The Duran Podcast
Militaristic EU - Clare Daly, Mick Wallace, Alexander Mercouris & Glenn Diesen
I don't want to. I've lent decent hair and I'm joined by Alexander McCurris and Clear Daily and Mick Wallace. So Claire and Mick are both members of the EU Parliament and currently up for re-election. Welcome. Thanks very much. So I follow some of the discussions and also statements coming out of the EU Parliament at times and well I must admit I find the strong consensus in the EU to be sometimes disturbing especially during wars in regards to Ukraine. It seems that everyone feels it's a great idea to chant that weapons are the path to peace and reject diplomacy for more than two years as hundreds of thousands of young men perish and we continue with these big steps towards nuclear war and challenge it. You're accused of being on the Putin payroll. In Gaza we see that support over horrific war crimes and possibly in genocide seems to be normalized. And again those who challenge it might be then simply labeled anti-Semite, terrorist sympathizer and Hamas supporters. So again in this political culture of consensus I guess we have two MEPs standing out with vocal opposition which is yeah Clear Daily and Mick Wallace. So with your radical suggestions such as restoring diplomacy looking for peaceful solutions. So I want to ask though since you are both up for re-election now how do you see this EU election being any different than before or is it more important especially given the EU seems to be taking a bit of a different direction than it had in the past when things were then was there to be a civilian power, ethical power, the language now appears to be steering more towards being a geopolitical power, a great power almost. How is all of this relevant do you think for this upcoming election? Yeah I mean I think it's absolutely critical. I mean we see the backdrop to this election now with Ursula von der Leyen there only a week or ten days ago announcing that when she comes back and it's a when not an if probably and you know that she is going to turbo charge defense that's her priority now and we know that we're one year away from a defense union and nothing will stop that we're one year away from the establishment of a rapid deployment capacity force which is a standing troops combat ready of initially 5000 multi coming from all the countries land, sea and air ready to go into environments including non-permissive environments in which Joseph Braille has said means boots on the ground so you're totally right that we see a total ratcheting up of tension of militarism money has been taking from budgets on the environment and transport on health and all of the things that would actually make people's lives better and it's been put into defense so we saw in the last parliament that most of the majority were very much on board that they think that the solution to Europe's problems is is more militarization but the reason why we've problems is that we haven't defended ourselves enough it's utter lunacy of course the opposite is the case because the war in Ukraine took place against the backdrop of a much much more accelerated militarization by Europe so militarism begets militarism and the military industrial complex goes laughing all its way to the bank there is establishing now a European Union defense industrial strategy as well so the next commission they talked the last time about the last commission being agreeing commission it wasn't put in any case but another story but the next one is going to be a war commission the defense as a not defense for the militarist commission I think yeah I mean one the line says she wants a special commissioner for defense next time round and as we know defense was called before the second world war it used to be a minister for war and that became a minister for defense because obviously war became a less attractive war and but that's what it is for for bond the line she wants a commissioner for war and yet we have Thierry Breton he's a commissioner that's bringing him hands on with the industry of military in Europe and he says now he wants he was a bit taken aback that that bond the line said she wanted a commissioner for defense given that he thought he was that even though that wasn't the title right so he was I was at the meeting where he said I thought I was doing that you know and he's actually he has envisaged a European defense bond of a hundred billion now I mean this is money that would come from the multi-financial framework which we agree every seven years now in the past and according to the treaties no money could come from the the multi-financial framework and go directly to military hardware or any element of defense but they've literally moved to goalposts without having to revisit the treaties and now we have European citizens money laying in the puppets of the military industrial complex and we've had people from the military industrial complex advising us how we should do that and why we should be putting billions into it I'm sorry can I just say I mean the European Union started as an economic union it was supposed to be about the welfare of people in Europe one of the reasons why people in Britain were won over the Labour Party in Britain the Labour movement in Britain when it existed was won over to the European Union back in the late 1980s and early 1990s was because it was supposed to be all about workers rights improving protections in the workplace whether it ever really was I'm not going to get into a discussion but that was how it was framed now we're not hearing anything about that anymore it's all about militarization building up military industries establishing funds and by the way I completely agree with you I don't see anything in the treaties that provides for the creation of anything like this in fact I would say clearly the treaties don't but that's my view anyway none of all of that and all is this is happening at a time when living standards of people across Europe are under growing pressure when workers actual rights are being eroded pretty much in every workplace and when health systems and social security systems and all the things that people have relied upon are coming under growing pressure still now just to say there is an election you're both MPs you're both up for re-election in that election now one of the reasons I am very keen to see both of you re-elected is firstly because you've both taken a strong stand against this militarization and you know talk of war you know a war commission I mean how could anybody talk about something like that with a straight face and and without any sense of embarrassment but also I mean probably because both of you have you know are on the left if I can say that you actually talk about these things that people worry about erosion of workers rights uh withering away welfare things all of those sort of things that I think most people in Europe really worry about and one of my big worries about European Parliament elections is that I don't think people generally in most European states are particularly engaged in them because the European Parliament is an important institution but one that people are not hugely involved in and so what tends to happen is that the kind of people who get elected to the European Parliament are those who are very connected with the political machines that exist in the various countries who of course will then deliver the votes that the political machine in Brussels also wants so it's not exactly a question but first of all do you agree with my overall analysis of the situation I think there are many people who think that because we're under so much pressure in Europe the elections this year are going to deliver a different outcome I don't believe that and the second is do you agree with me that I mean this is a bizarre thing to be doing at a time when um leading standards are under so much pressure across Europe and when so many people are worried about other things about their jobs their livelihoods how they're going to bring up their families what kind of protections they have in the workplace what the health and social security systems are going to be and other topics as well you know absolutely I would completely agree and I think most people would completely agree as well and interestingly in the last European Parliament elections I think the turnout was less than 30 percent in about seven member states in some countries they're compulsory voting so it was a bit higher but that disconnect would be enormous in countries like Ireland where the media don't cover any of the work or the decisions that are made they just repeat the rhetoric they just wave the European Union flag and then they call anybody who stands up against that of Putin puppet and all the rest and that's repeated and repeated so that you don't have a critique of the policies that are being engaged in you don't have an examination of where all this public money is going and the lunacy of war instead you have slogan earrings smearing and it's become now a sort of a mantra of European politics that the idea of an exchange of views is becoming outdated they claim to be in a battle of democracy against authoritarianism but are becoming incredibly authoritarian in that where a dissenting voice is immediately smeared where when people protest they're driven off the streets like in Germany or they're called anti-Semites or Russian spies or whatever it is and as you say the real issues the bread and butter issues the reason was really interesting the UN special rapporteur on housing said listen lats if you want a reason for why the virus is growing it's because you haven't built any houses and that's totally right and those issues aren't being discussed while they ratchet up the geopolitical tensions or use the migration issue to divert and divide people into you know getting all stressed about that and meanwhile the boys who are pocketing all the cash are not being examined and I mean the project was ever so I mean it was always a neoliberal project to develop a new sort of Europe in the interests of big business that's copper fastened into the treaties where all the lovely stuff you were talking about which was sold to the people of going on your holidays and being able to have your kids study abroad and work abroad and all that nice stuff workers write social progress these things were won by people organizing in their countries and yeah maybe they had the odd directive but they followed they never led on that but what we're seeing now is the masks slipping and European values being the old values of colonialism and I think that is something that a lot of people are seeing through Gaza and it's walking the more big time yeah I mean the we feel that there's probably a delivered effort to actually make the people feel that the political process doesn't serve their interests and doesn't care about them anyway and it kind of makes them kind of it just a lot of people are really frustrated and fed up with politics they see truth and we don't have a mainstream media that's remotely interested in explaining I would say for example how the European institutions will be at Parliament Commission or Council and we don't have a government that's interested in giving information either I mean sometimes when we have a referendum and we've had a number of them we often have referendums because of the nature of our Constitution but when we do have a referendum there's an obligation on them to put out information right when this is never done for the European Union elections now Claire was talking about just over 30% in many or seven European countries the last time there will be about 50% in Ireland because we have local elections the same day right without the local elections obviously the percentage would be lower but the part of what 50% is we're independence with no party machine we just work with a couple of friends and do our best but the others our competitors have huge machines they spend the fortune and they throw huge numbers at us to have the money and they have the mainstream media to help them along the way and that the mainstream media is a big factor I mean Ireland got its so-called freedom from the Brits a hundred and three years ago and we've had Igerfina fall or Finigale every day since now that's scary that's that's kind of qualifies as a bit of a dictatorship right and the reason that there's always been one of them in power despite the fact that they've been a horrifically disappointing in so many ways for so long the media helps them to stay there and it helps them just to promote their message to hold out whereas we get ostracized we get deemed as you say I mean because we wanted peace we didn't support Russia invading the press we condemned us despite the fact that it was provoked as Stoddenburg brazenly told us at our foreign affairs committee he laughed about the fact that he provoked the war because he said that we're talking to the Russians in December 2021 and that he said the Russians wanted Ukraine neutrality back to the mainstream agreements an end of NATO's easterly expansion and he says there are conditions for non-18 Ukraine and he says rather and he laughed and he says well obviously we didn't agree to that he says right so but anyways we fought for peace from day one we wanted the promising dialogue to commence and but we were written off by the mainstream media as Putin puppets because we wanted peace and yet just to show you the distance and the disconnect between the people of Europe and the political class I mean within six months of the war started over 80 percent of the people of Europe were wanting peace rather than continuing to punish Russia there was a huge survey done by the European constant foreign relations which is actually EU body but it was very expansive and at that time they did that only four months after the war and started and over 70 percent are already wanting peace instead of continuing to punish Russia and that became a he presented in another two months yet twice that year in the first year of the war clearing myself for him an amendment to the Ukraine resolution and our amendment called on the EU to maximize its potential to commence dialogue on diplomacy with a view to ending the war and bringing about peace over 80 percent of the MEPs voted against that they didn't want the war to stop they didn't want peace they wanted the war to continue and if people think that's scary six weeks ago in Strasbourg in April the last plenary in April we had a vote on placing an embargo on EU member states to stop the flow of weapons from EU member states to Israel while the war continued four out of five MEPs opposed that the four out of five MEPs wanted a weapons to continue to go to Israel to kill Palestinian you know really difficult place one thing yeah Claire just mentioned is sloganering it really sticks out because if well when the EU was able to deliver proper economic benefits to all its member states this could be a foundation for unity but it feels often now the EU becomes more and more dependent on yeah this sloganering because it's I noticed that with the EU debate all the way actually from the 2000s when when everything was spoken about being four or against the EU being more europe or less Europe so you had the you know for example Russians that in the like the fact that the europe meant in moving dividing lines towards their border and in excluding them from Europe the British didn't like that the sovereign powers would go from elected parliaments to the EU bureaucracy dangarians wanted to restore some of their world traditional value so everyone had some different ideas what Europe should be but instead we took this contestant concept and just said well this is europe and if you don't support what we're doing then you're anti-european more europe has to be the solution so then well what seems to be proper issues which we should have spoken about having debates about was just brushed away with these slogans and the fields we're doing the same in this in the current wars because you know we're saying well we have to be pro-ukranian we have to support Ukraine but what does it mean we're toppling their government suppressing all their elections when the Ukrainians vote for peace platforms allowing the US to run it as a colony pushing them to do this offensive machine with Ukrainians didn't really want to do it's just we we have this slogans which doesn't really mean anything and we do the same now with the israel of course where we say yeah we have to you know support the right for self-defense but who's self-defense they won't occupy the Palestinians but also shouldn't the Palestinians have to say so we don't actually discuss what these terms mean we just come with the slogans which everyone seemingly want to agree with but anyways that was my question my my question was about Ireland because it's a very unique country in europe in the sense that it's very independent minded it didn't really we want to avoid some of this militarism and of this post-Cold War year we've been building it's primarily been built on two pillars which is NATO and the EU and for the Irish the EU was the main pillar to grab onto us this was sold as being a civilian normative non-military power throughout at least the 90s and most of the 2000s but how how is the site are they reacting now if if we're now going to make the EU this military machine and I'm also guessing is it is it a French who's pushing most I mean if it was the EU was an economic club the leadership would be cemented with the Germans if you make it military I guess it would would have to pounce the mantle some to some extent to the French how are the Irish addressing this or are they starting to accept militaristic Ireland as well well I mean there's a lot of changes on the top and there's some changes in the middle and I suppose when it's been tested and traditionally there's been a huge affinity amongst the population to our neutrality people really like it they like the idea that when we were our defense forces went abroad they could only do so under the UN mandates we were the peacekeepers we didn't take sides we talked to everybody and people like that now it was always a hypocritical scam in some ways in that while the people believed that we were neutral and in name we were during all of that period they allowed the US military transit through our airport on its way to theaters of war in the Middle East or Afghanistan and Iraq and I mean when we were in the Irish Parliament we had hundreds of questions to these ministers and they try and tell us that there was nothing on the ship on the planes they came every day like how hundreds of thousands of troops came through but they were just transiting and they weren't doing anything just going their holidays like in on there was no weapons on because the Americans told them there wasn't any and they accepted their words so that scam was going on but they couldn't be blatant about it and even recently when they tried to move and our government is very Eurofile they're the same types of people who in the past bent the knee and when Britain was in power here they're the same who bent the knee to US corporations to come in the multinationals for all the jobs and the money and oh my god what would we do without the Americans so they're the same type of people who do that but look I think they've have tried to undermine and push away from that but even against the backdrop of the massive propaganda of the war in Ukraine people still said no one who tried now they're trying to scare people day and night that the Russians are commons and that we need to defend we can't be infantile anymore it's just not in our interest we've got to grow up manor we haven't the luxury of being neutral in this very dangerous world we've got to cop on we're not spending a lot and some people I've actually had one or two people raised that with me this time normally in Ireland if you said how are we on neutrality you had to be the biggest most outspoken person on neutrality which we are anyway but a couple of people this time said to me no I don't agree with you we're really on stage so there's a a move by the Irish establishment and we're more and more in so they'll say NATO god we're not going to join NATO no no no we'll never join NATO but we just want to cooperate with our European peers but the European Union have made it clear that NATO is the EU you know there was some some Russian ships were had engaged in exercises about 200 miles or 200 kilometers from our coastline there a while back and it was uproar about this right and this was like now there's no reward about the fact that NATO ships are around the place marna noon and night right and that we actually we actually work with the Brits especially on air surveillance and all right so anyway the idea I mean I had this this actually came up in a radio interview that I was doing the other day as well and the it was put to be all we have to build an army of our own we can't be dependent Europe can't be dependent on America anymore Ireland can't be dependent on Britain anymore so it's you know we've got to build our own and I said well there's no one god there's no one there's no one on more to the interest in bidding us and if they did if we if we actually formed an army we wouldn't be able to farm an army that would keep anybody out anywhere it's a completely useless exercise right it doesn't make any sense but the scaremongering about Russia what's in in the media in Ireland is very strong but we have you have the same scaremongering coming from the elites in the European institutions now traditionally foreign affairs was really the area of the council we have three institutions we have to cancel with the parliament we have to commission the parliament only wants directly elected and as you said okay an important institution would have been powerful but it is important because it gives us a platform to raise a vice and to challenge the elites who are serving the elites of Europe and not serving the citizens of Europe in the manner that they should so it gives us an opportunity by being in the parliament to challenge them the commission is not elected they're appointed by the big groups and the council obviously is made up of the 27 member states and ministers come to the council meetings for example it was a foreign affairs meeting the minister for foreign affairs from the 27 member states would come and they would have a discussion and most of the talks are being secret as well but the truth is that traditionally the member states a council were very conscious of money and they didn't want to do anything that would cost a country money at home exports in particular right wouldn't want to be hurt in exports right so they generally tend to kind of seduce me sensibly rather than think in a geopolitical fashion but that's changing and there's been huge pressure on the council members to actually kind of look at the bigger picture from their perspective we're under threat it's Ukraine now next to be Poland next to be the politics I mean it's so irrational it's not funny right but they are and when we challenge that we are accused of this information and the Georgians who have just are trying to introduce the foreign agent spill and are being told oh that's so one European oh my god we the Georgians are looking for a little bit of transparency on how their NGOs are being funded and anyone that's getting more than 20% of funded outside the country should the terrorists and do not have to even ask them to be dissolved they're asking them to be transparent and admit where they're getting the money because most of it is common from the Europeans and Americans but yet it's called the Russian law despite the fact the Americans already have one and the Europeans are bursting at the seams to bring in their own to deal with the threat of Russia as well so I mean all this rhetoric they actually can't back it up and it doesn't make any sense but sadly you know with the mainstream media support it does have an impact and some people take oh god maybe the Russians will come and so it does create a fear and if those people that are worried about the Russian common remember then that oh sure we're Russian spies and we're we're Putin's puppets so I mean it's a vote for us it's dangerous and the big problem with a 50% turnout is that you have the established parties like Pina Falle and Pina Gayle and Labour at traditional parties in Ireland their hardcore will be in that 50% they have come out so the bigger the turnover the bigger the turnout the better for us because whole of our people sadly with politics in general across the world especially in Europe a big problem is that the young people are not voting and the poor are not voting and they're the ones who could make the difference absolutely that's is entirely correct and one always almost wonders whether the current structure of politics and the current structure of the socio-economic system is almost designed to make that happen in the sense that you really want to create a system which doesn't deliver for poor people for young people so it's a disincentivizing them it's a disincentivizing from voting which of course thereby perpetuates and consolidates the system now there's this anyway there's just a point another point I wanted to make I mean you you're both independent and that's absolutely right that's very important and by the way Ireland has a long history of people who are political independence if you know anything at all about Irish history you will know how important that is and how the fact that there have been all of these people who've been able to come forward and that's moved that that was absolutely central to Ireland ultimately achieving its independence from Britain but can I just say your independence you're yourself you are independence you're also in my opinion well within a certain tradition in Irish politics and it's a tradition which achieved Irish independence Irish freedom Irish neutrality being very much a part of Irish freedom in the sense that if Ireland had not been neutral it would have been in alliance with Britain and that would have created all kinds of connections which Irish people who are breaking away from Britain didn't want to be in do people in Ireland understand that if Ursula Lefond Alliance vision of a war commission and a defence minister and a budget are created then Irish neutrality dies because Ireland is going to find itself not part just part of an alliance because the EU is more than an alliance it is an economic union it's got its central institutions which are very different from NATO's institutions at least in theory I mean you would have decisions being made about not just Irish foreign policy or at least foreign policy that determines Ireland but also conceivably war policy that might affect people in Ireland in all sorts of ways if it is ever allowed to happen I would have thought that anybody in Ireland aware of Irish history aware of all that happened for Ireland to be free I'm sorry if I'm sounding a bit romantic and sentimental here would understand that this is an extremely dangerous thing and that the island that will come out on the other side of it will not be the kind of Ireland that it fought to become for so long in a struggle by the way which in the north of Ireland still continues but just asking these questions yeah if you want to take that one and people would be shocked and horrified and would be aware that it's kind of alien to our history were they to be educated properly enough about the scale of what's going on that's our first biggest problem is I we have been three weeks in the campaign we're more than the halfway mark and I haven't heard that discussion being aired anywhere it's the key discussion face in the new commission it has not featured in any debate or anywhere yet so there is a huge problem and all the points make made about the mainstream media is a part of it and I think then what we see is a capture of power by these in some on paper there are inheritors of those people who fought for freedom but they've actually flipped and gone full circle and they're just totally serviled to the European project it's a feature that we see across Europe maybe less so in Ireland but we noticed it in some of the other countries that the MEPs who are being elected for example they come they represent part but they're educated in these European schools they don't speak their own language when they speak they speak English was kind of an American accent and they want to impress the bureaucrats in the bubble not represent the people from whatever tradition they come from so any debate then about Europe is seen to be you have to follow that line it's the same point Glenn was making about dissent and cancel culture and all of this so we're an embarrassment and a disgrace because we did something different we stood against the herd and that was so shameful for marlin's according to the political establishment but actually in our history was absolutely in line with the way in which Irish people behaved to stand up to be neutral to put the hand out to everybody work with everybody and we will talk to people all across and we have been all across Europe and in every single country including the ones that the European Union tell us oh Sweden has changed now Sweden has joined NATO well I've been at meetings of hundreds of people in Sweden who were saying well lucky ye the chica a choice because we didn't get a choice and we don't want this and it's making our country more on say in Germany in Austria in Greece in Italy we've been at these means and everybody is the same they're all just completely disconnected so I mean I think if people did know and work they would rebel because our our tarnished our second-in-command is moving now to get away at the same time as we've a rapid deployment capacity policy force been set up next year which is an EU army small one at the start but then it's in place a defense union he's abolished an air trip a lot which is the means by which Irish troops serve overseas he wants to allow that to happen without a UN mandate so it's not a fantasy to say that in a year or two's time Irish men and women in the defense forces could be gone overseas to fight for German fossil fuel interests in Africa or French ones and come and home in a bodied bag and I can tell you in the context of our history that will be an absolute game changer but people aren't aware of it if if someone if anyone in Ireland has heard that we were actually going to move away from the UN and go towards this new version move away from the UN charter and start looking to the rules best international order which the Western powers make up is to go along people who have been horrified 10 or 15 20 years ago horrified and they find us my god what what's going on what's going on with the UN listen the UN is very very far from the perfect but right now it's as good as we've got and we've got the the UN charter is our bible and we should adhere to it and sadly the big western powers for many years had been ignoring us but paid lip service to us now they're getting tired paying the lip service and they're moving away from it brazenly and they're trying to drive plenty with them now that's the struggle for them when when I suppose the European defense fund that that was dreamed up for around 2015 and a panel was set up and over 80 percent of the people on the panel that were going to advise the commission about how we should progress around this area over 80 percent of them came from the industry it was a horror show and lo and behold they recommended that we start spending billions and building a European defense fund because problems are common now we all know that at this stage that had been the main coup in Ukraine in 2014 the Americans admitted spending five billion organizing the regime change we know now that NATO NATO were in there advising the troops and training them and whatever and but things have changed since then and obviously Ukraine has been a stick to batter Russia with and that was the plan hasn't worked out quite as well as the light but the lie about Ukraine is still there and they're still refusing to tell the truth about it right we we've a situation now where a promoter of war that was unwinnable we'd have had a nuclear war it before Russia would have lasted because winning to the EU was also taken Crimea back that had been a nuclear war before Russia lost Crimea right and yet we continued pouring billions with arms into the Ukraine to make sure the war didn't stop meanwhile they reckon now they're close to 300,000 working-class kids in Ukraine are dead for what we're colonizing the place I was on the file for the Ukraine facility this is 50 billion the latest 50 billion initially it was all about reconstruction and and I was on the file of one of seven one for me that there are seven groups in the parliament and one person is paid from each group to water the meetings and he's without right and I said is upon billions in on one end helping to continue to strike the place I said he was trying to rebuild it at the same time I said that's not a good business plan I said to be building and destroying the same time and it's an awful lot of money and who's gonna who's gonna pay the money right so anyway eventually the 50 billion was passed right and there's less talk about reconstruction but more about keeping the show on the road now right but okay but who's paying for in actual fact one card of the money is a grant two charges alone right and I said talk now it do you guys generally care genuinely care about Ukraine give them the whole give them all give it all to me a grant but tell the European citizens that their money is going to it but I said giving them two charges of it in debt is another debt trap I said they can't pay back the money they are already all they're never going to pay this back so what you're doing is you're colonizing the place you're going to own it you are and now as if that's not bad enough when the IMF gave them a loan in 2021 one of the agree one of the the conditions of the loan was that Ukraine changed its land purchase arrangement at that time foreigners couldn't buy land so that was dropped so then large corporations from Europe and America could buy lots of 25,000 acres at a time 10,000 hectares at this stage European corporations have bought more land in western Ukraine than the Russians have taken on the east side where suddenly with a debt it's a death trap that they're never going to be able to pay back we're going we're going to own the place but the Russians don't own wheel on right and Ukraine sovereignty is a long long piece away right and still and still we don't mind continuing to throw throw walk-and-class Ukrainians into the meat grinder do they care about them and all the all the politicians that bow to keep the war going did any of them go over down five did any of them send their kids over they didn't it's interesting this collapse on neutrality I guess the Irish would feel it's stronger than others given a history of neutrality but you see this across Europe from Scandinavia Switzerland Austria I mean they saw across the border neutrality neutrality became not something positive but something to be shamed remember when the United States they went in to remove Khan in this regime changing Pakistan the American ambassador they had called it aggressive neutrality not to take a stand same as Toltenberg now saying you know we can't deal with China unless you align with our policies this this idea that you can't that this is the the peak of morality that you have to join in and expand this conflict even further as opposed to and not non-involvement in this country and so in Norway we used to have a rule we don't send weapons to conflict zones well it's out the window now that it's it's immoral and we also used to have rules about not having a foreign basis on our soil now we're going to have a littered the whole country with American basis and yeah we're not debating it of course so it's all this happening very very quickly but I guess my my question was then on how how you counter counter the propaganda because this cancellation of neutrality it seems to be resting yes Mick was pointing out as well a lot on propaganda because people haven't been told any of the truth about the Ukraine the terms most people don't know that the Ukrainians and Russians pretty much agreed on the peace agreement immediately after the Russians invaded that this was a way to push through the Minsk agreement but they're they're not told and that's also Mick pointed out in Georgia now they're trying to replace something similar you have all this NGOs you know stoking this riots here the prime minister of Georgia is warning that you know the u.s could possibly topple the government there because they want to open a second front against the Russians and and foreign ministers from across the EU are showing up to march with the protesters I read Dutch MEP who threatened to sanction all Georgian MPs democratically elected MPs who would vote for this law to have some transparency with all these NGOs this big they're not real NGOs it's a non-governmental organizations these are all funded by governments and and again my point is when you what can argue for this however we there's no discussion it seems when you open the papers it only says well let's either choose the European freedom or you choose the Russian law and that Georgia will be under Russian control this is just it's so it's very dishonest and I feel some of this goes against two of you as well because if you raise legitimate discussions it's you know how much is put in pain you are you put in trouble we just do this slogan so how do you cut through this and try to have some I guess rational discussion well I think it's beginning to change it's beginning to change out of the tragedy of what's actually happening on the ground in Ukraine and they can't even hide it anymore like even the dumbest of sort of people who don't you know from a political level who don't know anything kind of know now that there's no hope for Ukraine militarily and even though they're still pushing them on and that's the basis to it I do think people feel alienated from that type of labeling and the slogan earring the jingle is on the flag wave and it's totally vacuous disconnected from reality and that's adding to people's sense of paralysis as well two things happen for us that made it a bit easier and we do get the you should be ashamed yourself working for Russia every single day when we're canvassing well I do I haven't met making three weeks until now so are we happy as well yes we get that every single day I look I even look like a Russian spy every day I have met people every day who said thank you so much for your position on the war in Ukraine it was so important for us that there was another voice there and those voices had been silenced like because when we were in the take of us really getting it in the neck when you were nearly afraid to go home like because of people shouting abuse and all of that there was always a core group of people who said that's amazing they might have been afraid to say it and what they were really appreciative and across Europe they were really so that the horror of the war has made it easier I mean there was a survey done last week which says 63% of people in Ireland now believe that the mishandlers they should negotiate but also changing it relates to a point you made Alexander earlier that I'd forgotten about was Frau genocide herself Ursula von der Neumann has been the best holster girl for change in the attitudes in Ireland towards the European Union people are literally transfixed in horror of what that one has enabled and supported in Israel but with standard by Israel against the people of Gaza it's a huge issue everywhere for people and they've seen not that the you know some people try to say oh it shows they were so supportive of Ukraine why can't they support Palestine we said no it's exactly the same they supported the war in Ukraine they are supporting the war on the people of Gaza it's the same thing and isn't it mad and it comes back to the other point about how discourse has become sort of debased is that and in Ireland you know you couldn't accuse somebody of being an anti-Semite because people just laugh at you because they kind of understand the whole history thing and they understand the difference between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism but like our position on the two situations were the same we called for a ceasefire and a negotiated settlement in Ukraine and we called for a ceasefire and a negotiated settlement in Gaza but nobody says you're a Netanyahu puppet because you wouldn't get away with that but grown men and they're generally men in my experience grown men and of a certain age and class standing seem to have bought this line that we are Putin puppets just because of our um for peace yeah but um I suppose they are too smart they are but in Ireland um I see the place in mainland Europe as well but in Ireland in particular um the European Union's failure to condemn Israel after they killed 15,000 children and 10,000 women and we still haven't condemned Israel we didn't throw them out of Santa Antifa we didn't throw them out do you have a football championship which we'll share with everything which we're throwing out with dog shawls and yeah people are starting to see especially in Ireland where uh the Irish have always had the Irish people not the politicians the Irish people have always had an affinity with the Palestinians because we were there right we we had 800 years of the Brits right and now that's that's all because people have forgotten it and it's been passed down by word of mouth and uh it's it's a very powerful theme still right so watching what happened what's happening Gaza and they they cannot even condemn Israel they cannot call it a genocide they can pretend oh it's just another war my god it is it is really making the Irish people kind of kind of sit back and say oh god now they haven't joined the dots with Ukraine because there was such a job done and on the the whole storyline around what was going on in Ukraine they will join them in time they haven't got there yet but the the the European Union's position the parliament the council and the commission their position on Gaza has exposed them like nothing before like nothing before and the Irish people are kind of wondering how I thought I thought the EU was progressive I thought EU were good that's I can't believe this yeah support in the genocide how can they do this oh i don't understand and but what this is done as well I mean the Irish politicians have said some nice words about the Palestinian word don't know in since the 7th of October under a question in the in the Irish parliament about two months ago a question at the minister how much your use weapons have been nicely by the Irish government go to Israel from Ireland since October 7th we sent 31 million euros worth of dual use weapons to Israel since October 7th to kill Palestinians mainstream media not telling that even though that that's on the record in the parliament and there's a video of it but this is this is shocking as well but the politicians because the people are so much uh sympathetic to the Palestinian cause because the people are like that the politicians are afraid uh to be say anything nasty about the Palestinians now to give they're prepared to kind of give the Israelis a slap on the hand a little bit but yet at the same time when we go into the council of ministers meeting and Brussels when our minister goes in there what does he do he falls into line like the rest of the sheep which is why one needs a strong European parliament and one needs strong MPs like yourselves who are prepared to give out and speak out because you know if you're not there i mean i i actually made the point um i'm sure you saw me say which is i i don't i couldn't bear to watch European parliament debates any longer this the two of you're not there because who else speaks out like you do and that's of course what a parliament is meant to be for that's what parliaments are for ultimately needs for people to hold for for elected representatives to hold parrot to account which of course is particularly difficult with the the EU context given that oceola von der Leyen who by the way you both take apart magnificently can i just say um um i mean she's not directly elected in ways that you know other political leaders around the world are not a later at all at all exactly she's chosen exactly she's a chosen she's a chosen official does anybody make the point um you know outside yourselves that you know the same people who advocate war and conflict in Ukraine want to send more weapons want to send confront the Russians in every conceivable way want to set up war ministries and defense ministries the same sorts of people who attack the two of you are the same people who in Gaza are happy to say absolutely nothing or perhaps even outspokenly in some cases by the way to support Israel because i know that in island the Palestinian issue is important both Palestine and island were British colonists at different times actually Palestine became a British colony just as island was gaining its freedom so at least most of island was gaining its freedom but i mean you said that some people are beginning to join the dots but isn't it perhaps obvious when one just takes a step back and looks at this that there is a connection it's somebody isn't going to be advocating war in one place and peace and and and you know peace i'm sorry no let's take that back uh complicity with another war somewhere else without the being a connection without this all being part of the same kind of strategy a policy of whatever you like western aggression western imperialism call it whatever you will but the the the there is a connection and that this is again if island is a part of that it is fatal to that which all those people going all the way back to you know united irish men and all of those others fought for for so long i would love to say that that was the case i suppose um i don't know do you want to try and answer that it's it's very yeah go on and first of all we like to think that all is not lost hmm now and there's always hope and there's hope in the people there's not much in the politicians and the the two wars of ukraine and gaza have highlighted the huge gulf between how the people feel and how the politicians act the the gulf has never been greater but also the it has never been as apparent to the people as before from our perspective we feel that more people see it now than ever saw it before whether that's enough you know selective remains to be seen but uh things are changing right we still uh there's so much about the european union that's problematic and it's going in the wrong direction and it's being a whole for itself and things are getting worse we like to think that pressure from the people over the next couple of years can make things different and can change things and force the politicians right now the EU behaves like a vassal state of u.s empire and that's hugely problematic we don't really think for ourselves we we we put russian we put sanctions on russia to please the americans and nato and we saw our food prices grew up 20 for our citizens our energy prices went up over 30 percent we sacrificed our own for us nato you are but you know what the people are not impressed and they're going to a different place now in their minds and i honestly i am i remain positive that the european budget can be retrieved from these warm numbers and that we can become something that's noble and that works for peace rather than more again you know i mean i make it is right like i mean the the blinkers are off now if this election like the last election all people cared about was Brexit you know what i mean they were sick hearing about it anyway there's no discussion really about europe and what the project was you know what i mean it's like oh my god we want to leave like them oh that's terrible that's all it was but now actually there is scrutiny like never before because of other line and because of gaza absolutely that has changed things and it has changed things in terms of a recognition of our role as well and sometimes in a terrifying way in that we know our voices are heard in palletine and where we to lose this platform no doubt it will be spun as a blow to palletine and the israelis would be delighted and all the rest of it but i mean your point about how people haven't joined the dots is one that will be the subject i think of many pht studies because if you think about it we were anti-war activists all our political lives when we were in the quires parliament we broke into the airport at shannon to search us warplanes we were in court for days over this we mentioned neutrality so with that background the mik was a businessman when he wasn't involved in politics his buildings were draped with the thing no to war no to american terrorism so we've a long history and then this war comes along and people actually believe that we were the ones who support a war in ukraine and all of those ministers from ireland who enabled challenge to be used that they somehow were against the war in ukraine except that that would be important you know you've made you've made exactly the point i was trying to make which is a carry-on cleft no i just i just say it's absolutely mental yeah it is absolutely i was just going to make uh yeah but just my final comment before we run out of time now and i just wanted to say because you keep saying this yeah connecting the dots and i think uh one of the reasons why people don't necessarily always connect the dots and you know how someone who posts every war is being seen now as being a supporter of innovation i you know it really needs i guess people to appreciate what what propaganda actually does because you know when they when you want to encourage people to invade and do this horrible thing genocide you you do you appeal to the best in people usually in order to make them do the worst and this is what you know you say we we need to support the jewish people because of all the horrible things that were done to them which everyone would agree with but then this translates into backing a genocide same as who ukraine we all want to see a free prosperous ukraine with but every time where but they they come up with the slogans but when this translates into policies it always entails sabotaging peace agreements sending more and more ukrainians down to the trenches to die even though we know the war can't be won and uh it's it's just this time and time again it's always the same things same with europe everyone wants to be for europe it's our continent we want stability but every time we talk about europe now it's always uh yes taking the need to wonder lie and then if you're pro-west you have to subordinate your foreign policy to the americans it's just uh i wish people would dissect some of the rhetoric and how how why that this peaceful rhetoric they have always translates into war and conflicts so uh anyways you're not all running at time so i'll well it was my last remark i was going to say the reason for that and i was said so eloquently by our president michael de higgins at an event last week when he said he just uh he condemned the fact that people had to fight for the space to talk about peace and then he said the military industrial complex is the most dangerous organization in the world and that's why we're all in the situation where you i'm out in the bit that's why we're all in the situation we're in he just said the military industrial complex is the most dangerous organization in the world and it is and that's why we have all the problems we have and and and imagine it was back in 1960 eisenhower was the first guy to use the term the military industrial complex and he warned the world that this was dangerous and we should be very worried my last comment is around alternative media we have the mainstream media have been bought and paid for uh the ear ear podcast other people's podcasts that we listen uh so many people that i know now are starting to listen to more and more podcasts to get their information and that is so important and because without transparency without information they always told us there was no democracy and now they don't want to give us truth information they don't want to give us transparency because they don't want us to see what they're doing what we the alternative media can help people to get to that space and inform them better and it's so vital that uh that you continue to grow absolutely well i'm gonna make my very first final point which is first of all i absolutely do want you both elected to the European Parliament re-elected again i hope everybody on an island understands how important that is i want to just add quickly to the point about the fact that people are seeing through the smears i have never known in my lifetime a period when the political class certainly in Britain felt as insecure and as doubtful of its control and of its doubt doubts about you know the fact that he has the loyalty of the people as it does now so actually yes we are winning but in order to keep on winning and to consolidate that victory we need people in the European Parliament in all those other institutions who will continue the battle the battle for peace and the battle for you know protections and living standards and for the increase in democracy which is we all benefit from and for openness and for proper dialogue and you know proper modern debate proper debate but also as a said who will address the buttery which is all of these things red and buttery which all of these things are connected we need people in the Parliament's who can address the Ursula of Underlines directly and put them on the spot we need them there and that's why i want Mick Wallace and Claire Daly back in the European Parliament after the election which takes place soon so that's all i'm going to say that's my very last final word i hope there are people in island listening i'm sure they're off and you heard you heard you heard you heard us me it's consistent with the island i know but it's also important for Europe but all of Europe and you know ultimately for humanity as well thanks so much guys thank you for allowing the dialogue huge fans thanks so much thanks that's the luck with the reelection and uh fighting this long and airing thanks a million we'll do our best see you soon thanks very much bye bye you