[MUSIC PLAYING] Fan Morning Show Sportsnet 5.9 of the fan, Ben and his friend, Gunning. Blue Jays take game 1 of 3 against the ball tomorrow, which is significant, because they only won three times in 13 games against the Orioles last season or the way there. That pretty much sunk their season. They're 500 against the Orioles. Well, just factually, they're over 90 wins. And you feel a lot better about that team that was built largely. Even the 89 new wins was built largely on the strength of wins over bad teams. So this is like a twofold thing. It's like, one, it's the Orioles who you couldn't beat last year, but it's also like good teams who you also couldn't beat. So being able to do that would be a step in the right direction. Blue Jays still three games under 500. Fan graphs has them now projected, though, for the rest of the season to go 63 and 58, which would give them a robust total of 82 wins, 82 and 80. Notably, two wins less than the Diamondback Slasher. Yes, that is our North Star for bad teams that did a good thing. OK, but that would not put them out of it, right? Like 82 wins isn't enough to get you into the playoffs, but like meaningful September baseball. But being at 500 at the trade deadline makes it a conversation where you're like, God, what do we do here? Do we pivot? Do we sell off some pieces? Do we add? How close are we? Is there an argument to be made here, Brent, that the best thing for this team is to not be that. Because I think an 82 win Blue Jays season is very much a realistic possibility and very much a disappointment if that's the case being on the outside of the playoffs, looking and considering how ready to compete the rotation is and how you got a couple of guys very quickly approaching free agency. Is there an argument to be made that like, ye losing games now and in this season and before the deadline is actually not the worst thing in the world. And in fact, even if you believe in this team next season, it's the best path forward that you are compelled forced to sell off your pending free agents. You can easily make that argument. I think I think so much goes into the security of the front office as a whole in regarding that. I think some of it is not the best for Ross Adkins. No, it's not. No, no, for him, definitely not. But I also think you look at, you know, like the idea of they just pumped a lot of money into this ballpark. Do they want to have a lose? Like, I think there are a lot of things that go into the question if it is that nightmare scenario. You lay out where they're half pregnant at the deadline and you can make the argument to sell. You can make the argument to push. I think there are a lot of factors that kind of would pull them in either directions. The DNA of this front office would be to say, yeah, get these pieces out of here. We know how this goes. They want to have their sound bite of four years of team control into 72 or whatever that was. But then there's also the factor of, you just pumped a ton of money into the ballpark. And if you can have a better team to get butts in the seats, you most certainly want to do that. So I'm with you. I think if, I mean, this goes, though, saying, if you're going to be bad, be bad now and sell off, but don't have it. I do wonder which way this front office would get pulled at the deadline because I think in their DNA, they operate like a lot of those NHL teams you talked about this year, like a Flyers team that goes like, OK, yeah, sure, we're a playoff team. Get out of here. Let's sell off some of these pieces because we know what we are. I think that's the DNA of this front office more so than trying to turn a team that is maybe three games out to barely being a wild guard team. Yeah, I mean, they added to a team last season that was better. And I mean, there were better underlying offensive numbers for this team. Boy, you go back and you look at the offensive totals and averages that that team in 2023 had. And you compare it to this team. It was like, oh my god, that was the 27 Yankees. Like, and a lot of their run scoring difficulties, at least in the first half of the season, was like weird runners in scoring position things. And that did normalize by the end of the season. But clearly not good enough offensively. I think, I mean, I think you hit on something there in that. The natural inclination, I think considering all the work that's been done at the ballpark, considering the idea of like selling tickets for this team or jerseys, not to go Keith Pelley. Yeah, the end of the season. I think if there is a debate, like if it's a 50/50 thing, like do we sell off Danny Janssen or Jimmy Garcia or closer Jordan Romano? Kukuchi or whatever, yeah. Kukuchi or not, it's hard for me to envision a spot where they wave the white flag on this thing if they're at 500. Because if you're at 500, you can make the playoffs as we well know. And everybody's under the same belief, even though it doesn't necessarily prove to be true. And the Diamondbacks didn't win the World Series, right? They got there, but they didn't win it. But yeah, once you get a chip in a chair in the postseason, you got as good a chance as anybody of winning when you get there. So that's why it almost has to be there's no other choice but to sell. Because I think if you're in and around 500, unless they look entirely different, a guy must also add that caveat. Like what if Vlad and Bo go absolutely hamming? It is those guys being at the peak of their powers that's just enough offense to get you through and be one of the better teams in the American League on the strength of your pitching, on the strength of your bullpen. And you are just a couple more bullpen pieces away from being a team that wins a bunch of games, three, two and four, three, because those guys give you enough offense. But it seems like that's far-fetched. And if it is far-fetched and that's not gonna happen, it seems clear that even if you're not waving the white flag on this generation of Blue Jays, if you wanna compete in 2025, getting assets for some of those pending free agents probably the best way forward. - Yeah, it's usually the best way. And I'm happy you threw in that caveat 'cause that's what I was gonna say. I do think the route to that would matter. If it's on the backs of Vlad and Bo, it is so much tougher to pivot than it is if it's Alejandro Kirk having a resurgent season. And it's a Davis Schneider month that gets you there. And it's a Varshow month. But if it's those two guys at the center of it, it's pretty hard to pivot away from it. I think it'd be hard to pivot away from any success, but really, really hard if it's those two guys that are driving it. - The other part of this is who's doing the selling? If you're selling, you're admitting that this is bad idea. What you did this year, where you're like, hey, we can contend we don't need any extra bats. We got enough bats. And also having like top five payroll and baseball and paying into the luxury tax and like for this. And this is not Ross Atkins' first day. He's been here for a decade. That is he the guy that you want orchestrating the pivot towards 2025. And do you want to also fire a GM in the middle of a season? I mean, does that impact your thinking? Does that like tilt the scales actually against selling? Because hey, if it goes pear shaped anyways, like this guy's going to be fired at the end of the season. Do we want the guy who's about to be fired? Like making moves to try and save his job? - Don't take this as a defensive Ross Atkins. But for all the criticisms we have of him, it's not been sell off trades that have been his problem. It's been the other way. Like I don't actually question his ability to, you know, necessarily target the best miner. That's just not the job. He's been tasked with in most of his kind of tenure here. So I think that's a fair question in and of itself as well. Like again, do not take this as a blind defensive Atkins. But that's not really what he's been doing for the past three, four years of this job. It's been trying to retool and get better as opposed. Like he'd be on the other side of these trades that he's been losing. - The other part of this too is that like, it's assumed that if you're doing the selling and boy, like losing Danny Jansen, Bluejay's best player who, yeah, just dealing with some back stuff right now. - What? - I shocked. - You're gonna get bad. Like you lose, you say kukchi, you're gonna be bad. I mean, we do have like example year over year over year of these teams that do either like full on sell offs or like moderate sell offs or like teams that are like, oh, you sold off instead of going for it. And like, oh, hey, it turns out like Orelvis Martinez is actually good and makes his offense better when he's forced into a role because he can play because you've sold off some of your pieces. - No comment on the defense that we might see if that happens. - Yeah, we'll see. - It hasn't been good. - It's second base in small sample of Buffalo. - I guess my no comment, basically was a comment. - Yeah. Time now for our insider brought to you by Don Valley, North Lexus, where you can expect excellence online and in the showroom, visit DonValleyNorthlexus.com. Today's insider, Ben Nicholson-Smith, the Apple letters podcast. How's it going, Benny? - Pretty good, how are you guys doing? - Doing very well. So, John Schneider swore as he has want to do on occasion yesterday about how exhilarating and how important that win was yesterday, partly because they only had nine guys and there was no pinch running for Daniel Volvak or Alejandro Kirk. Do you believe in the significance of this series? Like, is there added significance one because of, hey, man, we're up against it as far as the illness, but the other thing that was, you know, there were three in 10 against the Orioles last year and not very good against good teams, is this like an outsized, important May series against a divisional rival? - I think it is because you also just can't afford to lose that many series in that many games. And I know that like, you know, it's, we're a quarter of the way through the season, and we don't want to go too doomsday or too far ahead of ourselves here, but I don't think that it's the same as if, like if the Chiefs had started the season 25 and 15, yeah, they can lose the series. They could be swept and it would be fine, right? Because of the way they've started and the poor record that they have to this point in the year, you can't afford to have a week where you're two and five or where you're, you know, two and four and you just keep seeing that baseline, that 500 baseline drifting further and further away. So yeah, I do think it's fair to say that these games do have some added importance. - Yeah, not that they wouldn't have, regardless of how it stacks up, but the fact that you get burrios on the mound in the first game of it, and then you have Bassett and Kakuchi also going, you know, again, we can quibble if you'd want. Gosh, been in there over one of those guys, but those are the three starters I think you'd pick to put in. So you're in as good a position as possible. Something else that's really set in this team up for success as of late is Vladimir Grud, Jr. He's been on fire quite frankly in the month of May, over 1,000 OPS. You know, no player is ever as good as the hottest hot streak, but how much are we buying this from Vlad versus it being a blip that we have seen a little bit before? But I don't know that we've seen a streak quite like this, maybe going back to the 21 season. - Yeah, I think there's even more in the tank for Vlad, Jr., just because we haven't really seen him drive the ball into the air, into the seats on a consistent, consistent basis. We have seen him make incredibly hard contact, and that's a great first step, and there's nothing wrong with hitting a single that's 130 miles an hour, that's a great outback, you'll take that every single time up. But I do think that, you know, there's a chance for Vlad to start hitting doubles and homers, and when he does that, then that's when we're seeing the full upside of Vlad, Jr., so yeah, I think that there's even more in the tank, I think that for him, you know, the J's obviously are going to need him to be hitting at a high level, if they're gonna make up to ground, that they've lost with the early part of the season, and give back to 500 and get back into this race. So it is a really good sign for them that he's been hitting and making the kind of contact that he had. - Yeah, he should get extra credit for like a 115 mile an hour single though. I guess that shouldn't just count the same as like a little duck snort, that's not really all that fair. - For like every five of them, they should get to put one more single in the ledger, not as a hit, 'cause then I would screw that up, but just like in the, yeah. - Yeah, singles are better than like nakin' outs, again, but yeah, you expect your hulking first baseman who's hitting the ball 115 mile an hour to like have some extra base hits in there as well. So each hitter is responsible for their own statistics and their own approach, right? Like ultimately he comes down to them and they're gonna do whatever they think is in their best interest to perform. But like this whole offensive philosophy thing and the hitting coaches thing, and like even on the broadcast, Dan mentioned that hey, there's like a slightly different messaging that hey, they're gonna do damage on the pitches that they wanna hit or some such thing. - Okay, how responsible for what we've seen this season offensively comes down to organizational philosophy? Like how do we, I mean, they have an offensive coordinator now. I guess there's like something to that, but again, I can't get away from the fact that these are players who want to have long careers and they're gonna take in the information, but like if they don't think it's the best thing for them, they're not going to listen to it, are they? - I should hope not. I mean, yeah, otherwise you're gonna have a lot of people telling you what the best thing to do is. And these guys have gotten here by, of course, listening to other people, but also by tuning things out selectively. And that's part of the job of being a major league player because you're always going to have a lot of information thrown at you in a lot of opinions. And it's their careers, like you said. So I think that it's mostly on the players. Of course it's on Ross Hackens 'cause he assembled the team. And then it's on the individual players. I don't think that you can look to a donmatically and say, this is his philosophy and we're seeing it play out. This is why the Blue Chase are struggling. Now he has an opportunity to make things better. He has an opportunity to nudge things forward. And candidly, we haven't really seen that. So there's no real indication that Don Mattingly's approach is doing anyone a lot of favors. But at the same time, I'm not gonna blame it all Don Mattingly, I think it's ultimately up to the hitters. And of course the GM. - Yeah, one thing that will dictate how much success again, just one more kind of log on the fire is who's gonna bat lead off for this team? When George Springer has been available, it's typically been him. When he hasn't, it's been David Schneider. I certainly like the Schneider option better than the Springer option. Why do we think the team is so hesitant to go to Schneider or somebody else in that spot? - When Springer is available. I mean, we've understood the idea of creatures of habit, but at a certain point in time, something that's good for George Springer is maybe not what's good for the Blue Jays here. And I think it's pretty hard to make the argument that it's a good thing for the Blue Jays, that he's gonna get the most at bats on the team if you pop him in the lead off spot as many days as he's available. - Yeah, I agree, Brent. I think that's well said. You look at, okay, so to answer your question of why the Blue Jays continue to put George Springer in the lead off spot, they say they believe that better things are ahead and they believe in George Springer and they believe that he can get back to being a really productive offensive player. Okay, so that's what they say. Now, ultimately, is that a convincing argument? Not to me, because we're now a quarter of the way through the season and we have all of last year and at no point during that stretch of a year plus, has George Springer been so good that you say, this is a guy we absolutely need to have getting that extra at bat late in the game. And in contrast to that, David Schneider's actually been great. Ever since he came up to the major leagues, OPS in the high 800s, he's been really, really good. And this is a team that doesn't have a lot of offense. So if you can, you know, with the lineups turning over in the ninth inning or an extra innings, and you get that one extra at bat for David Schneider, I think that's an advantage that Jayce would wanna have. Now, not the BLM doll, not gonna change their record by four wins, but it's a small advantage that I think it makes sense for the Jayce to put David Schneider in that lead-off spot. Have you been digging into the bad tracking stuff that Major League Baseball has been releasing? I have dug in a little bit, and it seems like the Blue Jays have some slow bats. (laughing) You know, interesting. Not good, not what you want. No, it's not. And the guy with the slowest bat will tide for the slowest bat with the Kevin Bijo's Justin Turner, and I don't think anybody thinks he's bad. So it's not like the be-all end-all, but yeah, it is startling Ben to like look at like the teams we view as good, and their bats are fast, and the Blue Jays are very bad. So are the White Sox, and they're like the two slowest bat speed teams. That does seem indicative of something, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, it's not good. (laughing) Yeah, but swinging a bat really hard is a foundational skill as a hitter. And it's obviously not everything, because you have to make good decisions as far as when you swing, and you also have to connect your swing to the baseball. So there are three elements there, if you want to break it down that way. But swinging hard is a truly core foundational element to being a good Major League hitter. And at this point, someone like Justin Turner, he's got great barrel control, right? And he's going to make great swinging decisions. So him not swinging that hard, it's fine. It's not a big deal. But you look up and down the line up, and you look at the team that's a collective, and maybe this is a way to kind of explain why they haven't hit for as much power as we think, because they're just not a team that brings the bat as hard as other teams. Yeah, and this is just now publicly available. Like I'm assuming obviously that these teams have already had access to this information and are guiding some of their decision-making, right? Ben, how much of this stuff is used in your opinion for these organizations when they're targeting free agents or projecting how good their offense could be? Yeah, I mean, it could be information that you use, even from the moment you're drafting players. I'm still getting familiar with it and haven't had the chance to break this down in conversations with executives around the game yet. But I think it's a really interesting question, right? Because ultimately, you're talking about a skill that's really important, and if you're making acquisitions, you'd probably want to factor that in. Okay, last one, before they go. So maybe the Blue Jays are just really good. Like they've just been playing possum with us and like, yeah, Vlad and Bo, they're gonna be smashing dangers on the routine and eight and nine runs a game is gonna start happening. I tend to think probably not. They're gonna still win some games because the pitching is quite good, especially starting pitching. It's hard for me to envision a scenario where they really not just look like a playoff team, but like a team that could do damage in the postseason. And that's not to say that all is like all hope should be lost for this generation of Blue Jays players, but that maybe like a slight selloff is the best mode of operation here for the guys that are pending free agents and recouping assets and focusing on 2025. Is there an argument to be made, Ben, that the best thing for this team would actually be to make it like so obvious that you need to sell off at least those guys before the deadline? - Well, yeah, I mean, I think that the record will tell the Blue Jays what to do. And so by July 20th, July 25th, well, no, you can look up and that's the great thing about baseball is it's so complicated and we have all this information like swinging, tracking data, but at the end of the day, it's really your record. It's not that much more complicated. I mean, of course, you're gonna look at underlying stats and you're gonna try to take into account certain projections and health and all of that. But by the time you get to late July, the Jays will either be in the thing or they won't. And if they're in it, great, they can buy and we'll see what happens, right? Doesn't seem like a powerhouse. I agree with you there, but strange things happen in the playoffs. So if they're above 500, they'll be buying, we'll follow the team with the contender in the summer. And if there are a few games below 500, then I think at that point, you just have to sell. And it sucks, right? Like that's not how they went into the season. This is supposed to be some of the peak kind of climactic years for this core. But hey, if you're out of it, you're out of it. So you just have to adjust to whatever you see in front of you in the standings and with the health of the team. So I certainly can't rule out a possibility of giving your CF. You say Kukuchi and others being traded at the deadline. - Yeah, I mean, the interesting question for me will be if you're at 500 or like a game or two above 500, whether you have the gut to wave goodbye to those guys and not add at the very least, but yeah, probably just recoup assets. That'll be the interesting one, Ben, because yeah, it'll be obvious if they're like five, 10 games under 500. But like if they're at 500, they're like, "Yeah, we're just like a runaway." But everyone watches, you know, this team on the daily and understands, okay, sure, anybody can win when you get to the playoffs. But yeah, let's be realistic about it. That'll be the interesting conversation. - Yeah, and I think that's where it's like, okay, where are the other playoff teams set, right? So let's say you're one game, let's say you're 49 and 50. Well, you know, are there three wildcard teams like have the Tigers and Royals really run away with this? Are the Mariners really, really running away with this? Or if all those teams are around 500, too, you're a game and a half out. I mean, I have no, if you're a game and a half out, I have no problem holding on to those guys. But you know, that's really where the devil's in the details. You just kind of look at where you're at. You know, the playoff odds are going to factor in, but I don't think it's worth it, right? Like I think that, you know, you and Brent and I could kind of make that call up, you just look at it and then that tells you what you have to do. - I'm calling it today, sell off. - I'm gonna sell those guys. - Can I do it now? - Sell, sell, sell. - Well, you can't, no one can do it now, that's the thing. - I mean, I just have to wait. - It's gonna say, put me in the chair. I got the guts, I'll do it. Nah, nah, it's baseball, I didn't think it happened. Including this team being one of the best offensive teams in baseball despite having the slowest swings in baseball. No, that'll, that for sure will happen. - Damn it the white socks, over night. Anyways, maybe not. Ben, always appreciate it. Thanks buddy. - You got it guys, have a good one. - You too, Ben Nichols and Smith of the At The Letters Podcast and our insider brought to you by Don Valley, North Lexus where you can expect excellence online and in the showroom, visit donvalleynorthlexus.com. That's the thing. - Nah, I don't think. - We'd be running out of town, selling already. - Yeah. - These guys don't have any faith in Bo. - I mean, you can do it. I mean, the Marlins already did it. - But yeah, that's the thing. Like, we got stats now and now we have beyond stats, we have swing speed stuff. Like, I don't know what else do you need to know? - It makes me think of beyond meat and it's like, wait, they're not real stats? - No, they are, they're just really good. It's like the wag who of stats. - Yeah, what is, hey listen, it's all about results, right? Process, we're done with process in this city, okay? When it comes to our pro sports team. - Yeah, we don't trust it. - So like, if they had the slowest swings in all of baseball as they do, but they were scoring 10 runs again, we'd be like, so what, watch this? - Yeah, you see, keep that bat in the zone so long. - Oh no, that's different, that's a different metric. I mean, also, this only being a one year sample, we have no idea, like, do these, does, are you what you are at the beginning of the season when it comes to swing speed by the end of the season? Like, is there a changing swing speed, do you mean? - Yeah, or like the reverse, like, oh, you're just loosening it up. - No, they're just getting loose. And now the real swings are about to take place. - Now the real swings happen in June. - But to me, that's, that seems like pretty damning, that you would have the slowest swings in baseball and you're one of the worst officers in baseball. Those do feel like correlated. - Yeah, I just see that chart and I don't know, maybe one exists, maybe if it's like nicest uniforms in the major leagues, but I don't think there's a chart that exists that you want to be next to the White Sox on. - No, you can have any numbers you want. I don't want to be anywhere near. - Not this year. - No, no, they're big. - Yeah, of course, like there have been times. We remember Mark Burley, other notable White Sox. - All right, we have another Toronto FC giveaway for our listeners today, this time for Saturday's matchup against the rival CF Montreal at 730 at BMO Field to enter for a chance to win these tickets. Text today's code word, CF Montreal to 59590. Again, today's code word is CF Montreal. Text it into 59590 right now to enter for your chance to win tickets to Saturday's game. If you don't win with us, you can secure your tickets to Saturday's match at ticketmaster.ca. More details available at sportsnet.ca/590. When we come back, Dr. John Scott, former NHL forward, host of the Drop in the Gloves podcast next as the fan morning show continues Ben and his Brent Gunning Sportsnet 590 the fan. - Covering the blue J's from an analytical perspective, J's Talk Plus with Blake Murphy. Be sure to subscribe and download J's Talk on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. - Fan morning shows, Sportsnet 590 the fan, Ben and his Brent Gunning, it's an off-season of change. We think for the Toronto Maple Leafs, at least the head coach has changed. That much we know for certain, sorry happened. - Can't confirm. - Unless they look around, they're like, you know what would be good for this team? - Hey Sheldon, Sheldon, you wanna come in for an interview? - No, the head coach is gonna be different. - Feels like the roster is gonna be different. How different, we'll see. Let's talk to John Scott, former NHL forward, host of the Drop in the Gloves podcast. How's it going John? - It is going good, how are you guys doing? - Doing all right. So no more like, oh we were so close, although some of the players did say that, like in factually I guess they were. Like game seven over time, it's pretty close to beating the Bruins in the first round who are getting their clocks cleaned by the Panthers as we thought they might in the second round. Anyways, the people in charge of the decisions here haven't said we're so close. It's like we gotta, we gotta reevaluate things. How far away are they though, do you think? - I think they're a long way away. I think it's noticeable every single year that they're regressing a little bit as we move on. You want teams to progress. You look at the Corps around the league who have won Stanley Cups and it seems like they learn stuff from their playoff losses and get better throughout the year and progress in the postseason. The Leafs regress this year. They don't seem to be learning their lessons. Much smarter at a terrible playoffs, obviously injuries and health stuff with Austin Matthews, but like what can you say they got better with this year? And if for me that's like red flags everywhere with this team. - Yeah, it was definitely a step back. You know, there's been a big belief in this market for sure that somebody needed to go and it wasn't even necessary, and this is in years past, not necessarily for change in terms of making the team better, but to make the players understand that there are consequences and you don't just get to run it back. And it does seem like you're finally at a point. How much of a wake up, 'cause generally speaking it seems like everybody presumes and rightfully so. Matthews obviously not going anywhere. They just signed Neelander hard to envision him going anywhere. So it tends to fall on a Tavares, a Mitch Marner. How do you think that would affect Austin Matthews or William Neelander in terms of the, I don't know like growing up for lack of a better term, it would make them do seeing, wow, look at the changes that happened if a Marner at Tavares was dealt, 'cause there's been a belief that it would kind of make something click for them as players, not that they'd be better, but it just of a more seriousness. So you see the consequences of the lack of success. - I don't really buy into that. I think they would have figured that out three, four years ago when there was a regime change in Sheldon came in and Lou left and Brennan Shanahan's always been there, but I'm not one of the people who think a player can change just overnight and go, oh, we lost Mitch. I'm gonna start playing really, really well now. I'm gonna try hard. I'm gonna really, you know, give it my all. I think what changes this team is you have to get players in there who just are better, who are more suited for the playoffs, who are more just battle tested and ready to go. A Lionel Riley, he dipped his toe in the Toronto Maple Leafs water and he ran for the hills after that because he saw what his culture's like. So Mitch leaving is a good thing. I think you just have to infuse this roster with high-end guys who know how to win and can change the culture a little bit because it's just not a winning mentality in that locker, it seems like. - Yeah, it feels like Mitch Marner, like everybody in their mind has already had him traded out of town, which may very well take place. And it seems like on Friday, they were very much open to the idea of asking either him or both of Mitch Marner and John Tavares to waive their no move clauses. Would you be targeting Marner if you were another team? I know you did a lot of TV work with the Black Hawks broadcast crew. Like, is that it? If you were running the show in Chicago, would you want him running shotgun to Conor Badard? - Absolutely. Man, I don't want to get this twisted. Mitch Marner is a world-class talent. I love the way Mitch Marner plays the game. And if you put him shotgun or let him play with some young talent, I think you'll bring the best of the Conor Badard. With that in mind, you have to have veteran guys around him. I would let him go to Chicago because Nick Flaino's there. Flaino's a griggle bad. He knows how to play the game. And he doesn't let guys get away with anything. So he's the type of guy who's great for young players. He played great in Chicago this year. And I just want to touch back on the Toronto. I was on teams who didn't, you know, fulfill expectations. And the stuff I see after the season with the Leafs, it's not what you see from winning team. I was around John Tavares and Duncan Keith when they lost. They're pissed, they're upset, they're angry. You can see the emotion and the passion. And maybe we'll see it from the Leafs. Maybe they keep it hidden in the locker room, this and that, but it's completely different, you guys, from being around a team that has won Stanley Cup, who has been to the Promise Land. And, you know, has gone through the bumps and this and that. It doesn't give you the same vibe as what I watch the Leafs in their post-game press conferences. And when they're leaving, they seem to be okay. They're resigned to just being like, "Oh, you know what, we did pretty good." You know, we played West Boston just, you know, they're good over there. It's not what you want to hear. - No, it's not. Is there, is it too late? Is the die kind of cast on those guys with that personality? Or do you think a new coach coming in can, and, you know, I hear your answer about the player and that not making it? There's clearly going to be a different voice at head coach, you know, it seems to be like they're trending towards somebody that's going to come in and, quite frankly, yell at these guys. Get their face a little bit. Do you think that that is the right way for them to go about it? Do you have somebody that you think is kind of the ideal coach for Toronto? 'Cause it's not just about coaching the team, right? You have to be able to handle the Toronto market as well. And, you know, different guys can handle that better or worse as we've seen. - Yeah, going back to my Chicago days, I had Joel Clinvel. And I know there's some, you know, stuffed baggage that comes along with Joel. He was a fantastic coach. He knows how to play the room. He doesn't play favorites, but he also knows how to be, you know, the hard, iron fist when needed. But he also is a good players coach. So he toes that line really, really well. He's great with the media. And he has the rings and the respect to come along with him. So if they can make that work, you can get reinstated. I think you'd be a fantastic fit. The Craig Broobies, Todd McClellan's, they're all the same ilk. They're going to go in. They're going to yell, yell, yell. I don't think that resonates too much in the room. It just, it kind of falls on deaf ears, this play with Austin Matthews. He knows who he is. He's a stud. No coach is going to come in and tell him to change. He had a good year, but I just don't think that's the type of coach you need. - Yeah, I think, I mean, if you remove the other stuff from the equation, I think everybody would sign up for the Joel Quenville experience. It just feels like the recording on this stuff is there hasn't been any that leads you to believe that he's available to be hired. Yeah, you played under Todd McClellan as well. In 14, 15, your time at the Sharks, he has won rounds in the postseason with the Sharks, but that was a very disappointing postseason era for the San Jose Sharks. At least Craig Marouby has the cup ring that he can slam on the table. Does the McClellan postseason stuff disqualify him from being a legitimate candidate? - No, you know, I don't think so. But again, if you're a Leafs management or a Leafs player, it's kind of a same old, same old. There seems to be a rotation of coaches in the NHL who just go around, they get fired, they sit for a year, and then they get hired, and I just don't think a coach these days changes too much in the locker room on the ice. Yeah, he might change his systems up a little bit, but the systems put in place by Sheldon Keefe were just perfect for this team, and it didn't work out. So I think it has to be the players who change. I think you have to get new players in there, fresh bodies, and it has to happen with the top three guys. You can't keep rolling those three out and expect to win. You have to get marner out of there, you have to shift how that core is working. But I don't know, maybe Broobie comes in and yells at him for a year, and they have some success, but it's not a prolonged thing. It's like a total roll, I played on her torch too. I won around you guys, and it works for a little bit, and then I just lose with the fluster, and the players just start to tune you out. - Yeah, I think, I honestly think if it works, even for just once for four rounds, I think everybody'd be pretty happy about it, no matter how much Craig Barubie or whoever it is, is screaming at them there. Just to go back to Quenville, I think he feels like the perfect guy, 'cause there is an element of, and you know, Barubie would check this box. He has won a cup more recently than Quenville has, but it does seem like we are so beholden to this idea of some coach is gonna come in with rings and slam on the table and tell Austin Matthews a story about Jonathan Taves in the playoffs, or Morgan Riley, a story about Duncan Keith, and you know, as much as Quenville is the guy I think, I'm kinda with him that I don't know, you know, I don't know that it doesn't matter, they have to get this higher right, but it does just kinda come down to the guys. I wanna get your opinion on some of the other goings on in the playoffs here, so Sam Bennett, he's been ratting it up, he's been wanting to do that in the playoffs. First things first, your opinion on the sucker punch, not sucker punch on Brad Marshon, was that, was that, we know it was dirty, but was it like okay dirty or dirty dirty? - I think it was dirty dirty, I think the thing that makes it dirty is he was holding his stick, and I don't know if you've ever been in an altercation, if you have something in your hand. - Yeah, there's a roll of pennies. - He's been holding anything. - When I go to jail. - Roll a pennies. - Yeah. - It's, it makes it so much more impactful, and he really nailed Marshon on the button, and he went, you saw him, he went down, he was out, but yeah, I thought it should have been a suspension. And, and shame on George Perrows for not catching that, 'cause he saw the video, it came out later for us, and everybody was up in arms, but he should have gotten at least one game. It was a dirty play, he sees Marshon coming, but it's one of those things where, you know, you wanna play around if you're Brad Marshon, he's running around, chirping guys, just being the kind of Brad Marshon, that's the stuff you're gonna have to expect, and Sam Bennett's more than happy to dole it out, so no penalty, no suspension, it works out for Sam Bennett. - Yeah, and Brad Marshon's a pretty significant player to be lost for the Boston Bruins. There was like, yeah, I think maybe a nightmare scenario in this city that we could have had the same conversation if the Bruins, after they won game one of this series, was like, oh, here they go, all the way to a cup final, or maybe they're gonna win it, and maybe they don't, game seven over time, doesn't look so bad. I mean, now that they are, and yeah, I know, Brad Marshon, like an important player to miss, but it looks like they're gonna bow up pretty quickly in this series to a team that we thought might control this series. Does that impact the way we should view that seven game series between the Leafs and Bruins? - I hope not, I think it's two separate teams. The Leafs have so many issues, they shouldn't be worried about what happens the next round to make themselves feel better about all their inadequacies. This is the team that needs to change you won one playoff round in how many years now with this core, and you've been dominant in the regular season, it would be shocking to go and see the regular season wins since these guys started to get together in what, 2015, 16 that came together? Were they ranked with the other teams in the regulation wins compared to playoff wins? 'Cause it's laughable, I bet, how little they've done in the playoffs. So no, I wouldn't take stock, and be like, oh, the Bruins lost too, so we got a lot of work to do. Or the Bruins made the Stanley Cup playoffs. Not so bad. (laughs) - Yeah, I mean, it is funny, you can kind of twist yourself into knots, especially in this sport, right? Because match ups matter so much, right? Like we've seen it with various teams, where they would just match up better or worse. Just stick 'em with that Boston Florida series. I don't know if you saw it, I imagine you did. Pat Maroon had the comments after the game, talking about how he's trying to go at Sam Bennett, and Sam Bennett didn't really have any desire to do that. I understand Maroon gets asked a question, I respect him for answering it, but it feels pretty telling that Maroon just kind of tells on himself that if you ignore me, there's only so much impact I can have on the game. What did you make of those comments from Maroon? I was pretty surprised to see him be so blunt about it, honestly. - I think you nailed it. He's pretty irrelevant. And listen, this is coming from me, who I knew I was irrelevant for 10 years in professional hockey. I get it, but you're saying the quiet part out loud, Pat. You're supposed to just keep that quiet, but he's, yeah, if you ignore him, he goes away. If you just stop doing the stuff after the whistle, he goes away. And I think the Florida Panthers are just beating the Bruins at their own game. They're hitting, they're more physical, they're getting around the net. And then they don't do the after the whistle stuff. And when you do that, it takes Marcheanna of the game, it takes Pat Maroon out of the game. And they're a very easily beatable team. I think Toronto played into that a little bit in the first three games. They corrected, and then Boston just beat him in game seven. But yeah, it's funny to hear him say, "You'll just be quiet, Pat, you're gonna be able to eat Sam." Yeah, so Don Sweeney, he takes to the mic to, I mean, he wouldn't put it this way, but I will. Wine about the officiating, that's what he, the Bruins GM. How would the team have felt about that? I mean, forever, these guys have prided themselves on being the big, bad Bruins. And we'll settle our own scores on the ice. And even if there's not a score to settle, maybe we'll go settle one just for fun anyways. This just seems like such a departure from the identity that this team has been kind of going back to when Chara kind of signed there. And they started to build that Bruins culture. It's a different team. There's no Fortin and Luch and Chara and all these guys, McQuaid, like, no, it's a Campbell, it's a different team, it's a different era. So I think Don Sweeney's just doing whatever he can right now to try to change momentum, get the referees on his side, saying, "Hey, we need some help out here, we're getting killed." And the players, they know they're outmatched, they know they're outgunned. And it's embarrassing for your GM to have to go on TV and give a press conference in the middle of the series and say, "My guys, my guys are hurting, come on, give us some help here, it's pathetic." Like the players don't like it, but Sweeney, I get where he's coming from, he's trying anything you can 'cause he knows the Bruins are done. But it's, that's a player in that room. He's like, "Oh my gosh, it's like your dad coming to school. Don't you pick on my son." I tell you why you guys, don't do it, it's so bad. - I agree, but does he have a point? Like, should these refs be forced to answer questions from the media after they make decisions on the ice? - Well, what did you, like, how could anybody see that Sam Bennett punch? Unless you're sitting on the bench, you can't see it. Everybody in their brother didn't think it was a penalty, they thought it was fine until that one camera view up in the rafters that was focused right there saw it. So, I don't think the refs are doing that bad. I think it's the playoffs, you put the whistles away. That's what everybody loves about playoffs hockey. It gets physical, there's scrums, there's face washes. And then you complain because, "Oh, it's too rough." But you made, you made your bed in it for years and years like you were saying, you were the big bad Bruins and now it's coming back and you're just like, "I never mind, we don't have the guys anymore. I don't like this." So you can't have it both ways. - I love it, yeah. Eda Boston, you've done it to everybody for a decade. You can have your turn, someone else can Bruins you. Does Carson Sousie get in the one game suspension nullify any need for vengeance or bloodletting in the Oilers Canucks series? You cross-check anybody in the mouth. Teammates aren't gonna be happy about it. You cross-check McDavid in the mouth and it's a very, very different thing. What type of response do you expect from Edmonton? Is it simple that, "Hey, it's playoffs. Can't worry about that." What do you expect in the aftermath of that? - I don't think Sousie does anything wrong. I think McDavid slashes him and it's like, "Okay, this is what happens when you slash someone on the knee in the playoffs. It's the door off who creates the whole play." But poor Sousie, he's a product of his door off and from behind. I don't know. I don't think Edmonton has anybody who can do anything. What are you gonna do? I think Vancouver has the two or three toughest guys on the ice, so you're gonna send Corey Perry after him. Evander Cane's been invisible. He's gonna continue to be invisible. So I don't think there's anything going on. The Oilers need to worry about 5 on 5. They have nothing going on 5 on 5. Hopefully they can get the power plays out of this, but they're in a heap of trouble right now. Vancouver's playing fantastic hockey and the Israelis need to figure out about how to stop anything because they look really, really badly. - Yeah, gold tanning. Not been great for the Oilers either. - Yeah, it's been rough. John, thanks for this, man. - No worries, guys, this was great. Thank you. - Thanks, John, John Scott, former NHL forward, host of the Dropping the Gloves podcast. Indeed, the Oilers got to worry about winning a hockey game first before any retribution and no Carson Sousie, so they can't directly go at him. Yeah, I do love John's, like poor Carson Sousie, he didn't mean to cross check him in the face. It's Nikita Zadora's fault for cross-checking Conor McDavid in the back. - I fist-punked when he gave that answer. I loved it so much. That was great. John Scott was basically just copping his ear like Hulk Hogan to me throughout that entire hit. I mean, he's a little down on the Leafs, which like he's not wrong about, but it's like I don't lean on me. - He also knows what pays the bills. - Yeah, oh yeah. The Joel Quenville, a little. - Yep. - And it, 'cause we're so far down the line here, it feels like that's just not gonna happen, right? So let me just alert you to something that happened on our show on Friday. This isn't like, this isn't breaking news to play us out or anything, but we had Wachinsky on and this will shock you. Aspo Joel Quenville. And he had said in a conversation, he had had with somebody connected to the league, it's that he was of the believer, this person that wish it spoke to was of the belief that if somebody asks, there is a very real possibility that Quenville could be reinstated. And he even tied the possibility of, I know it was 100 years ago, but Brendan Shanahan being a league guy coming from the league office. I have worked under the exact opposite assumption that they'd clear him for just about anywhere else, but never in Toronto. But I thought that was interesting that they wish it at least had one conversation that intimated that maybe if they'd asked, it was a possibility. - If that's true, why aren't the Leafs asking? - They should ask, because here's the thing. - Hey, Craig Baroubi, could he do well here? - It's possible. - Did he win a Stanley Cup in recent vintage? Yeah, he certainly did. Tom McClellan, despite the lack of post-season success, could he be good? - Yeah, sure, fine. Even Rod Brindemore, like, could he be the answer? Maybe. - Yep. - No, those guys are Joel Quenville. - Nope. - Who, like, you take the stuff that happened at the end, which I'm not, like, glossing over. But also, we probably need to have a conversation about his role in that. - For sure. - But, like, this guy is a Hall of Fame head coach. And, okay, like, it's six and one, half-dozen, the other with the other guys, like, honestly. - Yeah, I agree. - Like, it really is. I mean, to our conversation with Damien Cox, all those guys are kind of the same guy, other than yelling scream. And ultimately, it's an NHL head coach sport where I think of all the major North American pro sports, although, yeah, basketball probably close. Like, the coach has the smallest impact on the game and strategy 'cause it's, like, more, I think, of a flowing, free-flowing game. Anyways. - Doing my summer topic, yeah. - Anyways, there's one guy that stands above the rest. And the guy that we would have said, you know, a decade ago was Mike Babcock. And when they moved heaven and earth. - Yep. - Boy, Buffalo Sabres maybe dodged a bullet there. Although, maybe things weren't, it couldn't have gone worse. - Well, it's like, does Babcock kept them into the playoffs? And then they're just a playoff team. And then they too could have a bunch of first round failures. And guess what? They'd sign up for that in Buffalo right now. - Yeah, but this is supposed to be what this team does. It has the bottomless pockets. It goes out and uses the resources where it can, which is not in players because of the salary cap. And not that Joel Quenville is even gonna command the type of dollars that you would think a guy like Joel Quenville would. I think you'd take, like, middle of the road market value to get back in the league and rehabilitate his image. Why isn't this more of a conversation? If you believe, like, if you're Brad and Shannon, you're Brad for living, you're Keith Pelly, the Joel Quenville is the best guy. And how could you not? - Yep. - Like, I don't know what the argument, we're just talking about doing that job. How is he not the best candidate? How are we, how is this not more of a conversation? - Well, I think the argument, and I'm not one who believes it 'cause if it were, I'll just be on the record that if we're up to me and the NHL would allow it, I would be hiring Joel Quenville as head coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs. Like, I would walk through those doors easily, but I think if you're gonna make the argument on the other side, he has been out of the game a little while. I know he had the stint with Florida, but this is not a guy that was coaching five minutes ago. Like, there has been an element of the generational players that he had success with. This guy's are leaving the sport right now. Patrick Kane on his last legs, Jonathan Taves, same exact thing. Again, I'm not buying that argument, but I think that would be the reason why. And then you have to throw in the PR of it all. And I don't say that to mean they'd shy away from it, but it's how does that affect your hockey team? If you feel like this becomes a story aside from it, I'd think if you name them now, it's a complete moot point by the time training camp rolls around, but that's, those are the two reasons why. It's the PR spin of it. And is this the generation of players he had success with or was it the last one? Again, not my argument, I'd hire him, but I think that's why. Yeah, I think I have a counter for both of those. Okay, I agree with them already. Yeah, I have 30 seconds left, so I'm not gonna get into it. But yeah, it's just, it's weird that that has not been more on the radar for the most high profile job in the sport. I wanted the Friday presser for them to be pushing that and to use the pulpit. They didn't. Whoopsie. All right, we'll go back tomorrow with another edition of the fan morning show, Ben and his friend gunning, Sportsnet 5.9 in the fan. Good morning. This was a huge (beep) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (dramatic music)
