What The Ale?
Keg #8: Byberry State Hospital
ghosts, cryptids, murder, conspiracies, beer, what? The ale. Hello friends. Hello. Welcome to the May Cag. I'm Alanna Ray. And I'm Mama J. Um, and before we get into our topic this week, Mama, what are you drinking? Well, it's morning here for me. So I'm having a delightful ice hazelnut latte. Delicious. We love it. It's still a brew. Yeah, and it is a brew. And I was at a soccer game last night and I didn't get home until like after midnight and get back to bed until like after one in the morning. So yeah, I'm definitely needing coffee this morning. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I am. I empathize for sure. Yeah, what about you? Well, I am still on my morning coffee, but last night I had a new beer I had never had before and it's called a Wreck League, um, like, you know, like Wreck League soccer, um, but it's harpoon which is like a big beer over here. It's they're like light IPA, um, so not as strong, not as heavy, not as like in your gut. Um, but really good. So very cool. Yeah. Any what the old moments this week? Um, you know, I just hate the way our mind works because I had a family member take a fall yesterday and this morning I woke up just like like flashbacks like I keep seeing it happen. And I wish that our mind wouldn't do that where it shows us like these horrible like visuals over and over again. Yeah. Yeah, I'm dealing with that this morning and it just sucks. Yeah, definitely sucks and sad to hear sad to hear that's going on over there and sending lots of love. Hopefully I can have some good memories today. Yeah, get some rest and whatever, but yeah, I just wish our mind wouldn't do that to us. You know, it's like you wake up and you're just you wake up seeing something. Yeah, yeah, our mind is crazy. I'm like, aren't you supposed to be protecting me from that mind? Why are you keep showing me? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. What about you? Um, let's see. I So I for those of you who don't know, um, my partner is a massive gamer. And so while we're kind of operating long distance right now, we decided to um, start playing games together and because I don't have a gaming PC, I have to like stream it from like a computer in San Diego and then it sends me like the screen share of the screen so I can use it. It's very high tech and weird, but my For three days now we have been trying to play our game because we're both really into it and um Unfortunately, something is wrong with the actual computer and not my computer like I tried restarting my computer doing everything and everything says It's working. But like the computer on the other end of the world Isn't working. So I have like emailed them, but I don't know when I'll get a response And so that kind of sex because like that was our date night plan yesterday was we were gonna game and we didn't get to do that. So I Did you get some good plans with some friends this weekend? I do. Yes. I'm gonna watch drag race with my friends and drink lots of Prosecco and I'm excited That sounds awesome Yeah Oh, we have a friend that's retiring from derby today gonna have their last ballot. So we're the fam is gonna go see her Play her last derby match. I did see something about that on social media and then it was immediately sad. I couldn't go Yeah, so we're gonna do that today. So that'll be really fun to support her and You know, she's been playing for many years and you know, just feels like it's time to let it go, but Um, yeah, I know that she's gonna have a lot of support everything. So Yeah, I wish you were here for it That'd be amazing. We'll give them lots of love for me. Okay Um, but I guess anyway, do we want to get into our topic? Sure so, um, we decided to cover a Really well-known back in the day a hospital mental hospital Um, and it had some ghosty elements, which you know, we'll talk more about that at the end Um, but it is bivariate mental hospital and it was a state hospital in philadelphia um And it it was originally designed it was like city funded because the main Um, hospital that was like, um, you know, they has like a lot of you know People that were some people that were just homeless and had nowhere to go And then they had the other side that was called the insane department Um, and this was an institution called blockley in west philadelphia Okay, um, but because there was so much overcrowding They the city decided they needed to do like a sendee city funded inmate run farm Just to have somewhere for people to go that needed to get off the streets and everything What does inmate run mean? It means they took people that were staying at blockley And they put them on this farm and had them run the farm That sounds like not a good idea Well, so originally it was run by six inmates that were suffering from consumption So they were not on the insane part of the you know, the hospital Gotcha But you know within three years it grew to be over 800 acres And there were 15 colony houses. They called them that were like pretty much like dorms um And so, you know, the first patient that was admitted Was a man named william william mclam and he was admitted for alcoholism but So, you know, so it was not just for people that were insane, you know It was people that just you know dealing with consumption people that were Um dealing with alcoholism people that just didn't have a place to go um So and so it was originally started in 1911, but by 1914 it held 2267 residents And so at that time it was already had become pennsylvania's largest of all of their 21 county mental institutions And it was also larger than seven out of its eight state hospitals Wow, okay So it's a big one And then by 1934 there was a national survey of institutional care of mentally ill And they reported that vibrate had over 20 or i'm sorry 4500 inmates But its rated capacity was only 2500 Oof, okay It was over capacity by 2000 That's too many people Yeah So obviously by you know by mid 30s, it was like massively overcrowded and was in disrepair And they had budget issues. So many of the patients were unclothed Oh wow, okay So you just had all of these patients wandering around pretty much naked or like in underwear Things like that because they didn't have enough clothing for all of them And then they were so underfunded and overcrowded that they couldn't find staff to work there So what do you think they did since they couldn't find staff that would work there? I'm going to say That they took people out of the other side of the asylum and kept it super super it may run Yeah, so it ended up being basically staffed by convicted criminals Oh wow, okay And alcoholics who were former vibrate patients Okay I mean I would hope that the alcoholics are in recovery and doing great, but the former Like criminal thing seems a little concerning to me. Yeah So, I mean they just couldn't afford reasonable wages and You know that would like attract someone who maybe couldn't find better options They just couldn't nobody would take the job So they couldn't hire anybody and because they were so understaffed the petty criminals were offered um To assign You know that they were assigned to work there in lieu of serving jail time So, I mean very vulnerable patients because again there were some people that were You know Like insane and needed a lot of care But they were hands of these convicted criminals that were just trying to get out of their jail sentence Right that seems really unethical For sure And then in the 1940s a reporter snuck in posing as an attendant And um and I want to stress like people were able to come in and do things like that because they were still understaffed that It was easy to sneak in you know, you could you know, nobody really knew anybody was they were you know, it was kind of like um You know because they were so spread so thin, you know, it was like you wouldn't notice somebody coming in because you're busy dealing with whatever you're dealing with But this reporter snuck in and he was able to get some photos and of course he published them So that started some public outrage And then this happened again with a different reporter in 1945 Okay, and that really sparked a national uproar because the conditions were so barbaric um Now in 1942 there were plans made to build um A new like rec center kind of vibe and it would have a gym, a bowling alley, basketball courts, a library and a pool and spa Um But you know, it doesn't sound like that ever happened, but that's what they said they were going to do to help make it nicer Um And then during world war two there was a another shortage of staff because so many men were off at war that they developed a civilian public service unit And um, these were people who were conscientious objectors who did not support the war effort So they were brought here instead of going to war Okay, interesting Yeah, and 3000 of these objectors were spread to work in many of the different mental institutions throughout uh, pennsylvania And you know because this was just they were um, you know performing this as alternative work instead of going to war um, you know, they I mean they were against the war effort, you know for all kinds of um You know reasons and then they come into this place where It's just neglectful and you know, not great. So a lot of them also Started photographing what they were seeing Right. Yeah, it lacked and brutality and they were just shocked by it and so um you know, they started like reaching out to city and state officials and then There were novels and films that came out Uh, one of them was the snake pit and then photos came out in national magazine's like life and pm And what reached broader public, you know, which um, you know, really I mean people were just shocked by the basic living conditions in the state hospital and that it was so poor And it was rated as one of the worst in pennsylvania Oh, wow. Okay. So they're not even It's it's just it's really bad and people knew it was really bad and are still Operate. Okay. Yeah, so we're gonna get more into that and then there was one um One of the photos The person who took it described that the conditions were very much like a concentration camp You know, people didn't have enough food people didn't have clothing people were being abused And the photos that went into life magazine. I mean, really these people look like they were starving Right, and so that was in 1945 and Eleanor rosvelte saw the pictures Um before they were published and she couldn't believe that the pictures were taken in such a progressive city like philadelphia So she wanted to be a part of the reform efforts But by 1947 the institution held 6100 patients with an average yearly cost of 346 per patient And again, they're only supposed to have 2500 So and you said only 300 whatever per patient per year like that Yikes, okay again, not a lot of food not a lot of clothing definitely not a lot of medical care anything like that um And then there was um there was a journalist and reformer named albert q douich And he wrote a book in 1948 the shame of the states And he described by berry as philadelphia's bedlam Which is you know and a notorious london um home for the mad they call it And um, he also said that the conditions were like not the concentration camps So, um, you know another person that made that comparison Wow, okay, so this is yeah Like I said, it's just it's all bad news Yeah, so now we're going to get into what exactly people were seeing so again the facility met was meant for um Well, I had different accounts 2100 or 2500 depending on which article I read But at its worst it had 6500 so Over capacity by 4000 people which is just insane. Yeah, that's a lot The staff ratio was one staff to every 144 patients That's too many The vice so they had like a violent building and that building had one to four attendance for 350 patients Okay That's not good either Yeah, well, and I would not want to work in there if you have violent people in there and there's only four of you No Yeah, and then they had a building known as the incontinence word. Oh, wow. Okay. And that had three staff for 350 patients Mm-hmm The woman's word had one attendant for 250 patients Okay, and then the attendants they got room and board laundry and two dollars and 50 cents per month as their wages By 1970 there were at least 57 deaths that were solely due to neglect Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, that's not good And then they did have a children's ward, but because they didn't have enough staff They had adult patients supervised the children's ward No So as you can imagine that means that many of these children were physically and sexually assaulted Yeah, wow, okay Well, I don't you know, it didn't really say you know What the children's ward was like, you know, were they kids that were ill Or were they kids that were dealing with like behavioral issues or you know, it didn't really say what the kids were in there for Right. I mean they could have just been sick kids, you know, I don't know And then um the conditions were just like really unsanitary So there was human waste in the corridors patients would lie four days in soiled beds Um, and then beatings and rapes were common Okay The incontinence ward had no chairs, no activities, no entertainment or therapy just concrete floors Okay Well, that's not good Yeah, maybe they didn't you know, well, obviously they didn't have enough staff for activities and entertainment But you know, maybe they didn't want them to have furniture because they were like, oh, you're gonna soil it, but um, that's not okay Yeah, and also like I don't know lots of people are in content like I don't understand why That's not great Um, and the patients were beaten with sawed-off wooden brooms or rubber hoses filled with buckshot Um, some reports say that patients jaws were broken Doctors would pull teeth without Novocaine and were performed stitches or other medical procedures with no medication for pain Um, okay And then apparently back then it was believed like doctors believed that if you were schizophrenic that you couldn't feel pain and So yeah, it doesn't shock me Yeah, you know, but you would think like even if they believed that if they were treating these patients and noticing that the patients were Clearly reacting to pain Um, you would think they would rethink that theory But they just went along with that as if it was true and just would not give these people medication Wow I mean, I do know that like babies Like they didn't believe that babies could feel pain until the 80s. So babies were Receiving surgery until they were like until the 80s like babies were getting surgery without anesthetic So that doesn't really shock me that there was something like that, but that's still so horrific and terrible um Yeah, then some meds were overused to sedate people And there was actually a pharmaceutical company that had a shop inside the facility Oh, wow, because they had a deal with the hospital to experiment on the patients with different medications And the patients obviously could not consent. They were just you know Had to go along with it And a lot of them didn't have family to check on them and so they would just be coerced into participating in drug trials or Sometimes not even of course they were just forced to right. Yeah, that's so terrible as a person who does research like no Thank you And then there was a story of a staff that strangled a patient until one of his eyes popped out Oh my gosh, okay sometimes the um heavy-handed staff would not only Um, I mean they weren't fired or reprimanded for the violence, but they were often given raises You know if they were able to like be violent enough to keep people under control That's terrible Wow, and then you know, this is another really disturbing thing. There was one patient that was raped and murdered and dis dismembered by a fellow patient And because of the overcrowding they didn't even notice that she had gone missing Until they started fighting her like body parts spread all over the property Oh my gosh, and it would be like they would see a patient like playing with a hand or You know carrying around a foot or something like that and they'd be like, what is that? You know, where did you get this? And then they realized that this person had been killed But you know Yeah, it was like weeks later that you know, they just didn't notice she was gone because they were so understaffed and you know The staff they had really didn't care Wow, okay, that's terrible like Wow, okay Yeah, and then some of the treatments that they would use um electroshock therapy They had padded cells and they performed lobotomies Of course they did Which we all have feelings about that And then they had something called water cure And it was when they put a wet towel and they wrapped it around the patient's neck and they would twist and twist and twist So it was like being strangled and they would do that until the patient was subdued And apparently like using a wet towel doesn't leave any marks on the neck. So there was like no bruising So they could do that to patients and not have evidence that they had like strangled them So they're like legit torturing these people yeah, like not just Not just like and I mean obviously like physical and sexual assault is like a form of torture But like legit doing things like that. That's like So clearly not okay Wow And now we're going to get into some more of the neglect things so The violent word was referred to as the death house Okay And they had this large room that just had rows and rows of beds where men were shackled to the bed frames Okay And they had like thick leather handcuffs mitts wristlets straps and restraining sheets that hold them down and um You know, some people were confined to lodges that were empty bedless rooms And they just reeked a species because there was nowhere for these people to go to the bathroom And they had um In these lodges, um, they had only a half inch holes And still played at windows. So that room was only lit During the day and only through these half inch holes So as soon as the sun would go down, it would just be completely dark in these rooms That's terrible And again, these rooms are like completely overcrowded But you know barely any light during the day with these just half inch holes letting a little bit of sunlight in Right And then you know again the staff You know, they were kind of lower level convicts that were trying to avoid jail times so they didn't know how to manage the violent offenders So it is said that sometimes they would leave them in four point restraints for months at a time Oh my gosh months Yeah, so these people would just be like chain on their bed and you know, so going to the bathroom on themselves all that, you know, being barely fed Um There was one patient that in the 80s and he was known as William And he was reportedly in restraints for somewhere between 14 months and three years Oh my gosh, okay So like naked in a bed going bathroom on yourself they feed you a little bit here and there But you're shackled to a bed for you know, at least a year maybe three years Wow, okay Now in the 60s um Report showed that there had been little to the past 20 years since the initial photos went public And some people started reporting, um, or writing like tell all reports And so, you know, it kind of really sparked some outrage and people were wanting to see change Right So by 1962 by very began downsizing but not in a responsible way. What do you think they did to downsize? They fired the staff probably right or they would have or no 2000 people Um, some of them were transferred to other facilities, but most of them were just turned out on the street with no resources or support Okay So 2000 people just on the street, you know, and and again some of them were You know Deemed to be insane and some of them, you know, after being tortured and neglected probably hadn't you know All kinds of trauma and no idea how to take care of themselves Right, I mean because again like you would think like Even for like the lower level or the people who aren't like severely severely like dealing with like melancholy Which is very old timey, but like you would think that they Like in a perfect world would be given tools to be able to Readapt into society, but like this obviously is not the case with these patients No, and you know, I mean just so irresponsible like, okay, we're gonna solve overcrowding So they do that by just turning these people out on the street with no support I mean and again not that you would expect much from them because it's not like they had support while they were there They weren't being taken care of but you know to just put them out on the streets and like oh, you know Just go fend for yourself now and all of these people have trauma by this point, you know It's just sad Um, and then obviously the patients that remained continued to be abused so even though they were being looked at again They were still doing the same thing Um, some of these patients were able to escape because there really wasn't adequate supervision And you know, because they were so understaffed so sometimes people could slip out Um, there was one story where a patient escaped, but um You know, it was like winter time and like freezing cold outside. So he tried to come back in Mm-hmm. He couldn't get the attention of the staff to let him back in And um, so he ended up freezing on the street Oh my goodness. Yeah, sad But can you imagine that you're in a place that's so horrific And you know, so you escape, you know, but then you're end up freezing and your only option is to go back to this place that You know was horribly abusing you. I mean, that's a really hard choice But that would have been his only certain chance of survival Um, but he wasn't able to get back in And i'm assuming with how they didn't notice someone had been like murdered for weeks They probably didn't even notice he was gone till they found his body or something, right? Like yeah That's terrible And obviously there are many incidents of rape, murder, and suicide Among the patients and deaths were sometimes a notice for days And then in 1987 the governor of uh, Pennsylvania robert kasey ordered that the hospital be closed immediately Wow You know, but again, like so all of this, you know at the hospital open when did I say 1911 You know, it it was being investigated in the 30s the 40s and then again in the 60s You know, and it doesn't end up getting shut down until 1987 Yeah, wow But you know, so he ordered it to be closed immediately, but the population was so large that it took three years until the hospital was officially closed down Okay And most of the patients had to get out um You know or try to get support from like community programs and they most of them were like non-profit agencies that were helping But there were a lot of people that you know went out and they there just wasn't much support for them And I just you know, I just i'm gonna say again I don't know how you come back from that like, you know, if you've been in this horrible treatment for years and years and years And then you get out like I don't even know how you readjust or you know, you know, re Adapt to normal society or know how to take care of yourself or anything Yeah Who yeah, it really is hard to imagine How these people could find ways to survive or you know, hopefully thrive outside of the walls But the damage done, you know, it just would make it so hard to come back into the world in a healthy way and be productive Yeah, and I just you know, I can't even find them the support that they would need to be able to try to do that You know, it's just so sad Yeah Really really sad Yeah, hard to hear for sure Now I know you're gonna get into some of the Ghost the stories that we have but in 2006 The building was um bulldozed and it had already been empty for a long long time because it closed in 87 Or I guess really 90 1990 because it took three years to get everybody out, but um, you know, so yeah It wasn't bulldozed until 2006 and it stayed in empty field for a long time, but now it's a residential community for seniors Um, so I guess you can talk about some of the ghosts that you've heard about Um, but now that it's a residential community. I know it's not something that can be investigated Yeah, yeah, so that's kind of what's tough because I feel like with this one there are You know sightings of things or there are things that people have experienced But it's not as specific as say like waverly, right where it's been investigated a million times but so as you said it was empty starting in the 90s and um What is like the classic thing that happens in abandoned buildings? Like what is the classic thing that always happens and ghosts come from it? I mean, I feel like you just hear weird Streams growls run scrones like that kind of stuff. No, no I mean like things human beings do And abandoned buildings. What what is something a human being does? Oh, well, like well, our people would investigate I mean more like satanic cults Oh, okay. Well, some people do that. I choose not to participate, but yes, I think there's some people This is true. This is true. So um Reportedly, um The building before it was torn down in 2006 was used For things like gang initiations or things like that. They were also used apparently for satanic cults It is believed that a Portal has been opened in that area um a portal to hell um And some of this also has to do with the fact that the building has Tunnel systems underneath it which people call the catacombs. Oh, really? I didn't realize they called it then Yeah, so a lot of the you know like within the catacombs like a lot of the um Like when it was a hospital it sounds like it was used to transport patients or medication and things Like that um It was also a place where patients were um mistreated in many different ways um And so Kind of what people are seeing in the catacombs now are things like shadow figures um Sometimes people normally I mean I've been to the catacombs in france but normally you know catacombs are like where You know remains are put You know, I mean in france. They're like stacked floor to ceiling Um, but is that something they would do it like when people died would they keep them down there? Yeah, I think like if they like if someone died they would like keep them down there um Until they were able to get them like buried. So if there was like Some sort of delay or something like that, but there have been remains found down there and as I said like And mates were treated badly down there. So some people believe like some of like the violent deaths also could have occurred in the catacombs um Well, I you know, I didn't even read anything about like What did they do with the dead? Like did they try to give them a proper burial or did they just you know They probably didn't. I mean if they weren't taking care of life I can't imagine them taking care of them and does so Yeah, a lot of these people didn't have family to speak for them So it would make sense that they would probably just throw their remains anywhere Yeah, so I don't I don't really know what happened in the catacombs There wasn't a lot of research I found specifically like they burned the bodies or they did this or that But I know that bodies were stored there um but So some people are I'm sure of You know, whether there were people squatting in the catacombs after the building was emptied or what was going on There is actually a There's a kind of urban legend of a former patient who lives in the tunnels with a knife that's ready to stab anyone who comes near Um in the catacombs, however, there's really no evidence of this human being existing Um People do hear footsteps. They will hear footsteps either following them behind them or they hear them in the distance Like someone's running at the other end of the hallway um They also Have several times people have gotten three welts Um, which like I said is like a demonic thing mocking the whole eternity Um, so look at three that would that would probably just start if the satanic cult thing was true, right? Because before that if it was just a hospital with a lot of negative energy that wouldn't necessarily show up but if somebody opened a door Yeah Yeah, that's what that's what they were saying is like it's most likely a Due to the satanic cult the satanic cult. There we go words um but yeah, um Something interesting people have experienced too is that Like equipment like if they were filming or recording has gone missing like they'll put it down and then they'll like turn around and it'll be gone Yeah They also have had items taken out of their pockets um and One source I read was discussing the things taking out of pockets because you know If there was like an inmate living in the tunnels or something Maybe, you know, just maybe they wouldn't notice But to me when I think about pickpocketing like I think about being pickpocketed on like a really crowded subway Car where like I'm bumping and touching people like I would notice someone who wasn't supposed to be there touching me I feel like I'm like an empty hallway, you know um So I thought that was kind of an interesting one And that one sort of makes sense too, right? Like not only because some of these people were criminals and some of them petty criminals like pickpockets or thieves or things like that But also if these people had nothing, you know, they they weren't given much You know, the idea of trying to take anything they could Kind of make sense too. Yeah, exactly um There have been evps of a couple different things so there's been evps of children like laughing or playing um they've also Heard children or not children, but just like in general like really like loud growling and they said it was more human growling than in human growling um And then the obvious screaming I was gonna say with the treatment there probably would be a lot of groans and growls and screaming because they were being so mistreated Yeah, yeah Another one that I think sounds really creepy and would not enjoy is that people have experienced a man that is laughing But you don't know where he's coming from like it's almost like you're in surround sound and you just hear him All around you which is really scary to me Well, you have to wonder like what you know What is that is that like some kind of demon thing or is it like maybe that was one of the staff who was like enjoyed hurting people or Enjoyed seeing the suffering of people. Yeah, I mean it or it could just be somebody who Was insane and laughing at hallucinations, who knows but like yeah, that could be different things. I think Yeah, I mean either either way, it's really unsettling I think that would want to hear in surround sound that would freak you out too because you wouldn't know which way to go Yeah, oh, I would hate that um And then um there are some other sort of hauntings like the sound of shackles moving there's also the Very overwhelming smell of urine and fecal matter specifically they mentioned on the incontinence floor Which again is that just residual because they didn't clean the building or is that you know like An actual haunting we're not sure um Other things people have felt or heard is heavy breathing um like right behind you people have Experienced like damp hands going to grab you which is also very unsettling and I don't like I would not like that at all keep your damp hands to yourself I was gonna say a hand touching me unprovoked in general is not great, but a damp hand makes it worse for some reason It just feels dirty um People have also experienced the feeling of being strangled which we do think goes back to that torture we mentioned um people have blacked out low walking through just like flat out passed out um People have experienced being groped um on different parts of the body people have been slapped on the back people feel um Stinging on their wrists and ankles almost in places where people would have been shackled um And people have also experienced which is another one I hate is the shirts being tugged And people will experience their feet being held down So people will be trying to walk and they can't like something is holding place. I would not like that That would freak me out Nightmare fuel Yeah, I mean, you know, it's especially if you're trying to like you're feeling unsafe or something and you want to get away And then suddenly your feet are held to the floor. Oh my gosh, that would freak me out so much But like the groping and all that yeah, I mean because it does seem like there were a lot of sexual assaults that were happening Yeah So all of that energy makes sense that it would still be there Yeah, absolutely. Um, and then so some other common experiences um Like I said, there was like the human like growling and scratches appearing on bodies Um the blood so there are different screams. There are like screams that are more Um, like someone is in pain and then there are some screams that are just like really terrifying and scary that people also experience like I mean, I guess the scream in general is scary But there they're like there's a distinction between one where someone's like clearly screaming in pain and one where someone is just screaming to scream kind of If that makes sense um And then the last thing people would really do see a lot of are human figures walking into the woods Um, and people don't know If that is like patients who had escaped and went into the woods. We don't really know Um But I do think that is an interesting thing people see as well Um So yeah That's like kind of the the gist of the ghosts, but yeah that that one where they're holding your feet down freaks me out Like that and the second sound laughter. Can you imagine that at the same time where you're just stuck? Yeah, oh my gosh, and then said laughter all around you that would freak me out Well, and the the choking thing, you know that there resembles the water cure You know, I even say this part, but like the fact that they called it the water cure Like, you know, by use of doing you by strangling you until you were completely Like docile To call that a cure is like very upsetting Yeah, I mean, I think and you know, it's hard because We obviously know a lot more about medicine and things now, but I also feel like even at that time That would not have flown that would have not have been okay Because that makes sense that you know, people might experience that feeling while they're in that area Yeah, yeah, absolutely a lot of people have experienced being strangled um And it's interesting like someone being slapped on the back like I couldn't imagine like if that was like Because I see it in two ways. Are you like running and like someone's like, huh? Nice to see you bud or is it like someone's like shut like trying to hurt you slap you on the back Yeah, either way. I don't want anything that I can't see to slap me on the back That's true. We are not that friendly. Please don't touch me I do not give consent Yeah, um My gosh, but then you have to wonder right because like Once it's torn down, it was empty for a while and now it's like a residential community for the elderly Like you have to wonder like do they experience anything and I know it can't really be investigated now because it's you know, people live there Um, but yeah, it's like I wonder if they experience anything, but you would think like Whoever runs that property They probably wouldn't want people to know if there was anything spooky there because then people wouldn't want to move in They wouldn't want to send their elderly Relatives to live there Yeah, yeah, like I wonder because isn't there like this is maybe getting really into the nitty gritty but with like real estate law, isn't it like A death within the last three years, but if a death didn't happen They don't have to disclose in the last three years or something so then you think if it was I think the rules are different state to state, but some people might know the history there You know, I don't know if everybody went if you weren't from there Right But yeah, but even if they did disclose, you know, I just wonder if those people do experience anything But yeah, I don't know what the laws are about if people are experiencing ghosty things Do they have to report it to incoming residents? I think there are rules about that, right? Like I feel like there are but I don't I think it's state to state though, so I don't know what the rules are there But yeah, but I you know if I was running that property I would probably want to keep that hush given that it's for elderly people to have a safe space to come Yeah, you probably also would want to keep ghost hunters away because people are trying to Retire there and be okay, you know, so oh absolutely. Well, and something I do wonder is like You know, because the building has been torn down Do the ghosts just go away? Like in my brain, I don't think they would But there really hasn't been anything reported Since the building's been torn down and it became the residential Play so maybe that's maybe the people that were walking into the forest. Maybe that was them leaving Maybe could have been let's hope they're having a better afterlife Yeah, but I can't watch what most people went through. I mean Yeah, I know that sometimes there's not enough staff and it's hard but we still have to treat people humanely and kindly and Yeah, even people on the violent ward you can't keep them shackled to beds for months at a time like that's just crazy I mean if there was anybody there that was there for You know, just like wanting to recover from alcohol or You know wanting to you know somebody who is actually sick or something like that You know to go there or you would definitely come out of it Insane by that treatment, you know, yeah Yeah, I mean, yeah, like you said someone trying to recover from alcohol, which typically it's like Nowadays a lot of therapy and a lot of community building and a lot of just like you're not drinking and you're talking and like You're you're processing your journal and you're doing your things you're making your piece And it's like you can't do that in that type of space Even with you know people who do deal with like, you know suicidal ideation or like bipolar or schizophrenia any of that like nowadays like a lot of it like Is more so controlled with medication and like there are ways for these people to Succeed and thrive if they are given the proper treatment. So even just knowing that these people are probably worse off based on You know The treatment of this facility when they could have been like helped It's just so tragic Well, it's sad too, you know, because um at least in california I'm not sure how bad it is where you are, but you know, I mean you've seen it here when you live here You know that even now, you know, we have so many people dealing with severe mental illness gets funny as probably the biggest part Um, and you just see them on the street and you know, even now we don't have a system at least in california Where we take care of these people You know These people need care, but instead they're living on this street and you know, they don't we don't offer them very much in terms of services or support Um, so, you know, I want to stress, you know, we're not a hospital. We don't have state hospitals anymore here in california So we're not hospitalizing and neglecting and torturing people Um, but we're also not caring for them and so yeah, it's still I mean obviously we're doing better than this place was doing But you know, we're still not doing great for these people Yeah, and I mean it gets to like for me like I think it's a really hard debate anyway about like what to do, you know People humanely and doing the right thing, but also Like you said with what's going on in california and I mean we're seeing it in boston We're seeing it in new york. We're seeing it like in most big cities really um and other places like it's not just You know mental health in terms of like schizophrenia and stuff anymore right now It's like the opioid crisis and all of that and so you have people who are Just severely severely addicted and have no resources and we have no infrastructure to support these people um It's just all really sad and I don't know what this solution is, but we all should be trying to do better Yeah, I think we just need to Bite the bullet and do it. You're up dead Just like give people housing and therapy and I know that is something that people will not agree to because it's really expensive At the beginning, but it saves us money in the long run um But Yeah, I don't know that's just me Anyways, but we should all be treating each other more kindly I agree. I agree. Absolutely Well friends um No, that was a heavy one, but thank you for sticking with us. Um, if you Want to follow us on instagram, you could do that that with the opod. You can also Follow our patreon page. We have some lovely lovely bonus episodes on there Or may one is going to be posted or it might already be posted when this comes out. Um, so go check it out It's a it's a really sad and tragic one, but a good one. Um, we also have A gmail where you can send us story ideas or anything you really want to talk to us about We really love interacting with you all so feel free to reach out at what the opod at gmail.com Um, and outside of that. I just want to say I appreciate you mama Appreciate you too, baby. And we appreciate you friends. Bye - Bye.