over the last couple of years. >> Good morning, Joe sports that 5'9" in the fan, Ben Ennis, Brian Gunning, the Edmonton Oilers. Now, two victories away from the Stanley Cup final after bouncing back from a two-nothing deficit in the opening five and a half minutes against the Dallas Stars yesterday, five unanswered goals to win five to two Chris Knoblock, three new additions to the lineup, three new healthy scratches. And according to Vegas, the Oilers still the third favorite to win the Stanley Cup. But according to Dom Lissigians, a little nerd stat, they are the favorites. Like, if you just go by the nerds, that's only ever so slightly. And the Stars still have home ice advantage, which means like, I don't know, less than nothing. >> That means where the game's played. I got nothing to do. >> I guess. >> I don't know. >> But like, it means nothing. Nobody cares. >> The guy is there? >> All right. >> Yeah. There is no advantage to be had playing on home ice in the Stanley Cup playoffs. According to his metrics, the Oilers now ever so slightly favored against the Dallas Stars and would be favored in the Stanley Cup final against either the Panthers or the Rangers, who also have a two-two series. >> I should go see what Moneypuck says, because the whole year leading into the, we're like, not the Leafs, 9% chances, they probably still have them at 9% or something. >> Dude, it's like how, yeah. So yeah, take it all with a grain of salt, because you are absolutely right. It's the number one indicator that maybe that statistic is not all that accurate, and maybe is not using the correct things to evaluate who the favorite is. But yeah, in some people's world, the Edmonton Oilers are the favorite, and I can understand it. Like, that one actually makes a whole lot more sense than the Leafs one who had to go through the gauntlet of the Atlantic Division, and they frankly just weren't all that good. But look at this Oilers team, obviously, with the players they have. But also what they've been capable of doing, overcoming what is clearly the fourth best goalie remaining. >> Yes, without a shadow of a doubt. >> There's just no ifs, ands, or buts about Stuart Skinner being that dude, and even in yesterday's game, like, hey, bounce back after the two-nothing deficit, the second goal is stanky. Like, say percentage, I still think well under 900 for the postseason. But against the Stars team, with the deflating two goals in the opening five and a half minutes at home, this Stars team who just like, well, one, they don't give you any power play opportunities. And they continued not to do that yesterday. And like, man, you watch them play and you understand what like the after scrum, after whistle scrums, like, it's sort of, but like, they are pretty, but down between the whistles, that's it. >> Yeah, you can see it's a concerted effort not to be involved in any of the extracurricular activity. But like, you don't get power play opportunities. They have arguably the best goalie remaining. They play a structured defensive game to just immediately erase that two-nothing hole. And then again, five straight goals, well, four straight before the empty netter. >> Yeah, this Oilers team, one is maybe the most entertaining team remaining and full value for the way they've looked against. I think most people's cup favorites going into the series, the Dallas Stars. >> Yeah, I think a lot of people had it. I think part of it is the match up. Like, I think people thought the Oilers, I mean, it took seven games for them to scratch and claw past the Canucks. I think there was a reason, I think the Oilers were part of the reason why people were so bullish on the Stars, but that only begets given the Oilers even more credit here. In terms of play style, yeah, like they are the most high-flying team that's left. I think, like, you know, different strokes for different folks. Maybe some people like a Florida and the, you know, meanness there. Maybe some people like the Rangers with the true above it all. But yeah, I think you can easily make the argument. The thing that I keep coming back to is you mentioned is the biggest part of the game is just the ability to respond to being punched in the mouth early on in that game. Why Johnson score is less than a minute in. It's five and a half in. You're down to nothing. You think, boy, here we go. And the nature of the Oilers would be, all right, we have to open it up completely. We have to get running. We have to get gunning. And that's not what they did. They played a still pretty concerted game. And yeah, they had the flurry of goals that kind of really opened it up there with dry saddle scoring the four to one, which really kind of gave them the breathing room they needed. But that's the thing is just having the ability to not get completely rattled by the start of that game and especially the second goal. So we've both been on record about the rooting for Canadian teams just because you live in Canada. It's not a real thing despite non-sports media talking about it being a real thing. It's not a real thing. But I will say that there's teams that you actively root against. And certainly part of it is like a conference foe or a divisional foe or a historic rival. Right. Well, it's kind of likable though. I must say, like just from an overall perspective, I mean, part of it is we're going to watch Conor McDavid, Don team Canada sweater next February in this four nations cup thing. Yeah, I think he'll make it. I think he might be okay in that regard. And Leon dry saddle kind of just like being like the likable jerk like he's a jerk, but like in a good way. He's a pussy German. Yeah. Yeah. Like he's like Corey Perry drew back in the lineup. So like maybe, but it does feel like if you were just a neutral observer, that is just an easy team to root for. Yeah. I'm trying not to strictly apply my own sensibilities because I agree. Like I would say of all the Canadian teams, it is probably the Oilers that I find myself pulling for the most just when you see like you're watching out of market hockey in the middle of February or something, it's like I do find myself getting pulled to the Oilers side of the equation. But I'm shocked it is this way. And again, it's like I'm trying not to have my own sensibilities here, but just the insane jealousy of getting Gretzky and McDavid, I would have thought no one could ever bring themselves to cheer for that team or say like, ah, good for them, good for those Oilers. But even me who's like the king of petty jealousy does not feel that way about this team. But you would think that it's so unfair. How do they get the two ones? And we don't hold that against them. I certainly don't. It's weird. The jealousy lies for me. Oh, well, we already did the Sheldon Keith comparing him to Chris Knoblock and the roles of the dice that Chris Knoblock has taken now in three guys out, three new guys in for yesterday's huge, huge game and it paying off in spades. He's only a head coach of that team because they started off like abysmally and lost to the San Jose freaking sharks, I remember. And I don't think it was Jay Woodcroft's fault. Oh, almost certainly not. Yeah. And I think, you know, maybe Connor McDavid being hurt to start the season impacted that a little bit. Maybe. I'm sure Jay Woodcroft is watching this like he's grit in his teeth. Yeah. I actually, you know what? He's not watching this. Oh, yeah. And I'm not saying it swings things the other way for the Leafs. But like, it's almost the other's benefit that they got that boost of fire the head coach early in the season. And I'm not saying that Jay Woodcroft wouldn't have made the same moves. But like, if Brad's were living was that close to firing Sheldon Keefe anyway, and there were moments where you could have made the move, but none as obvious as what the Oilers had to start the season was like, you got to do something. I remember talking to a specter on this show early in that or during that run and saying, well, like, there's no chance they make the playoffs here. What a waste of a season for Connor McDavid and silly that turned out to be because what do they win? Like 13 straight to like get themselves out of that thing. But yeah, there's a part of me that that thinks about the sliding door scenario. If the Leafs had been bad enough to force Brad for living into firing Sheldon Keefe, not to say that Sheldon Keefe didn't do a great job during the regular season. Yeah. But like, and timing wouldn't have worked out. Like if we would have to come right as Kripe Rube was being fired by the Blues. Yeah. And there is a part of me that wonders like, man, if the Leafs had been just as bad as the Oilers were to start the season and forced a coaching change on themselves, how differently does this season play out? I don't think that differently. But I also am of the mind that if you're, if you're just going to hire Craig, like, I've been on record of this, that if you're just going to hire Craig Brube and I know they are going to tell me they didn't know they were going to do that. I think they knew that this was what's going to happen. Then you should have fired your head coach and like Craig Brube, they do what he does best and give you the dead cat bounce of the end season higher. So I'm not as much of the belief of like, ah, what could have been, but seeing how we ended up at that place anyways, watching the Oilers. Yeah. It's hard not to think about that. Yeah. It's hard not to think about like the multiple examples we have of guys taking over in season and winning Stanley Cup. So I mean, we just talked about disco Dan Bilesmouth taking over in Pittsburgh, winning a Stanley Cup talking about Craig Brube taking over mid season, the last place team and winning Stanley Cup could be Chris Knoblock taking over at the beginning of the season and winning Stanley Cup. There's a lot of examples over the course of history with the sport. All right. Time now for our insider brought to you by Don Valley, North Lexus where you can expect excellence online and in the showroom visit Don Valley North Lexus.com. It is Luke Gazdick former NHL forward, of course, on the sports that hockey panel. How's it going, Luke? Good. What's up, boys? Nothing, man. What a series. What a game yesterday. Incredible bounce back from that Oilers team after like a two nothing deficit and the way the two goals were scored, especially on the second one, five and a half minutes into the game and staring down the barrel of being down three one like that. That showed me something that the Oilers were able to bounce back from that. I know. And like on the small and like as a whole, that's kind of like this Oilers team is like it's a tale of two teams, man, within the game and within the series. Sometimes it's, you know, I get asked about starts all the time, like probably more than anything as a former players, like why do teams come out flat? Like is it coaching as an individual? I always thought it was more, you know, up to the player, it was up to me individually to have myself going, but also sometimes you get out there and the other teams just whipping around. They score a goal in the first shift and you're just like, man, what is going on here? Like I can't feel like you can do anything right. But credit to credit to the oil man and like Stu Skinner kind of locked in after that. Obviously, I think they got a really good effort from the middle of their lineup. I think I'll get into that in a bit because I know you're talking about Chris Knoblock and the higher early in the season, man, he's made some bold moves and lineup changes. And I'm starting to really like and trust some of the things he's doing, but you're right, get it to that team for just kind of sticking with it and honestly fighting back after two because it's not easy. Yeah, no, it's not. I mean, God, we've seen how many teams shoot themselves in the foot at the beginning of playoff games and then they get chase in the game. And then all of a sudden the two goal deficit you find yourself in is three or four. And then especially thought you're at the other side of it, you're certainly not getting there. You mentioned the moves that Knoblock made. Is there one you liked in particular? I mean, honestly, the move and easy for me to say this in hindsight because I would have gone the other way. But I think the best move you made is the one he didn't and it's stick him a stew Skinner. I would have gone to pick quite quite frankly and maybe would have even done it after after the second goal was there one move in particular of the three roster moves or even just stick him a Skinner that you liked the most on an oblock. Hey, well, I guess that's not why you're not coaching in the NHL, right? Yeah. One of the what just the only reason, Luke, you know, I got a good hockey face, but that's the only thing holding me back. Yeah. Honestly, I said this before the broadcast before game three when he had made a couple tweaks and it was taking Ryan McLeod out and I wasn't exactly on board for that move. Even though it was a small change, their penalty kill had killed 19 in a row and he was a huge part of that. But I kind of stopped myself and I remember prepping and thinking, you know, every move that Chris Knoblock has made is very calculated. And I've learned that he has I'm very far away from the team, right? Like I talk to people, but I'm not in the dressing room. And I just feel like Knoblock has such a good pulse of his team and like who's going, who's not, who plays well with each other, like who potentially can play well with each other. The biggest move, I think, you know, what you can look at the middle six, he completely revamped the his second and third line. And that's a pretty ballsy thing to do in the third round of the playoffs at home and pretty much a must-win game, but he put young Phillip Broberg in and a kid who had not played in the playoffs this year, 22 years old, former first rounder, played a lot in Bakersfield towards the end of the year, but he takes out Vinny Dejarnay, who I know he really likes. It was Vinny's birthday yesterday. Oh, and like he's played, he's played some pretty good hockey. I think he's been, you know, he's had his bad looks at times, but he leads their team and hits in the playoffs. He consistently is that physical presence. And he takes them out to put in a kid who's never played in the NHL playoffs before. And it's like, okay, I guess this is how we're how we're going. And I just think at this at this point in the playoffs to be able to trust your guys outside the lineup that much and to have Corey Perry come back into like Paris might have been their best forward, honestly. And Connor Brown talked about it a bit after the game was guys are just chomping at the bit in the in the press box to get back in. But no blocks made some great moves, even just set a little lineup change, just like that. Well, and Connor Brown himself, man, remember the narrative surrounding him with the quadrillion games he went without a goal like to be relevant again in the postseason? What have you made of his narrative arc? It's unreal, man. Between the second and third, he was my focus point, took him 54 games to score goal this year. Everybody in oil country and heck in hockey was all over him and kind of clowning the signing. And I talked to him the summer before on my pod and how excited, you know, he was at the possibility of even joining Edmonton, but he has a really rough start. And I think I even overlooked the fact that fact that how long it can take a player to come back after a major ACL knee surgery like that. So it took him some time to go, but I told this story, and I hope he doesn't mind, but I told the story on the air last night of I was down in Dallas for in all, there's alumni thing. Euler stars alumni thing and he hadn't scored yet. This is I think February like second and they were playing the stars and I ran into him at the hotel and he was just devastated like he was really down on himself. He wasn't like the brownie that I knew and he stuck with it and he continued to push. And I think now he's playing. I said some of, but I think it's his best hockey as an Euler. He's contributing every night in the lineup, whether it's on a score sheet or not, he's chipped in with a couple of big goals, but great on the four check and they're penalty kill. Now 23 kills in a row without a goal eight games without allowing a goal in the penalty kill. And he's a huge part of that. Yeah, you'd be, you'd be hard pressed to find many people in this city with a, with a bad word to say about, about Connor Brown. I mean, it's funny you mentioned that story because the thing I did always sticks out to me about his time in the Leafs. It was one of the road to winter classic 24/7, whatever behind the scenes show it was. And, you know, the Leafs are coming out and Connor Brown's parents are there. Like it's a junior hockey gave their weight and for him. And, you know, he's down. They lost. He's rejected. And his mom's like, Oh, what's wrong? And his dad's like, obviously they lost. He's upset. That just gave me the perfect insight into kind of who, who he is. And honestly, yeah, it's just a thrilled for him that he's kind of found his footing after a really, really rough start looking at Dallas. The thing I've kind of been looking at during these playoffs is, you know, a team wins a cup. It changes the life of just about everybody. It changes the way we view all of these players. But I'd be hard pressed to find two guys left in these playoffs that could maybe change their legacies more with a win than Ben and Sagan. I mean, Joe Pavelsky has had this incredible second prime that the respect he's going to carry forward from this with without a cup. I mean, obviously with the cup, it changes it. But it feels to me like Ben and Sagan specifically, if they're able to get a cup with this Dallas team and then all of a sudden we go from guys who, you know, maybe didn't reach the offensive heights that you would have expected, especially for Sagan to, Hey, these guys just found a role. They were able to be the veteran leader types. It feels to me like maybe more so than anyone else in these playoffs outside of, I don't know, like maybe Conor McDavid himself that nobody's legacy can change in a way more with a win than those two and Ben and Sagan. No, I would agree with that. And Benny's a great, a great story and a great example of that. So I was originally drafted to Dallas in 2007 with Jamie, Jamie went in the fifth round. I was in the sixth round right behind him. So we went from 17 years old, we went to development camps and prospect tournaments. And I remember our first main camp when we actually had a crack at making the team, we were both 19, 20 years old. I tore my shoulder that camp fighting and he ended up making the team out of camp and he never looked back. He kind of just shocked. I don't want to say shocked everyone because I think everyone knew how good he was that time. But he had like five goals and four games in the preseason and his career just took off from there. And the older guys just started loving him. Like the way he played physical, incredible shot, good skill set. Two years later, I was in the video room when Jim Nill named him the captain and I just remember all the vets going nuts. Here's this young 22 year old kid and it's been a tough go for him. Like his body has been through the ringer. He's had like, I think both his hips done, both his shoulders done, like he's had a hard career at 34 now and he's given a lot to the game of hockey. And he's gotten as close as pretty much as close as you can. And man, it sucks that it's the Oilers because I obviously have a soft spot for the oil. But there's nobody in probably in hockey that I want to see win a cup more than Jamie Ben. So I think that's kind of a cool thing about this is no matter what happens with the oil, getting to see Benny have a chance at it is a very cool thing. He's definitely earned it the hard way. Yeah, whoever wins, you win. So good for you. John Tavares went to the refs that year, the Jamie Ben won the art Ross and was like, please take away my second assist. So now he's an art rock champer ever to right with his like 82 points burned into my brain. Yeah. Wow. The NHL has come along with David does that in two months. Yeah. All right. Before they go, I want to ask you the least question. It's very important. One, Mitch Marner, Craig Baroobay sitting down for coffee. Can we call it? Can we call it? Absolutely not. The TMZ style. Absolutely not. Okay. So I have, I have literally a draft in my tweets and I didn't send it because I was like, I don't want to like go back and forth with people on Twitter, but we need to cool it with the TMZ style photos here in Toronto, McClellan at the airport. Now we got Barooby with Marner having a coffee and a Toba Co like people wonder why guys don't want to play here. And I'm kind of joking, but not really like, they're like, oh, Florida Dallas, no state taxes. You wonder why guys are going down there? Because when they go for a coffee with their head coach, people aren't taking photos of them and posting it on Twitter online for people to argue about. Barooby shoulder position and body line. You don't think he had a defensive position, you know, like don't you break up with someone in public? First it was Mitchie at, I think he was at Turtle Jacks in Muscoque and having lunch. And it's like, man, it's the off season. Like it's just leave the kid alone, man. And I understand the argument like, see, he's in a public place. Like you should, you know, you should be willing to have your photo taken. If you go out in public, like, man, just have some, have some privacy. I have some, a sense of respect, like, well, nobody went over to them. I think. Right? Like they did leave them alone. They just would you with a telephoto lens, would you have preferred if the guy's face who took it was in there, like he got in on a selfie with that, a better or a wealthy style. Yeah, honestly, I, I just, I can't do it anymore with this stuff. Yeah, don't hesitate to send those tweets out. Just, just fire them from the head. Yeah. I was going to say, yeah. You get at least one like for me. Yeah. Indeed. All right. I'll think about it today. Luke, always great to chat, man. Thanks for this. Anytime boys talk to you soon. See you. There's Luke Gasek former NHL forward sports that hockey analyst host of the Mitzoff podcast and our insider brought to you by Don Valley, North Lexus, where you can expect excellence online and in the showroom, visit Don Valley, North Lexus dot com. One of our favorites. I love him. I was wondering where he was going to go with that. I'm like, oh, we, I thought he was going to like, we have to stop making anything out of it. Yeah. I'm going full. No pictures. No pictures. It's like we all got to do the thing like we're going to like a stand up show in 2024 of like, yeah, you can have your phone. You can hold it. Just no using it. Yeah. Hey, Luke's entitled to his opinion. And I'm sure better hope you better hope I don't see him out in Yorkville snap. I'm sure that that feeling is one that maybe is prevalent amongst NHL players that like you come here and a man, you're a leaf and you got no privacy. Yeah. Mitch Marner is making a million bucks. He gets to be Mitch Marner. I'm, I'm of such two minds of that because it's like I tend to have the prevailing sentiment of like, yeah, that's what the money's for. And oh, oh, it's so, so tough that people care so much about you in, in this market. But I'd be lying if I don't hear that and go like, yeah, there is some truth. This is that it's, it is ridiculous, but it is also part of the reason why you correct me if I'm wrong outside of John Tavares and he didn't say Toronto or nowhere else. He just came to Toronto. I've never heard a report of an NHL player saying I'm only going to, I've heard Jason Spencer say he will retire if someone claims him off waivers, but I have never heard a player say I'm only going to go to Toronto or for that matter, I'm only going to go to Edmonton. I'm only going to go to Vancouver. It is only the places where people don't care and that is a problem that the best athletes in the world and I don't begrudge them for it. I probably would have some similar sensibilities about me, but it is a problem that everybody in the sport wants to play in the places where they care the least. It's tough. I don't, again, I apply my own sensibilities, easy to say, but I would want the smoke. If I was a competitive professional athlete and I was really good at my job, I would want everyone to see how many, but this is the thing, those guys get the best of both worlds. We fall over ourselves to gush over all the talent in Florida, all the time when it gets to the postseason and they get to be celebrating all the hockey fans and the whole state show up at the parade. If they win, that's great. But then you go back to your regular season where you're anonymous or you're walked down the street and you're anonymous, like, don't you want to be a celebrity? Isn't that part of the whole thing about being a professional athlete? Well, I think this is part of the problem. Not problem. It's like part of the sensibility of hockey players is like, I think a lot of them don't. And this is why, I don't know what should it be, like $10 million extra, the Leafs and all Canadian. It's like, I can't decide if these teams should get more money or Florida teams should get less. I don't have to. It is becoming such a point in this league that everybody is dying to go where people care so little. And that's a problem. It is. Fix it. We're a golf country anyways. Oh, that's right. Um, Taylor Penrith has had a couple of good birdie looks. He's got another one coming up here. He's even par Rory McElroy thrown it in the bushes on his third hole, but he's got himself onto the green. Nick Taylor started his tournament with a bogey and then immediately chips in on the 11th hole. The chip in was not 73, 73 feet perfect for you. It's like he did. He actually did that just for you. So you can sound right when he, you know, like obviously Nick Taylor is going to finish his round and then be like, what did they say about me on the morning show? He's going to pull us up and he's going to be like, I did that just for you, Ben. So you could sound correct retroactively. Thank you, Nick. Um, as mentioned earlier in the show, James addiction along with love and rockets will be performing at Budweiser stage on September 18th and we're giving away tickets to end of her chance to win text in today's code word, love and rockets to 59590 again. That's love and rockets to 59590 given away another pair of tickets tomorrow. But if you don't win with us, make sure to secure your tickets tomorrow 10 a.m. on ticketmaster.ca. When we come back, the national baseball pundits are all talking about the blue jays and a potential sell off. How realistic is that? We'll talk to Brian Kenny of MLB network. Next is the fan morning show continues, Ben and his spring gunning sports that 590 fan. Hey, it's Nick Kiprios and I'm Justin Bourne. We're diving deep in everything happening in Lee Fladd and the biggest stories around the NHL. Real Kipper and Bourne weekdays from four to six on Sportsnet Sportsnet 590 the fan and wherever you get your podcast, fan morning shows for 759 the fan Ben and his Frank gunning that was Dan O'Dowd on MLB now on MLB network, which you can watch weekdays at noon and that show is hosted by our next guest, Brian Kenny host of MLB now on MLB network again at noon on MLB network joins us online. How's it going, Brian? Good. How are you guys doing? All right. Unfortunately for the blue jays, they're out of white Sox games. They went five and one against the white Sox. That's the only thing they've been able to beat in a series in the last month. I mean, it is only May. So there's time to turn it around. But if they don't, should they be tearing it down? It's a tough call. That's why I was. That's funny because I've got it on how much you ran out of what we did on the show. But on the program, I'm a big fan of realizing who you are and facing that reality. And I'm a big fan of the rebuild and coming back strong with your championship team. Not everyone seems to be wanting to build a team, not everybody, but enough teams want to build a team strong enough to grab the last wildcard. And I think you should have higher aspirations and be built. And I was thinking, you know, Mets, Red Sox, Padres, Cardinals are not facing reality. But I never thought Toronto would be in that situation. So I give them credit for, I think that report came out last week that they're looking at their options, the possibility of tearing it down. But my basic feeling is they're too far down the road. I'm more inclined to play it out. And I also, I would understand, you know, you guys up there and the club itself, it'd be difficult to declare this era, this Boba Chet, Vlad Guerrero era over. So I think they're smart to be and pragmatic to be thinking about it. But unless you really go downhill and that hasn't happened yet, I think you're better off playing it out. Yeah. I think that tends to be the prevailing wisdom here at the very least for this season, right? I think that's the other part of it is that not that those deals can't be made in season. Certainly, we've seen players of note with more than one year on contract before they go to free agency. We've seen those deals happen before, but it does just seem like if a team is going to have such a sea change moment, and it certainly would be for the Blue Jays, and it's entirely possible it would be for whatever team is acquiring one of those guys in Vlad or Beshette, that it just seems like it's so much easier to do those deals at the winter meetings as well. And unless the Blue Jays are getting kind of blown away, I don't know that there's an impetus for them to do it this year. You know, there's also a shortage of teams that need short stops. There's a lot it's strange, but to say normally there's a dearth of quality short stops. That's not true right now. Most of the top teams have a guy planted at short. Now, maybe teams blow somebody out for Boba Chette, I would, but you know, when you go team by team, you know, just Yankees, Texas Rangers, even Seattle, I just name any team that's good. The St. Louis Cardinals, everyone's got a short stop that they're committed to or that they like they should like. So it would take the right team normally that, you know, there's only five short stops that can hit in any given time, but now there's like 11. So it's very different, even though, again, I think the world of Boba Chette, I think I had him not in my top 10 right now. I think I had him second or third. He's very good. He means a superstar player, but there's not that many teams that that would just be automatically in the market for him. Yeah, I mean, I wonder how how willing the Dodgers are to go to the end of the season with Moogie Betts is their short stop. Maybe there's a fit there, but it's a great point. The other guy is that obviously would be part of a total rebuild and trading him away and recouping assets is Vladimir Guerrero Jr, who's bounced back recently with a bunch of singles like he's got the OPS over 800. But boy, the power that we saw in 21 and yeah, to a lesser degree in 22, it's just vanished. Brian, he's got five home runs this season. The slugging percentages at four 12 and he's, he's not a short sob, he's a first baseman. What do you perceive Vladimir Guerrero Jr's value around baseball? No, I'm with you, I think it's diminished certainly and, you know, it's worrisome because they don't not only, you know, like he has strange metrics. There's good underlying metrics there with his hard hit percentage. He's one of the top five, five hard hit percentages, but you know, he's got that strange thing where he's not getting carry on his fly balls. Like this is a weird thing, you know, to be addressing, but like, you know, he's, he's not driving the ball for long distances. So that means he's flying out an awful lot and he's smoking the ball, but it's not being, you know, it's not being lifted. So all that power that he looked to have at 21, 22 is not coming to fruition at 24 and 25. That's rare and it's worrying. And I also think like there's got to be worries about his, his work ethic because he's a guy who was like, as I see him on the field and he works hard, but like he came up, he was as heavy as a young man, yet to be moved from third base to first base. And his power has diminished when it should be increasing. So what's happening? I don't have the answers to that, but to your point, that is not making him more attractive on the marketplace. That's a shame. I was really hoping you have we've asked just about everybody in baseball and no one seems to have an answer for it. Like I was looking at, I was looking at some of his launch angle that had ticked up over the past couple of years and you're squinting and trying to see, okay, maybe it's a matter of kind of finding the right kind of zone in that. Obviously you don't want to be pounding balls in the dirt, but you don't want to be popping up either. I was wondering if that was the case, he is a fascinating player. Like if you just look again to your point, the blast metrics or the hard hit rate barrel, whatever those percentages are, he is among the elite in the game. And you know, I also think it is he is in such a unique, or he's in such a unique place given the perception because you mentioned, I mean, I heard you guys talking about this in the clip we ran a bit of to start it. It's like you throw in Vlad and Beshed and then even Bezio, all these sons of major leaguers and he comes up and that he has the borderline MVP season. I still, when we are talking to be it ex players or, you know, people within the game, you'll still hear, oh no, that's the face of the franchise. That guy has great things ahead of him. It just he, he almost feels like a player that it's impossible to negotiate a contract with right now as well because of all of this, Brian. And I think that is what would kind of complicate a trade even further is the fact of what do you pay that guy? You got to pay him, but you don't pay him like an MVP if he's not going to be one. No, you're absolutely right. And it's the Mets are kind of facing that same situation with Peter Lanzo, right? And they're kind of similar in that, hey, these guys are productive. It's not like they're not productive players, but they're, they're feeling with sky high, but that's not what they're doing on a regular basis. And we, and you're right, what is the market, how does the marketplace deal with that now that most teams are very pragmatic, they're smart, they understand things. And do you want to be paying a large bodied first baseman as the guy gets into his thirties? And the answer is no. You don't want to be doing that. Nick, I just want to answer the other first question. We've had our guys here at MLB Network address the swing path. It's a very kind of weird specific thing, but it's Sean Casey, for example, who was briefly the hitting coach for the Yankees last year and he's worked at him. He did top 10 right now with us. And we broke it down. And yeah, it is, it's his swing path where he is hitting the ball, but topping the ball and not getting that classic, you know, Mark Maguire, you know, underspin where the ball then carries on your fly ball. So he's kind of like topping the ball a bit. So he's driving it, driving it hard, but then spinning and it's going down, it's getting really in the weeds, but there is an answer for it. Oh, we love it. Thank you. It's in the weeds with his swing path. No, so it's there. It's there. And look, like swing path is a big thing now that can measure bad speed swing path. You can get the guy's body mechanics and he can measure these. And so if he's going to the right people, they know what's happening and why it's happening. And there's other things like, you know, well, just what is he eating? How is he training? What's he doing? Is he working hard? Like he should be getting stronger and he's not. So I'm looking at a lot of different things. But to your point, what did we just see on the, on the, on the off season market, Blake Snell, right, who else am I thinking of not Matt Chapman, who's the, the, uh, Cody Bellinger? Oh God. I'm losing all Cody Bell. Cody Bellinger. Yes. High ceiling low floor guys. Guys who, if you judge them by their best season, you go, God, I've got to pay this guy 300 billion. But then you say, well, which season am I getting? Right. Because, you know, Blake Snell has two great seasons wrapped around four mediocre ones. Cody Bellinger has two disastrous seasons, but then he's pretty good. But five years ago, he was great. So I think the same thing with Vlad, then you can look at him and say, wow, when he was 22 or 23, he was fantastic. He's an MVP, you know, level hitter. But what season am I getting and what's going to happen as he ages? So the market was not, uh, was fairly definitive on Bellinger and Snell in that no one is willing just to hand out huge contracts. They got good at AAVs. They got paid. They have high salaries. It's not like they're, you know, they went broke, but they're not getting that, you know, get Scott Boris, learn this firsthand. They were not getting this $300 million, $275 million contract. Yeah. And honestly, if you were going to, to degrade, uh, Ross Atkins off season and Dia, there's some of the, the, the additions that, okay, you know what? Isaiah Kiner-Philoff has actually been, uh, pretty good, uh, considering the expectations for him. But if you were going to give him a, a positive check, it would be on not pursuing some of those free agents down the line of what we thought they were going to get. Um, you're right. They didn't get the term that they were looking for, but nobody looks like a game changer at this point, uh, that signed in the off season to that point though about the, the, the front office of this blue Jay's team. I mean, that's another complicating factor here, Brian, because they took over at an interesting time in this franchise's history. They had made the playoffs for the first time in over 20 years in 2015 under Alex Anthopolis and then Mark Shapiro hired as the president, Anthopolis moves on, uh, brings in his own guy from Cleveland in Ross Atkins. They make the playoffs again with the leftovers in 16 and then they have to kind of rebuild on the fly. And immediately it seems like they had like one or two years of in the wilderness and then make the playoffs and, and Vlad and Boa arrive and they come within a game of making the playoffs in 2021 with 91 wins, then they make it with 92 the next season, but haven't won a playoff game and now 89 wins a season ago again, only scored one run in two playoff games against the twins in this year boy, it looks like they are going to be touching go to be even in the conversation as far as the third wild card in the American league is concerned. At what point do you have to look at at making a change in general managers here with now a near decade long run? Well, I think think of what you're saying though, and I did, I addressed this, you know, in the essay, um, this run has been successful. They're averaging 91 wins a season over the last three. So I think we have a tendency to compare that the Blue Jays, too, I know like Med Dog Russo compares them to the Padres, uh, the Blue Jays, the Padres, they haven't done anything, they haven't won anything, blah, blah, blah, blah, and it's like, hold on, the Padres are, or I will like below 500 most of last year, like they've failed. They fail. Toronto is not failing. I think the lack of playoff success has kind of overridden that they've been good. Now they haven't won the A.L. East, you know, granted, I know that was brought up yesterday. It's not. So it's been the Rays. It's been the Orioles. So they haven't taken over that division. So I know it's, it's more was expected and yet, you know, they make the playoffs two out of three years. They're averaging 91 wins a season that's success. So I think we have a, the, the weirdness of October has skewed our view of Toronto and it has skewed our view of what the Blue Jays have actually accomplished. And look, last year, the Braves didn't win a playoff game. They got wiped out two years ago. The Dodgers won 111 games. They got wiped out in the first round, uh, the national, Washington Nationals, until they won it all in 2019, they were an epic failure in the playoffs. It takes what you do and it's a bit unfair. I'm not saying it's completely random, but there's a lot of randomness to it where you just happen to lose in a certain half a week in October. And now everything is a failure. It's just not true. It's just too random now that we're playing tournament baseball with 12 teams. Yeah, there definitely is an element to that. I think you hit the nail on the head with the weirdness of October has affected this all because it hasn't just been that the Blue Jays lost. It's that they haven't won a game in the postseason in this era. I mean, you had one, one game where they're up eight one and bow and George Springer collide in center field. You have another game where burrios is getting yanked early and nobody really understands why. I mean, people understand, but nobody really wanted to put their hand up and say, I love to do that. Vlad gets picked off to end it at second base last year. They've just been these kind of fork in the road moments in the playoffs where if you lose a hard fought eight, seven game, it feels one way. But man, the way it's gone for the Blue Jays there, but I also think this kind of goes back to what you said earlier on in the interview about there's a lot of teams that are trying to build the second best wildcard team or can you get to 90 wins? We heard this from Jerry DiPoto at the end of the season last year of you just want to be winning. I forgot what the number 40 or 54% of your games or whatever, whatever it was over a five year run. And I think that is the point where people get frustrated by this and I don't mean this to make this about the Blue Jays. I think there are a lot of teams outside of the Dodgers, Braves and I don't know, well, Phillies never win the regular season anyway. So those two teams that can make this case, it does just seem like it's the way the nature of the sport is. It's so hard to build a sustainable winner that it does seem like you have a lot of teams that are just kind of hoping to get to 90 wins and see what happens. Well, that's it. You have to decide who you are. And I thought that my basic feeling was Toronto is too good just as the Astros are too good to tear it down. So I'm a rebuilding fan, but there are certain clubs that are still in their window. And so if it's not working out over a half season, sometimes you have to let it play out. I think Toronto and Houston are both good enough, deep enough and have the right roster. They've been well constructed that you have to let it play out. And while other teams just don't face who they are, like the Mets, the Mets are the Red Sox of this. You can't rebuild in a big market. Yes, you can. Oh, the fans would understand, yes, they will, as long as you're headed in the right direction. And I think we've seen look very quickly, you can turn it around like yesterday we had a ball game. We had the Pirates of the Tigers. I even said this on air. I said, hey, not long ago, Tigers in Pirates, hey, our game is coming up right after MLB now. Yawn. Who cares? Are you kidding me? Now it's Tarek school versus Jared Jones. Those are young, exciting players. That's a, you know, that's good. That's a good game. The Orioles were a joke two years ago. Now it's like the Orioles are the class of baseball. It can turn around quickly. You've got to commit to it and you can't be trying to grab a wild card on your way to your championship team two or three years from now. You actually have to commit to that championship team, put all your resources toward that. So if I'm looking at the Blue Jays now, I'm like, this is a complete unit. Like can you get better? Yes. Should they have kept Matt Chapman? Yes. That would have helped them immensely. Yeah. This is a team that should win. I think you need to play it out. And they will, at least until July, you would imagine again, Brian Kenny, host of MLB Now on MLB Network, which you can watch. No, not long enough. By the way, no, not long enough. No, no, I'm not saying that. No, no, no. All right. No, play it out. Play it out. If you're, because no, July's not long enough. You got to believe in it. You know, you're, I, that's another thing, like believe in that. You can't look at like this team's last year that scrapped it in July. Like maybe you should have just played it out. All right. I'm sorry to interrupt it. No, no, I was going to say, when you said not long enough, I was like, Oh, you want to talk longer in this radio hit. This guy doesn't want to leave. I love this. No problem, Brian. We'll carry you over past the top of the hour. I don't, I don't want to go back to my, I don't want to go back to my production media. All they do is yell at me. Sorry, buddy. We got to, we got to, we got to send you back. This was an absolute pleasure. Thanks for doing this, Brian. All right. Keep the faith. All right. Thanks, Brian. Brian Kenny, host of MLB Now, on MLB Network at noon, okay? So he's saying play it out, play it out, play it out, play it out, which is not entirely exactly what I was saying, but I did say that you're too far down this road to tear it down. And also you're too big a market to be like, everybody's gone. Let's lose forever. Yeah. And you have too many guys under contract for longer than Vlad and Bo that are good. Yeah. And Vlad and Bo, while they may not be what you thought they would be, I think Bo is. Okay. I think the numbers will eventually get back to him looking like that. Vlad, clearly not what we all expected him to be. Those are still good players and players you're happy to have on your baseball team. I think Brian's maybe overstating like the supporting cast and the rest of it and how a complete team, how much of a complete team this blue JST is, especially offensively. Yeah, cuz I think there's some pretty obvious holes there, but yeah, you're too far down the line here. It's just, to totally pivot, I'd be doing the opposite thing. I would be trying to work out extensions for Vlad and Bo and seeing where, like how far apart you are with either guy, if not both of them. And yeah, that allows you a little more wiggle room at the deadline to trade away the guys that are pending free agents if this season's not gonna go that way. And also like the other thing about the playoffs and everybody making them is that I think Brian's on to something when you say like, hey, it's not, you don't wanna be that team that is like competing for a wild card spot to get your teeth kicked in. Yeah, and while it is like it's a roll of the dice when you get to the postseason, it's still like kind of not, especially when you have the record that the blue J's have not just this year, but like last year against good teams. I was gonna say against the good teams. Yeah, the white Sox are not gonna be there. No, you don't think? Well, they might watch team outing. Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's, it is, it's more like the NBA in that regard now where it's like, man, go back to a couple of years ago when the Dallas Mavericks had a chance to push for a play internment spot and instead tanked, got themselves a draft pick. And here they, they are very much in the championship conversation. That's where baseball is headed, not just chipping a chair or get into the postseason. Yeah, for sure. There's an element to that. Something that's going to compliment, complicate it the most is that the guy that it's easiest to do the contract with in Beshette in that there's a bigger baseline of what the player is. It's probably harder to do a contract with because one, he's actually under control, like, or not just team control, but he has a contract already for next year. And you're, when you are a guy that's this close to market, you're going to want to get there. Whereas with Vlad, he seems maybe more open to wanting to do it and be here for sure, not the Beshette doesn't, but it's so much harder to know what to pay that guy and the idea of two, those two parties having anywhere close to, you know, the same contract value in mind. It just makes it so tough. So I agree. That's the tag to take. I just can't see a world where an extension gets done with either one of those guys in season. Yeah, it's hard to know what the number is because, yeah, I mean, the perception each player has of himself, I think Bose is correct, Vlad's probably not. The other thing I keep coming back to is like, okay, where is this? This hall that they're going to get at the deadline for either Boba Shedd or Vladimir Guerrero Jr. I just, it's hard to imagine. And Brian mentioned the fact that so many teams have short stops. But I mentioned the like the one, the most important one that could be the biggest factor in his free agency, although it's hard to imagine the Dodgers go into next season without a shortstop if they're not able to consummate a Boba Shedd deal. But that's the team that is like, man, you got them, especially if it's like, don't win a world series this year. You've got for bid, which is like kind of their MO to look like that absolute juggernaut during the regular season, one that's not COVID affected, and then flame out in the postseason. If the pressure's on them after this season from Shohei Otani and Mookie Bats and Freddy Freeman, and they don't win, like the pressure that would be on that team this offseason to improve itself and what they might give up in a Boba Shedd trade could be intriguing. Well, the other way you get your haul is if you have the Luis Castillo of the deadline, the pitcher with a couple of runs left in them, and that's your Kevin Gosman that could be Chris Bassett, if somebody's interested there, you know, not going to be Jose Burias, I don't think. Not that badam. Couple ways to go about it if you're the chase. No more white socks, but you get three more against the pirates coming up. No Paul Skeens. That's good stuff. All right. We'll be back tomorrow with another edition of the fan morning show Van Anis, Brent Gunning, Sportsnet 598er fan. Good morning. (upbeat music) [MUSIC PLAYING]
