just win baby. It's not that hard. I mean, it's very incredibly hard as it happened here since 1967. Even out Davis like it was his whole thing and happened that often for him in the tale tale stretch fan morning show brand gunning Jesse Ruben off here. Robes always love getting in love getting in on a Monday full weekend's worth of stuff to react from got about 15 mics going on here. Let me help you out. Let's get that out of the way. Put that in front of your face. All right. There we go. Let's talk. That was awkward, but here we are. It's Monday. She got the cobwebs, folks. Oh, like you didn't have a little bit of a messy merger on the highway this morning. Cut us some slack. Robes. What's going on? How are you? What's up, buddy? I'm doing well. I was a week and everything good. It was good. Yeah, I just can't get over the like my kids been watching a lot of Spiderman. So there's like full doctor octopus thing happening there with the 37 different arms of mics we have in front of us. It was very distracting for me, but we're all figured out. You're talking into the right one now. I'm doing well. We had we had a lot from the weekend. Connor McDavid being maimed and murdered at the end of an oiler's law. So, you know, is is good. The Blue Jays had their one offensive outburst a week. They're usually good for that. But we got to take it back to Friday. We spent the entirety of Friday's show wondering what we would hear. Now we finally heard it. So Brendan Shanahan sticking around. Yep. For now commented on his contractual status, even though he was not want to do. We'll get to that. Keith Pelly very much here and Brad your living to the absolute surprise of no one going nowhere and will continue to be the general manager of the Toronto Maple Leafs. What did you big pitcher takeaway? Would you make from what you heard on Friday? Well, I think the biggest thing is that, you know, this was a case of people expecting to hear, I think, one thing or wanting to hear one thing and getting something else in return. I think people, you know, in a perfect world would have loved the executives to sit up there and say, Hey, we're not only are we going to look at everything, but we are going to definitely ask Mitch Marner to wave his no trade. We are definitely going to ask John Tavares to wave his no trade. And that was never a realistic possibility. And I think they did go as far as they possibly could in that regard in terms of looking at everything we said when we left here on Friday, we did say that they were going to we had the inkling that they were going to say we're going to explore every single option that's at our disposal. And what they didn't do was give the core a vote of confidence that they had been giving for the last number of years. And if there's any major takeaway for me, it's that truly it does. It does appear like everything is on the table and I do take them at face value with that. And I understand that, you know, talk is cheap and the actions are what actually matters here. But nonetheless, they can only do so much in a press conference. And in terms of what Lee fans wanted to hear, I think they got as much as they possibly could. >> Yeah, it's funny. I don't disagree with anything, but I maybe it's just the way I've gone into these postseason press conferences. It's okay, do you feel any better now? That is exactly what everyone had been asking for. For everyone, everyone to rush to the microphone and then actually be in a fist fight with each other going, no, no, no, it's my fault. How dare you take blame? All the blame goes with me. No, no, no, put the blame on me, put it on me, please, please, no, let me take the blame. There was so much of that and I don't think it comes from a place of dishonesty or an act or anything like that. But I don't know, I don't, I didn't think those guys didn't put it on them. I didn't think they did think they were so close. I didn't think we were going to hear any of that. And I guess that's my, I guess that's the thing I come to with all of these. And I'd say the same thing about when you hear it from the players is not again, not that you mean it, not, or not that they don't mean it, not that it's just an act. But when the things that are said are basically a bingo card of what a PR department or Joe in Mimical would have put in front of them saying this is what I want to hear. Yeah, it's not to say that it rings dishonest. Because again, I believe them at every, at every step of what they say. But the thing I kept coming back to in all this, and again, I go to it with the players is, okay, do you actually feel any better now that it's all said and done until you get your blood letting of a Mitch Marner trade or or captain of Team Canada, the World Hockey Championship is shot Tavares until you get, is that going to make you feel better? That I, I believe obviously would because that is real change. This is, and again, talk is cheap. Like there's nothing they could have done differently, but I didn't expect it. That, to me, felt like a press conference where there was not everything to lose, but you could only put your foot in your mouth. You could not really, I mean, maybe Pelly is a different version of that. Maybe people feel a little differently because he is, you know, us in the business, we're aware of who Keith Pelly is, but maybe he's a little lesser known to the general Leaf fan at large. I suppose he had maybe something to gain in terms of seeming like a steady hand, but yeah, I wasn't going to, I mean, I would have freaked out if they came out here and said, no, what are you talking about? I'm the full vote of confidence for everybody, but that wasn't going to happen. Yeah. So I, it felt like it was totally within bounds of what was expected. Yeah, I think it's a very fair point. I do think, you know, there was a risk of, of almost apathy going into that press conference because you knew that there was nothing they could really say that could impress you all that much, but I, I do think Brad should live and came away from that press conference looking pretty good. And the reason I say that is because he, he, it felt like he knew exactly what the fans wanted to hear from an on the ice product standpoint, not the mentality of all we need. We need winners. We want to win in this organization because that should in every organization in sports go without saying, but it was actually talking about how goals are scored in the playoffs, the issues with the offense. Why haven't we been able to break through? We need guys who go to the greasy areas. Yeah, if you look at, you know, the shot charts of the postseason, it gets the Bruins and that series Leafs were not near the middle of the ice as much as they should have been and that led to a lack of offense. So I do believe that Brad, you're living has a pretty decent understanding here that what you need is more physicality in front of the net. You got to get to the greasy areas. You got to score morgals like Bertuzzi had that one where, you know, we went off him in front of the net. You need more stuff like that. And it did come across for me at least that true living had a pretty decent understanding of the direction that he wanted to take the roster. And that was a little bit refreshing. But I also think like Shanahan was saying a lot of the same stuff. But it felt almost like he was redundant being up there. Like there wasn't much that there wasn't much of a value add. It was a lot of repeating the same stuff that true living had to say. And I do wonder, you know, he looked a little bit uncomfortable up there surrounded by, you know, his boss and a guy who came in under him. And I just wonder, like, is there is there really a need long term for for that guy when he's basically saying the same stuff. So I want to pick up on that you mentioned you mentioned for living and some of the stuff he said. This quote that we're about to hear, I'm sure you've heard it a million different times was created. And I said, you know, you don't want to just play to the fans, but this is a little different with true living because this is just so core to what we think of him as a as a hockey man for lack of a better term. So true living, true living three is what I'm looking for here guys. And this is on him on the type of team he wants to build. There's not just one magic point here. I do think one of the things is I look at our team and as we evaluated over the course of the coming weeks, is we've got to find a way to do the hard, unsexy things longer and those things don't require skill, right? There's some things in this sport and in our games, especially this time of year that are not related to skill, but they help you win. And that's not to say you got to get rid of skill. You need skill, you need talent, you need that to win. But to me, we need a voice that can bring that out. >> So obviously talking a little bit about the coaching, the coaching change that was made there in terms of relieving Sheldon Keefe talk to a ton about that on Friday, but that quote that quote was created in a lab to get every guy in a memo code just chanting one of us. Because if you really want to parse that quote and you want to read into it and he doubled back at the end saying skill is important, but does that trade not sound like I am looking to trade Mitch Marner for two greasy wingers that maybe aren't that good, but we'll do those type of things. That is what that quote just screams and I don't think that's what the trade is going to be. I think it's going to be much more futures based so you can have a lot of cap space and go get those guys via other means. That's just my read on it if we get one, but that trade is catnip there, but unlike when you're hearing a Brandon Shanahan talking about a different path they want to take, that is everything we think of as Brad should living. I think even people like me who were weary of tri-living coming in as the GM last year, that's the stuff I'm weary of is that he prioritizes that too much. Now, I don't think him caring about it is prioritizing it too much, but I think there is an element that that is just so core to his identity of what he is that you did like to like to hear it from him. And it's been so anti the identity of this team. It hasn't been the identity of or it hasn't been antithetical to the identity of least teams by the end of the season. Generally speaking, they go out and solve this at the deadline, your Edmondson's, your Luke Shen's, your Kyle Clifford's like those type of guys that they've that they've gone out and gotten. But I think that this is just telling very telling in terms of the style of hockey team branch you're living once. Yeah, well, there's no doubt like if it feels like tri-living, you know, it had heard everybody talking about how soft the Leafs are as a as a roster before he showed up. He's like, yeah, maybe they are. Maybe they're not. Let's see what it see what it's like for a year. I'll I'll have some guys around the edges that I think give me a little bit more toughness and let's see how actually, you know, soft the Toronto Maple Leafs are. And it feels like after watching that series against Boston, he's finally fed up and he's like, you know what, we've got to go in a completely different direction here and we've got to become much, much tougher. Like I really believe that he's trying to change the identity of this organization as much as he possibly can from an honest perspective. It's it feels like post last year, not this year, but post trade deadline last year is when, you know, Kyle Dubas finally started to figure out maybe maybe physicality might actually work in the playoffs, but they haven't ever really gone full into that. And part of the reason is because they have the core, which, you know, it's difficult to part with those kind of guys and you do need skill and you need talent. And they reiterated that at the press conference as well. But it does feel like this this offseason is where we're really going to get Brad your living putting his his stamp on this roster in terms of getting bigger, meaner and more physical. Yeah, and it's going to be a defenceman laden off season. Like that is how he has always gone about building his teams. I don't think that surprises anybody. But in terms of the in terms of the scoring, you know, they talked about that as well that, you know, everyone talks about the physicality and did this team have enough of it. And the, you know, the, the will versus skill and, you know, all the hockey cliches. But I think there is an element of this team and it goes part and parcel with the power play drying up the way it does. I know we all watch the Oilers power play and God, like it was actually the thing that sent me to bed last night. It was Lee Andrei Seidel's power play goal. But they're just snapping around, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. And it's, it's easy, but that is a generational power play. I'm not saying you can't look at what the Oilers do and say, try to take a couple things there. For sure. You should, you should try. But they have got the greatest power play player of his generation and the greatest power play merchant of his generation in Dryseidel and McDavid. So to compare yourself to that, and I'm not saying that the Leafs can't hold themselves to that standard, it just has to look a different way. And I think that that's the stuff you hear or that's the stuff you're going to look for in sure living. It's a lot more Max Domis and Tyler Bertuzzi's than it is, you know, not that, not that this player would have been anywhere near this team this year, but like the, the Dennis Malgin flyers of the world, the idea of like, oh, this guy's got some skill. Maybe there's 60 points in there. That is gone on Bradger Living's team. So I don't think anybody's remotely surprised by that. No, there's absolutely no question. I, and I do think that from, from a Leafs fan perspective, that's what you want. Is it not like that's what you've been asking for for the longest time. I think Leafs fans were impressed. I think that, I think the problem has been that it's, again, it, not that this goes back to Kyle Dubas, but it was just such a sea change of, hey, this is going to be a skill organization. They want to hold on to the puck and it's puck possession, puck possession. And I think that for a fair amount of people, even if those people eventually soured on the vision, rightfully so, because of the lack of success, that it was, hey, this is enlightenment. This is not just chopping and blocking shots and guess what? It's time for some choppers and blocking some shots because go watch the playoffs. There's a whole lot of that happening. Yeah, there's actually left for a year poking around on somebody's second to third line. There is that, but there's also whatever is going on in this Boston, this Boston Florida series is basically prison rules out there. So I think that people have been clamoring for that. I think the worry when you have that is that, hey, Tyler Bertuzzi, Max Domi, that is one type of player like that, a guy who can mesh that with skill and talent. And I want to be clear, I don't think your living is blind to that. I think he wants a team that has every GM wants, you know, not maybe not 12 Max Domi's, but 12 players wired that way that can make a skilly play can be tough, can go to the gritty areas, but it's just a matter of what do you prioritize? Because eventually, you know, when you're looking at a top six winger or a middle top six center, you can look at that guy and say, there's not really a hole. He can do it both ways. But when you get to your 13th forward, your 12th forward, that's when you have to prioritize going kind of one way or another. And, you know, I think sometimes we think of it as a complete lack of ability, like Connor Doer is a guy who I think kind of perfectly fits that mode for true living. He's not an overly big guy, but finished every check he had in the playoffs has a skill in that he's pretty quick and can move around out there. And I think those are the type of guys we're looking at here. I think people hear that. And if you're somebody who is not bullish on the vision, you go, oh, it's gonna be a bunch of cloud club for his running around. No, it's not. That's the kind of guy I think they're more looking at is your, your, your, your Connor Doer. And, you know, he's obviously a smaller kind of version of that. They'd like some bigger beef for your guys, but guys who can provide you just a good, honest hardship. Yeah, I think it's an excellent point. And I think you talked about a little bit earlier here. It's, it's not having the peripheral guys that you think could have some skill and could score some goals if things break right for them. It's guys that bring you something different that if the goal scoring isn't necessarily there, they're not a one trick pony. No, they actually have the, the, the Connor Doer in it where you can actually finish your check in the corner. And that does something over the course of a seven game playoff series where you help wear down a defense over the course of those games. And ultimately, that's something that the Leafs have lacked for a very long time. They haven't been that when you talk about tough to play against, it doesn't necessarily mean going into the corner, you know, in a scrum and picking guys out like Ryan Reeves does. It's finishing your checks on a four check to make your team relentless to play against and wearing down the opposition over the course of a long series. And that still, even this team against the Bruins this year, it wasn't quite there. Were they a little bit more effective in that regard? Sure. But clearly, having lost the series, that's something that they still need to improve on. And Brad, you're living well in the offseason. Yeah, Connor Doer finishing all his checks to the extent that I believe he's having shoulder surgery in the in the offseason now. They announced that one there. I want to get to the point you brought up about Shanahan, but just while I mentioned the injuries there. Sure. Austin Matthews, sick, head symptoms. We're done. Like there's no more. What happened here? I think we got the picture. But even now, this is still not. I think people were waiting for the it was X. It was not clarity. There's no clarity. No, no. And, you know, I think part of the reason for that is that you have to be careful the way you word these things, depending on clear. I don't, I think it's pretty clear a spotter didn't pull him or we would have heard that. It was still the doctor who did that. But when it's when you were already the way I envision, you know, they talk about this happening is the doctors are already monitoring him because he's sick. So maybe they're asking him like, Hey, how are you feeling? And it's I'm a little light or I'm a little losey or whatever it is. And then they wouldn't have even asked him that question if he wasn't sick to begin with. So yeah, just another, another weird one there. But happy. I guess we did get the clarity. That's as much clarity as we were going to get. McMahon, I guess he was close to coming back. Bobby McMahon wasn't the difference maker in that series, but it certainly, you know, he's another one of those guys then in that true living ilk of hard to play against finished their check can score going to greasy areas. They, you know, it's an MCL spray and that they kept him out. Apparently that was in the Detroit game. Everyone thought that's when Austin Matthews did whatever it was. Yeah, do himself. But that was when McMahon. So the boards hard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hurt there and Joe wall. Another injury for him in game seven. That is going to be that is going to be the hardest thing to have faith in, I think is in this the toughest spot to be in. It's a goalie that you do have faith in, but there always has to be somebody good enough to push him because until we see a run of a year in change here where and look, it's a goaltender, you know, he's going to have a groin flare up here or there. But I think it's these, you know, three, four, five week injuries that you just can't have. You need to see a run of it before you can totally bank on him being your guy and just another frustrating turn in this because I think everything you've seen out of Joe wall. This isn't to say he's, you know, Jake Ottinger and you go stamp it down. This guy's going to win a vesna one day, but I think everything you've seen out of him and his body of work would have you feel confident. It's just you can't have faith in him to be out there. Yeah, it's really difficult when you can't rely on a goaltender. And that's why you've heard, you know, in the seven of the mock trades from Mitch Marner being thrown around. You've heard, you know, a UC Soros would be palatable for the Toronto Maple Leaf fans. Just let me quickly get in on that. You see Soros is one thing, but I, I hate everyone out there that is including a Jacob, Jacob Markstrom, Yakka Markstrom, Markstrom in any of these good partner trades. I just saw that. I saw it out there yesterday. Why are you bullying me like that Ryan Dixon on sportsnet dot sea ice to stop that? Yeah, I did see that out there yesterday. Yeah, it's, it's, it's going to be a massive need for the Toronto Maple Leafs. Obviously, Elia Sampsonov is an unrestricted free agent. I wouldn't expect him to come back when you have a sub nine hundred percent. No, I forget. I forget exactly what the tree quote was about it, but it's like, and Elia Sampsonov is a free well or is a free agent or whatever. It was the most shaking hand. And I see you later. See you later. And good luck. I don't recall saying good luck. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, if you think about, you know, the trade bargain, it feels like that is somewhere where the Leafs are going to have to focus on because, you know, you're seeing it right now play out in the Stanley Cup playoffs. You need depth. The Vancouver, let's think about the Canucks Oilers situation. She loves is putting on an absolute show for the Canucks. That's gold. The Leafs were four deep this year. They, by the end of the season, they had Martin Jones and Murray poking around. They had their version of she loves, but that at the other end, it's Stuart Skinner, who can't stop a beach ball, but the Oilers have nowhere else really to go. And that's, that's the thing. You need goaltender depth in the NHL playoffs. And you got to get lucky too. I don't think people thought that she loves was going to come in here and be this guy. Well, that's what I was going to say is that it's not not to discount the luck part of it, but the Oilers just got bit by goaltending so bad that they can't go to their speedlofts. I mean, part of it is that Jack Campbell makes five million bucks and he is their speedlofts poking around as the third goalie or wherever, wherever he is. Like, I think that's the biggest part of it. But like we weren't sitting here saying the Canucks had amazing depth because of speed offs. It's just he got in and it's the tail is old this time. You absolutely need luck too. There's no, there's no question. And you know, the Leafs haven't necessarily had that. But when you have your one A guy who's already injury prone, then you need to be able to have someone with like a little bit of pedigree coming here and not, you know, just rely on catching something like an archer. Yeah, this is, this is why, I mean, and again, just one of the myriad of players that apparently the only deal in the world that could have netted them in the second round pick, there was no other collection of assets that could have got you a Jake Allen. Everyone's just like, well, there's no second round pick. So there's nothing Brad should have living could have done. Is there not other assets? Could you? No, there's no second rounder. And it's all Cal Dubas's fault. And look, that's true. But it is frustrating to just have heard that time and time again. The Jake Allen, he feels like somebody of that ilk. You can't get him. Doubles ain't letting go now. Oh, no, no, it's just he is the perfect player in that. If Joe Wall gets hurt and Jake Allen is your guy going into playoffs, you are not sitting here feeling a hundred percent confident. Like you're so much better off than you would be if it was Elliot Samsonov or some flyer guy that you're pushing, he is in that perfect spot where he can be a starter. But he also is a very complimentary backup. And then with a guy like, whoa, you know, you're going to need a run of starts from whoever the one B is in this tandem. So yeah, it doesn't have to be Jake Allen. But somebody of that ilk where you got to thread the needle like they can't be too good. You want Joe Wall to feel like the starter when he's there. But you want somebody who can kind of get hot for a couple of weeks. Sorry, you want what you want in on that? No, I was just going to say, remember that little run here where the Hill the beast was the guy who was sitting on the bench and they would let him in an NHL game? Yeah. And I just I just wonder if, you know, the organization looks within and says, now we almost gave this guy an opportunity. Apparently, what the deal is with him is can't handle the puck. Apparently, just and I would think the rule there would be just tether him to his post and not let him. But apparently, there's more to it than that. So that's what's up. Well, I was a goalie. I couldn't do it either. And that's not the reason I didn't make the NHL. But certainly, it's not helpful for our team. Not Marty Brodera. Yeah, definitely not. I wonder who God. I'm so bad for this. Like my hot goalie reference is still J. S. Shagair, my goalie who could snap it around reference is still Marty Brodera. Yeah, but these guys, but both these guys been retired for a decade. Surely there's a goal tender in the NHL right now. They could snap it around. I feel like she's stuck in his pretty. Did you see that on? I think it was Saturday night. Just a beautiful past. The entire length of the ice, like the goal line straight to the blue. So you know that it is. It is in there. I just have to push myself get out of my comfort zone, baby. Not not a is not a good place for me out of my comfort zone. Brett and Shannon, one year left on the deal, God asked about it, made the comment that he's been a lame duck before. Got that sorted out. I don't know. Maybe a little, little projecting there, but he's confident and fine to do it again. I don't know me. I'd like a contract extension, but that's just me. Sure. What did you make of what you saw to him? What you heard from him? The future of that role open ended your thoughts on Brett and Shanahan as of as of Monday morning. Well, I think the interesting thing is that he's now being essentially asked to pivot the direction that he believed this roster was. You know, for whatever you think input wise he had with Kyle Dubas, it's clear that he was involved in some respect in making a roster that was more focused around skill and the core, etc. But now sitting up there, he's like, okay, you know, I've been here for a decade and my patience is finally worn thin. We're going to try and change the way that we play. And he for the first time in literally 10 years, he started talking about playing the game differently. And I started to think like is that is that the executive that you want to have his fingerprints on your roster when he tried to build the team one way he felt like was banging his head against the wall year after year after year with this theme and this identity for the roster. You now want him to be involved in the process of changing perhaps radically the way that your roster looks in the field that your roster has. And I just felt like it it it didn't really make much sense to have him there as that guy as part of that because it felt like tri living at a pretty decent the I said he was the star of the press conference. He feels like tri living can handle that. So why is Shanahan getting the opportunity to do something when he had the the opportunity for so long? I mean, the one year left on his deal is again, awful for him feels perfect for every other party involved. If you're Keith Pelly, you get a one year test run to see how this works in terms of that. You get a one year of Brendan Shanahan being the guy you can go to and ask any questions about how how this all works as part of its fair. That part of it really helps. I think the other I think the other thing too is that with with Brendan Shanahan is you know this and this is where I would love the the truth serum on him is that you know him and him and Kyle Dubas were a partnership. I think at one point in time it was a clear mentor mentee and then I think at a certain point in time maybe maybe one party. Brendan Shanahan still thought of it that way. Maybe a different party. Kyle Dubas thought of it of a different way. But once you get out of that partnership, especially one that those guys had been in for seven, eight years, whatever. I mean, he had been in the least front office longer than that. Dubas had and just in terms of the GM role had been however long it was, but they'd been in a partnership for a really long time and you know a partnership can be two guys doing this together. Partnership can be a marriage. You do something with somebody for long enough. Eventually you're both going to start to rub off on one another. Maybe somebody has, you know, more strong demeanor and they kind of rub off more on the other person than vice versa. But we see this as a sea change for Brendan Shanahan. I don't disagree. There is clearly a different way of going about this. But I also think that I think a lot of people look at it as a capitulation of okay, that wasn't working. Now we have to go to this. I think there is obviously an element to that. But I think the other thing that is massively a play is Shanahan getting away from Dubas and not bouncing ideas off of that exact person like he had been for seven eight years and all of a sudden it's Brad should live in there. And he just sees the game in a fundamentally different way. We can sit here and have all the referendums we want to better worse. I think definitely different though. And I just can only imagine him saying, wait a minute. I'm Brendan Shanahan. Of course I love this style of hockey. Let's go tree. I love this. So I think everyone looks at it as hey, Shanny realized it wasn't working and he had to come to Jesus moment and there is an element to that. But I think it was just more like that he got. I mean, it's like Scott a new it's like Scott a new partner instead of, you know, sitting watching sports all the time. He's going to the opera now. His eyes have been opened. And it's just a different way of looking at things. And I think that that has to be illuminating as much as it as much as Brendan Shanahan being there. I'm sure helps Brad your living. I think that that's illuminating for Shanny going, yeah, let's get back to meat and potatoes. What are we talking about here? And that's the thing that kind of jumped out to me in all of that. I don't think it's a complete 180. I don't think Brendan Shanahan's hockey philosophy changed over or from the course of a year from when he gave his, you know, step by step of what happened presser last year to the presser we saw. But I think it's just only natural that a guy who grew again, this Brendan Shanahan, three cup rings, you know, over a thousand games, a hard way in the show. Yeah, the idea that he'd be sitting there talking hockey that Brad's living for a year and go, yeah, actually, you know, what that does make a lot of sense. And that that was my kind of biggest takeaway from it is that I don't think this is a capitulation by Shanahan or you got strong armed to change against philosophy. I think it's just he's been talking hockey with a guy who fundamentally views it in a different way. It's only natural you're going to shift or alter your opinions a little. I think you make an excellent point. What I will say is that if this was year five and true living was coming in and Shanahan was saying, oh, you know what? Yeah, you know, we should probably change the way that we play. That would be a little bit more palatable. But the fact that he never really saw the light like that over the course of near decade, that's a really long time for an executive to sort of have one direction that you want to shape the roster in. And that I think is the question is, is the longevity? He's been around. He's had the opportunity year after year after year after year. And at some point with executives, just like coaches, just like GMs, all that stuff, the patience eventually runs thin. And he wondered, you know, is that person suited to be in this market anymore? And it's just, again, if it was year three, four, five of this and he was pivoting now, it would be more understandable. But to have a decades worth of experience here and now finally be like, yeah, I'm Brendan Shanahan. Let's play tough hockey. That's a little bit harder to stomach. Yeah, it's it's stuff because I, you know, I hear everything that like I'm I'm saying it too. But, you know, this wasn't a team that shied away from it completely. They definitely lean more into the skill element of it. But, you know, go look like Kyle Clifford's on this team three, four years ago. This isn't a first time and I, you know, I'm not trying to overstate what the last era of Leafs hockey was. Yeah, so it was more skill base. It was puck possession. It was all that. But I think sometimes, honestly, I think it's just a getting out of the, you know, really binary thinking of like all skill, all will you have to find a way to kind of meld the two. You mentioned it, the need for for that role. What is the biggest for you? If you're Keith Pelley and I'm giving you the one year on the clock and in a year's time or hey, you can give them a contract extension anytime you want. What would you want or need to see from Shanahan to kind of decide if you need that chief overseer if Brad your living can just be the GM and that's good enough. I think those questions are so much more about your living than they are for me about Shanahan. I almost don't think there's anything Brad and Shanahan can do outside of having, you know, outsized playoff success. Like, I really think that this is a situation here similar to where Brad your living came in. He said Sheldon Keith, you know, you're the guy. We're going to give you a quote unquote extension and we're going to see how things work. And ultimately, when you lose in the first round, it's an easy, easy thing for the GM to go to the coach and say, hey, you know, you didn't get the job done. We're going to go to a different direction. And I do feel like Keith Pelley coming in here. He wants to see what the processes are like, wants to see what the president of the Toronto Maple Leafs actually does a trial run. And if they ultimately do not have success, it's a very easy thing to come in and say, look, man, you're not my guy. You were here when I got here. Unfortunately, it's not working out. So really, I don't think anything matters except success at the end of the day. He can be great at selling tickets. They've been great at selling jerseys. All that's how he doesn't care about that even though. Yeah, right. Have great meetings and I'll be a real people person, which we know that Brenda Shanahan is. I don't think any of that matters. I really believe that if if they don't get at least, I would say second round, but they've been there, done that at least once. But if you don't have success that you haven't had in a long time here, I think it's just easy for Pelley to say about a Shanahan. Yeah, I think, I think for me, it's that's why I bring him back to traveling. It's so much about how much faith you have in him to be because Keith Pelley, he made it pretty clear. And you know, maybe maybe people believe him. Maybe they don't. I take Keith Pelley. It is word that he he's here to be the president of MLSE. He's not here to metal with the hockey team. Like he can have a fantasy hockey team. He can go be in a playoff pool. He can go be GM of his beer league if if he wants if that's what he wants to do. Like I have zero belief that Keith Pelley wants to, you know, like, is he going to have a say in who the next head coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs is? I'm sure they ask him about it. But does he want to be the one deciding when they have, hey, we're down to our final three candidates. You make the call. I don't think that's what he wants to do. So so much of it to me comes down to how much faith you have in Bradshaw living to be that. And again, it's it it is all a committee. Like if Bradshaw living, if there was no Brandon Shanahan, yes, somebody has to put the rubber stamp on. But Brendan Pratham is still there and you know, Wes Clark, the scout, like all these guys are still involved in the decision-making process. But for me, it is so much about do you buy trees, philosophy, and his ability? And if that's the case, then maybe there isn't the need for that that extra layer. I still, I personally me, I'm not ready to give the car keys to tree yet. That is not a knock on him and what he's done. But when you look at the past track record, and again, I don't I don't outside of John Klingberg. I don't think you can sit here and say Bradshaw living made a lot of mistakes in his first year as as Leafs GM, even the William Newlander contract. It looked like an early when Bertuzzi and Domi were started off slow, but those guys weren't the problem, right? So you can't sit here and say that it's trail living. Like he had a ton of missteps, but I just like to see a little more track record before that guy is the chief overseer of all Leafs decisions, which is a crazy thing to say about a general manager, but that's the way hockey front offices were. No, I think it's really intuitive. It's a really intuitive point because, you know, if in fact, there isn't the faith in the core that existed in the past and you are approaching Mitch Marner, you're approaching John Tavares to try and get them away with no move, you know, trail living has a history of making a pretty significant move when, you know, he couldn't extend John of the Nuberto when Matthew could chuck, wanted out, it could chuck, ended up getting traded and it wasn't a great return for Brad trail living. And I think you're sort of waiting to see, you know, can you maximize what the options are for you in this sort of situation? And if he doesn't nail that, then I think, you know, maybe having someone like a brin Shannon in there to sort of, you know, guide him along the way is helpful. But if Brandon Shannon is there talking them through that process and he makes the bad trade, like how tied in the hip are they at all the it's it's fascinating. It does also just to bring up the marner a potential marner trade to what happened with Kajak and Huberto there. If he just traded for, I think they also got a first so be Uyghur a first, if they just, if Uyghur just wasn't included in that deal and it was Uyghur, Uyghur in a first round pick, you know, you probably would have wanted like one other thing there. But if you just removed Jonathan Huberto, you know, just the 120 point guy that was the crux of the deal. If you just take out the best player in the trade that the flame's got, they did pretty well for themselves. God, it's funny how these things work out. Funny how baseball works out too. And Alec Benoa, good again. Yeah, let's hold on. But that was a nice step. Blue Jays scored some runs this weekend. You know, they're wanting to do it once a week or so. Weird times in Blue Jays land, dropping a series against the Twinkies on the weekend. We'll talk about all that more weeks. It's a new fan morning show with Gunting and Rubenoff on SportsNet 590, the fan. Hey, it's Aylish Forafar. And I'm Justin Cushford. Join us as we discuss the most important sports stories of the day and tee up the biggest games of the night. It's the fan pregame, 6 p.m. weekdays on SportsNet, SportsNet 590, the fan in wherever you get your podcasts. [MUSIC] Alec Benoa back settle down. It's a good step. Fan morning show. Bring Gunting Jesse, you're Rubenoff here. Rubenoff, a lot to take away from the Blue Jays this weekend. And you know, there's there's a couple of things we could poke a whole lot here there. But let's be positive. We just talked about the Leafs and even I can only be so positive about a team that hasn't played a hockey game in two weeks at this time of year. So let's try to start positive on the Jays here. Alec Benoa made it easy though. Doesn't quite get the line he deserves. Three runs. None of them earned there. Four hits, one walk over seven innings. Striking out a bunch in it as well. I'm not going to say it's the most important thing because you got to you got to win series. You got to win games. But if I could have given Blue Jays fans, hey, you can pick anything on this bingo card. Free space. What do you want it to be? I think a lot of people would have signed up for Alec Manoa. Great outing. Yeah, there's no question about that. I mean, I got to be honest, I did not see that coming. I think the, you know, after you know why it's you're a human who's watched baseball. Right. Right. It's been, it's been a year since we've seen effectively that version of Alec Manoa. And after his first start in a long, long time in the Major League level, they were both talking about in both Manoa and Schneider were talking about, you know, it's like a control thing. And I do, you know, I thought, well, it's yeah, stuff looked OK, but you know, he's got to put everything together. And then he comes out yesterday and throws 55 of his 78 pitches for strikes, which is fantastic. 16 first pitch strikes to 26 hitters, which is a big departure from 11 first pitch strikes to 24 hitters against the Nationals last weekend. So I think there's a lot to be encouraged about. But the issue when you see a guy who's struggled for basically a year is you have to string it together multiple times. So while it's a good step in the right direction and a very welcome sign for a Blue Jays team who has had a little bit more, I think, pitching difficulty than they did a year ago. And that's been reflected really in the record, ultimately. I think this is a big development for them. But like you said, at the end of the day, man, you got to win games and you just cannot have performances like you had yesterday coming off of what you saw on Saturday. That's that's the big thing at this point. It's not early anymore. Like there are six games back of a wild card position. Like you got to go here. And it's nice to have Manoa coming around. But it's not enough. No, God, enough. Does he hit? Is this to show hey situation? And maybe that's why he's been struggling all this time. He's been putting in too many reps in the cage. No, that's that's not happening. You're right. I mean, the biggest positive is what you saw from the bats and but it's one day. You need to see it more often. You just want to get back to Manoa for like 15 swing a miss out of him yesterday. Yeah, that is a number. I mean, command is obviously the biggest thing for him, but he's not able to get swing a miss if he's not commanding the strike zone because then obviously you're getting guys to chase. And it's just Manoa is a guy who again, this isn't me sitting here saying, oh, this is to start a something. Watch out. He's about to go on a run here. No, that that I will go as far as to say that's actually not happening. I need to see more before I'm even close to believing it, but there are guys who pride themselves and feed off of process. And that's a lot of baseball players here at all the time, specifically with hitters, right? Because it's every day and you say, hey, do good work in the cage. Do good work on the machine. You will. It will come around the process. You stick with it. You have to make adjustments, but stick with it. Manoa seems like the exact opposite. He solely feeds off of results. He can go there and have as good a side session on some back field in Dunedin as he wants. And everyone's sitting there going, look at this iPad. Look at your spin rate. Look at how good. Hey, don't care. Don't care. There wasn't a guy in the box. And I don't think he doesn't care about that stuff, but look at him. The thing all the things you love about Alec Manoa is not that he he has the he's able to dot it right on the black and he has a he has the throws at 100 miles. That's not all the stuff you love about it. It's a competitor. He's a dog. He finds a way and him having a game like that and granted the result didn't go the way he wanted, not his fault at all. You just if you're going to believe that anybody can have that switch flip and just one outing where you feel it is enough. Now again, I'm not telling you to do that because I'm not doing that. But if there's anybody, if there's any type of athlete that's wired that way specifically in this sport where it is so much more. Hey, dial it back a little. You got to try less, not try harder. It seems like Manoa is the one not the one, but such he's wired in such a way that you could just see it pay in dividends. When he's going, he's bumping on the man. He's going. He's going. Yeah, he's strutting off the mound after a k like he's got that little the kukuchi swagger that when Manoa was gone, kukuchi's in burrito sort of took over the the swagger department for the starting rotation. But I do think that that you know can feed itself into the next one and the next one. He's a guy that you would understand with someone who's a fiery competitor like that and sort of relies on confidence and swagger. When you do have one good start, that can parlay itself into some momentum here and you start to put together a string. And you know, you hope for the best for a guy like that because it's been a long time of him struggling. And just I don't think it set the Blue Jays back necessarily because the pitching rotation was so good a year ago. And you were expecting him to be a huge part of it coming off of a young candidate season. But they covered up a lot of the deficiencies but you can never have too much pitching and to have a guy get back to some semblance. Obviously, you're not expecting him tomorrow to be a young candidate again. But if he can get back to being a legitimate five in the Blue Jays starting rotation who doesn't, you know, gives you three, four runs over six innings. And that's going to be a massive step in the right direction for this organization and this team. >> Yeah, honestly for him, it's not about God. I mean, get there before, you know, get yourself in this position before I'm about to say it. But it's not even about the post season math with Manoa because, quite honestly, you know, even Gosman, I know he had the blip this weekend because the twins just really own him for some reason in a way that we haven't quite figured out. Someone should ask them. They clearly have figured it out. But you know, despite the Gosman struggles, if you get yourself in a postseason series, there's still a long way to go before Manoa is pitching ahead of any of the other starters that you've seen that you've seen this year, you know, even, even quite honestly, like Yuri O Rodriguez and in the limited time you've seen out of him. So it doesn't change the postseason math, but the regular season math for a team that is going to need great starting pitching unless that blip from from Saturday is going to start repeating itself two, three times a week, which it's not. Let me just go on record and say definitively that will not be happening to this offense this year that you're going to need starters to be great. And the other thing about it is with Manoa, you know, it's not super late in the season. It's not early yet, but it's not deep into the season yet. But him coming in, it does kind of give you a slight bit of a kind of fresher arm a little later in the year you have Rodriguez in the mix. You can kind of go to a six man rotation if you need to. That's the other thing as well as if Manoa can just be a competent starter for this team. This isn't about getting back to Sayoung Alec Manoa. That would obviously change things in a big, big way. But if you can just be competent starter and then you can mix in your Rodriguez to give you or your Manoa to so burrios can get the extra day or Gosman can get the extra day. You just get better versions of your best guys. So yeah, they they needed that for Manoa. Looks like the next outing for him comes against the Rays. So you know, it's always been House of Horrors, but it's here. So that that should be the good thing series tonight starting up against the O's. You want to talk about a measuring stick game. This is the class of the division right now. And sorry, not the Blue Jays, the Orioles. They're going to be this way for for a long, long time. How much do you by measuring stick series or measuring stick games in baseball versus other sports? Because it's so hard. It is the sport where you play the most. But I also don't think you can see it. The first series of a year against the team that you're chasing in your division is that's just three of 162. Yeah, I think Blue Jays fans are going to look at the Orioles lineup. You know, this series and say, Oh, be nice to have a guy like that. Nice to have a guy like that. Or at least the guy who is performing really well. They have the luxury of being able to take their number one prospects in Jackson holiday was a number one prospect of baseball. And he's like, not good. They just send them back down. And that's how rich they are in terms of prospects and talent in Baltimore. I think there's a situation developing with the Toronto Blue Jays here. They're shooting themselves in the foot a little bit. And you look at the construction lineup in yesterday's game. And coming off of having David Schneider and lead off spot. Why why at this stage of the season when George Springer has struggled to the extent that he has, why not stick with the lineup in some respects. The one that gave you your best offensive output of the season like that that part like when you go up against the Baltimore Orioles team, which they're going to do, you have to put your best foot forward and coming off the loss that they had or the win that they had on Saturday, which was unbelievable. And an opportunity, I think to really start kick start some momentum here, they change the lineup so completely where you have Vogel back in lineup who is not produced in any facet whatsoever. Yeah, George Springer back at the top of the lead off position when he's struggled immensely. Yeah, David Schneider batting fifth when I think everyone has looked at him in the lead off spot and said that's a really good option for them. Yeah, it's these little things that over the course of a season, it's like, why why are you still experimenting with this sort of thing? It shouldn't be we got to get George going. It should be we have to win and we have to win now. And I think it was a blown opportunity yesterday where they could have put together the same lineup and seen what that lineup could have given them and they just did not do that. And now you're going up against the Baltimore team and you're sort of at a loss as to what the best lineup is again. Yeah, I don't I don't disagree with any of that but it doesn't matter one lick when the top five guys in the lineup strikeout nine times in a single game wouldn't matter how you stack them wouldn't matter if you went lead off man big sexy himself, Daniel Vogelbach. I don't think it was it was going to matter. But I'm with you there. The the team, you know, they said, spring her down. They give them the day off, makes it easy to put Schneider in there. You stick with it and then you go away from it. It's just it's frustrating. It's frustrating. And you you're doing a great job filling in for Ben by just bringing up Davis Schneider and being like, more Davis Schneider, more of the baby. You're you're doing a great bed impression. Yeah, you're you're you're you're great at it. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, you see the O's in town tonight. I think you make a great point about the lineup. The other thing and this has been an issue all season long is outside of the couple high leverage guys. And there's been a lot of good stories in a pen for a pen that's stuck. It's not a thing like Nate Pearson has had some moments here and there. But yeah, you you look at you look at it and Swanson again, just struggling on the weekend. Just can't have that guy in leverage. You know, bull pens are so finicky. You see it all the time year to year. I don't think anyone is overly shocked by this. But yeah, losing Swanson is a as a leverage guy. It certainly makes Schneider's job harder. But you know, I don't say that to take John Schneider off the hook. You got to find a way. But yeah, the more we see of this, the less we need to see of that in terms of of Eric Swanson anywhere near leverage. It's so funny. Just just watching this team over the last two seasons. Whenever a pitcher struggles, I always just I almost get this feeling. It's like, what did you expect? It's like the pitching carried you. The bullpen was fantastic a year ago. The pitching wrote as a staff. They were the best or the second best, depending on what metric you look at in all of baseball. And now the bullpen has the worst ERA in all of baseball. It's 515. The next worst team is the Texas Rangers at a 497 bullpen ERA. So it has not gone well. But I almost want to say like when the offense struggles for that long, this is sort of what you get. You get a reversion back to the mean. And this unfortunately is careening really, really quickly to the other side of the spectrum where you'd like to see a little bit more in the middle of of baseball. But it's hard for me to blame the Blue Jays pitching when they carry the team the entire year. It's like, yeah, Swanson's struggling immensely and they're having a really tough time trying to figure out who should be, you know, in leverage in certain spots. But I almost be like, well, you get what you deserve in the offense. Just just failed them for so long that now this is this is what happens. Yeah, it's a long season. Kevin Goh has been talked about this. I know you mentioned it for the starters when every single inning is a high leverage inning. It's just it's tough to walk a tight rope all season long. Blue Jays start up a series of Orioles tonight and it's right there. They're only eight and a half back of the Orioles for the for the first spot in the division. That's all 13. Hey, so it's early. They have lots of time is what I'm hearing there. Just we put them in. Look how close you'll be still five and a half back. A fan boarding show gutting and Rubenoff Gourd Stellick going to join us next also. Carter McDavid was maimed at the end of the Oilers game. We'll talk about that because playoff hockey is the best. A fan morning show continues on Sportsnet 5-9 to the fan.
