring to their attention. Yeah, it only being embarrassed here though. I think that's the thing. I don't know. I think I think look, I think the NHL would love to see the Toronto make least one of the Stanley Cup. I really do. Yeah, I think that I mean, that would bring a level of, you know, attention. And I mean, it's like the Chicago Cubs win in the world, or the Boston Red Sox win the World Series. I think the NHL would love to see Toronto. It drives the whole thing. It's the most valuable franchise in the league. It's not even a Canadian thing where it's like, obviously, the TV rights existing here with Rogers that that game seven against the Bruins did a crazy bananas number south of the border, like relatively speaking, for an NHL playoff game. But yeah, that was, you know, well viewed game. Yeah, we don't buy the American television audience. We don't need to belabor the point. I just want to be clear. I'm not saying it because the league is against the Leafs. I think they'd be doing that to avoid the eyeballs on the Quenville of it all. I don't think it'd be they don't want the Leafs in a good position. Yeah, I think they would love the Leafs because, guess what? The bottom line is better. The better they do. And the players obviously want the Maple Leafs to do well, even if they're not on the Maple Leafs. Just on Mathematica Chuck, but yeah, he already got his money. But yeah, they want the salary cap to go up. All right. I also want to hear your thoughts on the insanity because you, I don't know, are you, you're not? It's funny to know. Thanks, buddy. I don't kind of like this dialogue going on between here. It's sort of like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Everything's like so well trod ground, except for here, because now, okay. And I, I don't believe you're still a voting member of the hockey writers association. But yeah, I mean, we already talked about it earlier. And I had it out with Frank Seravelli late in the regular season when it felt like Austin Matthews wasn't getting his due as a heart trophy candidate. And we all agreed he was an incredible 200 foot player and 69 goals. Ridiculous, ridiculous, ridiculous. But at least at that point, I was like, I was pretty, I had already understood that he was not going to be recognized as that 200 foot player. And that's the reason why he wouldn't be entered into the heart trophy discussion. But now that he is factually a finalist for the Selky, like he they've decided those guys have said explicitly, yeah, he's one of the top three defensive forwards in the NHL. And he scored 69 freaking goals. A man 100 assists is incredible. And the key to cut off Conor McDavid, Nathan McKinnon, those are all great players. But what are we talking about here? That's if he is, and again, you told us explicitly, one of the best defensive forwards in the NHL this year, and you have this historic goal total, that's one of the best seasons in the history of the sport. Do not be a heart trophy finalist. That's insane. Well, and here's the really bizarre part about all this. It's the same people voting, right? It's not like, you know, the Jack Adams, that's the broadcast, you know, the best. But this is the same voters. We're saying, yep, he's one of the best at Huntsman. Yep, we see one in the rocket. He's also one of the most generally, but I wouldn't want him on my team. Like it is bizarre. Now, I was a member of the Professional Hockey Writers Association. I have a pretty good idea of how that organization works. I know Frank and a few other people have done a lot of work and efforts. There are people in that organization voting who have no business voting. I can guarantee you that. And it's only got worse since they've gone after, what are they at? 47 teams now or whatever. I mean, I like, guys, there are people that have no business voting. And I think you've seen some results in recent years. This is not the most egregious voting error by the PHWA, but it's pretty bizarre. So, he's better defensively than Kuchar of McKinnon or whoever that's David. McDavid. Oh, he's good. He's better defensively than all. None of those guys are in the defense of voting, right? They don't fact that none of them. Yeah. And he scores more goals than all of them. Yeah. But can't play, I might think. Yeah. You know what it is? The only the only logical explanation is that the lady being candid to see is held against him in this regard. They're like, you know what? Too nice, too nice. You need more of a jerk. I mean, Kuchar of certainly fits the bill. I don't know. It's like, actually, like it's not that matter, right? He's really want to. And it's something to go. But I just think it. I think the I think the voting system has needed it to be overhauled for some period of time now. And this is just the latest piece of evidence because there are just too many people there who have no clue what they're doing. Yeah. Seems pretty clear. Yeah, I'm like that. I probably should have said at some point within that with all due respect. Oh, yeah. That's. Oh, you said it now. Retroactive. Retroactive respect. Yeah. You know what? For the podcast, we'll cut that out and we'll put it at the beginning of your answer. Okay. Or actually take this instead. Damien Cox, fully respects all members. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if that's true, though. It's pretty clear. It's not. That's not true. And you know what? To be fair, guys, there are lots of guys who I do respect and women who I do respect in the PHWA. But there's a lot of people shouldn't be voting. Mm hmm. I'll I'll do respect. Yeah. I told you respect. Damien. Thank you. As always, buddy. Yeah. All right, guys. I can't believe we didn't talk about Brendan Shanahan. I was all for sure. Oh, I'm sorry. We kind of do. Yeah. No, I acted. Good job by you. I know. I need to ask you this because I was almost going to introduce you as the Keith Pelly Whisperer. Like give me a timeline of events here because I feel like, again, monitoring your Twitter account as I do, I felt like your tweet about, hey, it seems pretty clear that Brendan Shanahan's coming back came before we heard that Keith Pelly and Brendan Shanahan were both going to go to a dais on Friday. What's going on there with your former neighbor? I have not talked to Keith. I can tell you that. But I would say I think I understand Keith Pelly's way of doing business. And I don't think he's going to arrive here and start firing people. I think he's going to come and give these guys a vote of confidence and say these are really good hockey people. And yet you can jump on Brendan Shanahan and say he hasn't won the Stanley Cup. But look around the league, guys. Not everybody is like George McPhee and wonders in. And if you want to say we want to go get George McPhee in front of Brendan Shanahan, you can make an argument. You can make an argument about Joe Sackett and what's happened in Colorado. But I mean, Doug Armstrong, it took him 11 years to win the Cup in St. Louis. David Poyle was in Nashville for 26 years and got to one Cup final. You know, like to sit here and go, oh, you've had his chance, he's proven he can't do it. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. And when he had perspective to the whole thing. So I think that's what Pelly's going to do. I could be wrong because I have not talked to him. But I have not. I only talked to you guys. And then that's pretty much it for the week. Cut off all your, I'm a hermit after that. There just yells at the void on Twitter. No, so I think that's what's going to happen. And I think it's the sensible thing to do. And if it all die bombs next year, then you have an opportunity to look at it again. Yeah, you're a saver bullet, sure. All right. Now, now we have to go. Thank you, Damon. Thank you. Why? I've been having some chicken time. I'll be setting my my Twitter alerts to alert me to your next. You guys get along now. All right. See you. Bye bye, Damien. Damien Cox, our insider, brought to you by Don Valley, North Lexus where you can expect excellence online and in the showroom, visit Don Valley, North Lexus.com. He can protest all he wants about a lack of communication with his former neighbor. But I did find that tweet. Very interesting. That, yeah, he had it, I think before. We knew that Keith, Kelly and Brendan, and we're going to step to a podium together on Friday. The whisper, as you said, doesn't always mean, you know, but sometimes sometimes the wind just whispers to you. Like, you know, somebody well enough. You could just, you could feel it out there. Yes. And also, do you agree with my theory that at least three members of the voting block for the heart trophy held, Austin Matthews being such a gentleman against him? Yeah, I do. I will say, like, given my brothers, I'd rather not have the best player in the league on your team. Also, being the nicest guy in the world, apparently, given my brothers, I wish there was a, like, anti lady being, yeah, award for honest behavior. You know, I don't need actual reprehensible humans, just between, you know, both say the lines, but on the ice. Yeah. I think it's more that he won a heart trophy already. And they're like, oh, that was, that was the other thing I wanted to mention. We could sit here all we want and say about, um, say, like, oh, you know, he's already got his who really cares. Imagine you were up for like, you felt like you put forward a year as the greatest broadcaster in this country. I think I just did. Yeah. Okay, but you already got one. So who cares? Like no recognition for you. No, but I'm saying, like, imagine that imagine you're so good at that that that's just like, it's like, it's okay, man's rich. You don't need another Canadian screen award. You're good. I don't know. I don't know how many has, but I just couldn't imagine being, yeah, being at that level and people go, no, no, it's okay. You don't need any accolades. That's fine. And I suppose you don't if you're at that level, but God, I'd be so annoyed hearing people go, who cares? I don't think enough people are talking about my last year and how good it was, but whatever. As mentioned earlier in the show, bear naked ladies present the big racket at Sobey Stadium. On June 27th, we're giving away tickets to enter for a chance to win Texan today's code word rock to 59590. Again, that's a rock to 59590 today. The last day we're giving away tickets. If you don't win with us though, go to ticketmaster.ca to secure your tickets. When we come back, been too long since we talked to our next guest, Adnan Burke of MLB Network. Next, as the fan morning show continues, Ben N.S. Brent Gunning sports at 590 the fan. Covering the blue jays from an analytical perspective, Jay's talk plus with Blake Murphy. Be sure to subscribe and download Jay's talk on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Fan morning show sports at 590 the fan, Ben N.S. Brent Gunning. Hey, Major League Baseball season started at the end of March, but it only truly started in these parts this week with the Toronto Maple Leafs departing as they always do. The first round of the Stanley Cup playoffs, it's not the Adnan Burke of MLB Network and the Cinephile podcast. How's it going, Adnan? You're a great Ben, Brent. Yeah, I know we were a weekly hit by a totally get it list. Leech, it's leaf land. You guys are all focused on that. I'm fortunate crushing defeat once again, but the good news for the blue jays was the Leafs were in the playoffs because obviously heaven was focused on the Leafs. Now the bad news for the Jay, the Leafs are out and everyone is focusing on the blue jays. Yeah, it's not so great right now. Adnan, like I've had guests after guests the last couple of days on to talk about the blue jays and I've asked them all what are the reasons for optimism and people are having trouble. Like they are struggling to come up with reasons why this is going to turn around for the blue jays because there's not even like last year where it's like, oh, well, they're not hitting with runners in scoring position, but they are hitting a little bit better than that overall. There's not a they're just not hitting in any situation, not hitting any home runs. And okay, the rotation's fine, but it's not overwhelming anymore. And Jose Barrios isn't even the ERA leader in Major League Baseball after yesterday's performance. I mean, from an outsider's perspective, does this feel like the end of, boy, like, an era, the bow and Vlad era, who are just factually under team control for another year, but it just, it feels like this is the end of something that we're witnessing. Yeah, it's definitely concerning right now. You know, we have a game on Emily Network. It will be now at Bryant County. It's concerned panic doom. So we're definitely concerned right now for the days and we could be heading close to panic if this continues because, you know, if you look at the litany of guys in the struggle, Boba Shek, four for 40 hitting 100 in his last 11 games going in the yesterday, dropping the three hole was a jacket first time his career starting in DC. She's been here batting 135 his last nine games, overall, he's hitting about 205 on the season. He's slugging 303. That's just horrific. 279 on base. Vlad Jr had a grand slam Sunday. That was his first home run since April 10th. That's awful. James have been out of homework 46 to 30 this season going in the last night. Only the White Sox Cardinals have raised a worse homework differential and, of course, last night, Bryce Harper goes deep at home run just cleared the fence. You mentioned burrillo. She's been incredible. 144 ERA that doubles last night. 2.85 just one start. That's what the Phillies team did. They went into a buzz on the Phillies. They won seven straight, 11 straight at home, 26 wins overall. Philadelphia's the best team in baseball right now. That's without trade Turner's now for six weeks. They're starting pitching has been sizzling. From Toronto's perspective, this is alarming because your stars are not producing Bowen Blad specifically. The high price stars you paid for are not producing George Springer specifically. The only guy who said a good season is Justin Turner. When you're relying on a 39-year-old and a one-year contract to be your best player, you got some problems. Now Varsho, I was pleasantly surprised. It's like an 805 OPS. I'm like, oh, you know what? He's actually been above average and much better than a season to go. But 100 Kirk's still a huge disappointment. I mean, I just cannot believe that trade. You can put Moreno and you're settling for Kirk and Janssen. And the rest of these guys are role players. Like I mentioned, Ben, you go, what do you want? Like, what are you expecting from Kevin Guirmar? What are you expecting from these guys, right? You can't expect those guys to be overwhelmingly stars and carrying your team. Like the stars are to produce and the other guys kind of chip in where they can. And then starting pitch-wise, okay, Brios has been amazing. That happens. You have one bad start. Gossman, clunker out of the gate has been much better. But Bass has been atrocious. I mean, opposing hitters are doing 320-off basses like he's been awful. Kakuchi's still been really good, but that's three-fifths of rotation. But Noah comes back brutal. Six runs over four innings. So a year ago, you're carried by your stars who were all great. Now, you got three of five were great. And the hitters aren't hitting at all. That's tough. Yeah. And I think the problem and, you know, it feels like a crazy thing to say, given all the other problems we've left off for this team, the problem is the starting might be good enough to give them false hope. I think that's the thing is that, you know, there's a somewhat easy decision to be made if you just completely fall out of this. And the Blue Jays are a team that's going to struggle this year. But I also think there's enough there, mostly on the, I'm not mostly, all on the pitching side, to believe that they're going to be, you know, floating around respectability. And it just seems like it's such a tough band-aid to pull off. You know, again, I'm not going to say it's a bad thing that the Blue Jays have a good starting staff that can kind of keep them in it. But I do think it's going to kind of give them false hope pretty, pretty deep into the season. I think that that'd be my, I won't say biggest concern because that's the offense, but that's my bigger, big picture concern. Yeah, Brett, we're not quite there yet, but you're right. The overarching point starts to become, is this team a contender or a pretender? And, you know, normally when you get to Memorial Day, Victoria Day weekend for us, May 24, you start to look at the season and go, okay, in terms of thirds, this is a third of the way through the year. The second third is the trade deadline. And if this team isn't going to be much better by them, and you also need to make some moves, and of course, the final third is a stretch one. So, you're right. A starting pitch, you don't mean the Jays will be good enough, and it's also the fault that Arizona Diamondbacks because a year ago, 84 wins, they make the World Series. So, every team says that, you know what, let's just get to 84, 85, 86 wins, and we can squeak in there. Now, in the American League, that's not going to be good enough. You're going to need at least at bare minimum 88, more like 90 wins to make the playoffs. And I don't think this Jay team has constituted. It's going to win 90 games, right? In the Yankees, the Orioles are going to win the division. One of the other of those teams is going to win the wild card. Cleveland wins the Central. The West is tricky because those teams have got a role in that, which is surprising. Seattle, Texas, Houston's having a horrible year. So, look at that. It opens the door a little bit for Team Licker Jays. But, yeah, somebody, you got to go on a run, and your offense has to get better. And one thing that hasn't been focused on, fellas, it's not like the Orioles were, Jack and all of these struggles, my leaders expected to be a great player, or they've got other hitters in their pipelines. But Jay's don't have a great farm system. Like, there's no big prospect. Right? We've talked to Ricky Tatum, and he's a pitcher. There's no great, like hitting prospects. You don't wait until they call him up late first. That guy's going to be stood. No. Like, this Jay's roster is what it is. And you have to focus on these guys in hope that they produce the super they haven't. And again, what do you expect that Jay kind of fluff to do, right? These replacing Matt Chapman in a bad year, I can't see a role player. Like, what exactly do you want from these guys? Like, it's, I think it's a flawed roster, quite frankly. And I know John Schneider is definitely in the hot seat. Oh, my God. I've any manager right now. He's the most in trouble. He's, right, betting line. It's horrible to say, but he's a betting line. He's the first guy to get fired. But maybe Atkins should be a focus on his walk. This is the roster. He's given him. And so far, it isn't nearly good enough. Yeah, how many GMs get the fire three managers? Like, that's not a thing that happens, right? Like, I get it. Like, John Schneider not going to survive this. But I think that's an end of the season thing when you're acting your GM, because GMs don't generally get asked in the middle of a season, especially with the decisions that are probably upcoming for this team. I get, like, why the betting odds would favor John Schneider to be fired. But if you're Ross Atkins, you don't get to fire John Gibbons, Charlie Montoya, and the guy that you handpicked within your organization, you don't get to fire three guys. No, exactly. I mean, unless you've got some special relationship with the owner, you've got immunity somehow. You're right. Normally you get, you know, the guy, the incumbent, when you come in, you can get rid of that guy. I guess his Gibbons, Montoya. Okay, five, but you're right. Once you have your hand picked out, and that does work out the clocks on you. And you sit up with a giant. It's far on ziding you. Okay, once he got rid of Gabe Papp, or now it's not far on it, the giants don't win. He's going to be the next guy to get the heap. Oh, it's not going to be Bob Melvin right away. So you're right, but GMs never lose their jobs. I mean, very rarely during the season, unless there's some sort of, you know, personal issue or something. Otherwise, it's like, all right, if it's a bad team, let's fire the manager, hope somehow we can get a spark. I would think that's going to be coming, you know, if they don't turn this thing around, they're like, you know, six, seven, eight teams, they're 500. John Schneider's going to be out of a job, like I said, by Memorial Day, by May 24 for us. So, but yeah, acting, I think it would be six over the end of the year, Ben. But after that, I think everyone would take a hard look and go, hang on, you got two years here left to bone flat. This is it. It's the penultimate year. These two guys locked up and you're not going to contend this year. That's a real, real heart attack. Well, and those guys might honestly be on the block of the deadline this year. If it really goes pear-shaped and you really don't intend to extend them and you think you can get your best deal for them at this deadline, either way, if it's if you're in a sell-off mode, like clearly those guys, you're visiting either extending them or if you can't figure something out and they haven't figured anything out with them to this point. So it's reasonable to anticipate a potential moving of the off of either one or both of Vladimir Guerrero Jr. and Bovishette this offseason. Let me take you back to 2021, where Vladimir Guerrero Jr. is second in MVP voting. The Blue Jays are this explosive offense. They feel like they're finally arriving. They finish one game out of the postseason and just about everybody universally says this is the next great team and they did take a step the next year. They made the playoffs and they had a lead in game two of that series against the Mariners boat in spectacular fashion. They haven't won a postseason game in this era. And like I said, it's not over. It's just May, but you can see a scenario in which it is over and like those guys are gone. Where did it go wrong here, Adnan? Where did it where did it go from? This is if you had one team where you could you could bank on being really successful over like maybe a half decade run in 2021, it would have been the Blue Jays. They haven't won a single postseason game and might not ever. Where did it go wrong for this team? It's a great question, Ben. It's amazing how you can go from optimism to just pure unbridled rage. And I think that's kind of what it feels at the top of this fan base because you go from an optimism to saying, Hey, man, we are the next big thing. We have so much star power. And now we've got the pedigree of former superstars, but Boba said, it's going to lead the league and hits. He's going to play a killer defense. Vlad Jr, as you said, run up for MVP. And then we'll just supplement right here. We'll have him be sure here a little a hundred curve there and we'll figure this thing out. But the way it's gone sideways is that perhaps they overvalued their stars. So Vlad Jr isn't as great as we saw in that one year. The one year was in aberration. He's still a good player, not a great player. You know, I've talked before, the OPS platform from like 161 134 117. So above average hitter, but not a great hitter. So he's not worth $300 million contract. We thought at one point he was going to get. As I said to you guys before, like, I look at Freddie Freeman's deal. Like, yeah, that's like a Vlad deal. Like, if you give me six years at 150, I'm like, yeah, that's $27 million a year, by the way. That's pretty good money. Like, I don't like to be like, that's reasonable. These numbers that I heard before, that's 250, 300, like 10 years. Like, are you kidding? There's no way I'm giving that to Vlad Jr. And Boba's shit, consequently, before you might have been arguing, you know, an eight year 240 something like that. But even now, like you could, I mean, the way it boils to that means I hit it all right now. So I think of the two, you'd have to make, and then here's, here's what's fascinating thoughts. There's truly fascinating. You went from everybody collectively, Major League Baseball, saying, wow, with these two guys, just certain nucleus, they're going to win a world series. The only question is how many, right? That's really, really fun. That it became, well, hoping you can get one. Then it became, they're not going to be able to afford both. But hopefully, they can get it done in this window. And now it's become, even if you had the money and the resources, would you sign either? Right? Think of how that is changed. If I sit either of you, you're the GM of the team, I'll give you $250 million. And you get $250 million. At the end of 2025, you have three choices. You can assign Vlad, you can assign Boba, or you can spend it elsewhere. Which one are you choosing? Are you going to have people going, no, I'll just look elsewhere. I keep it. I just keep it. Well, yeah, that's you. She needs to be looking at very fat, fat pockets after that. Yeah, it is. I think that's the thing, is that you always, and I think it becomes even more difficult with Vlad and Bo and Vlad have been tied at the hip, but we also have to be realistic that they've been tied at the hip. But Bo is Bo and Vlad is bad. They're different entities. He just represented hope and a new turn for the franchise and to have to come to the realization that even if he is a part of it, that maybe he is not, you know, not the Vladimir Griro Jr. If this team ever wins, isn't going to be, you know, a part of it. But I do think you have to come to the realization that he might not be, you know, what you envision, close your eyes. It's the cleanup hitter, the guy hitting 50 bombs. That's not him. Right. And I just think there is such, it is such a tough thing for the person, probably Vlad, he's camp and the organization to kind of come to grips with. It almost be, again, not that he's going to do this. But if he could negotiate with a different team, it feels like it would almost be easier to see a world where a deal could get done because there's not as much built in of what it was supposed to look like here as opposed to what it's actually become with Vlad. No, that's a great point, Brad. Like I think Vlad Jr. will have a productive major league career, but there's something to be said for where expectations are sky high. And if they're not met, it's always going to be a source of disgruntled men and frustration towards the player in that in terms of what if this guy could have been, whereas to your point, suppose he gets traded this summer, the J say they took a deep hard look at America. You know what? We're not going to resign both of these guys. And the season has gotten away from us. We'll get a lot more for Vlad Jr. for a year and a half than we will for just three months. Look at one, Soto, Padres, et cetera. So they go, OK, let's deal Vlad. And wherever he goes, as you said, it's tricky, by the way, because as they say, whoever wins the trades will ever get the best player. So if you're trying to pull off a prototype trade like Preller did, you're giving him C.J. Abrams looks like a star for the Washington National. So the J's have to hope they get back a star and a couple of really good pieces from Vlad Jr. because make no mistake, he still will still command a solid price in the open market whenever team wants to trade for him. But once they get him, you're right. If he pencils in it is a 280 20 home runs, 95 or maybe they'll go, that's great. That's what we wanted. Like whenever team that may be, if it's the Mets, they'll be thrilled. He's the guy that they could match with a lot of jobs. That makes sense because we have to first base. You know what I'm saying? Wherever he goes, the expectations will be different. So there is something to that. But I think if there's a lot of watching, and again, I hope the J's turn this thing around and make a little push, but make the mistake of this gets deeper in the season. I think you have to take a hard look and say, are we really going to stick with these two guys for this year and next year and just hope for the best? Yes, it's hard to imagine. And it's hard to imagine this thing turning around to the degree of which you're happy with it. And you want it to continue going forward. Adnan, it's been too long. It's great to hear your voice again, buddy. Thanks for this. Thanks so much, Ben. Brent, miss you guys, too. We'll get back at it soon. Hopefully, so things are on the corner for the J fingers crossed. I'm more confident about talking to you next week than I am wins around the corner for the J's. See you, buddy. All right, there's Adnan Burke of MLB Network and the Cinephile podcast. Part of that is team. Part of that is their upcoming schedule. Feel good about tomorrow. They don't play. Feel about a million times worse about them facing a good twins team and a very good Orioles team. Oh, with the twins, I was just going to say, like, I know burials struggled, but it's like, thank God, he's been good. Could you see what's going on with Simeon Wood Richardson? Yeah, not that that like you give up a prospect to get a good player. It's not that, but it's just that was the one crown jewel trade where it's like clear unabashed win. We gave up nothing. Yeah, maybe gave up something. Yeah, Austin Martin hasn't necessarily been amazing, but I was going to say, like, is there a Leafs corollary here where like Austin Martin definitely hits a bomb of the Blue J's in that. I don't think it works that way. I haven't. I don't know. I feel like you're the guy to tell me if that's how it works. I don't have memories of that, but it's not as much a thing. It's also, you know, every two thirds of Major League Baseball didn't grow up right outside of Roger Center either. There's an element to that as well. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, as far as the Vlad signing with somebody else thing, I thought that was an interesting perspective to put on it. Thank you. Thank you. If you're Vladimir Guerrero, Jr., and you continue to talk numbers with the Toronto Blue J's, which I'm sure like there's been maybe not specific numbers, but like a framework. They've had conversations and what those like when was the first conversation you ever had? Was it after 2021? I'm sure from Vlad's camp, it was like, yeah, yeah, let's talk right now. Was it after 2022? Which is pretty good, but not 2021. And then did you think because you took a step backwards in 2022 and you could get back to 2021 that you're like 2023? And then did you have conversation after 2023 where you were just not very good at all? And how much does that color or conversation going forward with the Blue J's where it's like, oh, you started at a framework of like, yeah, not want Soto money, but like not not want Soto money to now what would clearly be on be one. Yeah, like any conversation that is even in the stratosphere of one Soto is crazy insane. And is that an easier conversation to have with somebody else who doesn't who you've never talked with? I don't see how it's not. I don't see how it's not. I also like you've also have to come to the realization that something happened for you to have been moved to a different spot. You're not in the spot where they always believed in you and not say your new team wouldn't. But yeah, it's just it's human nature. There's there's no, you know, bad, there's no enough that it's been animosity. But there's just anything that's happened here is washed away. It's a clean slate somewhere else. Yeah, that's not to say he can't get closer to that 2021 version somewhere else is just getting harder and harder to imagine it happening here. You never know. It's baseball. It's pro sports things go unexpected ways. It would certainly be unexpected though to see this Blue J's team turn into a juggernaut going forward big time. You know, win today against the best team in baseball would certainly help. We'll talk about it tomorrow. On another edition of The Fan Morning Show, Ben Anis, Frank Gunning, Sportsnet 590, The Fan Morning. Good morning. (upbeat music)
