In an event that has baffled scientists, the Earth has slowed down to add a 25th hour to the day, and businesses are scrambling to adapt. 24/7 businesses and now 25/7 businesses, those that work around the clock will work around a bigger clock, and anyone wishing for more hours in a day, well, wish granted. Anything can change the world of work. In other news, I just realized I'm reporting more, so I'd like a raise. From HR to payroll, ADP designs forward-thinking solutions to take on the next anything. ADP, always designing for people. Welcome to Drinking Bros. presented by GhostBed.com. Sit back, relax, and grab a fucking drink. Welcome to Drinking Bros. We've been dying to do this episode for a while. Nailed it Dan. Nailed it. Yeah. Really on fire today. Good about it. We've got Dr. Cyril Wecht on the show today, who is one of the very best in their field. My gosh, man, I feel like you've done it all. You're a forensic pathologist, you're also an attorney, and a medical legal consultant. What haven't you done in that field? Well, I appreciate, first of all, gentlemen, you're having invited me to participate in the program, it's a great opportunity to share some thoughts with fewer millions of listeners. Thank you very much. Well, I have done a lot in legal medicine and forensic pathology, and I've had the wonderful opportunity to become involved by way of consultations, from families, attorneys, news media, and governmental agencies in a variety of cases, going back to JFK, which was my first big introduction into the case of national celebrity and controversial cases, and continuing all the way through to the present time. I've dealt with attorneys in civil and criminal matters from all over the United States, and indeed, from perhaps a dozen different countries, I've testified in several different countries about some of these cases, and I have also been invited to lecture on some of these cases in many countries, particularly the JFK assassination. Yeah, you've done over 17,000 autopsies that you've... Well, it's 21,000. You have the old... You've done 4,000 since then. You were busy with me. Well, I average, I do now between my colleague and me about 270 a year prior to her coming on board, and two and a half years ago, I was doing more than 500 myself. So since I started doing these medical legal autopsies in 1962, and before that, all of the hospital autopsies from 1957 for those four or five years before I went into forensic technology, you can see how those numbers added up. And then I've revealed supervisor signed off on about 41,000 other autopsies. Oh, yeah, your numbers are crazy, and you're one of those guys where as soon as someone sees your face, you're like, "Wait a minute, isn't that guy in that one murder show testifying about everything?" And you're like, "Yeah, my wife is oddly into murders." Oddly, every white woman in America sits around all day listening to true crime documentaries and podcasts and whatever else. It's actually trying to find a special way on how to get away with murder. Yeah. I think that's what it is. They're all super unhappy with their husbands. They're just trying to figure it out. But here's what I... How do I kill this guy? Exactly. And here's what I find super odd about this is you have become a celebrity in your own right from doing all of these shows. But just as a profession that you actually do in real life, did you ever think it would get to where it is as far as most of these murder cases going around the world and being extremely famous and stuff like that? I know you've worked on the JFK thing, and obviously that's an obvious one. But some of these others, you had to sit back and be like, "Really? Everybody wants to keep hearing about this over and over again." Yeah, no, well, there's no way in which I plan this nor in any way in which I anticipated all of this. And it all started with my presentation of a paper at the American Academy of Forensic Sciences in February 1965, reviewing the Warren Commission report. And then it just mushroomed since that time to the present time. And then following JFK, in various ways, sometimes through colleagues who consulted me, like Dr. Tom Negushi in the RFK assassination and Sharon Tait-Lavianca murders, and Patty Hurst, the Civilian Liberation Army cases, and then from others that have continued through the years. And then Dr. Martin Luther King, I participated in the autopsy in James Earl Ray, and then going through the years Elvis Presley, and Gene Harris, and then the Waco Branch Civilian, and Sean Gilevi, and on into Ron, Secretary of Commerce, Ron Brown, White House counsel Vincent Foster, O.J. Simpson, John Benet Ramsey, and Phil Spector. And I'm sure many others that I've forgotten to mention. So these cases have indeed been mushroomed, and I have taken the opportunity to put many of these together in summary fashion, along with other autobiographical material in my book, which was just recently published, My Autobiography, just about three weeks ago, The Life and Deaths of Cyril Wecht, memoirs of America's most controversial runs of pathologies. I recommend that book for people who are interested in true crime, in forensic science, in many of these cases, as well as further background information about the criminal justice system, how it works, how it can be perverted, how it can be thwarted, how it can be suppressed, manipulated by governmental agencies, by private individuals, and so on. So think about that. The cases are fantastic, and people continue to be interested. I just had a call earlier today, and we'll be doing a program, once again, on Brittany Murphy. I've done Brittany Murphy case in Australia, I've done Brittany Murphy case in other parts of the country. I did a Kurt Cobain case a couple months ago for a station in Athens, Greece. I'm talking to the world, people are fascinated by these cases. They are. Look, I watched that Kurt Cobain doc on Netflix that you did. Soaked in bleach. Soaked in bleach, and it was fantastic, and to be honest with you, there's some conspiracies I'm not willing to entertain where I just think it's too much. Even the Kurt Cobain one, in my opinion, right? And then I watched Soaked in bleach, and I was like, maybe, maybe the rights. Since you've done everything there is, let's start there, and then we'll kind of go backwards into some of our favorite hits, like JBR, No J, and those guys. With Kurt Cobain, in that movie, they bring up the possibility that it was Courtney had hired someone to kill Kurt Cobain. Do you believe that Kurt Cobain killed himself or someone else had? I believe that he killed himself, and let me tell you why. And I deal with hard facts, and I agree with you, some conspiratorial theorists, people know over the place, and I am constantly rejecting some of these people's theories, and plus they go too far. So I'll give it to you, Kurt Cobain there, in the fancy apartment above the garage, separate from his house, a known drug addict, as well as, of course, the great musical celebrity that he was. So he had his own special kit, beautiful brown leather case, in which he kept the syringe, a needle, a tourniquet, the drugs, band-aids, a skin, a cleanser, and so on. So here's what you have to believe, if you believe, that it was a suicide. Kurt Cobain injected himself with heroin. A quantity sufficient, if it were divided into four parts, aliquats, it would have been enough to kill four different people, okay? But at that point, man, you're in heaven, you're in nirvana, many, many of the drug deaths that we deal with, the needle is still in the person's arm, or sometimes it's just found right there, nirvana strength. So here's what you ask, are asked to accept. And Kurt Cobain, if you go with the suicide, he injects himself with that amount, which takes effect immediately, injected into the vein. You understand that, it goes into the venous system and hits the brain in seconds. He takes the needle out of his arm, he detaches the needle from the syringe, he cleans it off, he places both the syringe and the needle, having cleaned out the syringe also, places them back into this special kit, the tourniquet also, cleans off the skin, closes it up, packages it, sets it aside, then he reaches over, takes the shotgun and shoots himself. And the position of the shotgun was not either in a position in which you would expect it to have been had he shot himself. So you say, how could this have been for the police who came there, and they weren't even experienced criminal homicide detectives, they just assumed that it was a suicide. That's what we reported to them, and that's what it looked like and so on. They never did a scene investigation, trace evidence, physical evidence, fingerprints, footprints and so on. Nobody was ever interrogated, whether it was Courtney Love, his wife from whom he was in the process of obtaining a divorce, and I don't know her, I've read about her, apparently a controversial, tough cookie in her own right. I'll leave that for someone else to ascertain. Yeah, I've met her in real life, I mean, you, you figured out, I've never seen anything like that ever in my life, or haven't ever heard of anything like that. Wait, so you still think that Cobain killed himself though, right? Well, no, no, no, you don't leave that. I don't. Yeah. I'm sorry if I did not make that point clear. No, it's not fine. I just wanted to have an executive himself in that state that he was in psychologically emotionally from a pathophysiological standpoint, said he was then going to either have the need or the desire or the ability to go and take the shotgun and shoot, no, no, I do not get a shot. Yeah, that's, that is a lot to, you, you really have to suspend your disbelief, a number of different ways to believe it. Yeah, and I have met her and she is crazy. And it also wouldn't put, put it, I don't, well, that's not a fact though. That's just your. No, but I'm telling you, when you, when you get to know her, like she, I understand that, she was concerned about the money and they made this point in the documentary where, you know, cause the band hole hadn't blown up yet, like it hadn't taken off until after he committed suicide. And there was so much fascination into the group hole and in particular her after she gave that speech and for all those people crying and it got a ton of press that it was like, all right, but what happened up until that point and then why were you so ready to drop an album? What was it? Eight days after he died? Right. That always has seemed like she needed money. She's continued to sell bits and pieces of that back catalog, which, you know, the members of Nirvana are pissed about like, um, this was the first documentary that laid it all out and, and posed the questions of like, how could someone else do this? Now there was a guy there, like a groundskeeper or something that they said Courtney was talking to. Do you have any, uh, guesses on who it would have been besides Courtney? Because I don't think she could have pulled the trigger herself. She was the last thing I don't think that she herself pulled the trigger most unlikely. Um, I would only say this, um, that people who are interested in this case should see soaked in bleach. I have no financial interest in that documentary at all. I want to make that very, very clear. So I'm not promoting that. I do work with the people that did, uh, write it and produce it. Very serious, intelligent, um, uh, gentlemen. And, uh, I, this is all I can say, uh, watch soak in bleach and you arrive at your own conclusion. That's what I love about, uh, your stuff though, because look, there's a lot of documentaries and biopics that take a lot of liberties with evidence, as it were hand, uh, you're kind of known for, uh, not giving a shit for lack of a better phrase about how the information is going to affect anybody. The information is the information facts or the facts we present. Yeah. So you have to deal with forensic scientific facts. You know, I've been in this business now, is I finished everything in law and first ecology in 1962. So that is, uh, what 58 years I've been doing medical legal consultations. And I don't say this in a negative way, but if you, um, manipulate, if you engage in conjecture, if you come up with answers and comments that are appropriate and necessary by somebody at that time, and then do something of an inconsistent nature later on, that's going to come back to haunt you. There's no way in the world that I can continue to be functioning successfully with cases coming in every week from all over the country. Um, I just got a case from Israel last week of a homicide there, I, sometimes from around the world. But if you, if you don't maintain your credibility, people, you know, and nowadays don't forget and you gentlemen are skilled at this, um, it's not like the old days where you would have to go back and get transcripts and so on. Nowadays you press the button here, press the button there and you could find out what somebody said in the Jones case, what somebody said in the Smith case. And then you have all the records immediately to disposal. So inconsistencies would, would stand up like, like a glaring light in the middle of total darkness and how long would it take before somebody would confront you with this? And you know, you would lose all of your credibility. So I'm proud of the fact that my record is out there and not because I'm always right and the other people can't disagree with me and I want to make it clear that there are things in pathology and medicine, which are not tangibly concretely 100% certain. The only scientific entity that is 100% absolute is cellular DNA. Everything else is susceptible, subjective to interpretation and so on. Like the comorbidity debate that's going on with COVID right now. Human beings who aren't medical scientists don't understand what that means or what the implications are. And you know, the government media, depending on where you fall in the spectrum, use that information in a way without explaining the context. And then people find out there is context and they weren't told about it. And that builds distrust in the institution. That is a problem, right? I mean, it's a problem that people don't understand it, but it's also a problem that we didn't take the time to explain all this stuff to people. And now they think they're being lied to. In a lot of cases, the truth is being massaged like a deep tissue massage, right? I mean, a lot of things are happening that are very weird right now. I wonder from your perspective, as somebody who, like you said for the last half a century has been working in this field that depends on science and facts and at a level where you're dealing with the government vis-a-vis investigations and the criminal justice process. How do you feel right now about the very clear lack of trust in pretty much any institution, particularly science and government in the West right now? Well, it's unfortunate at the same time, it is perhaps good to have a current. If you go back to the early '60s, when the JFK assassination occurred and even into RFK and MLK, five years later in 1968, you have a period in which everybody accepted what the government told them. There was a question, government would lie to them and so on. You mean, like, all the information put out in the 1950s about heart disease, for example? None of which is true. And some of it is still on government websites about the food pyramid and making sure you get enough grains in your diet, like, come on, man. It's like the government still put some of that stuff out. Yeah. None of that is true. That's right. And it wasn't until later in years that people began to question other things. And as you guys know, with your military background and so on, we're still learning, aren't we, about some things that happened in the Korean War and the Vietnam War and so on that were assured that we were lied to and so on. I had the great pleasure, many years ago, one of the nice things about growing old, unlike the bad things, like a store back and difficulties with other sensory and the perceptive and motor coordinated skills. But one of the good things about growing old is you remember, and you had the opportunity to deal. You were dealing and talking with Henry Rothblad who handled the Meelo massacre and so on. I remember talking with Henry, so when people maintain their naivete and say, oh, the government, we're not the Russians. We're not in KVD, KGB, we're not the Chinese, we're not all those totalitarian nations, the time time of Kootie and so on, we do things, always pure and noble and clean and honest and accurate and so on, you know, it just isn't true, it just isn't so. Right. Yeah. And it's interesting, like, you know, a lot of these things get hidden, the one you were talking about earlier with a Kurt Cobain case, the police files have been sealed and still not been revealed to the public and they're not, they just pushed it again, like another 20 years. And it's like, amen, if that was true and you guys, this was an easy question. What's the problem? Yeah. What's the problem? Just release the police. And that takes me back to JFK. Yeah. Which is what about the withholding tens of thousands of pages about the overall investigation by the Warren Commission report, we're holding it back for national security. Let me ask you guys, you're more expert at this than I am. Have Lee Harvey Oswald, according to the Warren Commission, was alone a single nut and he just decided to kill the president. Right. And under the Warren Commission report, and there are no ands, ifs, maybes, buts, however, more overs or so on, you either buy the Warren Commission report or you don't. And if you buy the report, what you are saying is that Oswald from the beginning to the end had no input by anybody at all, okay? So that there it is and, you know, you have to then get into the details and deal with the facts and they were withheld and they are there. Obviously, they are there as we came to learn later on that they had to deal with. Yeah. So in your opinion, because we've discussed this numerous times on our show, we'll start with the JFK one for you because that's when you got started. What was your personal belief? Do you think it was Oswald himself? Was there somebody on the grassy knoll? Do you believe in any of that? And if not, who did it? Our personal belief on the show is that Oswald did do it. There wasn't a person on the grassy knoll. But I'm sure you look, you got you got to see all the ins and outs of it, obviously. Well, gentlemen, I, yeah, well, we shall respectfully disagree with each other. And really, whether Oswald was a shooter or not, fine, I don't even have to get into that. This all I have to do is prove that there was a second shooter in that sort of conspiracy and the laws of 50 states and the federal government, two or more people involved in the planning execution covering up there after any kind of a crime makes it a conspiracy. Right. Okay. So let's talk about this. You have to begin with the doctors at Parkland Hospital working on the president, one of them, Dr. Robert McClellan, who I had the pleasure of meeting and talking with personally, and go in yourselves and see his interview at the 6th floor museum, Dallas and see what he has to say that he and the other doctors about what they saw in the president's head. McClellan was holding the retractor for 18 minutes, serving right into the brain. Right. He was the chairman of the department of the neurosurgery. He was there. What they saw, they saw damage to the back of the president's brain. They saw a piece of the cerebellum, which is located in the rear inferiorly of the cranial vault. They saw a piece of it actually fall out and so on. Okay. So to begin with, then the medical examiner, Dr. Earl Rose, a board certified forensic biologist who might come to know when I was in the Air Force, it was there to take control. He was the medical examiner at Dallas. They pushed him aside. They threatened him and they took the body of the president and went to Washington, D.C. Okay. As a matter of fact, although it wasn't planned, that really should have been to their advantage because they gave them time to bring together the foremost forensic pathologies in the country to do this. I thought to keep in mind, gentlemen, multiple gunshot wounds, you have to determine interest and exit or anger to reject your sequence. And then you have to correlate those wounds in Kennedy with the wounds in college. You realize what a formidable task this is? I mean, my God, I can't even be horrendous. Any time I would case somebody who's been shot multiple times, it's a very difficult task. I've done this many times, like the all case, the African gentleman who was shot and killed in Washington in New York City by the cops fired 17 times. I had to do a second autopsy, okay? So to do this autopsy. So for you guys, and all your listeners who continue to believe the word mystery important, you have to begin with the evidentiary burden of answering to me and to the American public. How is it for that case of the president of the United States of America shot down in broad daylight in the fourth largest city of the country with all of those things to be ascertained, they wouldn't call upon two career military naval pathologies, humans and boys, well, at the vist and naval center to do this autopsy, who had never done a single gunshot wound autopsy in their entire careers. Does that give you pause? Yes. I mean, it's that what that tells me is they brought in a guy that would do what they said. You bet your ass, baby, that's exactly what it was. And by the way, the round use to kill JFK was a six point five, basically, not like a creed war, but it's not a very common round, no, you probably know more about that than I did. We got talked with long gone experts here. We have a lot of hundreds and shooters in Pennsylvania. Everybody agrees. It's the most inferior weapon of his genre, developed anywhere in the world. Nobody laughs at it more than the Italians. I gave this program at the Institute of Legal Medicine in Rome and the professors there were laughing. I was embarrassed. I thought they were laughing at me. I found out later from the director with whom I had become good friends. And he spoke English. He said to me, so he always said, no, I'm going to laughing at you. The laughing, when you talked about the manicure, in Italy, the manicure card money is considered to be an instrument of love, not a weapon of water. So are you saying that there was multiple shooters in the JFK shooter from behind the picket fence on the grassy gnaw, and then you get in dial to the head wounds and the radiographic, the neurological, the neurosurgical, the acoustical evidence, everything fits in exactly. And that extensive work, many, many of my colleagues and research had gone over. And remember this, and too, you say you continue to believe you have to buy the single bullet theory because the single bullet theory is the center quin on of the Warren Commission reports conclusion, these are the Oswald as a sole assassin, without the single bullet theory. It cannot be such a conclusion. The single bullet theory has one bullet going in the Kennedy's back moving upward 11 and a half degrees. I haven't been fired for the six for a window moving downward. It comes into the back and moves up 11 and a half degrees. X is for the front of his neck, comes out moving to the left and downward. Here's Connolly sitting directly in front of the president. The bullet turns in midair, comes over, hits Connolly behind the right armpit, not the left shoulder, not the left armpit, behind the right armpit, goes into the chest, pierces the right line, these stories, four inches of the right fifth rib, X is below nipple level. Look at the zippeter film, Connolly's holding that white sets and hat, waving to the crowd like this, the hat is at shoulder level, the bullet emerging downward, below nipple level comes out and comes up and around and goes into the back of his wrist, produces a commuted fracture of the radius, one of the two long bones from the elbow to the wrist, a large bone, especially a six foot four big bone text in like Connolly, X is from the front of his wrist, goes down into the left thigh and somehow works his way out of the left thigh under the stretcher to be found fortuitously by a maintenance man trying to get to the men's room after the presidential entourage on the left and finding a bullet on near beneath the stretcher that nobody else had seen, a 6.5 millimeter bullet, a bullet with a copper jacket entirely intact, no deformity at the nose, the cone, the jacket of the bullet, none at all, weighing 158.6 grains from its original weight of 161 grains, a loss of 1.5 grains, despite having enough pieces of itself in four-hand atomic location of Connolly and that is the single bullet theory. So you accept the Warren Commission report vis-a-vis Oswald? No. No, no, no, I don't accept the Warren Commission report, I just know personally, if I was in that location, even with that weapon, I could take four or five shots in that amount of time that he took, three shots, or at least the theory that he took three shots. I know that I could put, I could easily put rounds accurately on that target from that location without any problem at all. That's my thinking behind it. Now, there's another addition to all this that we haven't brought up yet, and it's that all this stuff that was looked at through the brain and blah, blah, blah, even if you accept all these things as coincidence or whatever, his brain is missing now. You guys know that, right? I mean, you know, you obviously know that it's been missing for years. Yeah. 1970. Okay. No, go ahead. Go ahead. Do you know where it's at? That's where we were going with this. The point is how you, as the first non-government sponsor, non-government related funds, you've always given access to all of the autopsy materials, it's quite a time to get in, do that, and that's a whole story in and of itself. I won't take the time. So anyway, I get in there in August of 1972, and there I'm looking at these agreements from Jack and Kennedy about all of this stuff being her personal property, and she's giving it to the government as a gift, and then the provisor that nobody could see this stuff for 75 years with the exception that after five years, a recognized expert in philipotology with a serious historic purpose could apply. So finally, I got in, and there I found that the box containing the brain, the large metal box was no longer listed, and they found inventory of October 66 and missing, and I reported that. Look it up. August 24, Sunday edition, page one, New York Times, Fred Graham, top investigative reporter, President's brain missing, to this day, as we sit here, some 72, that's 28 and 20, is 48 years later, nobody has accounted for the brain. The brain is missing, and you know what, to show you the way in which this was conspiratorially contrived and covered up, there were several people who knew that the brain was missing, talking, top forensic pathologists, and other scientists, other medical people. My old shame where I trained involved in my Russell Fisher was a member of what is referred to as the Ramsey Clark panel that the attorney general Ramsey Clark can be in 1968 to review the word commission reports findings, Russell Fisher, and the forensic neuro pathologist from that office, Richard Lindenberg, with whom I studied brain pathology, not one of them, ever had a sense of ethics, of morality, of honesty, of objectivity, of independence, to comment at that time that the brain was missing, they simply put the stamp of approval on the warrant commission, there's no way in the world. And furthermore, let me tell you something, if that were to happen in the Jones or the Smith murder case, in your jurisdiction where you are, where I am, and the brain was key to the defense's contention that there was a second shooter, and so on, and had to be proved by examining the brain. And the brain is no longer missing the prosecution, somehow along the way, whether it's deliberately and emotionally, that's called spoliation of evidence. That case is out the window, the judge throws it out. You cannot continue with that case, gentlemen, you don't have the brain, the defendant is not able to conduct his fair defense. So there you have it, on the single bullet theory, on the missing brain, and on the sole assessment theory. So I'm sorry. I know. I definitely think, well, frankly, my belief is that the CIA killed JFK. I think that it got it because of the Bay of Pigs, probably, but there could be more and others. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's the case. And I think that's the case. Now, if it's a coup to tie, you believe because I've heard a lot of people express that LBJ may have been involved, or at least in the know or was told later about that, because he did kind of seamlessly go in and do all the things that JFK was going to do anyways. I mean, let's see, three years or two years into his term, the Civil Rights Act got passed and blah, blah, blah, right? I mean, a lot of stuff still happened. We continued to escalate in Vietnam, and a lot of stuff happened there. You think he was involved at all? I personally do not. Some of my fellow Warren Commission critic researchers believe that he was. I personally do not believe that LBJ was involved. However, I do believe that LBJ found out damn quick when it had gone on, and he never really believed it. And two good old boy senators who knew something about guns who were on the Warren Commission, Senator Richard Russell from Georgia, and Russell from Georgia, and the barks from Louisiana. They never really bought it. They just signed on, and that's the way they're going to cover up. The king is dead, long live the king. You guys would know more about this, and I don't you think that within minutes we'll give them an hour following the assassination that by wire and direct phone and through the ambassadors in Beijing, in Moscow, and Havana, that the inquiry was made damn soon to all of the top people there, that you guys have anything to do with the assassination of our president. Tell us because our finger is on that nuclear button, and there's not going to be any Beijing or Moscow or Havana in a matter of minutes if you were. They found out in a matter of minutes within the hour that it wasn't the Russians, it wasn't the Cubans, it wasn't the Chinese. It was us. We have met the enemy, and he is us, and that began to cover up. We're going to have a revolution in America, we're going to bring them back. It's all over. What are you going to do? And they move on. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Look, I agree with all of that. I'll leave it so folks like you who are smarter than me to determine whether or not there was another shooter on the grass. You know, I love it. I love the theory and I like conspiracies, so I'm all in for it, and I'll let that live on. One of the ones that I actually do know a little bit about though, speaking of the King is dead, is Martin Luther King, Jr., the death of Martin Luther King, Jr., and whether or not that was actually James Earl Ray, my father had actually interviewed him in prison for about 16 hours in the '80s, and James Earl Ray said that he definitely did not do this, that he was set up by the government, and that this was somebody else. After this recording, some of them came out a little bit later, and then they did a retry trial on Fox. I don't know if you were part of that, with the family of the King family and everything else. Oh, Dr. William Pepper. Yes. Dr. William Pepper. Yep. Yep. And they had determined that James Earl Ray probably did not do this. Having worked on the case, what is your theory on this? I believe that James Earl Ray did not kill Dr. Martin Luther King. James Earl Ray was a, you know, two, but he never did anything of any significant of the human beings he had, he spent most of his, a lot of more of adult life in prison on the cockam Many offenses. One time he escaped from the prison, and the car broke down. Another time the car ran out of gas. Now he has escaped successfully. He's living in Mexico. He's out for more than a year, and one day he decides he can't live a day longer unless Martin Luther King is eliminated. He just can't. He knows if he goes to Memphis where Dr. King is trying to settle a refugee's worker strike, and if he gets a room in a boarding house, across the way, and he opens up the transit window at the end of the hall in the communal bathroom there, and it looks out that he will be facing the balcony of the Lorraine Motel where King was staying. So he shoots King, and as he's leaving, he says, you know what? This isn't fair. Who's ever going to think for one moment that I, James Earl Ray, killed Dr. King? The whole scenario is ridiculous. He leaves the rifle with his finger prints, plus the package the rifle came in with his name and a dress on it. I'll go to the river Don Sur. It doesn't fit into his mustache. He makes his way to Canada. He's got papers of white nails about his age that would make 007 green with envy. He goes to Canada, and he travels to England back and forth to Spain, back and forth before he's finally apprehended. That is the Martin Luther King, James Earl Ray Center. Yeah, it's absolute nonsense to believe any of that, to be honest, and it's, any time things go that well in an investigation, it's almost like in a military operation. If you feel no resistance, it's probably an ambush. You're probably being trapped. You know what I mean? And if an investigation is super easy, you should really pay close attention to whether or not you're actually getting the facts, because it seems like people were ready to buy this. This dude from the, I guess not really the South, but this dude that had some connection erases nonsense back in the day, has had a criminal background. That makes sense. It's an easily acceptable narrative that this guy went crazy and killed him okay. I mean, if you don't look any further into that, then that makes sense, right? Right. And for, with my father on this one, because I still have the letters and the tapes, after about the eighth trip to the prison in Tennessee, eventually FBI came to his house and said stop asking questions. And that was it. But you know, he had saved everything. What James Roway was saying is that he could not get anyone to listen to his story. They would not let anybody, you know, talk to him or get out to the press or whatever. And then the King family was actually the one that had to step in and say, all right, we'll hear this. Let's go live on TV. Let me tell you something which you may not be aware of. There's a book out by a gentleman named John Currington, C-U-R-I-N-G-T-R. He was, for many years, decades, the right-hand man, one of the richest men in the world, H.L. Hunt. He, Currington, has written a book. He's now a 92, 93-year-old gentleman, still living in Texas, working on his ranch. We've become good friends. Currington took with him a release to Percy Foreman, who was James Roway's attorney then. And he said, Mr. Foreman, this is in his book, he said, Mr. Foreman, I have here. One hundred and eighty reasons why Mr. Hunt does not believe that James Roway should go to trial. He opened up the release and there were one hundred and eighty, one thousand dollar bills, which Currington delivered to Percy Foreman, the most eminent criminal defense attorney in America, with his golden opportunity of defending James Roway. And guess what, Percy Foreman, please James Roway guilty, and there's never a trial. And none of this that we've been talking about in so much more ever received the light of day. Really? I mean, think about these two scenarios. You have one, the JFK assassination, where the commission that's hired to look into it clearly did not do a very good job, in my opinion. Right. Some of the outside consultants did a good job, but that information, like yours, Dr. Wake got suppressed. So everything just lined up, though, Oswald is seen here by this person. Then he's here, and you can see this, and then all the stuff happens, like, "Oh, yeah, it's clearly him. He's trying to escape." And then he gets shot on live television, so he never gets to ever follow up on the comments he made just moments earlier, which is, "I'm a Patsy." We never got to hear what that means. You said that. He was so impassioned as to kill the president, but not to take any credit for all. Right, I know. But the idea of counter-terrorism, typically speaking, it doesn't matter how disciplined an organization is. You can know within the first half hour who did it, because you just listen to phone calls and things like that. Or they'll just directly take credit. Now in the other case, with Ruby, or I'm sorry, with James Earl Ray, rather, he just leaves his gun and fingerprints, a box with his name on it, and then somebody saw him fleeing the scene. Do you know how accurate eyewitness testimony is? About 30%. About 30%. 30% of the time it's accurate. You referred to Jack Ruby, by the way, just to wrap up on that case, to where did Jack Ruby come from? He was mafia at the age of 17 in Chicago. He's down there in Dallas. He's a restaurateur. He's a bar owner. He's a pimp. He's a gun smuggling to Cuba. He's a police informant. He's a government informant. I mean, he's living the dream down there. He just happens to come in to the public, Texas, Dallas, public safety building, at that very moment that Oswald is being left out. Okay. It just happened like that. Yeah. I mean, it's... In that one, I've got a different theory. If there's one shot, if you're a shooter like that, usually you don't fire one shot and put your gun down. Either try to escape or you'll kill yourself. I mean, we've seen so many of these mass shooter or public shooting events almost always it ends in one of those two ways. The person kills themselves or they get taken out by somebody or something like that. I can't... With these... I mean, assassination is obviously different, but going into a building or looking at a building and firing one round and then trying to escape or walking into a room crowded with federal agents, shooting a guy once and then just kind of standing there and letting yourself get tackled. Jack Ruby is a big man. If he wanted to put up a big struggle on fire more rounds, he absolutely would have been able to do that. There's no question about it. One part about it to me with Jack Ruby is I think they found a guy who actually wanted to be famous and take the credit for it where, to me, Jack Ruby with killing Oswald, that's the guy you want where it's like, "Yeah, I did this," and in prison, at least the rumor was he enjoyed the notoriety and yeah. I've been to me with Justice Earl Warren and two other members of the Commission who went down there interviewing him. He begged them to take him back to Washington so he could talk with them and they refused. Yeah. I think that did happen with MLK then. I mean, James or Ray said a couple of times that he may have been partially responsible but unwittingly. That's what he said. What does that mean? Obviously, it implies a conspiracy. Yeah. Well, I don't know exactly. Obviously, well, I shouldn't say obviously, perhaps he had to have some knowledge of what was coming down. So, how this was to be paid off, I don't know, somebody arranged for him to have that Mustang to get him to Canada, get him papers and so on. Where did that come from? This two-bit, nothing guy, where did he get the money? If somebody came to me right now and said, "Here's a million, here's $10 billion, I want you to go and I want you to get all of these credentials and I want you to be able to get passports with somebody who looks like you and says, "I don't know where to go, I don't know where to begin, I don't know how to start, I got to turn down to $10 million." But this guy, he knew, he knew of this spending all of his life, much of his life in prison and then a year in Mexico, he had it all figured out. Yeah. It's, you know, and three days later he recanted his confession and all that other stuff. They also found a pair of binoculars at the scene with his fingerprints on it. I mean, it was all, it seemed like a Scooby-Doo murder mystery where it was just like, "Well, we have all the information." Yeah. In prison in the '60s or '70s, you're a white dude that just killed MLK. You probably don't want to hide that. Yeah. Right? And I'm talking about this political assassination, gentlemen, it's okay with you. I like to get your views on what you think about RFK. Tell me what your things are in RFK. With Surin, Surin, I think, look, if you believe the premise that people in the agency were trying to shape America the way they saw fit, and there was some maybe hypersensitivity to any kind of, I guess, socialist principles inside of America, whereas the average American doesn't understand the difference between social welfare and socialism, obviously, right? But anyways, if you believe that premise with the JFK assassination or even with MLK, then, I mean, Bobby's the next guy, right? It's those three guys that were pushing those agendas. Yeah. So let me ask you, let me ask you this to set the stage. Remember, Kennedy has just won the California primary, which is tantamount to being the Democratic nominee for president. So he can't get out of that big ballroom at the Ambassador Hotel in LA. It'll take hours to get him out of there, then they say, "Well, we're going to go out the back way." So as he's walking back out through the kitchen, there's Surin, and Surin shoots. Tell me, gentlemen, what is your recollection? What was the distance of Surin's gun from the time? At the moment, that he shot JFK. I don't know, maybe eight feet away. What do you think? Do you know? Do you know the answer? I've done this with tens of thousands of people. Go and read the autopsy report, if you have any doubt about what I'm going to tell you right now. Okay. The shot that killed JFK, the fatal wound that hit him behind and above the right ear with a slightly forward trajectory was fired one to one and a half inches behind the Senator's ear, one to one and a half inches. Dr. Tom Naguchi, chief medical examiner coroner, he made a good friend of mine. Now he's 93, Tom Lillian LA, he was in charge. I was one of three civilian consultants. He had four or five members of his own staff, four certified presidential colleges. He had three professors in the USC and in my suggestion, when Tom called me in the middle of the night because he was concerned about their spirit in the body of the Senator of LA like they had done with Kennedy in Dallas, I suggested to him, you be proactive, Tom. You invite them to send in three military forensic colleges to be observers at your autopsy, which he did, unanimous, unequivocal, setting forth. Look at the autopsy report corroborated then by ballistics experts, shooting their own shots with targets, as you know, it is done. The shot was fired one to one and a half inches behind Robert Kennedy's ear. You bet your life, sir, hand was a shooter, and you bet your life. There was a second shooter, there's no way in the world that Oswald ever had the muzzle of his gun, one and a one and a half inches away from Bobby Kennedy's head, and were they slightly forward? So you guys are intelligent and you're smart and you're experienced, and you give me the answer that I've heard from tens of thousands of people. I love to do this with every audience that I have. What was the distance from which Kennedy's, the fatal shot was fired by a sir hand, eight feet, ten feet, six feet, four feet, two feet. Well, here's the interesting part to me. So I shot a movie in the Ambassador Hotel. Right before it got turned down in LA, I mean, like torn down in LA in Los Angeles. So I got to go into the kitchen and all that stuff to see where it was and everything else. And for me, looking at it, if there was that many people in there, that's actually what I would have said, where the only way to get off a clean shot with that many people around him would to be, I mean, almost directly there. So what you're saying makes complete sense because when you walk through it, I don't know if you've been through the Ambassador Hotel. I went there with Dr. Nagoshi. Yeah. So when you're in there and you see how small it is versus how many people you saw on television when he was given that speech, I don't know how you would have gotten out a clean shot where only RFK gets killed unless you were point blank range, point blank range, exactly like you said. And that makes total sense. Even without the entry exit wound or the damage assessment or even finding the round, you could tell if somebody was shot that close just by putting liquid paraffin on their head and seeing if it turned to color right because gunpowder residue is going to be very prevalent right there. That's right. That's right. I mean, that's a pretty easy thing to be able to tell. Oh, yes. This is a conclusion. I'm telling you to sign off by a dozen different forensic pathologists and incredibly. Yeah. You look, it was probably it was probably jagra Hoover Avenue, but it never it never came out. It tries. People say, how is that possible? I'll tell you how it's possible. The prosecution never asked Dr. Nagoshi undirect testimony and the attorney who was an experienced Grant Cooper criminal defense attorney, not some snot knows kid fresh out of law school. He never never on cross examination asked Dr. Nagoshi about the distance from which the shot was by never. So that's how things happen. Yeah. And that when I agree with you and again, I remember thinking to myself with this many people in here, you're going to have to be real close or else you would hit somebody else and nobody else was shot. So yeah, it's I'm with you on this one. I 100% agree. I want to move on to the John Benet Ramsey one because this has been a mystery for a long time with JBR. I watched the latest documentary that was out on ABC that happened that everybody got sued for because they speculated that they accused birth a brother. Correct. Yes. Do you in your knowledge? I'm not going to ask if you believe it. I don't want you hit with a lawsuit as well. Obviously. Well, I'll tell you what I believe because this in my book, Who Killed John Benet Ramsey written by by me who killed John Benet Ramsey. This was not a murder. This was well, technically would be manslaughter, whatever, but it wasn't designed to be a murder. It was an accidental death that occurred during sexual play by the father. There was no intruder. No intruder. When you see me next and I have here down to my waistline like some of the NFL football players do, that's when the intruder will be found. This is a game. Patsy Ramsey, the mother, was out of the sex business stage for ovarian cancer. She followed surgery, radiation chemotherapy. The little girl was the surrogate and the father, penile penetration, not penile penetration. I mean, not penile penetration, finger penetration, digital penetration. It's all there in the autopsy, chronic inflammation, focal erosion, the vaginal valve, seven o'clock position, birefringent material. The most common source of which anything household is top impider. Put it all together. And then you have this cockermany note, we represent a small foreign faction. Yeah, it was a weirdest note of all time. 118,000 dollars. You like that number? Exactly. The bonus that John Ramsey received the year before. Yeah, for Christmas. Not 100, not 200, 118,000 dollars. And then, and by the way, he forgot to bring pen and paper, but no problem, in the middle of the night he finds pen and paper, he starts to write it, he writes, he doesn't like the beginning, but travels the paper, throws the dot, and then starts to write again. You like that? And then he leaves the house. And by the way, he knew about the room in the basement, the homicide detector is getting down six o'clock in the morning, never even knew that room existed. Yeah. Looking for the six year old girl, never even knew that room was there, a maid who worked there for six months, never knew about that room, but this outside intruder, who was able to get in without awakening anybody, he knew about that room where he took the little girl and he had his way, and then he pressed. Well, usually, usually people who do home invasion spend a lot of time down at the city clerks office looking up the blueprints of all the houses in the area, right? Or is that not how it works? Like we expect these games or rail, these low-level knucklehead criminals, to like criminal masterminds all of a sudden, it's easier to believe they're a criminal mastermind than it is to believe that the government was somehow involved. Speaking of, well, real quick, how did the murder then occur with John Benet Ramsey? Wasn't she hit with a blunt object in the back of the head? So the father, she was hit, but that did not kill her. She had, she had seven ccs of blood, you know, that's one teaspoon and a half, seven ccs. If somebody comes up right now, even with your hat on, sir, or my bald head and hits us with an object, you're going to have a lot more bleeding. You got a sub-dural damage, you don't die right away. You don't die immediately. My sons and neurosurgeon operating on these people, hours after the bleeding has occurred. That bleeding was already caused when she was dead or dying. There was no actual active bleeding. That was just oozing from a little bit of gravitational flow from some small vessels. She was already dead, if she had, she had her collar up, the rope was around the neck. Make sure that there are no marks on the neck. The collar, the rope came down, the sleeve was pulled on. Make sure that it never touches the skin, so there would be no indication of this. And then when you tie something around someone's neck, then you can inadvertently get a vagal reflex. You can see this in her, the 10th of 12 cranial nerves coming out from the brain. One on the right, one on the left sends fibers into the chest, controls the heart, controls the lungs when you apply pressure to the neck, that vagal reflex can lead to radicardia showing that the heart, and then you get cardia respiratory arrest. That is what led to the death of a job in a Ramsey. As I say, a horrible death, but by no means an intended murder. I don't say this anyway, to get John Ramsey off the hook, but to point out exactly what happened. So that's John, but a Ramsey. Yes, and with that, because the mother is now deceased. He's still alive, and then the brothers filed a million lawsuits against this. If you're the brother, does he know what happened? And if so, why isn't he coming forward and saying anything? I don't think he knows what happened, in fact, when he awakened and he came down, and John Ramsey was on the phone with a relative in California, and you hear him saying to Burke, just go back to your room. John ran that Burke, Burke, Burke, nine-year-old, three years older, he came down, he was trying to find out what happened. No, I don't think that Burke had anything to do with it. I do not believe so. I pass you, obviously, came to learn about it, and what was she going to do? She already lost her daughter. She's going to lose her husband. She's dying of cancer. She got a son. So where are you going to go along with it? And that's what I believe happened, and it's set forth in my book, Who Killed John Billy Ramsey? Yeah, it makes sense. And now let's move on to the one behind Anthony's shoulder here, if you don't mind, the OJ Simpson one. Now, OJ is out, and he's still looking for the real killers, unless you think OJ did this one. I believe that OJ was present, along with a second person whom I believe two have been his son, Jason. I think there's no way in the world that OJ Simpson could have inflicted 17 wounds on one person, 17, on the other, his wife, and Ron Goldman, who was delivering glasses to her from the restaurant. And with all the bleeding, when you sever karate, and jugular veins, blood arteries, bridal veins in the neck, blood spurts for feet, wears all the blood, it went into OJ's house. The sewers, the toilets, and the bathtub, the shower, the sinks, no blood found. One drop of blood on a sock was proved to be planted, and anti-coagulant material, like in a tube from a doctor's office, not blood from your vein or mine. Where's all the blood? Where's the clothing? Where's the instrument? How is that all accomplished? I do believe, and my colleagues, I can speak for them on this point, we've discussed this many times. Dr. Henry Lee, Dr. Michael Bond, that there was a second person. I believe, speaking for myself, that it was Jason, who was out of control, his stepmother had disappointed him. She didn't go to his restaurant for the celebration that night, and an ugly argument ensued. I don't know the details of that. Ron Goldman, quite fortuitously, and regrettably for him, happened to be there, and that is what ensued. That's the O.J. sense of care. Yeah, because in the one doc that I saw on, I think was the ID channel, they had brought up the possibility that it was the sun, along with O.J. during that. Now, the cops disputed that. Now you're saying the blood was planted on the... It was one drop. It was one drop. One drop. And shown by the forensic toxicologist that the defense hired to have contained an anti-coagulant substance, which is not in our bloods. It is in a tube when blood is collected in the laboratory doctor's office. So you do believe that the cops did plant blood on O.J.'s clothing? Well, somebody planted that one drop of blood. That is right. That is what I believe. And inside the Bronco as well? I was there blood found in the Bronco? I don't recall that. Oh, gosh, on the... what's the glove compartments and then the center console? Well, O.J. O.J. didn't have a small laceration. Did he have something? He did. Yes. Correct. Yes. That's where the blood came from. Remember, he left in a couple of hours. Yep. He flew to Chicago if there's no appointment. So that's the O.J. Simpson case. Let me tell you where my friend, a colleague, Dr. Henry Lee, says 90% white people think O.J. built it. 90% black people. Yeah. O.J. innocent. 90% Chinese people. Don't give a shit. Yeah. I always remember that from my friend Henry Lee. That's a good one, I like that. That's hilarious. What is the craziest case that you've personally ever worked on in your entire... Go ahead. There's another major one. So you were involved in concussion and helping get that made. You know... Yes. Oh, yes. Yeah. The Will Smith movie. Product Somatic and Sephiel Offa beat. Yep. I'm portrayed in a movie by Albert Brooke when I was cornered by Allegheny County. Um, this, um, entity was identified by one of my staff friends, a biologist, Dr. Ben Domalo, who deserves a credit. And then, of course, I encouraged him and, um, and had to move on and do all the special work and, and, uh, encourage these expenses at the office. We showed that this was something related to the death. It caused the death of Mike Webster, who was the all pro center for the Pittsburgh Steelers for many years, um, chronic traumatic and stuff, a lot of the very proud of that. Um, and emanating from the Allegheny County Corners Office when I was a corner in the early 2000s, um, my second 10 year go around in that office. Uh, it's a very good movie. Will Smith does an excellent job. Uh, they screwed him out of an Academy word nomination, uh, there's no question about it. They shouldn't men. I can't, I can't to know him and his mother was originally the Pittsburgh and Google about a row, who plays his wife, what a lovely, lovely, a young woman. Um, see that movie concussion folks, if you haven't seen it, it's really, really wonderful movie. Yeah. Cause a lot of veterans deal with, um, uh, concussions and, um, PTSD and all that stuff, obviously Dan's a veteran. Um, you mentioned you were in the Air Force earlier, uh, actual Air Force venture. Yeah. It was that what made you interested in studying concussions or, uh, why get involved in that at that time? No, no, no. I, I had already met up my mind here with people going to forensic biology. So I, uh, did two years in the Air Force. I had done two years of residency in the military, uh, you, you have VA hospital here in Pittsburgh first, and then I did my forensic biology training in Baltimore. I finished my law school at university in Maryland, having done two years before the Air Force at the university of Pittsburgh. So no, no, no, the concussion pain came about quite fortuitously. I got a call from the Webster family. It really wasn't the coroner's case, but they asked if we would do the autopsy. I said, so we did it. And, uh, been in a while who trained under me. He became interested in this, even though he had no interest in knowledge. He's from Nigeria about sports, one from the other, but he was fascinated. He, um, studied neuropathology and he went on to develop this and the paper was published and then everything ensued thereafter. Um, I recommend that people, um, see that movie and come to learn about product, traumatic self-ulopathy, you will see too the way things are being handled now differently when someone has a concussion or is, you know, just, uh, knocked out seemingly or maybe knocked out on the ball field, whether it's college or, or, or pro or even high school and, uh, in the pop Warner League, I think they do not have a tackling, uh, before the age of 12, uh, until the after the age of 12, I think so people are aware that now it's a quite different ball game. Yeah. It definitely is. And, uh, you know, I've got two kids and it's the same thing. It's pretty much flag football all the way up until 12 and then you have pads and helmet where you can, you know, properly learn to form tackle and all of that stuff. What's the craziest case you've ever worked on? Well, that's hard to say, uh, so many, so many cases, really. So many. I know. You know, I was always just curious, I mean, you know, look, you're obviously an expert and we were very fortunate to get to talk to you some, with, with somebody of your stature on this show. We're usually a lowbrow show here, um, totally kidding. Um, but, uh, with you, like, I, I always wondered if there was one case that just stuck with you over the years where you're just like, man, I, I, I didn't get this one right or they didn't get it right or somebody's not telling the truth here. It might not necessarily be the most famous case in the world, but, but one of those that just bothers you in the middle of the night. Well, the JFK case is the number one for the movies that we've talked about. I'll give you one case of Rebecca Zajal, Z-A-H-A-U is a beautiful 33 year old Asian woman living with her multi-millionaire boyfriend and his speckled mansion there in San Diego. She's found hanging over a four foot parapet from the balcony of the master bedroom at this mansion. Her hands are tied behind her back tightly. Her calves are tied tightly, um, um, so much so that there's bruising of the musculature of the calves. Um, the rope around the neck, uh, the collar pulled up, the shirt tied around it, stuffed into her neck, and she is bare-ass naked, not a stitched up clothing. And they signed it out as a suicide. They refused to budge. The medical examiner, the sheriff, the cops, they refused to budge just before the sexual limitations ran out, the family, uh, got an attorney, he fired, he filed a civil wrongful death action, um, claiming that the death was caused by the, the, the brother of the owner of the master and the boyfriend who was at the hospital with his, uh, young son who was suffered to have injury at the house. And, um, um, I, I testified for the plaintiff in that case just as if it would be for the defense and they, uh, for the, in a murder case, um, and, and so on, uh, in any event. So I testified and the jury came in after a few hours with a verdict of $5.2 million. Wow. That case gave me great, great pleasure. And one of the case passed before we wrap it up, you guys got to go. I'm sure. And I do a Cox Powell case, hook it up in Washington state in Tacoma, um, a father whose wife had gone missing years before the body never found, never accounted for, uh, kids and I'll take it away from him living with their maternal grandparents and the government stupidly allows the kids to, uh, visit their father. Uh, one Sunday morning, uh, the woman takes the kids there, uh, the father opens the door, grabs the kids from her, slams the door in her face and says to the kids, I have a great surprise for you. He proceeds with a hatchet to hatch at them on their heads, their faces and their necks. And he pours gasoline over them and himself sets them all on fire. They all burn to death. The house explodes and so on. So now there's a civil action, um, for damages brought by the maternal grandparents. And I testified for them just earlier this year and the jury came in with a verdict of $114 million for conscious pain and suffering of those two and four year old kids, Cox Powell case. Uh, I'm very proud of that case. So I'm glad to have the opportunity to mention that. Yeah. That case and others are referred to if I may have the liberty of again, mentioning, uh, my, my new autobiography, of course, the life and deaths of Sarawak memoirs of America's most controversial projectologist, people can read about those cases and about other things that we've talked about in the criminal justice system and so on. And as well as my background, some of my experiences, some of my trials and tribulations and travails. It hasn't been easy going always in my life. And so on. It's all there. Uh, to be fascinated. Yeah. It's, it's unbelievable. You're one of the most fascinating, uh, men on the planet and we're grateful that you decided to do the show. We end the show every, uh, day with the drinking bro of the week, which is someone who has inspired you or helped you become the person you are today. Who would you like to give the drinking bro of the week to? Well, I guess to my parents, um, really, uh, they're the ones that especially my father told me from the time I was a baby and I was going to be a doctor. And, uh, so I guess he gets the number one cup. We worked so hard, they were both immigrants and mom and pop grocery store seven days a week. Um, they're number one, my wife and my kids are number two. Um, and, uh, that's really what life is all about, especially at my age, my wife and my kids and my 11 grandchildren without them, nothing means anything. That's amazing. That's amazing. Thank you, uh, so much for being here. Thank you. And for your village experience and for the wonderful opportunity you have afforded me, uh, you've been marvelous. I wish I thank you so much and I hope we'll be together again sometime. Absolutely. And please go buy Dr. Weck's book now. It is on sale Amazon, I'll get it to you in 48 hours, uh, Amazon Prime is the fastest way to do it. Yep. It's free two days shipping. Go check out his book. Uh, thank you, sir. I know you were a busy, busy man, and we appreciate the time today. All right. My pleasure. Thank you, John. Awesome. All the way. I'm Ross Patterson. This is The Drinking Bros. Good night, everyone. [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible]
