(upbeat music) Final segment, Canucks Central Dan Richo and Satyar Shah here in the Kintec studio. Kintec Canada's favorite orthotics provider powered by thousands of five-star Google reviews. Soarfeet, what are you waiting for? It is a Wednesday. That means it's time for overrated or underrated here on Canucks Central, hit the music. (upbeat music) Hi, we've got producers Eddie and Ben with us today for overrated, underrated. Gentlemen, hello. How are we doing? - Very good. - I don't know about Ben. - We're doing great. - Yeah. - I'm doing great, sorry. I don't wanna speak for Eddie. He's doing great too. - Eddie's always delightful. - I know. - He's never in a bad mood. - We've spent a lot of time together recently during this conduction. - I'm maturing as I get older. Trying to be less grumpy, at least at work anyways. - Yes. - That's why he is me here. (laughing) - Ben's always a ray of sunshine. - There he is. - He's always happy, always smile. - Sure, he's always golfing. - Yeah, of course he's always. - No, he is. - I'm sorry. (laughing) - That's good to be mad about. - Exactly. - All right. - Overrated, underrated. When he coached in the year, the Jack Adams. - Well, that's... - Well, if you're fired the next year, it's overrated. But if you have a long tenure, like if it's the beginning of a 70 or 10, you're like, "L.A. and Vignose was." It's very underrated. So, hey, look, if you're Rick Tockett, it's underrated. You're forever gonna have this on your resume. And what does that mean? - Probably gonna... No matter what happens here in Vancouver, you're gonna have another look at head coaching gigs from now until basically the end of time. - Well, the other two connects head coaches who had won Jack Adams Awards, also took this team to a stand like a final at some point in their tenure. That's Pat Quinn and William Mineo. So... - Generally, coach of the year awards, I have an issue with. - Oh, you do know. How is it? - Well, how it gets... - How it gets awarded, you know? Like, if you're the coach of a good team, like Paul Maurice got no love this year. Guy's an unbelievable coach, right? I mean, you got a few votes, but nothing like crazy, right? Bruce Cassidy isn't getting any love in Vegas. I probably didn't deserve it this year. That's a bad example. Pete DeBord didn't get anything out of Dallas, you know? And he like had an incredible year with the Dallas Stars. Really coached up that team. But... And this is not just an NHL thing. You even look at the NFL. It's like if you take over a team, if you're a new guy, take over a team that was really bad out of the playoffs and you come into this new program, you take them to the playoffs the next year, you're guaranteed to be at least in the running for coach of the year that very next year. It's like it's written in stone. You take a team that was not in the playoffs, bring them into the playoffs, win a division. In the playoffs, you're in the conversation for coach of the year. You win the division, you are winning coach of the year. It's pretty much guaranteed. And that's what Rick talked about. And that's how the previous kind of coaches of the year won it, right? Vigno took a team that missed the playoffs, got him to the playoffs with Luongo after the year. Pack win, his team made the playoffs the previous year in '91, but had a significant improvement in '92 to win the first division title in team history. Yeah, it's like year over year improvement is the biggest factor in winning a coach of the year award. If you like coach up a really good team through a rash of injuries, you're probably still not going to get a ton of love because that team was expected to be good anyways. Yeah, and the Canucks have their second best year to year turnaround in franchise history from last year to this year. There are times when that intersects with just so happens who it should be the coach of the year. And I think this is one of those years. It just doesn't always intersect for my liking. Despite Rick Talkett winning coach of the year, Justin and East Van wants to know, overrated, underrated, the Canucks hiring a dedicated power play coach for next season. We saw the power play spotter a little bit towards the end of the playoffs. Should they have someone really just kind of focus on that and hone in on that? Overrated. Yeah, I think especially with the mind, the person all they currently have. Now, the one thing I would say is, because Gantar isn't always there, the cities don't always travel, could one of those guys always be there? Maybe, you know what I mean? I think it's something along those lines. But given the people they have in the organization already, I don't know if they need somebody else specifically for the power play. Yeah, like to me, the biggest issue with the power play, yes, I mean, with the entries they can do things we've talked about this and everything. But like to me, it's a personnel thing as well. They need a player that can fit in there. And I mentioned it, somebody who can shoot left in the bumper spot, they can score some goals, retrieve pucks behind the net. Like a guy that can do this abode it before you add that. I think this power play would naturally turn around significantly. Look, if this power play specialist can find the real Elias Patterson, that would be very beneficial to fixing the power play. But I just, I think a large part of the power play stinking the joint out through the last couple of months of the season coincides with Patterson becoming a ghost through the back end of the season. Like you look at the way Edmonton defended the Canucks. Like even when the Canucks were able to get into the zone, they had a very difficult time doing what they normally do. And JT Miller, did he even get that downhill shot off once? - No, there's nothing serious. - Well, no, because-- - They took it away every time they even tried to get close to it. - Well, and that's the thing, if you have, if you don't have a threat from the middle of the ice, but also one of your top players is also not a threat, that means only three out of five of your players are real threats. And then Quinn wasn't really generating goals. So it's like two guys. So it's basically JT ambassador. So what teams do while they take those guys away? And it's very difficult to do anything else. - Well, it used to be the teams, like the reason the JT Miller like downhill wrist shot from the left half wall worked so well is because teams would shade over to Pedersen to try and take away one timer or shade into Bo Horvat to take away the bumper shot. But once you don't have those things to be an issue, then all of a sudden it's like, oh, so JT Miller is the biggest threat right now, like, okay, let's take that away now. And the Canucks didn't really have an adjustment with the way guys were currently going and some of the options they had available to them. So I think it goes beyond just a coach. It's just like, people do this in baseball a lot. It's like team can't hit. Oh, it's the hitting coaches fault. It's like, I don't know if it's just the hitting coaches fault. - Yeah. - Like, yeah, I don't think this is all Don Mattingly's fault so that the Blue Jays can't hit. - He knows how to hit. - Yeah. - Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you need some guidance, but yeah, I'm not at a point now where I feel like, well, this new coaching staff has already exhausted all their brains to try to figure this out. I'd still give them another shot at it here. - All right, next from Tyler, overrated, underrated. Expectations for Pedersen over the term of his eight-year contract. - So the expectations, would they be overrated like, I think people have just completely sold all their shares of Pedersen right now. So I'm gonna shade towards underrated here, but expectations, like what should the expectations of Pedersen be over the course of his eight-year deal? Like, if your expectation is like, this guy leads us to a Stanley Cup and that's the only way I'm going to be happy with him as a player, I think that's, that to me is unfair. But, okay, to me, I think there's some easy measurables, right? For the majority, like he needs to be above a point. Like to me, the bar is you have to be above a point per game. - Yeah. - When you're getting paid $11 million, you're getting paid to be just the point per game guy. You're getting paid to be above a point per game, right? Now, hey, let's-- - You gotta be like at least a 90-point player every year. - Now, if your defensive value is silky level and you're an 85-point guy, different conversation 'cause you're talking about like, okay, like, you know, you're a point per game plus, you're maybe the best defensive forward in a league. Sure, I mean, I think that's a measurable that you'll look at and say, okay, that will be acceptable, but it's essentially be above 90 points, be a top 10 score for the life of the contract, generally speaking, for the majority of that contract, are you top 10 to 15 score every single season? - Here's one thought I had, and you're kind of going down the same path. Over the course of eight years, how much of a post-season award candidate can Pedersen B over the course of the contract? Whether B, like you say, top 10 is scoring, maybe could 10 for an art loss. I don't know if he's a Rocket Richard score type player. - Yeah. - Is he a heart candidate at some point over the course of his contract? Is he a Salki candidate over the course of the next eight years? - Can you finalist for those things, right? - Yeah, in the mix. Over the next eight years for one or a number of those awards. - Well, earlier in the season, you guys were talking about how, you know, the Datsu comparison, the Salki, you know, comments. That was kind of the narrative around him at the beginning of the season. - I would look in the McDavid era, it's very hard to see a lot of guys contending for an art loss. I know Kucharov and McKinnon have also done it, but it's just, it's hard to get there. - But you could, I mean, but the thing is, I think being in the conversation is possible. Like if you're getting 11.6, like I think you can ask for him to be in the conversation one year, maybe. - You should be a top 10 score, top 15 score every single year. - Yeah. - Like that's when you're getting paid as a top 10 guy in the league, like that's kind of the expectation. He's gonna have to have more playoff success. - Of course. - You know, at the end of the day, as much of the regular season stuff is nice. Like, yeah, you need to be a better playoff player starting next year. - And that's why I'm careful with saying, well, it has to be related to team success. 'Cause yes, I mean, a player's make a big difference, but hockey's also like, you can have, you can be the best player in playoff history. - Look, but David and Drysittle are like top five all time. - Yeah, exactly. - In points per game in the playoffs, they haven't won a game yet in the conference finals. - Yeah, exactly. - So it's like, it's not just about, you know, playoff success for individual players. What you need to do is when you play in the playoffs, it'll be good. And this time around, Pedersen wasn't good enough. And he has to be better next time around in the playoffs. And the thing with Marner was like, he was in a number of different playoffs and did the same thing every single year. - Yes. - And now people are just fed up with it. Whereas with Pedersen, it's been, you know, he was the bubble playoffs where he played well, but we say the bubble playoffs don't count because it's not the same as these playoffs. And these real playoffs, he struggled. - Yes. - Is this who he's going to be? Some believe so, I don't. And next time he better be better. And I think for the life of the contract, every time they're in the playoffs, you need to be a difference maker. Like, that's just the reality. - I have a hard time writing a player off after, you know, a bad six weeks, this bad slump, two months, even, but a really bad playoff. As much as I didn't like what I saw from Pedersen, I'm not going to write off a 100-point player right away. - Absolutely. Austin and Langley, looking towards the off season, wants to know what it would be the acquisition cost for Joel Erickson that can come the off season. - How is that? - Yeah, I love it. - Is this an overrated or underrated idea to bring someone like that into the group? - Okay, well, if they went after Lindholm, then obviously Joel Erickson equates fit the same mold, right? - Yes. - Similar mold at the very least. - Yes. - So it fits, MO wise, it fits. And number one, I don't think he's available. - No. - If he were available, the cost, again, is probably prohibitive? - Yes. - 'Cause it's probably, like, it's-- - Well, it's not even a team that would be interested in probably your biggest trade asset, which is Philopronic. - No, they wouldn't. - Like, they've got Brock Faber, they've got Jared Spurgeon still, they're fine. - Yeah, they're not, that's not what they're looking for. I mean, again, like, you're not, Patterson Salary's massive anyways, like, you're not looking to move one of those guys, right? Like, you're not moving in, you're not in best through his situation. Like, well, you have to trade to get him would be first round pick, like, Harry Mackin would land her probably. - Yeah. - Just to make them listen. - Yeah. - It's just not really, we're not there. Like, if next year though-- - Time to five and a quarter for another five years, and it's a great contract. - It is, but, but if let's say next year, they get off to a bad start. - Yeah. - And they decide to, like, re-tool and rebuild it all. - Maybe then he becomes available, but we're just not there yet where Joel Erickson next. So I'd say overrated because it's not realistic right now. - For, forget about Joel Erickson next. If Carol Caprizov at any point in the next 12, I guess, between now and the next deadline, if Minnesota looks like it's not going to be a playoff team and he's a year and a bit away from unrestricted free agency. Like, that's the player I'm looking at. You're not like, no GM in his right mind is trading a two-way center in their mid to late 20s on an incredible contract, like the one Joel Erickson action on. Like, it just doesn't make any sense. - But even so, this text here says, "No more Swedes, no more Swedes." Is Mark Specter texting us? (laughing) - If you can, Holland, I don't know. - What about Russians? (laughing) - Do Russians count? Caprizov? Man, good Canadian boys. That's what you need to win in the Stanley Cup playoffs, I guess. - I tell ya. - 'Cause Sam Carrick, 'cause Sam Carrick helped the Oilers turn the tide in game six and seven, but calling him the winner or the reason the Oilers won the series would be a bit of a stretch. Anyways, next. I tell ya, from Brad, temporary Dallas fan, Brock Bester being constantly left out as part of the Canucks core conversation overrated strategy. - Okay. - I took so much flack for this. - What did, what happened? What did you do? Did you leave 'em out? - Yeah. - Did you just be something that I missed? - I squeded something. - What did you say now, reach? - After the Canucks, we're ousted. And I think it was yesterday morning. Canucks season can't be looked at as anything other than a major success. Nothing is guaranteed moving forward. A lot of UFA's from current group and a need to improve on what's here. Lots of work to do to build around core four of Hughes, Miller, Pedersen, and Demko. That was the tweet. And people are blasting me for it. I don't know, maybe I'm getting ratioed a little bit. Dan ratio is here again. - Ratio, man. - And most of the people's discrepancy isn't like, "How can you call this season was a success?" So it's only a success if you win the Stanley Cup. It wasn't that. It was, "How could you leave Brock Bester out of the core?" - Well, it's a core five, Dan. - Well, he scored 40. - Yes. - So if you score 40 goals, I can understand people putting it like, "Okay, underrated, underrated, putting him in his core." - He's got a year left on his contract. - I think it's underrated that if he scores 40, he could, like 40 goals score is a considered core guys, aren't they? - Yeah. - Like true core guys? - So right now, right now, right now, Bester's a core guy. - So I'm going on, they named Quinn Hughes captain and the rest of the core, the core leadership group is as Patrick O'Vee mentions, Thatcher, Demko, JT Miller and Lee is better. - Yes. - Not Brock Bester. - No, no, not leadership, but leadership, the core and leadership are not mutually-- - It's loosely different. - They might be different. They don't have to be the same. - Brock Bester earned his way into that category. - Right now, you can make the argument he can. He has, I think there was a big question though, is he going to be here long term, right? And I think that's always been the question with Bester, even no matter how good he was, given his age, given, I mean, now with his current situation again, it's not considered to be anything that's going to hold him back next year or whatever. So, you know, this shouldn't be an issue or whatever, but how comfortable are you paying a guy who scored 40 goals this year, eight million plus long term into his 30s? - I mean, we had this question about Brock before the injury. - Yeah. - So it's, I think it's a valid question surrounding Brock Bester. But right now, you can say he's a core player. - It's Carter Verhagi, a core guy in Florida. - I guess, yes, I guess, I guess, yes. - Yeah, and this, maybe this is the reason why this text unsigned, core four sounds better than core five. It's true, it's true, it sounds better. - The core four, core five. It's got to be something else. The fantastic five, no, it's fantastic four again. Why does four work with everything? It's the fantastic four. - Four. - Apple core. Core four. - Okay. - Mark would like to know your thoughts on the continuity of continuing to have your players, the current players, or bringing in new players. So I guess the overrated underrated of that would be just seeing what you have and keeping that going. - I think it's overrated to wanna bring back all your guys. I think full continuity is overrated in the NHL. I think turnover is underrated. - So I think this is kind of like, it's playing it safe versus taking some risks. You play it safe, you feel like you can maintain a lot of what you had this year, maybe build on it internally. You could talk yourself into that, but the reality is you're probably locking into a ceiling that we already know isn't, it's good, but it's not quite good enough to get you to cup contender status. So you've got to take some risk. So I think continuity is the safe way of playing it. So I think that's why it's overrated. It's difficult to go out and make new players, make bold moves, but there's more reward in that. So that's why it's underrated. - Yeah, so I'd say the connects were fringe cup contenders this year. - Yeah. - So this roster ceiling was a fringe cup contender, which meant if things went right, they had a chance. They went right for a large portion, right? But also kind of went wrong towards the end. Demko, of course, missing games, Besser. So they didn't get there. But they're a fringe kind of contender. I want them to become a favorite. Top tier team. And to do that, you need to raise a ceiling. And to raise a ceiling, you can't bring everybody else. You can't bring everybody back. - No, you got to raise the ceiling. - And I think that's ultimately what we'll see, at least an attempt to do that this offseason. The questions comes down to their ability to pull that off, but given how prolific they were in making trades and making additions, you feel pretty confident that they are going to be able to make most of moves or trying to make. - I think a large part of people around the hockey world feel the best four teams are in the final four, especially with Colorado not having Nachushkin. Maybe you could make the argument for Vegas, but they just, they never really hit that peak this year for whatever we think of their roster and what they've got on paper. They did not hit that peak this year. So the best four teams, arguably, are in the final four. And yeah, outside of Edmonton, I don't really see the Canucks. Like I would pick the other team in a series against the Canucks right now. - Yeah, but I mean, again, you would pick them, they have a chance, but you want to make them a favorite. - Yes, and that's the way I would view it with this current Canucks roster. And the other part of this too is like, when you maintain players, they get more expensive, you know? Dakota Joshua, great at under a million a year. Are you still, as in love with this player, if he's making three and a half million plus? - No, it's going to happen, Dan. He makes three and a half four million plus. They're going to be mowing the fact that 18 to 20 goals score is not scoring in the 60 other games he's playing. - Yes. - Like that's going to be-- - You're going to start talking about him like he's Ilya McKayah. - Yes, like 15 goals, 35 points, isn't going to be enough. - Yeah. - And it's very possible he has that type of year next year or within the life of that contract, right? And if you want that, him to sign it, you can still make the argument that's fine because of what he can bring, size and physicality and playoffs, yada, yada, if he gets better at doing those things. But there are going to be a lot of moments where those players frustrate you because the production's not going to match the salary. - Same with Nikita Zadora if he's getting, you know, five by five or whatever that contract looks like. You're going to talk about him the way you talked about Tyler Myers for a large part of his contract here in Vancouver. So that's the way I view it. You know, you've got to be bold and try to find more bargain deals in order to keep this thing going and continue to build it. All right, that's going to do it for overrated underrated, wish we had more time, but we do not. Do we still got to do the goalhorn? I guess we can do a quick goalhorn here. On camera. We do have our first goal of the conference finals and it goes to the Florida Panthers, Matthew Kuchuk with his fifth of the postseason, getting on the board, end of one, the Panthers lead the Rangers one nothing in game one at MSG. The goalhorn brought to you by Rewind. Beerco, find their big West Coast IPA at a liquor store near you and celebrate big plays in a big way. Tomorrow's going to be a big day as... (laughing) - Wow, that's cheesy, man. That's great. That has a lot of tripping and cheese, man. - There it is. - Dropping a mozzarella. - Yes. - The mozzarella. Tomorrow is a locker clean out day for the Vancouver Canucks end of season of veils. They'll start at 11 a.m. We'll have it all here on Sports at 650 for you to listen live on. Jamie Dodd, Canucks Talk will have it. So, if you want to hear from the players, here's some exclusive interviews. Sports at 650, your home of the Canucks. The place to be in here on Canucks Central. We are going to have an exclusive interview with management, Patrick Alving. Maybe Jim Rutherford will see what happens as it gets closer to tomorrow. For producers, Eddie and Ben, my co-host, Sat, I'm Dan. You've been listening to Canucks Central on Sports at 650.
