(upbeat music) - Welcome to "Wallowing in the Shallows," the podcast that skirts the perilous drop off of a deep dive into television and movies. We are academic nerds aspiring to become TV and movie geeks. There are no spoiler cards in the shallows, so listen at your own risk. This week, join us for a while and a Buffy the Vampire Slayer, season two, rewatch. (upbeat music) - Hey, hello, peeps. Welcome to "Wallowing in the Shallows," this is Tori. - And this is Rebecca. And today we are talking about Buffy the Vampire Slayer, season two, episodes 21 and 22, becoming part one and part two, the last two episodes of season two. - I can't believe we're at the end of season two already. - Very exciting. - Yeah, these episodes are, they've just been always really interesting to me, particularly I think because we get so much backstory on Angel and of course in the course of that, we hear about, or we learn about Drew. - Mm-hmm. - So, hmm. - Yes, I loved the Drew backstory stuff for sure. - I'm sorry, but it seemed like Angel was kind of a jerk before he became a vampire as well. (laughing) - Yeah, Darl is back. - Yes. - You know what? - That was interesting. - Yeah, it would've been interesting, really kind of cool if the costume department had put her in a pink gown. Remember from the Halloween episode, when Buffy and Willow were looking at the Watchers diary and there was that drawing of that 18th century woman? - Oh my gosh. - I was like, oh, she would've been in a pink gown and that could've almost been Darla, you know. - Deep cut. - Yeah, but they didn't, (laughing) unless that was the pale, pale, pale, pink. It looked kind of white to me, but. - Yeah, some very, some very cool stuff. I did like these two episodes. I must admit that and, spoilers for the future, though, if you've watched anything. You know, you feel like you lose Angel at the end. And again, he has his own series. So this can't be the end, but I could see how you could think it would be. I mean, this did look, this things look bad, things look real bad. - Yeah, yeah, and we didn't know about the series, Angel at this time, they hadn't really announced it yet. So it was a big shock. - Yes, yes. Now, of course, I'm also, you know, I know this is the very end and I'm jumping right to it, but oh my gosh, so Willow succeeds with putting the curse back on him, just in time for Buffy to feel terrible about killing him. And, but getting a moment of having him back, but a little too late because a kulfa, what was his name? - A catla. - A catla was already revving up with this Hoover steam cleaner. And so she needed to do the blood thing. But then I was also like, well, this is the same curse. So once again, if he has another moment of bliss, we're right back to where he started. So I just, so, you know, I'm thinking that he's gonna get his issues sorted on the other side here and make his grand return. (laughs) - Well, it'll be interesting for you to see, I mean, 'cause you already know he has to return, right? Because he's got his own show. So it'll be interesting to see what you, what you think about how they bring him back. - Yeah, yeah. Well, some things got to change because this whole keeping him cursed thing, I don't know. It doesn't seem to be a permanent solution. So yeah, so I'll stay tuned. (laughs) - Yes, and I do have, I don't know if I should bring it up now. I had a question about the ending where she stabs him. And I've been trying to remember all afternoon. And of course, since I was working, I didn't really have time to go check it out. But I don't remember Whistler saying that Angel had to die just that his blood was needed. - Blood? - So why didn't she just take some of his blood, right? And like smear it on the demon because it didn't take that much. - Well, I suppose when to unleash it. - Right. - Well, I suppose when the whole universe is at stake, you just wanna hedge your bets and it did work. It sure worked. - It did, it did, it did. Yeah, anyways, I don't know that, it never really occurred to me before. And I was like, "Huh, I wonder." - Mm-hmm. - Ah, wah, wah, wah, wonder. (laughs) - Okay. - So what we could maybe go a little bit earlier than the very last moments of the second episode, but I know it was my fault that jumped me right to it. But starting at the beginning of episode 21, and I did elude to this, I mean, granted Angel is drunk, but he doesn't seem like the greatest chap ever even before the curse seems a bit like a chauvinist and obviously he's drinking, I don't know, real stereotypical stereotypical. I don't know that we knew he was Irish before this episode. And I was just like, "Oh, yeah." You had to make him a drunk Irishman, didn't you? So anyway. - Yeah, well, you know, I didn't pick up on this before and I think the only reason I picked up on it this time is because I had mentioned a little bit of the history of the Clotoring in an earlier episode. - Yes. - And that's from Galway, right? That ring came from Galway. - Oh, that's right. - And so I was like, "Oh, hey, Angel's from Galway now." That kind of even makes more sense as to why he was so into the Clotoring. - Yes, it does. That's a good connection. Thank you for that. We even saw that in these episode one or episode two here. - Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but he's just a real loser. - Yeah, see, it's a real loser. - He's plotting to steal from his own father. - Yeah, yeah. - Just doesn't care that his friend passes out in the street. I mean, a horse and carriage could come and run him over. - A real reprobate. - Yeah, yeah. And the way he swaggers and kind of almost is gloating a little bit about how he doesn't like to do an honest day's work, so. - Yeah, don't like him, you don't feel like, yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's almost, I'm trying to decide if I actually like Angel. - Oh, yeah, yeah. And I might slip up, so I'm just gonna say this now. There's a later episode where we actually find out his name was Liam. - Okay. - And so if I slip and say Liam, you'll know what I'm talking about. But there's, oh God, that'll give something away too. I can't say that. Okay, nevermind. - Okay, then we'll just say Liam isn't giving away anything. They could have said that in this episode and I might not have remembered it. So that's fine. We can call him Liam prior to his vampurification. - Yeah, and you know, since he was such a reprobrate, which is a good word, reprobrate, did I say reprobrate? - You did, but I didn't- - You were talking about reprobate. Then, you know, it wasn't a big fall for him to become. People, Angelus. - Yep. - So, anyhow. And again, I had to ask, moving away from the Galway scene to Buffy killing vampires in the cemetery in Angel or Angelus lurking about. Why didn't she sense him? - Great question. - And I know I've brought that up before. I just find it really, really odd that she never seems to sense Angelus when he's around. - But apparently she senses floppy disks. (laughing) - Deja vu. But, and why the hell would she have Xander? I mean, Xander's not gonna be any help, come on. - How many times between him and Giles, they both should probably have some type of brain damage, you know, by the number of times they've been knocked out. - Yes, concussion, our cumulative damage is real. And listen, how does she not have a car? All of this would have really been much more efficient if she didn't have to walk everywhere in Sunnydale. - I wrote that down later on. And I'm like, she really does need a car, but she's ever licensed, so she'll have a car. - Something to strive for. - Yes, yes, yes. - Oh, this is back, which I was thrilled to see. - Excellent. - And I love, again, well, we're doing these two episodes, so I don't care if we jump around a little bit. - I was so glad when Xander said, "I love you," that Willow thought it was Oz, you know, that it wasn't all confusing and whatever. She just thought it was Oz and Xander moved on, and I know Xander does love her as a friend and all of this, and so that's, everything's good about it, but I was just so glad we didn't get sucked back into the Willow-O-Gaga over Xander thing, that she thought it was Oz, then Oz was there, and it's all good. - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. It would've been a very different season if he had said that earlier, you know, when they were hanging out the previous summer, right? It would've been a very different season. - Yeah, but I loved seeing Oz, and this is not her. - This is no norgy people. (laughing) - He's such a little troll, which I think is what Buffy calls him later, right? - She sure does, and I'm just not quite clear, because clearly, Snider is kind of in cahoots with other people who know what's going on, but are they trying to cover it up? - I don't quite understand Snider's purpose, you know? - Right. - He clearly wants to keep the secret of the Hellmouth, but to what end exactly, and why is he so anti this power that is also trying to protect the Hellmouth? You know, I just don't quite understand his role. - Well, okay, I'm not gonna say anything. - Okay, good, good. Okay, we'll get there, but we had a little more revelation. I felt in that episode, we'll get there. Shall we talk about Drew? - Sure, let's talk about Drew Silla. - Yes, so now one of my favorite revelations was that she had the sight when she was alive, because we have had illusions to that over and over again. Her sensing things were coming, all of this sort of thing, and she had that when she was alive, and she was afraid she was cursed, and Angel was a big dick and told her she was damned. I just can't stand him. But yeah, so it totally, I loved that groundwork that she was prescient. - Yes, yeah, and clearly that they ignore the lore about vampires not being able to go into holy places. - Clearly. - As Angel or Angelus is in the confessional killing the priest when Drew comes in. - Yes. - But yeah, and he starts in on her, he starts mind fucking her right away. - Oh, right away, right away. You really had to feel for her. - Yeah, yeah. She didn't, I wonder, you know, 'cause they don't really say if she hadn't had the sight if he would've bothered with that or if it was because of that that he really went after her. - Was so taken with her, yeah. - Yeah. - I am so done with the Drew Spike Angel Thrupple, I can hardly stand it. So I'm glad it's over. You just, I just can't stand it. - Yeah, it was old and I'm still not sure 100% whether he, Angel still was interested in Drew or if he was really just trying to mess with Spike. I kind of lean towards the latter. - Totally, because I don't feel like Angelus has any real feeling at all. It's interesting because we do see a real devotion of Spike to Drew Silla at his own peril, right? And he's willing to endure a great deal. But Angelus, I just think he toys with both of them, I just don't think he, and we've heard just what a horrible, vicious vampire he has been, I just think he is evil. And Spike definitely is out for number one, right? I mean, hey, I don't wanna have the whole world destroyed. I kind of like this world. I got a good gig going on here. So I hate what Angelus is doing and clearly he enjoys time with Drew Silla. I don't know if we can call it love, but he's definitely connected to her and he was not the one that destroyed her family. He found her sometime after. So it's an interesting, we've always seen him sort of like, okay, if I don't have the upper hand, I'm out. He's very protective of himself, but it was very interesting to see that allying with Buffy was in his best interest in this episode. And he was okay with parading about as human briefly until Joyce found out because they got attacked by vampires right in front of her. So there's some interesting stuff about Spike in this episode as well. I guess is what I'm saying. Yeah, Spike's totally out for number one. And I don't think he's really necessarily thought it through all the way, like how is Drew gonna react when he goes after Angel? And then of course, I wonder if it ever crossed his mind that he would have to knock her out. Right. And what would happen after that, right? So it would be interesting to see what does happen. And you know, I think Angelus is cruel. He is cruel, he's sadistic, he's twisted. I think Spike is very hedonistic, but I don't think he's out for torturing people. He wants to have a good time and live easy and have fun. I don't see the cruelty. I see more cruelty in Driscilla than I see in Spike. But Driscillas is probably earned from being tortured by Angelus. Yeah, yeah. You know, an interesting thing. Because I've always wondered what, since you mentioned Spike's like. I like this world. You've got dog racing, Manchester United, and you've got people, billions of people walking around like happy meals with legs. And it doesn't, it never made sense to me. Like why would Angelus suddenly want to end the world? Because what will they do then? They rely on humans. And of course, we don't know what that hell dimension is necessarily going to be like, but it never really made sense to me. And so again, myth and metaphor book, that guy said at no point in the whole season after Angel gets changed, does he talk about ending the world? Until he says he feels violated after the, if I only have eyes for you episode. And so that guy was kind of wondering if that's what made Angelus want to destroy the world now. - Interesting. - Yeah. And I was like, with that, kind of makes sense. Because he's just petty enough to want to do something like that. And evil enough. - Yes, and I find Angel in this form, kind of an agent of chaos as well. - Power and preciousness, you know, and just whatever, you know, following the moment, and I think he feels powerful with, I don't quite understand why his blood is so key. I mean, we hear from Whistler, he's the key. - Right. - Why is he, I guess for lack of a better phrase, why is he so special? You know, why is he of all the vampires the one, he who so ever the stone from this, the sword from this stone, why is he the chosen one? - Whistler. - Why is he the guardian? - Yeah. - Yeah, I guess I hadn't really thought about that, but that, I mean, is there some, there must have been some prophecy about it that we don't know about, but you think they would have mentioned that at least. I don't know, I don't know, yeah, why? And why then would you send Angel to that area if you knew Akathla was buried there? - Yeah. - Which, yeah, a lot of that didn't make sense to me, but they just happened to find Akathla at the right time. - Yes, perfect timing. - And can I please just mention? - Please do. - You cannot carbon date stone. (laughs) - Not living. - Not living. - Never was alive, I guess, I mean. - So, unless there was some organic, and this could totally be the case, if there was some kind of organic material like stuck in the crevices and stuff, perhaps you could date that, but you can't date stone. - And that could have happened later, right? - Pardon me? - And something growing on it could have happened later. - Yeah, and all you'd be able to say is it has to be at least this old. - At least that old. - Right, for it to have accumulated in the crevices. So, yeah, it would have been better if they would have said, oh, we send it off for, I mean, there are some things like volcanic stone you can date. Anyways. - See, people, these are the kinds of hard-hitting facts that you come to wallowing in the shelves for. I mean, this is where you're gonna get this gold about dating organic and energetic organic matter. - All right, I'm off. I'm off. - No, I meant it sincerely. That's really cool. And that is the nature of radiocarbon dating. - Yeah, it has to be organic. - So, the disc has been found. The curse that calendar used AI, so cleverly to create, to reconstruct, I mean, has been recovered. And Willow thinks she can do it. - Yeah, yeah. - And does, and she does. She does do it after having a real exorcist moment where it looks like she's been possessed as she's speaking Latin, so that doesn't bode well. - Well, Giles even kind of gives us a clue that that's coming when he talks about channeling that kind of dark magic, and that he didn't think she was ready for that kind of thing. - Because, and again, I have an innate problem with this. How, let's, I like the Angelus Angel difference. How Angelus transformed into Angel was a curse for him to suffer. We're giving you your soul back, so you can, and you'll know the terrible things you've done. And so, in order to get Angel back in these episodes, they need to curse him again, and something feels real messed up about that. - What do you mean? I guess I don't understand. - Well, maybe the evil that is out, Angelus just does need to be ended. If that is what he is, own natural, I mean, he's dead, right? And so, I guess this curse brings Angel's limbs, soul back, but he's been roaming the earth for hundreds of years, you know? Maybe he just needs to be put to rest, as it seems to be at the end of these episodes. Should he really just be cursed to walk the earth as sort of this half vampire, half human who can't really ever experience joy, or he's going to go back to his vampiric state again? It's problematic. - Mm, yeah. Yeah, so why would Buffy and Willow be so, well, and I don't even want to say that Buffy was really hept on doing it, bringing his soul back, because why would she want him to suffer? - Mm-hmm. - Willow, I think was just kind of-- - Go ahead. - I was just gonna say, I think, you know, Willow is more like drunk on the possibility of being able to do this magic. - Yes. - And so, she's not really thinking about what Angel's still gonna be suffering, but Buffy, yeah. - Interesting. - Yes, and we didn't get to this part, because we saw it took a little time for Angel when he got cursed by the gypsies. It took a little time for him to realize all the terrible things he'd done. So, in these episodes, he didn't have a chance to remember everything. He killed calendar. You know, he has a whole, and he did horrible things to Buffy. He is gonna have a whole new set of horrible memories of things he did while he was soulless. So, right, yeah, that's fantastic. - Yeah, yeah, I never really thought about that. Why would she, I mean, I know Xander accuses her of just wanting her boyfriend back. - And I understand that. I mean, she did lose, she did lose him, but it was always sort of a challenge, right? The vampire and the vampire slayer and all of this. And again, they can't have the same relationship as they had before because of the danger of him experiencing. If it's the same exact curse, then if he experiences pure bliss once again, he's gonna go right back and be just as horrible as he ever was. - Right, right. - They didn't change the curse to fix that. - No, no, they didn't. Although, it didn't sound the same when Willow did it as when the old Romani woman did it. - Right. - I thought about this after I rewatched it, I thought I really should go back and kind of look at those as side by side as possible, you know? But I didn't. - But I mean, are we to believe that we've been not given any information that calendar modified the curse to make it better? - Right. - Or that Willow knew enough to improvise to take out that caveat. You know, we were led to believe the same curse was reconstructed. Stone of fuselage or whatever as well, you know, included, we're just gonna recreate what calendars ancestors did to curse in the first time. - Yeah. And you know, and thinking of it now that you know, you really got me thinking here, was Jenny just trying to recreate it to pacify her land because, you know, she says to her uncle, you know, we're all fools here. And so to keep on this, I mean, Grudge seems like a trivial term, but that's what it is. - A real deep, deep grudge. - Yeah. - Vendetta, almost. - Yeah, Vendetta, that's better. - Generational vendetta. - Right. - I mean, in that episode where Jenny's talking with uncle, Enya, I think his name is, or no, that's the musician. (laughs) Enya. (laughs) I can't remember the guy's name. - But Vincent Chiavelli, I remember, is the actor's name. In that episode, it almost sounds like she's like, we're all idiots, right? Why are we continuing this? And then she recreates the curse to recurse, and so is that just the guilt that she feels for not telling Buffy or Giles about what could potentially happen? - It's, it's really, it's really a good question. I mean, yeah, it seems like the end of the vendetta should be ending his life. I just, I don't quite, yeah. So he has his great joyful moment, and then what happens, he goes back to becoming a monster. - Yeah. - So I guess he was tortured with, and you know, we do see as he meets Whis, wait. - Whisler. - Yeah, Whisler. - I quite call him Whisper. When he meets Whisler, it's like, okay, I wanna have a purpose, I wanna do good, I wanna try to make up for some of the things I've done. So he kind of becomes this agent of good, right? - Mm-hmm. - But boy, if he has a joyful moment, it's just such a dangerous game, this curse that he could just quickly go back to being a horrifying monster. - Yeah. - Again. - Yeah. - So yes, he had a couple hundred years of torture, but then, I don't know, this monstrosity returns. - Yeah. So now I'm also thinking, and I was gonna bring this up when we talked about the fight that the gang had in the library, where Xander's like, you know, angel has to die, you're all crazy people, yadda yadda yadda, and as I was kind of pondering the episodes, I was like, I wonder, this almost seems like a capital punishment kind of debate going on, right? You kill somebody who is killing somebody, or do you let them live and suffer in prison? And so angel has kind of been in this mental prison, right, where he's had to relive over and over and over all the havoc and evil deeds that he's done. So, yeah, so now I'm thinking about that. - Okay, I like what you're saying. - Yeah, keeping angel alive would be his punishment again, which is what this is that in the first place, or the Romani did in the first place. - I'm with you to a certain point, because the thing is somebody's life in prison, it's sort of like unlikely they're gonna suddenly escape. And angel we discover does have this loophole of suddenly escaping and being able to wreck all this havoc suddenly again. So there's sort of like more risk to society than with somebody being imprisoned for life. Do you know what I mean? - Yeah, I understand what you're saying. - Yeah, but I do hear the parallel and I think it is apt, but I do think the stakes are higher. I think the stakes are higher here. And my gosh, we've seen what happened when he got freed and he just boy, he went right to it. And he's not human, right? So that's the other thing. There is no, as soon as he's lost his soul, all that rehabilitation is moot because his soul is gone again. - Right. - So, oh, yeah, I'm rarely with Zander, but it just, I guess I just, you know, is it ever a good result if the answer is to curse somebody with dark magic? (both laughing) If it was some sort of benediction, some sort of blessing, you know, if it was a different thing that restored his humanity, you know, but I guess my problem is it's the same exact thing that was done to him hundreds of years ago. - Right. - I don't know, no, I'm, yeah, I'm confused. - Well, it all ends up for not because he's only back to being himself long enough for Buffy to feel incredibly guilty about sending him to hell. - Right, right. Well, you know, guilt keeps hitting. - Yeah, and now, I mean, it's a perfect ending for the season where at the beginning, she's still not sure about being the slayer, but she totally accepts it now. - Yes. - You know, she's willing to make the sacrifice. So it's good ending. It's good art. It's good art this season. - It is, it is, and honestly, if the series had ended there, it was satisfying. - You know, somebody else I was just reading said the exact same thing. - That would have been sad ending, but satisfying at the same time. - Yes, agreed. And definitely stuff still unresolved. You know, if a 16 year old just taken a bus out of sight to hell, but it was a, I mean, series have ended on much poorer notes than this. - Hello, Dallas. - So, and oh my gosh, I do not know how Joyce is written. For her to, I just, obviously, it's a huge shock, right? Then Mummy is a vampire slayer, and I admit that this is a lot to take in, but for Joyce to suddenly go to the rowing a glass to break against the wall and tell her, if you walk out of this house, don't even think about coming back. - You know, Joyce, I understand it's a lot to process, but she has seen hinky things for years, ever since they got there. I would have thought that some stuff would have been like, oh, a lot of stuff's making sense. - Like the whistle really? - Like Oz's reaction, right? Oh, it actually explains a lot of stuff. - Exactly, exactly. So, you know, I understand her wanting to call the police, all of this kind of thing, but just going to immediate anger toward Buffy again, I was just like, I don't know. You deserve to be left the dear John letter and Buffy is vanished, because that's exactly what she asked for. - Right, yeah, she didn't handle it well at all. Which shouldn't be a surprise, right? Because we have said quite a bit on Joyce's parenting skills. - And she came through the same exact way this time as well. - Yes, disappointing. - But I have to say one of my favorite scenes of all time is her and Spike in the living room. I mean, that is fantastic. - That is, have I been with you before? - You hit me with an axe one time. Remember, get the hell away from my daughter. - Yeah, you tried to kill me with an axe, you know. - Stay away from my daughter. - I really, I really love Spike in this whole episode. I love as soon as we saw he could walk again. I love how he maturely teamed up with Buffy. And he's like, let me just kill this guy. And Buffy's like, oh, okay, okay. I'll play by your rules. All right, all right, we'll do this thing. - Yeah, and I love he's just like, hello, QT. - What did he expect she was going to do when she starts wailing on him? - Yeah, yeah. - Hello. - So pour one out for Kendra. Once again, shows up and Buffy sidelines her, only for her to apparently be ended with a fingernail to the neck. - Yeah, another one of those super senseless deaths, right? And of course we just add that to the list since Angela's turned. But let me see if I can find this. Somebody said something about this and I thought it was very interesting. - Yeah, I was sorry to see her end. And honestly, both her, I guess there was a little bit with Whist's slur that he helped illuminate, but they kind of both seemed a little bit like red herring with both Kendra and Whist's slur. But anyway, go ahead. - Yeah, so again, this myth and metaphor book, which nobody will be surprised that I'm talking about. - Yes. - So he talks about Drew Killing Kendra is a metaphor for the last of Buffy's innocence being destroyed. Because he talks about Driscilla being a metaphor for Buffy's id, which I thought was interesting. And so here is the id, basically kind of killing Buffy a little, right? Because Kendra is a slayer as well. - Sure. - So the id is kind of taken over. - And we are reminded in this episode that Buffy has a little of this prescience as well. So it could line up that there are some similarities. Angel tortured Drew, Angel tortured Buffy. Interesting, interesting, some parallels. - It is, and it made me think, 'cause sometimes I don't remember the exact episodes and everything, but I kind of commented on the similarities. Like, and I even remember at one point going, are they connected somehow? But if we think about Driscilla as a metaphor for Buffy's id, then all that stuff I was questioning makes a whole lot of sense. Like, why I kind of sometimes thought they were dressed alike or they were showing up in each other's dreams and things like that. - Mm-hmm, they seem to have sort of a connection. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Interesting. And I certainly do feel like Driscilla has very id-like behavior, very, you know, when she gets lost in the moment of kissing Giles, I mean, just, you know, going on instinct, just whatever feels good, seeming to care about Spike, but happy to gallivant off with Angel. You know, not really thinking about any consequences or any feelings, just do what, do what I wanna do and hold my dolly and, you know, not very mature, right? We think of the id as not behaving very maturely. And childlike and sort of the negative connotation, not the positive one. - Right. - So, right. - Interesting. - Speaking of Drew and Giles, what did you think of the return of Jenny? - Oh. So I knew Giles wasn't gonna crack. And granted, he's sleep deprived and tortured and whatever else. - Mm-hmm. - But, come on, of course it's not her. She, I can't believe he fell for it. (laughing) But I think he was delirious. - Right, right. And I think it also is used to demonstrate Drew Silla's powers. - Yes. - So, and maybe make it a little more believable that she was able to entrench-- - Get some information out him. - Yeah. - Of course. - And I think it's able to kind of mesmerize and entrench Kendra. - Yes. - And thereby slitting her throat with what's been the sharpest fingernail in the history of the world. - Yes, and I loved, I loved how, when Xander shows up, Giles is like. - You're not real. You're not real. It's true. Inside my head, make me see things I want. Why would it make you see me? All right, let's go. - Yup, good point. - Yup. - It is, it is. - That was great. (laughing) - Oh, loved the callback to Giles using the stone of Thessala as a paperweight. When the scrieter at the store was like, I stole a bunch of these, this paperweights. I thought that was a clever little connection. - Yeah, they often do little throwbacks like that, which I think are kind of cool. - Mm-hmm. There was another one. There's a throwback here to the very first episode of the season when she was bad. And so again, myth and metaphor book. - Yes. - And remember, Buffy goes off. No, she's lured to the bronze. An angel goes with her. Supposedly Cordelia is gonna be there, but it's that vamp. That is Cordelia-esque a little bit. - Okay. - Do you remember the scene? - It's not a meeting, keep going. Just keep going, I'm sure it'll be okay. - So while Buffy and Angel are at the bronze where Buffy has been led by the vampires to go there, they cut back to the library and Giles is there with Willow and Xander. And he's reading a text and trying to interpret this prophecy, I guess. And he's like, "Oh, it is a trap," because they had been arguing, "You can't go to the bronze, it's a trap, it's a trap." - I remember that. - And so then Giles says, "It is a trap, it just isn't for her." And so then the vampires come right and they grab Willow and Giles 'cause they need those two for this ritual to bring the master back. And so-- - Right, okay. - In this episode, or these episodes, the first episode 21, right? Angel lures Buffy away this time. So he's-- - And says it's not about you, you always fall for it. - Fall for it, yeah. - Yes. - So he's using this information that he knew as Angel and he's using it against her. So he's really showing a level of cunning that we wouldn't necessarily have associated with Angel, but we can see it with Angelus. - Very, very, I hadn't made that connection. So I'm so glad you, I mean, it didn't surprise me that she before had run off and then the scooby, the rest of the scooby gang had gotten in trouble, but that's exactly it. - And she makes a huge mistake here, right? Instead of staying and fighting Angel or Angelus and taking that opportunity to kill him, he takes off back for the library and lets Angelus live again. - Yep, and you know, I do feel for her because she oscillates between, I mean, she is clearly the most powerful one and the one most likely to survive. And so she oscillates between letting the others help her and trying to go it alone in order to protect them. So I definitely empathize with that. What I don't empathize with exactly. I don't, well, and I'm troubled because why didn't she let Kendra help her? - Right. - But then I was kind of like, oh, no, good. Kendra is with the rest of them and can protect them. - Exactly. - And Kendra gets killed without a whole lot of effort, which that's what bothered me. As I was kind of like, it would have been nice for Kendra to have been, okay, I'm taking care of this front, you're taking care of that front and maybe Buffy made a mistake leaving Angel and coming back, but she had nothing to worry about because Kendra was back there taking care of them. So I don't know, I don't know, Kendra, this is why I say Kendra's role seemed pointless. Why was she even reintroduced? But to your point about sort of ending, the very last bit of Buffy's innocence and this image of a slayer being killed, to really put a fine point on it, a slayer is dead and that slayer is part of Buffy. So I guess symbolically, I guess plot wise doesn't make too much sense to me. Symbolically, okay, your guys got another good point. - Right, right. - Okay, what did you make of Whistler? And let me just preface this with, okay, another demon with a heart of gold, right? So we have Angel, a vampire who's turned to good or whatever, because of a curse, because of a curse. Get your head around that. And then we have this demon who is trying to do good. And we don't really have Whistler's backstory at this point. What did you make of all that? That he seemed to be trying to get Angel to help Buffy? It didn't all seem to get totally fleshed out. - I agree, it's not fleshed out at all. It doesn't really, but it almost made more sense if they would have had maybe like a rogue watcher. - Yeah. - You know, somebody who had really delved deep into their archives and was reading all this kind of papacy that was really obscure and then he, go ahead. - But wait, wait, wait, does he have to be a demon in order to understand more deeply how to stop a Catholic? - Hmm, maybe, I don't know. - Yeah, I just thought-- - 'Cause he knows what has to happen. - It was a nice angel. I mean, I liked him as an narrator for things that were going on. I liked that piece of it, but I don't think he was necessarily utilized enough. I was kind of with Buffy, right? When she confronts him in Giles' apartment and she's like, I'm tired of doing this myself. Why don't you get involved? And he's basically something to the effect that it's not his job or something like that. But yeah, it's odd. It's odd. Somebody was wondering, and again, I don't remember what page I was looking at. 'Cause again, I was the metaphor book, baby club, TV fanatic, my normal go-tos here. Somebody was talking about Whistler, saying he was underutilized, and then they were wondering, does what make any sense to you, but if he was supposed to maybe be this character in the angel series. And that, for whatever reason, it just didn't make the translation over to the angel series. And I was like, well, that I can almost buy into. Do you know the timeline of after what season the angel series started? Yes. Is this something I should not ask? Well, I can tell you, but it's up to you. Do you think it gives up a way if I do know? I don't need to know. Okay. Oh, let's wait on that. Okay. Let's wait on that. I guess maybe, do you think it'll be safe that when it does happen, you could tell me? If I remember. Okay, okay. I think when it is going to happen, yes, it will become clear. Okay. And I won't have to tell you. Okay, okay. So angel is not a whole series about angel in hell, but after he got booted to a Catholic's vortex of evil. Oh my gosh, that a Catholic. I had to laugh every time I saw that statuary. I was just like, oh my God, this demon statue is, and I thought he was going to come to life, but no, he just, just a tornado started coming out of his mouth. Yeah. Yeah, not one of their better creatures. Yeah. I wonder why they went that way. Maybe it was out of the season, they just didn't have the budget to do anything better. Interesting. (laughs) That's the only thing I can think of 'cause it's just really, it's not good. It's not Crane-Mantis-Ladybad, but it's not good. No, really agree. Yeah. Oh my gosh, you know, even if Cordelia disagrees with the plan, I mean, there's Willow with curse, invocation, take one, and Cordelia's smudged with sage or something. I mean, you know, she's got her job and she's gonna do it, even if she doesn't agree with the way they're going. So here's a trivia question for you. Oh, okay. Since we're kind of in the hospital. Yes. What is the name on Oz's shirt? Oh, geez, don't know. Larry. (laughs) Was this like a print on the T, or is that what you had before? No, it was he at the tag? Well, he had the T-shirt on, but then it, it almost looked like a bowling shirt. Oh. Over it and it had Larry on there. Oh, that's funny. Probably shopping at the Goodwill. Yeah. Yeah. You want a little recycling to using? So. You know, you brought up, sorry, this is going back a little bit to something you said earlier about Drew did hypnotize both Kendra and Giles. I don't know that we have seen her, we've definitely seen her premonitions before, but I don't know that we've seen this gnosis power before, have we? No, this is the first time we see it. Yeah, interesting. I mean, we knew she came back pretty powerful when she carried Spike off, you know. But she's got some untapped powers that she's starting to figure out. Well, she's holding her dolly. Yeah, well, I think vampires being able to hypnotize is part of the lore. It certainly is in what we do in the shadows. Which by the way, I did watch the first episode, I left my ass off. Good. Well, stick with it because, okay, if you had a better start than I did as I described, so yeah, I'm loving it. I don't know what happened that first time around, but I am in it and really enjoying it. And I just, I'm in season two now. And I just think the production value is starting to up a little bit and I just think they're great. I was trying to figure out, 'cause I don't know all the characters' names yet. Again, I've only seen one episode, but is that-- Not the idea. What's that? Oh, I was wondering if Jermaine Clement was one of the vampires. I don't know who that is. Flight of the Concordes. Oh. Yeah. You mean, in the very first episode, you mean one of the main three? Yes. The three are Nadia Lazlo and then kind of the main guy. I forget his name. Nadia and Lazlo are the married couple. And then there's the other guy who has the familiar. Is, I can't remember his name. Is Lazlo the one who's lost his power of mesmerizing people? They're all a little hit and miss with it. So I don't know the answer to that. All of them seem to do. I feel like Nadia does the best with the hypnotizing. I think Nadia is the most powerful vampire of the three of them, even though the other two postured quite a bit. Okay. But Lazlo, yeah. Well, you'll watch more than you'll know. Right. 'Cause in the first episode, it was Taika Wadditi was one of the vampires. Okay, I'm trying to remember the first episode because there's the three main ones that you're gonna see through us. So there might have been some ancillary vampires in the first episode that I'm not quite a man. Taika Wadditi definitely returns later, but I don't remember him being in the first episode, but I'm sure he was. Yes, it was 'cause he played Viago. Oh, yes. Okay, okay. Oh, it is Jermaine Clement. He plays of Lottislav. Those guys were both in the first episode. Yeah. 'Cause I remember them from like the seventh episode. They returned, but, huh, might have to watch the first episode again. Yeah, well, it looks like it might just be the first episode. Well, he's in one called The Trial. Yes, that's the one I really remember them from. Okay, okay. We're off. Totally, totally off. Let's skip it, let's skip back. I forgot we were recording a podcast about this. Sorry, I really got it. I really got it. We might need to do some sort of talk about what we do in the shadows though. Yeah, we could do that. Okay, so back to Buffy. Okay, I need to talk, okay. Here, toward the end of the first episode, we have the FBI chap. I'm gonna call him the FBI guy. I don't know what he's from. Talking to Snyder. (crickets chirping) FBI guy talking to Snyder. Where? Okay, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Is this the guy who? Okay, hold on, let me take. I made an assumption. So the guy who tells Buffy she's the slayer. She's been shoplifting and being a normal teenager. Blah, blah, blah. Oh, you guy. He's like a watcher. Did he also talk to Snyder in an earlier episode? About, oh, okay, okay. So he's just a watcher. Okay, then never mind about the FBI guy. I just, I'm going back to, I just don't understand Snyder. I don't know what his deal is. He clearly knows more than most of the rest of the town. And it was funny, there's some line where he goes, well, if you haven't noticed the police around here, pretty stupid. Yes. I actually quoted that line earlier in the season. I'm like, oh, you're ahead of yourself, Tori. Bring it back, bring it back. And what the hell? The cop just pulls out a gun and shoots at Buffy. Unbelievable. Yeah. Unbelievable. I mean, these are like Buffy's best friends. I just, all of this vitriol against Buffy. I just, have you looked at her? I mean, they don't know that she's, that she's this badass vampire slayer. I mean, she's sort of a slight 16 year old. They really think she ripped out somebody's throat and knocked over a bookcase and, you know, took out all of these people single-handedly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the only reason I can think of that they possibly have been thinking and shooting at her was that she took out an officer, right? She assaulted an officer. All right. They went right to thinking she was guilty when she was just checking on Kendra. Mm-hmm. I don't think that would have been the first reaction even though she was at a crime scene. Yeah. Yeah. She became suspicious when she took out the cop. I'll give you that. Well, you know, I'm Snyder doesn't help. Of course not. That's true. So since we are all over the place, I'm like, what have I not said? Yes. Did you notice? Did you notice? Yes. Yes. Buffy starts wearing Angel's cross again. Mm-hmm. Crosswatch. Yeah. Tori's been doing well with crosswatch. She is wearing it again. Interesting. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I haven't spent any time thinking about that in a deeper way, but I did notice she's wearing it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What else do I want? Yeah. What makes Angel so special? Very, very confused about why his blood was so important. Oh, speaking of blood. Yeah. And this happens all the time. Mm-hmm. If I had to extract blood for myself and create a wound, I sure as heck would not pick my palm. This is always what you see. Draw in there like with blood oaths and all this sort of stuff, drawing the knife across your palm. One, that is a bendy, bendy place. You can't put a band-aid in there. Your palms can get sweaty. I would rather have it be on the back of my hand than the palm of my hand. I... Every two of you. What's terrible wound? He did have to grab that sword, though, wouldn't that be the easiest way to get the blood on it? I guess you could smear it. Easily. Yeah. He did not need to draw it across his palm. And my problem is wider. This is where everybody seems to pick. I mean at least a finger. It's a finger prick for goodness sakes. The palm, a gash in your palm, not great, not a great place for a wound. Yeah. You hearing me? I'm hearing you. I'm hearing you. I'd be painful for a very long time and inhibit what you could do later. Exactly. Your hands. You touch. You know, why not your forearm or your thigh? Yeah. I mean just somewhere that you're not using to drive. Right. Right. To prepare your food. You know. Oh yeah. Ooh. Imagine getting some lemon juice in that. Oh, terrible spot. And just look at your palm right now. You just move your hands around and your palm folds. Your palm is one is one of the parts of your body that can completely fold over itself. Yeah. Terrible spot. Terrible spot. But of course he's a vampire so he heals immediately. So I guess it really doesn't matter for him. But again, bigger, bigger question, bigger question happens all the time. Whenever somebody's got to get blood for something, they always get their palm and it's just stupid. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Next more important item. I did really like when Angel and Drew and Spiker and what I was calling the castle layer and they've got the tomb back there now and Spikes like it's a big rock. I can't wait to tell my friends. They don't have a rock this big. Spikes a gem. Spikes. He is. And I couldn't remember other than Medusa, any demon that turns to stone. And Medusa only turns to stone when if she would see herself in a reflection. Which is what, what's his butt did? Perce? Yes. Hmm. Yeah. Somebody was asking me what a Kraken was on some of my travels recently. And I was like, oh, it's from mythology. Yeah. Release. They were like, yeah, release the Kraken and and Seattle now uses it as our hockey mascot. You know, when you went to the game, did they, did they use that line? Release the Kraken? Oh, yeah. Okay. Oh, yeah. And I got to tell you, they do this whole like holographic thing on the ice that looks like ocean waters and it's cool. It's cool. I need to go. Yeah. Oh, cool. Cool, cool, cool. Yeah. For sure. I'd go to another one. I've only been to one. Yeah. I had to ask, and again, another scene in the castle lair when Angel's trying to remove the sword and they've got that guy there, like a victim, right? Yes. They got him tied up. Yes. And Angel goes to kill him. And I was like, why does this guy have no shirt or shoes? What about no shoes, no shirt, no service kind of thing. Was it seemed gratuitous? It seemed gratuitous skin. Yes. I thought it was interesting in the New York scene, right, when Whistler recruits Angel. I thought some of the background sets were interesting choices, like when they go to the hot dog cart, which is in front of an adult video slash bookstore. And I was like, that's an interesting choice. Uh-huh. I didn't know if maybe that was an obscure reference to like the low leadiness of Angel and Buffy's relationship or if I'm reading too much into that or what. Wow. But I just thought it was a weird set for this particular show. And you didn't think it was just because Angel was sort of residing in a seedy part of town, well maybe. I mean, I like your interpretation better, but I don't, I don't know. And I guess goblins can eat human food. Demons? Sorry. He's not a goblin. He's a demon. He's a demon. Rebecca, get your, get your mythology straight. But you, but you know, then in the scene that follows almost immediately, right, we're at the high school and Buffy, Buffy is getting called and Angel's watching and, you know, creepy much. Yeah, exactly. And we learned that Buffy was a little bit of a clothill maniac prior to being called as the slayer. I hated that. And I mean, talk about low lead a moment. I mean, what, you know, trying to age Sarah Michelle Geller down by having her suck on a pop. Sick pop. What? Lollipop. Lollipop. I don't know. Sometimes the treatment, I mean, there was a lot of women getting hit full on in the face. And I don't know. Just sometimes I think there could have been a few more women's hands in the production of the show. And I think that maybe some, some things would have been a little smoother. I, you know, is that what all cool LA teenagers did in 1996 is shoplift and, you know, I don't know, and suck on lollipops. I don't know. It just seemed like, who, who is this teenager? And I thought they had her dressed more like a 10 or 12 year old. I mean, what was with those damn pants? I'm like, what the fuck? Yeah, they went too far. They did go too far. Talk about low lead. Yeah. That, that really did seem over much. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's not that many years ago. They really didn't have to do much to just other than give the date and say she's in LA to, you know, make her a little younger. I did like that they had. Longer hair, maybe. Yeah, definitely longer hair. But I liked that they actually brought Dean Butler back to at least do the voice of Hank. Hank Summers, right? When he enjoys our arguing. And but he's crying. I had realized it was the right name. Yeah. It was the right voice. Yeah, it was the right voice. So impressive. Impressive. Angel's like a peeping Tom lurking again. Yes. Yeah, I guess which episode was it with the first one when we meet Kendra and angels like I lurk. Like, dude, you're not lying, are you? You do lurk. Creep-a-zoid. I mean, I guess I hadn't realized when we had the introduction to Angel that he'd essentially been stalking her for two plus years. Yeah. That was weird. And when I was listening to Angel and Whistler, I haven't, you know, Angel's like, I want to help her. I want to become someone and everything. I had this thought because we wondered earlier in the season why Buffy didn't know she was going to be a slayer like Kendra did. And then I thought maybe that's why Whistler and Angel were sent to her to help her, you know, like maybe like by the powers that be to give her a leg up since she didn't begin her training at all until after she was called. Oh, but what the heck did they do for her other than skulking around and watching her? True. True. True. I did like Angel's line to Whistler though. Like, I want to learn from you, but I don't want to dress like you. Yeah. That's such a Josh Sweden line to inject a little levity into the drama. Yeah. So, yeah. Well, we're left at the end here with the gang all okay. Willow's going to recover, but we don't know what darkness remains there. They don't know what happened to Angel is Buffy off romping, having a good great old time or, you know, they like I didn't write this one down, but Oz was like, well, I guess the world didn't end because look around or hold or whatever. Yeah. Exactly. Oh, one last thing. Come on. This vehicle that the vampires are driving in to be able to drive during the day. Oh, yeah. I just don't buy it. So it gives you a chuckle, but I'm like, okay, how can it both be dark enough for them to not be touched by the sun, but yet they can see where they're going? Yeah. I wondered that myself. Not buying it. Yeah. Oh, crap, there's, oh, you know, I should brought this up when you were talking about Snyder and his associations with others in the town. When Buffy goes back to get the sword and Snyder's there and she's like, you never got a single date in high school. Did you? And he's like, your point being right, right, he totally cops to it. Yeah, maybe dude. If you had a date in high school and gotten laid, you wouldn't be so truly now. Yeah. And then he, he's got a cell phone and he makes that call and he's like, the mayor will be so pleased. Again, I just don't understand until he's clearly in cahoots with the mayor, but to what ends? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, you know, TV things to be answered. Yes. Yes. In the future. Red crumbs. Bread crumbs dropped. Yes. Yeah. Here's a bit of trivia for you. Okay. Sarah Michelle Geller and David Boreann has did a lot of that sword fighting themselves. Impressive. Mm-hmm. That was well done. I was kind of like, why are we doing this? But it was good. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. The only reason they did that, that is because we didn't thought, well, yes, of course they're going to have a sword fight. Mm. So that's it. Even though, you know, I got a thing to say. So we know a stake, a wooden stake would kill Angel. Mm-hmm. But he survived gunshots. Mm-hmm. This sword by no means, this sword wound, should not be fatal. The thing is, he got sucked into hell or whatever, the vortex to the other dimension that's demonic or whatever that is. But we don't really need to be worried that this wound was fatal. Mm-hmm. Just that he's trapped in another dimension. In a held dimension, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And just like you said, she just needed his blood. Yeah. So. Yeah. I'm still not sure about that. Did he both need, did they both need the blood and for him to be sucked into the demonic dimension? That, that's a question for another day. That's unclear. Yeah. So. All right. All right. Well, we're now in the season. So stay tuned for season three. Yes. We will continue. We definitely will continue. So I guess now all we have to say is, bye. Thanks for listening, everybody. [MUSIC] Wallowing in the shallows is created and produced by the both of us, edited by Mo. The soundtrack for the Wallowing in the shallows, Buffy the Vampire Slayer season two rewatched the show.
