(upbeat music) - Hey everybody, just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you a little more about something awesome, Audible. - Oh, Audible.com, or that beautiful app. - Yeah, bemodded all the time and so should you be because everybody wants to listen to good stuff and they have all the good stuff. Listening to Audible helps your imagination to soar. You can listen to everything. They have every genre you can want on there, motivation, expert advice, stories, anything. There's more to imagine when you listen and as an Audible member, you can choose one title a month to keep from the entire catalog. That includes latest bestsellers, new releases, everything. What I'm listening to right now, what I suggest you check out is called Dead Wrong. It's the story of the investigation of the Biggie Smalls murder. So, notorious B.I.G., all the coverups, the lawsuits, the dirty police stuff that's going on, all of it's there, new members. You can try Audible free for 30 days. 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Get Bluehost Cloud today by visiting Bluehost.com. That's Bluehost.com. - You can host the best backyard barbecue. When you find a professional on Angie to make your backyard the best around. Connect with skilled professionals to get all your home projects done well. Inside to outside, repairs to renovations. Get started on the Angie app or visit Angie.com today. You can do this when you Angie that. - This week in Horn Lake, Mississippi, explosions ring out in the night leaving a house destroyed and a woman horribly killed. Rolled an accident, investigators then uncover a heartless plot and even more planned murders. Welcome to Small Town Murder. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Hello everybody and welcome back to Small Town Murder. - Yay! - Oh yeah, indeed Jimmy. Yeah, indeed. My name is James Petrogallo, I'm here with my co-host. - I'm Jimmy Wissman. - Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another absolutely crazy episode of Small Town Murder. Hope you enjoyed last week in Michigan. We had, how two serial killer brothers, a chimpanzee. That was a, I had messages going. Did you make that up? Like, that's how crazy that story was. It sounded like someone made it up. - And never heard of it. - And never heard of it. If you saw a movie of that story, you'd go, that's ridiculous, what a ridiculous story. That's how crazy that was. And this week, crazy also. We'll get to that. Before we do, head over to ShutUp and givememurder.com is where you want to be. - Why would they do that? - For tickets to live shows. - Oh! - Especially Durham, North Carolina. May 31st, you are up next. Still a few tickets left. - All sold out. It's so close. - Almost sold out, next night Nashville is sold out. So Durham, let's clean it up and get in there. - That's finished. - That'll be a good time. And also get your tickets for later in the year 'cause a lot of dates are already sold out. Places like Phoenix are sold out. You know, they're selling out fast. So get in there, we open up some new ones for Kansas City. So Kansas City gets your tickets right now. Do that. Also get your merch there too. There's new merch up, murder bird shirt, all sorts of stuff there. So get in there for that. Shut up and give me murder.com. Patreon.com/crimeinsports is where you get all of your bonus material. - Hell yeah. - We got tons of stuff. And all it costs, five bucks a month. It's five. - That's it. - A cup of coffee, what's what? Honestly, things are more than, and everything's more than five dollars an hour. - Yeah. - So you know, why not? - Five dollars. - Let's do it. - We can buy for five dollars now. - A cup of coffee is what you buy. - That's about it. - Or hundreds of back episodes of this show that you've never heard before of bonus stuff and new bonus stuff every other week. One crime in sports, one small town murder of which you get all of. So you get all of it. - Oh boy. - I'll tell you what this week, which you're gonna get for crime in sports bonus, which you have access to. We're gonna talk about the OJ trial. OJ Simpson, just the trial. We've talked about other things. - How'd it happen? - 'Cause people always go, they had DNA. I don't understand how he got off. Were they jury, were they brain damaged? These people are what? No, I've watched all 496 parts of this trial on YouTube. And that's not an exaggeration either. That's how many parts there are. And I'll tell you exactly what happened because it's the perfect storm and it unfolded this way and it would have never happened again. So it's wild stuff. Then for small town murder, we are gonna go, this will be fun. We're gonna go very specific inside Ed Gaines house. Let's do a house tour. Let's find out how Ed Gaines lives his everyday life, lived and what's in there, what's he got in store for us, what's in weird jars and coffee cans and stuff all around. We'll find out all about that. patreon.com/crimeinsports and you get a shout out at the end of the show too. Jimmy Wilmester, name up for you. So don't worry about that. - I love that. - That said, I think it's time. Oh, before we get to that, listen to our other two shows. Crime and sports, which is hilarious and you don't have to like sports to listen to it. And then also your stupid opinions, which is the funniest damn hour in podcasting. So get in there and check that out. That said disclaimer, it's a comedy show everybody. - It is. - We're comedians. People are gonna die and there will be jokes. But the thing is, is how you mix those two things and we do it tastefully is how we do it. It's something you like to say. Yeah, we go out of our way not to make fun of the victims, one of the victims families. - Why? - Because we're assholes. - Yeah, bud. - But we're not scumbags. - There's the deal. - There you go. And that's the spirit of the whole show. And yeah, so it might not be as bad as you think it is. If you go, oh God, we're really doing making jokes while people are being beheaded. No, that's not when we're making jokes. We're making jokes when someone's sitting there with a beheaded body afterwards going, I can get away with this. This is gonna be fine. - Nobody's gonna know. - That's ridiculous. That's when we're making jokes. So that said, I think it's time everybody. Let's do this. Oh, by the way, yeah, if you think true crime and comedy should never go together, you might not like it. - Get outta here. - But you might. But probably take a hike. - Give it a try. - Yeah. - Give it a try. For the rest of us that wanna hear an insane story and have a good time somehow intermixing those together. - Sure. - Dancing tastefully, I think it's time. Let's all shout, let's deep breaths. And let's all shout. ♪ Shut up and give me murder ♪ ♪ Murder ♪ Let's do this, everybody. What did he say? Let's go on a trip, shall we? - We shall. - We shall. We are going to Horn Lake, Mississippi. H-O-R-N, Horn Lake, Mississippi, Lake with horns in it. This is in the severe northwestern part of Mississippi. This is, it's a suburb of Memphis, is really what it is. - Is that right? - Yeah, it's one of those. - Almost Tennessee. - Almost, it's like in Kentucky, there's suburbs of Cincinnati. It's that sort of deal here. Yeah, it's about 25 minutes to Memphis, and it's about five and a half hours down to Biloxi, which is our last Mississippi episode. It's been a while since episode 438, an officer in three maniacs was the name of that one. - Yeah. - And like always, Mississippi delivers the crazy also, they do. - Yeah. - We say that about... - It's burning too. - Most states, but they really do. Mississippi brings it, West Virginia brings it, Ohio brings it, Pennsylvania brings it hard. - I panicked when I was dating a girl and told her that I was in the service when they asked me where I panicked and said Biloxi. - Yeah, he wasn't in the service by the way. - Never was. - That's the funny part here. So this is in Desoto County. - Yeah. - It is 'cause the explorer Desoto came through here back in the day. - Oh, is that? - Yeah. - Huh, I wonder if he's the guy for the reason for the name of the Desoto cars. - Probably not. He's a Spanish explorer that came in like the 1600s. I don't think yet. - If he had a car, it would have made it easier. - Yeah, but he had shit that he had stuff that was horses involved, so maybe I'm not sure. But it's probably just some guy named Bob Desoto that put out the Desoto. The area code is 662 motto here is doorway to Mississippi. - This is it, huh? - Sweep off the front porch. - This is where you get in. - Come on in. - This is where you wipe your feet on the mat. - That's it. This is where the doorbell is. So a little bit of history. Corn Lake received its name from an Oxbow Lake, which was three miles west, which was a former riverbed of the Mississippi River. The river changed course in the late 18th century. That must have pissed the people off who were living on it and like, where the fuck did it ever go? Shit. - It changed it on its own like during a storm or something. - Yeah, back then, they could change the course of the Mississippi. I don't know if we could pro. - As far as I'm-- - I mean, we could dig enough to do it. - As far as I know, the Chicago River is the only one they've ever done it with. - Yeah, the Mississippi's goddamn huge too. - That'd be an undertaking. - It's a beast. - Yeah, they call it the mighty one. - Yeah, so I guess this, when the Mississippi changed course, it left a stranded body of water just sitting there. It's now a lake. It used to be part of the river. - Wow. - It looked like a cow horn and became known as Horn Lake. - Sure, 'cause they're probably like a leg of the river and now it's not. - Yep, and they think that this happened basically in like 1765 between 1765 and 1795 is when the river changed. - Sometime in that 30 years. - In that 30 years, they don't fucking know. The records aren't good. - Wouldn't you wanna know exactly when that happened? - You would imagine they would have records, but people were just writing shit down Willie Nilly's. You know, in this last century, this happened and then they were like, "Well, when?" - Somebody dropped that diary in the river. - Yeah, this is, they basically found this storm using old maps and they were like, "Well, the river's here before 1765 and all the maps have just a lake here after 1795." So, sometime in there, we think they would have noted river changed course, wrote that down somewhere. - Yeah, not a river any longer. It's just standing still. - Weird, used to be in a river now, it's dry land. - Yeah, lots of mosquitoes now. - Yeah, well that's gonna happen, yeah. Settlers that moved into the area cleared the wilderness and started cultivating just shit to eat, subsistence living stuff for farming. Then cotton became the major cash crop, as we know. The railroad ended up coming in and that, you know, that popped the area pretty good here. Once the railroad comes in, then people wanna be here. I guess Freightmarktorn Lake intended for the families who lived in the region were dropped off like just, they would have, they didn't have like a post office, they just dropped it off in the road, on Goodman Road. Few ordered stuff, they just drop off everybody's shit in the road in a pile. - Just leave it there. - Like all your Amazon packages with, like an apartment building basically in a city, like you have to go into the mail room and it's a giant pile of Amazon packages to sift through. They used to just dump the shit in the road, which is pretty goddamn amazing. Eventually, they built stores and a stock yard and cotton gins and blacksmith and all that stuff there. The first post office opened in 1853. - Wow. - So that's when it became official. There are several historic sites here. One is the Circle G Ranch, which was owned by Elvis, that's why it's a big deal. It's known as the like the Graceland honeymoon cabin, basically. - Oh. - Yeah, it's his involvement, he bought it in 1967. He was on a trip to the country to buy horses. - And he found this ranch. He just came across the ranch, it was named Twinkle Town Farm and he just liked it and it had a big giant white cross on it, which I hope was not on fire, but it wasn't. - So soaked in kerosene. - So soaked in kerosene. So he saw that and he caught his attention. He bought the property for $437,000 back then, which is like four million bucks now. - Sure. - A good chunk. He wanted to name the ranch Circle G, but he tried to register it under that and discovered another ranch already. Use that name. - Yeah, to circle any letter is already done, man. - Yep, so he registered under it the Flying Circle G Ranch. - Yeah. - That's what he's doing right here. So he then purchased a bunch of trailers so that his friends could stay on the ranch with him. He just made it like a party spot, basically. Bought a bunch of trailers, he brought a bunch of vehicles and agricultural equipment, a bunch of cattle and-- - Wow, he really invested. - Yeah, he built a big fence around the place. I mean, he didn't, he paid people too. And then it became his country retreat, basically. - Fascinating. - And when he married Priscilla Presley when she was a child in May of 1967, - Yeah. - They spent a few days in Palm Springs and then came home to the ranch on May 4th. And ever since then, it's been known as Elvis's Honeymoon Cottage. - So gross. - Yep. - Sorry, bangs kids. - This is where he bangs kids and rides horses. I wonder if he uses a trailer just to make it seem-- - Elvis's Neverland. - Ugh, gross. Well, let's hope the same things weren't going on in Neverland. Show me your butthole. I hope that wasn't saying that to her. At least he wouldn't have sounded like that, so that's good. - Look at the cutouts of me. - Oh man, he liked to fool around on the farm equipment and all that kind of shit, yeah. Not fool around, he liked it right around. - He liked to fuck around and act like a rancher, yeah. - Let me hear, let me finger you while I ranch. - Fing you on this deer. - He sold the ranch in 1969. So he only had it for two years. - He had it for two years and there's still talent in it. - Everywhere Elvis took a shit though, they do that. Elvis, it's like George Washington and Elvis. Anything they did, there's a sign and a plaque and like we all have to remember it. So-- - His DNA is probably still there somewhere. - Sure, it's somewhere, at least in the floorboards. - Yeah. - Sure, he's dropped a few loads on the ground. So there's also the octagonal house, which-- - Okay, another one of these. - Another one of these, which we thought like, what is that and then people, once we've done that, there's so-- - Hundreds of them. - Evidently every town in America has octagonal houses and we just somehow have never run into one, like idiots in our, you know, 80 years between us. So built in 1844, as for some doctor as a gift to his bride, it's a weird three level, eight-sided house. - Three levels. - Three levels, eight-sided. Located on Horn Lake Road, just south of Nail Road. And I guess it's a, people come and look at the fucking place, which is different. - Stupid. - So reviews of this town, here we go, five stars. Okay, Horn Lake is a nice place to live. However, a whole foods grocery is needed. Well, it's Northwestern Mississippi. - I need almond milk. - Yeah, it's, you know what? They're like pork and you're like almond milk. - Pork, bellies, almond milk. Back bacon, almond milk. - Have you heard of kale? - Pork? It's not working, I don't think. - No, it's silk. - Also, it appears that there are too many warehouses going up. Well, yeah, that's everywhere. So here's four stars. I moved to Horn Lake my ninth grade year. This sounds like it's gonna be a memoir. - Who says it like that? - It's the first line of a memoir. I moved to Horn Lake my ninth grade year. I've been here since I was 14. I'm currently 24 years old and so far, I haven't had any problems living here. It's a fairly small town and everything's a great commute. A great commute makes it awesome. - A great commute. - This is an old timey person. This is like the Civil War soldier who's been transported into modern times. - Mom, I'm going to set out on my great commute. - There's a great commute I'll see everyone in the spring. - I'm going to Target. - Are the oxen, are the oxen saddled? Excellent. Walmart, which is fairly new, Kroger Hospital, shopping malls, there's a Walmart of Kroger Hospital, not in the hospital, just hospital, shopping malls, et cetera. It is a good location thus far. You've been there for 10 years, it's not a thus far. - We need thus far, you're thriving, man. - Thus far on my great commute. - Who temporarily survives for 10 years? - And I do like my neighborhood. We stay in a cove, which I'll tell you what a cove is in a minute here, which eliminates traffic a lot. And my child can go outside and play without a big risk of traffic flow. - Okay. - I don't know how old the kid is, you're 24, the kid's running around, good luck. Now a cove is a cul-de-sac, by the way. - Yeah. - In Mississippi talk. - Okay. - In the Ole Miss. - That's what they call a cove down there. Yeah, I read that in the newspaper. So here we go, four stars. Memphis is forever my first love. Oh, wonderful. - Okay. - I love the highest murder rate in the country. That place is terrific. If you've seen the first 48, you know, stay away from Memphis and Tulsa. Just stay the fuck away, they're both terrifying. - Bad places. - Bad places. You will be murdered. It's full of love and pride. The city of Memphis is like no other. You would have to be from here to really know the feeling. Okay, but that's not, you're reviewing this town. Not the city that's 25 minutes away from here. - Boy, do you long for Memphis. - Wow, just I love Memphis. Three stars in Horn Lake, not a lot of sense of quote, community in quotes for some reason. You didn't need to put that in quotes. Not a lot of sense of community, we get it. Two stars, the crime in the city of Memphis has never been classified with a low level. Murders in violence are what all Memphians, not even Memphians, Memphians, are used to and try to stay clear of. With race wars across America, cities have started to divide. What are you talking about? - What are you writing a fiction novel now? - What is going on here? Yes, you gotta meet up with, I moved to Horn Lake in my ninth grade year and get you two together to write some kind of dystopian post-apocalyptic memoir. - What is this fucking escape from LA? - It happened in my ninth grade year. - The race wars broke out. - Memphis, however, has not. The crime rate has dropped and police have even talked to the people of the city to decrease the violence and increase the support, love, and connection throughout different communities. Again, you're reviewing a small town near here and you're talking about Memphis and, wow, okay. People in this town, 26,623. And it's grown dramatically lately, too. It's really spiked up because it's a suburb, so that happens. Way more females than males, 53% female. And median age is lower than normal. It's about 33 and a half, about four years under the average. Less people married here. More people married three times the married, single with children rate here also. - Wow. - So yeah, people will be, it's a horny town. Good for you everybody. - No shit. - Awesome, sounds good. - Race of the... - And difficult to get along with, definitely for long periods of time. - Apparently, yeah. Race of this town, 49.5% white, 41.3% black, 0.8% Asian, 6.1% Hispanic. So there's that. Religion, 55% of the people here are religious, so just, you know, to be expected, it's a little high. - Oh, it is. - And we're not gonna be surprised here. 32.7% of the people here are Baptists. As we know, Baptists are the Catholics of the South. - Jesus. - Dominating, they're religious. Dominating the western, or the southern bracket of the religion, final four here. So, the unemployment rate here is about 5.3, which is slightly higher than the national average. It's about four right now. Median household income here is a little lower than the national average. It's 54,783, it's about $15,000 low. Yep, median home cost here, though the cost of living, if 100 is average, here it's 92. So pretty close, but the housing is way low. Median home cost here, $171,300. So, pretty affordable compared to a lot of places. So, if we've convinced you, you want all the barbecue of Memphis without all the gunplay. We have for you, without being on the first 48, the Horn Lake, Mississippi real estate report. (upbeat music) Your average two-bedroom rental here goes for $1,070, which is a couple hundred below the national average. Here's a two-bedroom, two-bath 1,049 square foot house, a little house. - Little guy, yeah. - There's only like one picture of the inside, which is frightening, and there's a big four post bed in the living room. So, I don't know what's happening in this house at all. I don't understand it. - Bedroom's uninhabitable. - Either that or they were trying to take it out of the place and realize nothing would fit through the door and they just left it there. I don't know what's going on here, but. - I'm gonna take it apart, Lou, fuck that. - It doesn't look great, $150,000 for that. Very little plot of land, too. Here's a four-bedroom, three-bath, 2,068 square foot. This is your, it's brick on the outside, kind of like the faux brick stuck to your-- - Oh, yeah. - The brick face, not made of bricks. - Yeah. - One of those facade, there you go. Standard, kind of, nice house. It's boring, very boring. It says, though, "Nestled in a quiet neighborhood, "it offers harmonious fusion of style." There's no, it's just a house. It's the most basic plane fucking house you're gonna find. There's no harmonious shit, it's just fine. - Nothing welded together. - And it says, "Perfect for the pickiest buyer." So are you the pickiest buyer? You might want to get here. - Evidently. - It's a six-bedroom lake, and here's a five-bedroom four-bath, 2,928 square foot. - There we go. - On 1.1 acres, too. - Shit, yeah. - Nice house, nice acreage. It is somebody's grandma who went to church six days a week lived here. - Really? - It's just all religious stuff. - Oh. - Yeah, but like old lady religious stuff. I'm like, "Doyellies" and shit, you know what I mean? Like, Jesus said this on a doily, you know? Very old, this person who lived here so old that in the bedroom, there's the bed with all the pillows and the nice pillowcase and all that kind of stuff. Next to the bed is a goddamn china cabinet. Nobody under 80 has a china cabinet in their bedroom, I don't think, right? - Especially in their bedroom. - No, I've never seen that before. That house is $429,500 there. - Very affordable. - Not bad for what you get there. It's actually not terrible. Did I say how much the second house was? I don't think I did, please. - It was $3.35. - Oh, we didn't say that. $3.35 for that second house. So, things to do here, here we go, the Magnolia Fest. - Oh, yeah. - Probably about 6,000 of those in the South, I think. - Right, yeah. - Magnolia Fest. - Yeah, from the fucking South Carolina, all the way to the Miss South. - All the way down through the Gulf there. Yeah, it features carnival rides, games, erodeo, arts and crafts. It's the festival that every Hallmark movie, where the lady who moved there 'cause she was hurt and opened a cupcake shop, finally, she's been cold to that guy, the local guy who owns his own little business and he does okay. She's been kind of cold to him, but this is the night where she comes here and he wins her like a teddy bear and she gets some cotton candy and everything kind of comes together and once the fucking Ferris wheels get stuck up there, they're making out with a view of the city when the fireworks start. We know that fucking movie. That's the movie. - That's my Bridget Fonda. - And her bid for a comeback. So they say the DeSoto County City of Horn Lake, again this year, holding the Magnolia Festival, they say there's a rodeo, which included cowboys from all over the South who travel to attend and participate. Many of them seasoned riders, I hope all of them are. It's a rodeo. - Really fucking better be. - And it's I otherwise. - Yeah, literally, this is your first rodeo, try somewhere else. - No shit, that's literally an idiom. It's not my first rodeo. I'm not a moron is what that means. - You don't wanna do that. - No, it's not only a hobby, but in some cases, a business on the national circuit. Entrance paid a fee to ride the bulls and Broncos, in some cases $1,000 plus to get a chance at winning. - Wow, that's a gamble. - Man, you are, yeah, this is like, this is like fan duel for people who wanna be kicked in the head with a horse. - That's the point, you're gonna lose a grand and lose your teeth, like what the fuck? What a gamble. - What a gamble, man. They talk about last year's, prior to the first event of the evening, a children scavenger hunt in the arena allowed kids 10 years old and under to search for an unknown item that held a $20 bill. It didn't take long for a young boy to find it, grinning with glee at the reward of his effort and showing the audience the $20. - Put bullshit all over it. - Wow, just covered in, yeah, it's gonna cost way more than that for new shoes. 'Cause he's been traipsing around and cow shit for the last fucking hour trying to find it. - Digging in it. - Oh my God, they say they had a, after that, they had the US flag carried by a young cowboy on horseback. - Right. - He stopped midfield for the national anthem as the audience of spectators and cowboys all rose to their feet. As the national flag exited the arena, the announcer introduced the first event of the evening, Bronco busting, and the first cowboy, 28 year old Paxton Ray of Alabama, of Kalera, Alabama, which we did an episode on, riding pal. He said, quote, yeah, I'm a full time electrician in Kalera, but rodeo was my passion. - I'm gonna break my back tonight. - I'm gonna forget everything I know about circuits and voltage and all that shit. So when I learned about the Horn Lake event, that was the first time a rodeo was happening here. I knew I had to be a part of it, so here I am. - Wow. - Here you are, mister, there you go. I guess he said he'd only been riding eight months, so. - No, he's about to die. - He lasted eight seconds on pal, and then was awesome. - Oh, that's not bad. - That's what he wasn't. - He earned him 70 points for whatever that's worth. - Yeah. - The guy said, they asked him if he liked bulls, and he said, like riding bulls. I like the horses that prefer them to getting stomped on by a 1,500 pound bull. - Yeah, and they've got a longer ride. Like the, the. - Yeah, a buck of a horse is a much bigger, a much bigger teeter car. Then a bull is just a fucking whip. - It's up and down, it's a whiplash machine. That's all those fucking things are. It's hard on your neck. So the bands that they have here, the flying oysters will be there. - Oh, the flying O. - The flying on a Thursday. So you know they're in demand when they're playing the rodeo festival on a Thursday, and then on Friday, you know this band is hard to come by. The Free Band. - Oh. - We don't, does that mean you just don't charge? We'll show up with our instruments and shit. - I mean, you're never getting paid for this if that's what you call yourself. - The Free Band, crime rate in this town, we are interested in here, property crime right at average. So right there, which is surprising. I don't know. Seems like it's a lot of coves going on here, all sorts of, doesn't make sense. And then violent crime, murder a robbery, and of course assault here, the Mount Rushmore of crime is about 1/3 of the national average. That's way low. So it makes no sense. - Well, what's going on here? I don't know. - So far from Memphis. - Kids are vandalizing your car or some shit maybe. That's it, but they won't hurt you if you catch them. I don't know. Either way, that said, let's talk about some murder, shall we? - Let's do it. - Let's talk about this crazy stuff. Before we get into the murder, I also wanna say stick around to the end of the episode because we are going to give an update on one of just the sickest people we've ever had as a small town murder, criminal murder, who may be on a street near you very, very soon. Put it that way. It's a little disturbing. And we got that for you at the end of the show. - Careful what strangers you interact with. - No shit, a nice update here. So, okay, here we go. Let's talk about some murder. December 19th, 1994. Okay, loud explosive bangs ring out in the early morning hours. - Several. - Several, a couple. And we're talking five o'clock in the morning. Five 30 in the morning-ish. - I like the air whistle telling everybody it's time to wake up. - Nope, it's not the church bell, it's none of that shit. It is, it's not the cotton bell and nothing. So, it's December, so that's very dark out at five 30 in the morning in December. So, it feels like the middle of the night. The whole neighborhood's, holy shit, what the fuck is that? And from next door comes Linda Liedem, L-E-E-D-O-M. She at this point is 40 years old and she's the next door neighbor. She runs over there, the fire department is called by several different neighbors. The fireman said we received the call at 657 and the fire was coming through the roof when we arrived at 601. - It's over. - So, that is an aggressively fast fire. Hey everybody, just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you about the safest sponsor there is, Simply Safe! They're the best at home security and let me tell you something. You listen to small town murder, you know what can happen. 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And you're not fighting that. - No, right after the-- - Everything's on fire. - Right after the explosions, they called the fire department and, I mean, there was four minutes the thing is engulfed, which is a very fast moving fire. - That's a dry house. - That's not a smolder there, yeah, that's there. Inside the house, they find one person in the house. And it is a woman here. She is 47 years old. She is Lula and Welch Young. And Welch is her maiden name, she's married and she keeps, she does Welch Young later on. So Lula Welch Young here. She is found dead inside the house. - Oh no. - She has died of smoke inhalation and we'll talk about her wounds a little later. She's found between the foot of her bed and the wall. Like she was, they said, quote, as if she was trying to get out. That's what the firefighter said when they found her. She was found unconscious but alive. She was pulled out by firefighters with second, first and second degree burns on her chest and stomach and died of smoke inhalation before the ambulance even could arrive. - Damn it. - So this woman, yeah, horrible. One of the reporters said she died from breathing in the smoke. I can't imagine the horrors she went through in her last moments of life. Which, yeah, this is bad. You know what it is and it's awful. - It's the worst, yeah. - It's when you see that scene in a movie where they're trapped in a room with flames. - And you got that panic. - It's the panic. It's the panic of water rising in a fucking boat, you know, in the Titanic. You know, the couple laying in the bed, waiting for the water to come. It's that same kind of thing. - Fuckin' anxieties, horrific. - It's horrible. They said in autopsy been requested anyway, just in case. So right away, just from the initial look-through, the cops, the firemen and arson investigators are trying to determine a source of the fire. And they say, quote, this is the fire investigator. As far as we have been able to determine, the fire probably began from a faulty extension cord. - Oh no. - They found a frayed extension cord on a space heater that was on. - Why is it always a goddamn space heater? - It seems like if you buy a space heater, it's 50/50, it's gonna kill you, right? - Yeah, and you're required to plug that into a really shitty outlet? - Well, your worst extension cord and your most overloaded outlet is what it is. - Not plugged into the wall. But for Christ's sake, you can't. - An extension cord plugged into a splitter, plugged into like a six-way- - Some sort of power strip that's fucked up. - And that's fucked up and has like your TV and all your stuff and lamps and like, you know, any other high-voltage things you might have has plugged into that. And then all of that goes into one plug in the wall. It's not even a grounded one. It's one of the two prongers. So perfect. That's the only, I believe that's code for a space heater, right? - It says it in the instruction manual. - Yeah, yeah. - You plug it into the wall that will arrest you. - I've seen the diagram of it. It shows many, many plots going into one extension cord, going into an ancient outlet, I believe. - So, yeah, that's horrible, man. Her son, her son's name is Mike. He said the term we got that they told the family was that the house literally exploded. - Geez, no, thank you. - Your mom's house exploded, is it tough? - From a freight extension cord, if that's true. I'm throwing out all my extension cords. - We'll find out if that will catch fire and other things that are explodable will then explode. That's the problem is if that catches something else. He said it literally exploded. So I was trying to figure out how the house could blow up. Nothing in the house was gas, so how could the house explode? She was scared of fire, that was her biggest fear. - Oh, Jesus, and she knew it was gonna happen? - Which she is a brave lady as we'll find out, and a fucking tough lady we're gonna find out in her life here. Absolute fucking, she's a savage in terms of toughness. She is really-- - And she knew, she knew James. - She knew, what someone in the neighborhood said, everybody knew, everybody that knew Ms. Young thought she was a good person. People were really, really sad that she had died. A good neighbor, literally gone. Well, yeah, in the ground now. - You could just say gone, you don't have to say literally. - Literally gone, we get it. She's not here anymore. Now, Linda Lietam, who was the fireman found crying in the front yard, and while they were doing this, she just stayed in the front and was staying out the whole time. She is Lula's best friend. - Yeah, neighbor, of course, sure. - Over 15 years, they've been best friends, like sisters. So a few days later, Linda writes a little editorial in the local paper saying, "I lost a sister, "companion, best friend, and confidant. "All was lost due to an accident "that could have been preventable but wasn't." - Yeah. - So, yeah. Now, relatives said that this is the biggest shame because Lula had pretty aggressive cancer a few years back. - Oh, yeah. - As we'll talk about, we'll go through. She got a terminal diagnosis, and then a few months before this fire was just declared cancer-free. - What? - She beat her cancer, and at least it went into remission for now. - Unbelievable. - So they were saying, at the time, they were saying, "Yeah, I mean, she was in remission, "but maybe it would have come back." And her relatives were trying to say, "Maybe this was better this way, "that she didn't suffer through a long cancer." But it's like, "Jesus, she could have lived "another 20 years for Christ's sake." They were at the same time. - She burned to death, you guys. - Yeah, she's saying. - That's worse. Dying in a... - What? - You really hate somebody. You see someone on the road. Do the shittiest fucking maneuver possible and cut you off and almost fucking cause an accident with three other people. "Dying in a fire, motherfucker!" - Out the window, 'cause that's the worst thing you could think of. - You don't stream die of lung cancer, are you saying? - No. - Die painfully on fire. - And terrified, by the way. - As you watch the blood come through your skin, dying of fire, motherfucker, watch the flames creep toward you as you sit in terror and huddle in the corner of the room with your children. That's what it's about. Yeah, that's fucking crazy. - Well, your skin blisters and the life comes out of those blisters, you bastard. - But they were like, oh, they had watched her suffer for years, so they were like, I don't know. I mean, I think they were just trying to find... - Yeah, they're trying to close her, yeah. - Any kind of closure. A little bit about Lula here. She grew up in Arkansas and Mississippi. Her family moved around a lot, from what I understand here. It moved around quite a bit. Her parents' names were Oscar and Flora. Oscar's gonna die in 1990. We'll talk about, and Flora will live a long time. We'll talk about that, too. She lived on 2019, Flora. - Jesus. - So she lived, I think she was in her 90s when she died, so. - 30 years without Oscar. - Yeah, oh, absolutely. That extended her life. Oscar might've been a pain in the ass, we don't know. That happens a lot of these old ladies. They lose a husband. Both my grandmothers did that. - Yeah, that's a good point. It's rare that others died early. Another 30 years they went on, just fine. Had a whole other life after that. - It's rare that a guy outlives his one and only for 30 years, women do it all the time. - I think part of it was. Back then, all these guys were in wars. I think that, who knows what the shit kind of chemicals they were exposed to? Like both my grandfathers were World War II. Imagine the horrible things. - Do you not allege alone, it's crazy. - Yeah, what was going on. So I feel like that's part of it also. They all died early. - Well, there's something right now that exists that we're exposed to. - Oh yeah. - That in 20 years they're gonna say, it's gonna lead to the conclusion that we all had cancer. - I'm sure. - Cancer's are on the rise in young people. And it's probably from these goddamn computers. We don't know. - Yeah, that was the oldest thing you've ever said. Cancer's on the rise among the young people. And I think it's 'cause of these damn computers. That's what's going on. They put them in the pockets right next to the penises and what do you expect's gonna happen? - Of course they're gonna have cancer. Check the rates of penile cancer. They threw the roof, I'm sure of it. - That's to do with all the wifi, it's got to. - This weafy, I don't know what they even want with this. But that's what all the kids want. Weafy, weafy, I don't even know what that is. - What's the chemical that makes this weafy happen? - I don't know where it is. I said I don't have weafy, is it? Can I get a bottle of it? This is like a two liter of weafy. - It's gotta be fucking patented by DuPont, right? - I think it's bad, I think it's bad and it hurts us. It's all I'm gonna say. - It's patented by Roundup. - That's what it was, it's Monsanto makes weafy. And I know they do, it's poison. GMO weafy is a problem. - Blackfish weafy. - Weafy. So the Lula, back to her here, growing up with Oscar and Flora, traveling around Arkansas and Mississippi. She has two brothers and a sister, her brothers are Randy and Bobby, which sound like guys from Arkansas and Mississippi. - Sure do, yeah. - Randy and Bobby Welch, you know? That's great. And Nettie is her sister. - Oh, that's another, yeah. - Nettie. - That's another cowgirl name. - Absolutely. Lula married her high school sweetheart. So she's born in 1947 in the mid 60s. She marries her high school sweetheart. Just at the time she's the, that's the typical. - She's doing it. - She's doing a John Cougar melon camp song all over again. Problem is, well they'll have two kids, which are good. They have Stacy, who's the daughter. She's the younger of the two. And Michael, who we talked about before, it's the son, he's the older child. Problem is they're gonna break up, though. The, yeah, Lula and her husband here are gonna break up. And she, he's gonna kind of take off and leave her as a single mom with two kids here. - Oh, that'll boy. - In the late 80s, or the late 70s, I'm sorry. Like 1978, they break up. 1981-ish, they get a divorce. So, you know, she's gotta figure out what to do here. She's gotta get her career going and all this kind of thing. She works for a little while as a secretary on the oncology floor of a hospital. - Oh. - Which, whoof, man, that is. - She's watching that. - People who can do that, man, hats off to you. 'Cause that is. - Good, you know what? That might be why she was able to beat cancer. - Maybe. - Because the one that's seen people do it. - She's seen it. She knows what it is. - She knows what it is. - Maybe, yeah. Some people that would make them 10 times more scared and some people that would make them a little braver 'cause it's not a, you know, this black cloud mystery. - Right. - They see it a little bit. - She's seen people with terminal diagnosis. So she's, yeah. - And she's seen them die and she's seen them live. - Yeah, she's seen it. - Probably, sure. - So she's seen it all here, so, but I mean, anybody that can do that, that would, I'm bad with like, I'm pretty empathetic when it comes to shit. Like, if I had to work in an oncology floor at a hospital four days, I would kill myself afterwards, probably. I wouldn't be able, it would make me so fucking depressed. - I think you'd make it to your first page. - I don't think I would, no. I don't think I would, dude. I really don't. One of the-- - Yeah, I don't know, man. - There's a nest in my porch, a bird's nest. And every year, for the last three years, birds of laid eggs in the nest, I show 'em to you. I send you pictures, I get all excited. And then at some point, the eggs fall out or the birds just abandon the eggs and they never hatch and that's that. This is happening every year. This year, I finally have these fucking eggs, right? And the bird keeps on 'em and even when we go outside, the bird will sit on 'em and look at us like, "Don't come here anymore." - Oh, that's great. - It's just this little sparrow. So finally, eggs hatched and one of 'em's adorable and you look at it and it puts its little mouth up and tries to eat worms and shit. They're cute. One of them fell out of the nest. - Oh, no. - One of them fell out of the nest. So there was two, now there's only one. And somehow, we couldn't find the little bird body 'cause we were like, "Where'd it go?" But Oscar found it, my dog, because he's a bird dog. And he came in the house with a look on his face, like, "I'm not holding anything in my mouth, I shouldn't have." - No, I don't wanna lick you right now. - And he had a baby bird corpse in his mouth. - Oh, God, damn it. - And I gotta tell ya, I'm sad about it. Like, I feel terrible. It's a fucking, it's a house sparrow on my porch. Like, there's, if you go outside my house, there's what, eight million birds? - Yeah. - I'm just like, "Oh, that poor little..." I have thought about that bird way more than I probably should. So I could not deal with human beings in a cancer war. - Maybe. Birds are awesome though. I, yeah. - Yeah. - I like them, I'm happy they're there. - I just like the little ones. The ones that seem like vulnerable. I got a hummingbird when I water my water. - Wow, they're adorable. - It flies up the stream of my nozzle, I guess. And like, it bades in the fucking mist, James. And I love this, I see it every morning, and it tickles me like, I love it so much. - They're awesome, yeah. - But some people, I think you'd be surprised. I think that there'd be some jerk that gets cancer and comes in there, and you got to treat him, and you're like, "Just die, I don't want to treat you." - If you're a big enough dick, I don't feel bad for you, whatever you have. I'll go, I'll, at one point, I'll go, "That's why you have cancer, you fucking asshole." Yeah, you never learn how to fucking treat people. - That's what happens. - Yeah, I guess that's the equivalent of the bird that shits on your freshly watched corner. - Exactly. I like birds right up until they shit all over my stuff. - Oh, then it's the worst. Then it's, "Hey, you motherfucker, yeah." So, Lula ends up also, after she's a secretary, I guess she's interested in the medical field, and she trains as an EMT. So, and she gets her license and all that, and she'll end up getting her nursing license and everything like that. So, that's the path she's gonna take. And her friend is Linda that we know from next door here. Now, Linda Lietam, she will talk about her family. She's got a husband. They stayed, they were married here. His name's Gary Lietam. He drives a truck in Memphis, and, quote, "operates a gun shop out of their garage." - That's not a, that's not a gun shop. - He sells, he sells guns out of their garage. - That's a dangerous man, that's what that is. He operates a drug store out of their fucking living room. No, he doesn't, he just sells people's bills. - No, he's this odd one, bad stuff. - That's interesting. Just in their little ranch style, one story home, you pull in and you can just buy some guns. - Oh, Jesus. - I pictured like a big fucking, - Oh, there's illegal things, yeah. - With red paint, just scribble. Gary's gun shop on it. - Gary's guns. - Yeah, it's crooked, you know, it's all fucked up. And he's just like, "Son makes it legal." That's the rules, buddy. So that's her husband. They have daughters, and they have two daughters here too, Jennifer, who's born in 1971, and Melanie, who's born in 1973. And these two women meet as neighbors in the 1970s, 77, 78, and they're two young mothers. They both have two kids, and they're in the ballpark of the same age. - Sure. - So they friendship is just immediately struck out here. It's all about their kids. They both take care of their kids during the day. When they needed to go shopping, like when the kids were little, one would keep the kids, while the other would go shopping for both of them. Just give the other one the list, and she would shop for them, and they'd take turns doing it. They were really trying to help each other out here. It really grows, and they became best friends. After the divorce, after Lula's divorce, they both entered training to be nurses, 'cause she was like, "Well, I'll do it with you. "You need a career, and a little extra money "wouldn't help me either." I don't know how the glocks are selling this week, so I don't know how that's gonna go, so I can use a little extra income, and they decide to do that there. Eventually, Linda will move into a house on the other side of town, which is still five minutes away, or 10 minutes away, but they still remain close, and then they end up living next to each other again after that. But for years, they lived on the same cove, which is a cul-de-sac again in Mississippi, and Linda ended up moving into a bigger house, is why she moved. But it's mainly about their children, and then the work and everything like that. Lula would often take care of Linda's daughters in the morning when Linda worked late at night on various projects, which included a tax preparation business with her father, and Linda was in the management of a dozen rental properties as well. - Well, she works for Disney. - She worked for somebody, yeah. So she's trying to put it together. I think that's why she wants to be a nurse to try to just do one thing. - Do one thing, yeah. Put a 40 and go home. - And she's doing things like where she'll do all the tax prep stuff and all that kind of shit. She does that after the kids go to bed. - Oh, gosh. - So that's what I mean. She'll be up late at night, working on the tax prep till two o'clock in the morning, and then the kids gotta get up for school and at breakfast and all that at 6 a.m. So Lula helps out by taking the kids in the morning and taking them to school and doing all that shit and letting Linda get some sleep. So these two just really lean on each other and it's handy to have somebody that can fill in your weak spots, you know what I mean? That's really, really handy, actually. So one of the relatives said, "Linda and Lula was two people. "If you've seen one of them, you've seen both of them." - Do they mean one person? - Was two people, if you've seen one of them, you've seen both of them. Linda and Lula was two people. - Yeah. - If you've seen one of that, you can hear the accent in that. - You bet, you know who said that. - Yeah, that guy fights at Waffle House as late at night, right? - Yeah, and mixes up sayings all the time. - All the time, yeah. So Lula's son said that they were inseparable, especially after the divorce. Mike, Lula's son said, "Linda was somebody Mom confided in." Which makes sense. The daughter here, Stacey, she said that, you know, they've been friends for a long time and she said that the way she looked at Linda as like another mother. Like it was, like they were sisters, basically, the two ladies. She said, "I just go in her house just like I would Mommas." Meaning Linda, she just walked in her house like it was her house. No problem. That's the arrangement, though. - Yeah, if that's the arrangement, that's fine. But don't just, because you like me, just walk in my shed. - This is, the kid would just be able to, the kids were both welcome to come and go from the other houses, like they were their kids. - It's pretty amazing. - I mean, wow, that's, I don't want anybody's kids in my house that fucking often. - Yeah, I just don't want them doing that. - You imagine just, you have two kids and then you go to the bathroom and come back and now you have four kids. No, ah, I didn't know, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You back up. - You just put a 12-pack of beer in the fridge and go to take a shit and you come out and somebody's drinking your beers. Who are you, why are you in my house? - What's the fuck is going on? - Hey, dad, no, you got it, dad, get out. - Get the fuck out. So Stacey says, "I have had to maintain contact "with her," meaning Linda, ever since Mama died. She was the executor of my mother's estate. Anything either Michael or I needed, we went to Ms. Liedem. It went to Linda for it, it's just the way it was. She said that mom, Flora Welch, said they were very close those two. Lula kept her children while Linda worked and Lula treated her like part of the family. Linda had come to our family reunions also, says Lula. Like, even when there's a family reunion, Linda's there, it's, they are like family. She said that Lula told me repeatedly that Linda was her best friend. Linda came to the funeral. She spent the night at a motel in Grenada, Mississippi and came to the house and visited with the relatives and she cried her eyes out at the service. So, member of the family here, there. So, now she ended up, Lula ended up being a medical transcriber at Memphis Baptist Hospital. And also she did nursing stuff on the side as they're gonna start like their own little business, like a little home healthcare business where they'll come and, you know, check your blood pressure or do your shit like that. Yeah, that's sort of a deal here. So, she has that and she has the medical transcribing at the hospital and first young began, Lula began working as an LPN, licensed practical nurse and then started volunteering also with the Lake, or the Horn Lake Fire Department as a bookkeeper before getting her EMT license. So, they're very active, these two ladies. Who knew the fire department needed bookkeepers? I did not, I guess you would though. Yeah, I mean, I guess if you have to buy a new hose, someone's gotta write that down. You gotta know who he can? Yeah, they got it. How much wax do they go through for those fucking things? Honestly, there's a firehouse by my house and I can see the yearly breakdown of what I pay in taxes directly to the firehouse. Really? Yeah, yeah, you could, it's a shit, dude. I could fucking, the amount-- Tell you where everything goes? The amount of turtle wax that fucking, all they do is wax every time I pass by. They're waxing the fucking trucks. It's like, listen, I think you do-- We don't wax it so much. Half the money if you just have some spots on the truck and I don't care. If you show up in my houses on fire, I'm not gonna go, hey, that truck isn't shiny enough. Fuck and put my house out, I don't care. What are we doing? I mean, can't you wax paint off eventually? I think I can't be clear, can't wax in it too much be bad? Well, then you gotta pay for it to get repainted too, that's my point. Yeah, now you're gonna pay for a clear coat, Jay. What are we doing? Yeah, are we wrapping these things? Help, help me. Make a chamber. And firemen are fucking jacked. Those guys are gonna really strip that paint. They're eating good too isn't there? That's the other thing. What's that costing? What year's this fire? The fire was in '94. Yeah, December 19th. She's young then, yeah. Yeah, '47. That's way too young. Oh, Jesus Christ. Way too young to die of either fire or cancer, really. Yeah. That's just either way, too young. Way too alert and like with it to understand what's happening. She wasn't like 90 and riddled with dementia going. Is someone here? Is that right? Is that right? Someone else. Or as the flames engulf her and catch her nightgown on fire? No. She's crawling to escape when she's fucking burned alive. God damn it. Oh my God. So Lula worked for the ambulance corps for the fire department as a volunteer. And they said she did this strictly volunteer. We're a paid department now, but we still run volunteers and she was on the volunteer role. She was a very nice person, very easy going. Lula. So everybody likes Lula. I think it's '89 she is diagnosed with breast cancer. And Linda's the first person she tells. And the thing is, is they told her that it had already progressed pretty good. And 1990 is not 2024 in terms of cancer treatment at all. Right, yeah. Doesn't seem like it, but that's 35 years ago. Yeah, yeah. There's been a lot of advancement. My friend's dad across the street was diagnosed with leukemia. And within like six months, that man was dead. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and people, I'm sure they got just got, you should also a lot of late stage diagnosis. You know, that's just, you kind of fucked after that. But still, it's, there's a lot better, more effective cancer treatments now than there was in 1990. And so yeah, she told her that, you know, she has cancer. It's the first person she entrusted that to. When Lula had gallbladder surgery, Linda stayed overnight with her at the hospital and everything slept in her room and everything like that. She ends up, Lula ends up having a radical mastectomy in April of 1990. Breast cancer. She is fighting it, absolutely. The cancer then returned. And when it returned, she told her that it's, it's terminal, you're done, basically. And that was, that was in 1990, 1991. But she said, not happening. Wow. Lula said, I don't really care what you're saying right now. I am, I've seen people beat this before my eyes and I'm going to fucking do it too. And I think the attitude is a good part of this, you know what I mean? That's a big, a big thing from what I've seen here. For my anecdotal experience in the sure, sure field of cancer with, you know, all of our relatives having cancer all the time. Yeah, it seems that no, no family number is fucking safe. It's really just popping up like crazy and it's depressing. So yeah, Lula had multiple chemotherapy and radiation treatments after the surgery. And yeah, her friends said they were very painful and caused her to be sick. And when they'd have to take Lula back to the hospital, we'd hear it first from Linda and she'd be at the hospital to meet us when the family arrived. So she is right there with her all the time. She would, she was the mouthpiece. She was telling everybody where to go. Yeah, because she was the one who took her to the hospital. Yeah, that's why because Lula would have called Linda to say, "I need to go to the hospital." Linda would have said, "I got you, be there in five minutes." You know, let's go. So yeah, her sister here, Lula's sister, said that the family dealt with the condition kind of on a day-to-day basis. They said she had been down sick for so long. She had times when she just couldn't get up and go. But then on her good days, she wanted to go out shopping. She wanted to sit up at night and play cards. We knew it was coming, but we didn't expect it this way. Right, right. You know, it was weird. So Linda always has Lula's back though. I guess they talked all the time. Her sister said, Lula's sister said they shopped together. They went out to eat together, meaning Linda and Lula. She said, "I'm sure Lula told Linda things she'd never tell mama or any of us." For one thing, she didn't want to tell mama how much she hurt, how bad the cancer was because she didn't want mama to worry. Meeting her mom. She didn't want her, meanwhile, her mom lived another 30 years. She was wild. So that her mom was also dealing with-- dad just died in 1990. So Oscar dies. She's got terminal cancer at the time. That's tough on floor, you know, the mom. So the kid, they said that even Linda would come through for Lula in difficult times when the family didn't even know Lula was having tough times. She said, quote, "When Lula's light bill was too high-- I like how, by the way, in the South, electric bill is the light bill." It's not even just the South. There's several parts of the country where it's the light bill. That's funny, yeah. When Lula's light bill was too high, Linda had bought her groceries. When the cancer made it difficult for Lula to get around, Linda took her places in her van, allowing Lula to lie down in the back. So she chauffeured her around, bought her groceries for her, did all of these nice things. Lula's sister said that Lula was a very giving person. She said, quote, "She didn't want to take more than she could give. Her neighbors went grocery shopping for her after she got sick and cleaned her house and painted her room for her, and they were doing it to pay her back for all she'd done for them." Wow. It was mainly just Linda doing all that, by the way, not just neighbors, it was neighbor. So the sister also said that Lula had taken children in who needed help from time to time. She said she was one of a kind. We were 100 miles away because she was in Horn Lake and we were down here in Grenada County. But it was nice to know they thought that much of her to brighten up her room when she came home from the hospital. It's nice to know that she's loved. So they said nobody ever looked after her the way her friend Linda Lietam had, though. Nobody. An ambulance driver said, "Because of Ms. Young's illness with the cancer, we had to take a number of runs to her home. I met Linda Lietam at the home on a number of occasions. Linda introduced her as her best friend. I would say they were very close." So no doubt. Getting the smile and confidence you've been dreaming about, all from the comfort of your home isn't a total mystery with bite clear aligners. Just don't be surprised if all your friends start asking, "What's your secret?" Begin by ordering your at-home impression kit today for only $14.95. Bite clear aligners are doctor-directed and delivered to your door. Treatment costs thousands less than braces, plus they offer flexible financing, accept eligible insurance, and you can pay with your HSA FSA. Get 80% off your impression kit when you use code WONDERY at bite.com. That's B-Y-T-E.com. Start your confidence journey today with Bite. It's time to put a stop to endless scrolling through movies and shows to learn on something you actually love. Fire TV streaming devices make it easy to find and stream your faves and discover new ones. Imagine all your favorite streaming apps, including live TV in one place. And with personalized profiles, there's something for everyone. And now, when you purchase any Fire TV streaming device, you'll have access to six months of MGM Plus. Let me repeat that. Six months of MGM Plus. It's Fire TV's gift to you. MGM Plus has thousands of movies, from classics to Hollywood hits, plus exclusive acclaimed original series. You can find new episodes of the Epic Western Billy the Kid, the new crime drama Hotel Cocaine from The Creators of Darkos, the legal thriller Emperor of Ocean Park, and a brand new season of the hit psychological horror series from-- oh, and do we mention it's ad-free? Watch TV your way with a Fire TV streaming device. Visit amazon.com/FireTVMGM to learn more. Terms apply, limited time offer. Hi there. It's Julia Louis-Dreyfist. You may know me from my podcast, called Wiser than Me, where I talk to older women and get their wisdom from the front lines of life. I was amazed by how many people told me our show made them look forward to getting older, which is why I'm here to talk about Season 2 of the show. Sally Field, Billy Jean King, Beverly Johnson, Ina Gart, and Vani Ray, just to name a few. All hail old women. Wiser than Me, Season 2 is out now from Lemonade Media. Yeah. By the way, during the gallbladder surgery, not only did Linda stay overnight with her, she also planned with her family to throw a surprise birthday party for her in the hospital because she had to have the surgery and was still recovering on her birthday. Birthday. Wow. Yeah, which is really cool. Now, Lula and Linda also started a home health care business together. Right. That's an interesting thing. Yeah, and it was a legitimate business that they started, you know, LLC and all that kind of thing. So they had life insurance policies on each other, which is funny because, so to wait, you know what I mean? Just did that, yeah. Yeah, if you hear a podcast that's been around a while and there's commercials on it, those motherfuckers have life insurance policies. They're protecting each other. Yeah. They're protecting. Like Jimmy is worth way more dead than alive to me. [LAUGHTER] Exactly. But here's how I know that I love him. I still don't want him dead. [LAUGHTER] I would still rather he lives. I'd rather make less money and have you live. That's how I know I like you. [LAUGHTER] You know what I'm saying? Yeah. That's how it works, though. You have to have that. So as her illness worsened, though, I guess she knew basically, Lula said her flora did not want life insurance from Lula. She didn't want to be Lula's beneficiary because she said she didn't like profiting from a death that made her feel bad. Linda didn't? No, no. Lula's mother. Lula didn't want Linda. Oh, Lula's mother. Lula's mom, Flora, didn't want to be a beneficiary because she said, I don't want to profit from somebody's death. That would feel weird. And asked her if she would mind changing the beneficiary. Can you not make-- Because at first, she just made her mom the beneficiary. Make somebody else, yeah. As Flora said, please, Lula make somebody else. So they made a trip to Memphis to sign a document that changed the beneficiary. That policy's only worth like $5,000. It was just a-- you know, kind of a bridge thing. Safe in that, yeah. A couple of months of profits or whatever. And that was to be paid to Linda. So that's what they did here. In 1994, in September, they had a big family reunion. The Welch's did. And Lula attended the reunion. Linda was there. You know, her sisters were there. And she had her two brothers and her sisters and everybody there. And the whole family was there. They all saw Linda, everybody's hanging out. That's September. Now, right after that is when she gets the word from her doctor that her cancer is in a full remission and she's cancer free at the moment. So, to go from you're going to die, for sure, for real, for real, you're going to die to-- We have nothing for you. Fuck, you're good right now is-- Enjoy yourself. A miracle, yeah. And if she did in four years, she turned this-- Wow. Wow, you know, your spirit and your will to live here has got to have something to do with that a little bit. You would like to think so anyway. Maybe that's just a person trying to-- hoping we have more control over shit than we actually do. I don't think we have any control. She's just got a good role of the dice, I guess, here. Well, and then a bad role of the dice happens. That she deserves it, you know what I mean? She's nice. Yeah, she's a good person. Sometimes those good things happen to good people and you're like, good for them. That's awesome. And I think that's another thing that people tell themselves that we all tell ourselves, well, I'm going to do good things and good things will happen. That person's a dick and caramel catch up to him. Probably not. They'll probably be fine. They're probably going to be rich and happy and just be a dick to everybody. I know people have been dicks for years and they're just fine, decades of dictum and they're fine. It happens all the time. So then December 1994, December 19th is the fire. Like I said, reported at 557 a.m. And it's a shame, like we said, because she just got told she was cancer free and she presumably could have had another at least 20 years ahead of her here if everything stayed good. So the daughter, her daughter, Lula's daughter, Stacey, was there. She's 20 years old at the time. I think she was 18 at the time. She said she was surprised to see Linda at the fire that morning because it was so early. Yeah. She said, quote, as long as I've known Ms. Lietum, she never wanted to get out of bed before noon. Now it's pre seven a.m. and she's out there. Yeah, that's seven hours early. Acting or five at least. So one of somebody here who had been taking care of, one of taking care of one of the kids said when she arrived at the house, she heard Linda accusing Lula's husband of being responsible for the fire saying it's her ex-husband that did this. So later, Linda lit a cigarette and said, I feel so guilty. I put that propane gas tank in there, but I know he did it. Why would she? OK, she's telling people she said that she bought a Christmas present, a grill, for her daughter and her daughter's husband or whatever, and was hiding it in Linda's house to hide it. That's why it wasn't. So that they didn't see it. And there's a propane tank in it. And that's where the explosion came from. That's the issue. Yeah. So the fireman who found her body, by the way, his name is Michael Casey, he had visited her several times in the three years they worked together. So he knew her well, and he had to find her like that, which is tough finding a-- It's brutal. Hard enough if it's a stranger. But if it's someone you know, that's fucking brutal. That's terrible. So he said he found her on the floor next to the bed. He called for help. It was hard to get her because she had been taking-- they put her on a ton of steroids. So they got her on a bunch of steroids for what it was-- For the cancer. It was a cancer thing. So she's a lot heavier now. So she's hard to get up because she's over 200 pounds now. Which she was never that big before. This was from the steroids. So they said he, with two of the other firemen, had to strap her body to a board and carry her to the backyard, but it was too late. So part of it was it took them a minute to get her out of there because he had to call for help to be able to pull her out because he couldn't do it by himself. It's dead weight. So that's hard. And he said, quote, once we got Miss Lula out, I just went off by myself for a long time. That's what the fireman says. He's a 30-year-old lieutenant fireman. So he's just heard of that bad because everybody loved her. She's so nice. Gary, who is Linda's husband, said, you know, it was very sad. He said, they were friends. There ain't no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Tell you what. You've got to sell on Smith & Wesson with the Raj today. Yeah, anybody want to look at a Ruger? I got a large collection here. He definitely pronounces the Hs and his what's for sure. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the word vehicle. Yeah, vehicle. It's a vehicle. That's a vehicle. Right there. A lot of syllables. Yeah. So this guy said, quote, we've known the young family a long, long time. And they said, are the women like sisters? And he'd say, he said, I'd say closer than that. What's closer than sisters, unless they fucked each other, which they didn't, where their heads connected? Yeah, co-joined. You dumb f*cked. Jesus Christ. What a dumb thing to say. Now, I can show you, I got a 40 caliber sale this week. He said, I guess he answered the phone shortly after 6 a.m. on the day of the fire and woke his wife up with the news because I guess one of the neighbors called him and said, holy sh*t, Lula's house is on fire, so Linda, you know, was woken up and the husband Gary said she went right over there when she heard, ran over there. Now Eddie Riles, who is a neighbor of Lula, said that he talked to Linda as she was sobbing on his lawn while the firefighters put out the blaze here. This guy said, he's the guy who heard the explosions and told everybody about it. He's the town crier of fire here. The crier of fire, fire crier. He said that he heard two explosions at the house and recalled a sorrowful Linda telling him that she had stored a Christmas present for her daughter, a gas grill in one of the bedrooms along with a bottle of propane that was full, a full bottle of propane in the house. And Eddie said, quote, nobody in their right mind would keep propane in a house. Yeah. Right. That's generally outside of the house is where the propane goes. Yeah. Usually like that's a very heavy gas. It'll settle on the floor if it gets out and you don't know it's there because you can't smell it until you fucking ignite it. You want to keep as many gases as you can out of the house. Yeah. Yeah. Coming from outside source. Yeah, there's generally pucks on the wall that will alert you when there are gases in the house. Yeah. Things like that. Yeah. You generally don't want your gas source to be on premises indoors indoors indoors outdoors. Yeah. Outdoors fine. A lot of propane tanks outdoors. Yeah, sure. Very common indoors. A little less common. It's crazy. He said, that's crazy. The fire chief also the Horn Lake deputy fire chief Mike Moore said, quote, I can tell you there was no charcoal grill in that house. Charcoal grill. Member. She said, I guess it would be a gas grill and he's just an idiot that thinks all grills are charcoal grills. He could he could use some some king of Christ. You're the fire chief, bro. You got to know the difference between grill fires, right? Half the fires that are started in houses are probably from grill accidents. Does he know there's several different kinds of fire extinguishers? I bet he doesn't. Nope. He just sprays the hose on it. Put water on it. Y'all, it's out of control. I mean, it's grease. But if you put enough water, it should overwhelm overwhelm the grease, I think. It's an electrical fire, sir. It's all right. It's all right. Enough. Enough water will overwhelm anything. Don't worry about it. It's kind of like meat. If you have meat and it's bad, if you cook it long enough, it ain't bad no more. Everything's dead. The fires on the Titanic, it went down there out, right? See what I'm saying? Fire went out. Those are big fires, too. Those are 80 ton engines apiece. Huge cold fires extinguish them. You don't see little little glow and orbs in the bottom of the ocean, do you? Nope. Why? Water puts fire out. Rest my case now. Go ahead and spray that on that circuit breaker. Go ahead and spray that water on the circuit breaker. Go. And then go buy a gun from Gary. For some reason, the fact that he runs a gun shop out of his garage is pretty funny. But the fact that his name is Gary and he runs a gun shop out of his garage, I don't know why that's so much funnier. And it's one of the top three most funny names to have a garage gun shop. I think Gary. Gary's garage gun. I don't know what Gary Ricky and who else who else do we have? Terry. I guess Terry's pretty good to Terry Gary Ricky. Those guys have garage gun stores. So but he's saying there was no the firefighters didn't find a grill in the house. They're saying no, no propane grill. No grill. They said, yeah, there was a tank, but we didn't find a grill. We just found a tank. So what's up with that? Linda saying I had to put the grill in there. So like that's weird. They also found, in addition to the propane tank, several oxygen bottles that she had from when she was sick and needed oxygen and those are fucking rockets. Oh, man. So that's why there was multiple explosions because it was they think it was the propane tank and then bang, bang, bang with fucking oxygen tanks. They also set upon closer inspection. It appears the propane tanks release valve was vented out and opened up a fourth of the way. So it was like open with propane leaking out, which you can smell. Yeah, very strongly. So that's that's a and like natural gas smells like eggs, but propane smells like dick. Like it's so bad. It's like cats. It's raw. Yeah. It's rancid. You've ruined it. That's bad. Yeah. It smells terrible. So there's no way it was like putting her house the night before and she didn't notice it was open a quarter in a way. Like there'd be no possible. It's screaming out. It's that's what I mean. There's no and also it would have been by the middle by five o'clock in the morning. The tank would have probably been empty, but the house would have been full of propane. So either way, they investigators attribute the cause of the intensity of the fire to the combination of propane and oxygen in the house. So they said, small fire from the extension cord, it sets the propane off, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And then now you got some serious fuel for the fire. Now Linda disagrees with the death certificate here. She's got some issues with it. Linda Lietam calls the De Soto County coroner Jeff Pounders. It's my man Jeff Pounders right there. That sounds like a frat boy nickname. That's my man Jeff Pounders like pounds away with his propane dick. Those are, there's a few sores on him, but they're almost healed up. We're going to get him out there. It's party time for old Jeff Pounders. You betcha. I'm not letting Jeff Pounders look over my deceased relatives. So I lead him, called him a few days after Lula's death to learn the ruling on the cause of death. And then called him a little later for a copy of the autopsy report. I'd like to consult with you on this now. She is a nurse. It might be medical interest. Sure. She might have an interest in those things or whatever, but it's still weird and nobody else was calling for that. She's not a fucking coroner to cause a death, nor know anything about it. I have some medical interest in anyway. Now Lula's daughter Stacy said that she couldn't understand why number one Linda was at the house because she doesn't live next door anymore. She came over there. She's not up that early. She also said she didn't understand why Linda, quote, pitched such a fit when there was a reference to Lula's bout with cancer on the death certificate. So Stacy, Stacy said, quote, she said repeatedly that there was no reason to list the cancer that mama that mama had died from smoke inhalation. Now some of the pieces of the puzzle seem to be falling into place. The only problem is that Michael and I are having to go through all of this again now. So yeah, yeah, she's trying to stir up some shit going. Why do you even put cancer as a, as a, because I think they put it as a contributing cause, which is ridiculous because she was in remission. So that's, I mean, I don't know if Linda's arguing because she thinks she's got some medical expertise because she's a practical nurse or I don't understand it, but that's what's going on. Now, the thing that they find though, just 28 days before the fire, Linda had bought a $38,000, well, Lula had bought a $38,000 policy from the J. M. I.C. insurance company is $38,601, which would pay off alone on Lula's pickup truck in the event of her death. So what ends up happening is Linda is the beneficiary of this. So Linda collected $8,907 of that amount with the rest of it going to pay off the truck loan because she was lower than the truck loan because they, they took it out at full loan cost and took it out at the, at the time of the purchase. Yeah. Yeah. So now four months before the fire, nationwide insurance company sold a half million dollar policy on Lula's life here to Lula and carried an additional $200,000 accidental death benefit all to be paid to Linda upon Lula's death. $200,000? $700,000. Gee, they are on her side. I would say so, but nationwide won't pay that. Oh, they don't pay it. They invoke a standard clause that allows insurers to withhold payment on what they deem suspicious claims filed within two years of an insurance issuance of a policy. So because it was so close to the death, they have a standard thing in the clause, a standard clause that says if it happens that close to the death, we can hold it for two years while we investigate to make sure it's not suspicious. So that's just accused of Tory's fuck sure is. So Gary Lietam, Gary is Linda's husband, he collects because he's a beneficiary on one of these. He collects $200,000 and his wife cashed a $75,000 check on two met life insurance policies as well. This is that's so much life insurance on this woman on all these different sources. Yeah. So Lula's mother said that Lula took out her own insurance policy through her employment as a nursing assistant when she worked for Baptist Memorial Hospital. She said, quote, Linda, Lula listed Linda as the first beneficiary of that policy. Linda was listed because Lula wanted to ensure that her children would have the money for their education. She listed me as the second beneficiary, meaning Flora, the mom. She did not want to do anything that could hurt me with my social security. That's why. You know, if you receive too much money that they want to cut your payments. Okay. So Lula's sister said there was never any doubt in Lula's mind that Linda would do the right thing about the policy and that Linda would ensure that Lula's children received the money. But she said that they were kind of young and would probably piss it away. So kind of be a trustee, basically, you know, the trustee of this account, oversee this and make sure it doesn't get wasted. Yeah. That's kind of the arbiter of the whole thing here. So Linda does not delay in claiming the insurance proceeds. There's different companies. She's getting it from Florida, Ohio, Rhode Island. One of the MetLife offices here, the insurance checks started to roll in from MetLife first. That's the one where she got the $200,000 one. I guess she altogether, it's like $975,000 in life insurance. Good Lord. From all these different places. Now the cops start to say that Lula could not have obtained these policies because of her illness. Who the fuck would ensure somebody with a million dollars of cancer? Terminal cancer for a million dollars. That just doesn't make any sense. You'd almost have to put up a million dollars to get that million dollars. No, it would be like betting on a 16 and O team against an O and 16 team in the NFL. They probably got so much. You got about a hundred to win a hundred and one. You know what I mean? Like, it's just the way it is. It's kind of one of those. So she said that it's strange because also, Linda, according to these policies, Linda could not have collected on these policies if Lula had died of cancer or natural causes. Oh, she had to be a natural. Anything natural. It had to be an accidental death, a murder, an explosion of her house, fell off a boat and drowned, things like that. Something like that. So Gary and Linda collect about $285,000 before these insurance companies start looking into this a little bit. By the way, the firemen who tried to rescue her, the three who pulled her out, brought her out in the backyard, they end up getting a big fireman award here for their attempts to rescue her. Yeah, they said they did a courageous, the mayor said they did a courageous job in trying to save her and they're still deeply troubled by this case. Lula Young was a popular volunteer with the ambulance crews and her death was extremely upsetting. Yeah. And the damage to her body probably was so extensive and severe like they've seen her like, yeah, I mean, in two different situations and one of them, they'll never forget seeing a woman like the bird in her nightgown. Yeah, the thing that happened in a fire is fucking crazy. Oh, fuck your body up. God. Golly. Yeah. Right. Still alive though. Yeah, it's fucking horror. It's horrific to the pain that she's in and everything else. It's horrible. So, so shortly after this, the initial, like we said, investigation showed that the fire started because of the frayed extension cord on the space heater. Yeah. Now they said though, the investigators started thinking that the fire just spread too quick and it had to be some kind of accelerant, it couldn't have happened like that. The fire doesn't move like that. Yeah. It's weird. One of the guys said we had questions because too many things seemed wrong. The fire had started too hot too quickly and it was too hot still when our people arrived. Yeah. Certainly a fire will either blaze up at first to kind of calm down a little or get hotter, but they were like, it was hot and stayed hot, which is just weird. Then they found the propane bottle and at first they said, well, where'd this come from? And then Linda said, oh, she was holding the grill for me there. The cause of death was carbon monoxide poisoning and smoke inhalation. And it was ruled an accidental death, which is what the insurance needed to pay off. So they said the weird thing and what the firefighters didn't like is that the heater, the space heater and the propane tank were found very close together inside the house, which usually things you wouldn't keep close together are something that's going to be red hot next to a gas next to a gas contained in a container like that. And especially if they were, if it was on, which is strange too. And the fire chief said the valve had been turned on and left cracked. That means your gas has come, that means your gas is coming out, your gas is coming out. Yes. That's your standard Ford Taurus right there for dollars today, the valve was cracked. That means it's opened. Yeah. This is the guy selling Clark, the family truckster and vacation, you know, the, uh, metallic pee. So he, yeah, exactly. He said, so, uh, they put a key indicator right there that something strange was going on. They also, when they did the autopsy, they found sleeping pills in her system, like more sleeping pills than she would have taken to get to sleep. Yeah. More than you take for a normal dosage. No, now they started to question, was this suicide? Did she crack the question? Yeah. Did she crack the fucking tank open and take a bunch of sleeping pills because maybe she got a medical news she didn't like or, but that wouldn't make sense because she's been fighting this for years when she was at her lowest saying you're dead. Yeah. Right. She fought it and got to this point. Yeah. She would just give up now. So she had a mastectomy for Christ's sake. Yeah. Cut these off. She's a fighter. In the case, there's no way to know the district attorney and he said one has to wonder, did Lula take these herself or, you know, the sleeping pills and did she actually set the fire herself or did someone give them to her? What happened? Right. Right. So her son insisted that her, his mother would never commit suicide. Mike said she wasn't depressed at all. This was a lady that was looking forward to life the next day. She's a badass. Yeah. Which it just doesn't seem like you'd beat cancer and then off yourself. No reason. I've got to feel that's a rare, I'll bet that's happened six times. It's so rare. Yeah. It's so rare. And then we're all based on somebody leaving that person being like, I thought you were going to die cancer. I'm leaving. That there's rarer than a lesbian abortion. I'll tell you what, rare. So the insurance here, they, they're like, they go to the young family and are there and the Welch family there. And they're saying how, you know, Linda's the executor here, which is weird. A postal inspector came to talk to Linda's family and asked them questions about her insurance. He asked if Lula had a sister named Linda and Flora, the mom said, no. And he said, are you sure I'm her mom? She said, quote, I told him, no, I surely know my own children. I'm not that old, chief. So he asked then if the family knew that Lula had taken out a large amount of insurance and they didn't because they didn't know about all these insurance policies that Lula had out all over the place. She said, Flora said, I don't believe in life insurance profiting from someone's death. I have just enough to cover my burial. So she doesn't want anybody to get any money from her. So the an investigator for the DA's office suspected that the fire was murder. And after 18 months, he still couldn't prove it as we'll talk about here. So he, I guess, turned over his files to a postal inspector when he got another job. And that postal inspector merged the state's case with the federal information about because the feds are involved because if it's any kind of insurance fraud, it is done in different states. It's a federal affair. So that's what they're thinking about. They're looking for mail fraud type of things, but they don't have, they said Lula seemed to take him out on herself. It just doesn't make any fucking sense at all. Then they get a break. Brenda Driver, she's a nationwide insurance agent who is absolutely not on Linda side here. No, we'll just say, no. She had sold the half million dollar policy to Lula. Then she heard talk at a gas station because it's a small town. Wow. So she found out about the fire while people were chit chatting around the pump here at the come and go. At the come and go just getting some night crawlers and filling up. She's talking to her about this couple night crawlers and a PB and J. That's right. Oh, that's good stuff right there. And she heard talk about a get about a house fire that killed a woman named Lula Young, who lived in the DeSoto Village subdivision. She recognized there. She recognized the name immediately here. She said, but the woman whom I sold the policy to lives in another part of town. That wasn't her address. Then this is fucking crazy. The same Brenda Driver. This is how small this town is apparently at the time back then, because I think there was less than 10,000 people here at the time. She's at Walmart. Yeah. Okay. Brenda, the nationwide insurance agent is at Walmart. And she said she looked up and saw what she described as a quote, dead woman walking. That's that's that's that's hard. She saw a customer who she heard died in a house fire. Yeah. The customer was fucking Linda. Oh my God. It was Linda making out her own policies on herself in as Lula as Lula. Yes. What the fuck Linda? Because Lula couldn't have gotten these policies because of they would have known about her surgeries for her mastectomy. So they would have known she had cancer. They would have been a totally different thing. They said, Holy shit, this that's the what the fuck. So she was real confused. Yeah. Probably pretty mad that she's been taken. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's a nationwide insurance. It's not out of her pocket. Well, so they've been taken a lot. This happens. Somebody's taken them before when you're giving out money for murder, you're going to get people that are going to fucking try to take advantage of that. You know what I mean? Yeah. When you're giving out money for deaths, people are going to make that as best they can make that death look accidental. Been happening for a long time now. So they at that point, she went to her, you know, to her office and said, Holy shit. The woman who I just sold this to who's dead, I just saw in Walmart. This is fucked up. She's kicking ass. Yeah. And so they went, well, I guess she's not dead then and scratched that off. And said that the one guy, the nationwide agent said, we just saved the company $700,000. Great work. I'm glad you needed an Instapod. Oh my God. Yeah. Thank fuck for that. Glad that you liked a peruse. That's great. You don't just go in and get what you need and go out. I like that. He's sticking around a while. You were looking at those lint chocolate things. You really wanted some fancy chocolates tonight and you picked right. You're getting the fucking impulse buys and we like that about you. Good job. So the detectives determined that Linda must have bought the policies behind Lula's back, paid the monthly premiums on them. Yeah. And then just stood by and wait to wait for the benefit from her death. She had that's they don't know. That's what it had to be. Now, the thing is, they also don't know if this was if Lula was in on this, right? Because they're like, was Lula in on this? Yeah. Not with the murder, but with the with the insurance because that would pay out more. And if she sent Linda in her place, she could get a bigger policy to pay to help her kids later. Great point. Yeah. So they were like, did she send Linda in her place because she doesn't have any of the physical maladies. Yeah. That she has. Blood tests and nothing shows up exactly. Is there that or what? So that's what they were wondering about here. But either way, she didn't do it. So she would be murdered in her house. That was. Yeah. Right. That was a little extra stank on it. I don't think she had. This was in case the cancer came back. I feel like she was doing because the extra 200 grand was accidental death benefit. So yeah, at that point, the retired federal investigator who specialized in handwriting identification and forgery detection determined that Linda forged Lula's signature on the policies. Really? He said it was obvious that these were fraudulent policies. So they go talk to Linda and Linda said, look, I'm her best friend. You know, they also they asked her about the fire. They said, where were you that night? Right. And she said, I was at home with my family, which is 10 minutes away. Oh, okay. Yeah. It was 10 minutes away because she moved away out of the neighborhood. And she said, you know, God, I don't know, you know, I wasn't here. So she has a solid alibi anyway. But then when so we know she wasn't physically there, then she was questioned. She said that Lula was in on the insurance policy scam. They asked her about that and first she denied it and then they went, look, this lady saw you in Walmart. It's you. And she said, okay, Linda knew about it. This was part of a scam to get her kids more money and she didn't think anybody would find out. And they said, quote, Linda says that Lula had asked her to do this and asked her to take the medical exams because she'd had cancer and she knew she couldn't complete those exams and obtain those policies for that value. The intention was to defraud the insurance company about the cancer and for Linda to take care of Lula's kids with that money. That's what Linda said. The intention was to commit insurance fraud. Yeah. That's what it was. I was trying to help my cancer ridden friend commit insurance fraud. That's all. I was down for my friend, which is a crime, but not no one goes. You fucking scum back. You fucking. It's not killing your son. So many people are hurt because of you, I mean, insurance in first place is a fucking Ponzi scheme. Well, the whole thing is, yeah, we're on Peter to pay Paul the whole time. You're trying to scam them. They're trying to scam you. It's all. It's all. We're all trying to scam each other. It's all relative. There's money involved. Yeah, of course. Yeah, the goodness of our transactions that we're doing back and forth. There's zero insurance that is just fucking St. Hood. Stop paying your premiums and see how, see how fast they're on someone else's side after that. See if you're in good hands there. You're not going to be such a good neighbor then. So that's what they said that the insurance companies required these exams and Linda said she just said, you take the exams in my place. We're close in the same age. We're only seven years apart. You know, it looks like you're, you know, we could pass for the same age and they said with all of this, she took out all these insurance forms and that's what it was. She said she passed her medical exams with flying colors, signed the applications, Louli Young. And that's that. She also Linda made her daughter, Jennifer, the second beneficiary just in case Linda died before Loula. That way it would go to her and she could take care of it. That is wild. She could just do this with just words. But then she was told that she's in remission now. And now that this was with Linda, they thought she was going to die in the next year. And then they told her, Oh, no, you're good actually. We're all right. And so then there's a propane tank next to a space here a couple of weeks later. That's not good. Yeah. So January 1997, a friend of Loula and Linda's comes forward. And they said, quote, he confided that Linda had actually approached him on two different occasions, asking him to basically kill Loula as a mercy killing. She had cancer and she was dying. So would you? I just want to put her out of her misery. I can't watch her wither away. They go on to say he was friends with several police officers. So she asked him about how to burn a house down without getting caught. Not good. Yes. I love that too. I'm going to ask, who should I ask for advice about this murder? How about I ask a guy who's friends with a bunch of cops? He won't tell on me. That'll never come up in their fucking, I mean, I guess I assume the closest friends of cops, their friends with them because they do bad shit. Yeah, that's probably why, but they're going to tell the cop. It's not bad shit. They're going to tell like, hey, this lady wants me to kill this other lady. That's pretty fucked up, right? You've got this dipshit asked me how to start a fire. Wow. Didn't that lady die in a fire? Uh oh. She did. Yeah. So the cops who he's friends with asked him to wear a wire and get a confession out of Linda. Get her to say it again, but it didn't work couldn't get her to do it. So two weeks later, another informant approaches the police. There's people coming out of the woodwork for this shit. This is a guy named David Vincent and he was in jail at the time, currently a resident of a guest of the county. He was trying to get a deal on, I believe, his drug charges, if I'm not mistaken, by giving the police some information. Yeah, I'll tell you anything. I learned some shit. I've been in there. He revealed some information he'd learned from a fellow inmate who's a landscaper on the outside, a landscaper slash crack addict on the outside named Charles Wayne Dunn who sounds like a guy who you'd go to if you need. It's a bad guy. Yeah. Yeah. Charles Wayne. Middle name of Wayne. Done right there. You're out. You're out. You're out. You're out. You and John Wayne. Gazy. Same thing. So they said they've been working together here. That's what the, this guy said, a guy Charles Wayne Dunn confided in me one day that he had something he regretted. He told them there's something I regret and he said, Charles Wayne Dunn told David Vincent that he had killed Lulee Young and that Linda Lietam had paid him to do it. Really? Yes. So Vincent said that Dunn also had information that police never made public. He said that Charles Wayne Dunn told David Vincent that he had to make it look like an accident because if she died from cancer, the policies may not pay as much. What the fuck? No way this man would know this unless this was true. Yeah. That's, that's told that. Yeah. All these people have and all that kind of shit. He said, quote, when he was telling the story, what was running through my head was we got her. I mean, this was the break we'd been looking for about on Linda. That's the cop talking. So police put a wire on Vincent now, send him into jail in a second sting operation to try to get a confession from Dunn. But that doesn't work either because none of these people are skilled like investigators. They're just morons. They just go in and like and put their chest up to somebody's face and start asking, real incriminating questions. You grab them around the head and you pull them close to your chest. You know what I mean? Like you're really getting close. Smell my new cologne. You go. It's curved. Tell me about that murder plug again, big guy, and then you tussle his hair. That's how it works. That's how you do in jail. You know what I mean? So the police said, why are we doing this? Let's just go talk to Dunn. He's probably a fucking idiot and he's in jail on crack charges. He'll probably want to get off on those. He'd probably love to just say some shit. Yep. He's also in addition to his, you know, I guess that would be considered a vocation being a crack addict. In addition to that, he's also a handyman who sometimes works for Linda. And that's how they know each other. She said, hey, you're a, you're dumb and fucking poor. Thanks for fixing that drywall. Now you murder her by chance. How are you at setting fires to cancer ridden women's houses? Are you good at that or no? This guy's only 28, too. He's a younger guy. Nice mud work. Are you a murderer? How are you at being a death merchant, any good? You patch tongue and groove real nice. Real nice. How's your death merchant work? Okay. How do you deliver murder? Are you any good at it? You got like a mercenary price list or no? So he said that Dunn did jobs for Linda when he was, and at the time was dating Linda's daughter. Get out of here. So he was a crack head dating Linda's daughter who was like 20, maybe 18, 19 at the time. So a 10 years older crack head, who you know is a crack head and does landscaping work for you. That's how you let him date your daughter. And then I guess she was an adult at the time. But he also done because of he was close to the family, he had known Lula and spent time with her. Wow. He knew where he'd been to her house. He, he knew her. I mean, that's fucked up and he was just a stranger. He's willing to. Yeah. And he, he said his drug habit was just getting out of control and he needed money and so only so many, so many recessed lights you can put in somebody's house. That's all you can do. I mean, shit, that doesn't buy you. Sometimes you got to murder people for them. Don't buy enough crack. It really doesn't. So they said that the, oh, by the way, that Vincent guy had been in for burglary, not drugs. Wayne Charles Wayne done was in for drugs. So they said, hey, look, you know, we got a jail house possession here. Don had previous cocaine possession charges and all that kind of shit. He's just a general scumbag. The guy you want to date in your 18 year old daughter, you know, that kind of thing. At the time of the investigation, he was on probation and meeting regularly with his probation officer. So investigators devised a plan to try to get the informant and done in a room together. Hell yeah. Do they think he's such a master criminal that he won't crack? I feel like all you got to do is be like, we'll give you a cigarette if you tell us. Yeah. A dude told us that you told him this and he'll go, oh shit, I told somebody that and he'll be like, yeah, cool or American spirits across the table. He's going to tell you everything. An extra value meal will buy this guy's fucking loyalty. I have a feeling. Right. Yeah. I think so. You have decent meal. If he's been in county for a while. Got him some Popeyes. Yeah. Get him some fucking Bojangles. He's going to shit his pants. Oh, baby, those biscuits. So he wants some churches. So they, they definitely want to talk to him. That's their plan though. Yeah. Okay. Because he had confessed while he was in jail here and they're like, maybe we could get him in here and have his crack head self do that. So the DA said, we had the office wired. Yeah. They wired up the office. This is their third wiring of this idiot. He said, done was hesitant at first, but then what he said told us that he was guilty. What he said was, yes, I did what you fucking think I did. Then it came fast, which, you know, yeah, he said, so he said, quote, I had done's probation officer call him into the local probation office for a meeting and a drug test. So the informant would be there also once the probation officer was out of the room and the him and the informant were there together, the informant asked when done about the fire and done didn't deny it at all. He basically said, well, you can't shake your past. You've done what you've done and you can't, you know, can't wash it away. Other statements he made were, you know, saying that he probably killed her, but it wasn't enough to make an arrest. It was like eluding to shit like, well, yep. Things get hot on the inside when you're killing a cancer lady, but like not, I went there and killed her. Just like not enough to really nail her, no way to roast a duck, no to me, you know what I'm saying? So they were like, damn it. What do we do? So they said, what are we, let's just bring him in. This is ridiculous. Let's just ask him questions. Let's just ask him. Yeah. So they said, quote, I told him I knew that he'd been on drugs and that he felt bad about killing somebody. He initially denied the situation, but then the investigator brought up the heater and the propane tank next to each other. He told done that they believe the fire had been set intentionally and that this was arson and murder. So he said, all right, let me tell you everything that happened. Yeah. Apparently Linda had met Charles shortly after Charles moved in with her daughter and son-in-law there somehow. So he was dating the daughter, but also was the daughter was married. I don't know what's going on here, but we're not here to parse the love life. She has one daughter. I guess now she might have to do. Oh, she has two daughters. You're right. One in one is Lula doc. Okay. She has two daughters. Okay. That makes way more sense. This is fucking weird. That was in December of 93 that he and she had met and within a year he's killing people for her, which is she's got to be awfully convincing. That's very. So yeah, that's done says that Linda approached him with the idea to kill Lula, explaining that Lula was her best friend and that she was dying of cancer. Linda said that Lula asked Linda to kill her, but she didn't have the heart to do it. So she offered done $5,000 to do it for her. She presented it as a total mercy killing. And this, but then the prosecutor says, quote, he confided that Linda had actually approached him on two different occasions, asking him to basically kill Lula as a mercy killing. She had cancer. She was dying. He was friends with several police officers. So she asked him about how to burn a house down without getting caught. That's the first guy who came forward. You must have fucked up mercy killing of all time. That's fucked up. But then done said he'd given Lula medicine to make her fall asleep so that she wouldn't suffer during the fire. He forced her to take sleeping pills first. That's fucked up. So on the night before the fire, Charles Wayne done parked his car in Lula's driveway and entered the house. He's not real slick. No. He's going over to murder her and he parks in the driveway. Yeah. He pulls right up in. This guy's a fucking dummy. I mean, he's a dummy. He's a crackhead. Turn on the lights, man. Make some phone call. Yeah. Yeah. Make yourself a sandwich while you're at it. Why don't you get fingerprints on as many things as possible. Jerk off in the sink or something. Oh, do that. You want to leave good DNA behind real, just whole swimmers, jerk off into a wata paper towels and toss that in the trash. Make sure to put the plug in in the sink there and that way you don't want to lose any of it down the drain. Man, that sunset is gorgeous. Crill, patio, sunset, hard to get better than that. Unless you're browsing Carvana's inventory while you soak it all in. Oh, burger time. So sit back. Get comfortable. Carvana's got thousands of cars under $20,000 just waiting for you. I can stay here forever. Carvana, where car buying meets comfort, meets convenience. Download the app or visit Carvana.com today. Time out, this episode is brought to you by Puparoni, the original beef-flavored dog treats. It's a slam dunk for your pup. Be your best friend's best friend on game day and everyday with Puparoni treats. To learn more about Puparoni, original beef-flavored snacks, go to Puparoni.com. That's P-U-P-P-E-R-O-N-I.com. So he parked in there. He entered the house. He retrieved the heater from his truck and crushed up some newspaper nearby. Next to the heater, kindling, exactly. Then opened the valve on the propane tank, turned on the heater and left the house. Heater plus this plus that equals boom. Does he think all that's going to burn up? What a dumb fucking plant. It is, but it worked. That's the thing. It worked. I mean, for his purposes anyway, he said to them that he waited on her to go to sleep before he set the fire. He told it in a way that you got the feeling he was telling the truth. That's what the prosecutor said. The next day, he went to Linda's home and collected $1,000 from her with the balance, the next $4,000 to be paid out in smaller amounts over time. A couple hundred bucks here and there. Five grand on layaway? Layaway. That's how you do it now? That's why you hire a crackhead to kill somebody. The problem is that a crackhead will always get in trouble for being a crackhead and they're going to tell on you. He'll do crackhead work. You pay crackhead prices, you get crackhead work. I think that's the slogan. I mean, murder, you get what you pay for, for sure. No shit. So he said, I did that on her orders, started the house, then he surprises them with something else. He said, that's not the only fire I set on Linda's orders, by the way. What? He said, huh? He said, yeah, I started her daughter's house on fire with her daughters wanted this to happen as an insurance scheme scheme. Oh, they said that house belonged to Ms. Lietam's daughter. That was two years after the initial fire in Ms. Lula's house. So it's two years later, they figure we got away with one, we get away with the other. They just evidently decided the best thing to do was set it on fire and then get the insurance money for that also. That's just her thing. So it's five grand, that was it. At first, the fire wasn't the first thing she suggested to Mr. Dunn here. At first, she said that he said that she suggested, why don't we take Lula to a lake and you can push her into the water? Which seems horrible. That's even worse. Yeah. The two worst things. Yeah. Grounding and fireable. Jesus, what the fuck, actual dicks. Yeah. And he said that, but he said he couldn't do that. He's like, I can't physically do that. And they said, okay, later she decided on arson and purchased a propane gas tank that she stashed in the house in there. So the officials learned that she said, well, you hide this in your house because it's a gift for my husband and Lula said, okay, and then he came in with the heater. They learned that Linda was, you know, had done this before. By the way, the fire from the daughter's house, that was a $500 fee. 500 bucks to the $500. Yeah. No bodies. Yeah, no murder. It's just they were everybody was gone. So wow, I can't believe that he said that after she went to bed Lula that night, he put the propane tank in in a room, opened the valve space heater nearby and also tampered with the heater cord. He said he fucked with the heater cord as well, opened it up, yeah, frayed it up a bit. He said he did that in order to make it look more like an accident. They said the wire would cut so it would appear it was cut. So it would appear that it would be a short in the wire that caused the fire. That's what he did. So I mean, he was trying to think ahead, he almost worked. They said that done said that he got some money to Linda had given him the money to purchase the heater. And that was part of the plan. She had brought the propane tank, he bought the heater and this is fucked. So apparently he was convinced Linda told him, look, this will start. The propane tank will blow up and it'll blow her up and she'll die instantly. So she won't suffer because she's my best friend. I don't want her to suffer. I know you don't want her to suffer because you feel bad. So I know it takes the two most painful ways to die, but please try this. So yeah, it's not like they put the propane tank like, you know, upper ass or upper ass and yeah, I was trying to get anything but upper ass is the right way. So they said that nothing went according to plan. She suffered a slow, painful death by fire is what they said, just a absolute horrible awful death. They said that awful. So they said that the prosecutors were exploring a plea bargain for Don under which he would testify that he was hired by Linda because she's the mastermind here. So they put a wire now undone enough with the water. None of these wires have worked, by the way, none of them have worked. They want to look, they want to look real important. Real bad. They're like, well, you're wearing a wire. Yeah, they just like, man, that's how they got John Gotti. That's how we're going to get her like it's got to get all the best criminals. Oh, man. So in the audio, she told him that she was giving him money so that he could disappear, but that's about all they got out of it. That's it. So I'm not going to disappear because of that shit you did. What did I do? Would you do? You got to disappear. So take this money anyway, and you go here, what I did, you tell them what I did, fuck. So during this investigation, the police search Linda's and in the search of her home, they find this is 1997, March of 97. They find two life insurance policies on Lula's life in the amounts of 75,000 and 500,000 designating Linda as the primary beneficiary, along with the third policy designating Gary Linda's husband as the beneficiary in the amount of 200,000, which paid off as we know. That's the net life one. A partnership agreement was also discovered between Linda and Lula with power of attorney granted to Linda from Lula. Now, they said that investigation of the fire, they said the insurance question sort of fell in our laps and pushed this investigation along because they were on the fence, whether it was suicide, accident on purpose, but this says, well, now it was probably on purpose. So if there's money involved, Jesus Christ, yeah, the cop said, quote, the insurance question sort of fell in our laps. That was an unexpected bonus, a weird way to put it. We tried to get the insurance companies to work with us, but they were making inquiries on their own. They're like, yeah, we don't care about murder. We're trying to get money back. Fuck you people. That's how shitty insurance companies are. They're working a murder case of fucking there's a murderer. And they're like, listen, no, we got to recover our fucking 200 grand. Wow. She had bought four policies. They said 75 grand through Met life acquired May 21, 1992. That's the original one 200 grand through Met life on November 15, 1992, 500 grand through nationwide August 22, 1994. And then November 21, 94, less than a month before the fire was a 38,000. That was the truck one there. So only the Met life once said they've been paid that they paid out. They're the only ones that paid out. So they said the investigation was underway before they learned the insurance policies. And they said, yeah, this is great here. So the insurance purchased on Lula's life. They said, according to the federal indictment that's going to be handed down here, they say that Linda posed as her friend for physical examinations and all this kind of shit. They said that insurance agents testified about Linda making inquiries in 1992 about making a claim on her sister's insurance, which she said was Lula Young. She listed herself as the owner of the $75,000 policy and her address as Lula's address. One insurance agent even said that he saw a family tree displayed openly at Linda's home depicting Lula as her sister. She had artwork made. Yeah, she did crafts for this shit. Wow. Um, you don't expect crafty insurance fraud fraud, right? It's like one of those velvet paintings. I think it was. Yeah. It's like a, like a head with like branches coming off of it. So another agent testified Linda made a request for an additional $200,000 policy when he was, when he went to Linda's home to issue the policy, Linda introduced herself as Lula Young. Yeah. Wow. That is fucking amazing. On this policy, Gary, who is Linda's husband, was listed as Young's brother-in-law and listed Linda as her sister. Holy shit. Gary of Gary's garage gats sitting right there, drying his balls off. Glying everything, just collecting money for not having to do shit. He's like, what are you up to? Yeah. I get money. Sure. I can replenish the stock in my fucking shop here by more American Eagle. Oh my God. So the district attorney here said he ran into some problems though because they wanted, they wanted the federal government to do a parallel federal investigation for wire fraud to put pressure on, on her basically. So they had problems with some of the admissibility of the evidence in the murder case. That's the problem, which was illegally seized beyond the scope of his state of search warrants. So they went into drawers and shit when they just had a look around or they went into something when they couldn't look into documents. Overreach. You fucking idiots. Search warrants are so fucking specific and you have to follow them or else you end up with this shit. Right. Also the undercover tape recordings of him also looked admissible and admissible as well. So they weren't good either. So they asked, so they asked, would you prosecute her on federal, federal fraud charges while we sort through this murder shit. That way it'll keep her at least locked up and all that kind of thing. So yeah, that's how it works. And they said that the approved, this is from a book here. The approved way to keep our case clean was to erect what is called a Chinese wall. Let's erect a Chinese wall. Jimmy, what do you say? What is that? It's after the famed Great Wall built to keep out barbarian invaders. The way a legal Chinese wall works is that taint teams, taint teams. Taint teams? Are you kidding me? This feels racist. Holy shit. They come in and just tickle it on up, boy. But as cut out men who examined possibly tainted materials before giving only the admissible items to the trial prosecutors, in this case, they assigned a separate prosecutor to handle the case and received all the evidence and it kind of that's how they screened out the evidence that well, they don't think is good evidence, basically. So then they find out, holy shit, when we're looking through her stuff, there are more murder plots a foot here. She wants her to be dead. There was life insurance policies on a man named Robert Stovall who isn't related to Linda, but he is apparently a ward of Linda's mother listed as his, as his like care giver, even though he's an adult, but he's like mentally challenged. Yeah. So they have. So she's like getting, she's getting SSI for him or whatever. No, she's trying to, she's getting life insurance on him. No, I mean, her mom is getting SSI stuff because he's a war. Yeah. And she's just assisting him, helping him get through day to day and she's got life insurance on this man. They found a policy from Kansas City Life Insurance Company dated November 13, 1995 on the life of Robert Stovall in the amount of $250,000 with Linda named as second beneficiary, an insurance policy and the life of Robert Stovall in the amount of $200,000 where Linda is the primary and her husband is the secondary beneficiary for 50, an application for life insurance in the life on the life of Stovall in the amount of $200,000 along with an accidental death rider for even more. Oh my God. Yes. Melanie writes signature, one of the daughters that appears as the owner and beneficiary. So she's got her kids involved in this now, an identification card with a picture of Charles Wayne Dunne appearing over the name of Robert Stovall along with Linda's address. Oh my God, Linda's address, Dunne's name, Robert's picture. Oh, how fucked up is that? That way, Dunne can get policies in his name for Linda because he had a day, all fucking day. Wow. Two wills also purported to be those of Lula Young they found one day to October 7th, 1994. The other not dated, an insurance identity card in the name of Robert Stovall, an invoice reflecting the sale of a 1995 Nissan to Melanie Wright and Stovall and an installment sales contract bearing the date of August 4th, 1995 with these names appearing as purchasers, an application for credit life insurance and disability insurance for Melanie Wright and Stovall, him, the beneficiary, dated August 4th, 95, three typewriters, different typewriters of different, they can type different because this is before, you know, aerial standard fucking type of change, yep. And three checkbooks from total, from a total accounts from MetLife insurance company indicating Linda as the owner of two policies and her husband as the other of Robert Stovall shit. So finding that the name is creepy, the driver's license with another picture and a different address, that is fucked up. They said, we found out she was trying to make arrangements to do him in just like Ms. Young for insurance purposes. She had already talked to somebody to actually take care of Robert as far as taking him out. She was looking for other hit men, looking for other hit men, that is fucking ridiculous. So wow, and she was listing her daughter as beneficiary, her as some to keep it all off of her. One agent said that she, I guess, Robert Stovall was listed on the application as her son-in-law in other ones too. So she had all these different policies and was telling everybody different shit, which is fucking, yeah, done, we'll later on testify that after Lula's death, Linda approached him with a request that, hey, why don't you kill this guy now too? She didn't give him a reason she wanted him killed, but offered him 10 grand to commit the murder. And he said, fuck yeah, that's a shitload of crack. That's so much crack. That's twice as much as both the other things I did. I guess that's like two full days worth, I'm going to be great, yeah. So that's when he got a fraudulent identification card with his name and the photograph and all that, with money given to him by Linda, he purchased a 1979 Toyota Celica to be used in a car wreck with Stovall and testified that Linda took him to Stovall's hometown to commit the murder. He's going to run into him with a fucking car. They are diabolical, man. He's going to drive with him in the car and get into an accident. That's the plan. In the passenger seat? Like, oh my God. They have like that Vermont lady with her husband, that deal, like at the last second, you know, you're going to crash you unclick a seatbelt and you fucking plow in a brick wall and you fly through it. He flies through it. I think that's the. This is fucked, man. They are vicious people. This is horrible. Yeah, these are some of the more vicious people we've heard about it, even though they're not like, you know, dismembering anybody, it's still horrible. December 1996, Linda is charged with federal mail fraud. So that's what they do, 10 counts of mail fraud fraud, as a matter of fact. They said they got a major lead file. And then the murder people said, we got a major lead following the indictment, just because she's they wanted it all to line up. They said the scheme, you know, talked about the whole scheme, credit life payments were made based on a file claim filed by Linda and other people here. And they said they, one of the charges is a check made out for $8907 that was paid to her estate, which she was the executor and all that the truck one. That's the initial one. Now the MetLife who paid out to own her grand. Yeah. They said that there was nothing to suspect when the company paid off the policies in 95. He said that Lula's death certificate said that she died accidentally in a house fire of carbon monoxide poisoning, resulting from smoking inhalation. Since being notified of the fraud charges, though, he said, we are pursuing recovery efforts. This is part of a trend. We're seeing more and more instances of murder for death benefits and fake disappearances. Yeah. Really? Yeah. There's hundreds of thousands of dollars at stake. That's why more and more of it, huh? As the population grows and more people become more greedy and more people become just kind of hip to what you can do. Like, Oh, shit, you can get away with that reading a fucking story on the internet or in the paper back then. So Lula's daughter said we never knew she was under investigation about momma's death, meaning Linda. She didn't tell us. She said she had told us she was going to court because of the insurance companies have failed to pay off. So she made it seem like she was going to court fighting for her share, fighting, like taking them to court, not she's under federal indictment. I'm going to court about insurance stuff. They won't pay. They won't pay. So they said, well, did you get any money from your mother's anything? Yeah. And she said, well, me and my brother Michael split about $500 from the old policy at the Baptist hospital. You didn't know about the federal charges until I talked to my father in Texas when the story first came out. One of the hardest things I've ever had to do was tell Michael what was going on. They got $500 for their mother's death. And this lady's got hundreds of hundreds of thousands of dollars. Unbelievable. What a scumbag. That is wild. Lula's sister said she was stunned in October. The news hit that Linda was under investigation because of these life insurance policies. She said, I've I had gone beyond shock. I had not heard that she was under investigation on the murder charge until the indictments were returned. But I can't say it surprised me by that point. The mail fraud charges here, conviction on all counts could result in a maximum of a two and a half million dollar fine and 50 years in prison. Don't do that. Which is more than more than fucking like, you know, second degree murder abuse. Oh, by far, 50 years. Holy shit. Don't fuck with the fucking years. That's what happens when you are an insurance company and 20% of your budget is in lobbying. That's what you get. You get hardcore penalties for fucking you over. They also know when when the penalties are that stiff for fucking them over, they know how hard they're fucking you over and they know that somebody's going to be fed up with this shit. So someone's going to try it even under that kind of penalty. Yeah. It's worth it. You're playing chicken, so the murder investigation, they, the flora, the mom here, Lula's mom, said she first learned there was an investigation into her daughter's death when a postal inspector visited her. Like we said before, she said, I never knew there were four policies or the amounts of these policies until I read about them in the commercial appeal in the newspaper. The fucking investigators didn't even tell her. Wow. She said, I didn't, I don't know how anyone could be so cold. Maybe when people start getting ahead, they just want more and more maybe or she's just a greedy twat. Yeah, she's an asshole. After the indictments, I don't know that I could see Linda again. That's what she said. So now the cop said we knew as early as January of 95 that Linda was responsible for the death, but we didn't know who the torch was. That's what the guy says. The torch. The torch. We were looking for the flamer just so you know. We didn't know who the torch was. I had to say it like this is so douchey. That's district attorney champion of DeSoto counted. D.A. champion. The guy's a crack at it and you couldn't find him. So we didn't know who the torch was until he literally came to you. You fucking morons. You couldn't even use a wire correctly. The torch. Jesus Christ. Who's the flamer here? Fuck Linda's attorney is a good attorney actually. He's a former US attorney named Bob Whitwell and he's now does criminal defense here. He I guess originally only handled civil litigation and he said he in this book they say he swore when he left the US attorney's office he'd never handle a criminal case. But he was he said his friend said that Bob the attorney was a very religious and kindhearted man and when Linda came to him with a sob story about how the D.A. John champion was persecuting her while she was still in mourning the death of her best friend. This guy thought that was beyond the pale of egregious and agreed to take the case for nothing pro bono. Oh my. I'm going to stay there. Do it. He was wrong. Yeah. They're doing you wrong. Stick it in and break it off sister. Oh man. So there he is but they said that he challenged the admissibility of the evidence and when that failed he asked for and received a federal mental exam for Linda but they said she's just regular fucked up not she's got some mental problems but nothing that would cause her to you know have hallucinations or anything that would be a normal dickhead. She actually is not a legally crazy person person she's just a bit of a dickhead bit of an asshole. So Lula's daughter here said that she had made a maintained contact with Linda with Lula's mother here and our Linda had maintained contact with Lula's mother Flora really yeah she said oh this is the sister this I'm sorry Lula's sister said this she said she had called mama from time to time just to check to see how she was doing from the day of the funeral until last fall and she said how could any woman look you in the eye if she had taken your child and killed her or because she's a piece of shit she's tough cold blooded mother fucker that's why that's rough Lula said she was good or Lula's mom here said she was good to Lula or so we thought I met Linda a number of times but I guess I'm not a very I guess I'm just not a very good judge of folks I took Lula's word that's so sad or you've just got a good heart just your normal lady and she she snowed everybody yeah I mean she is she snowed her fucking lawyer who should know that yeah the lawyer who's a fucking US attorney she shouldn't trust a soul no she snowed all these insurance people but she was a different person this lady's a fucking liar period a professional liar so man she said that she recalled that Linda was one of the mourners there at the funeral and she said at the wake Linda told me my feelings are hurt you didn't put me down as a sister in the death notice that's what she was worried about wow so March 1997 everybody gets arrested here round them up that includes Linda Charles is already arrested but now we're gonna have Gary be arrested oh yeah close your shot down Gary is he also on federal gun charges as well is this just the mail to just sell guns out of your garage doesn't shouldn't be able to and it just says Gary's gun show out there and like it's a show I don't like this I think you have to be licensed and have like a certain you should have to have some sort of tax stamp of something also a garage is not secure enough place to keep armaments gun shops are secure right they're very secure they are in the windows and or those accordion things that come out yeah you know I mean because there's stealable fucking usable weapons of the destruction holy shit so anyway they not only indict Linda and Gary they also Jennifer 26 year old daughter come on down what that bitch do she let them burn her house down for sure right also 24 year old Melanie come on down listen yourself on the stove all affair and it's it's wire fraud oh oh the entire nuclear family is in the pokey together mom dad and kids you rarely see them all arrested in any case how many cases have we done we're entire nuclear family goes to that I have Steve Harvey ask him questions while they're in there if they have another jailed family yeah it's the prison family feud across the south here they come yeah Steve's wearing his big big square suits and they're all dragging heavy iron balls behind them that are attached to their ankle that's the different hold on Steve almost there wait a second yeah wow the three Gary Jennifer and Melanie are freed on bond like $50,000 bond where Linda is held without bond because she's in on capital murder that's yeah she's in trouble yeah she's in deep shit Gary was indicted on a charge of obtaining money under false pretenses the two daughters were indicted on identical charges of conspiracy to commit arson arson and conspiracy to commit false pretense yeah which I didn't know was a crime Gary and the two daughters were being held under 50,000 and they got released charges against them stem from the fire at Jennifer's home obviously so this is a fucking disaster clearly then she's indicted for murder as we say and they said Linda has this is the prosecutor Linda lead him has gone from this person that everybody knew and liked to basically a criminal mastermind yeah I would say so she's pretty fucked now the only thing is in her federal mail fraud trial the government agreed to not make cross references to murder or other frauds related or unrelated only the charges they've charged just focusing on the mail stuff so don't yeah don't focus in on the fact that she used that mail fraud to murder a woman and try to get money off of it just that she posed as someone else to get money so they said it's not to be considered as relevant offense offense conduct in this case so she's fucked I mean she got paid out more than $300,000 there's paperwork and checks and deposits I mean there's no way to say I don't know what you're talking about here so she is going to enter a guilty plea before U.S. District Judge Glenn Davidson to three counts of a 10 count indictment sentencing they make a deal with her sentencing is going to be a maximum of 15 years in prison that's what she could get and a $750,000 fine her daughter began the also guilty pleas here and she agreed to a sentence of two years for conviction on one count of mail fraud that's the daughter following that Linda enters the courtroom bound in chains and wearing her orange prison pants and shirt she made no statements to the judge just yes sir no sir type shit they asked her if she was on medication for depression oh she said she was on medication for depression and for diabetes but everybody said she's fine and competent to plead guilty so they said she collected 275 grand for met life on two different policies but sued nationwide when the firm balked at paying a claim on 500 grand she tried to sue them that's the balls of this lady wow man I mean you have to though because otherwise you're if they don't pay you got to go yeah I know I shouldn't get the money that's crazy she is sentenced to you ma'am may fuck off 27 months in prison oh for the federal shit for the fraud three years of supervised release and assessed $150 $50 for each count is a fine and ordered that they make restitution of $275,000 so she owes $275,000 so October 2nd 98 Charles Wayne Dunn plead guilty to murder conspiracy to commit murder and arson he is going to receive you sir may fuck off two concurrent 20 year sentences so that's 20 years and then life with no parole and that's a deal that's a deal he made oh my the death penalty was on the table for him yeah yeah and it was on the table for her yeah but he's the actual murder so they were gonna he threatened him with that he's the torch yeah he's the torch baby Gary's a big for Charles is a big flamer we know that so the insurance fraud I think that's how that works now August 1999 the trial Linda's murder trial the state elected to trial Linda for conspiracy to commit capital murder and capital murder and prior to the trial moved to amend the indictment to charge her as a habitual offender because now she is convicted convicted federally so no habitual offender which makes her sentencing worse it's a seven woman five man jury and opening statements here prosecutor this is John champion he said that young meaning Lula had been diagnosed with terminal breast cancer and had a radical mastectomy but that the medical examinations for the insurance policies showed no evidence of the diagnosis so he said Linda told insurance agencies she was Lula posing as Linda did the examinations at her house they said these policies were issued by fraudulent statements and medical exams Linda stood to gain nine hundred seventy five thousand dollars in the in the case of an accidental death of Lula young they said that done confessed to the thing got five thousand dollars said he killed her done said quote Lula wants this done she wants to be put out of her misery that's what Linda had told done that's what they tell an opening statements the defense on the other hand they go come on I mean you know I don't know how to do that who would put somebody out of their misery by light man you are not something that your friend your friend come on nobody kills a friend so he says listen his client and the victim concocted this scheme together the victim was ill and wanted the insurance benefits for when she died for her children and that's what it's all about so this is ridiculous as she would never have killed her for that money then so she said that this is the hair lawyer told the jury that lead him had schemed with young to get the insurance money for her young children on one policy they said the beneficiaries were changed from Lula's children to Linda's children because her children weren't responsible enough at that point so they said this is a quote from the one of the prosecutors Linda's defense was she was doing what Lula wanted entertaining those policies fraudulently the plan was for her to be the recipient of the money because the kids supposedly couldn't handle money Charles Dunn testifies they get Brenda driver in there to go I saw her fucking Walmart after I heard she was dead it was crazy that's not even a lady that's dead I mean imagine on the big because they put it up on like what the big things to the jury can see it like a big projection of all the policies they found imagine that that is fucking insanity so in closing arguments the prosecution here district attorney Bobby Williams said it's a clear convincing case what are we doing he said it's a mountain of evidence was found in her desk in her own desk when a search warrant was served that shows all the insurance frauds approves this and look who's collecting the money it's her so you don't have to connect a lot of dots here the defense here in their closing arguments William Massey who's got to do some tap dance in here yep he is going to be the like a metropolitan ballerina when he's fucking done with this he's gonna be here wedding yeah wow he said that I don't challenge the insurance fraud aspects of the case that we don't challenge that was a scheme that they can not concocted together so there's only one person to take the fall for that and that's Linda she already did so that's fine okay but the murder it's all that done guy it's all everything yeah he did everything he doesn't get any benefit for it he just wanted to kill an old us not an old just wanted to kill a lady who just beat cancer thought it would be fun apparently yeah she said he said done is the murderer he is an arsonist and he's a liar okay that's it he said he didn't get paid five thousand dollars from Linda that's bullshit that's their thing there he said his motive the motive for Duns testimony was a deal with the district attorney through which Dun avoid the death penalty so he had to say those things right okay so the verdict comes in she is found guilty of capital murder and conspiracy to commit capital murder not good um the yeah um not good at all now sentencing comes around Lula's younger brother here he's pissed off rightfully so um yeah he said she's taken out of her she's taken a lot out of our lives meaning Linda and spoke of Lula and said she didn't she wasn't ready to die when she did now we don't even have her here make sense uh and they he was asking for the maximum sentence oh really Linda that's what he's asking for please give Linda the maximum sentence the judge oh boy he is good this one he spoke of their long-term friendship this woman trusted you yeah for almost 20 years you were each other's you like sisters together she he said quote I know you must have cared for her but her death was planned for a long time that's the cruelest part of this whole thing yeah quote you are a cruel person you don't deserve to ever walk the streets of Mississippi or anywhere else and you won't you will die in prison you ma'am yeah may fuck off life in prison no parole dicks eating the dick eating buffet is that way fuck off you don't even deserve to walk in Mississippi not even in Mississippi not even through one of like the soft marshy shit not even that oh by the way another 20 years for conspiracy just for shits and giggles why not and guess what we're gonna run those consecutively by the way so that's when you're dead another 20 we want out of you which is pretty fucking awesome oh boy so they said that she will serve her sentence at rank in county prison near Jackson where women are sentenced there they said uh as that's what they told her and then as two bailiffs lead Linda from the courtroom hands and feet shackled out of nowhere she begins cackling out loud laughing what that's a sick bitch that is she laughed like de Niro and Cape Fear just maniacal bitch that is crazy think about how many people have been sentenced to life without parole plus 20 yeah cackled on their way out she it is funny because she was about to murder somebody else James that's fucking hilarious i don't even think john gaudy did that that's crazy cackling cackling so her reactions here lula son said this mike linda lead him was the greediest most selfish cold-hearted person that i ever met linda lead him is exactly where she needs to be my mom looked at the good and everyone my mom tried to help anyone that she can with whatever she could lula's brother said what i never understood though is how you can go from friendship to that good question yeah he said you know it just that's that's the part i just never understood he's just he doesn't even know what to say i mean the guys how how do you understood see what they were best friends yeah uh lula's younger sister Margaret um said that um quote i'm satisfied with the way that it came out the way it should she'll be there until she dies she's not uh or she's going to have a long long time to think about what she's done and all the pain she's caused then they go hey what about russ our stove all there yeah what about him remember him Robert stove all well the da said the state is not going to prosecute her further really they yep they remanded three forgery counts against her for trial but they said those were not be prosecuted and neither will the the stove all affair at that point yeah they said that uh they also dis that's that's for the fraud on stove all but then they said they dismissed a charge of conspiracy to commit murder against her as well because for stove all because they had another charge locked and loaded but she got life without plus 20 so they said fuck it which they can always do it later they can always charge her in case like she got off on appeal uh yeah on the other one they could charge her with this one so they just kind of keep it in the back pocket there um so i guess her family serves as her guardian at their home oh that's the okay yeah on stove all that's right so 2001 Linda appeals uh-huh she appeals protesting evidence presented at her trial that she and done had planned similar murder for insurance conspiracies involving robert robert stove all her testimony about that conspiracy says that had nothing to do with this case because it's other bad acts it's that's future bad acts it's not a prior even it's future Linda argues or her defense does that stove all plan cannot demonstrate anything meaningful regarding motive opportunity intent preparation plan knowledge identity or absence of mistake so basically you can't introduce that that doesn't mean anything and they said no the the state said defendants on trial for bank larceny objected to the state introducing evidence that they committed a second bank larceny the next day we concluded that the evidence that the defendants went into a second bank reenacting essentially the same manner of theft that had occurred the day before showed they had acted according to a premeditated plan in the larceny charged um with more probable than without such evidence so they said this is the same thing the fact that there is other crime evidence showing that she had essentially the same plan in preparation to kill robert stoveall yeah has a tendency to make the fact that she and done we're acting according to a premeditated plan or agreement pretty fucking obvious what we're doing here basically so uh they say that um that's part of that and the judge though disagreed and upheld the conviction says and i don't think so get the fucking there citing the other crime evidence as proof that they conspired together he said there's also testimony that linda posed as robert stoveall's relative in order to take out insurance policies much as she had done with young same thing right he said the policies on stoveall to whom she's not related were found in a search and this is crazy he said quote the stoveall evidence clearly demonstrates that lead a may have acted according to a predetermined plan to kill young and that's admissible unbelievable also said the trial judge properly instructed the jury on how to consider the evidence presented on him as well so there you go um yeah so that she's tries also certain very legalistic things she's trying to uh they said that in terms of different counts of the insurance they said one count nine of that indictment alleged that on january 30th 95 lead and committed mail fraud referring to her use of the mail to send a claim to uh on lula's life even assuming uh that two counts relating to met life were a single incident count nine involving an entirely different insurance companies a separate incident an attempt made by linda to commit insurance fraud so no error so that's the type of it's they're getting real ticket happy with all with all this shit yeah um also the jury instruction she said that the jury should have been instructed on kamira's conspiracy to commit manslaughter and manslaughter instructions because the indictment insufficiently identified the type of felony she was charged with she argues the indictment failed to specifically assert felony arson so she could have been charged with misdemeanor arson under that code the judge could have said that so that that's a person who recklessly or with gross malice causes a fire to be communicated to any woods meadow marshfield or prairie not his own that's misdemeanor arson if you accidentally set a fire in the woods somebody else is shit that's very yeah that's not even a house that's a whole separate charge so uh they say fuck off back to prison with you now lula's daughter the whole thing she said this is a good wrap up i felt the ultimate betrayal my mother trusted linda lead him with her life and that's what it cost her yeah so very good that was a really succinct way to wrap that up beautiful she's been thinking about it for a while yeah that's a good quote uh now lula is buried at the la floor cemetery in granada county mississippi um she was 47 when she died she's a tv tv shows the story was profiled on several a couple of them here one is stolen voices buried secrets out of the ashes yep that's can't do that wow stolen voices buried secrets out of the action you can't do out of the ashes when the woman was burned alive i think that's why they did it that's the name of the episode or is that the whole series that's the name of the episode out of the ashes yeah and there's also i killed my bff that's a show that was on i killed my bff was a show an actual show what a oh mg i killed my bff wow oh mg i killed my bff lol sad face emoji that's what it's called where are we um and the episode name is mississippi mom's yeah now under the trailer for that on youtube is a weird exchange of comments oh one says i'm using a friend's account i'm the granddaughter of linda leadam my grandmother is innocent my friend even agrees that this is false okay well your grandma's a fucking nightmare lady well it's replied to yeah by stacey young which is uh oh that's linda oh oh that's the daughter lula's daughter lula's daughter she said i'm the daughter of the victim if she was innocent the state wouldn't have convicted her that's all she says fuck off enjoy enjoy christmas and the clink you dick-ass don't mean to be mean to you but fuck you now your grandpa's a piece of shit too no shit i would like to say here because we normally will do this on crime and sports we do the not really as sorry as and we do people with the same name there are there there are people in in walks of life that definitely don't want to share the name of an arsonist murderer here one is linda leadam she's a nurse oh she's in Nashville oh so that's tough because linda linda was a nurse too that's rough uh at the centennial surgery center hey don't be afraid of her yeah she won't take out insurance policies and burn you to alive in your own house she's fine i'm sure she does a fantastic job also this is the worst one because it's on signs everywhere yeah linda leadam a real estate agent in pennsylvania oh no that's rough man and also i found charles wane done phd professor emeritus emeritus at regent university who has a phd has written like ten fucking books yeah and uh a distinguished career in government service and academia serving at one point as dean of the robertson school of government and distinguished professor of government he's the author of 19 books wow charles not the same idiot i don't think a crack had who killed people now now that we got that crazy fucking batshit story over with uh do want to do a quick update here oh yeah yeah oh tisco new york i believe it was episode number eight eight nine i think it was eight nine might have been nine eight or nine it's the one from o tisco new york so whichever one that is way way long time ago yeah the first fucking shit three two months of our show this show there's a woman named surely winters who was one of the sickest people we've ever talked about uh she was uh pleaded guilty to manslaughter in 2008 of in the death of a two-year-old who she drowned in a bathtub where she was staying that led to her admitting that she also caused the 1980 death of her son but also exhumations and autopsies showed that two of her other children Colleen and johnny who'd been found dead after a 1979 fire suffered blunt trauma to the head before the fire yeah she killed all kids a monster she was responsible for 18 fires that they know of right 18 including ones where her people were fucking charred and she killed her fucking children she's a sick fucking lady sick bitch she was up for parole here and she was granted parole we'll say again two weeks ago what was granted parole yes uh 20 years that is not yeah she'll be on parole the district attorney uh bill Fitzpatrick believes that she's not done by the way no he's straight upset in the newspaper on the internet we initially tried to see if we could have her have her civilly committed and my law people tell me that can't be done i will insist that wherever she is anybody with a child anybody who's not physically able to take care of themselves elderly or child be notified of her existence in the community she lives to kill she is the torch she is a fucking yeah lives to kill what a thing to say my god she's like a demon yeah she will she was released from prison and was placed in a secure psychiatric facility for the foreseeable future apparently they have to make sure she's not loony here her own daughter warns that her mom who killed two kids and maybe more will commit more crimes she survived the woman she said quote i'm absolutely terrified this is her own daughter yeah there is absolutely no way a serial arsonist and serial child murderer should be able to earn good time in prison because of course she's good in jail yeah it's her perfect environment she has medicine it's controlled she has care and her favorite victims aren't present right exactly um her daughter joy is working with the d.a in an and an arson investigator uh and a state senator to make changes that wouldn't allow repeat violent offenders to earn good time she said and so i still want to pursue the mission of addressing the problems with the law and changing it because not only is she a problem but there's also lots of other people who should be evaluated the same way she said she's using her story to show how this law affected people just like her she said i think that showing my face and expressing my concern in this way make people feel like they should be more concerned and more people will get involved in making the change and maybe even vote for it if it's put up for a vote okay uh she said she feels some relief that her mom's gonna be put in a home but not not a lot and she still needs answers right she said i'm hopeful that maybe they've done some kind of assessment or something's happened that makes them believe she needs to be committed for a longer period of time and we're just unaware what that time could mean yeah because this is a horrible lady is hoping they'll keep her locked up how old did she uh i think 68 that's not old enough not all this plenty of energy left he said my dad's at age he hopped on a harley fuck that she's got very easily head on down to the diamond shamrock and pick up a bit lighter oh boy i would say so uh she also says she's going to be released into the public and she's going to move in next to somebody from everybody that are everything that i know about her if you make her angry she's coming after you so if she doesn't like the way her neighbor looks at her what's going to happen to their children or their home because not only does she murder children she burns down people's homes and businesses wow joy said her mother her mother fits the same profile as other prolific serial killers who appeared normal yeah she said she never shows you who she truly is until she's standing outside your house with a can of gas or standing over the soaking wet body of your child and by then it's too late holy shit damn she's far too close i am terrified of this woman please keep her away we're in the same state and she is definitely gonna be mad at us because we laughed our asses off and what a fucking idiot she is so yeah she's gonna hate our guts so uh everybody i'm gonna be putting around large gate around my house so please donate to our patreon my gate fund to keep Shirley Winters from murdering me in my own house and she is not burning into the fucking ground she's awesome everything so that was i figure this episode's the perfect one to put the update on she doesn't get me better so if you like this episode or any of the episodes tell the world about a kid on whatever app you're on there's always a place you can do reviews if you kind of scroll down and there's always you'll see stars look on them give us five stars tell us anything it doesn't matter so you could say something nice about the show you can tell us what your favorite size of radial tire is my too shit yeah what's great i will agree with you but definitely do that give a review it helps out a lot also head to shut up and give me murder dot com get your tickets now dura may 31st it's on baby we can't wait let's get there there's a few tickets left so get them next night Nashville is sold out let's see what you guys can bring because every year we do amongst ourselves a little contest where we say who is the loudest shut up and give me murder yellers there are when we do 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you get all of this for uh crime in sports we're gonna talk about the oj simpson trial what went wrong how the fuck do you go from having dna and all this evidence to not guilty i'll tell you exactly how it happened and it's not what you think it is most of it is pure unmitigated incompetence that's most of it all right that's most of it and they have been tried to put on different things over the years but when you watch it you go oh i see exactly what's happening here terrific there's people here who are terrible at their jobs we have dumb dums here and it's not even the people you think so we'll get into all of that then for small town murder something very creepy gross and just interesting inside ed gain's house horrific that's how a day in the life of ed gain what's he up to and then all of the things he has stored in his house all the creepy shit we'll do an inventory in his fucking gross we'll talk all about it can't wait to do that patreon.com slash crime in sports and you're up for a shout out which happens quite fucking now jimmy hit me with those names but please please don't take out any extra insurance on me hit me with him now this week's detective producer Jordan Bennett and erica norris who is a rock star congratulations erica hanging there you're doing great thank you so much yes yes this week james are paten meadows john de long andrew snow janice hill kim w anthony retic and somerville cala with no last name angela anderson dave barstell christen with no last name brack's with no last name alison barnill adri burch kick with no last name crake jex elixis m Sheila croucher landin would no last name a darius king senior jv zoey kowin crystal tyler alison prince brandon lakler anamari maria pops a cue pop a skew pop a skew carla with no last name ben stain brook sherin mottie sabrina ligon lygan uh amber hanky as scott anderson jennifer hobson man bear pug oh it's it's man man bear pug 26 what's a man bear pig what is that uh i don't know just something like man bear and oh yeah men bears and pigs man bear with a man bear pig it's a small town murder thing i think i don't remember yeah scott neater mire uh laura krow sam rodman rebecca with no last name ashley with no last name a man a land drew bittner lin little heather roach mckenzie ranslow me too uh marissa yate zack dulaney uh zoey doring guss ericson sera warbus warbus warbus samantha dehasus karen would no last name c dragon shimmy jimmy roach victoria tomsen jim landrum patty would no last name jato hues lee macklin uh we in the spirit world asshole i don't know what that means but we are it's there we there we are carls isofsky is of offs is of zoo foskey uh Ian pape pappy maybe kathryn forester priest karen pryest maybe i don't know lee boyd not only you'll not only you'll then oh she's fantastic uh angela goober jole a signer oh and ead's care would no last name a Linda rindinger uh don the male lady waltter hello don kevin roy's uh and anya anya zawadzka anya anya zawadzka all right nicole simon jandy snow jill chitman chip man uh tiffany wilson tyler tyler mick millen christopher nope that's crystal sregovitz sregovitz uh mat hein aimee mary reaves kyle patterson melissa watson kelsey clark kitty karsa kitty garza shawn uh moton cat young nakita elizabeth autumn with no last name debra rapezi uh just in ben ben scoder taren morgan michael zaharis zaharias uh david doogan griggy 409 jio chow craft christopher perry lisa rondi rondi maybe hillbilly deluxe that's a great song little drop kick jeremy keopie k cope uh chris koll kevin pruett heide kaiyutae gayeta gayeta uh nakole lauria verieria lauria verierchi sam young cm ethan uh the letter c and m ethan neel whitney with no last name caramel drizzle carmel drizzle sera gregory michael konneboy uh britney britney ryan robert coastam kennamathis sabrina argilla morgan snider channa carter diane clifton matthew harvey shannon brant a williams gall gale gale with no last name oma julie d and b uh lisa greg exavier with no last name chris voorhees fin hi jason reagan uh terry harden jonathan chatfield rachel kaputo kaputo uh kevin mccormick family mushroom michelle scrozzie do you is that right absolutely uh abigail kritenden kary atkins gayla gayla win morrow uh jasker it bahura not that no no one knew my family with that last name bahura no bahura kaputo yes that no i got a cousin named jasker it uh uh yeah i mean the whole last name the runes picked the letters jessica right loyd doppler doppler maybe jake clark uh marylin lackey well man hoorhey p amy a a bear uh dorian man lisa quigley stinky butt contraris just an elmore kevansan becky remington kathryn stumberg laughhead uh jane would know last name kia would know last name riley patterson lyn pet terence mccall no that's terence carol uh sweet poop potatoes yuck what the fuck joanna uh man a bat man a bat uh kori helmorex emily wrang jason would know last name jane would know last name josh will cross and you would know last name donna fullerton tyler showing matt denis luren would know last name rachel carver mafar well jake larson ben smith jana hartwood j kass magna net magna garro what is this it's just a name james one word magna garro uh james would know last name misty shook adam booth kameron would know last name carolin fissure kate trober uh anderson edison and no it's andrew cara clara shuler charles kestania and uh amanda b rubin best joustin brockway allen cruz elizabeth night angie press to guard yep amoreen would know last name laura hinchcliffe uh jenna lyn luren hart milo jones cody and all of our patrons thank you oh so much thank you so much everybody honestly from the bottom of our fucking hearts we cannot thank you enough for all that you do for us seriously we just thank you for everything you do uh everything you do and even just spreading the show just telling your friends about it on either just funny podcast it helps so much anybody we could put ads out and it wouldn't matter for that change thing yeah the thing you listen to is when somebody no one wants to be advertised to but when your friend goes i laugh my ass off at this show they go oh shit we have the same sense of humor what do you know is that yeah you're looking for that so it helps a lot do that spread it on social media speak in a social media if you want to follow us on social media head over to shut up and give me murder dot com drop down menu links to all that shit and uh like we always say until next week everybody it has been our pleasure if you like small town murder you can listen early and add free now by joining wonderie plus in the wonderie app or on apple podcast prime members can listen early and add free on amazon music before you go tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wonderie dot com slash survey oh who the fuck is supposed to be on the parkman drive job this morning where did i put this week's schedule oh that's right i spilled coffee on it are you a 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