(upbeat music) - Welcome to "Wallowing in the Shallows," the podcast that skirts the perilous drop off of a deep dive into television and movies. We are academic nerds aspiring to become TV and movie geeks. There are no spoiler cards in the shallows, so listen at your own risk. This week, join us for a while and a Buffy the Vampire Slayer, season two, rewatch. (upbeat music) - Hey, hello peeps. Welcome to "Wallowing in the Shallows," this is Tori. - And this is Rebecca. And today, we are talking about Buffy the Vampire Slayer, season two, episode 19. I only have eyes for you. - Shwap, shwap. (laughing) - Which, given, it was interesting because it a very important part of the show. They were playing that song again, which is perfect. I was like, "But then the shwap, shwap came in." And it's like, hmm, that sort of takes a bit away from the mood here. (laughing) - How so? It didn't for me. I'm like, wait a minute. How did it take away from the mood? - Well, I think it's when Buffy as James is getting ready to kill herself. - Mm. - And so it's kind of like, hmm, I don't know that shwap, shwap is appropriate. It's when she's about to end her life. But the song is so perfect, and it just happens to be part of the song. I don't know. I always think of that kind of diddy or scat or whatever it is being a little more light-hearted, but maybe that's just a connection in my brain that I have. - Yeah, I don't think the song is - Yeah. - Two, two, 50s. - Yeah, it's a poppy. - Yeah, and it's slow and yes. - I mean, it never really does pick up. - It's true. - So... - It wasn't major. This is not a criticism. It just struck me minorly during that scene. - Got it. - But I will say overall, I'll just open with, I really thought this was a good episode. I'm very interested in knowing where it shows up on the ranks, and I think it had a real, almost darker, horror-ish, but not terribly horror element to it. I mean, it really did remind me of the movie Poltergeist light, perhaps. - Hmm, interesting. - Yeah. - Interesting. Well, it didn't rank very high. It always comes in at 94. But I kind of understand that because I've never really liked this episode, but after watching last week's episode, - Yes. - Which was, you know, the derk kinder stockin. (laughing) And having like a different interpretation of that than I've ever had before, I was able to kind of use, actually some of the stuff from derk kinder stockin, which I know is the wrong name, but I still liked-- - Love it. - Stockin'. It made me kind of use this one differently. And so I was like, wow, this episode is a lot different than I've ever interpreted it before. And so I liked it way better. In fact, when I was doing some reading online, a lot of people were saying that. They're like, oh, I really liked this the first time I watched it. And then, you know, watching it several other times, suddenly the little light bulb goes off, and you're like, whoa, wait a minute. This is a lot deeper than it first appeared, at least for many of us, clearly. - Yeah. - I think you probably got it. - I think I did, and maybe last week did prep me a little bit for that to think about it a little more critically, but there was a lot I really liked. Sure, I have some little criticisms, but I really was into it, and I think there's a lot to say about it. - Yeah, I think so too. I did, again, I'm kind of digging these Apple TV summaries because Pan, they are short. - Perfect, lay it on me. - Yeah, so season two, episode 19s. Sunnydale High School is haunted by the ghosts of a former student and teacher who reenact their tragic romance through the bodies of the school's current inhabitants. That's it. - Perfect. - Yeah, it's nice and short. So this is another Marty Noxen episode, which has now given me even greater appreciation for the subtlety that she brought in with this. - Well, I don't even know that I'm thinking about it. It's not even really about that subtle. - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. - So, anyways, let's talk about it. - Okay, let's do. Now, I do have to say, one of my least favorite lines in the whole episode, you may be able to guess, happens very early on. - Sorry, I'm pretty much repressed, anything not related. - I wrote that down. I'm like, this is gonna come up. - They comment on it. - You knew it. - But I was like, I feel you, Buffy, I feel you. - Oh, Buffy. You know, they don't say history, they don't say English, it's always math. Sometimes the science gets thrown in. - Yeah, yeah. - Well, it's just one of those things that can just really make you feel stupid. It's like, I don't understand how these numbers work together. People have scarring experiences with math. There's no doubt about it, which as you know, as math teacher, I really appreciate. - Right. - I just don't love, you know, why did this, does this add? Does this add to Buffy's character that she makes this claim, or is it just a tired trope that's getting carted out yet again? - Probably the latter. (laughs) - It was just like a convenient way for her to explain why she had no idea who this guy was. - Making an excuse for not remembering Ben, which, okay, this was my first element. So first, I thought Ben was gonna get real creepy, right? I thought, oh, boy, stalker, no, Ben just shot his shot and then vanished into the background. What I will say, did you feel like Ben looked a bit like Angel's younger brother? Like, they shared kind of some real, I'm not saying a look alike, but the sort of tall, dark haired sort of pushed up in the front. (crickets chirping) I'm trying to put that together, but... - You didn't get any angel vibes from him. - I did not get angel vibes from him, but different interpretations, different strokes for different folks. - It then made me realize that Xander is also kind of tall and thin and dark haired. It's just kind of interesting that all of these three all share some very, I mean, really rough cut characteristics. But anyway, Ben doesn't end up dupe meaning much at all other than, okay, Buffy's still not ready to date and we got this Sadie Hawkins dance introduced. - Right, did you have Sadie Hawkins dances when you were in high school? - I did not, but I knew, oh wait, that's not necessarily true. I think we had a homecoming that was now that I think about it. - I think maybe we did. I was gonna try to get a hold of some of my high school friends on Facebook and say, "Hey, did you have Sadie Hawkins dances?" 'Cause I really don't remember. And I'm sure if we did, I never asked anybody because I was uber shy, so... - Yeah, no, this homecoming's really coming back to me now. (laughing) Yes, I don't think it was common and they really didn't play up the Sadie Hawkins theme too much 'cause it was just homecoming. But they called it Sadie Hawkins that the girls were supposed to ask the guys. - Interesting. - Yeah, I mean, we had to have had him. It was so close to the '50s when that was really kind of a big thing. I remember more sock hops, sock hops. I don't know. Putting Hawkins and socks together. I remember sock hops more than Sadie Hawkins dance, but I know I knew about them, so we had to have had one. - Now, I actually do not know the exact definition of a sock hop. Did you not wear shoes? - Well, if they didn't put the big tarp down over the gym, then no, we weren't allowed to wear shoes on the gym floor, because most people were wearing street shoes, right, and not rubber-soled shoes. - Sure. - So, I think with the sock hop, it was more of wearing like 1950 style saddle shoes with those little bobby socks. - Okay. - Okay. - And so, it was loosely, I think, geared towards girls with those shoes and stuff. Let's see what the Wikipedia has to say. The term came about because, ah, yep. Here we go, this makes sense. The term came about because the answers were required to move their hard-soled shoes to protect the varnish floor of the gymnasium. - Yup, yup, yup, yup, yup. - Yeah. - Isn't that interesting? Do you think it was a sock hop when it's a wonderful life when the gym floor then opened up into a pool? - I don't think so because they were all wearing street shoes. - They did have shoes on. - Okay. - Yeah, so I'm, yeah. Cool, cool, cool. - That just suddenly jumped into my head with them dancing on, but I believed to be a gym floor. And I'll tell you, our gym floor did not open up to a swimming pool. That's for Darchar. - Yeah, ours didn't either. That pool actually still exists at Beverly Hills High School. - Wait, that, oh, wow. - Yeah. - When, first when you said Beverly Hills High School, I thought you were talking about Buffy, but you're talking about the, it's a wonderful life movie. - Yeah, yeah. - Oh, wow. - Yeah. - That's wild. - Uh-huh, yeah. - It's kind of welcome. - Yeah, yeah, back to, I, sorry for the, total tangent and something that wasn't even a sock hop, but yes, back to this, so we've got this Sadie Hawkins premise, which it is perfect that that does kind of throw us back into a 50s feel because that becomes very important here to follow. - Absolutely. - And how many people need to die in this high school? (both laughing) - Well, you kind of got to wonder what the kill count was before Buffy arrived. - Well, clearly this was one. - Yeah, but this one doesn't seem to be vampire related. - No, no, that's true, but I don't even care if it's vampire related. This school is taxed. (both laughing) Vampires or no? - Yeah, I guess that hell mouth. - Speaking of. - Yeah. - I just have to say, the conspiracy goes up to at least the mayor. I mean, we really got more of a, you know, more cards shown by Snyder, the city council. They know it's a hell mouth. We knew Snyder and the police were kind of in on something like, what am I gonna say this time? But boy, it was made blatantly obvious in this, blatantly clear in this episode. - Yeah, yeah. So everybody's aware of the paranormal stuff, but again, just trying to sweep it into the carpet, so to speak. - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I was happy to see Principal Snyder, though. - Me too. I was happy to see him as well. And I first wrote down Principal Skinner. And then they said, "Sneider." And I was like, okay, yeah, no, this is Snyder, but I'm like, there is a Principal Skinner as well. And I looked it up and it's the Simpsons. - Oh, when you said Skinner, I immediately went to the X-Files. (upbeat music) - Oh, no, I meant specifically a Principal Skinner. - Oh. - And Bart's principal is Principal Skinner, so. - I'm not sure I've ever watched a full episode of the Simpsons. - Then you wouldn't be familiar with my skin reference. - No, I mean, I'm familiar with bits and pieces of it, of course, but yeah, I don't, I'm like, Principal Skinner is, okay, I don't know that. - Yeah, yeah, well, that's, I did get to the bottom of that. (laughing) - Interesting to hear the phrase you just went OJ on your girlfriend in light that OJ Simpson recently passed away. - Yeah, yeah. You don't hear that reference much anymore. - Oh, you don't. - That one did not, probably best. - H2L, and it was like, when was that? - '96, yes, I'm pretty sure it was '96. It was definitely between '92 and '96. I was in college. - Okay, okay. - Well, I was in college during the Bronco chase. I don't know that I still was when the verdict came down, but that's about right. - Oh, okay. - Right around there. - Okay, okay. We could go down another rabbit hole there, won't you? - Easily, did you recognize that school janitor guy? - I did, and I was trying to remember what, I know I've seen him on several things, but I just don't remember what I've seen him on. - Well, I didn't look at everything he's been in, but I know what's recent that I saw him in that you have not watched. It's the most recent season of True Detective, the one that Jodie Foster is in. - Oh. - He's a pretty important character in that. - Okay. - And so that's my very recent memory of John Hawks. - Okay, yeah, I don't remember him in character roles in many different shows that he showed up in. - Yes. - So I just don't, I didn't know he was in this show with Jodie Foster, that's on Hulu, right? - It's on Max, it's an HBO, it's an HBO joint, and it's quite good, I really enjoyed it. And he is not one of the main characters, but he's really up there. I'd say he's certainly not a bit role in, or a character role in this. He's got some real meat to him. - Okay. - And he does a good job with it. So it was interesting to see him, and oh my gosh, I was really thrown off the track multiple times, 'cause at first I thought, okay, this Ben guy is sus. And then I was like, okay, this janitor is real sus. No, I mean, he does end up killing somebody, but he's possessed or whatever. He is also not the big bad in this episode. - Right, right. I think that, well, but who is your interpretation of the big bad in this episode? - Well, that's actually a complicated question, because clearly James is the one who is the poltergeist and unrest and killed this woman in blah, blah, blah. But I am pretty angry at this teacher because she definitely, she gave him a book. I don't know if we wanna jump to this yet, but it's alluded to this Hemingway book that she gave him to read. And I'm pretty sure it was a farewell to arms, which is somewhat autobiographical about Hemingway falling for granted. She was only seven years older, but he was still a teenager and she was like 26, a nurse that he had when he was injured, as part being in the Red Cross or whatever. So I mean, she, I feel like, I mean, using today's terms, she groomed him. - No, I totally think that too. And you know, there's a couple of times where we hear a kind of whispered voice say, "I need you." And that's a female voice. And if you remember, there's that one scene, I think Buffy's out on the balcony or something, like where James shoots Miss Newman. - Yeah. - And he screams at her to get out. So I think that it's the teacher that's arranging all this stuff and not James, 'cause I think she is looking for forgiveness as well, like leading to his downfall. - Wow. - And, and you know, Buffy's really struggling with, you know, the fallout of her relationship with Angel. And so, you know, she feels guilty for Teresa, she feels guilty for Jenny, but she feels guilty, right, for turning Angel. - Mm-hmm. - And so I think this is more about the teacher. I think James is probably feeling like he's living his penance, and that's why he screams at Buffy to get out because he doesn't want, he doesn't feel like he needs forgiveness. I mean, everybody's looking for forgiveness here. - Right. - So I kind of think more of the teachers kind of arranging stuff. - That is fascinating. I had not gone there. I was thinking it was James, who was the one that was having the unrest, and he's the poltergeist, but I certainly did not think the teacher, Newman, you said? - Yeah. - Yes, Newman. I sure think that she held a lot of the responsibility. - Yeah. - And so I can buy into what you're saying and think that maybe she did recognize that and she's haunted, maybe he's not haunted. She's the one that is recognizing. It really was, I mean, you just, she clearly, you don't give a kid Lolita, you know? (both laughing) - Yeah. - And it's okay for, so I really had some strong feelings about her and did not have the take that Buffy did up. Oh, you know, she was totally innocent in all this. - Right, right, yeah. Well, I mean, I still think James was the poltergeist. - Okay. - Because again, I think he was trying to ensure that Grace didn't succeed, right? Because he didn't feel like he needed, or deserved forgiveness. And she was trying to orchestrate this thing with Angel and Buffy. Because they're the two that hear that I need you. - Wow. Wow, wow. - And so he was trying to stop the teacher's spirit from bringing everybody, bringing them together. - Ah, that's my interpretation. - Why so were the other two like failed attempts of trying to, because we have the unsuccessful, we have the one where Buffy intervenes, we have the one where the teacher gets killed and obviously the resolution doesn't happen. And then we have the genius bit of shooting a vampire who's gonna survive. - Right. Yeah, no, I think that's exactly it. - Okay. - Two failed attempts, and my big question was like, why now? - Yes. - What, I mean, like, is this first Sadie Hawkins dance that the school's had since then? - Right. - Right. - Oh, or is it maybe it's out of the, go ahead. - I just, or is it Buffy's current feelings that are in the high school that are resonating with them? - Yeah, yeah. That could be, yeah. Definitely because she's feeling guilt for being the downfall of Angel and turning them back into Angelus and... - And I really, I loved the gender reversal. I loved that they did that. I just really thought that whole piece was really well done and how well it mirrored. - I just, I was all in. I was really all in and there was some creepy stuff going down, okay, the wasps looked a little unreal, you know, whatever. - Yeah. - That's the technology of the 90s. I'm not going to begrudge them too much. I was certain that Cordelia was gonna start peeling off her face like in Poltergeist. - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - This is a little too much Poltergeist, but it really had some kind of disturbing, scary stuff. I don't really know where the snakes came from. I, there were a couple of things that I was like, how does this fit with everything that's going on? But I guess maybe it's just Poltergeisty. - Yes. I kind of forgotten about that scene and I was, I still get the heebie-jeebies when I think about that scene and cafeteria. I'm like, "Ugh!" - Yes. - I think that was-- - Well, finally, you know, one of the few times where we see the Sunnydale students have an appropriate reaction. Let's scream and run away. - You're right. That wasn't a total, not a, oh yeah. - Yeah. - There are some snakes. They were freaking out. - Yeah. Yeah, I'm tall, yeah, heebie-jeebies. I have to drink wine on that one. - Nice. Take a, take a nice, take a nice draft. - Okay, yeah, yeah. But somebody after you mentioned Poltergeist here, I was remembering somebody else I read, mentioned that scene with Cordelia as being reminiscent of Poltergeist as well. I didn't catch it, but yeah, now that everybody mentions it, it's like, "Oh, yeah." - Yes. - It is, it is. - And Poltergeist definitely came out before Buffy, so-- - Oh, yeah. - Yeah, it could definitely have, and it's been a long time since I've seen that, but it could have been some nods. I simply cannot completely jump over Principal Snyder saying pathetic little no life vegan about the guy who was in front of the snack machine. And it made me think to myself, okay, I was aware of vegetarianism, fairly young. When was the first time I encountered vegan? - I feel like it had to have been in graduate school, but I'm not positive about that. I definitely knew about vegetarians well before vegans. And in fact, there was a considerable amount of time when I thought vegan just was sort of like a nickname for vegetarians. - Hmm, hmm. I know it wasn't until I got to Columbus. I mean, I heard of vegetarians, yeah. But, you know, coming from the land of meat and potatoes. - Oh my gosh, yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Anyway, it was probably browned about this time, late 90s that I found out what a vegan was. - Yeah. - That meant. - Yeah, did you think it's weird? I'm sorry, just looking at a note that popped up to me from my notes. (laughs) - Yes, did you think it was weird that they had, still had that picture of James in the yearbook? - Oh my gosh. - That is a really good point, and less perhaps it was a yearbook from like the year before it happened or something. - That could be. - You know, that that one had already been published. - Yeah, maybe. - But, oh my gosh, you're absolutely right. Some guys shot a teacher. - Mm-hmm. - They probably wouldn't be featuring him as an honor roll student. - Yeah, on a full page, all by himself. - Yeah. - Yeah. - So. - Oh my gosh. - Now that you say it, yes, that would be very strange. - I mean, I'm trying to remember the page of the yearbook with Ms. Newman's picture on it, and I'm trying to remember if it was an in-memorium page. 'Cause if it is, then it doesn't make, then it's clear, right, the yearbook wasn't published until after she died. Now, I might have to go back and look. Maybe I'll do that. - Maybe I'll have a very interesting question. - Maybe I'll do that after we get done recording and drop a little note in for the listeners. Yes. - We interrupt this program to bring you a special report. - Hey, everyone, this is Tori, interrupting our regularly scheduled program to bring you up to date. Yes, at 18 minutes and 34 seconds into the program. We see Buffy looking at the yearbook, and there is an in-memorium page for the teacher, and then several pages back, we see a picture of the kid whose name I just forgot, and he is highlighted for being on the honor roll. Go figure. - Yes, that is really interesting. And so it is also interesting that I'm assuming it's James, is communicating with Buffy here clearly wants her to know. So it's not to be connected with Buffy, this resurgence. Because we have the first reenactment that Buffy thwarts, but then James is like directly connecting with Buffy here in a non-violent way of, I'm gonna almost say a cry for help. - I'm trying to- - What scene are you talking about? - With the yearbook. Just that the yearbook drops out. It's not violent, it's not super scary, but it's like a, hey, see me or something. - I think that's the teacher. - Oh, you think it's the teacher? Oh my gosh, lay in the breadcrumbs. - Yeah, and again, just because for me, it stopped making sense, 'cause I thought it was all James. But then I was like, well, that I need you voices, clearly female, and if James wanted her help, why would he have rushed up to her and screamed at her to get out? - Well, so I don't know. - That's a good question. - You're asking the hard-hitting questions here. Which is good. - No, I didn't do a super deep dive, but I found nobody else interpreting at this point. So maybe I'm way off. - Well, I- - I even tried to see if Marty Knox and had written anything about it, but again, I didn't spend a lot of time looking, and I didn't find anything. - I would be interested in how many people think of the teacher as completely innocent in all this, if it's just the fact that we teach that makes us like, no, no, no, no. That's a lot of power that that teacher has, and she did not use her power for good, and she got herself into a heck of a mess. - Yeah, no, I did find stuff about that. I mean, I was reading this one whole Reddit thread where they were all going off about how that's really glossed over in the episode, and that if it had been flipped, right? If it had been a male teacher and a female student, they would have never been able to get away with it, and that's probably why they flipped it. - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. - So, yeah, I know lots of people picked up on that. - Okay, well, I'm glad to hear that because it should not be discounted. - Yeah, and some people were even kind of angry that Buffy was trying to portray the teacher as somewhat innocent, right? Like, she's the big victim here, and so one poster said, well, she's so caught up in a guilt right now. - Yes. - That that's how she would interpret it, so. - Yes, I have to agree with that, because even Cordelia's like, you know, self-identify much, so clearly Buffy is seeing herself and Angel in this, and so she's like, no. - Right. - The woman is completely innocent here. It was all the guy, just the same way she kind of feels, but to your point, yet underneath she really does feel guilty, even though she shouldn't feel guilty for turning Angel. - Right. - And her role in that. - Right, yeah, 'cause it's not, I guess, can you still be guilty just because you were ignorant of something? - Well, ignorance is not a selfish, not a defense by Cord, just 'cause you didn't know the law. You're still guilty, but that's more of a legal interpretation. - Right, right. - You're talking about moral, morally, right? - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. - Yeah. - It's an interesting, well, I mean, I don't see how she just had sex with the man she loved. - Mm-hmm. - Right, well, he is a vampire. There is something about should she have even been in this relationship? (laughs) - Right, right. Well, what good is gonna come out of this? - Right, which is exactly parallel between James and Ms. Newman's relationship. She was older, she should have known better. - Mm-hmm. - Oh, that's fascinating. No, I think there's a lot of depth in this episode. - Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't think I would have gotten any of that if I hadn't redone from a critical thing that whole "Dr. Fender Stalking" episode. For some reason, well, of course, you know, 'cause we were talking about Buffy's guilt with that and everything, and here we kind of really start to see it still, well, it really start to see it. It's still really manifesting itself in Buffy's life. - And so much so. Again, I think those guilty feelings are so powerful that it, maybe this poltergeist has been knocking over books and whatever for decades and nobody's noticed, but like it gave a vehicle of channeling to these feelings, right? - Right, right. - I do not think this would have come back if Buffy had not been there. Not to lay even more guilt on Buffy with this teacher who ended up dying, but I do think her guilt, her feelings are the conduit that created this whole, this whole situation. - Yeah, I think you might be right with that. - Yeah, I think Ms. Newman was trying to get forgiveness and just forgiveness and peace to James, and I think Buffy is probably seeking forgiveness from Angel for turning him into Angeles again, even though it's not her fault. Again, as we know, Buffy takes on all that responsibility for everybody in Sunnydale, right? I think that happens in her fault 'cause she wasn't there and she didn't save them. - Yeah. - Which we will get there, but how interesting Angelus's visceral response to either this possession or I almost feel like the poltergeist suppressed some of Angelus and some of Angel came out. I do think that some of that was Angel verbalizing how he felt and that is why Angelus felt so, so disgusted. - Oh, yeah, that's good. I like that, I like that. - I just loved that and in his reaction, I mean, just like scouring himself. And he uses the term violated, which is so rich given what he's done to the human angel, right? So just, yeah, just some interesting, interesting stuff. Well, speaking of teachers, Willow seems to be doing a fabulous job, she is just the new computer science teacher. There's all there is to it. Sunnydale is totally fine with this. - That's so weird. - Now, if Willow sleeps with one of her students, now there we have a pickle because she shouldn't be in the role anyway. She is just another high school student. Something tells me we aren't gonna encounter that. - It would kind of go against Willow's character. - Exactly. - Yeah, she was so cute when she was so jazz that she was able to make the class laugh. - Yes, she, and they really seemed, I mean, I think the class is digger. They bought in. - Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, I'm always really happy when I can make my students laugh. I'm like, yes, although sometimes, you know, I've had to adjust my jokes. - Oh, absolutely, no. - So I can't use my cement pond to joke anymore. People just stare at me like, what? I'm like, hello Beverly Hillbillies. - Crickets. - I must admit, I must admit, I would not have gotten that. I wouldn't see that. - Oh well. - I never watched Beverly Hillbillies. - Really? - I'm familiar that there's an old granny and a Uncle Jeb or some, some, anyway, but I don't know that I've ever seen an episode. - Wow. - Yeah. - Just ride a run. - Well, it was available. It just isn't when I gravitated toward. - Got it. - Was it black and white? - I believe it started out in black and white. - Okay. - And then when did it color? - I do think I had sort of a negative reaction to black and white when I was a kid. It was like all of my shows were in color. So black and white was old, black and white was old television. So it took me a while to appreciate that. - Got it. - Did you recognize the actor who played James? - I did, I did. He was Betty's boyfriend in "Ugly Betty." - Okay. - And so he wasn't he in one of those superhero television shows, getting him mixed up with some, I'm getting him mixed up with somebody else. - No, he was definitely, I think in some Superman related or something like that. I haven't seen that and I haven't seen "Ugly Betty." I recognized him from two other things. - Oh, would you remember or recognize him from? - He was recently in a season of "Lincoln Lawyer." He's not in the main cast, but he was a very significant role in one of the seasons. And where I first encountered him, I had to do a deep dive to find this. - He was in a mini series, I think it was, or a television show called "Harper's Island." - I haven't heard of it. - And it's like, it was actually really pretty good. It was this, it kind of reminds me of, and then there were none, this party goes to an island for a wedding and people start to die. People start to get killed. - Oh. - And he is in that show as the groom of the couple who's getting married. So yeah, "Harper's Island." If any of that sounds interesting to anybody listening, you might give it a check, I did really kind of enjoy it. And again, I like Agatha Christie's "And Then There Were None," or I don't know if that is the current title it has. It's had like three different names. The first two were inappropriate. But this one, I think "And Then There Were None," nobody that there's no issue with. But yeah, I liked that "Harper's Island" show. - Oh, I haven't seen, I've never even heard of it actually. - I don't know how I came across it. - I think I'm just looking up his television roles and he was in like eight episodes of "Felicity." - Oh my gosh, he must have been young then. - Yeah, well, I'll definitely be seeing him then because I'm actually re-watching "Felicity" right now. - You know, I've never watched it. - Really? - No, I haven't. - I got it on desk if you wanna watch it. - Well, I'll have to think about that. Let us know, people, if you'd like us to do tape type of "Felicity." - Well, I'm actually listening to a podcast and it's called "Dear Felicity" because in Felicity, like particularly in the first season, like every episode, she's making these tapes to send to her friend and they always start out, "Dear Sally." - Okay, well, back to Buffy. (laughing) - There's super Gorm gets them off on a tangent. - Yes, definitely. So that's where I knew him from. And immediately I was like, okay, this teacher is into it. And then when she's like this Hemingway book and so that's when I dug that up. And I was like, oh my gosh, this woman is absolutely exerting her influence to get this young man. And so... - Bad teacher. - Yes, bad teacher is right. And I think you're right. I think the fact that it's a woman, I'm gonna use the word makes it more palatable. - Yeah, but a critical eyes still sees it for what it is. Doesn't matter the gender. This is a power, this is an abuse of power. This is an abuse of power here. - 100%. - 100%. - Oh yeah, I get, again, as teachers, of course we have a strong negative response to that. So I am upset just because of how they downplay that in this episode. - Yes. - And because it would be a totally, people would have been like losing their shit if it had been a male teacher. - Well, then we have some real weird shit going down. And so this arm that grabs Xander, like not quite all of these things made sense to me where they're trying to grab Buffy. And does Xander usually have a doll hanging by its neck in his locker room? - That's what I wrote down too. - That was normal that the arm was gone, but the doll hanging by its neck was totally- - And he had pins in it. And I'm like, what the hell? Was somebody doing that to target Xander? 'Cause that's a little bit, you know? - Yeah. - To pop it, but the pins in it. And I'm like, that's, yeah, why does Xander have that in his locker? - Because they didn't comment on that. They just commented about the arm suddenly they're then gone. - Yeah, they do like Xander's line in this scene, you know, but if he says something weird's going on and Xander says something weird is going on. Isn't that our school motto? - I did love that. I didn't write it down, but I'm glad you did. - And then this is another example of people underwhelming reactions because there's all these students standing around and you don't hear anybody yell. Like, holy shit, what is that? - A zombie arm comes out of this locker and is man-handling Xander. - Yeah. Did you notice the one girl in the background? She was in, bewitched, bothered and bewildered. - Oh. - Do you remember the, there were two girls, it's the hallway scene. And one has really long, straight hair, and the other one's got some part of her hair pulled back in a ponytail, but just like the top part, not the whole hair, and she's got bangs and she winks at Xander. - Oh, I certainly remember the episode and that everybody's after Xander, but I can't remember that girl. - Well, she's in this episode too. She's in the background of that scene. Yeah, yeah. But yes, I caught that too. I'm like, that's weird, weird, weird, weird things. Giles, ooh, sounds like paranormal phenomenon. (laughing) And we get a nice little exposition from Giles about poltergeists and Buffy. So it's a normal teenager, only dead. I'm like, okay, buffet. - Yeah. - And then the Dr. Laura reference, did you ever listen to Dr. Laura? - I didn't, but isn't she still around? - Is she? - I think she has, I think she has a show on Sirius FM. - Oh my gosh. Wow, okay, I never listened to her. Of course, what are those things that you can't help hearing about? - I have a friend who listens to her regularly. I'm just gonna check that. I'm just gonna check my facts here. But yeah. - Isn't she kind of, she's not really a psychiatrist, is she? - I don't know what she is. (laughing) I just see, she is self-described as, Dr. Laura is a talk radio and podcast host, offering no nonsense advice infused with a strong sense of ethics, accountability and personal responsibility. And she is her daily on Sirius FM. - Hmm. Well, I was wondering if she was the inspiration for, it's season two of the West Wing. Did you watch the West Wing? - I did, but I'm not going to remember it with that granularity. - I love that series so much. - But anyway. - It's a great series. - Yeah. So they're in this episode, they're having this big kind of gathering of journalists. - Okay. - And there's this one woman that Jed Bartlett goes up against, right? And she, like when he walks into the room, everybody gets up except her. And he like really kind of goes after her and he's like, "Oh, aren't you, Dr. So-and-so who gives us advice blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And she's like, "Well, you know, I don't say that. The Bible says that." And yada, yada, yada. And he just eviscerates her. It is so awesome. - Well, sounds quite possible. - And I was wondering if she was the inspiration for that. Now, of course, that makes me want to go to a whole deep West Wing vibe. Or diet. - Great show. - Yeah. - Great show. - One of my all time favorite television shows. - Okay. - But back, okay, so the creepy doll Poldricko slashes out. And so then now, the janitor who I thought was Suss, ends up, he's probably going to spend the last of his life in prison. I mean, this really stinks for this guy. - Yep, yep, sure does. - And the woman who died of course. - Yeah, it's really bad for her. Oh, and this is it. Giles hears the voice that says, "I need you." And he thinks it's Jenny. - Yes, which I loved later, Willow was like Jenny could never been this mean, but Giles has a moment as a football player with tackling the janitor here. That was very impressive. - Go Giles, go Giles. Yeah, it's sad, right? He's just so deep in his grief for the loss of Jenny. He just so wants to be able to have that last kind of connection with her. - Yeah. - And totally misinterprets. But yeah, I loved it when Willow's like, Jenny could never be this mean, and he's like, no. - And he knows, yeah. - And he's so condescending to the scoops. - Oh, yeah. - In this episode. - So. - It's a normally questioned authority, but when I'm clearly right. - And you're clearly wrong, yeah. I was like, "Dang, dude." And of course, we get a little more insight 'cause at some point in one of these scenes with Giles in the scoops, Buffy's like, "Just a little more fallout from my love life." - Yeah. - So. - So they have to leave their usual meeting spot, the library, because Giles is not having it. And so they go to their new secondary spot, Willow's Classroom. (laughing) - I actually didn't even recognize that as Willow's Classroom, but that doesn't make sense, though. - Yep, they've got another private spot to meet. Not only the library, but Willow's Classroom. - Yeah, I don't think in the late 1990s, so she would have been able to find that newspaper article so quickly 'cause it takes a long time to be able to find articles that quickly online. - No way. She has magical, prescient internet powers that are so good. The internet isn't even good enough to do them yet. (laughing) It won't be long before they will, but at this point, no way. - Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna ask what is probably a stupid question. Did you get the Shakespeare reference in this episode? - Oh my gosh. I didn't think about Shakespeare once in this episode. - Zander. - The quality of mercy was not Buffy. - Oh, okay, isn't strange. Yeah, okay, I didn't write it down, but I do know exactly what you're talking about. And he sort of, he repurposes it slightly, right? - Correct. - Yeah, the quality of mercy is, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, merchant of Venice. - Okay, okay. - I didn't catch it. - Nicely done. - I found that through my post episode research. I was like, "Oh." But I think I've only seen the merchant of Venice once, so I'm giving myself a little slap there. - Absolutely, well, I shouldn't give myself any slack, but I'm still going to. But yes, yes, Shylock, yeah, yeah. - Oh, wow, even though he said it, wow, wow, wow, okay. - Wow, now, give me a moment here. Shylock is just a major character in the merchant of Venice. - Oh, okay. - But he actually say it, or was it? Mm, oh my gosh, okay, now I got to find out. I did know the correct ending. Quality of mercy is not strange. Okay, that's what I thought. It's actually given by Portia, kind of the lawyer in merchant of Venice who is a woman, Jesus man. - Okay, okay, okay. - I'll tell you, that play has some very troubling elements. - Again, I've always seen it once, so. - Well, Shylock is Jewish. - Mm-hmm. - And it is, it, some, yeah. - No race is over to them there. - Right, exactly, exactly. - Did you see it? - Well, we're kind of on this. - Got some problematic. - Well, we're kind of on this topic. Did you think it was odd or did anything strike you when they have Willow say the only solution is the final solution? - What the heck, man? - Yeah, it's when they're at Buffy's house and it's Xander and Willow and of course Buffy. And I think Jows is there too. - I know exactly what you're talking about. - Yeah. I was like, wow, why do you get that line to Willow? - Mm-hmm. - When she comes up with the manga's tripod, so, I didn't notice it. There clearly is and gives everybody a scapular, you know? I mean, she's really all over it. - And I didn't get that either. I'm like, I know I've read quite a bit about Wiccan mechanism and so forth. And I was like, I don't think I've ever heard a protective thing like that called a scapula. - Okay, it's not scapula. It's scapular. - Scapular. - Uh-huh. I rewound it. I think they're saying scapula the whole time. But the little charm, which is often just, is a scapular. - Scapular, oh, well, that makes more sense. - Yes, yes. Which is so named, 'cause I was like scapula. That's a bow. - Yeah. - It's so named because kind of it how it hangs over the shoulders. - Ah, okay. - Well, even my captions. - Yeah. - Had a scapula. - It's gotta be scapular. That has to be what they're referring to. - Yeah, yes. - Because when, what does Xander confuse it as? When, instead of scapula. Anyway, it, well, I could be wrong, but I think that's what it's meant to be. - No, I think you're right. - Yeah, anyway, they've all got their sulfur around their necks. And yeah, creepiness ensues, including Willow, caught in the quicksand that is the floor on the landing. - Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think goodness, Giles heard her screaming. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And it's quite dramatic, right? That conveniently all the school doors were open so they could all slam shut. - Yeah, but I'll just come walking in. I'm like, what are all the school doors open? Is it just because of the snakes? Or are they thinking all the snakes will escape on their own then? - I was like, okay. I hope you're okay. What do you think of the new layer for the vampire years? - It felt very interview with a vampire to me. - Yeah. - I was really seeing like Tom Cruise, Brad Pitt. You know, I was like, okay, wow. That's what it really felt like. - And how convenient that this very European Dracula looking castle happens to be available for immediate movement. - Fantastic. - Yeah. - Including garden with blooming Jasmine or whatever. - Man, Drew has some real connection. She's got some real psychic powers. She always knows when something's going down. - Yep. - Yep. - And probably another piece of why I like this episode so much, I'm just have to throw this in right now. Is at the end, I expect baby Spike is back. He's gonna save it for just the right moment. But thank goodness, I'm so sick of this angel Drew crap. - Oh yeah, it was bad in this episode too. - Real bad. And she's complicit. - Mm-hmm, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, when I was watching that scene, I was like, oh, Rebecca's gonna be happy. - Oh, so happy, so, so happy. - Yeah. Let's see, what else? Oh, you know, I noticed something kind of interesting. And, you know, we haven't done trivia in a while. - Oh, I know. - We didn't do it last, well, we didn't do it last episode, but in that scene where Willow is getting sucked under the vortex and Giles saves her and everything, there's a poster on the wall in the background? Do you know what it says on it? - Oh, I don't, I kept an eye on several posters, but that I was just totally entranced with a quicksand floor. - It says panic. - Oh my gosh, wow. - Yeah, good catch. - Giles, I think, might have one of the best lines in this episode. - Which one? - I forgive as an act of compassion, Buffy. It's, it's not done because people deserve it. It's done because they need it. - Yeah, well done Giles. - Yeah, well done Giles. - Mm-hmm. - And I think, and the guy from Myth-A-Man 4, Mark Field mentions, and it's in the same scene, right? 'Cause Buffy goes off on this big tirade, and then, you know, she's like, it's just something he's gonna have to live with speaking about James, and Cordillo is like, okay, over-identify much. And before she says that, Xander says, he can't live with it with it, buff. He's dead. - He's dead, yeah. - And the double meaning with both James and Angel being dead. - Yep. - Was, I thought pretty striking. - Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I just have such a better appreciation for this episode now. - Yeah. - Really, like, I seriously, it's always been way down there for me, 'cause I didn't understand. - It didn't make sense to me. I mean, I mean, I understood that, of course, James and the teacher were a stand-in for Angel, and Buffy, but I didn't really understand the depth of it. I never took the time to think about it. - Mm-hmm. - No. - As aforementioned, this one's up there for me. I mean, you know, it's not gonna be the favorite, but it, higher than they have it. - Yeah, yeah. I have to think about it, I don't know. I don't know where I'm gonna put it. I don't know, I have to think about it, but, and I do have to say, in the scene between Angel and Buffy in the school, and Dorianna's turns on a dime, and he goes from Angela's to back to kind of good Angel. I mean, and it's just so fast and so smooth. You're almost just like, "Whoa, that transition." It's just, boom. - And his transition back as well, right? - Yeah, and it's right back to you. He really plays the two personalities, right, in one person very well. Yeah, that was a very powerful scene. And again, I like gender roles getting reversed anyway. I love when performances do that. That's a big thing in Shakespeare right now, is people having women play, and non-binary, and all of this. I love it. I think it's such an amazing element, and it helps you look at things in so many new ways. And I just really thought that that was great, that they did that here. Now, of course, they needed the undead person shot, so. - Right, right. - They were a practical component. But it just, I don't know, there was a powerful piece there with that switch, I think. - Agreed, agreed. And I thought it was really poignant at the end. - And they both did a great job. - They did a great job. You know, when Buffy and Giles are talking and, you know, Buffy's saying she doesn't understand how Grace could forgive James. And Giles says, "Does that matter?" Because I think what she's probably really asking is, you know, how could Angel ever forgive me? - Oh, Buffy. - Yeah. - Girl takes a lot on her shoulders. - She really does. She takes a lot more, she is the most responsibility taken, taking teenager either, I ever did to see. - Yes, yes. - Yeah, much better episode than I, 'cause actually, you know, even when I popped it in to watch it, I was not looking forward to it. I'm like, "Oh, I gotta watch this episode again." And then I'm like, "Wow, I have totally underappreciated this episode for decades." - I mean, I knew Angel was gonna survive the shot, but I still thought it was a very clever device, even though because they can't have the resolution without the person who's died returning to the conversation. - Yes. - And so it was just, I don't know, it was just clever. Hats off, it was just clever to do it this way. - It was smart. - Yes, yes. - Well, that's all I have to say about it. - Me too, close spike. - Yeah. (laughs) Next week, well, you know, I'm kind of interested to see if I garner more on a next week's episode, which is called Go Fish, a bit of a monster of the week. - Oh, okay. - But now I'm curious, I'm like, I'm gonna have to try to go into it with a little bit of a more open mind. - Ice. - And then I think we're at episodes 21 and 22, which we'll do together. - Okay, okay. - So, yeah, so I guess it's all that's left to do is say bye. - Thanks for listening, everybody. (upbeat music) - Wallowing in the shallows is created and produced by the both of us, edited by Mo. The soundtrack for the Wallowing in the Shallows, Buffy the Vampire Slayer season two re-watch is Apache Rock Instrumental by SoundItalia, available on gemento.com. You can send us feedback at witstvpod@gmail.com. That's W-I-T-S-T-V-P-O-D@gmail.com. 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