(upbeat music) - Welcome to "Wallowing in the Shallows," the podcast that skirts the perilous drop off of a deep dive into television and movies. We are academic nerds aspiring to become TV and movie geeks. There are no spoiler cards in the shallows, so listen at your own risk. This week, join us for a while and a Buffy the Vampire Slayer, season two, rewatch. (upbeat music) - Hey, hello, peeps. Welcome to "Wallowing in the Shallows," this is Tori. - And this is Rebecca. And today we are talking about Buffy the Vampire Slayer, season two, episode 20, Go Fish. - What'd you think? - Not nearly as good as the last two episodes. I must admit, I do like kind of the double meaning of Go Fish, just the fishiness, and then just how obsessed. I mean, everyone had swim team fever, so it's like, Go Fish, like the fish or the swimmers. So that's the best thing I can say about this episode. - Yeah, "Rolling Stone" doesn't rank it super high, it's 106. - Now, that's not that far from the previous episode, right? - Was it the previous episode 90 something? - 94, yeah. - Oh, be oh, there should be so much more difference between these two. (laughing) - Well, I think, you know, when we were talking about, I only had eyes for you. I think, again, it takes a while for people to really appreciate that one, and you have to watch it, I think, a few times for most people. Like I said, last time watching it for the podcast was when I really kind of really started appreciating it because I was watching it much more critically, so. So maybe that's why, you know, who knows how many times the Rolling Stone people watched it. - Yeah, that's a good point. I don't know, I guess, remember how in the last episode, I was kind of like, boy, this horror was actually kind of scary, kind of faltergeisty. - Uh-huh. - No, a little bit more elevated. - Uh-huh. - This episode, the scary stuff, the word I would use is schlocky, you know? - Sure. - So it just, what a turn on a dime on almost every aspect, I would say. - Yeah, it was very much like the 19, between, well, the 1950s kind of black and white horror films that were schlocky, by our standards today, so. - And, oh my God, I really have some notes about some stuff that is not aged well. - Oh yeah. - So, there were several places in this that just sort of, I was like, no, not yet. This is an episode I could've missed. - Yeah, and you'll forget about it quickly. - Yeah, I'm sure I'm sure I will. I'm sure I will. - I do have a summary, I wrote it myself. - Oh, perfect, please continue. - All righty, Sunnydale state championship, bound swim team members are disappearing, and it's up to the Scooby Gang to figure out what's fishy. - Love it, well done. - You know, you could make a career with us. (laughing) - Little supplement to the retirement fund. - Absolutely. - Well, was written by David Fury, and I guess, and he's in this, I think pretty much to the end from this point on, so, and I read, or the guy from the metaphor book, says this was his first episode, I was like, really? But he wrote it along with this person named Ellen Hamilton, who I had never heard of before, and then it was directed by David Simel, who I think has directed for them before. So just thrown that out there. - Yeah, well, I'm not going to give big props to the writing. I would say, I'm a little surprised, we haven't had more beach in this show, just period. I kinda liked how we started one, the beach vibes, and I was like, oh, the fish are gonna come out of the sea, you know, and the big bonfire and everything. No, you know, my high school had an amazing swim team. I mean, like state, regularly, people who went to Olympic trials, you know, this kind of stuff. And there was never the fervor for those athletes, the way this school went crazy. And I mean, my school deserved it. Those that, both the women and the men, they kicked butt year after year. So I found that humorous. - Maybe it's a California thing. You know, it's Midwesterners, if it isn't football or basketball. - I will also say, they clearly did not pick actual swimmers for the athletes. - No, I was like, these guys look like they should be playing football. - And so, yes, so, so I had notes, but whatever, whatever, moving on. So we've got the beach victory party. - Yeah. - And God, what God, what God a name is? Dodd McAlvey. I wonder where the God is. - I don't know, that is really, sorry if there's anybody out there actually named Dodd McAlvey, but that's a stupid name. - I mean, seriously. And we only see him for like two seconds with his hot off gene jacket before he loses his skin and becomes a fish. So Dodd is quick in and out. - Yeah, and how did Gage not hear him changing? - All they ever do is hear the smell. I mean, not hear the smell. (laughing) - I'm just gonna say they will. - They only hear the smell. They only smell it. They smell that they must think inside when they emerge from the skin. - Well, fish are stinky. - Well, yes, I guess so. - You know, when they're in their raw state. Well, I think they stink even when they're cooked, but. (laughing) - Well, these are some big fish. So there's a big sting. - Yeah. I mean, most obvious shout out to the creatures from the Black Lagoon. It's like, okay, let's not even try to hide it. - Oh, that's right. 'Cause later when Cordelia says creature from the blue lagoon, that's why Xander says Brooke Shields. And I was like, no, she's right. It's Black Lagoon. Okay, okay, I was right with Cordelia. So, okay, thank you. That clears that clears a little missing link up for me. - I know, I laugh really hard though. When Xander does say, no, the creature from the blue lagoon is Brooke Shields. (laughing) I was like, and of course, I'm thinking, I forgot about that line, but I was in my head going, oh, that's Brooke Shields. And I can't remember the name of the guy in that. I never can. But doesn't matter. Atkins, I think, it's the real American hero. Right? - I thought, no. - No, that's somebody else. - But isn't Atkins? - I think you're right. I think it is Christopher Atkins, but that's not it. - But the real American hero is somebody else. - Correct. - Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah. I think that's right. - Yeah. Yeah. - I was, I just, I just should acquit while I was ahead. And not trying, I know that the same guy did a short stint on the show Dallas, but-- - The guy playing Dodd? - Christopher, no, no, no, I'm sorry, Christopher Atkins. - Oh, okay. - Anyway. - Okay. - Let's go, let's get back to Dodd. Let's get back to Dodd. Let's get the hell out of Dodd. - Oh, nice one. - Thank you. - Thank you. - Did that just come off the top of your head? - It sure did. - Nice. - It sure did, who, who, who do it? (laughing) - Speaking of Dodd, I thought maybe it was Dodd making the pass or trying to not make a pass just be super cool and then become super predatory later, but, but that was Cam Cameron. - Right, right. - And what's up, Cameron Walker? A true mother giving birth to new life and devouring the old? - Yeah, I was, I was like, boy. - This guy is really laying it on. Trying to be all deep and poetic about the ocean and see Buffy how deep I am, intellectual. - But I'm gonna become a total incomplete ass. - Oh my God. - In 12 hours. - Yeah, yeah. I do like in the beach scene where Cordelia and Willow and Xander are talking and Cordelia's like, "It's a back time our school has sounded something." - Willow is like, "You forgetting our high mortality rate?" - And Xander yells, "We're number one." - I, I had that doubt. That was very good. Shout out high mortality rate. - Yes, and I don't know if you remember 'cause I mentioned this background actor last week. The Winking Girl who was in the hallway scene and be which is bothered and bewildered. She's dancing in the background in this scene. - Mr. Again. - I missed her again. - Yeah, I'm just gonna refer to her now as the Winking Girl. It'll be interesting to see if she continues on in season three. - Yeah, keep an eye on her for me. Maybe one of these days I'll recognize her. - We'll do. So yeah, and I think, you know, Buffy gives us a little glimpse into what's going on inside her head when I'm saying that they go swim in the ocean, they swim against the current and she's like, "That's how I feel most of the time." Totally. - Yep, yeah. And poor, squiggy. - Oh, yes, Jonathan. - Jonathan, yeah. - Is that his, yes. - Jonathan, yeah. - I'd like to call him squiggy. Jonathan always shows up when somebody needs to be picked on. - Yeah, he's the little guy. - Yeah. - But with that scene with Jonathan and then of course Buffy stepping in to help him out kind of really hearkens back to the Halloween episode. - Yes. - When Xander gets mad at her for help, when she helps him out with Larry. - Right. But you know, Buffy just can't help herself. - Well, you know, these luckily, so in the exact opposite, gauge after Buffy helps him is like, "Walk me home." - Yeah, so I mean, at first gauge and actually understandably, gauge is like, "Why the hell are you following me around?" Right? I mean, because she is just 10 feet away from him nonstop. So I could not begrudge him his response, but then when she does save him from an angel, who he was gonna be all right anyway, 'cause he was poison fish blood. - Yeah. - That, I think that's an appropriate reaction. Okay, you save my butt. There are things around here I can't understand. Yes, you seem to be powerful. Please, I will accept your protection. - Yeah, yeah. Did you recognize that actor playing gauge? - Yes, yes I did. I looked him up. I was like, "That guy looks familiar. "He looks like a baby, but he looks so familiar." Wentworth Miller? - Yeah. - And I did not watch all the show, but I did start it. I know he was in prison break. - Mm-hmm. - I think, but I know he's been in other stuff, but I think prison break is sort of what I recognized him from. - Yeah, I think that was one of his big roles, that in Legends of Tomorrow. Neither of which, neither of which, there we go. - Yeah, you bet. - Tori's amazing command of the English language. I have to have it watched either of those, but I did recognize him from Underworld, the movie. - Okay. I'm not sure, I may have seen it. I'm not remembering it well. - Yeah, it's that werewolf vampire one. - Okay, okay. - With Kate Beckinsale or, it's not, Beckinsale? - Yeah, it's Beckinsale. - Yeah. - Yes, I'm just gonna go with prison break. I recognize him. (laughing) - Of course, I know him, 'cause this is his first TV appearance at Buffy. So, I mean, Buffy is what I first know him from, but I knew I had seen him in other things, and I was looking at his stuff, and I'm like, oh, it's gotta be Underworld, but evidently he was in two Mariah Carey videos. - Well, what do you know? - Yeah. I thought, okay, that's an interesting little career note. - Yeah, maybe he's either got some moves or some pipes. - Yeah, yeah. I didn't go look for them. (laughing) - Because I can't really stand Mariah Carey. Sorry, Mariah Carey fans. She's just not my cup of tea when it comes to music. - Sure. - Anyhow. - Well, moving back. I cannot believe that Willow is tasked with finishing out the term, and correct me if I'm wrong, but calendar worked there full time. Is Willow going to class, or does she just teach all day? - That's a good question. I do not know. I can't, there are so many layers of wrongness to this. I can't even start. And then Snyder is giving her grade pressure. And it's like, it's like, I'm a student here. Of course, you know, oh, my integrity. Oh, I'm a student here. Okay, I'll just do what you say. I just, I cannot, I cannot even. And when she catches Gage playing solitaire with the nudie cards or whatever, it's like, yeah, what power does she have? What is, I can't believe this class is going as well as it is, and they cannot find anyone but a student to complete the term. I don't know. I'm just having a little trouble suspending my disbelief on this one. - Well, maybe it's just that the smart computer people are like, fuck, no, I'm going to live in Sunnydale. You know, their death mortality rate is there? - Wow. - That's fair. They're looking at their computers, which apparently they can check student health records on and get all sorts of other information. And so they know this Hellmouth area is not where they want to work. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that that's got to be it. - Okay. - Because I mean, they're not to, I mean, California, of course, at that time, is the place to be if you're doing any kind of computer stuff. - Absolutely. - So Sunnydale could be the highway to Silicon Valley. - Exactly. Maybe it's exactly halfway between LA and Silicon Valley. But who knows? Yeah. And I'm just like, oh my God. I just grinded my teeth during this episode about the great pressure. - Yes. Which again, wrong on so many levels. What the heck is going on at this school? - Yeah. - And Snyder, I never said such a thing. All I'm suggesting is that re-check your figures. - My figures are correct, Snyder. - Yeah. - Get your nose out of my business. - Yes. - But since you are my principal and I am a student, not an employee here, I guess I will just change this grade. - Yeah. Were they paying in my low? - I know. Is she just getting extra credit that she doesn't need? It's really messed up the whole situation. - Yeah. - So going from one messed up situation to another, we never saw this Cameron Walker before. - Right. - But the day after he waxes poetic on the beach, he's apparently giving Buffy a ride and is suddenly gets totally aggressive with her. She defends herself and then she gets in trouble. - And we have the victim shaming about that dress. I just hated everything about the Snyder, but Cam, Buffy, yeah, thing. - And it's just so unfortunately representative of the time. You know, today they wouldn't be able to get away with that. They'd all be losing their jobs and end up in court. But it was representative of the time. - Yeah, I hate it all. I'm like, that's, yeah, let's just go ahead and blame her. He's totally blamed. And that's Smirk on his face when the coach and Snyder and the nurse, I think I'll leave the room. I was like, Buffy, I just want you to smack that. Smirk off of this face. - I'm glad his skin peels off less than 10 minutes later. - Yeah, there's Karma. - Couldn't happen to a better guy. Now this nurse, Canchata, Canchata Farrell, is that? Wow, I feel like I've seen her in a ton of stuff. I don't know if this is early on in her career or she had done a bunch before, but I'm like, okay, we got to see her more than in just this scene because she's kind of a, she's kind of a big deal. - Yeah, I think this was probably fairly early on, but I always remember her. In fact, I forgot she was in this episode. I remember her from Mystic Pizza, the movie. Have you seen that? - I have. - I love that movie. I mean, is it in my top 10 favorites? No, but I always really enjoyed it. - Yeah, I like her. I just have a good impression of her from a variety of things I've seen her in. So it was interesting to see her in this role. And for a while, I thought maybe she was the big bad, but no, no, she was complicit when she thought it was helping. And then as soon as she found out it was dangerous, she tried to stop it and was ended. - Yeah, God. - Coach, she's a bad coach. - Oh, bad, bad coach. - Yeah, yeah. - When Cam was in the steam room in the next scene, I was like, Cam is getting a good steam in, probably during computer class. (laughing) - Probably, probably. Man, I love when Buffy slammed his face into the steering wheel. - He so deserved every moment of pain. - You know, when my nieces got to dating age, I told them this story my mom told my sister and I when we got to dating age, when my mom was in high school, she and her friend Janet went on this double date with these boys. They met at Harrison Lake and so they went to this dance and on the way home, I guess, they pulled off, right? And started to make the moves on mom and Janet. And Janet, I mean, was scared enough that she started crying in the back seat. And, you know, this guy's trying to put the moves on my mom and my mom's like, you clearly don't know who my brothers are and proceeds to take off her little kitten pump and beat the hell out of the guy. And he just like peels out and drops them off. And so I was like, I gotta tell this to the girls when they get old enough and to just show them, you know, you don't have to take shit from these guys, fight back. And it was kind of funny, my niece Keisha was like, "Grandma did what?" (laughing) But anyways, you know, I'm like, "Yeah, mom made a little Buffy in her." I like it. Like, who needed her brother? She took care of the situation herself. - Exactly, exactly. What did she even need to say that for? I guess maybe to be like, so I know how to fight. - Yeah, I just, I love that story about my mom. - Nice. - All right, I didn't really understand the library scene that came after that because, you know, Buffy's going on and telling them what happened. And she gets this look from them all like, "What the hell, why are you going on about this?" Did you, did that strike you as weird? - Very weird. I was like, "Listen, she was like assaulted." It almost seemed like they thought it was her fault too. - Yeah. - I did not like that. I didn't, it was jarring, it was weird. It was what's happening here. - Yeah, yeah, I'm like, "Why are you all not really offended and outraged for her?" - Mm-hmm. - Not just that she was assaulted, but that the coach and Snyder are blaming her for it. - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, I hated that. I hated it. - Yep, yep. - Really hated it. I don't care if they were researching because dad's meat suit was found and they were trying to find some beastie to explain it, I don't care. It was inappropriate. - Yes, and I just feel like there were, and we're not, we're not through all of them yet. There were just so many variations on that same theme. - Yeah, it's the whole episode. - Troubled me throughout. So yes, I did not like the writing of this episode. - Yeah, that's, I think why it's rated so lowly. So low. Hello, I am really struggling today. Anyhow, I did like, I mean, there were quite a few pop culture references and this is one of the big ones. - Okay, let's go with that. - There's a big one in this one. Did you catch it? - Well, tell me what it is. - When Xander says. - In other words, this was no boating accident. - Okay, so is that Jaws? - It is. - Okay. - It is, it is. And that's the, when Hooper, Richard Dreyfus' character is examining the hand from the beach. Xander's always coming up with him. - It's true. - The other ones. Well, I mean, I don't know if we can consider them. - Well, the black lagoon, blue lagoon, why? - The black lagoon, blue lagoon. I don't know if we can consider Gertrude Ederly as a pop culture reference, but maybe. - Oh, what? - The Gertrude Ederly, the first woman to swim the English channel. Pam says that. - But I do know. - And I did check. I was like, is that correct? Did it actually is correct? And she was an American competition swimmer, Olympic champion. And she was the first woman to swim the English channel on August 6th, 1926. - Very cool. - I feel like-- - I feel like-- - Go ahead. - Oh, I was gonna just jump to another pop culture reference, but go ahead. - I was just gonna say, I remember something about the English channel being swum by a woman, but I thought it was much more recent. And by much more recent, I mean, like 90s, 2000s. But that, 'cause that name doesn't sound familiar, but anyway. - There was. - It does it. - I don't know who, but I think I've heard that too, 'cause I was a little bit surprised that it was 1926, 'cause I was like, whoa, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. But I didn't bother to look that up, but I think I know what you're referencing. - Because that name does not sound familiar to me. - Yeah. - Yes, of course now I'm like, okay, must look it up. - Well, sure enough, that's the first name to come up with women's swimming English channel. - Yeah, list of successful, successful, geez. Maybe we should just stop. - Okay, Chloe McCartill, she did a solo crossing of the English channel, and it's the world record for the longest open water swim. - Oh, maybe that's it. - Now, what year was that? - And she was born in '85, so when was the swim? Oh my gosh, eight crossings in one season and three crossings in one week. - Oh. - 2010, 2012, 2017, boy, she just could not get enough of the swim in the channel. I'm not sure if that's the person I'm thinking of, but anyway, I guess there is more than one category for these swims. - I don't, that name isn't familiar to me. - McCartill did it first, maybe there's an American that did it, and we would have heard that. - Yeah, I can't remember, but yeah, Gertrude Ederly didn't sound familiar to me. - Oh, well, Gertrude Ederly is American, so she was the first American. - Yeah, yeah. - Okay, well, I'm sorry, Gertrude Ederly. I, way to go. (cheering) - I wanna say it was earlier than that, though, and maybe it's somebody who didn't successfully do it and had maybe died. - Some problems, yeah, that's what I'm wondering now. Okay. - And now I'm wondering, do they swim it, is it at the narrowest point or the widest point? - Okay, we're way off track here. - Yeah, yes, we definitely are. - We're out of the shallows. - Okay, we're in when we're into the channel. - And we're in the cuddle. - So were there any other pop culture references? - Well, one for sure, after Xander's been in the steam room and he says three times a fish guy is kind of an oblique reference to three times a lady by the connoisseurs. - Okay. - And then of course when, yeah, and then of course when coach dumps conchata and then Buffy into the sewer area, those have real aliens vibes, you know, and that little girl gets lost in the kind of underground water tunnels. - Yeah, yeah, I've got a real big problem with that scene. - Okay, well, let's do one and talk about it now. - We can wait till we get there. - All right, all right. - But it's all I can think of when I think of a scene where Buffy gets thrown in. Okay, so we'll move to some other inappropriate thing that was said, you ran like a woman? - Oh, God, yeah, yep. - On Cordelia. - Yes. - And I thought that quite possibly the biggest offense in your mind might've been that the phrase from whence it came was spoken. - I did highlight that. (both laughing) Ever since I learned how we've been saying it incorrectly forever, now it drives me crazy every time I hear it or read it. (laughs) - From from from from. - It's just whence people, there's no from whence, whence means from. So what you're saying from whence, it's from from. (both laughing) - Pet pee-vish lunch story? - Well, I knew it would be, I knew it would be noted. - I'm like, ah, and then Buffy's like, from whence? That's right, Buffy, you said it wrong. - That's why. - Not that you actually pulled whence out of the air, but. - It's just saying it wrong, sorry. And Giles doesn't current her. - Mm-hmm. - Come on, Giles. Just for that, I'm gonna call you Giles. (both laughing) - And mean it. - And mean it, dammit. Yep, yep. (both laughing) - Did you think Buffy's cholesterol thing was funny? - I didn't get it. - Well, you know, Zander says the skin is the best part. - Mm-hmm. - Oh, okay. And the skin, lichen fried chicken and whatever. Okay, clearly I missed it, but thanks for, thanks for explaining the joke. And so maybe Buffy's right, I'm laughing later. (both laughing) - It just made me hungry for Kentucky French chicken, I have to admit. I was like, hmm, yeah, chicken skin, all nice and fried up. - Oh my gosh, I had heaven scent less than a week ago. - Oh, that's good stuff. - Yeah, as I was saying, Kentucky French chicken, a voice in the back of my head was going, what about heaven scent? (both laughing) Yeah, I like their chicken fingers. You get the spicy or the regular spicy for sure. - Oh, yeah. Okay, now I'm hungry for that. - Okay. - Okay, so moving on, let's see. Oh, Willow in the questioning scene of Jonathan? (both laughing) - Loved the light. Where were you on the night of September 17th? And, but I must ask, what material was that jumper made of? - Thank you. I do not know. And the shirt she had under it, I'm like, oh, why, why? - Disturbing. - You know, this season is just so weird for Willow's wardrobe because there are elements of her wardrobe sometimes that are nice, right? - They pair it with shit. And I'm like, uh, duh, duh, duh. In fact, that's what my note says, what the fuck is that shirt? - Yeah. - Yeah, the jumper itself. I couldn't even go there. I could not go to the jumper. - Yeah, it looked like mohair. - Oh. - That's what I thought it looked fuzzy and thick and bizarre. - Yeah, oh, I bet it was. Where the hell they find that? - I don't know. Somebody was scouring some thrift stores. - So, Buffy is stock engaged. - Well, let's back up before we get to that. - Oh, okay. - Okay, go ahead. - Go ahead. - In the scene where Xander and Cam run into each other. - Oh, yes. - In the hallway, right? Did you notice, this was after they stopped moving around and they're standing and kind of squared off against one another? - Yes, and there's like no one else in the school. No one else in the school, but I'm starting to think their set people really went to great links to either find appropriate posters or to create them. - Oh, wow. There's a poster in the background of a scrunched up cigarette and it says, "Bam the butt." Wow. And this I put down, is this a not so subtle reference to Cam? - The band? - The butt? - Because Cam's an asshole. - Oh my gosh. Wow. - And that's how they could kind of put that in without calling Cam an asshole? - But it's not Cam, right? It's Gage? - Cameron knows. - Where's it Cam? Oh, it's Cam with the nose. Okay, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. - Yeah. - Okay, now I'm totally with you. Okay. - Okay. - Okay. Yes, 'cause that's right. He even says, "Oh, your nose, face you or something like that." - Yeah, well, he calls Andrew a loser and so he brings up his nose 'cause he got busted by buffet. - Yeah, yeah. I love, I love seeing what Buffy does. Do you (laughs) - Yes, yes. So anyway, I wondered when I saw that poster in the background, I was like, "Whoa, I wonder if that's a reference to Cam." - Interesting, nice, deep cut there. - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I'm just gonna, again, it's going into my head canon as the set people are really on top of it and they're putting subtle references in the background because remember, when we were talking about, when Buffy was in the passion episode, Buffy was worried about her mom and there was the... Was that the panic poster or was that, I think it might be the panic poster and then there's a scene with, or it might be the one where there was the self-defense class or something anyways, but there's often posters now I'm noticing in the background that kind of kind of refer to what's going on, I was saying, yeah. So... - Yes, yes, okay, this is definitely worth continuing to look at because I know you are correct. I may not have caught this one, but I've definitely seen other posters that were perfect. - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. - Yeah, I like that one. - And others that were just kind of interesting, like the English writers and the computer terms. - Right, right. - There's a lot of posters in this high school. - There are a lot of posters in this hospital. - Mm-hmm. - Oh my goodness, in this school, maybe we shouldn't record in the evening. (laughing) - It's harder. - I can't even put it down to wine. I'm not, I'm drinking water. (laughing) - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, now we can move back up to whatever, where we were, we passed Jonathan's interrogation. - Right. - Oh, and then Coach and Snider, Zander over here is them, saying they need another person for the team. - Right, right. (laughing) - The next scene, right, we're at the bronze and Buffy's stalking gauge. - Yes. - And I thought this, and they do this with songs too, like they're doing with the posters. The song is like, if you'd listen, we wouldn't have to go through this. 'Cause we know Gage is gonna listen to anything she has to say, and so forth, so. But if you'd have just listened to her, he wouldn't have got her intact by Angel. - No doubt, but wasn't that interesting? And did you get the kind of impression that Angel wasn't just gonna kill him, but he was gonna turn him into a vampire? - Yeah, I definitely got that impression. - But it was too nasty. He was too fishy. He was just like Tori, he did not like the fish. - Yeah, yes, yes, and clearly, that humanity is only skin deep because it's just a fish boy lurking underneath there, waiting to rip out. - Yeah, yeah, we're gonna come back to that at the end. - Okay. - So I do have a trivia question here. - Okay, oh boy. - So this is in the bronze. - Oh dear, okay. - What? - Yummy goodness is in the cake stand on the bar of the bronze. - Oh, I don't know. - Animal crackers. - Oh my gosh, I love animal crackers. - I think that was a long time. - I think that was an homage to us. - Oh. - And the monkey with the pants or whatever? - Yeah, they have the whole animal cracker bit. - Oh. - Yeah, we need Oz back. - Yeah, you know, I'm wondering if this is when he was maybe-- - Had a real gig. - Yeah, like maybe one of the Austin Powers movies or something? I don't know when Austin Powers was filmed. - Filmed. - It's entirely possible. - Well, they were doing international, well, that movie came out in 1997. So it's, he might have been filming it. And then the spy who shagged me came out in 1999. I bet that's what it was. I bet he was filming for one of those. And they, so they just didn't put him in anything. But we got a little shout out to him there in the bronze. Don't forget us, people. - Yeah, no, I shall never forget. Famous last words. - Okay, you were gonna say something tonight. - Oh, no, I just, we were talking about angel. I had said about angel maybe making gauge of empire, but then he didn't taste good. - Right. - And so really, gauge was gonna be okay no matter what, but then we had him. - He was afraid, he did not like being bitten in the neck and wanted Buffy to walk him home. - Yeah, well, I thought of all the people that they had on the swim team, he looked most like a swimmer. He was kind of tall and had more of a swimmer. - I mean, you gotta have the broad shoulders. That's, you know, you can't swim without them. I mean, you can't swim fast. - Yeah. - You can swim, you can swim, but maybe not competitively. - Yeah, the swimmer still wears Speedos. - You know, remember at one of the Olympics, they were wearing like those shark finned suits or something and those banned or something. I think, I'm not, I think I'm not sure. But there has been some evolution with that, but I still think they're pretty small. But you know, they may be more like biker shorts now. - Yeah, that's what I love. - Yeah, I think, I think they've kind of evolved to that. But it was a whole like body suit, they're not full body, but kind of half body suit for a while there during part of the Michael Phelps era. But anyway, it's been a little while since I've watched swimming, but. - Well, we'll get a chance too. - Very soon. - Summer. - Yeah, Summer Olympics coming up. - Did I tell you that my massage therapist is going to the Olympics? - No. - As a massage therapist. - Oh, poor. - For one of the teens. I mean, it's of course a USA team, but I'm not going to say which sport 'cause she hasn't actually, she can't announce it yet. - Okay, okay, well, I hope to find out as soon as that's available information, that's so cool. - Yeah, isn't it cool? She's that good. - Oh, hey, nice. - She's super excited. She just got her kit, you know, and it's got all the, like her uniform and the little pins that they all get and change. - Yeah, and that is so awesome. You are going to have to watch that sport carefully just to see if she's ever, I don't know, on the sidelines, whatever the sidelines are for that particular event. You'll have to see. - I don't know if they'll have massage tables on the sideline. - Well, you just, well, you just don't know. But yeah, she's super, super, super excited. - Yeah, oh, that's awesome. - Yeah, yeah, she's actually headed overseas in a couple of days with the team as they're doing some-- - Isn't it France? - Yeah, the Olympics are in Paris this year. - Okay, okay. - Yeah, and like she said, like one of her old clients has an apartment in Paris. And so after the Olympics, she and her hubby are going to stay for a while and in the apartment and-- - Well, perfect. Well, a little French summer vacation. That's the most fabulous. - Yeah, really? Not a Scottish wee. Oh, you lie, oh, you lie. - Correct. - So yeah, I'm off track again, but I'm super excited, I'm super excited for her. - That's an important tangent. We're going to have to come back to that. - Yes, yes. - As the Olympics evolve. (laughing) - Yeah, I hope they do well. - But yeah, so this brings us to the big pool scene with the big reveal. (laughing) - And more ways than one. - And more ways than one. Zander doing the swim team thing. - Yeah. (laughing) - And Cordelia is all about it. - Oh, yes, she is. Oh, it's too shy about it either. - That is true. (laughing) - Zander or Cordelia, what the hell are you doing here? Zander, I'm undercover, Buffy. - Not under lunch. (laughing) - Very good. - Yeah, I think in some of Cordelia's shallowness from season one comes through in this episode, where she's so stoked about dating a premier athlete on the swim team. - Which, I'm sorry. They've lost their top three swimmers. They're totally dipping into the reserves. We never find out the result of state, but I can't imagine it goes well. - Yes, yes. - And boy. - Yeah, and Dan, oh, Danver. (laughing) - Good old Danver. - Good old Danver. - Danver? (laughing) - Toria's totally lost command of the English language. No, did he see that dive he did? I'm like, holy shit, nobody that dives like that is gonna make the swim team. He just like belly smacked. - It was a belly flop. I was like, oh, yeah, did not look good. - No, it looked painful actually. - Yes. - Says somebody who can't dive at all, but hey, I watched swim teams. I know what it's supposed to be. - You know what they're supposed to look like. - Yeah, yeah. - And, you know, they're not even doping anymore, right? They're on the blood transfusions to help avoid the rest of them turning into fish, so. - Not yet. - Well, not yet, but I mean before the meat. - Uh-huh. - So I'm just talking about their likelihood of winning state. - Oh, yes. - I don't think they're gonna win it because. - I don't think so either. - As we move forward, they've lost three of their best swimmers and the best of their swimmers are. - Four now, right? Because Shawn becomes one of the beasties, which is one of my questions, right? At the end, when we see the three of them out in the ocean, I'm like, where is the fourth one? - Good point. Good point, I forgot all about Shawn. - Yeah, yeah, hmm. I don't know. You know, I just wanted to pop into my head as we were chatting. You remember how I mentioned in the Halloween episode that Alison Hannigan was really concerned about Joiner Midriff, and so she really worked out? - Yes. - I wonder if Xander, yes, Xander, but if Nicholas Brennan was told ahead of time that he was gonna have to do a speedo scene later in the season? 'Cause he's like fit through this whole season, and I'm wondering if he got a heads up. - And decided to put in some work at the gym. - Yeah, yeah, well, it meant gym time, so-- - Well, he did look quite good. - He did, yeah. Oh, yeah, there's no two ways about that. - Yeah. - Okay, anyway. Moving on. - Moving on, so we discover that it's not a fish monster killing the boys, it is the fish monster coming out of the fish monster is the boys. - Yes, yes, and this is where Myth-Matafore guy, he said, this was kind of funny, 'cause he's like, I really struggle with making anything in this episode, but he does posit that the monsters represent Buffy's blame of herself about Angel, right? So these are the internal monsters that we deal with. - Well, and if at the end of the episode, we find that she's let some of those monsters go free, and the next episode she'll be a little less burdened, then I might go ahead and buy it. - Ah. - But if not, I don't know. - Well, let's mark that. And try to remember to come back to it when we do becoming one in two this time. - Because it is interesting how she just has a feeling that they've left. Well, how does she know this? It was kind of weird, but it would fit in with this theory. - Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, and maybe Kim does wax quite poetic about the ocean, so I think that's where she got the, they're going home thing, but well, at least three of them are going home. - We don't know what happened to the hard ones. - We don't know what happened to him. He shouldn't have gone in the chlorine. He's been desalinated. - Yeah, exactly, exactly. But anyways, and he also talks about how C is, according to Jung, the most communist symbol for the unconscious, or the subconscious. So, I don't know. And he also suggests, that's what he really thinks of this, I think, but he suggests that possibly the monsters represent Buffy's fear that she was a woman of loose morals, although that's not the word he used, for sleeping with Angel and causing all this problems. I think I'm gonna go with the first one, right? - I like the first one a lot better. - Yeah, struggling with inner monsters. 'Cause we all have inner demons that we struggle with. - Mm-hmm, okay. - All right, so that's all I need to say about that. - Okay, well, that's the deepest, the deepest thing we can possibly get out of this. (both laughing) So, I have this realization at this moment that other than kind of fighting with a few people sort of interrupted the transfiguration here, or the emerging from the cocoon, it was like, oh my gosh, well, these fish people, they really haven't done anything wrong. And then like, just after that, then the nurse gets thrown into the bed and can see by the fish people. - So, that's the fish people doing anything wrong, that's coach, I mean, right, 'cause the fish are now just animals. - Okay, so they would eat whatever. Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. So, they're not in the, well, okay. Then what do you think about when he throws Buffy in there and says boys have other needs besides food? - Mm-hmm, well, I mean-- - That was animal instinct as well. - Well, even humans, right? 'Cause we are animals. We have to reproduce and we need to have food and water. And, you know, that's kind of the biological imperative. Eat and have sex so you can make little babies. - So, do the fish still identify as human? And so they want to have sex with a human? - Well-- - I don't know where the line is here between their ability to discern good versus full-on raping her, which is clearly what the coach's plan is, which is absolutely horrific and I hate the coach. - Yeah, I mean, if we think about animal behavior, I don't think they would recognize Buffy as a potential mate unless there's still a human spark in the brain and we don't know that. - Yeah, and then if there's a human spark in the brain, then they should know better than to, you know, I don't know. It's a real murky area here that I don't care for. But clear, you're absolutely right. The one who is most to blame for all of this is the coach. - Yeah, and you know what's common about the fish DNA studies out of the Soviet Union? - Yeah, when in doubt, blame it on the Russians. - Blame it on the Russians, but it didn't cause me to do a little bit of research. - Oh my gosh. - Because I was wondering in the back of my head, well, you know, in the '70s and '80s, there was always a lot of controversy like-- - Don't pay for using, yeah, doping. And then in the '90s, there was that huge doping scandal with the Soviet Union about the Olympics that were gonna be in China. But I did find out there was in the early 20th century, I'm gonna say this is post-World War I, where the Soviet scientist named Ilya Ivanov was experimenting and creating chimeras. - Whoa. - And he was trying to make a human chimpanzee chimera called human z's. - Oh my God, those sound like pajamas. - They do, okay. - So I couldn't find anything specific about experiments with fish DNA, but there was some odd-- - That is fascinating. - That is a little experimentation going on in the communist Russia. - You know, it's like million dollar man, stronger, faster, whatever. What, the chimpanzee, I mean, where are we going here? I guess maybe similar DNA. I don't know, but I, what's a plan, Phil, right? I mean, what's the end goal here for the humanity? Just to say you can do it. - I was just reading, I read several articles, but the one I kind of landed on was the Grunge article. It's called Messed Up Experiments at the Soviet Union Conductor. Listen to some of these. - Oh God. - Decapitated dogs Frankenstein to life. - Whoa. - And I'm going to say this wrong and I've always said it wrong. It's the, what's the, how do you pronounce the dog, the help dog that guarded the-- - Cerberus? - Yes, Cerberus one head less. Wholesale dog slaughter, Vietnam, gas. - Here we go. - Those dogs. - Cuban plus chimpanzee equals human Z. - I'm sorry, I'm sorry. That is just too funny a name. - Yeah, yeah. So he artificially, and then they have a parenthesis, we hope, "Inseminated female chimpanzee with human sperm in order to make a human Z." Ah. - The goal was to make a Soviet super soldier. - Okay. - Wow. - But by 1929, when it wasn't working, he wanted to impregnate human females with chimps sperm. - But that would never, that would never took place. And the lessons here is no human Z's wherever successfully born. Wow, okay. Well, I think we know where he got the sperm. - Well, it looks like some dude at the University of Albany cut wind of it and then tried to conduct his own experiments in Florida in the 1920s. - Of course, it was in Florida. - He says they succeeded, but there's no evidence that it did. Said they got freaked out and killed and-- - Hey Kate, I think there is evidence. (beeping) So yeah, and then it looks like they also did a lot of experiments with different poisons. They actually intentionally starved people. - I mean, you know what? America's got no reason to be snide either. - Oh no. - We've done horrific stuff. - Oh hell yeah. - Science has, you know, the mad scientist is real. - Oh, yeah, yeah. - I talk to my students about that kind of stuff all the time. - Yeah. But anyways, I just, the DNA comment that the coach made I was like, did they really do that or so-- - Yeah, I'm glad you, I'm glad you checked out that particular rabbit hole, that's interesting. - Yeah, I mean, again, I couldn't find anything about fish specifically, but I ran across all these other things they were doing. So I think it wasn't out of the realm of possibility. So who knows, maybe they were, I did find one or they were doing these experiments with a deep sea habitation. And they weren't supposed to be doing it. They did it anyways. They wanted to see what the effects of living at uncut deep sea levels would, that would affect would be on people. - Uh-huh, uh-huh. - But they used the athletes. - Okay. - Okay. - Hey, well, anything else you want to reveal from this deep dive? (laughs) - No, I think that's it. - Okay, okay. Well, shall we move on to what is my favorite part of the episode? - Yeah, late on me. - Okay, so I call it true confessions with Cordelia. What's the chap's name? Brad, you said the fourth boy. - Sean. - Sean, yeah, Sean, Brad, whatever. - And he is swimming through the water. And Cordelia sees he's a fish man. And thinks it's Zander. We, she really, she kind of goes deep a bit. - Yes. - And really is expressing true deep feelings for Zander. And goes so far as to say, you know, is like, we can make it work. But goes so far as to say. - I understand if you want to see other fish. (laughs) - And then Zander's like, that's not me. But she goes on for quite a while. I mean, we really get the sense, and some of it is silly, but some of it, I mean, you know, she's not just like, oh my God, you know. (laughs) She, she has the depth to think. And I think it's not just blinded by the swim team because she has to understand that he's not going to compete on the swim team anymore now that he's a fish. That she, she really cares about him. - Yeah. Yeah, she doesn't immediately go to, oh, you're a fish now. We got to break up. - Yeah, yeah. - One thing you're gonna- - We need to make it work. - I know, so I thought this was adorable. And I liked the revelation of Bordelia's deeper feelings for Zander, which I have always, I have always believed to be so. - You know, something occurred to me while I was watching it this time. This scene specifically, you know how I've been bitching about Cordelia's outfits? - Oh, yes. - It occurred to me perhaps, 'cause they knew they were gonna put Zander and Cordelia together, that they were trying to nerd her up a bit. You know, with all the sweater sets and stuff. - Oh, interesting. - To make her more on Zander, even though Zander's not intellectual by any means, right? To but to make her a little bit more obtainable for him. - Does that make sense, Janet? - It makes sense what you're saying. I don't know if I buy it, but I'm hearing you and I'm open to continuing to watch that. - Well, we only get a couple more episodes, so. - Well, fair, but we shall see, but I don't know. I mean, she still seems to be rather popular. She's still a cheerleader. She's still whatever, but- - Well, I mean, she still does have some, like the dress that she was wearing in this episode were nice, but they, you know, kind of always been sure she had a little sweater thing tied around her neck. - Hmm, maybe she just had some weird skin condition during this season and they wanted to cover it up. I don't know. - Interesting theories. Okay, another thing that was pretty funny is library jail comes to handy once again. I was literally just going to say something about that. (laughing) - Locked them all up in library jail. - And they're all just, they just look confused. Nobody's going, "Dude, he ain't knocking me in this cage." They're all just like, "Okay, we'll go look in that cage." I guess one of us becomes a new sky. We'll just kind of just all be here. I'm like, "Man, that cage is really handy." - Yes. - It's library jail. - Yes, where they make students read that, what is it, the anid? (laughing) - The anid? - The anid, thank you. (laughing) - Wow, interesting pet. (laughing) - I was going to go say the Iliad and the Odyssey, but those were actually kind of interesting. - Agreed. - Where I would bulk it having to read the anid. - Yeah, the Iliad and the Odyssey, were they both Homer and was the anid Virgil? - Wasn't Virgil, I think so. I don't know, we could look it up, but I don't. - I think so. I don't think I've read the anid. Sorry, the anid. - The anid. - It is by Virgil. - It is by Virgil, yep. The Latin epic poem. - I might need to do that. Might need to get that on the list. - Well, you-- - Feels like a mess. - You've read quite a bit of older literature that I have avoided. - Well, keep you posted. (laughing) I'll let you know if it happens. (laughing) And in this episode, we got a little thing on here where Zander saves Buffy once again from a watery grave. - Which, I don't know how shallow this watery grave was, but that was one heck of a blast off. - Yeah, I know shit. - And Buffy did-- - Oh, oh. - Jettison herself. - Was Zander able to pull her up when they got fish monsters hanging on her feet? - I have no idea. - It's all the steam room time. - Oh, that's right. - Steam room time. - That's right, he's been on steroids. (laughing) He was on the steroids. - Okay, this episode ranks pretty low for me, but I will, I will keep in mind, I like the idea of those inner demons getting out and Buffy having the connection to knowing that they were free to fall like in the sea. (laughing) - Yeah, yeah, I think feels interpretation as they maybe only save in Greece of this particular episode. - Yes, I give it one star. (laughing) - Yeah, it is not an episode that slays. - No, agreed. - Agreed. All right, well, as I mentioned earlier, we're gonna do the next two episodes together. - It's becoming part one and part two. - Okay, and that will-- - And that will what? - Yeah, you will find out. - Oh. - Wrapping up season two. - Very exciting, stay tuned, Peter. - Yes, yes, so all that's left now is to say goodbye. - Thanks for listening, everybody. (upbeat music) - Following in the shallows is created and produced by the both of us, edited by Mo. The soundtrack for the Wallowing in the Shallows, Buffy the Vampire Slayer season two re-watch is Apache Rock instrumental by SoundItalia, available on gemento.com. You can send us feedback at witstvpod@gmail.com. That's W-I-T-S-T-V-P-O-D at gmail.com. (upbeat music) - Subscribe. - And then subscribe. - And then subscribe. - Subscribe. - Hit that subscribe button, like and subscribe.
