VIEWPOINT with Chuck Crismier
EX-MUSLIM ON CHRISTIANITY
Hey man. This is Viewpoint with Attorney and Author Chuck Chris Meyer. Viewpoint is a one hour talk show confronting the issues of America's heart and home. And now with today's edition of Viewpoint here is Chuck Chris Meyer. The days of Europe in the 1700s they were called Muslims. The Mohammedans actually, Mohammedans. And so the language or the actual religion of the Mohammedans was called Muhammadadism. And then along came, well the 1800s and then the 1900s and gradually over time we see Muhammadadism referred to as Islam and those who worship Islam as Muslims. And so today on Viewpoint we're going to be talking with one who was a Muslim, is not a Muslim today and who is going to give us a guide to the Muslim understanding of Christianity and the Christian's understanding of Islam and why and how she came to receive Jesus Christ as her Lord and Savior. Her purpose in coming before us here today is not to antagonize, but rather to encourage and strengthen those who at one time did claim to be Muslim and now do not. But rather he claimed to be followers of Jesus Christ. Now to claim to be a father of Jesus Christ after once being a Muslim is a very dangerous thing friends because it's called apostasy and in Islam apostasy doesn't just send you to hell, it sends you directly there. Don't go to jail, don't pass 200 daughters, get killed. That's what it's about, Sharia law, instant, sovereign judgment even by your own family. So it's a very dangerous thing to consider converting to Christ if you're a Muslim, particularly if you're living in a Muslim country. But how about those who are living in America for instance, did you know that today it's deemed that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and perhaps some would say even in America. You know what it is? It's because Christians are killing their children, but Muslims are not. So the birth rate among Muslims in the world is exceeding that so-called former Christians who would have ever thunk it. But today on Viewpoint we're to talk about a whole lot of things related to Islam related to what it means to be a Muslim, what it means to have been a Muslim. And our special guest today, I'm looking at her eyes real carefully right now, beautiful eyes. For all I can see and that's about all they want women's to be seen at least in the world of Islam. But today I see not only her eyes, but I've heard her heart and today on Viewpoint she's joining us. Her name is Kenza Haddock, Kenza it's so good to have you on the program. Thank you so much for having me. Well you have quite an interesting story. You were raised in Casablanca, Morocco. Now a lot of people would think that was a pretty romantic thing, Casablanca, Morocco, who wouldn't want to be there? Who wouldn't want to be raised there? How about you? Yes, actually I get that a lot. A lot of people, yeah, I get that a lot, and I think they get it from the movie. It's like well, the reality is a little bit different. That's the first time one who was Muslim, yes. Well you know we get a lot of glory out of there, wasn't it Princess Grace from Morocco? And she got all kinds of glory all over the world? Was it? I think so, yeah. But anyway, you were there and you're like a princess in the Kingdom of God, Kenza Haddock. And Kenza, what does your name mean, do you know? It means treasure. Do you know I call my wife my treasure all the time? So maybe I should call her Kathy Kenza. Amen. It means treasure. Well you're a treasure before the Lord. And he sees you that way, whether or not your parents see you that way. So how old were you when you actually came into a true relationship with Jesus Christ? I was 24 years old, I was 24, I was 23 when I had a dream about Jesus, but I was 24. Okay, you were 20? I actually gave my life. Okay, and when you came to the States, how old were you? I was 12. So you were still a Muslim when you came to the States? Oh, yes. And how did that work for you? Were you well received as a Muslim in the States at that time? So ironically, I moved to the States, my family and I moved to the States a month before 9/11. Wow. But just imagine, yeah, it was not the best time to move to the States. I mean, it's understandably so, but I can see where it was. Yeah, it was very difficult. I could imagine, but here's what happened. And what's so astounding is that even though 19 Islamic renegades, mostly from Saudi Arabia attacked the United States and its economic center, its governmental center and its military center, even though that happened at almost 3,000 Americans lost their lives, still the aftermath of that turned the whole nation almost in favor of Islam as a minority to be glorified. How do you make like that? How do you make of that? That makes it makes no sense. I know it doesn't make any sense, but that's what happened. Yeah, I mean, especially looking at what's going on in the news, and if we have time, I can break down what's going on in the campuses. Well, sure, why don't you just go ahead and sense that you're mentioning it. We don't want to spend all our time there, but sure, go ahead. Yeah, absolutely. But when it comes to the Israel and Palestinian war and riots, there are two issues at hand. So, Muslims, it goes back to Isaac and Ishmael. Sure. So, Muslims believe that Ishmael was the chosen one, not Isaac. In other words, they believe that the Bible is misstated and should be rewritten. Oh, that's what they believe. Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. So the promise was not made to Isaac, it was made to Ishmael, and all of history now has fallen apart because the Bible is misstated. Well, think about it, based on this wrong perception, they believe that Israel belongs to Ishmael's descendants. They don't believe that it belongs to Israel when it does. Mm-hmm. Well, that's a pretty fundamental difference, that is, isn't it? Oh, absolutely. And so, we say here on this program, every day, viewpoint determines destiny, and that's exactly what you're saying. Those viewpoints actually are what are determining destiny, and there's nothing that anybody can do to change those viewpoints because they're so deeply ingrained except the Spirit of the Lord, right? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, this second issue, which builds on the first one, is since Muslims believe that Israel belongs to the Palestinians, they expect, they expect Jews to basically back down in any nation that the allies with them to back down from their claim of Israel or else. They sold the Quran, so there is a, in the Quran, there's book two verses 190 to 198. It gives a progressive message about what's on how to handle a matter like this. All right, we'll get back to you after this. Once upon a time, children could pray and read their Bibles in school. Divourses were practically unknown as was child abuse. In our once great America, virginity and chastity were popular virtues and homosexuality was an abomination. So what happened in just one generation? Hi, I'm Chuck Chris Mar and I urge you to join me daily on viewpoint where we discuss the most challenging issues touching our hearts and homes. Could America's moral slide relate to the fourth commandment? Listen to viewpoint on this radio station or anytime at save us dot o-r-g. Again, I welcome you back to viewpoint friends. The book today, the ex-muslims guide to Christianity, $12 is going to put it in your hands. It's on our website, save us dot o-r-g, save us dot org, or you can call us at 1-800-Save USA, 1-800-Save USA or write to us as Save America Ministries, PO Box 70879, which been Virginia, two, three, two, five, five, writing a check at $5 for postage and handling. Again, the ex-muslims guide to Christianity. In other words, Kenza today is sharing a viewpoint that we need to hear. Not only do we who are not Muslims need to hear it, but those who are formerly Muslims need to hear it. Those who are, shall we say, considering or thinking or feel like they're being drawn to faith in Christ need to hear it. Kenza Haddock, our special guest today on viewpoint. Kenza, you were sharing with us about what's going on there in Israel, the viewpoint. There are two viewpoints, and the last one was that Islam believes that Israel has no right to the land, that the land belongs to the physical descendants of Ishmael, and therefore by definition then, Israel must be removed from the land or destroyed, and that any nation who supports Israel must likewise receive some serious consequences from Allah. What kind of consequences? Yes, so book two verses 190 and 198, if anyone wants to look it up, actually verse 193 says quite them, them refers to infidels, anybody who doesn't claim Allah, and it says there is, so that there's no more, no, which means that F-I-T-N-A means anybody who doesn't worship Allah. In other words, eradicate all infidels of those who don't worship Allah. Yes. They don't deserve to live, they don't deserve to be on the face of the earth, so they must either be defeated by the sword or must be submitted to the most horrendous taxation system so that they would never, ever be able to prosper on the earth. Yes, that's why when I see the riots that are happening, I'm like, how is this even allowed? You can see they have no concept whatsoever about Islam, they have no concept, all they are is carrying on a cause that they want to identify with, but they're being led into it by deceivers. And so it's the most astounding thing you could ever imagine happening in the United States of America, but it is happening and the anti-Semitism that's filling out all over the world from it is ultimately going to metastasize into persecution of Christians. And that's where we are today, it's pretty amazing, but that's where we are, I have a question for you, were you part of Sheehite or Shia Islam? I mean, Sunni, or yeah, yeah, now, Sunni does not embrace the Madi, right? Yes, no, no, okay, that's the Iranian version, the Madi, the Islamic Messiah. So doesn't Islam though believe in some sort of a messianic deliverance? Some sort of a messianic hope that the whole world is going to come under Sharia law and Allah will rule supreme, let's say you. So yes, and not in the way that we as believers understand it, it is so distorted in Islam. So as a Muslim, my understanding of life was that I was here for a predetermined amount of years and throughout life I was to complete five pillars of Islam, right? And the pillars were like praying five times a day, fast in 30 days, you know, that's Ramadan given to Islamic missions, but there was no assurance of salvation, talk about living with anxiety. Really? And so I believe that one day I would die not knowing whether I was going to heaven or hell and stand before Allah who would weigh my deeds on a scale of judgment, whichever deeds outweighed the other determined whether I went to heaven or hell. Now once I got sentenced, that's to answer your question, let's just say based on their belief system, if someone was sentenced to hell later on after that somebody in the form of a messianic person was going to come and save them. Interesting. Wow, that part I never heard, that part I never heard. So there's so much strangeness, no wonder a lot of the young men want to be martyrs, they're crusading to be martyrs, because at least they're going to have the assurance of 70 virgins in heaven. That's the only way to get assurance is through being a martyr. That's the only way. So that's why they're crusading for that. That's why parents in Gaza are trying to cheer their kids on to kill themselves. Yes, unfortunately, yes, unbelievable. Okay. So what is it then that drew you since you grew up as a Muslim until 23 years of age, what is it then that God in his mercy did to get ahold of your heart and bring change? I, so based on my belief system, I had so much anxiety and Islam also teaches that any negative circumstances that happen in your life are a direct punishment or direct result of Allah punishing that person. Okay. So having experienced trauma in the household I was growing up in, by the age of 23, I was convinced that Allah hated me, who I believed was God hated me. And so, you know, the God of my understanding at the time, I mean, imagine feeling that the very person you're trying to please hate you. I mean, that drew me in a depression into a depression. I felt hopeless. I was very depressed. I like, I couldn't even get out of my head for weeks to the point where I contemplated and in my life, why go through five prayers a day and all of this when you're convinced that Allah hates you? Because if you don't, then that adds to the bad deeds that are going to count against your own judgment. So the only way you can deliver yourself at all is by persisting with the rituals, yet that provides no real hope for salvation. There wasn't a hope, but even during those prayers, it wasn't talking to anyone. It's just repeating these, these verses, that's all you're doing. Okay. All right. So, you come to 23 years of age and something happened. What happened? I was sitting on the couch and I just decided I'm throwing out all of the Islamic rituals. And was this in your family's home or somewhere else? Yes. Okay. You're in your family's home. They're Muslims died in the world, Muslims from Morocco. And now you're sitting there on the couch and throwing out what? All of the Islamic rituals, I was like, I'm not going to, to perform prayer. I just threw myself on the ground and cried, I just cried out to whoever was going to hear me. Okay. God, I know you hate me. I know I have no favor with you. Just show me the way to you. I was so desperate at the time and honestly looking back, I can't believe I did it because I was raised to not even, that was still audacious to even talk to anyone that way. Right. Exactly. I mean, that was, that was virtual apostasy, wasn't it? Oh, yes. Yeah. Oh, yes. I was, I wasn't in a desperate state. I cried myself to sleep that night and that night I had a dream that forever changed my life. I had a dream that it was the end times and in my dream, I was looking out of the window and I saw the sky open and a man in a white robe be sending from the sky. And as I watched him coming down, I knew this man was Jesus. Really, commonly called ESA within Islam, it's, yes, but here's the thing. He was coming down. I mean, I can even see him now clear as that, like just remembering, like he was coming down with authority and imagine my whole life, I lived with anxiety for that moment. All of that anxiety went away and I felt this piece I had never felt in my life. Wow. And I knew this man, Jesus, was the real deal. And as I was looking at him, I woke up and I wish I could tell you I woke up, gave my life to Jesus and everything was great, but unfortunately that wasn't the case. Right. But what I'm hearing is anecdotal evidence reports from all over the world and most particularly from the Middle East of Muslims, Gazans, Iranians, perhaps Indonesians, Muslims, all over the world who are having a similar kind of vision, Jesus coming to them because they don't know where else to go. They're very in a virtual prison of Allah himself. Oh, yes, yes. So do you believe those reports? Oh, absolutely, absolutely, I do because, I mean, yeah, because Islam is founded on the belief that that repudiates that Jesus is the Son of God. But when he shows up in front of you, you can't deny him. Wow. Okay. So I believe it. I brought up something really important because in reality, you say in your book that the most serious sin of all in Islam is to say that God has a son. Oh, yes, that Jesus is the son of God. Why is that deemed to be the most serious sin of all the ultimate blasphemy worthy of death? Why? Because that is the foundation of Islam. That's why I mentioned that Islam is one of the devil's tools and honestly, you know, when Jesus died on the cross for our sins, I feel like the devil lost the huge war. Okay. No wonder Jesus said it's finished. Absolutely, absolutely. Like Colossians, I go back to Colossians two, 15, it says, Jesus, the son of the powers and authorities, right, and made a spectacle of them trying to over them by the cross. Now take that about 600 years later, you have this man by the name of Muhammad who's in a cave and he gets a false revelation from the enemy really in an attempt to stop the spread of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And the enemy basically tells Muhammad to go and say, Oh, no, no, no, Jesus is not the son of God. No, no, no, he didn't get crucified. No, he didn't, he didn't die and he didn't rise. And so, I mean, like, why would he say that? Is it because he wanted to exalt himself as the new savior of the world? Is there any reason why he would have said that or was it just such a diametrically opposed diabolical vision to kind of undo everything that God was doing in the earth? I truly believe that he was trying to undo what God was trying to do because he basically put his Muhammad's followers and future followers back under the yoke of spiritual slavery. Because, I mean, think about it, compare what Muhammad was saying to the claims or Muhammad's claims with 1 John 4, 3, which says if anyone claims to be a prophet and does not acknowledge the truth about Jesus, that person's not from God. Such person has the spirit of the antichrist. I mean, I believe Muhammad has the spirit of the antichrist. Which means by implication, those who are following him are following the spirit of antichrist. Absolutely. That's a pretty serious statement, but it's biblical. Well, I think it is biblical. I believe when I was following him, I was following the spirit of the antichrist. I do believe that. The problem is that the majority of people, the 1.6 billion people who still are following Islam, don't realize they're following the spirit of antichrist. They're in a virtual, spiritual prison, unable to see the truth of what is really going on. Yeah. Absolutely. Wow. You had quite a deliverance. So when did you actually come to the place? How long was it after you threw yourself on the floor and cried out for help and had the vision, did you embrace Jesus Christ as your morning savior and make that commitment for your life? Answer the question after this break. Our special guest, Kenza Haddock, the ex-muslims guide to Christianity, friends, I think you might want to get a copy of this book. You might have Muslim friends, neighbors, and so on. Or someone who came to Christ beneath the encouraging $12 on our website, save us.org. There is so much more about Chuck Chris Meyer and Save America Ministries. On our website, save us.org. For example, under the marriage section, God has marriage on his mind. Chuck has some great resources to strengthen your marriage. First off, a fact sheet on the state of the marital union, a fact sheet on the state of ministry, marriage, and morals, save us.org, marriage divorce and remarriage. What does the Bible really teach about this? Find all of this at save us.org. Also, a letter to pastors, the Hosea Project, save us.org. And many more resources to strengthen your marriage. It's all on Chuck's website, save us.org. Again, you can listen to Chuck's viewpoint broadcast live and archive, save America Ministries website at save us.org. The Bible says our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers and the workers of evil and exalted in dark places. And so today, even as we talk about Islam, even as we talk about the people who are following Islam, what we're not doing is carrying on a diatribe of anger and malice toward such people. That's not what we're doing. What we're doing is taking a look at the issues presented by Islam and why or why not they should be of great concern. And if a person has once followed Islam and now is following Jesus Christ, they're facing continued thoughts, maybe fears, within, without, and so this book is for them. And it's for you too, because we're all involved in this environment in which we find ourselves, in which George W. Bush, two weeks after the 9/11 event proclaimed on national television around the world, the Jews, Muslims, and Christians all worship the same God. Talk about confusion. He is the one that laid the foundation for the spread of Islam as a result of the 9/11 events, unbelievable, unbelievable, but that's what he did. Now our guest today, Kenza Hana, remember her first name means treasure, don't forget it, Kenza, going back to the break, what's say you in response? It took me about 10 months to give my life to Jesus. During that time, I went to the library, I was discreet, and my research, I wanted to know who, just the guy that was going to be following, because it's a big decision. Oh man, huge. It's not going to be celebrated, you know, let's take you out to lunch. And Sharia law is clear that apostates should be given an invitation to return to Islam. And if not, the penalty is death. And so, yeah, one day I just said, okay, I am moving for safety reasons. I moved to South Carolina, and I thought you had a southern accent. I heard my testimony, I did a testimony video on first year in South Carolina, and I did one recently, and I was like, wow, I did take up a southern accent. That's cute. So you're a southern accent ex-Muslim, okay, all right, that's pretty good. So you don't have an identity crisis, you're just everything to everybody. Oh, all right, that's great. Okay, so you came to the Lord 10 months later, and you must have had to be concerned because your family, did they know what you were engaged in? Did they know that you were seriously considering converting to Christ? No, because if I had told them they would not have, they wouldn't have let me leave. Because honor killings still do happen in the United States. Yes, they do. I mean, you know, we would love to say no, they don't, but there are plenty of documentaries that prove otherwise. And that's a scary thing. So what you were making is a statement of faith for me to live is Christ, but to die is gain, because you could have just had an honor killing. In fact, your mom and your brother came after you, right? Yes, yes, they did. What did they try to do? Tell us about it. Oh, it was so scary, Chuck. I remember it was a few years into my walk with Jesus, you know, and I was still in the middle of unlearning who I believed God or Allah was, so I'm still trying to tip to around the throne of grace instead of like walking boldly. And so I'm, you know, I'm married at the time. I had met my husband and I'm pregnant with our first born. Was he Muslim? No, no, we met at church when I moved to South Carolina. Okay. Yes. So he's a believer and yeah, we were at home and it wasn't knocking, it was more like banging on the door, windows and I look out the window and it's my mom and my brother. And I, I mean, I was paralyzed with fear because this was the first time they had tracked the sound and my husband was going to go out and just talk to them. And I was like, no, see, the reality is you will not make it alive. So we, in my thought processes, we have to have this on the record. And unfortunately, just to be honest, and if I can be honest, calling 911, I felt like I had to be politically correct, being honest and saying, here's the reality. My family is out here trying to kill me in an honor killing. Yes. Yes. Oh, we don't believe in that. Yes. Yes. I mean, like I felt like I'm, I mean, this is the first time they came after me. I'm hiding under a desk as if a desk is going to protect me. In the United States of America, yeah, and you're afraid to call 911 and tell the truth. Yes. Yes, because I'm like, I have to be politically correct. So I tried to make it as politically correct as possible while shaking. And the police officer was so nice when he came and he explained to them that in the United States, we have freedom of religion. And you know, they need to just leave and not come back. And they've come back and then they've taken, oh, yes, they've taken pictures of our cars, and those days, my husband and I have a counseling practice and they've, different family members have shown up post as patients just to act like they were patients just so that I can come out so they can find me. Oh, wow. I mean, different, different ways, but through the years, so it's like the Muslim CIA out to get you. Oh, yes, because they believe their eternity is at stake. See, that's why honor killing happened. The Quran says, if you lose one of one of your people, you better get them back. And if you don't, then you're going to have to answer for it. Wow. They're determined. I think people have no concept. They just don't have any concept of that. Now, let's be real honest about this. In America, we have currently somewhere around 65% of the country that claims to be Christian. 20 years ago, it was 85%. Today is 65%. But then when you look at those who profess to be Christians, sometimes you never know that they were really Christians. They just claim to be Christians. So they're what you might call cultural Christians. There are a lot of cultural Muslims out there, too, aren't there? They aren't really following Islam. They're not really following Allah. They're just cultural Muslims, right? Oh, yes. There are many, like, lukewarm Muslims. They're not out. They stay away from political conversations. They're not out to hurt anyone. Right. They're from, like, a spiritual perspective. When I was Muslim, you look at them and think they're just trying to get by. Basically. They're trying to skate by as Muslims, but they're not real Muslims because if they were real Muslims, they'd be doers of the word of Muhammad and not here as only. Yes. Okay. Absolutely. So the same is true with Christians. We're either doers of the word or we're not. We either believe. We don't just believe in Jesus. We have to believe Him. And then we conform. Our lives have to conform to the word, the will and the ways of the Lord. Right. Absolutely. So the same is true for Muslims, but what if they don't? How are we supposed to respond to the cultural Muslim? So like if they're like, how do we reach? How do we reach them or? Well, that's one, that's one question. I would say definitely practice hospitality because the Muslims who will come over and befriend you are not typically the ones who are going to be the extremist. Right. They won't be practice hospitality. And I would definitely say be in prayer because we never see God created everyone. We were all made in the image of God, even though they don't believe that they were made in the image of God, that's another discrepancy. God knows what's in their heart. God knows what's going on, be put in them. God knows what they need to hear. And He can use that person to reach them. And so just be in prayer. It may be one conversation that confirms something that God has been tugging at their heart with. But I'll tell you this, Chuck, when I had the dream about Jesus 10 months later, I shared that dream with my Christian friend, not with a Muslim friend. I can imagine why. Yes. Yeah. So like if all the Christians stayed away from me, who was I going to reach out to? Good point, very good point. So to a certain extent, a Christian who truly loves the Lord is not going to fear, is not going to walk in fear of death, is not going to walk in fear because as the Scripture says, perfect love casts out fear. So absolutely. I think to a certain extent, there's so much about what's happened with regard to Islam. And Hamas and Iran and all of these things that people, even Christians, are terrified. They're in fear. And so it paralyzes us from truly being God's ambassadors, even where we are. Yeah, yeah. All right, so what do you say to those ex-Muslims who, like you, have, I don't want to use the word transition because that brings in all other ideas and thoughts who have made the decision been converted. It took me a second. I was like, what? You know what I'm talking about. You've got to be really careful with your words these days. So you've made the decision you have consecrated your life to Jesus Christ. Now what do you say to them after this break? The book friend, the ex-Muslims guide to Christianity, $12 on our website, sameos.org. Call us 1-800-SAVE USA. Very important. Very important. We'll be back. Have you ever considered what the early church was like? Many people are developing a heart longing for a greater fulfillment in our practices as Christians. A recent study showed 53,000 people a week are leaving the back door of America's churches in frustration. What is going on? Why has there not been even a 1% gain among followers of Christ in the last 25 years? Could it be that God is seeking to restore first-century Christianity for the 21st century? Jesus said, "I'll build my church." Is Christ by His Spirit stirring to prepare the church for the 21st century? The early church prayed together and broke bread from house to house. They were family, and it was said by all who observed, "Behold how they love one another." Incredible. But the same can be found right now. Go to saveos.org and click sell church. We can revive first-century Christianity for the 21st century. It's about people, not programs. It's about a body. Not a building. Just saveos.org, click sell church. Again, I welcome you back to Viewpoint Friends. Years ago, I had to transact some business at FedEx in Richmond, Virginia. The gentleman that I was dealing with, and I'm not sure quite how we connected, but he identified himself as a Muslim. The course of things, because I knew quite a bit about Islam and had done a number of programs concerning it and so on, and was very fascinated in his viewpoints and so on. We had conversations over a period of time. We actually became very friendly, very friendly. One day, he said to me, "You know what, Mr. Chris Meyer, I perceive that you are truly a godly man." Wow. That was coming from a Muslim. That was very concerning to me that not long after that, the dear man disappeared. Come to find out, he fled to Muslim territory in Minnesota. I was really disappointed because I felt that we were making headway as shall we say friendly people that God could use in our lives. There are other people like that. There are other people like that, friends. Please be sensitive to those people. Who knows but what you are come to the kingdom for such a time as this to touch their life. Who knows? Our special guest today, Kenza Haddock, Kenza, you've read this book to ex-Muslims, their guide to Christianity. So what are the prominent things, the most prominent things that you feel like you need to say, to strengthen, to encourage, to build up former Muslims who now are seeking to walk with Christ? The main thing that I would say is get to know the triune God, get to know Yahweh. Learn how to fellowship with the Holy Spirit, understand the Bible, get a study Bible. That is huge. You have to walk with God. They might want to listen to this program too, what do you think? Just put a little plug in there. Yes, God's character and just your understanding of God has been distorted and it's going to take time to unlearn it, it's going to take time, it's not going to take just one year or two years, it's going to take years. There are still things that I still have to unlearn and relearn. Like what? Give us two or three illustrations of things that are most difficult or troubling for you. The greatest one I think I had to overcome was associating something negative happening in my life. Just for example, I was driving down the road, I got a speeding ticket, and my first thought was, what did I do that made God mad that caused this police officer to get married? Oh my goodness. So in other words, there were no natural consequences to certain things, everything had to have a negative cause and effect. Oh yes. Wow, that's living under a serious blanket of anxiety and even terror. Yes, oh yes, and even if I'm walking and I trip and fall, what did I do that caused the God, and it's like you have to replay your whole day, which sin caused God to allow this to happen, or really in Islam, it's to cause this to happen. And so yes, that was- Do you think that's the universal thinking within Islam? Yes, definitely. Really? It's the karmic. Yes, definitely. Karma, yeah. Uh huh. Wow. Yeah. Very interesting. That's one aspect that I have not become familiar with, and I appreciate you're bringing that to attention here. So what else has troubled you, that you would like to talk to other ex-Muslims about? Understand the difference between conviction and condemnation, because- Very important. Yes. Because Muslims believe they have two angels, one to the right, one to the left, recording their deeds. Obviously, as you mentioned earlier, Chuck, Jesus said it is finished, the veil was torn. We can approach the throne of grace at this point, we're children of the living God, right? Right. Holy Spirit in us, for years, I saw the Holy Spirit as a mercenary. I didn't see Him as- Really? Yes, I was scared of the Holy Spirit, because I saw Him as basically He's here to tell on me. Okay. Well, He is here to convict of sin and of righteousness, but He's also here to comfort and to teach, to inform, to encourage us in righteousness, that's the Holy Spirit. Absolutely. So you only saw one half of the Holy Spirit. You didn't see the whole person. Absolutely. Oh. It's only- Yes, I only focused on God is holy, right? Uh-huh. But I didn't see the God is merciful also. I needed to see it as two sides of the same coin. Right. You know, God is holy. He's also merciful. So, yes. You know what the problem with most Christians in this country is, are many? They see God only as merciful, but not holy. Come on, that's true, bottom what's wrong. Is that right? Yes. Yes. Can you see that as an ex-Muslim? The Christians see God as primarily merciful in this country, but not holy. Listen, we honestly, one of these days we should do, we can do a whole segment on that. I see it all the time in counseling, yes. In counseling? Yes. So, the nature of your counseling is it primarily with ex-muslims or is it just a universal kind of family counseling? What is it? It's interesting, God called me into the field of counseling once after I gave my life to Jesus. So, I measured in clinical counseling and then certified in pastoral counseling. What's interesting is now I get to see people with trauma or anxiety, really my specialty is trauma, but so many of my patients have a distorted understanding of who God is. And so, it's interesting how that was my whole life and not the field I get to. Isn't that interesting? So, God has put you in a place with a purpose, called you to the kingdom for such a time as this, and you're blooming where you're planted, and he's using your experiences in order to minister into the life of others who are traumatized by false thinking and a false beliefs about God and about themselves and so on. You know I was thinking about this, you mentioned condemnation, and what I find in the church today is people will go to the book of Romans where Paul says, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus." Well, that's not all he says though. He says, "Who walked not after the flesh, but after the spirit." So, the problem that we have is American Christians have exactly the opposite viewpoint. They do not see the Holy Spirit as bringing conviction. They always interpret that as condemnation and therefore reject it. Therefore, there's no conviction of sin. And when there's no conviction of sin, you've got to explain it all away and say, "Oh, well, God loves me so much that it doesn't matter that much. He knows my heart." Well, he sure does know your heart. That's the problem. What is it? In Jeremiah? It's the heart of man who's desperately wicked who can know it. Yeah. You know what? You have a refreshing spirit. You really do. Thank you. And I appreciate that. Of course, the Southern accent doesn't hurt. And coming from Casablanca, I mean, who can actually turn away somebody with a Southern twang that came from Casablanca? So, you have kids? Yes, I have a four-year-old and almost seven-year-old. Okay. Well, you've got your challenges. Remember that. And once a parent, always a parent, question, has there been any further meaningful contact between you and your parents or your brother? Yes, there has been. The last time was about a year ago and I can assure you, Chuck, I was not politically correct when I typed my own police report and I sent it because I was like, "Let's make a record of this," because we called the police and nothing came of it. So, I just wanted it to be on paper, on record. Right, okay. And they passed it. Yes. So, there has been no softening or warming in the life of your family. Oh, no, no. They're still as intensely opposed to you. They don't see the joy of the Lord in your life because they don't see your life. No, they own you in their mind, like they know, in their mind they own me. That's what they believe. That's amazing. I feel you're pain in that regard, sister, but on the other hand, you had to choose. You had to make a choice and then you had to trust God no matter what. So you actually have received ongoing persecution and threats as a result of your faith in Christ coming even from your own family. Absolutely. I mean, on the outside a lot of people look at me and they're like, "Wow, you have so much faith." But I mean, I'm still human. I still look at... Well, look, and I'm looking at your eyes on the front of the book here. Obviously, you're human. They're pretty eyes. Thank you. I mean, I still check my doors three and four times to make sure they're double and triple one. Really? Yeah, I have to make sure that because they parked outside of my children's daycare when they were little. And so I had to put certain things in place, but God has protected us, He has... He's sovereign. So at the end of the day, the way I look at it now is the enemy has to get permission from God to strike because this is a spiritual war when it comes down to it. And God knows when they're on their way before I do. And so my whole life before I became a believer was about me trying to get to heaven. I know we're on-headed now. Okay. So you have confidence in Christ. Oh, absolutely. You're not worried in that sense that you are concerned as a human being, wanted to protect safety of yourself, your family, your children. Yeah. Okay. So what do you say to someone today who says, "You know what, I'm feeling the threat of persecution from one thing or another." I mean, persecution is rising in our country. What you didn't know is that I just completed writing a book called, "When Persecution Comes, Preparing Our Hearts, Preparing Our Hearts, Preparedless Times." It's just gone to typesetting last week. Wow. Yes. Wow. Well, you and I can talk more about it after the program maybe. But yes, that's the spirit where we are. And that, just as anti-Semitism is sweeping the world and even the United States, persecution is coming on its heels. Yes. Do you see that? Yes. Yes. It reminds me of Romans 8, 18, you know, where it says, "I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that awaits us." Mm-hmm. Yeah, we do have to stand in our faith for sure. Right. And we have to stop just being quiet. We have to be bold in our faith and we have to stay prayed up. There you go. Well, I think that's a good way to segue to the end of the program here, Kenza. I'm so glad that you joined us here in the program today. What a blessing you are, what an encouragement you are, will continue to pray for you and thank the Lord for your strength and the testimony that you have. The book, The Ex-Muslim's Guide to Christianity, $12 on our website, saveus.org. Call us 1-800-SAVE-USA, writing a check at $5 for closing and handling. I think it'll be a very encouraging book to you, friends. We need all the encouragement we can get for such a time as this. God bless, be a blessing, and pray for Kenza and her family. You've been listening to Viewpoint with Chuck Chris Meyer. Viewpoint is supported by the faithful gifts of our listeners. Let me urge you to become a partner with Chuck as a voice to the church declaring vision for the nation. Join us again next time on Viewpoint as we confront the issues of America's heart and home. [MUSIC] [BLANK_AUDIO]