(upbeat music) - Fan morning show, final hour of my work week. That's the most important thing that you all need to know about right now. Brent Gunning, Jesse Rubenoff here with you. Joining us now, a man who, you know, used to golf with lowly people such as myself, but yesterday was teeing it up with Kevin B. Yaksa. Sammy McKee joining us now. Sammy, what's up, Mike? - I don't get the invite either. - Hey guys, yeah, our schedules, they really don't jive. - No, I know. - It's a heartbreaking part of life here that, you know, we've moved on to great things here and we just can't golf together. - We used to joke, go ahead. - I was just gonna say, we used to joke, like, well, last summer we were doing a lot of morning shows, summer before that, we would refer to it as the no golf shift when we'd be scheduled between like 11 and three. That was tough, but yeah, I miss you. That's all, buddy. I love seeing you on TV. You know, I watch you every day pretty much, but yeah, I miss you. I miss teeing it up with you, and I'm thrilled for you. I mean, we need the quick two second scouting report. What was BX's golf game like? - It was exactly what you'd expect to do. - Okay, yep, that's exactly what I like. - You know, it was just-- - Picture it, I don't even, like, you literally know more words need to be set 'cause I can picture it. - That was two seconds. - That's awesome. - You know, it just, yeah, it was fun. It was a great time. Great guy, Barney Kipper, myself, and BXA and yeah. The highlight of the round was when Kipper's cart doesn't have a lock on it. Like, they gave him a cart that didn't have a lock. And he like kind of parked it on a hill and it like rolled into like a black lagoon, basically, like-- - Oh my God. - And he had like his, he had like his keys, his iPod, sorry, his AirPods, his phone, his wallet, all scattered about. And it was like touch and go, we couldn't find his keys. His keys were like in the mud. There was like three of us, like BXA, all of us are like on the hill. So hollering to find the keys. And I ended up finding them. It was the biggest find of the day. I found them underneath like a pile of leaves and away we went. - You're a producer, that's, you're a producer. That's what you do. You put out fires, a lot of times you cause them yourself, but then you put out the fire. That one wasn't your fault though. - I can tell, I'll text you guys the picture that Barney took of the cart, it is one of, it actually should be, it actually should be like a piece of modern art, it's such a great photo. I'll text it to you guys as we're talking about it. - I also have a picture text of both of you. I once played this golf course, actually now live not too far from it in Burlington. And they said, hey, just careful. There's a pretty steep hill going from, I forget what it was, like seven to eight or whatever it was. And I went, okay, come on. Like how steep can the hill be? Well, there was a cart that just had foliage growing around it, like it was from the Jurassic era. So I'm assuming pretty steep when somebody crashed it in there. So yeah, I do love a good golf cart mayhem. This is the second straight Leafs interview that I'm gonna start with golf talk. But the jokes right themselves, I didn't even mean to do it, but yeah. - Whatever. - Yeah, so- - I know what it is, boys. - Yeah, we don't need- - Golf or the least golf? - What's next, the parade or the crowd sucks? Oh my God, it cares. - Agreed. Well, yeah, yeah, agreed. I load the parade jokes more than anything else in the world, the only fan base in the world that's not allowed to be excited when their team does well. But we don't need to worry about that 'cause they don't do well when it matters all that often. I don't know if you want a opening salvo on Keith. I feel like we all kind of saw this coming. What was your, I guess, your kind of like final picture takeaway from what will now be looked back as the Sheldon Keith era? - What could have been, boys? Would be, by the way, I'd think about it. I studied yesterday on Kipram Bourne. I'll say it again here. Just, they didn't get over the hump and he has the best regular season record with 300 games coached of all time, best winning percentage. And he just never got them over the hump. They never got him over the hump and he's in these playoffs. But you just think if one of them breaks differently, if they finish off that HAB series, if they beat the lightning the first year, if they don't play like crap against the Florida Panthers, like if one of these bounces goes the right way, he's talked about in such a different light, but he owns part of that legacy, boys. He's part of the failures. He's part of the under-achievement. So I think what's done is done and it's probably the right move, but at the same time, much like the Mitch Marner conversation, I think once he goes somewhere else with the experiences he's had here and the learning that he's taken from here, he's gonna be a really good coach somewhere else and there's gonna be conversations in this city. Maybe, as early as next year, but the following year about how the least could ever let him go. So, it's gonna be a fun one for sure for Leaf fans, but I think this is a necessary thing that had to happen. - Are you surprised that Brendan Shanahan's got another kick at the can here because Sheldon keeps here for five years. Shanahan has been here for a decade, which is like an unprecedented run for an executive to be able to help shape an organization and yet it appears he's gonna get at least one more shot to try and do it. How surprised were you that Shanahan's gonna be a part of the press conference today? - I, you know, you're steaming mad after you watch your team losing game seven over time and I'm thinking to myself, there's just no way that everyone can come back including the coach, including the president. But I think if you've ever been around Brendan Shanahan and you've ever heard him talk hockey or you've just been in the same room with him, he definitely has the power to impress in a big way. And I'm sure Keith Pelley has been doing a ton of, a ton of talking with him. They've probably had a bunch of fancy dinners of cost absorbing around him money and just, you know, they've been hanging out together. And I bet you he came to the realization that he's like, this is Brendan Shanahan and he listens to him talk and he says to himself, who am I gonna find that's more impressive than this than better than this than those hockey more than this? Like he has a way with people and I think he probably had a way with Keith Pelley he's got one year left on his contract and I'm sure he probably talked to moist himself into another year. Like I guess I don't think it's the right call. I would love somebody else, but like, are you gonna replace them with no one and have Brad for living, have all the power? Like, I'm really caught in the middle on this conversation. Like, I do think a big part of their issues are at the core of it and it's rotten from the core all the way up to the top and then down and not everywhere you wanna go here. But at the same time, I don't know if I want Brad for living being the grand Puba, the Toronto Maple Leafs and having all the say, like, it's a very scary conversation to me. So as much as I was mad and I'm mad here now, I think it's probably, again, a necessary evil, much like getting rid of Keith that he's just gonna stay around for the final year of his contract and then after next year he's gone. So I'm not sure, boys, but it really just feels like he kind of talked to himself, he's talked to him way into this with Keith Pelley. Yeah, I know it feels not well. - No, no, I don't disagree. So I thought this was interesting. We'll play the clip a little later on in the hour, but the new 32 dropped overnight, apparently. And apparently the way this whole press conference came together today is that Pelley was adamant. He wanted to be a part of it to talk. So I think that kind of goes without saying, but I do think it's interesting that Pelley kind of wanted to be maybe not front and center, or he would have done it by himself, but at least seeing as a big part of the brain trust here, I think that's interesting. But I'm with you. I, sorry, were you gonna say? - Keith Pelley, a hockey, like, is he like, is he a hockey guy? - This is where I think- - Oh, he's running the golf? - No, no, no, this is where I think it's all very interesting. Like, yeah, Keith Pelley's a hockey guy in the same way like we are. It's like, yeah, we grow up. We watch the game. - I love hockey. - I love it. Yeah, I'm sure he does too. Zero doubts about it. But, and much like you though, I don't want Brad's for living to be the, and not to say he couldn't do a good job at it, but I don't know, like, we've had a year of this. It went okay. I don't think it went so overwhelmingly. - That similar? - Yeah, like exactly. I would say that if the, I mean, it was very similar, you're right, but I also don't see from "Trill Living 1" to say, oh man, no way would I want him to be the chief overseer. I don't think he did a poor job to that regard, but I also haven't had such a body of work that you say, yes, definitely give him the kind of full power and full say here. I think with the Shanahan thing, we just gotta gotta think about it the way we thought of Keith with "Trill Living" there. The guy's under contract. He, say what you will about how it's ultimately ended up, but he has stabilized and built things here. Why would you move on? So I've been as critical as Shanahan, I think, as anybody. His name's on the plan and he's almost never worried, but yeah, I think, I wouldn't have expected them to kind of move on either, especially. I could have seen a world where they said, you know what, Sheldon, case really good at his job. We want that back, but there has to be some change and then maybe it is all the way at the top. I could have seen that more easily than the other way around, quite honestly. - Yeah, it's gonna be, I, you know, we've had some pretty electrifying press conferences in the last 12 months in this city. I mean, that week where Dubas came out and said that his family is in danger and then went and took a new job within a week. And then, you know, Shanahan came out and buried him publicly for 25 minutes. Like, that was pretty good. You know, I don't know if today is gonna live up to that, but boy, it's very, very, very fascinating to hear, to know what we're gonna hear today. I really don't know what to, like, what do you guys expect? I expect some groveling. I really do. - Yeah, I think there'll be, - I was just gonna say, I think there'll be an opening statement that is very much, hey, we know that this is not good enough. I expect from Shanahan something along the lines of, my name is on the plan and it has been nothing but failure to this point. Like, I think you're gonna see the very pointed self-criticism. They never admit it. And, you know, I think they pick and choose. I don't think they're listening to all of it, but some of it worms its way in and they know what it needs to sound like today. I'm way less interested in what they say than what they say in response to what's posed to them. Like, I would hope they get a very pointed question and I don't care which one of them gets appointed, Adam, of will you be asking John Tavares or Mitch Marner to wave no move clauses? I mean, John Tavares has been asked that point blank and I think that if you're gonna ask anybody, there's the guys who are gonna have to deal with that issue sitting up there. That is the thing I'm kind of curious about and the other thing that I wanna hear that I don't know how, again, you have to ask, I don't think they're just gonna come out and be forthright with this. You have to ask the right questions to get there, but how does this all work? Okay, so like we said, Kelly, good sport executive understands how this world works, but he's not Brandon Shanahan. Is Brandon Shanahan really making all the decisions here? Does Brad your living have to take something to his desk to get it rubber stamped? What is Keith Pelley's role in all of that? That is the thing I'm most curious about and I have no idea what the answer we're gonna get on that is. Yeah, I think the one thing you can't hear and we've been talking a little bit about this on the show is that everyone is safe. Like, you can't have another summer where it's like-- But the thing, I agree with you, you can't have that, but they're also not gonna neuter their trade position. They're not gonna say, yeah, we can't wait to trade Mitch Marner or something. Like, that's such a delicate balance. What you say is, no, it's not a delicate balance. You say everything is on the table. We've done this for eight years and it hasn't worked. Right, everything is on the table. It's an easy out. Like, just, we're gonna explore every avenue that we have at our disposal to make the team better. Like, that's what they're gonna say. Like, well, you, good. They need to say that. Because they haven't said that. If you're a player, you can't be offended by that. No, I know, at every end of your press conference, Jesse, it's the first thing they say is like, they're not going anywhere. Everything's perfect. It didn't fall for us. Like, it can't be that today. It's gonna be a completely different tone. Look at what Morgan Riley said on "Lock and Crenote Day" where he looked like he'd been crying for three days. Look what he said. Take that tone. Grovel. People need groveling. You can't be the pretentious organization that you've been for eight years where you tell people it's not that bad. You can't do that today. You have to tell people it's bad. You have to tell people they screwed up. It's time to grovel. So, I agree. I think that is absolutely what people want. They're people just chanting, I imagine. I don't have an open, but chanting. Grovel, grovel, grovel on the text line. I do wonder if that's almost what Kelly is here to do. Like, you know, again, like, we overdo the family analogies here. But it's like, okay, Brandon Shanahan's dad and he's been running the show. Well, like, grandpa is coming in and he's telling you all to pipe down. You gotta own your stuff. Like, I do wonder if that's Kelly coming in here to really kind of set a different tone. And it's easier, not easier to do. They could have done it at any point in time. But it's an easier way to kind of go about it when there is seem to be a new kind of head honcho. And obviously, he wants to be seen that way or he wouldn't be part of it. In terms of coaching, we all know, like, Barubay seems to be the runaway favorite for this. It seems like if they want him, they better move on that soon. Where are you at? Is that something that would appease you? How much of the hire do you think will be about appeasing the fan base? 'Cause not to say these coaches are all the same, but I do think it's about kind of picking the right guy and it's about message sending as much to the fan base as it is to the team. What do you expect from head coach in there and what would you want if you were the chief decider? I would probably just wait a bit until Carolina gets put out. Everyone keeps saying this and everybody is like, I just talked to your guy, Kipper, about this yesterday. And he told, he was right, I couldn't even get Rod the bod out of my mouth before he was saying, stop, stop mentioning his name, you're not, he's not available. Do you think there's a huge difference between, you know, Tom McClellan and Craig Barubay and all these guys? No, zero. I really don't. No. So I think the Leafs have a good roster and with some off season massaging, they could have a great roster. And if they really do go away from this core for philosophy, where they trade marner for picks and a good player, or they trade marner for a really great defenseman or they trade marner for another scoring player. And then, you know, if God forbid they're able to rid themselves of some of John Tavares's money. I don't know, Kipper's been talking about it, but I don't know if it had happened. But if it did, there's good free agents out there, there's good defensive free agents out there, there's good offensive free agents out there. Like, there's a chance you could have a really, really good looking roster next year. So when it comes down to it to me, if Tom McClellan's the coach or Craig Barubay's the coach or, you know, I don't know any of these guys, Jay Woodcroft. - Okay, but like it actually, but it can't be McClellan. He would be the third shark of the Thornton Marlow era to come in to teach these guys how to win. Like, I don't disagree with you, but it actually can't be McClellan. - I think it could be McClellan. I really don't think it matters to me. So the one, but what I'm getting at here, the two that really move the needle, and the two to me that are really, really, really, the only guys that are gonna actually be different are John Cooper and Rod the Bot. - Yeah. - And to me, I mean, it is funny though, that we're talking about Rod the Bot after his team is about to get swept and they have an over 14 power play. So he's gonna sit-- - It's so tough, it's so tough. - But I do think that getting swept, being low balled, all these things, like they're making the call. They're making the call and it's a godfather offer where you're getting all the money in the world. I know he doesn't wanna leave Carolina all this. I'm waiting for that. I'm just waiting 'til the Carolina Hurricanes are out and I hear that call and I see that he signed a new contract. And then sure, you can move on Barouba. If you don't get Barouba, get McClellan. If you don't get McClellan, get one of these other guys, get going, get any of these guys. I don't care. All these guys are the same guy to me. They're hockey men, they're hockey men. - Just you mentioning though for 14 power play, I'm picturing and again, like I know they'd be really pitching Brindomor, it wouldn't be the other way around, but it's an interview and he goes, I mean, honestly, look, we outshot them two, three to one in some of those games, how could we lose? And they go, we just fired this guy, get out. You know what, we changed our mind. We don't want you, get out. Like it is remarkable how that series is playing out. If he's the one who comes in there. You know, you mentioned Cooper and I'm not gonna sit here and tell you John Cooper would be a bad coach for the Leafs. I don't think that at all. But I am less bullish on him than I am the others because of his want and love to Will Pine. I think there'd be a couple times early on where, and I don't say this to me and he'd say something critical about a player and he'd have to walk it back. I just think he's a guy who loves talking and it's one thing when you talk to six people a year, not even a day down in Tampa, but it's another thing to do that here. I don't know that he, and again, like this isn't me saying, I think John Cooper would be a bad fit or I'd be upset. But if I'm picking kind of my perfect coach, I do think his, I mean, his silver tongue, his love to talk. I could see a world where it kind of comes back to bite him in a market like this. Yeah, I mean, Sheldon Keef talked for 20 minutes a day, though, Gunnar, so it's not like-- Yeah, but he didn't love to. Like, you know, Cooper loves to wax poetic and get into it. Like, it feels like Keef, it was always out of, you know, it was out of-- Have it to actually answer the question. Yeah, it's nothing to do it. Yeah, like, it felt like if he, I don't know how-- Yeah, I shouldn't. The babs, like, all right, we're done, men. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe you disagree. I think the opposite of that. I think that, I think that if there's anyone you're gonna bring in, like, the biggest worry I have about Berube or McClellan or any of these guys is the media. And I think if there's anyone that's equipped to do it, it's John, the best equipped to do it are the exact opposite thoughts of that. That it's like, that's exactly what they would need him for, is that all the media in this city, myself included, somehow, be eating out of the palm of his hand by press conference four. So, like, that part of it to me is good. Let him soak up the spotlight. I can see the world exactly, Jesse. I just, I, that doesn't even, that doesn't worry me. Like, oh, he says to, he has too many good quotes. What a horrible thing that would be. Well, it's not the good ones I'm worried about. I'm worried about him saying something to you, like, maybe a friend that in a different way, whatever. Sammy, where, where are you at on, on Marner at this point? Like, where, where are you feeling? And then there's, there's a motion after the, they lose. And he becomes the lightning rod for criticism. And it doesn't feel like that tenor has calmed down, really, at all, over the last a few days since they lost. But now having Sheldon Keefe make his exit. Is there, is there more, are there more fingers being pointed at Marner? And now something actually has to be done. Or do you think time is going to heal this, this wound, and people are going to be okay with him remaining in a, in a leaf uniform? It's a great question. I don't know. I, I don't know the answer to that. I think, I think maybe the ship has sailed on, on people, liking Marner or, welking them back with open arms. But boy, you better nail that trade because the revisionist history in this city, they will, he will, whoever makes that trade, whoever is tri-living or Shanahan, that strokes the final, you know, check mark on that trade. Boy, you're going to be talked about for 25 years in this city if it goes wrong. So he's been really disappointing the playoffs. I understand that. And if I had my choice, he would be traded, and they would be a different look, and you changed the philosophy or whatever. But God, is it ever a terrifying trade to make? And I wouldn't want to be the one that pulls the trigger on it because you got to nail it and I don't know. Like, what are your ideal that you're getting back? Is it, are you looking to restock the cupboards for Mitch Marner? Are you looking to add trade assets? Like, are you looking to get picks back for him? So you can flip them for a real guy at the draft. Are you looking to get a young defenseman? Are you looking to get another forward? So I, like you have to first figure out what your philosophy is going to be with the trade. You have to see who's got the most value, who's got the most interest. Obviously, all these things are very clear. But man, better nail it because you are going to be talked about for 25 years, the Marner trade. This could be a turning point where this era of leaves hockey where they've been really good in the regular season. And, you know, how many conversations have we had over the last four years about Marner being the least best player for structures of regular seasons? - For sure. - Like, it happens every single year where he's not good in the playoffs. We all get blinding that about it. And then you go into the start of next season and he's dominating the regular season and they have another 100 points. It's just, it's a yearly tradition. It's a, you know, it's a-- - The tradition like any other? - You know, like the, yeah, you could say that. It's a traditional like any other. And I'm just a little bit tepid about it. A little bit worried. - Yeah. - But it's probably going to happen. I think it's the most obvious one. I would much rather get rid of John Tavares is $11 million and Mitch Marner is $11 million. And to me, Mitch Marner playing on a expiring contract in a contract year, not the worst thing for me either. With a little bit, I mean, the guy clearly loves money. So that could be very helpful to me. I don't know. You know, like, think about what Willie was playing like before he got paid with his powers. - Yeah. - I just-- - That was a popular take. - I mean, extremely worried. - Yeah. - And listen, I know people, I know people say that you're going to lose it like they don't care, they lose the trade, they don't care, they lose the trade. I've said it myself, but you know, you're going to care when they lose the trade. - Well, here's another possibility, Sammy. Like it is possible that, you know, they ask him to waive his no move. He decides I'm not going to. And the Leafs say we're not going to resign you for the $12 million that you want. Like there is a world here where they just lose them for nothing and the Leafs free up $22 million in salary cap after next year. Like is that the worst case scenario? If he just walks, they don't get anything in return, but then you can use their money in free agency. - I mean, that'll really help his reputation in this city. - Yeah. - People will love him for that. - Does he care though? Like if he's already going and people already dislike him, like does he care? - How is there no, like, how would you not waive your no trade clause if you were him at this point? - Honestly. - There has to be a couple more spots. - That's why the boys are popular, right? - Yeah, I completely agree. - Like I was talking with, like how can you take disabuse year after year in the playoffs, rightfully so? All deserved. I'm not saying that he doesn't deserve it because I think he's making the second most on the team amongst the forwards and it hasn't been good. But like he's the most online of all these guys, right? Like he is the most aware of the conversations about him. And I don't know how like Salt Lake City or Nashville or Vegas or whatever, doesn't sound 10 times more, 10 times better to me than staying in Toronto when they want to get rid of you and everybody in the fans hate you. Like I can't imagine going in the next year. - There's only one way, but it's not impossible for this to be a thing is that he just, and this is all these guys think this way. Like they have to be this way to get to the levels they're at is that he genuinely believes that next year he's gonna go win the cons my trophy and have a parade down Young Street and write his own ticket. Like that is, that's the only way I can see it, see it happen to. All right, we could, we'd go in circles about this for a hundred years. Guess what? We probably will. I'll listen to you guys not going circles, but like have a very, what are you gonna say? Last one? - Well, no, I just, you know, like, do you not agree though about the trade or you just don't care about like the losing it? - No, no, no, I don't think you can, I think there's a world where you lose the trade in that you use it to restock the cupboards and then you are able to use his money, but it has to be, hey, here is like the TJ Brody ad on steroids or two or three of them with Marner's money. Like there can't, you can't just lose it to, you can't lose it for the sake of losing it, but you can lose it and then add stuff with his money and then maybe the restocking of the cupboards become pieces at the deadline. That can happen, but the idea that you make a Mitch Marner trade and it's, you know, here I'll throw one that you loved to pick on, that it looks anything like the Jake Gunsell trade where it's like, ah, nice little piece and a couple of prospects here and there. I don't think you can do that. I think you either have to get an awesome, awesome return or go kind of all in on futures and then use the space to open it up. That's my read on it, where are you at? - Yep, and yeah, I mean, look at the Jake Gunsell trade. - No, I knew you'd do that. I'm gonna get a first round pick for the best guy available. Whoopsies. - Yeah, I knew you'd like that. - Other Dubas master class there, boys. - I was just for you. - Anyways, hey, that's just for you. I wanted to end on a good note for you. You didn't get to yell at me about Rory today, so I figured I'd throw a little Dubas shade myself. - What's going on there? We don't have time. - No, we probably don't. - I wish I don't want to hold on here, yeah. - But I don't know what's going on with professional golf. - But you know what, we got a major next week, so preview pod, we'll get one out and maybe we'll try to figure it out. By the time we talk next week to do a preview pod on Golf Show, buddy, I love you. - It would be wonderful. - What would be wonderful? - If we all beat it. - Yes. - Oh, all three of us. - That'd be nice. - You'd get a little a-ish baseball. - Definitely get an a-ish action in there. All right, all right, we're gonna talk to Wish because if you keep bringing up things like the golf and the Leafs to me, I'm never gonna stop talking to you. - Okay. - You have to go away now, sorry. - All right, bye guys. - See you, buddy. - Say hi. - Love 'em, love 'em. 10.30 is the presser today. He won't be there. He's a journalist, but he won't be there with the press pass in his hat going, "Excuse me, sir." No, that won't be his role. He'll be on Kip Rumbord today. Catch you at four o'clock on SportsNet, SportsNet 5.9 of the Fan, and SportsNet app as well. Greg Waczynski, gonna join us next. A lot to get into. What does he expect today? We've done a lot of navel gazing in the market. What's the read outside the market on the Leafs? Wish joins us next. One segment left on Fan Morning Show with Gunning and Rubenoff on SportsNet 5.9 of the Fan. Diving deep into leaps, rafters, Js, and NFL. The J.D. Bunk is podcast. Subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. (upbeat music) - If I'm borrowing any other availabilities that I do not expect it, I think the two lead contenders for this job are Greg Peroube and Todd Pafle. Now, I think Peroube has had some serious talks with New Jersey, McClellan. I think Toronto would be the fifth key that would interview McClellan over this cycle. And I think Seattle is very serious about Paflellan. So we'll see where this goes. If it goes beyond these two, I've mentioned Jay Woodbrock because truly living knows his body of work, we'll see where it goes, but I believe those are the key people that they're gonna be looking at. Those are the acceptful adults at Tones. It's Elliot Friedman. I don't know, recording that at some point last night, I think 32 thoughts dropping overnight. Somebody else was podcast. I will not get into comparing. I love all hockey podcasts. You can hear him on the drop with Arta O'Cal, Greg Wyschitzke joining us now, senior NHL writer at ESPN Wish. Always good to chat with you. How are you doing this morning? - Well, in fairness, Elliot and Jeff, like I think ours probably has more Star Wars references to references to the 1967 Sarnia Sting, but different strokes for different folks. - Yeah, and you know, Friedman rolls his eyes at all of them. So that's the best part about that right there. So obviously in these parts, coaching search is a big word going on right now. First things first, I'll get your outside of the market read on Kief. I mean, we feel like we've been through this. Will they or won't they with Kief? I don't know, two, three times in the last two, three years from looking a little bit outside. What's your read on the end of the Kief tenure here in Toronto? - Well, my read was that he would have had to do something Herculean in the post-season to keep his job because his general manager didn't hire him. So I mean, it's the simplest math you can come up with in the NHL, which is that when a general manager comes into a job, he wants his own coach there. And Sheldon Kief was not his coach. He was Kyle Dubas's coach in every way. And I think that they kept him in place to not completely upset the apple cart. And if he had won a couple of playoff rounds, maybe he gets an extension, but that's where the bar was set. The irony is that he gets the gate in what might be his best season as a coach. Like he did really, he did some heavy lifting in the regular season to keep them on the straight narrow. And then depending on who you talk to about what they did in the playoffs, there were some people that were really impressed with the tactical change and grinding out those two wins to force a game seven. So I was talking to somebody in the league recently who said they wouldn't be surprised as he Sheldon get a second chance somewhere else. And they wouldn't be surprised if this experience then turns him into a pretty good NHL coach. Wherever he goes next. - Yeah, I could easily see that that be in the case. You know, a lot of people have kind of, and it's odd, they have a coach. I don't know how you can connect those dots. A lot of people are connecting the dots to Pittsburgh there. I personally think, and again, it doesn't seem like an option. I don't know why you'd move on from Mike Sullivan. I'd certainly take them here if they're looking at doing that. But I would think Keith would want very much a new lease on life. And that's nothing to say about him and Dubas's relationship. But I just don't think he'd ever want to be seen as Dubas's kind of pet or his little project or his little brother or whatever, you know, the tandem, the robin to his Batman. However you want to look at it, like I really do feel like he'd want to be his kind of own man. And that's been my read on it. You know, there's been some connecting him to the devil's job. I imagine that'd be pretty enticing to just about anybody who'd want to look at it. So yeah, I could easily see him kind of landing somewhere else. It's just a matter of if it'll be soon. And what do you think is the right kind of team for him? Because you know, the read I had on him was that he was kind of trapped in that he is not Mr. Fluffy, players coach. But because he came in after Babcock, he kind of had to do a bit of that. What do you think will be Keith? Like the thing we talked about here is that he wasn't overly critical. He walked back some of it. And you know, I think it's easier to do a lot of that in a market that's not Toronto. What do you kind of expect from him in his next stop? What version of him do you think we'll see? - Well, first of all, I think in the case of the Dubas thing, well, like you said, I don't expect Sullivan to go anywhere. I think everyone I've talked to around that team about the availability of Mike Sullivan, especially when it came to that doubles job because there was some smoke earlier in the off season for them regarding, you know, a reunion with Tom Fitzgerald who they, you know, who worked together at the Penguins. You know, if you go and work for the guy that has your back, then you know, that guy has your back. Like there's a certain amount of security in having Kyle as the guy where your next stop is. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't, you know, poo poo that. But I also think the odds are long that there is a reunion there. The thing I'm intrigued about with Keith is like, what is the market look like that he goes to next? Everything other than Toronto is obviously gonna be lower, lower pressure and lower scrutiny. But I do wonder if like he ends up going to a place where there's, you know, two beat writers and a couple of blogs covering the team, you know, versus versus the intensity of the market. Like, I mean, Pittsburgh's a pretty intense market, you know, and you wonder if maybe his next stop is a little less of a heavy left as far as the day-to-day scrutiny goes. - Talking to Greg Wachinski of ESPN and "This Insider" brought to you by Don Valley, North Lexus, where you can expect excellence online and in the showroom, visit DonValleyNorthlexus.com. - Greg, who do you describe the majority of the blame to in the leaf situation? Obviously it's divided up amongst the roster construction and Sheldon Keefe and the players, but when you're trying to evaluate, you know, who has the most? Who would it be in that, in your estimation? - I was asked at one point yesterday to make a pie for someone, and here's my pie. - I think I have decided I started this. I know the idea of blame pie cannot be unique, but I've said it a lot and I feel like others have started saying it, so I'm just gonna take, I'm just gonna take retroactive credit for that term right here. - Well, listen, in the US, if you wrote down blame pie, put it in an envelope and mailed it to yourself, that means you trademarked it. - I don't know how I would have had it, I don't know if you should. I think what I did just now, that's good enough, I think. I don't know. - Fair enough, fair enough. I'd say 50% of the players, 25% of the coach, 25% of the construction. I think that Kyle Dubas and then for living this year, put together some rosters that should have done a lot better than they did. Like, I really do. I mean, there's obviously some functional problems on this leaf team. I mean, you know, I look at the blue line and obviously some of the makeup around the core, it has been hit or miss over the years. And the core itself, obviously, has had its problems in the postseason as well. But most of its execution, like, you know, I don't blame Sheldon Keefe, I don't blame, I don't necessarily blame the construction of the team for a power play that clicks it. Was it like 4.6% in the first round? - For one for twenty-one. - No good, yeah, whatever it was, no good. - In a playoff where, I mean, it's the specialty used playoffs this year. Like, every team that was leading the league in combined power play penalty kill advanced in the first round. So that's not on Sheldon Keefe and that's not on, you know, the construction of the team that's on the players lack of execution. And I think you've seen that time and time to get in these playoff failures is that a lot of it rests on their shoulders versus the shoulders of anybody else. - Yeah, I agree with it there. And it's just, it is tough when you ultimately, you know, it all comes back to this in Toronto. But when you have the $40 million of forwards or whatever it is, it's pretty hard to look at Guy Boucher or Sheldon Keefe or Spencer Carberry or Manny Malholture, I don't know, any, the guy opening the door at the rink, whoever they've asked for their opinion on it, pretty hard to put the blame on them when you tie up that much money in all your forwards. In terms of what comes next, big, big presser today. For us, it's the most important presser that's ever happened. I imagine it has maybe slightly less import across the league, but I think a lot of people are gonna ask questions of tri-living and Shanahan in terms of what is gonna happen next. But I think the biggest, you know, domino to fall, at least immediately, is this coaching head searched? Do you have a read on where the Leafs are at? I mean, we heard the Freedman clip coming in. And do you have a name that you think makes more sense, maybe than others for this job? - Peru makes a really good choice if they can get him. 'Cause I think that his best asset, it's his ability to kind of keep a team focused and try to shut out the outside noise. I mean, that's basically that and Jordan Vittington are the reasons why the Blues want to cop that year. I mean, that's the way that that is. - Let me ask you two kind of many follow-ups on that. One, the intention I've made on Peru Bay is fine. I don't disagree. I am not as gung-ho on him as others, but I think he is a fine choice. I just think they should have done it in January. Like, that's what he's proven he's capable of doing. I would have pushed the button then. And then the other thing is you mentioned the in terms of if they can get him. Do you think that's an issue of moving quick enough? Or do you think that's an issue of Peru Bay? Maybe saying, okay, like if my choices are Jersey or Toronto, it's like, yeah, both got good. Both got good rosters. Maybe one's a little less of a headache than the other. I've wondered aloud. I think the Leafs job is a good one. I think a lot of people look at that talent and say, yes, give me that. I know I can extract more out of that. But I also think that there is probably an element of people wondering if that's something they really, really want. How is the Leafs job viewed by these guys? And I guess maybe a little differently now that it's actually open. - I don't know how they view it, but I know how they should view it. And they should view it as a good job because one, every coach that's been there has gotten a real decent run of years to try to make it work. Because two, there's a lot of delusion in the market. And so far, it's like, hey, we came close. We'll come back at it. I mean, there were people making the argument that Keith should have been fired because of how they went out. They lost, and again, they lost. They won one playoff round during his tenure there. But because of the way they lost, it was like, well, maybe you run it back? And so when that's the mindset, you're gonna get a several seasons of job security in Toronto. And then the other thing about the job that I think, I truly wonder if coaches, you know, understand or appreciate is, the bar is low. I mean, if you play in the conference final, they're already molding a statue for you. - Don't say it, but you would be a god. Don't say it out loud, but you would be. - Precisely, so like, for me, if I'm a coach, I'm always looking at like where the bar is set, you know, like what can I do that is gonna make me look better than the previous guy? And so if that's the mindset, then Toronto's a pretty plum gig on top of the fact that, you know, you're coaching awesome Matthews, so. But to go back to the original question, like, Bruvay's a guy, but, you know, I know it's out there and I know people have written about it. I know there's talk about it on other podcasts and stuff, but like the Quenville thing is just sitting there. - Okay, and per, I wanted to ask you about this. Well, let me just point playing cast this. If the Leafs, if they have decided that that's their man, and we have no reason to believe that they would, can they hire Joel Quenville? What is this purgatory or, you know, mushy space he is in? 'Cause I think people have a, I myself have a lack of understanding if he needs to be reinstated, if it's just a matter of asking, if it's a rubber stamp. What is the status of him? If the Leafs had decided that's our man, that's who we want, could they go hire him? - He's not cleared. - Yeah, basically it would have to be, you know, someone goes and asks the league, can we hire this guy? And then there has to be a conversation between him and Gary Beckman about it. That's at least my understanding. But I wrote about this yesterday in my, you know, my long list of coaches piece on ESPN where I kind of explored the entirety of the coaching pool, which you could check out. It's, you know, the names that are available and more of the outside-the-box names that could be available. But I had a NHL source tell me that, you know, they theorized that if the Leafs came asking, then the league would tell you. And they theorized that because Glenville's been doing some interviews. They theorized that because there's been several, you know, seasons since he resigned from Florida. They've got some distance from that. I'm still shocked by it because I, you know, there's active litigation against the Blackhawks over the 2010 sexual assault scandal that obviously is, you know, part and parcel to why Glenville's not in the league. And then just personally, I just found, you know, that whole situation so abhorrent and his role in it so abhorrent, I'd rather not see the guy coach again. But I mean, I, again, there's always going to be speculation. Like last year, there was speculation about him and the Rangers and it ended up being nothing. And in fact, they're fine. Like, like the Rangers are pretty good right now. But this one is interesting and this one is different. And I think in talking about Source, like the vibe I got was like, it's the right team asks, you know, maybe they say yes. And I think that when you are, you know, MLSE, you might have more sway than others. So that's interesting because I have, I have long worked under and unlike you, I've not been talking to a source. I have been talking to myself about this. But I have long worked under the assumption that the league would never say this. They would never write it in a memo. I don't even know if they'd say it in front of like a cell phone, in case the mic is on. But I've worked under the assumption that it'd be the exact opposite. Yes, the Leafs have a lot of sway. They are also the team that generates the most content one way or another. And if they could pick their spot, I mean, you know, pick generic Mark Anaheim or whatever it is, I would think it'd be some place way more like that than it would be a place like Toronto. I it's interesting to hear you say the opposite because I, I mean, I've been wondering just one more thing before you get in here. I've been wondering if what we were going to hear at this press conference at 1030 is the name of Joel Quenville as the coaches that they're wondering about is a way to kind of fan those flames and put pressure on the league. That that's been my kind of theory or prevailing thought anyways. Yeah, I was going to say, like, tell me more about that. Because I feel like, you know, if they if they want to reinstate them, they want to reinstate them in a place where, you know, there's going to be success that could be some way benefit the league. Well, I just think I think it would be a better story for them. If like, I don't know, Utah is just like the team on my brain, where they he picks a team that is a young core and he builds them up. And hey, look at this. Actually, maybe they don't want the redox of a building up a young team into champions. Maybe that's a little too close. But I just think that the idea of the first step back being in Toronto, there is no brighter flame. I agree with you. I don't think they want it to be some, you know, backwater poster, you know, a place that's not thought of in the league. I think you're right. But I think it'd be more about finding the kind of perfect middle than going right to the top of the place that generates the most conversation about it. Because we, I mean, even as Rangers headcoats, that would have been a massive story. It's still not becoming the Leafs head coach. I'm like, again, this, a lot of this is speculation. A lot of this is is an if they do it, then then this could happen type thing. I mean, by don't means is anybody saying that they've asked, because we don't know. Happy you could jump on that in, yeah. But they may not. But like the most intriguing thing for me is, is what is the reaction? This is the same conversation I had when, when the Rangers were in the mix for him allegedly last year, which is that, you know, if the NHL reinstates him, then they, they get most of the heat for doing it. And from people who don't want him in the league again. Right. And they're making the call and that helps out whatever team is hiring him. Because yeah, that team that's hiring him, they're going to have to take a PR hit. Because there's a lot of people that don't want to see him back in the league. And there's going to be a lot of questions that this guy's going to have to answer on a regular basis in perpetuity about, about what his staff is doing and what are the things that you've put in place to prevent horrible things from happening to your players. But I do, I found it interesting to think about like how the NHL has positioned itself in the Quenville situation to be the arbiter of whether he's back or not. And in doing so, there's a certain amount of heat that they'll attract that will be detracted from the team that does eventually end up hiring him if he ever comes back. Yeah, that is a man that is, that's fascinating. I can't wait to see how that plays out. Who knows what we'll get today again, 10 30 can hear right here on sports net, sports net five, nine of the fan and wish could get your pods wherever you get them to drop with Arta O'Cal. And again, check out that coaching tiers piece on ESPN.com as well. I imagine that will be getting a ton of play over the next couple of days. Wish always love chatting with you. Thanks so much for jumping on. Hey, thanks for having me. There he goes. Greg Waczynski, senior NHL writer at ESPN and that insider brought to you by Don Valley, North Lexus, where you can expect excellence online. And in the showroom, visit Don Valley, North Lexus.com. That is fascinating. I have, again, I have worked under the exact opposite assumption just from using my brain. It's where it's inside my skull. I'm not saying it's the best one. It's the only one I got. But common sense to me would be that you would want the least amount of noise around it as possible. And the other thing is, is that wherever this happens, it does become a news story for a day, a week, however long because of the tie to the Blackhawks of it all. And I think that obviously in a market like Toronto, there's just more of that swirling around the team is general in general, more of that being attention to media pressure. So I have worked from the opposite assumption. I think that is fascinating from Waczynski that he, somebody he's talked to is, is feeling the opposite way. Yeah, I do feel like Quenville, if you're looking for options is probably in the upper echelon. Like we talked about Brenda Moore for sure, John Cooper, like I would throw Quenville right up there and see that comes with significant baggage. And you have to figure out the whole process. You just talked about it. But I do think given the credentials, like that is a guy that you absolutely, it's not a godfather offer, so to speak, but he is up there among the top three. Well, the other, the other thing that's interesting is something wish brought up in there as well is that he has been doing the rounds. Like this is not a guy who is disinterested in coaching. You know, he went on Andy Strickland's podcast. I know, I know he's done a couple others as well. I think he might have even done a, done a local pod here. But I look at it and that's clearly a guy who wants back in and it's impossible not to see what he did with a young group. Now he had Candon Taves way younger than Matthews and Marner are now. They had done their winning at this point in their career. That part can't be kind of overstated. But I think there is an element of wanting a guy who can come in and say I've done it, be it as a player, be it as a coach, rings on the table. You know, we bandied about the name Patrick Waugh. He had the two of them plugging his ear. But, but I think you need a guy that can come in and say, I think it has added credence. If you could do it as a player as well. But the idea of somebody coming in and being, and Quenville's a guy who knows it. Like he was a leaf. He understands what it, what it means to be in this market. I, I can't wait to see what we're going to see at 10 30 today. Again, Shanahan, Tra Living, Pelly, pretty fascinating that Pelly wanted to be a, wanted to be a part of, of this presser today. So he didn't want to be there for no reason. I'm sure he wanted to show face. I'm sure he wants to answer a question or two as well. I cannot wait to hear that. Bunk is coming up next. What would be the most shocking thing for you that happens today? Like I said, if Keith Pelly just comes out and says, yeah, like Shanahan, it's got to be better. No, that wouldn't surprise me at all. The most surprising thing would be him firing bread and Shanahan in front of us or announcing Joel Quenville as a head coach. I think those are the two most shocking things and I don't think we're going to see either of them. What I know you're going to hear is J.D. Bunk is storming in these doors very soon. If I don't stop talking, Rubes, always fun, fun getting on here, fun doing this and Ben's not here. So I'll just say it myself. Good morning. [Music]
