[MUSIC] >> Fan Morning Joe 4-7-5-9 need the fan man, Ennis Brent Gunning. I appreciate it, Sheldon Keef's video upon being relieved of his duties as the head coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs. I think both of us were on record as saying we thought he did a pretty good job. >> Yeah. >> Considering the circumstances, but he gots to go. Half decade, one postseason series victory with this core. Yeah, obviously, the Toronto Maple Leafs had to move on. He thought he acquitted himself quite nicely in the sphere of public consciousness. When he released that video, which seemed like the best place in the world to be. I was like re-watching it again in the break and it's a lake, I guess. But you don't see the other shoreline, it's a giant lake. >> I'm confident. >> The weather was perfect, it feels- >> I'm confident that's Lake Ontario. >> There's a lot of- >> Lake it, you think it's Lake Ontario? >> Stretch as a lake Ontario, where you can not see. >> Yeah, no, no, no, I didn't consider it being Lake Ontario because it seemed like I imagined it was in a cottage and I don't know, do you want a cottage on Lake Ontario where you're not going in the water? >> Okay, sorry, sorry, I shouldn't have said Lake Ontario. I figured he was in Ontario on a lake, sorry, I didn't mean the Great Lakes, sorry, sorry, sorry, I thought you were like, he was gone somewhere. It's like, nah, I'm pretty sure he's just got a cottage. >> Yeah, no, that's what I mean. But like, yeah, the lake that he's on, if you're on Lake Jogue, is there a spot where you cannot see the other shoreline, is it that big? >> I feel like I've been, I could not sit here and name the lake for you, but I feel like I've been up in cottage country and like, yeah, even on a clear day, it's like, all right, there's no horizon here. >> I don't know. >> I disagree. >> That seemed like some ideal, I think- >> Do you think it is? >> Honestly, not that it was AI, but if you told me it was, I'd be like, yeah, that makes sense. Like, I don't know if you can, in the natural world, you can create a setting as perfect as the one that Sheldon Keef shot that video from. Anyways, it would take a lot to get me away from that place. >> Especially if you were being given, like, we think two-ish million dollars for this year and next. >> Yeah, but I guess you got to do it. I get, if you want to continue to work, you got to take the devil's job, you know, like the young core and, you know, the expectations being, hey, make the playoffs after missing the playoffs with a team that, you know, won around season ago, so yeah, it makes sense. >> It does. This is where, like, everyone always rolls their eyes at me in this business. Like, I finally took a vacation this year and, like, you know, one of our colleagues texted me about work on the vacation. They even said, like, hey, if anybody wants to be bothered during a vacation, it's huge. So it's like, I understand the idea of wanting to put yourself in, but I also need to, I completely understand where Sheldon keeps coming from, of needing to do this. One, you want to strike while the iron's hot. I mean, you're going to have the highest winning percentage of, you know, coaches from this era forever. It ain't going to get worse until he goes and takes another job. So it's not say he needed to jump into a job, but I understand that, like, there are certain people in this world that just feel like that's what they need to do. And if what he feels like he needs to do is coach hockey, good on him. Like, I don't, I'm not saying you begrudge him at all. But it's like, I completely understand the idea of somebody's work just being so not important to them, but impossible to stay away from. Throw in the fact that that's a great job with a good roster, good young core. Unlike here, awesome contracts. I think it was the perfect opportunity to jump at and I completely get it. No, I guess joking. Like, obviously you take that job. No, he's 43 years old. Um, he's only had one NHL head coaching job. And yeah, you say the thing about the family because, you know, your wife's probably taking the video. She's like, Oh, finally, you're like, yeah, but not, but not though. Like, because this is my job. And, uh, yeah, do you like this cottage? Let's, let's build another one with some, some more or some head coaching success in the postseason and we can write or take it wherever we go. Anyways, makes all the sense in the world with that young core in New Jersey. Um, how would you feel about his hiring if you were a devil's fan? It's tough because you see the lack of, I mean, man, we had conversations here about, and I don't think anybody ever ended up at the spot of, no, no, I don't want Rob Brindemore. But we had conversations about, Hey, that guy, he's the one who coaches the team that can never get over the hump and the hump was winning a game in the third round. Sheldon Keefe would have killed for that. I, I do think that if you are somebody, I think it depends on how you see the world. Like if you're a results person, then no, I don't think you're overly happy with the higher. I don't think you care that he's was a great regular season coach. You had a good regular season team a couple of years ago and it, you know, it did ultimately result in the exact same thing for the Leafs. One playoff series win, but I think if you're somebody who kind of takes a step back and looks at it that you should be ecstatic about this. This is a guy who I think is going to be different in his second job. I think whatever convictions he maybe came to late in Toronto, he starts with in New Jersey. And I also think that, you know, you want the coach the second time around it. Any guy going from the first opportunity of doing something to the second, there's just a natural improvement that's going to happen there. So I think Devil's fans should be happy about it, but I can totally see a segment of the fan base going, hold on, hold on, hold on. The guy who coached the loser Leafs, that's who we're getting. I understand that. I think that's wrong though. Yeah. And maybe that is the prevailing sentiment. I would, if, if there's anybody that feels that way, you should, you know what should supersede that is like, Hey, what's the most painful thing for Leaf fans? What's the outcome that most hurts the Leafs? And it's Sheldon keep having incredible postseason success, like immediately upon being fired as the head coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs. So I think that would be fuel in your fire. And yeah. Okay. Regular season success. We've, we've grown to roll our eyes at that here. Yeah. And we talk all the season long about, Hey, who would you rather be Euler's or Leafs? Oh, this deck, decade run. And now it's like hard to argue considering they could win a Stanley Cup. But yeah, do you, do you want to make a playoffs like each and every season? Even, and I know the devil's they had some of the worst goal tending in the NHL. Two points worse than the Leafs had this season. They said an 8, 98, eight save percentage. The devil's had an 8, 96. So yeah, you can scream all you want about them being undone by the goal tending. Maple Leafs were just as undone and didn't cruise into the postseason. But by the end of the year, they were, you know, doing whatever they could to get Austin Matthews goal number 70 with the, with not a care in the world about the two points to be had. Also, this guy knows how to deal with young stars pretty clearly. Yep. Like he, he gets it. And he, he doesn't have the bonafides. Like you don't look to him, like you look to Craig Barube, who has the ring on his finger. But again, like these are guys, I know that one around, they've already been to the postseason, but they fell flat on their face during the regular season this year. Yeah, gold tending big part of it, although gold tending big part of it for the Toronto Maple Leafs able to overcome it. Yeah, this guy has been in the hockey mecca and survive beyond any reasonable person's expectations considering the lack of postseason success. I think of your devil's man, you should be ecstatic. Yeah, and the age of the, the Leafs player, like so much, you know, we, we hear this all the time in, you know, stories afterwards from coaches of, oh, they pull me aside and tell me a story from their playing days or, you know what I bet carries a lot of currency with Jack Hughes, telling them a story about how Austin Matthews scored 69 goals. Like I bet that would carry a little bit of weight with him. Like somebody like Nico Hissher, it's like, okay, yeah, you too, tell me a story. Oh, Selke Center? Okay. Yeah, I know about that. Tell me a story about Austin Matthews. What did he do to get to these heights? Like I do think there is an element that again, because the Leafs core just kind of went through this, he has a chance at a, at a, at a do over like it's almost like he's got a like second family. I'm not reporting that. He just has the one family, but it's like he's starting over. He's starting fresh. He's got a new baby. It's like, I don't know who the wife is in this scenario, but he's, he's there and he's like ready to take the lessons from last time. I think you should be, I'm with you. I think you should be ecstatic. I can again, though, I can understand the sentiment of we have had in Jersey, the exact same amount of success that this group has had here. What can you bring in? I'm not of the belief of that, but I think you'd be, I don't think you're foolish at that opinion. They're not the same of it. Like they want around just like the Leafs did last year, but they missed playoffs this year and they missed the playoffs a bunch before that, but yes, that was before the young players arrived. But no, they haven't had the same success. They've had less than the Maple Leafs, like just factually. Well, I mean, they, it depends what you, like, what's the bar? What matters? It's like, if you're going to be, if you're going to be a playoff team, it's like, is the success and the playoffs what matters? Then they've had the same amount of success. They both won one playoff round and the time that Austin Matthews has been in the NHL, the Devils and Leafs win the same amount of rounds. Do you think he's going to be any different? Like, do you think we're going to notice a different Sheldon Keith if we had the magnifying glass for the Devils? No, because I don't, I don't think, I think the, the idea of the call out, it just got so, it became such a thing here. And I would imagine, not the Craig Peruvian wasn't prepared for this when he got asked questions, but I imagine there are a lot of, and I'm certain a lot of other NHL head coaches were not watching the Craig Buru Bay presser. They'd be sitting there going like, Oh, why do you think we just come out and public and scream and rip these guys all the time? It is a pick your spots thing when it happens. I'm not saying Keith won't pick his spot at one point in time. And I'm not saying now he won't have the conviction to stick with it if he does, but I don't think you're going to see Sheldon Keith turn into Craig Buru Bay. I think you, I think if anything, the way he's going to turn into Craig Buru Bay is by talking less and just giving their giving less meat for the media to kind of chew on there in terms of what he gives them every day. So I think different, but in tweaks, not in, you know, whole cloth change. Yeah, as far as the interactions with the media is concerned, we'll never know because it's the devil's and we'll then we'll never know. We'll just never know. Maybe, maybe we call no guys left and right. Who knows? It would be, it would be a great move. I would say it would be a great move for Keith to rip the devil's in Toronto. Yeah, sure. In the perfect case scenario, I know he wouldn't want this. And it's like devils lay an egg in Toronto. He comes out, rips them and then they're like, wow. And then, and then guess what though? Because to your point, we don't pay attention to anything else that happens there. It's like he's a new man forever. He basically is Craig Brubay now. I can't help but put myself in his spot and how it would feel, right? So he gets the job in Toronto. An incredible moment for him, but like Kyle Dubas's guy, right? Like hand-picked and with the suit and then with the Marley's and it felt like he was the next head coach in waiting and all of a sudden he gets the gig and then Kyle Dubas is fired and he's like, okay, where there's my guy and I've had no success and here comes the new GM and I'm a lame doc and I'm okay. I don't necessarily feel like I have maybe the most autonomy or people believe in me the most. But here he is just fired and the devil's going after him like it's Craig Brubay and then the devil's are indicating that he was the second best candidate. He could have sat back and and collected his checks and waited for the next gig but he was courted to such a degree by this devil's team and he is not Kyle Dubas's guy anymore. He's shelled and Keith unencumbered now. To me, the behind closed door stuff or the way he interacts or just like his demeanor, if it were me, I'd feel entirely different. Like, oh, I'm this, I'm kind of the star coaching candidate come in here to lead this team back to the postseason. Yeah, no kind about it. It was him and it was Brubay and I think if you're a not that they're again, like I when I say this, it makes it seem like Sheldon Keith is playing Patty cake and he's a players coach, but it's like they're different people. And I think the Brubay right guy for Leafs job and, you know, again, like we talked with the resume, young players, but look at what he is turned and again, hasn't turned in success. But Austin Matthews, I'm sure he would have grown as a player with or without Sheldon Keith, but it's like better player now. You see the strides other guys have made. I mean, knee lander, he seemed to have walked the line perfectly between of coaching William Nevander in his time here in Toronto. So yeah, I on and honestly, I think this is another element of it as well as I outside of a playoff series against the Devils. I think mostly fans wish him well. Like I think there was a frustration by the end, but I don't think this was a, you know, the market had totally turned on the coach or you didn't understand any of the decisions he he was making. I think people would wish him well until inevitably the Leafs like finally win the division and then they get the Devils and the wild card and Sheldon Keith and the Devils beat them. Again, yeah, you're right to point that out. If I were a Devil's fan and I was curious as to whether this would work out, the number one reason I would be excited about it is that yeah, it would be the most painful for Leaf fans if Sheldon Keith had a bunch of success immediately upon leaving the Toronto Maple Leaf. Which I just like going to go on record. I think you will. And I think that Devil's team is set up well, not that any coach would have done that, but he couldn't have picked a more plum job. Yeah. And when you, when you include the contracts, the fact that they miss the playoffs, you get to go in there with house money. It's great. It's perfect. Yeah, as much as that lake must be beautiful. Yeah, that's if you're going to be egg, if you're going to work, if you're going to work, that's a good job to have. How much impact does a coach have on a hockey team? I think we can debate it. I think the most obvious assistant coach hiring that many people consider when Craig Barube was hired is about to happen. Now, and we have factual information because Marks of Art, formerly now an assistant coach with the Calgary Flames. And despite the interesting relationship between that flame steam and the Toronto Maple Leaf steam, it feels like they let him go. They released him from his contract, mutually parting ways of the way it's been phrased. And that allows him to, we imagine, I imagine, I think everybody imagines take the assistant coaching job with the Toronto Maple Leafs. And when he does that, become once again, Craig Barube's power play guy. He was his assistant in Calgary where the Blues, when Savard was an assistant, had the third best power play in the NHL, clicking along at 24.3%. Now with the flames wasn't so good. This year is seven fourths worst in the NHL, but yeah, wasn't much good in Calgary this year. Yeah, he did that would be one of the many areas of concern considering what the flames put forth this season. Is this power play a coach away? Like, how impactful can the biggest power play brain and our former colleague Mark Savard, how impactful could he be on a unit that's had some moments during the regular season? It's all remember February, where they were scoring it a 50% clip when Morgan Riley departed the unit for a week and a half. But yeah, once again, the postseason went wanting, scored once in 20 plus power play opportunities against the Bruins. It shouldn't. This doesn't make a ton of sense, what I'm about to say, because for the absolute best teams, it works both times. But I think the problem is the Leafs have, and again, like we have talked there of being dreadful stretches. But even if you go back over the last, I think three, four, five years, the Leafs have been by power play percentage a top six, top 17 in the league in the regular season. And in the postseason, it gets different. And that is the thing I most. But it's like, by the end of the regular season, it looks like it eventually looks like in the postseason. It's not like it's different in the postseason. And like the numbers were deceiving, like it looks bad by the end of each regular season. Well, that is why that's why I think it is more a, like a mental thing than a coaching thing. To me, that just feels like gripping the sticks too tight. And also, the play style does change towards the tail end of the season. Like, teams start to get into that playoff style. I have no worry that the Leafs kind of regardless who the coaches would once again have a top six, top seven power play, but that's not what you want. You want it to click in the postseason. Now, the thing with Savard that I think is interesting is he has typically wanted to load up his top unit. That's kind of the antithesis of what we talked about being the problem here at times, not to say you can't have one loaded up unit that can work. But that's the other thing I think about this as well, as if there was going to be the place for kind of internal competition. I don't know that that's exactly how kind of savvy would want to set up his power play either. And I don't think that's a problem. Like, I am of the belief that you should, I mean, if it's not working, split it up, try something different, but you should have a top unit that has all your best players on it, especially if, and this is part of the conversation as well, especially if you're going to have four forwards that make 40 some odd million dollars next year. Yeah. What has happened to the Maple Leafs power play in the postseason makes no sense, right? Like considering the personnel that they employ, considering the moments where this power play looks at its absolute best, it makes no sense that it looks the way it did in seven games against the Boston Bruins. So I'm led to just one conclusion. Okay. And that there is a strategic problem here. Like you're telling me that Austin Matthews and his 69 goals during the regular season can't be the best score on the power play in the NHL as well, because that makes no sense. Like, why does an Austin Matthews lead the world in power play goals as well? If he just leads the world in goals, why doesn't he lead the world in power play goals routinely? See, I think that's the problem though. Like, I actually think Austin Matthews, like what I like him to, I guess score more on the, I think he had 18 power play goals. I don't look to Austin Matthews as the guy who needs to score more for the Leafs power play to work. I look at it to be, but you know, he's capable of doing that, but this is where I go back to the playoff style of the goals of it all is I, I don't want a power play that is predicated on 2009 Alex Ovechkin or 60 goal stammer. I think the best version of a Leafs power play is one where Austin Matthews is the escape valve for that, but that you generate so much offense from net front tips in greasy plays. And then guess what? When it gets scrambling, you have Martyr go in there and fish out a puck and all of a sudden you have more space for your beautiful cross ice feed to Matthews. That's why I think the problem would the least be a better power play of Austin Matthews have the Sam Reinhardt goal total? Of course. But I think they'd be a better unit if you got more greasy goals out of Tavares, Kneelander, you know, don't be back next year. Matthew Nye's in that ilk. So, I don't say that Austin Matthews shouldn't score more on the power play, but I think if you're saying where's the improvement need to come from, it's not necessarily from him. It's from the kind of greasier goals that this unit just does not generate. Sure. I don't care who it comes from. I'm just saying that like he's capable of doing that. So if you were assistant coach and you were charged with, Hey, can you take this power play unit that employs the guy that scored 69 goals? Another guy that we'll see these back, but like, let's just play the game out. Like Mitch Marner is returning to the Toronto Maple Leafs. Guy that has 100 points. Guy who has 40 goals and near 100 points to and William Nyelander and a guy in John Tavares who, okay, like he's on the decline. You know, it's really weird to look at John Tavares' statistical totals last season and compare him to 22-23 because I get even strength. He was the same guy if not slightly better. It was all on the power play that John Tavares was worse and dropped from 80 points to 65. Okay. And then Morgan Riley who, okay, maybe that's the guy that you need to improve on and maybe Brandon Muftor is like a better option on your number one power play. I'm confident about that. Yeah, I think it's very good as safe to say. But no, if I told you all those things and you were an assistant coach, you're like, yeah, no, like I can figure this out. Like I'm not an idiot. Now I'm sure Guy Boucher is the same thing. And during February, he's like, here you go. You're welcome. And I was at the outdoor practice. The Maple Leafs held in Toronto this year. And that was during the best moments of the power play. And Guy Boucher was getting like fans were chanting Guy Boucher's name as new. That offends me. That's like, you know what? The sicko leaf fan. Got no, you know what I'm like, I got a lot of that in me. I don't think I could ever bring myself to be like, was it like, Guy Boucher? Okay, maybe like chanting is not is like over exaggerating. It's like, hey, wait to go. Guy, yeah, power play looks great. Still too much. I gotta be honest. That's still too much for me. Yeah, agreed. Yeah. But no, if I was an assistant coach, I'd say, yeah, I can do this. And it would be a great opportunity. And again, just logically, yeah, because I think logically, you do have to load up your top unit when you have those guys. I agree. But logically, somebody should be able to get the skeleton key to unlock it. And I just, I can't for the life of me believe it's these players that are incapable of scoring on the power play at the end of all these seasons, that there's not something different schematically that will unlock it. Yeah, and I honestly do wonder if the, and I know you said, let's just operate with the understanding that it'll be here, but let's operate with the opposite understanding. If Mitch Marner is not on this team, the least power play is fundamentally different than it's been the entire time he's been here. Yep. And not to say it's better, probably worse to be perfectly honest. Like, we know what Marner is capable of, but sometimes when you have as much talent as the Leafs would still have without him, different can be better, even if it should on paper kind of be worse. And I'm not saying it's an addition by subtraction thing, but it's just it's got so stagnant where they have bumped their head against the wall with the same four to five guys. And I do wonder if a Marner trade, again, you don't trade Marner to fix your power play. But if you remove that guy, does it just change the furniture in such a major way that it kind of allows the dam to break. And again, I'll say this as this is the team that has had a top six, seven power play in the NHL over the three, four seasons we're talking about here. Can you believe Mark Savard's going to be working for the Toronto Maple Leafs? Like when he was sitting in here, working with us? No, like watching him and Gordon McPizza at night? No, I can't. Sorry. Can you believe that like, because here's what's going to happen here. If Mark Savard does the damn thing and he has head coaching experience in the OHLs, which has been the fires, yeah, before his return to the assistant coaching ranks, like if he has success here in this role, where like, there's an obvious path to him having success, Mark Savard's going to be a head coach in the National Hockey League. Yeah, well, and it's also that he won't wear it, right? The players will, because everybody's tried. There'll be frustration with him and we'll have the Manny Melholter of, what does it you do here? If he were to stick around to not be coach of the power play still, but because so many guys who say what you will, like I made my Gebouché jokes, but it's like, I think he knows how to coach power play. I don't think it's his fault. I think you need a new voice when things don't go right, but I also don't think we're going to sit here at the end of the season. Like, if the Leafs flame out in the first round next year, because they go one for 20 on the power play, you know what we're not doing? Savvy's fault. How dare he? I'm not going to be doing that. I'd be floored if I would. Yeah. Well, also because we're going to defend Mark Savard at all costs, obviously. He now is employed by the Leafs. He used to be our colleague and he loves golf. Yeah. Checking a lot of boxes for your boy. Last check. He was sporting a 0.6 handicap. Wonder if he'll be able to keep that up, though. Being an assistant coach in Toronto. They'll tell you your joke on the text line all of you. I know. Hey, keep that up, boy. But it can. Yeah. All right. When we come back, Rob Longley had the story yesterday that Kevin Gossman wants to keep the band together. The only way to do that is to win more games. Luckily for them, they have another series upcoming against the White Sox who they were able to take two of three from first series victory in a month. We'll talk to Rob Longley of the Toronto Sun next. The fan morning show continues. Ben Anis, Brent Gunning, Sportsnet 590, the fan. Dive deep into Toronto Sports and the NFL. The J.D. Bunk is podcast. Subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. [Music] Ben Morning, Sportsnet 590, the fan. Ben Anis, Brent Gunning. So that was John Schneider. And he said like two of the three things he said that are actually happening. The jacket and the red carpet. Which makes me think that like the bathing suit was like in discussions. I mean, I can't think of bathing suit in baseball without like the golden thong of Jason Jambi. That's like burned into my brain. It's like it's happened before in the sport. Maybe, maybe John Schneider's been wearing a Speedo all along. I hope not. Our next guest is an incredible investigative reporter. Okay. He's gonna get to the bottom of this thing. It's Rob Longley of the Toronto Sun. How's it going Rob? Good morning guys. Not really sure that I want to think of John Schneider and a Speedo and I'm sure he would agree with that. Absolutely. I think you're probably right. I think he's a drunk guy. That was mean to put that in your head at 7.35 in the morning. But yeah, man, it's the story sweep in the nation. Okay. The jacket is back. Anything to to spark this offense, obviously. Do you think? So we heard from Vlad before the season that he wanted the jacket back. And it took until late May for it to be back. I don't know how much you know the inner workings of the jacket, jacket conversation. But if you had to guess, like, was this, uh, there's like the jacket faction and the non jacket faction and eventually they did the non jackets got overwhelmed here. Or is it just like, Hey man, we got to do something baseball's weird and superstition. Sometimes you do a thing and for no apparent reason, it seems to spark you. Like where are you on? What happened and why yesterday was the return of the jacket? I got to figure it's the, we need to try something, anything right now faction that won over this. I was never a huge fan of the jacket towards the end because I thought it was getting a little bit silly, but I wasn't like adamant that it should be gone or upset that it was gone or anything like that. I think it's just, but baseball players are like that. It's a long season. It's 162 games when things aren't going so well. You'll sometimes look for something just to change the mood, just to offer a little bit of a spark and, you know, things were electric when that jacket was around and why not? Now that you needed something that they don't hit home runs. They don't score runs and all of a sudden one night the jackets back, they win a series. They score nine runs and all is well in the world for a day. Yeah, for for a day at least certainly a very different conversation than the one we were having one day previous after the, I think about the fourth time this year that they've allowed or scratched over just two hits in a game. It's just, it has been, it has been a listless offense for a lot of times this year. And yeah, it is a long season. I've been adamant. Like I was not, I'm with you long, like I'm not a, not a jacket fan if I have to be in one camper or the other, but I also totally understand it. And I think there's an element of the team tried this serious thing, right? Like they changed the clubhouse. They altered the roster. And you know, I know it wasn't just because of that, but they trade away, Lord, as they trade away, Tay Oscar. And it seems like the serious bent they wanted to take didn't necessarily work. So I think that was even more reason to kind of lean into this. And I don't think it has to be about the jacket, but it's about the kind of demeanor of the team and the vibe of the clubhouse as well. Yeah, I agree. And you know, the demeanor is an important part right now because I think pretty much to a man in that clubhouse, they recognize that they really have to indoctrinate that the old sports cliche of one game at a time right now. And it's because of the whole that they dug themselves into. You know, they realized that they can't look beyond what has happened already because they've dug themselves into that hole. They can't look too far ahead because again, the hole is too deep. They've got to try to win every day, get to 500 and then see what they can make up the season. They realize that if they look at the big picture too long right now, it's almost like it's too daunting. And I think that's a workable mindset for this team that believes it's capable of better things and really has to focus on the day to day because of the position that they put themselves in. Yeah. And if they don't turn around like Kevin Gossman rightly told you, they're going to be broken up. Whether it's this year, whether it's the off season, whether it's middle and next year, this is not going to be sustainable if they don't score and they don't win. So to that to that end, Rob, and maybe there's a connection to the jacket here as well. Like how much does this team enjoy playing with each other? And how much do they do you sense believe in their ability to bounce out of this thing? You know, you never really know because you're not in a clubhouse full time. And I suspect that there's a fair bit of frustration about a lot of things really the way last season ended. Of course, the way the off season unfolded and the way this season has gone so far. But overall, I think that they're a group that believes in themselves. They realize that there is a lot of talent. We haven't seen it much offensively yet this year, but it's certainly there in their past performances. There's definitely a recognition that the pitching staff is capable of being as good as anyone in baseball as they were last year. And there's the recognition that they can play well defensively. But overriding all that right now is the harsh recognition that they're not playing anywhere near to their capabilities. And that it's time to do something about it because as as Gosman told me when we discussed it the other day, it's like, yeah, we're smart. We know how the standings work. We know how management works. If we don't turn this around two months, this could be over. And Kevin Gosman, like he loves the idea of playing in Toronto. He signed out long term deal here. He was a rarity in a Toronto baseball athlete and that he bought a home. He's embraced the city. He really wants to see what this country is capable of when the J's go on a toward winning streak and maybe a postseason run. Like he believes in all of that stuff. So the frustration for him personally is that the team isn't there yet. And he doesn't want the gang to break up. He wants them to get back on track and make something out of this. In his opinion, it would be kind of tragic to see it end the way that it's headed in the current situation. So he had a slow start, but yeah, it's looked more like the Kevin Gosman we expected recently. And I think there's mitigating factors as to why he started the way he did. And he's been open about maybe rushing back too quickly from the injury he's sustained. But the pitchers by and large, despite the fact that like the numbers don't necessarily suggest that they've been one of the best starting staffs in all of baseball, their middle of the road and ERA, I think we can all agree that they've largely held up their end of the bargain. At a certain point here, Rob, and maybe it's already starting and maybe like the Gosman comments or an indication of such is they're going to be a rafter like a division within this team where the pitchers like, what are we supposed to do? Like we can't win 0 to negative one. Like, oh, I'm sorry, you say Kikuchi gave up two earned runs over six innings. That's the death nail for this team. Like at what point is there going to be some real, if not explicit, like some some tension between the pitchers and the position players in this team? Yeah, you know, I don't know if you'd ever really hear it verbalized. You certainly, it's unlikely that you would hear here such a sentiment verbalized publicly. But I mean, I think on some nights you can almost see it in the way the pitchers approach things. Like if they get to the, if they get to the fourth inning and they're, you know, they're trailing to nothing. It's like, you know, I'm having not a bad outing, but are we going to get some runs here? And then, and then so that the pressure kind of ramps up on them and it ramps up on the bullpen as well. And that's a difficult situation to perform under. And you know, I think that Buck Martinez alluded to it at least a couple of times last night that Chris Bassett really needed a night like last night. He needed to have that seven-run second inning and a nine-nothing lead so that you could just go out with sort of like a stress-free outing. The pitchers need that every once in a while. They need that run support. They need to be able to operate without that pressure of like, you know what? If I give up two runs, we may be doomed here. So while I don't think it would be verbalized, I think that it's more significantly. It's added pressure on a pretty good group and an unnecessary pressure, a pressure that they shouldn't have to operate under. Yeah, you're right. I mean, hey, like every good pitcher is going to have a few nights a year where they don't get any runs important. It's going to be tough, but that's the point of being good. And you know, it is funny to imagine. I think you're right. I don't know that it ever ultimately boils over, but I can see a world where if it did, the pitchers are going. And not you though, Jan-O. You come with us. It's like, you don't count. You're hitting. You help us out. You can be part of this kind of club here. When do you think this team kind of gets to its pivot point in season if we get to it? I mean, I don't think they're ready to capitulate on a kukuchi trade or anything like that yet. But at what point in the year, or maybe I should say at what point do they fall so far back? And I don't know that they're not there yet. They could easily claw back against the tigers in this set. And it's too early to be looking at wildcard standings. But at what point do they have to pivot and make a decision? Because if this is going to be a team that sells off some pieces, it doesn't always work this way. But if you kind of jump the market, you could definitely get a premium for your pieces. At what point in time do you think they start seriously having those considerations? In my opinion, it really probably wouldn't come much before, you know, barring calamity, barring like a long losing streak over the next few weeks, it makes it, you know, obvious that there's no way to get back. I wouldn't think that they would hit that pivot point until a couple of weeks before the trade deadline. Because as we've seen over the last decade or so, most of the deals don't get done until closer to the deadlines, certainly within a week of that time frame. You know, and I think there's a lot more at play here. It's very complicated. Like, do you want to bail on Library of Junior and Boba Shedd, and what are the implications going forward? If you do that, do you ever get a free agent to come back to this city? If there's a recognition that you're not able to even keep the two homegrown superstars that you've had, there's the whole idea of filling the Roger Center, you know, when those club suites are all open later in the summer, they put a lot of money into that place, and they want that they want to keep that vibe that's been, let's face it, pretty strong since about 2015 now. So there's all sorts of external forces at play, and I think the overriding one is that there are so many teams in play. The way the wild card structure is now, you're never really out of it. But the Jays, they've got a lot of work to do. They've got to pass a lot of teams. But in terms of straight games to make up, there's really not that many to get into a wild card spot. And as Gosman said, when we spoke the other night, what we need is a 20-win month. We get ourselves a 20-win month, which, let's face it, based on current form or the form so far this season, is still a big ask. But it's doable. They get a 20-win month and they're right in the thick of things. And there's two more of those months to go before the trade deadline. Yeah, three and a half games back of a wild card spot are the Toronto Blue Jays, because you don't have to be very good to make playoffs in Major League Baseball in 2024. As exemplified, honestly, by last season's Blue Jays team, which made the playoffs with 89 wins, or the Diamondbacks, who eventually made the World Series with 84. Before that you go here, Rob. George Springer, not playing yesterday's scheduled day off, which she's allowed to have and should have, especially considering he played all those games last season, two very limited results. I wonder if they could start messaging like, "Hey, we're going to have more of those things as a way to one, maybe get the best of George Springer when he's on the field." But also, like, not that Cavumbigio was a huge reason why the Blue Jays scored nine runs yesterday, but he's on base twice. And George Springer still brings value defensively, especially in right field. But could we see more days off for George Springer going forward? I think probably, I mean, because historically throughout his career, he's had difficulty staying healthy for 162 games. And ironically, sort of, last year was one of his most healthiest seasons. It happened to be one of his poorest seasons performance-wise. But, you know, maybe he is the kind of guy that needs a little bit of a break. And I hate to keep going back to Kevin Gossman, but another thing that he mentioned to me the other night when we spoke was that he really liked the configuration of the batting order right now. And he was talking about it as a starting pitcher how it, and his opinion, it's more difficult to navigate than it was two or three weeks ago. He loves the idea of David Schneider leading off, because he says he's a guy just so young that he doesn't understand the pressures that go with that position. And he's just going up there with carefree at bats. He can give you a home run, he can give you a double, he can give you a walk, which is kind of prototypical. But where's the triple? But where's the triple, right? Yeah, well, maybe he's got to work on the wheel. But his larger point was he thinks that for now anyway, George Springer is effective at the six-pot. He doesn't have that weight of the world on his shoulders. And we even seen some hints in those first couple of games that there were perhaps some better at bats for him as he doesn't have to worry about the pressures, whether they're external or internal in his own head of being lead off guy and having to perform in that spot. Yeah, it's worked out so far against the worst team in baseball. Who they get again in four more games where they play a below 500 Tigers team in Detroit. Rob, great job with the Gossman stuff and all season long. Appreciate it. Yeah, let's do it again, guys. Thanks. Sounds good. Rob Longley of the Toronto Sun. It is. I agree with him that he's right to downplay a little bit the idea that there's some, you know, rift forming here. But if I wanted to read between the lines, you know, Kevin Gossman just like coming, you know, out on his owner, you know, I'm sure he was asked a question, but like being forthright about, yeah, do kind of like this new look lineup that that to me does kind of play into. And I don't mean it to be like there's two factions in the clubhouse and these guys loathe each other, but it's only human nature. How could you not be frustrated giving what this staff has given pretty much every single night and given what this offense is given on the exact opposite end of the spectrum. It's pretty telling to me that he is being so forthright about the new look of the lineup here. I think it's, I think it leads, leaves a little breadcrumbs for the theory of there being a possible rift. And it's again, it's not like these guys loathe each other. It's just human nature of one group's reforming one group's not, there's going to be some animosity there. Yeah. And maybe George Springer's playing the role of Zach Wilson here. We got, you know, Jets offense versus their defense. But and you know what, he had, he got the numbers in front of who's the Blue Jays Aaron Rogers? That's the question. No comment, please no comment. George Springer has actually been better out of the six hole as opposed to leading off. Got a robust 583 OBS batting sixth as opposed to 554 leading off. And and George Springer was bad last season offensively, but he's still league average players. So like if your belief is that he can return to that, there's still long ways to go to bridge that gap. And that means a strong run of plays still coming from George Springer. I do. The other thing Rob said in that interview, which we haven't considered. And we should maybe consider it specifically with George Springer as well. Blue Jays do have to consider the perception they give outside forces to the decisions that are made. I guess in season with the bow and Vlad thing, although I tend to think that's different. But like specifically with the George Springer at all, the guy that was signed to the contract that was the richest in history in the history of the Toronto Blue Jays. And who was league average last season, but has two more years beyond this year at at $24 million. Okay. And I tend to think generally the money is the overriding factor in any of these free agent decisions. But not for nothing. Like if you treat this guy who's a legend of the game and if you subtract the trash can banging from the equation is like a borderline Hall of Famer in George Springer World Series MVP. Like he if he had put forth a few more seasons, I think if this is the end of it being an effective major leaguer, he's probably not the conversation. Not that long about George Springer being a Hall of Famer, but like that's what we're talking about. The Blue Jays going out and getting George Springer at the time is like, holy cow. And then like three years later, he's relegated to hitting seventh or out of the lineup entirely. And I know that's what the money's for yada yada yada. But the Blue Jays more than other teams do have to consider the perception to other pending free agents, the rest of the baseball world. Yeah, I think you're right to point that out. I also think that is more important in terms of messaging and how you, you know, publicly treat him in all of this. I think that, you know, all these guys are athletes. They all understand the idea of performance ruling the day. And I don't think, you know, pick your player that the Blue Jays are going to be giving the extra year to or throwing in an extra few million a season to make it all work. I don't think they're going to sit there when they're at the peak of their power signing their free agent deal going, Oh yeah. And in three years, I'm going to be terrible. And I got to be careful about how the Blue Jays are going to affect me. I think you're ultimately right that money will override it. They can't be seen to be disrespectful to him, but they also can't be afraid to put him where he needs to be in this line. Yeah, I think the bone vlog thing is different because if those guys were good, I don't have any doubt. And Bo has been good and I expect Bo to continue to be good and hit a home run and he's heating up. And, you know, every year of his career finishes with an OBS North of 800 and has been off to similar starts. I think Blue Jays are going to engage him in legitimate extension conversations. Like the Vlad thing is, yeah, okay, if Vlad was everything we thought he would be in was the 2021 version year over year over year, like maybe he's pushing them, like maybe he's doing the one sort of Scott Boris thing, right? He's taking this thing down to free agency and maximizing his dollars. But I fully believe that the team with a top five payroll and all the baseball would have been involved in conversations and retaining him. Yeah, there's no world where if Vlad was who he was supposed to be or whatever that the money wouldn't have been there. Well, that's so like if you're a pending free agent and like the Blue Jays continue to go down the toilet here and they're in a sell off mode and the best way to recoup enough assets to to hasten the return to relevance would be to trade one of if not both of those guys. I wouldn't do that as like, whoa, they they act like a small market team routinely. What if I sign there and all of a sudden they decide to slash payroll? I don't necessarily think that that would be the perception. And I don't think it should be. I don't agree. I do agree with you there. I think the other thing you have to throw into that as well is what we talked about yesterday is Vlad's perception. Forget what it is among front offices. What do you think players still think of Vlad? I imagine he has viewed much in the way when you talk to former players. So I think that's the other part of it is Vlad's a kind of unique, unique person in that regard just with the pedigree and the belief people in the game have it. All right, time now for the Wakenrake presented by sports interaction, your homegrown sports book, 19 plus bet responsibly Blue Jays on the road in Detroit to play the Tigers. And the first of four, Jack Flaherty getting the start today against Kevin Gossman. You can watch the game on sports and one or listen on sportsnet 590, the fan starting at six o'clock and then Jay's talk with Blair and Barker after the game on radio. It has the Blue Jays coming off their huge series victory over the worst human baseball minus 120 favorites going to Detroit to play a middling Tigers team. The Tigers are even money plus 100 the total seven and a half year Brent Kevin Gossman is on the bump. The Blue Jays ain't going to do that again offensively under seven and a half minus 105. This thing I'm feeling best about in that game. Easy. Yeah, I don't think there's much more than that that you have to consider. But yeah, I know they scored nine runs in a baseball game. You know, it's more likely the team that scored the second fewest runs in all the major league baseball. Probably not going to follow that up with another nine run performance. And yeah, Kevin Gossman looks a whole lot like his former self recently. So yeah, I'm down with taking the under in that game. That was the waking rate presented by sports interaction. Your homegrown sports book 19 plus bet responsibly. When we come back, talk to our guy Nick Kiprios of Real Kipper and Born. As the fan morning show continues, Ben and his prank gunning sportsnet 590, the fan.
