[MUSIC] >> Fan morning shows, 475 kind of the fan, Ben and I said, Brent Gunning, Blue Jays, and Orioles, possibly, likely I think. In looking at my weather app, going to wrap up their series this afternoon in Baltimore 1235. Looks like it's cloudy, maybe some showers in the morning, like an allage. But by 1230, you should just be overcast. >> Well, fine. >> And I don't want to put too much pressure on the forecast. You just gave us here, but you should always take Ben Ennis's weather forecasts. You should take them as gospel because you're a golfer. >> Yeah. >> And you love, like you love planes and golf. It feels like I keep tabs of the weather. Cuz every day I leave here tell myself I'm gonna go play golf and then I'm like, I'm tired. But I always want to know, is it an option? It's like, if you want to know the weather, talk to the golf person. >> I do, I pay attention to it quite often, and I'm aware of the likelihood of rain in around the GTA, but I always err on the side of optimism. >> Okay. >> Because everybody's usually wrong, how? >> Because of experience, honestly, I played the other day, supposed to play with a group of guys. They all cancel it cuz rain is in the forecast, guys. There's rain in the forecast. >> I'm surprised to hear that cuz I was driving by, again, no free ads, but the place you play golf. And I can see the first tee from the highway, free ads still. And it was like a raining sideways, had the wipers on full tilt, and it looked like there was like two groups of guys waiting to go off. >> There are people that will play like that. I was supposed to play with some retired old guys who were like, we're just gonna play tomorrow. So like, we'll just do that. >> Generally speaking, that would be my move as well. >> But there's nothing more infuriating in golf or baseball for that matter, where it's like the forecast says there's rain, so we're canceling it before we even see if it actually does in fact rain. No, I gotta see proof of concept with rain. It was apparently raining yesterday. It looks better today. But yeah, no, it's gotta actually be raining before you call a rain out. So at last check, the Blue Jays were beating the Baltimore Orioles, which is not an insignificant task. >> Good team. >> And they were trying, who am I talking about? >> Yeah. I think we know. >> Yeah. >> The Blue Jays were three and ten against the Orioles last season, want to know this season. But beyond that, and being boy, it was the Dalton Varshow game because he stole a home run, also hit the game tying home run in the eighth inning and then drove in the eventual game winning run in extra innings. But more significant than that was the eight times on base that Vladimir Guerrero Jr. and Boba Shett spent in the middle of that game. All resulted in one run and no RBIs, but that's the proof of concept. How convinced are you that it's happening now, Brent, that, okay, maybe it's not 2021, Vladimir Guerrero Jr., he'd have to hit a home run for that to be the case, and I think he's still sitting on four, but whatever, and Boba Shett, you know, it's a lot of opposite field hits. But that's how he gets going. How convinced are you that this is happening now? With those two guys specifically, I'm convinced to vary in degrees with Bo, we've seen this before, and the second there is one little smoldering ember can be, and can an ember be smoldering? I guess a coal could be the second there's a little glint to light in the fire pit with Bo. I go, okay. That's fine. I know where this is going with Vlad. We've been through it before. There have been some stops and starts. I don't say that to say that you don't buy what you're seeing. I think you hope he can build on this, but I'm not as certain that this is the start of something as I am with the shed. Okay. So I pay attention to weather because it impacts my ability to watch a baseball game on television. It affects our next guest's job. So he's definitely paying attention to the weather. It's Dan Schulman from Baltimore. Dan, thanks for doing this. How are we looking today? I think we're looking okay. So it's raining now. It's supposed to rain through the morning, but it looks like it's going to stop. Around noon or one. The game is 12.35. So I don't know if it'll start on time, but I'm pretty, pretty, pretty certain it'll get played today. So maybe a little bit late, but it sounds like both teams want to do everything they can to avoid having to play on the mutual off day tomorrow, which is why when last night was postponed, they went right to the double header in July. I don't think anybody wants players like their off days and broadcasters like their off days. So I think they're going to do everything they can to play today. And I think we're in pretty good shape. Okay, good. Fingers crossed. All right. So I was trying to run down some, like, I'm trying to dig and find a reason for optimism when it concerns the Blue Jays offense and reasons why it can be better than it's been. And I think the most obvious one is that, hey, flat and bow are going to be better than this. They just have to be. But I also think this is interesting information for people to have that they don't have. And this is not excusing anything. You've got to be good pitching to win. And just because it feels like the Blue Jays aren't a playoff team, the front office views them as a World Series contender, right? They wouldn't be paying into the luxury tax if they didn't believe so. But they played the Yankees who have the second best ERA in baseball. They played the Dodgers who have the third best ERA in baseball. They played the Phillies who have the fourth best ERA in baseball. They played one game against the Orioles who have the sixth best ERA in baseball in baseball and the Mariners eighth best. They have played maybe not the best teams in the world. All those teams are really good, though. But some of the best pitching in baseball, does that add to maybe some of the offensive context for this team through a month and a bit of the season? I think it goes to a small extent, like I'm not willing to say, hey, they're doing fine. It's just that they play good teams who have good pitching stats. But I think there's a little something to it. I did see like two days ago, not in terms of pitching per se, just in terms of strength of schedule, that they had played the third tough of schedule. But you know what, when you play in the American League East, you're always going to have one of the tough of schedules because you're playing 52 games against four other good teams. So yes, they will play weaker pitching stats. Yes, they will play weaker teams. I guess the issue for me is, and there's a stretch like that coming around the bend, right? It's white Sox, Tigers, white Sox, Pirates, which I don't know if it's 12 or 13. I think one of the series might be, let's, I think it's 13 games. I think there's a four game series in there. So okay, but then you've got to go 10 and three in that stretch. You can't go seven and six. You know, if you're, if you're, if you want to say, hey, part of it is this, part of it is that then you got to go beat up the teams, you're supposed to beat up. So listen, an encouraging win. The other night, obviously, Barrios was great, which was good to see him coming back off the start that he had against the Phillies, but they still got to swing the bats more. And yes, flat. He's been really good the last couple of weeks and there are signs for Boba Shad having Danny Jansen back helps Kirk looks better. They still need more though, right? He had just to be an average offense and I think realistically going forward, I don't think anybody's expecting this to be like from today to the end of the season. What's your best case scenario? I don't think anybody's expecting this to be a top five offense or anything like that. It's, can you be more middle of the pack than 27 kind of things? So, you know, we will see, I think they're finding out who they are. Like David Schneider's playing a lot more than he was at the beginning of the year. Danny Jansen's playing more than Alejandro Kirk. That wasn't the original plan. So, we'll see how it goes, but Vlad has to keep going. Bo has to continue getting going like it looks and, you know, again, it would be great if they got some offense from George Springer. They need that as well, whatever he gets back into the lineup. Yeah, I mean, Springer, Springer in the lead off spot, you know, let's, let's just stick right there. That has obviously been a point of contention. You mentioned David Schneider. That has been somebody that I think a lot of fans have wanted to see in that spot and you have seen him in that spot, but that's typically come on a day when George Springer has been unavailable. Do you think the body of work is getting to a point where it's going to become undeniable to move Springer down in the order? I mean, again, we've seen it sparingly, you know, this illness whipping through the team. That's maybe given them a little cover to allow Schneider to go up there. How do you think they'll, they'll continue forward with the lead off spot and is it more about Davis Schneider having to continue to steal the job as opposed to them, you know, taking it from George Springer? You know what? It's a great, those are great questions and I'll give you my honest answer. I have no idea because I thought it would have been done by now and it hasn't. So as you say, Schneider has never been in the lead off spot when Springer has been in the lineup. Springer has never not been in the lead off spot this year. They did it last year for about 18 games. That's when Whit Merrickfield was on a tear and they put him up. So I don't know what they're going to do. I think part of it has to do with where Bischette is hitting again because if you just start saying, okay, these are the guys I want at the top of the lineup. If Schneider's on the list and Lattie's on the list and bar shows on the list and Janssen's on the list and Turner's on the list, that's five guys. There's no way that they're going to hit Bischette in the spring or six, seven. No, I don't see it. And now Bo, I think very quickly is going to work his way back up towards the top and that's great. It's just teammates. I don't know. Maybe that makes it a little bit easier, but I think a lot of it is on how Schneider does and you hate to kind of see that because it's like a very small sample size, right? It's three, four games that we're talking about, but I wish I could give you an answer, but I can't even make a prediction because John Schneider gets asked literally every day about this and they haven't yet been willing to commit to that when both Springer and Schneider have been in the lineup. I do know that John Schneider feels you don't want to put players in too big of a spot for them and he's not talking about David Schneider specifically, but he has said a few times about moving guys around. It's not just moving guys down. It's who you're moving up and can they handle it and that sort of thing. So I'd love to give you an informed answer with all kinds of evidence, but I don't have any of that. That's behind closed doors. Yeah, that would be quite a thing to see George Springer with two years left on his deal paying him more than 24 million per in 25 and 26 moved down to the bottom half of the order, but that has to be coming at some point here, Dan, right? If he's going to be a Blue Jay for the next two years considering what has happened to his offense, like at some point that decision probably has to be made, doesn't it? If he doesn't hit, yes, but I don't know what that point is. I don't know if it's two days or two weeks or two months. Again, I have no idea. So that's up to John Schneider and everybody else who gives their who has input into what the lineup is. But yes, and the only thing to that end that I have heard John Schneider say is something along the lines of, you don't forget to the point where you feel like you're banging your head against the wall, then you make a change. But we'll see. I don't know, you know, the opt-in, I don't know if they're going to change the lineup and if Springer will be back in there today. I saw him yesterday for the first time in about three days and he looked better, maybe not 100%, but he looked better than you guys saw on TV a couple of nights ago when he was sitting with Turner. Turner still didn't look great to me. So I don't know if either or both will be in the lineup. We know that Cure Meyers back and Chance's back, at least they were in last night's lineup. So I don't know if George is in there, but you know, for every day, George is out. It allows them, again, to put off the decision or at least put off the questions about the decision a little bit more. How much are people talking about this new swing data stuff, Dan? Because it's been really interesting to see and obviously it's like, it's not a surprise the Blue Jays. Like, I'm sure Ross Atkins isn't like, oh my God, we have the slowest swings in baseball. I had no idea. I'm sure they're aware of it, but it is, boy, it makes a little sense, right, that this team with its offensive struggles would have the slowest average bat speed. How much of a point of conversation is that among baseball people now that we know definitively that by average bat speed, the Blue Jays have the slowest? Yeah, I think a little bit. I mean, and this wasn't specifically bat speed, but John Schneider a couple of days ago and he was talking to the media and I followed up with him. I sounded like there was a bit of a change in the messaging and the philosophy that they've been all about swing decisions and only swinging the pitches that you can do damage with and so on and that maybe they have been sacrificing damage for contact. And to me, and I don't claim to be an expert on bat speed and swing length and some of these new things that have come out, all things being equal, it makes sense, the faster you swing the bat, the harder you swing the bat, however you want to say it, the further the ball is going to go. But in most cases, the harder you swing, maybe the more contact you're giving up to, right? So it's a balance between contact and damage and I think this team may be unwittingly skewed a little bit too far to the contact side, to the swing decision side. And now, you know, and John Schneider has said things like, if you're going to go after it, like really go after it, like, you know, we joked about waffle like the ball like there haven't been enough waffles on this team so far this year. So I'm sure they're, you know, again, the team internally, they always have more numbers than anything external to my understanding anyway. So I'm sure they know about this. But to me, it's not so cut and dried because, I mean, one of the things I saw as an adjust interner has the slowest swing speed on the team and he had the slowest swing speed on the team the first four weeks of the season when he was the best hitter on the team. So it's the shortest swing, though, right, so like he makes up for it, I think. Right. So it's about how hard you swing. Are you able to pull the ball, which Turner's great at, right? It's easier to hit a ball 340 down the line than 400 to center. And Turner is great at that. It's about the quality of the contact. It's about a lot of different, you know, your pitch selection. It's about a lot of different things. So I haven't heard a ton about it and I don't think what has come out publicly has changed anything inside the organization. I think they've got a pretty good idea of what they're not doing well. Now it's just a question of trying to figure out how to fix it. Yeah, certainly a code they want to crack. Another one of those was what's up with Alec Manoa. I'm not going to say they fixed it and it's all the way back, but that certainly was encouraging what we saw on on Sunday, you know, with somebody who has and, you know, feels like so long ago, but relatively recently has reached the heights that Manoa has reached. How many outings do they need to see that look something like that from Manoa before they're kind of all the way back? And I don't say that from a, from a standpoint of rolling them out there every fifth day. I think that he is, you know, a part of this rotation now, you know, until further notice. But how many of those outings do you have to see from Manoa before you're looking at a guy who again can potentially be giving you like front end of the rotation stuff here? It's crazy to think that, that it could be all the way back there. And I didn't think I'd be there quite frankly, but that outing on Sunday was so encouraging. It was extremely encouraging. He did have a couple of really strong outings even last year and, you know, people forget about it. Like Jose burrios two years ago, when he had his quote, bad season, had 23 really good outings and nine really bad outings. Like guys have good outings and bad years and bad outings and good years and so I'm, you know, in terms of front end of the rotation stuff, I think you got to go a little slower than that right now. I mean, it was not, it was beyond encouraging because it wasn't like, oh, they hit rockets at people and it wasn't like he, you know, pitched out of trouble a ton or was behind a ton of batters like none of that happened. He was really, really good against a good offensive team and I, and it was a great outing. So, but I think you kind of got to take it start by start right now in terms of expectations. In terms of Izzy in there, as you said, like he's in there because they don't have any other options right now. I mean, if he went out and had three ugly ones in a row that I'm sure they'd go back to whatever the next plan BCD is, but right now they really need him to grab this spot. It helps on a couple of fronts because then I think when Yari El Rodriguez comes back, you know, you can put him in the, in the bullpen if you want as a longnet down, Francis is getting close, put him in the bullpen as a longnet. So I think it gives them more options, but in terms of expectations, I think you got to go a little bit slower and, you know, if he has, if four of the next five are really good, great. Then maybe you can start taking a deep breath and relaxing a little bit and saying, okay, everything's going to be fine, but I, you know, it was just two starts ago when it didn't go well and he gave up six runs and walked four and hit one and all that sort of thing. So I think we've got to give him a little bit of time and just see how it plays out. Hard to have a better game than Dalton Varshot did on, on Monday, Dan, where you see a home run, you tie the game up with a home run and then you provide the game-winning RBI in extra innings. So this is like from an OBS standpoint, this is kind of, this is the Dalton Varshot that we saw in 2022 in a full season with the Arizona Diamondbacks. I think if you'd pull most people that are anti-Ross Atkins, they would point to that trade as being the definitive proof that he's no good at his job. Like how different is the narrative if this is the Dalton Varshot we saw last year? Yeah. The narrative amongst the fans? Yeah. Okay. Or just, I don't think that's going to be. Okay. How differently do we view the trade if this is what I mean? I think a lot of people are always going to be opposed to the trade for a couple of reasons. I mean, it was a two for one and the two were pretty big names, right? And I'm pretty sure a lot of people who are still screaming about the trade don't know what Gabriel Moreno's offensive numbers are this year. He's one homerun. Right. Yeah. And even he's likely to be a high average, high contact, low power, probably below average OPS plus kind of hitter. I think there's a fair bit of body of evidence of that. Now we still young. He could develop and get better and better, but he's a terrific defensive catcher, obviously. So they gave up a lot. I thought Moreno for Varshot one for one was a really interesting trade. And I've been told by a couple of people that I know in Arizona, there is no chance, no way in the world that Diamondbacks ever would have made that deal. They never would have given up Varshot just for Moreno. And I think obviously that's true because the Blue Jays put Gabrielle into the deal as well. You know, it was the perfect storm of things that the front office didn't want to see because Gabrielle had a good year, and they went to the world series, you know, I think there's no way in the world. Most people scream about this on Twitter know that there's no way in the world, but, you know, never let the facts get in the way, you know, the good rant, but yes, they only won 84 games. They got hot and went to the World Series, but that's going to be that, you know, if you try to argue with somebody about this, that's it, but, but, but you're never going to get past that, right? You're never going to hear a word that you say. So I still think they gave up a lot. I wish they had found a way to keep Gabrielle. I think he would have, you know, really helped his team last year, but obviously they couldn't or felt they couldn't and made the deal. But, you know, Dalton Varshot is having a terrific year, and I know he's only hitting about 215 or something like that, but, and he's never going to be a 280 hitter. But I think if Dalton Varshot can hit 240 and I don't see why he can't, his 240 is a really valuable, powerful 240 because there's power there, there's more walks there, there's great base running there, and there's gold glove defense there. There's a lot of value in Dalton Varshot that, you know, Dalton Varshot were playing 30 years ago. People wouldn't value him much because batting average was the number one thing that people looked at. But, you know, given the time that we're in, people hopefully can see his value and he's a great player. And I feel badly that maybe he doesn't want a gold glove again this year because he's playing half and left and half and setter, and just the way it works, he might not win in either. You know, back a few years ago too, they just gave out three gold gloves for outfielders. There was no such thing as left center and right, and he'd have been an automatic in that scenario. So, he's a great player, and above and beyond that, you know, if you're into intangibles and stuff, like he's a 12 out of 10, I mean, you talk about a guy who cares and works and hustles and doesn't take, you know, if he's in a bad stretch of the plate, doesn't take that out into the field, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, like he's, he's a very good player. He shouldn't be expected to carry the team. He shouldn't be expected to be the best hitter on the team. There are other guys who are supposed to do that, but he's a very valuable player on this team. Plus, he's a Packers fan, which is like not it. Oh, yeah, I didn't know that. You don't say. I know. Like it. The listeners should understand that there is some needed context here. No, he's a great player. And yeah, had a great game on Monday. And hopefully we get to see him play baseball today in Baltimore. Fingers crossed, Dan. Thanks. All right, guys. Step on. All right, there's Dan Schulman. Dalton Varsho, quite good at his job. He was not very good last year. It's just there's no two ways about it. It's true. Invert, he did hit 20 home runs and he played amazing, amazing defense. That's true. Yes. Bradley Zimmer played amazing, amazing defense. He was an incredible defender at the most premium position. It's true. Swung a USA today when he stepped to the plate and Dalton Varsho didn't quite do that. He did hit 20 home runs, but no, he was just a well below average offensive player. That's not what the Blue Jays thought they were getting. They thought they were getting a guy that's not like overwhelming this season, although on this team, it stands out, right? Like the fact that he sits seven home runs, you're like, Oh my God, it is Babe Ruth 1927 reincarnate. But yeah, it's hitting 214 with the 308 on base and a 444 slug for an OBS of 752. And it'll OBS plus where 100 is league average 15% above league average at 115, which would be despite it not being the highest OBS of his career, a career high in OBS plus. Things aren't going well for this team right now. It puts more impetus on the like idea of the win now trade and you want this guy to be great. But Varsho has also helped so much by the fact that there is no competition to be an elite bat on this team, like you nail it there on any, not any other team, but on a competent offense, you go, OK, that's a guy. Maybe he's not hitting second. Yeah. I would venture to say not hitting second, maybe about it, but on this group or in this group, outside of bow and Vlad, there's no reason why he can't be the best hitter on the team, which again, I just I don't think he can be the best hitter on outside of those two. Oh, outside of those. Yeah. So yeah, can not will. Yeah. Yeah. You could have a better year than Justin Turner. Yeah. Yeah. Like that's the guy I presume you would go to next. Mm hmm. Janssen or power Schneider, like honestly, how could I forget? I mean, it depends on how you're like, who look who's best, like I don't know how you define it. If you're just going by OPS, yeah, I think, you know, the guy that's never had an OBS north of 800 in his entire career. Yeah. Yeah. And Davis Schneider, the only sample we have is a guy that just falls into an OPS north of 800. Mm hmm. Yeah. The bar is a little bit higher than that. But no, if you're playing that level of defense, you're stealing home runs, yep. You're hitting home runs, you're getting the bat on the ball. It's a, it's hard to ask anymore of a Dalton Varsha on playing that brand baseball. Like again, like there's not, not to say there's not frustrating parts of it. Of course there are, but it's like that guy should be fan favorite hits, bombs, steals bombs, plays a great center field defense, intangibles, but and rightfully so. It's not his fault, but it's also fair that people can't untie him from Gabriel Moreno. Yeah. Who had an incredible season last year and an incredible run in the postseason. Or he hit a bunch of home runs. Well, the, and the other thing about it too is that the Diamondbacks, and then this is just also like the nature of the sport, like with baseball, but the Diamondbacks are not front of mind, right? Like people now they think of Moreno as this great defensive catcher and he is. And he is. But if, if that doesn't pan out exactly the way or if there's a dip there, we're not going to notice that like you will and you'll bring it to our attention. But that it won't stick the same way it has. Like he is Gabriel Moreno now will always in this market be viewed as peak of his power Gabriel Moreno. And he might just be that guy. I'm not saying he can't, but if there is a world in two to three years where there's a dip, but he's not the same player, we're still having the conversation about it like they traded away Hall of Famer Gabriel Moreno to Dan's point Gabriel Moreno is likely like a league average offensive player, which makes him well above average at that position playing that type of defense. But yeah, it's not, I don't think you're going to look at Joe Rochman. Yeah, yeah. Adley Rochman. Yeah. What? Yeah. Welcome to the 21st century, Ben. Yeah. I guess my hour was in the 20th, first century to great sideburns. All right. When we come back, shave them, Mattingly, not sure if Jason Boogler has good sideburns or not. It doesn't strike me as I mean, I bet you at a time. Yeah. But now I don't think so. You know, the first question, he's clean cut now. But he has a manifesto upcoming on sportsnet.ca goes through every little piece of excruciating minutiae surrounding the Toronto Maple Leafs and the things that they have to consider, including like you can talk all you want about like trading Mitch Marner. Jason Boogler actually put a trade together. So we'll talk to him about that and more next as the fan morning show continues, Ben and his brand gunning sportsnet 5.90 the fan. Fan morning show sportsnet 5.90 the fan, Ben and his brand gunning, like this, I think I work hard, like put a lot of thought and effort into the topics we discuss on the show. You do. You're grinding. Okay. Settled wheels are spinning. Like I'm just like, no, you work hard. I close my eyes and like just try and concentrate really hard. But then you see like people who like actually, you know, have to do things and produce more than just air. Yeah. Like things that stand the test of time. Like our next guest who is our insider brought to you by Don Valley, North Lexus where you can expect excellence online and in the showroom, visit Don Valley North Lexus.com. Jason Bucholas, sportsnet hockey analyst, thanks for doing this, man. We got a sneak preview of your end of season manifesto for the Toronto Maple Leafs. That is extensive man. How long does that take you to put together? Yeah. Days. Good morning, guys. It's heavy left. I'm not going to deny that. I mean, 6,000 words in high school would have led me to skipping a lot of school. I'll put it to you that way. You know, when it gets published today, you know, the reality is when you dive into something like this, you have to do it the right way, you have to try and give the end user, which is obviously our people that read things. People will get checked out. I mean, this is something that they'll take two nights to read a bedtime type thing. But this is an inside look at how an organization conducts its business at the end of a year from the inside out because we always speculate, don't we, you know, they should do this, they should do that, you know, if we do this, if we do that, but it's important to take stock of absolutely everything. So not only your active roster, but your draft cap at all, your potential cap in the offseason, you know, trade scenarios if there's something you want to pursue, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, I went through every player in the organization on the big roster for the year end and then of course offered up some of my, I'm sure to be controversial takes a whole body. We will get to your Mitch Marner trade amongst others in a second. But yeah, like how how similar to what might actually come across Brad for Living's desk or he might be a part of putting together is what you did, right? Like is it everybody from each little different arm of the organization coming together with their reports? Like how many actual hypothetical scenarios are they going through with actual names played out? Like how, how close to what you did, will there be in the Leafs organization or already is in the Leafs organization right now? Yeah, they'll go through exactly this. So at the, at the end of the year, you know, they'll be conducting their coming out of the U18 world. So when I was in Finland, you know, like their clients in West Clark and, you know, Dave Morrison, the entire staff was over there. So they'll come back from there and, you know, they, they lost obviously shortly thereafter. So, you know, it's going to become a solemn meeting, but they'll conduct their amateur meetings and they'll also like in my history, we would bring the pros in at the same time. Excuse me. And so that we would work kind of the room in two different quadrants and the, you know, the amateurs will be building their list, the pros will be building the strategy. But we have to go over our depth chart. We have to go over depth charts of potential target teams in the league to see where we want to, you know, how prepared we want to be to make a focal. And we have to have brutally honest conversations. This is like a process that I put pen to paper on that would normally take five or six or seven days in a pro meeting amateur meeting scenario. Like these are, these are organized in meetings. So it's a long process with everybody having skin in the game. So the worst thing that you can do and when I work with, you know, with Dale Talon, especially, if you sat on your hands for three days and then came up with something out of the blue on day four, he's not very happy with you. You got to be, you got to be on it right from the beginning and everybody's going to be talking. Yeah, it's kind of like, you're hiding in the back corner. You know, you don't want to make the wrong assumption, but no, it's, it's a heavy left balance. It's fun though. You know, it is fun or you go the exact opposite way. You look Talon right in his eye, be like, I'm, I'm not scared. Don't call on me, please. But I'm not scared. Yeah. You do it either way. I, that was my move. Always like call their bluff. They think I'm confident they're not going to. When you, I imagine when you look at this and, you know, we've had all these conversations all year long, was there anything that when you really stepped back and took a look at the big picture that surprised you about the org? I mean, I imagine everything when you're looking at it on a player by player basis, you go, okay, this is more or less lockstep of how I felt as the years evolve. But when you really look at everything from 10,000 feet, was there anything that surprised you about the kind of state of the org when you looked at it in such a big picture way? Well, the first thing that stands always the lack of depth in the organization in terms of recall, we, the beliefs were fortunate that, that they brought in some guys in the back end, i.e., Benwa in the off season that, you know, obviously stepped up had a fantastic year, you know, way above his pay grade, really surprised me to be honest with you and get on them, right? And above the new pay grade as well. Yeah, I would say that too. Like, you know, he, like, his number going forward, which is like one three five, you know, if you look at how he played in the Boston series, you know, he played top four minutes. Is he a top four guy for 82 games, you know, if we're standing up contending outfit, probably not. But he's capable, right? So he's proven that. One of the things is that, ultimately, though, like Max stole only 14 minutes of average time on ice for the entire season on a balance, and that's not enough. If you take a look the way he was utilized, his best hockey came at the end of the year when he was elevated. So that's something we have to address as a group going forward, you know, if we bring him back. And that's another question, further on in the piece, you know, the goal tending as much as I'm a Joel Wolf in, and I was, you know, in Samson, I came back strong, you know, the numbers on wall and a small picture or in a small caption, really, like 25 games, you know, they're not exceptional guys, like we're talking like 902, save percentage and, you know, whatever was two 94 goals against average. So there's lots of things over the course, the entire season that jump out off of the piece that need to be addressed, to be perfectly blunt. One thing on the, you know, outside of the core guys, there's a lot of underlying things that people to the naked eye, I don't think appreciate, like Noah Gregor, I don't know if we bring him back or if they bring him back or not. But for the limited amount of ice time the sky played, like, which was like 11 minutes or less per night, he was hammering people and doing a lot of things very well for the group in the bottom of the line up, like 167 hits and, you know, if you play a regular shift, that's like a 200 plus hit guy in the four hole playing with pace, which brings value. So you also mentioned in the piece that you don't think they even approach John Tavares about waving his no move clause, of course, just the one year remaining for him, just like Mitch Marner. Should they though, like if that's, if that's a way to make your team better is move off of his cap hit and better reallocate those funds, I understand there's human impact there and I guess potential fallout, like, should they at least explore the waters or like when you open that can of worms is the potential for negative things happening just too great. I think the negative is going to be kind of floating around anyways. So, you know, when you've been paid the way John Tavares has been paid over the course of his career and he's a veteran guy, I would like to have that conversation. That would be my personal preference. I just don't know that they're going to do it. You know, there isn't, historically, I across the league, you know, this type of allegiance if you will to your captain and even as misguided as it can be because it's not really for the good of the group. Imagine if you could open up some of those funds, right, you know, further on in my piece with free agency targets, imagine what your roster could look like if you could trade Marner out and do something different with Tavares. I'd like them to have a conversation. I just, my gut feeling is that it's not going to happen. Yeah, it is. I mean, it's a tricky conversation to have. I certainly would like them to have it. Can you envision a world and, you know, I know this isn't quite part and parcel with the piece, but you've been in orgs that would have had to have some of these conversations I'd imagine. Is there a world where the captain see can be the kind of not care it, but stick to maybe force John Tavares into that? I don't think that John Tavares has been a bad captain and they need to strip him of the captaincy, but I do think if you're going to bring in a new head coach and maybe there's a sea trade trade trade elsewhere in the organization that if you were going to make that change ever, this off season is the time. How much would that be kind of a part of the conversation? I think that would just be the evolution of what's going on with the group going forward. And I think that conversation is a realistic one to be had. Again, I don't know that it will though, because out of respect, you know, when I watch the team now, like it looks like Matthews is the captain of the team now, like I think we all would agree with that. He looks like it's his team. The way he approaches the media, besides goal scoring and everything else, his underlying numbers, like the other things that he does very well now, guys, like he's evolved over time, right? So he's the captain for me. I just don't know that they need it to be stripped of one guy and put on another guy for that to happen. I don't know if it just adds another layer of distraction. I will say this. John Tavares is a great pro, but I don't know that he's the raw, raw, whole, accountable type of guy in the room, captain CY's, that the Leafs need at this time, because I'll give you an example. In Florida, Alexander Bark, I was a captain, and he's very similar to Tavares. He's kind of cerebral. I'm not going to say quiet, but he's monotone almost, but look at the Bulldogs that he's got around him that absolutely take over the room. Like that was really loud in the room, obviously to Chuck is there, so, you know, I don't know, like a change would be nice. I don't think it's going to happen, but it will happen in time. Okay, let's talk about your marner trade that you have proposed, and thank goodness for you for doing this, because so many people are yelling about a potential marner trade, but without showing what exactly that might look like. So what you have is marner, Timothy Lilligren, Nick Robertson, to San Jose for Mario Ferraro, a left-handed defenseman who is under contract for three more years, sorry, two more years at three, two, five. You've got Phillip Bysted, who is what, a former first-round pick, centerman with good size, played in the AHL last season, and a 2025 first-round pick. Obviously, this is not making you better just this trade alone for 2024-25. How much worse are you, and how much does freeing up $9 million allow you to potentially get better? So that's the caveat here. You know, and people are going to be, you know how this works. People are going to be throwing rocks out of glass holes today when they read this. You're going to lose a Mitch Marner trade no matter what happens. He's the best player in the deal. So what this does here is it not only solidifies, Marner Ferraro is way underrated defense for like this guy, don't look at San Jose, it was terrible, like beyond terrible. So don't look at the numbers so much, but look at how he plays the game. So that's a huge upgrade in the top four block shots, plays he can play in all situations if he needed. Phillip Bysted is the exact kind of Brad tree-living type of player, I believe that he is searching for 6 foot 4, 205 pound guy that can play in the middle, play the wing, lean on people in the hard areas. And then of course the first round pick in 2025 that we don't have, like our draft work is naked, isn't it? It's not very good for Toronto. So, but what it does, that $9 million dollars, wow, like it opens up a lot of flexibility. And later on in my piece, you're going to see how my roster planes out without a Mitch Marner trade. I think that, you know, there's pockets in there that maybe the team looks a little bit better, but you could on, you know, in addition to what I had proposed, you know, which was adding guys like Brandon Montour, Chandler Stevenson, you know, Alexander Carrier from Nashville, now you're getting into a situation where with that other 9 million, you can really do something creative. And, you know, you're starting to look at a just spitballing here, but, you know, Jonathan Marche so up front, you know, who scores 40 plus, or, you know, on the back end, you know, do you want to, you want to look at a 10, you have on a short term deal, do you want to look at, you know, something better in goal, like you want to make a trade with Nashville and bring in the UC Sorrows, but he's only going to be here for another year before you're going to pay him more. So, the flexibility that it offers you is absolutely enormous and it can't be understated. It's like, and that's for 9 million is one and a half really good players. Yeah, it's, it's hard hard to, especially for every good team in this league is Capstrap, but the Leafs were first to that. They were truly trendsetters in being in being Capstrapped and yeah, it's the, it just is a whole new sea change. That's the way you're able to allocate some of the money to the back end there. I don't want to make this just about Mario Ferreira. He's the guy, or Mario Ferreira. He's the guy you mentioned in the piece. When you're evaluating a defenseman on, and I do mean this more specifically with defenseman, although I guess the point would stand a little bit forward as well, how difficult is it to evaluate a player in every, in that every minute is a hard matchup minute for him because of not only who's out there on the other side, but who he's out there with when you play on a team that has struggled the way the Sharks teams have struggled, how hard is it from a, you know, a scouting perspective to have a true feel for what you're getting in a player like that? And again, you can make this specific to Ferreira or you can kind of expand it to the point about a player kind of coming from that position. I think that that's a fantastic point and it's, it's, it's very deep. So we live in a world of analytics in the National Hockey League nowadays. You know, people are going to take a look at underlying numbers and they're going to take a look at a whole bunch of the, for me, the stress of every shift for a guy like Mario Ferrejo in San Jose is, is compound like he, he literally can't take a shift. The San Jose Sharks this year, they had some, you know, fits and starts where they were okay. And they went on these little streaks and they, or whatever it's the NHL. You can catch a team on an off night, but overall this is the dealer. Yeah. There you go. So, but this is a team that's kind of like playing with four and a half against five. You know, if you have to get my drift that, that even strikes, so there's all kinds of stress all the time. And you know, that's the other thing you have to look at too when you're looking at goaltending. I mean, it's not easy. There's not an exact science. The things you're going to want to look for though is how they handle the puck on their own, tackle for a defense one here. So handling weight, competing in the trenches, consistency, executing with the puck, like playing to a consistent identity. The problem is when you start to look at a player like Mario Ferraro or anybody on a, on a team that's losing outfit, they're trying to do everything. If you get my drift and it kind of, it alludes what they do really well, like, you know, they get outside of the comfort zone. So that's, that's scouting. I don't, I don't have a scientific answer for you, but that's, that's volume of scouting and trusting the people in your room. Yeah. That's why they get paid. Last one, before we let you go, Jason, the, the most immediate decision that has to be made is who the next head coach is going to be for this Maple Leafs team. What, what is the first question? What is the thing you would want to know most about when it comes to the next head coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs? What I want to know about them individually, like if I was asking, yeah, exactly. If you were, if you were doing this interview and, and you were trying to gauge the way that they would handle this Leafs team in 24, 25, what would be the, the question that you're asking? My first question would be historically when you game prepped against us to play us. How did you game prep? What did you look at as our high values and what did you look at as areas of opportunity to expose our roster? And then beyond that, those areas of opportunity that you see to expose our roster, what would you do or what would you recommend in a perfect world to upper management to make changes so that those types of scenarios aren't exposed for us going forward? Yeah. That's smart. It wouldn't, it wouldn't just be, here's, here's a picture of Mitch Marner, show me how you scream at him. It wouldn't, it wouldn't just be that because I think people think that's what the interview is. Yeah. It's a little bit more involved in that coaches, coaches can't move the pieces on the transport that well. Yeah. Absolutely. Maybe that's Craig Buruby. Again, Jason, that the piece was, was awesome. And thanks so much for doing it. And it was a lot of hard work. And thanks for doing this today. Awesome guys. Have a great day. Talk to you soon. Sounds good. Jason Bukola, sports at hockey analyst and our insider brought to you by Don Valley, North Lexus, where you can expect excellence online and in the showroom, visit DonValleyNorthlexus.com. That big breakdown of the Toronto Maple Leafs off season dropping today. Yeah, put on. Put on a pot of coffee and get to reading it. I was happy to get a chance to peruse a little myself. So yeah, good piece of Buffalo there. That would be fun. Like obviously they would never do that. But it's like, Hey Mitch, what are you doing? We need you. You're a big part of this. We need you to sit in on the coaches meetings. All right. Go ahead. Let him have it. Go ahead. He's right here. Hey, you're a big, you're a big man. You want to yell? He's right here. Go ahead. And not that I think Buruby or any of these guys would have a problem doing it, but it, it's smart of Bucala and it's a good question by you to ask to point out that there is more to this than how mean are you going to be to the core four here. There is more to it than that. Believe it or not. Yeah. And I'm, I'm sure to my point earlier about the power play being important. I'm sure there is a question of like, Hey, what do you think happened here? How do we fix it? Like I'm, I'm sure that'll be a question that is asked of the next head coach. Yeah. And it's also a good point that Bucala brings up that, you know, you're only going to hire one of these guys. And if you're going to be interviewing them to be your head coach, you, you respect their hockey mind. It is a, it's probably a great opportunity for you to learn a lot about your team just viewed from a different lens, hearing how all these guys kind of talk about your group, not that they'd be kind of like reinventing the wheel in there or anything. It's like, yeah, we know all the problems with the Leafs, but I do think it'd be illuminating to hear it from Buruby, from McClellan, from Galant, whoever else they're interviewing. Okay. That marner trade. Yeah. It's jarring to see. Very. That many pieces go out the door and all three of them played in the postseason. I'm surprised to see Robertson and Lulligan included in that quite obviously. Yeah. And you get back a guy that averaged like over 21 minutes a game. Yeah. And he's only 25 in Mario for a row. Yeah. And apparently good. Yeah, well, sure. If he says so. Okay. And then another four prospect in the first round pick, but yeah, and I respect the hell out of Jason Booker for giving us something to talk about. Tell you what, that trade gets consummated. Yeah. Oh my God. Like, and I'm not saying that that's the wrong and that's might be the best you can do. And then it, the nine million dollars and frees up. Yep. That's the real thing. Right? Yeah. It'd be Mitch Marner, or sorry, it'd be that trade plus Chandler Stevenson plus Brandon Montour, whoever. Yeah. But I'm telling you like the day that that trade like that gets consummated to like be terrifying to go on Twitter that day. Yeah. Yeah. Unless you're Mitch Marner, though. Everybody be saying how good you are. That's the one day they'd be talking about how great you were, but he doesn't read any of that stuff. So you never see it. This is a topic for another day, but like, does Mario forever become the most popular or is it the Gabriel Moreno situation kind of? I think it's like adult and bar show thing for him. It's tough. Maybe one day we'll find out. Yeah. We'll see. We'll see. Long off season to come. All right, we'll be back tomorrow with another edition of the Fan Morning Show, Ben N.S. Brent Gunning sports at 5.9. Fan. Good morning. [MUSIC]
