(upbeat music) - Good morning, Joe. It's 4759 and Ben and his friend, Gunning. Happy Memorial Day to our American listeners, I suppose. - Sure, we had Victoria Day last week. It's Memorial Day today. That's why the Blue Jays played this afternoon. Right back on the horse, Brad. Good morning to you. - Yeah, good morning to you. - Good morning to John Schneider. I'm about to do a redox of when he came off and tipped his hat to Garrett Crochet. Like, I'm sorry, which is it? It was frustrating or all the good things in the world happen. I didn't even like, I wasn't ready to do this. I was like, came in here, had a nice little chit chat with you before the show. I felt like I did a good job of not bombarding you. As a party came in, we all like, oh, weekend, weekend. - All the way, we almost ran into each other at the door, like I was going out to get some water and then you were coming in at the same moment. - We almost just like went, we almost kissed. - We did almost kissed. - It was really close. - God, do you want to talk about good morning? That would have been quite the way to start. I wasn't, I'd made my piece with losing three or four against the Tigers. I'd made my piece with getting walked off to finish the series. And then I hear everybody handing out orange slices and giving each other paths on the back for what a good job they did in that game. Infuriating, God infuriating. - Facebook's also weird. It's like, well, you know, it would have been really easy to just fold up shop. Like it's not like other sports. Like the clock doesn't just run out. It's not like you can just forego, you're at bat. Like you, so what, like, does that happen often? Where guys like step to the plate and they're like, yeah, you don't like just throw three right down the middle. I'm not even going to swing. This game is over. - They put the take sign up on the scoreboard. That's how obvious it is like take. - Yeah, and, you know, hearing that from John Schneider did make me think of this Jeff Pass and tweet from yesterday. The 2024 Toronto Blue Jays encapsulated in one wretched line score in the post of the screenshot of the 14-11 loss in Detroit by the Blue Jays in Trump, a season high six games under 500. I was like, not really. - I was like, well, team, he's been watching. - Yeah, not really. Like that's a new version. In fact, you know, I was doing some digging on the bullpen stats this season. Blue Jays have had a very bad bullpen as yet. You might be aware of. - I've heard. - And it's a weird one though. So the bullpen ERA is 4-7. That's the forced worst in all of baseball. They give them nine runs yesterday. The bullpen give up nine runs yesterday. So that's, okay. - At least they can go to 11. - I don't know. - Yeah, fourth worst ERA amongst a bullpen in Major League Baseball 4-7. But yesterday is lost by the bullpen. Just their six of the season dropping them out of the lead at five. So five is the fewest losses any team has had out of their bullpen. - Okay. - And the Blue Jays were tied. And yesterday it dropped them to second. Well, actually it's further than second because there's a couple of teams tied at five. But yeah, the second fewest bullpen losses this season. You know why? - Why? - Because they don't have a lead to blow quite often. So yeah, that was not the MO for the Blue Jays. It's quite Jeff Passon saying that that encapsulated it. So instead of inching closer to 500, facing some of the worst teams in baseball, they did take two or three from the White Sox. And they started another series against the White Sox in Chicago today. - It's like a guy who they lit up. - Yeah, they've dropped further down the standings. Salvaging the season feels less and less likely. It is factually May. So here's where I'm at with the Blue Jays in this 13 game stretch, which continues. And again, there's six games left. Three against the White Sox, three against the Pirates. And hey, you sweep both those series, you're at 500. But again, we've seen this team now for almost two full months. And that feels unlikely. So this is, we viewed this as the soft spot in the Blue Jays schedule, right? We're like, this is, look at these teams. Oh, finally, a respite from the drudgery of facing some of these good American League East teams. Finally, some lesser thans, some punching bags, some tomato cans. - You know what, you ever heard that expression? You ever played poker? I know we've played poker together. - Yeah, we have, yeah. - But you ever heard the expression of like, okay, if you sit down at a poker table and within 15 minutes, you can't recognize who the fish is. - Yeah, it's you. - You're probably, yeah. - It's you. - Got a hook in your mouth, yeah. - The Blue Jays are the soft spot in these other teams schedule. (laughing) - Tikers, watch the team at the fourth worst bullpen ERA in Major League Baseball score in the third fewest runs in baseball and said, oh, finally, we get a team we can beat up on. They play now in the hardest division in baseball, by the way, record-wise, the central. So yeah, no, the Blue Jays are the fish. - This is just really mean because now all I can picture is, and sorry for John Schneider, but he's the guy who is the avatar for this in my head of him sitting there with a big mug of beer, 'cause we know he loves one, playing poker, and he's got the sunglasses on, he's very locked in, but his cards are backwards. They're facing the whole table. And he's like, I got these guys right where I want them. They don't have a clue. They don't have a clue. That is a perfect analogy. This is what they are, and guess what? Much like if we want to continue the poker analogy a little bit, sometimes a fish will like, you know, luck into pocket aces or something, and it's like, even he can't screw that up. Even the Blue Jays will find their wins here and there, but yeah, man, I think you nailed it. They are the fish. - They are the fish. So yeah, you can say it's definitely over now, and I think a lot of people will be doing that. Well, this is it, yesterday's loss, unacceptable. That's also my favorite. It's like, what do you mean, unacceptable? Like, okay, they're gonna play again today. Should they not? Should they just like forfeit the rest of the games? Or else it isn't? No, they have to play. And yes, if you could enact some sell-off trade now of the pending free agents, and you can extract a king's ransom for Danny Jansen, and you say kukuchi, and Jimmy Garcia would be a bad time to sell, and Jimmy Garcia, it feels like, and gives up like the only hits and only runs. It seemed like a key moment in the season to do that, and not entirely his fault gives up a bloop to left field, whatever. Then you know what? That's gonna happen over the course of a season. The Jimmy Garcia, you've asked to be perfect all season long? He's not gonna be perfect. So it would behoove you to score more runs than the two other losses you had in the series that were winnable games, as opposed to the one where the Tigers put up 13 anyways. But yeah, no, if there wasn't a thing we're like today, they could, like, I don't know, Ross Atkins. I mean, I guess this is the thing you could do to wave the white flag on the season or say enough is enough is just say, hey, Justin Turner, you're aged, and clearly we bought you at the very, like not the beginning of your decline, because the second half of the season in Boston looked a lot like what we've seen here. And it's amazing how the Justin Turner narrative has changed from like that first week of the season, you're like, oh, finally a professional hitter in here. But he looks like the guy that has one of the slowest bats in Major League Baseball, which now we can quantify. And you can say, hey, George Springer, we know you got two more years at over $24 million plus remaining on your deal, but yeah, you're the fourth out fielder now. Up come all the triple A guys. That will happen. It's probably not gonna happen until June. But yeah, at this point, I think everybody knows what we're watching here. It's a team that's a million miles away from being a contender, and maybe not a million miles away from being a playoff team. But there are some other good teams in the American League. Yeah, it only took 84 wins for the Diamondbacks to get into the playoffs last year in the National League. That's like the lowest that it's ever been. Z89 wins for the Blue Jays to get into the playoffs and has been Nicholson Smith lately. That piece was rightly points out like what kind of a run this team would have to go on to get to that point. What we've seen to this point in the season, it seems very unlikely. Yeah, they just have to play the equivalent of, I think it was 97 win baseball from this point out to get to like the upper echelon of those numbers that you were talking about. That's all, just be a hundred win ball club. Squint, you can see it with this group. Not gonna happen. You know, I mean, the one guy we keep going to with these like the changes that people are clamoring for is as a Relvis Martinez and like, that's gonna happen. It's going to come. And not that I would have expected it today regardless, or it goes over with five Ks on the weekend. So maybe not the time you're gonna call them up. And that's not what this is about, but they're going to have to pick a time to wave the white flag and whether that is. And I think to your point, it's gonna come in two stages. It's gonna come with calling up the prospects. And then it will come with bye-bye Kakuchi, then it will come with bye-bye Garcia, then it will come with all of that. But the other part of it that I was thinking about is that, and this is why the Garcia struggle is so pertinent for this team is because if there was a guy that you could in theory, like jump the market on and have it be an elite receiver having the best season in baseball, that is the one guy that you could, in theory, dangle out there, say, hey, you wanna do your business, do it now, there's not gonna be an arm better than this. And there are gonna be teams that are gonna get in the mix for this later on that aren't in it now. So come do your business. And one game doesn't mean you can't have those conversations, but you just can't have many of those. You're gonna hold them up as the one A reliever in baseball. And the other thing is, is that with these guys, you know, like Kakuchi, love him. He is an exceptional arm. Some playoff team be happy to have him. He is not the kind of one A, a side young guy that makes a team, you know, and again, not a knock to Kakuchi, he's not even Luis Rice, who goes wins batting titles every year where a team says, I have to get that now, that's gonna fix my problems. So there just isn't the world where you could say, let's jump the market. 'Cause we always have this conversation both ways. If you're the buyer, do you wanna jump? If you're the seller, do you wanna jump? They're just, it's not there yet. - Yeah. The other part of this is like, oh, that hurt, right? Because, you know, there was, there was a moment and you could hear it in Dan Shulman's voice when Dalton Varshow hits the home run to put the Blue Jays in front after trailing by five runs in the game. You're like, oh, turning point, this is it. - Yeah. - It's happening. This Satsack season with this collection of hitters that haven't done much of anything at all, they finally figured it out. This is the springboard to the rest of the season, then of course, what happens happens. And I think that the conversation around Jimmy Garcia is a different one around Jordan Romano, who now, it must be said with his second blown same in the season, is having a rough goal. - Okay. - There's no two ways about it now. Like this is a tough start with the ERA approaching seven, which is tough for relievers. It's not the best way. - Not a fair stat. - No, it's not because one outing can ruin it for you. - Hey, can I ask you a question? Yeah, I know you were launching into the thought, but we'll get there. Can baseball nerds, maybe this exists already, and you, can there be like an ERA for relievers? Like we have all this like, you know, like, plus, like war plus, or like a slight, can we not quantify it to an isolated ERA that like makes sense for a reliever in some way, shape, or form? And it's like, I know we just have other stats. Like when I look at a reliever, I just look at their whip. Like if I want a quick, I want a quick, very like, snapshot picture of what this guy's doing, who I've not been paying attention to, I just go to the whip. But it does seem unfair to relievers that, in a sport that is like so stat-laid. And then I know we, we take that one with massive grains of salt at times, but it just, it's such an unfair stat. They almost should not be allowed, you should not be allowed to have an ERA if you're a reliever. Like it is just so unjust, quite honestly. - Yeah, it's, I think what we had, you hit on it. Like the way you, well, there's other, you just look at the other stats, right? It's not about ERA with relievers. I mean, this will do it for you. - How's this? - Hit me. - Opponents, O.P.S. 870, I guess. - I love that. - It's a good one. - It's a good one. - Well, I mean, I want it clear. I do not love that. The very much, do not like that. I have not hurt cousins, I do not like that. But thank you, that's a good stat. - Yeah, it's not hard to like find the thing that you're looking forward to tell you that Jordan Romano's having a bad season. There's lots of them, okay? - Yes, I agree. - Opponents are hitting 288 against him with an on base of 351 and a slug of 519. Again, an O.P.S. of 870. That'll do it, like that would, obviously. - So, question I got an answer. - Outside of Danny Jansen, the opposition facing Jordan Romano this season would be the Blue Jays second best hitter. Like, if they, that would be, oh my God. If you could get whoever the average batter is against Jordan Romano, throw him in the middle of this Blue Jays lineup, now you got a team. Anyways, it's like Stu gots magic at bat, but you get to pick one of your own terrible relievers late in the game. It's like an outcomes coach pitch. - Yeah, against your own guys. - Yeah, you can't complain, even though Jordan Romano is at a rough start to the season. No question, but only a second blown save of the season. - And Jimmy Garcia gives up two runs, and he never gives up runs. - Nope. - He doesn't give up contact. He just throws 100, and he throws it by, guys. You cannot complain, obviously. Any even music and coochie gets roughed up a little bit, so you cannot complain at all about the pitching, because it's been asked to be near perfect all season long. And again, like the being six games under 500, just in a vacuum for this team, that's a flattering to what this team has put forth. - Man, look at the, like I know we're talking about the weekend, look at what was it, the Saturday game? It's like Barrios has, makes three mistakes in the first inning of the game, and that's it. He's done. Like, there's nothing he could do to overcome having given up, or having committed the grievous sin of allowing three runs in a major league baseball game. Like, this is the point-- - It's only two. - It's only two. - Sorry, it was only two, right? What am I doing? I'm giving the Tigers extra credit. This goes back, and Gossman has been the guy who's been, I don't even think he's been intentionally doing this, like I don't think this is like nefarious Kevin Gossman. But he's the one who's been laying the breadcrumbs all along for this. He had the quotes to Longley last week. He was the guy last year who's made the point of saying that the starters have been asked to pitch high leverage innings. He didn't make a point of saying we've been asked to do it, but he just talked about how taxing it is for every inning you pitch to be a high leverage inning. And it's just eventually gonna come to roost with this team. And it might not even be that those guys fall off a cliff, but you're seeing it come to roost the other way. It's just you're asking those guys to be too perfect. And then, of course, of course, you get all of the bats on a day when your pitching staff just can't do it. - Yeah, I mean, again, that's the outlier like whatever Jeff Busan tells you passing, whatever Jeff passing, I don't know why I changed the pronunciation of his name. - You dislike that take so much. - I don't know what a P man, yeah. Busan, yeah, I don't think he wants to be called the P man. - I don't think so. - Whatever. - We'll give him a choice next time. - Jeff Busan tells you that's not the prototypical Blue Jays lost this season. But you know what the, okay, so you asked me to give you an encapsulation as a standalone stat as to-- - I just asked him to exist. I didn't want you to create that. - Identify whether Jordan Romano or any relievers having a bad season. He used to opponent's batting injury. You talked about whip, that's a good one too. - Thank you. - You know what the biggest indication is that this Blue Jays team ain't gonna turn it around? - I love where this is going. - Is that Bow and Vlad are doing it now, right? - That's the thing. - So Vlad goes back a ways and he's outperforming Bow and would you like to see some home runs? - Sure, but you're seeing the occasional home run and the occasional double, like it doesn't even have to be a home run, honestly. It just has to be an extra base hit. - Yes. - But yeah, over like since the, let's just take the sample of the beginning of May here. - Yeah, the month that's been scorching. - Yeah, OPS, over a thousand, he's hitting 407, he's hitting like for the season now, his average is over 300, he's hitting 302. That's top 15 in all the major league baseball. But shit, there's still a ways to go. But again, going back to the beginning of the month, over 20 games, he's got an OPS of 748. He's hitting almost 300, 293. Those guys are doing the thing. Now the other guys around them, could they do more? Sure, outside of Danny Jansen, who's done tremendous work, all season long, when he's been in the lineup, he's a catcher and you need his value behind the plate as well, so he just can't factually play every day. Dalton Varshow, I think maybe you could ask a little more of him, but he's doing it. - It's been streaky. - That is the thing people will point to, but guess what? It's like, that's called a baseball player. - Yeah, I agree. The baseline totals that you've got out of our show, totally fine. I think people are gonna point to the, 'cause it has felt like he's either been, oh my God, the Js are winning the Varshow trade or we're all the way back to Moreno referendums. Every two weeks, it's kind of felt that way. - I've got news for people. This is kind of what you should expect at a Dalton Varshow. This is what you're watching right now, as far as OPS Plus is concerned, again, 100 league average. He's at OPS Plus of 114, so 14% above league average. That's a career high. - Yep. - He's never done this. Like this is, he's been close in the season before the Blue Jays acquired him in 22 with the Diamondbacks, he was 108. And he's 114 this season, he's got a 751 OPS. He doesn't have a super high on base, but guess what, he didn't in 22 either. But he hit 27 home runs and played incredible defense in center field in the 150 games. It's what the Blue Jays, maybe they wanted more than that, but they would be in, they'd be kind of nuts to expect any more than that or be disappointed with what they've gotten out of him this season. He's hit nine home runs and on this team, boy, that stands out quite a bit. So he's doing it. - Yep. - Vlad's doing it, Bo's doing it, Danny Janssen's doing it. David Schneider is like going through a drop, but he's still getting on base, okay? Sorry, he's not hitting a home run every other day. - Hey, you're the one who set these standards. You don't get mad at us. - Everybody else is, okay, they're underperforming, but that's kind of who they are. Like you want more out of Isaiah, kind of full F, all of a sudden he's hitting home runs every other day. - Were we all at all prepared for a world where IKF is like sneaky fan favorite guy? - Yeah, I mean, that's damning with faint praise, but the Vlad and the Bo of it all, and the way they are going right now, and still the inability to win baseball games against a very mediocre Detroit Tigers team with a couple of bats, but they're built on the strength of their pitching staff, which is pretty good, I guess. No, that's the biggest indicator. Is that like the two guys, the core guys. Ross Atkins told us, we're going to bank on the core dudes, the motto of the season. Every time you watch a Blue Jays promo on Sportsnet to the core, well the core is kind of doing it, and they still are rotten to the core. - There is no, not to look, guys are going to have hot. It's baseball like Daniel Volga back. Should he continue to get played appearances? We'll have a week where we go, Daniel Volga Buck giving him some good at bats. It is not going to get better than this for the baseline of this roster. Vladimir Greer Jr. could win an MVP in his future, and he might not have a month as good as the one he just had again. You'd like a little more power in there, but hitting 400 of the, the OBP I think is like approaching 450 or something along those lines. The slugging, like you mentioned, insane. Bachete doing exactly what you would expect of him, what they think you're going to squint your eyes, and all of a sudden George Springer is going to turn back into a 29 year old. That is the only place and you would be an insane person to sit there and expect more from it. But that is the only place when you, if you're someone who put this team together where you say, well, we're not getting what we would expect out of our lead off hitter. Well, that was a mistake 'cause he's aged, okay? I wake up every day. My back is sore, my bones are hurting. And guess what? Me and George Springer are the exact same age. Now, he's improbably, I hope, please God for his sake. He's in better, better physical condition than me. But we keep looking and expecting it to get better, or we don't, but they do for some reason, and it's not going to. And this is why I think that this is just a, it's sad to say, but it's like we're in the death march now. There will be moments. There will be fleeting times of, hey, all the fucking back and three and a half back. This team hasn't had the hot streak, and every team does it, right? Like the White Sox already did it. Like they swept the Rays at one point when they were-- I was going to say, when do they get to play the Blue Jays? Yeah, well, the Blue Jays. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, when do the Blue Jays get to play the Blue Jays? Yeah, interest squad game, come on, it's what they need. Yeah, so there will be a hot streak that will suck people back in. And again, the bar to get into the playoffs in baseball these days is not the same. But I will say that this has a different feeling than other disappointing seasons. And the most disappointing season, I can remember for Blue Jays fans, was 2013, right? Yep. Because, well, one, 2015 hadn't happened yet. So you were still looking to get back into the playoffs for the first time since winning a World Series in 1993. And there hadn't really been moments where you were all that close. That's why we had the dreaded, meaningful September baseball conversation, like each and every season. And then you went into that year with all the Marlins, trade hype. Oh, God. Oh, man, how does Bud ceiling not throw himself in front of this trade? This is not good for the competitive balance of the sport. The Marlins just dump all their great players that they want all these World Series with. Yeah, you know, except not. On the Blue Jays, how do you allow them to go from also ran to Vegas odds on favorite to win the World Series? Where is David Stern when you need him? Right, yeah, and like Josh Johnson couldn't stay healthy. Yeah, Brandon Morrow couldn't stay healthy. Emilio Bonifacio wasn't headed to the Hall of Fame. I didn't think so, no. Yeah, Jose Reyes was a civic at shortstop. So there was like the 11 game winning streak to get back to 500, but that season was so difficult. Yeah, I think emotionally for Blue Jays fans because of the hope thing, right? Yeah, it was hope. It's a dangerous thing, man. I love Shawshank, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, one day this team will get to as they want to nail. But and this is going to sound harsh in May. It'll be at the trade deadline when whoever this team's version of Red and Andy reunite on a World Series contender, that will be it just so you know. Yeah, so it is May, right? Almost June though, almost, we're there. Oh, well, not yet. The best thing about this season. Oh, is there's no hope? [LAUGHTER] There's just like it's, hey, anything positive that happens to this group as a bonus. Yeah. Right, like honestly, how many Blue Jays fans watched the end of that game? And you were like disappointed, but were you like heartbroken? Yeah. Like each and every loss. And boy, I can take you back to, again, 2013 same location in Detroit. This is true. I guess the Tigers at the beginning of the season, I was there with a group of dudes. We just were intrigued to see this World Series favorite. Finally, the hope of post-season baseball was returning to Toronto after 20 years. And Prince Fielder was legging out infield ground balls, routine ground balls to Emilio Bonavacio in second base. And Josh Johnson was like breaking down because it was cold, Brandon Moore, same thing. Like it was just a nightmare. And it killed you because there was hope. But at least, at the least, there's no hope. That's a great point. Man, I'm often, you know, like you're speaking my language here. I'm the king of like, oh, no, no, no, no, don't think. Don't think a good thing could happen. And with this team, there's just, there's no path to it. We've laid out the case a million times. You have seen the absolute best versions. And, you know, like, Beshette, sure, he could have his bloody month at some point here. But you've seen the best versions of the best guys on this team already. And it is not close to good enough. And yeah, there is no hope. There's also no hope of a, I don't feel like, or sorry, there is not a worry of the other way. Like, this is just a stasis season. It's like, you're not worried about not that there is a guy. I guess it'd be teetamin or somebody like that. But it's like, this team isn't going to go make Gabriel Moreno trade to save itself, or to get itself in the mix. I could not see a world. If they're making trades, it's the other way. I think that is the other important part of this is because sometimes like the no hope, it's like, yeah, but what if the team still wants to hope the fact that there is no world or you can squint and say, okay, we need to amend course in a positive direction here. It's going to be a sell off. And I think that that is, you need, need, need. There will be a win that comes, or there can be a win that comes out of this season. And it needs to be not having the conversations we have every single year about the lack of ability to go make deals because the farm system is where it needs to be. - Again, maybe I need to clarify like hope and expectation to me are kind of synonymous phrases. There's just no expectation, right? And sometimes that's the most fun season you can get. - It's hard to imagine the season turning into like the most fun season you could get, but like in a season in which the expectations are lowered and you exceed them like that. What's more fun than year one of Austin Matthews where you make the playoffs, right? - That's true. - What's more fun than the young Blue Jays arriving? I mean, it wasn't so fun 'cause it was in the pandemic, but like in that 60 game season where they're winning games and getting into the playoffs by the skin of their teeth, how fun was that? So at some point, yeah, again, when they go on their little run and maybe the young players arrive and they start surprising everybody by winning some games, that will be fun. But yeah, there's no hope and there's no expectation right now. - I agree with you. The one caveat I would say to that is that it'd be infinitely more fun if it is post the young guys and you can at least have your David Schneider like moments. If it is, if it is black and I always like blad and blow it. I can always screw up the fronts of their names. - Blad. - Yeah. Blad and blow. If it is those guys, you're not gonna be mad at those guys, but it's like, if it is the guys on this team, if it's like George Springer dragging this team to finish two spots back of a wildcard. - Don't worry about that. - Don't worry about that. - I'm not worried about that. But what I'm saying is that with those teams that you just mentioned, truly nothing was expected. There's no scar tissue built up with the guys around it. It's like here, it's like, oh, okay. If there's a hot August or something, and this isn't, I'm not talking about ruining a draft pick. This isn't a thing in baseball, of like tanking in that regard. But I think that's the difference between those other seasons we outlined there, where it's like, it's all fresh, it's all new. There's a lot of scar tissue with this group. So there will still be, I think, when they do have the hot run, and it's like, yeah, this is fun, they're winning games. There'll still be the scar tissue of like, okay, but why now? Like why not when it mattered or at other times? So I think there will be some element of like, hey, look at this. This team we don't expect anything from is winning games. But unlike those other like early infancy stages of the things we talked about, be it the Matthews Leafs, or even these guys, when they first came up, there's just scar tissue with the group now. - Yeah, there's never gonna be a bad time for this team to win games. - Nope. - I mean, there is also factually now, in Major League Baseball, a draft lottery. So yeah, I mean, you still got a chance to draft high. A better chance than you had previous to that. But no, there is still a chance for this team to make the playoffs. Stranger things in this sport. I know it feels like there isn't a stranger thing than the Blue Jays making the playoffs in 2024. I'm here to tell you, it would not be in the top 100 strangest end of season outcomes in the history of Major League Baseball for the Blue Jays to make the playoffs. Especially when six teams in each league make it. Just right now, what we've seen, it's sound likely. And it allows you, you know what, baseball is stressful. Like when there are expectations. - Yeah, take time. - And you feel like you do have a chance and you're squandering it? - Man, what's more painful than that? I'm talking to Blue Jays fans that lived through 2013 when it felt like, oh, we can't even, we can't even conjure up meaningful September baseball in this season in which we're World Series favorites. According to Vegas, like, oh, well then, it's just like this is a hellscape of our own creating. And then, you know, it took until, boy, a 100 games into 2015 before it finally started to turn. But yeah, it's less stressful when the weight of expectations are lifted from you. And I know that's not happening for the players. And I don't think it's making it any less stressful for John Schneider staring down the barrel of being at the end of his major league managerial tenure. And obviously, Ross Atkins in this front office can't be feeling too great. And we can talk later on about that. But for the fans watching this thing, hey, there's a freedom to being able to watch a team with no expectations and no hope. - Go down to the park, slug some loony dogs, go hang out in the Schneider's Porsche by a 50/50 ticket. I should probably say something that isn't just like giving our company money. It's like basking the sun. Enjoy the day. Don't worry, soap. - The sun that Rogers provides for you. You should be giving some more money to Rogers because without Rogers, you wouldn't have the sun. I don't know how, I mean, they could do the Mr. Burns like blocking the sun thing. - Again, let it be perfectly clear that it is Ben Ennis drawing parallels between Mr. Burns and my beloved bosses. Let me just make that very clear. Thank you, Sandman. - Anyway, it's like, I don't know, it feels like some other evil telecom would do. - Yeah. - There is one. - We know, you're welcome. - We know. - A company whose colors, like, yeah. - Oh, leave it alone, yeah. - Okay, I think, you know, before we take a break, we should petition the Blue Jason, maybe change the season model from to the core to like, hope is a dangerous thing. - I'm here for it. I would gladly take it. - Yeah. - Let's do it. - All right, when we come back, the Oilers are headed home with the series Split, but where's Carter McDavid? When does he get criticized? - That more next as the Fan Morning Show continues, Ben and his friend, Gunning, Sports Set, 590, the Fan. - Hey, it's Ailish Forafar. - And I'm Justin Cushford. - Join us as we discuss the most important sports stories of the day and tee up the biggest games of the night. - It's the Fan Pregame, 6 p.m. weekdays on Sports Set, Sports Set, 590, the Fan, and wherever you get your podcasts. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Fan Morning Show, Sports Set, 590, the Fan, Ben, and his. - Brent Gunning, for a little Panthers. - As they lose an overtime afternoon affair, which again, like play all the sports in the afternoon, especially when they go to overtime. - Yeah, although unfair to the Panthers, 'cause they have had, I know they've only been around for like, you know, decades, but centuries of experience playing games at three o'clock in the afternoon. Like, that is like, that is their time. That is the old Raptors one o'clock on a Sunday time slot. I do feel like the Rangers like to mix in the odd, like, weekend matinee though, so. - Sure. - Faire as fair, I guess. And you're right, I do like, I do, don't be wrong. Like, I love my tenants of like having a game on at seven or seven 30 or whatever. But yeah, especially when there's no contest to be had for golf that weekend, like, which is like, some dudes run away with it and drive in his car out of Charles Schwab. I want to watch sports in the afternoon. So thank you for obliging us. - Yeah, again, overtime, it's fine. When the game starts at three in the afternoon, signing me up, poor little Panthers, lost a game in which they dominated shot attempts, 108 to 44. - That doesn't mean anything though. You have to apologize for it, I've been told actually. You have to say you're sorry for doing that and you should just be better and win. - Buddy, I've been doing some digging up those some postseason stats and like trying to wrap my head around five on five statistics and like, what it means, what does it all mean? And then I keep looking at like the leader board of five on five, like goals for percentage. And like the Leafs are still fifth and then of course, Paul seeks to promise and signing it worse. - I think it worse. - Connor McDavid is one five on five goal back of William Kneelander. (laughing) - Who should have, who should have cut off his arm while apologizing for his disgusting performance. In the first round, when he couldn't see in what a game single handedly, then scored the only goal in game seven. He should have apologized. Unlike that bum Connor. - Anyways, we'll get to Connor in just a second. But yeah, Panthers dominated the Rangers, but they're down to one in series 'cause the Rangers never lost in overtime. This postseason. - I could throw one other reason. - Okay, the guy between the pipes is very good. - Yeah, very good. And like to laugh from here with like one of the goals of the postseason. - That's spectacular, worth the first overall selection. Just because of that. - He is hilarious in that this is now feeding into my theory. I was wondering what was happening of him having a good playoffs every other year 'cause two years ago was the coming out party with like him and Hiedel and the kid line. Then last year, very disappointing first round loss for the Rangers to the Devils. And then this year, exactly back to full value of not being the number one overall pick guy you think of, but he's a jerk. Nasty, he obviously has, he oozes talent. So yeah, I love to see it from him. And yeah, it is funny how these things work. Like he's not a guy you think of as a franchise changer, but God, what a nice piece to have. - And the Rangers building their incredible regular season record and what they've done in the postseason so much on the strength of their power play. I don't know. Like O for nine in series or something stupid. - Not good. - Yeah, anyways, they're up to one because it's hockey. And nothing makes sense other than the Leafs just disappointing and that's the one constant, right? - Yep. - Like everybody else is like, who does so random? - It's like the sun will rise and the Leafs will lose. - It's random, random, random for everyone else off the Leafs. Like they just keep flipping the coin and it's only one side. - Yeah, and then it lands on the side of the coin and then the other team gets to push it to the side they want. - Anywho, so the Rangers are up to one, despite not at times looking like the better team, they got the better goalie. Seems pretty clear. - So they won the president's trophy. It was a race down the stretch and they ended up winning it. The last time a president's trophy winner was Stanley Cup champion. - Yep. - Was 2012, 2013 with the Chicago Blackhawks did it. Before them, three of the previous four presidents trophy winners lost in the first round. You had a Canucks team in 11 that made it to the final and game seven is we don't know. - I guess the Bruins and then they've run the city. - They've run the city. - That's pretty small. - What is like, how often should the president's trophy champion win the Stanley Cup? - There's no right answer to this question. It does not matter. - There is no sport in the world where the playoff version of it and the regular season are complete polar opposites. I suppose you can make an argument. Second would be NBA because the load management completely goes away and guys are playing full bore every night, but go watch those games last night and then I apologize for doing this to you, but let me take you back to January to watch a Leaf game. And you just, it's a completely different sport. And I know people are going to say, yeah, it's the Leafs. No, this goes for a lot of teams. Like maybe the Panthers are able to play their style all year long, but it's just a completely different sport. I'm not saying that the president's trophy team should never win or anything along those lines, but I just look at the sports where we care. I mean, it's really only one. It's like it's soccer. When the regular season, like there is no playoff. I mean, I know MLS does it, but it's because they play like what? Maybe two games in a week, if that ever, like the games just have so much import. We see it all the time where guys are back to backs. You have a backup goalie that's going to play 20, 30. If teams have a dead split, 40 of your games, half the games, that is a, that is a just setting yourself up to fail situation, not say you can't win those games, but I just look at it as it's a completely different sport. I don't look at it as any type of black eye on the NHL or anything that the president's trophy winner never wins the Stanley Cup. - I would like it to feel less like a curse though. Like when you go longer than a decade, it feels like curtsy, especially with the number of teams that have gone out super, super early. - Do you think it's 'cause we haven't had a truly, like a truly transcendent, like Boston was supposed to be that, right? But even that was like, hold on, Boston's the transcendent team after they've like slowly declined and lost. - It's not going to surprise you to learn that before the lockout, before the salary came. - Oh, oh, what a shock between 1999 and 2012, the Stanley Cup winner three times out of four, was the president's trophy champion? - Yeah. - Because yeah, we had dominant, we had dominant forces. We had a Detroit Red Wings at the peak of its powers and power out all the land. - It's just a pile of famers up and down the lineup. - A two, I mean, man, great rivalry between two all time, great franchises in that moment. - No, we should never go back to that. That was obviously a terrible time for the NHL. No one ever looks back on that era fondly. - Well, I mean, Chris Draper probably doesn't. - No. - For a couple of different reasons. But yeah, like, yeah, so to me, I think every five years would at least like make it feel like we did something meaningful for the majority of our hockey watching year, right? Like that the regular season had some level of import. Like every five years, if the president's trophy champion like what if you won the regular season award of the president's trophy and you felt like you had a 20% chance of winning the Stanley Cup? Wouldn't that make it more meaningful? Wouldn't that instead of this thing where it feels like it's almost a detriment to have a good regular season? - Yeah, there is, I know what you're saying and you're right. Like you look at the numbers, there may be as a case to the teams, but I just don't think teams in the NHL like sell themselves out to win the president's trophy. Like not to say the Rangers down the stretch or go aren't saying we want to win this thing, but they're not like, you know, guys aren't playing through things that would detriment or, you know, put in peril then playing in the first round of the playoffs to get to the president's trophy. I just, I look at it as the sport is just too, it's too different. Now I do think you hit on something with the salary cap there. I think if you had truly transcendent great teams and not the world now where there are a few good teams and everyone else is okay or there's a few okay teams and everyone else is bad, whatever way you want to look at that, but if you had truly great teams, 'cause even that Boston team that we look at, oh, they're perfect. Go look at their centers and go tell me they're perfect. Go look at that Decor even and tell me they're perfect when Matt Grizzler playing as much as he did for that team last year that ran away with the president's trophy that I think if this was a non-cap league or even a soft cap league where you could have the NBA bird right stuff, I think you'd see a lot closer to this where occasionally you would have teams because you would get teams like, you know, the least number one new thing, so I won't use them, but Colorado, it's like they've had to jettison guys after winning that cup if they just keep those pieces together and do the Golden State Warriors thing and keep paying the luxury tax. It's like, Kamikar is not getting any worse, it's Nathan McKinnon's not getting any worse, but NASM cadgery is still on that team as their second line center or something along those lines. Like I just think if you had a soft cap or something you would see it happen more often. - I am shocked that Jacob Trooba's elbow like just resulted in a minor penalty in the hockey game yesterday. Like that was wild wacky stuff. Anyways, panel getting into it, I like the XF. God, I just, I love that he has a take and he sticks to it, I, it's so tough 'cause I want like a grass of hard, hard hits in the playoffs. Be cannot like check a winged guy with your elbow. I've defended pretty much every Jacob Trooba hit ad nauseum. Like even the ones where he's like, the one where he nearly gave himself no head when he like decapitated him. So I even defended him on that one. He stuck his elbow out, it's fine. It's like, it's not me in the world. It's five minute, it's a five minute major. I'm fine with that. Do I think it needs to be suspended for it? No, I don't. If this is in the middle of January, yes, I do. I'm a caveman, I love you Biaxa. Thank you for fighting the good fight, even though I don't wholly agree with you. I'm like closer there than I think a lot of other people. - Yeah, yeah, I clearly stuck his elbow out. - Obviously, it was a clear chicken wing. I mean, it's one thing to miss that in real time when you get an opportunity to break it down frame by frame. You're like, oh, minor, definitely minor, I don't think. - I will say though, but like this will shock you in knowing me and working together as long as we have that occasionally I've made up my mind and there's not gonna be a lot of evidence that's gonna sway me on that. So I can, I know where you're coming from, refs. - Okay, have you made up your mind on Conor McDavid? Not a playoff joker? - Listen, okay. - How dare you? - The Oilers head home with a 1-1 series split against a team that was second favorite to win the Stanley Cup. Dallas Stars, pretty good. And they had an opportunity to win both of those games, going to the third period, tied at ones and game two, but they head home. I think they feel disappointed to only have a split, like not overly so. - Right, no, you want the split and you're happy with it, but yeah. - Winnable games, both of them, they won the first game in overtime too, right? So Conor McDavid has six points in his last seven games, but he's- - That's pretty good. - Another way to put that is in four of his last seven games, he's gone pointless. If they don't get through the stars and he stays on this track and he has games where he doesn't even hit the score sheet, how reasonable will it be to levy criticism his way? - Very. You're allowed to criticize the best player in the world. I don't know if anybody listening to this has followed any other sports over the course of the last, I don't know, like, was just put like 20 years on it. I feel like I heard a lot of criticisms of LeBron James, even when he was pretty clearly the best player in the world. And different sport, you know, a player can kind of single-handedly do it, but Conor McDavid had one shot and he was a minus one in that game. Now, I'm not sitting here saying Conor McDavid is terrible or we need to have a different conversation about who the best player in the world is, but we absolutely can say being held pointless in four of your last seven games for a player who is out there to, this isn't Austin Matthews or we talk about the great two-way play all the time. And guess what, when Austin Matthews goes a few games, though, it's going to score in a goal, we criticize him for it. That's not Conor McDavid. Conor McDavid is Conor McDavid because he is a transcendent offensive talent. And if the Oilers bow out in a series where he is relatively speaking quiet, guess what, I think Conor's going to have a three-assist game in this series. I think that's happening. Very well happened in game three. It's entirely possible that we could be seeing that, but I just, you need him to, the way this team is built, you need him in tri-cidal to do it every single night. And that's not to say, Nudge can't step up or there's, you know, like other pieces, but let's be honest, we know who drives the bus there. And so McDavid, yeah, six of his last seven, he had the three-assist game, he had the two-point game, those are going to prop up the numbers. So I think you have to have, you have to be able to have an honest conversation about what can be asked of him. I think the other part of this as well is, how does the matchup game go for him? You know, if Conor McDavid does the thing where he wins his minutes, but it's still a relatively quiet series, I think that's a different conversation than if he is unable to get it done and the stars, stars are feasting against other players. He'll be curious to see what kind of matchup he's able to get now that he's at home last change. But yeah, I think you have to be able to have fair criticism of a player. If he is supposed to be and not supposed to be, he just is the greatest point producer of his era, the greatest since Gretzky, probably, that yeah, if you bow out in a series where your team can't score goals and you aren't able to do it, then yeah, we're going to point the finger at you. Again, it doesn't mean you're still not the best player in the world, but it does mean we can say, hey, how much of the blame pie goes to Conor on this? Of course we can. Oh yeah, if there's statistical evidence to indicate that he didn't produce the way he does normally in the postseason, and again, it's not like he's been bad. Like he hasn't even been bad in this series. No, he's Conor McDavid. Now, they probably need more than just the three power play opportunities and the two games against the Dallas Stars to win this series because man. Or do something at five, or don't just rely only on your power play. Yeah, but you could do that. You could generate offense when it's not easy. You could do that, right? It's a playoffs, it's supposed to be hard, right? Well, it's hard to score on the power play too, especially if you're the genre of my beliefs, but give us not for them. It's actually very easy, apparently. Yeah, it is like it's a huge part of what they do, right? Like they need to rely on the guys who you shouldn't want to have to rely on to give yourselves a power play to win hockey games. Tell me if you've heard this before though. It's like quit whining and waiting for your power play and go score a goal at five on five and stop asking the refs to just give it to you. Have you, I don't know, does that sound familiar at all in these parts? It does, well, I have right now the five on five goals for a percentage this post season. Maple Leafs, they're stuck at 52.38%. They had 11 goals for at five on five. They only gave up 10 against. That's better than the Edmonton Oilers, 51.61, goals for percentage at five on five, 32 and 30, they've given up. And again, Connor McDavid with a robust total of two five on five goals and 251, five on five minutes. William Neelander, again, he's frozen at three five on five goals in 69 minutes and 10 seconds. So yeah, it doesn't change the fact that Connor McDavid is the greatest player on planet Earth and it doesn't change the fact that it's unfair criticism that would be lobbed his way if they lose the series. People will go too far with it, obviously. Yeah, but it also doesn't change the fact that like, that's what you do when you're the best player, when you wear the seat, when you're the face of the league. And you have your junior coach coaching, even though you probably don't want that. And when your franchise does the thing that the Leafs didn't do with the deadline, they mortgage the future every year to try and create a Stanley Cup winner and you don't do it. That's on you, rightly or wrongly. Yep, here, here, here. And I cannot wait to have this referendum one way or another. And also, I might be a little nicer to you if you were playing for the Leafs, Connor. So just keep that in mind when the contract comes up in a couple of years. Definitely something he's thinking about. No, no, obviously, he's like, what would brain gunning say about me? Would it be a good thing? Oh, buddy, they'd be the best. All right, when we come back, not a lot of great things to say about the Toronto Blue Jays. Wonder how this run of play, not just this season, but last, has impacted Blue Jays fans' willingness or want or desire for this franchise to sign Vlad and Bo long-term. We get into that and more next. As the fan morning show continues, Ben Anis, Brent Gunning, Sportsnet 590, the fan.
