Apologia Radio

481. Interacting with Toby Sumpter & Smash Mouth Incrementalism

Today we will be interacting with our dear friend and brother, Pastor Toby Sumpter, and his recent podcast titled "We're All Incrementalists". We love Pastor Toby and are incredibly grateful for him. We have some agreements and some disagreements with him on this topic, and are eager to explain why.

You can watch Toby's post here... https://apologiastudios.com/episode/aftershow-480-toby-sumpter/

Come join in the Aftershow! https://apologiastudios.com/shows/apologia-aftershow/

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Duration:: 1h 21m
Broadcast on:: 13 Jun 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

Non-rockabotas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it Are you gonna bark all day a little doggy, where are you gonna bite? Okay in your worldview I'm an animal you don't chastise chickens for being delusional You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay It doesn't really hurt I'm a big, big, big young up on them Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men lauding them for their courage Go into all the world and make disciples not go into the world and make buddies not to make roses Right don't go into the world and make cronies Disciples I got I got a bit of a jibil Nick Hahaha That's a joke pasta when we have the real message of truth. We cannot let somebody say their speaking truth when they're not Were there is no prophetic vision the people cast off restraint, but blessed is he? Who keeps the law? Proverbs 2918 one of my favorite verses and we're gonna discuss today why I chose that verse Just not yet But we will what's up everyone. Welcome back to another episode of apology radio Luke the bear hosting today Pastor Jeff just got back from Indianapolis at the SBC Conference where there was more treachery and Slithering like snakes going on by certain people and power. Yeah tough time for the SBC. We'll be talking about At some point. I'm sure but for now. You got me and you got little zeezers over here. Yes, sir. That's me little Caesars The memories man used to be five dollar pies You know I just ordered a bunch for our youth group this week and yeah the five dollar ones are now Like 750 or something so they're still relatively affordable, but which is in keeping with just about everything that you purchase for their money nowadays Especially here inflation is the highest in Arizona in the nation Food's about a third more everything the math. Are we number one? We were yeah, I don't know where we're at now, but We definitely were But yeah, food's about a third higher If you if you do the math on that so we've been feeling it Thank you sleepy Joe What the weather's inflating so is the So are the prices of goods and service. Yeah, it worked I'm hot right now. We had to turn the AC off and within five minutes. I was like well I'm already sweating the bears burning up again. Yeah, it's it's gonna be a Fun one day. I'm on what's supposed to be like 110 today. I think something like that. Just another beautiful Arizona. Yeah So what's up everyone excited for today's show I'll talk about that here in a second But first I want to thank our sponsors as always so I got you got your net patch on today I don't have it on today. No, I got mine. I on layer. You can go to iron layer calm Put apology and then keep on code guess we discount. We love them. They're they're amazing. They're products amazing they've been fantastic partners with us. So thank you iron layer and Of course, well, I'll save some of those for later We got our pre-sept coffee Which you can get it Gotta do that one before the end of the show because it's pre You can find that shop that apology is to do is like I'm in the shirts I wore the shirt today on purpose as well because the coastlands do wait for his law It's which we may also discuss today and you get one of these amazing tracks Right there. We got to our Don't murder your baby track. We got hope for tomorrow, which is a track for suicide We got the gospel for Mormons good news of God general Gospel tracked and then a sex tracked For handing out at the strip clubs outside of the strip clubs. Yes, not inside not inside so Yeah, check out some of that stuff. We've been putting up a lot of cool shirts and merch and stuff I'm excited about so then we put up some more here soon as well Actually, this hat I just got in we're gonna have these up. They're not up yet But they will be up soon probably tomorrow hopefully but anyways, let's let's just get right into this conversation here And I'm running everything today, and I forgot to do my timer. So forgive me Let's just get right into this so We're gonna be interacting and I was careful how to word it because I don't want to be like Like we're coming at Toby because we love Toby Toby's my guy He's one of my favorite dudes in the world and he's been such a blessing to me personally in my own ministry And I know to our church and stuff and I love that guy a ton and so I don't want to be coming at him But I want to interact with it because there's some good stuff Some really good stuff that I agree with wholeheartedly and there's some stuff that we want to want to address as well so he did a Recent podcast his podcast. He does this called heavy two legs, which is really good. I really like it He's had a lot of really good stuff to say But he did one called we're we're all incrementalists, so we're gonna just kind of play through that interact with some of that But before we do that I just want to say this because You know he he proclaims to be a smash while the incremental switch he's gonna explain and I want to say They are not our enemies Those the men especially up in Moscow that are that are holding to this position. They are not our enemies there are plenty of people in the abolitionist camp that treat them like they are our enemies and Have even come after us and our friends who are like-minded saying we're compromises for Working with them and being friendly with them and stuff. That's nonsense. That needs it to be shut down and knocked off They are very much in support of equal protection of abolitionist bills Immediatist as it always describes describes our camp They're very much in support of what we're doing. They're not against what we're doing They are just where we differ is that they're for basically all of the bills all the plays They're they want to run all of them But they are not our enemies and we did not treat them like they are enemies We need to treat them like they are our brothers whom we love and not so discord with them So I just want to say that off the bat So Toby if you happen to see his brother, I love you very much appreciate you and I'm just hopeful and and prayerful that this is a helpful show The only thing I would add in addition to that is I don't question pastor Toby or anyone in Moscow's commitments to uphold and protect the sanctity of human life. Yeah, I Do believe that as far as this issue goes. He's incorrect. He's wrong on it but that's where we're seeking to Interact and with what he's written and posted publicly. I know he's had a public discussion even recently on this Yeah, did you watch that? I did. Yeah, it was You know a little bit of what I expected on on both sides I think it's a good opportunity for each position to be interacted with and the process of Iron sharpening iron. It's beneficial to see it laid out You know to see I think what was interesting about that is you have both sides Seeking to have the same foundation in terms of attacking Your problem of child sacrifice and everyone is claiming to base their strategy on the Bible The Word of God is the third one and that's most of all what I appreciated even if I would differ with Toby's interpretive aspect of taking certain passages in the New Testament for example on the issue of divorce and polygamy and Using that as an interpretive mechanism to extrapolate that principle and say well That should form the basis of our public policy as it relates to the murder of the preborn. Mm-hmm. So Toby's method on this or his position at least how he presented it is God Regulated certain practices in the older testament and because he did that because You know, he didn't just do away with it and one fell swoop. He actually made provision for it to continue with certain things being put in place to take care of The victims right the the women and the children in particular in these situations Therefore Christians today in the modern day have a basis for Someone to say I'm gonna support this bill A lesser measure than equal protection something like a 20-week ban or a heartbeat bill or what have you if it allows me to gain a hearing before the court system and present a solid Christian defense of the sanctity of human life now I have qualms about that Procedure in terms of the strategy behind it, right? So we're gonna stand by side this because it's gonna give us the opportunity to present the Christian position I think there's a consistency issue there which You know, I hope to to finalize writing something about this But I just want to kind of give everyone an idea of where he's coming from. Mm-hmm. He wants to have a biblical case on this I think it's better to rather than just extrapolate a Principle and try to use that as an interpretive mechanism and apply to this issue that God never regulates Really, you know, the murder of children in the womb. I think the abolitionist position is We're taking we're trying to take the plain meaning of scripture, right? What does it say? What's the command and we're trying to apply it directly to the practice of abortion God says you shall not murder Stop doing it completely right now, right? That's where we're coming from exactly and therein lies the distinction between our two positions And as we'll hear more from Toby in just a moment. He kind of lays out things that we agree with the same Things that our eyes have been open to yeah We would hope that he would press that harder in certain areas and we hope to interact with some of the things that he wrote in his blog as far as Christians being involved in a political process and What exactly a righteous law looks like yeah on this issue? Yeah, perfect All right, cool. Well, I'm just gonna get this going here Gabe if you want to pull this up I'll start playing if you want me to stop Just say something and we'll probably be wanting to stop at the same places anyway, so here we go Introduction we here in the Moscow mood have been celebrating and implementing a particular tactic for ending legal abortion in our land that we like to call Smashmouth incrementalism. This is a full-throated recognition of the humanity of pre-born babies from the moment of conception and the insistence that God's law provides equal protection for those human lives and so human laws should do the same Along with a deep commitment to embracing all of God's word for the wisdom tactics and principles necessary to do so in full obedience to Christ we just quickly yes and amen and Thank you Toby for using equal protection Yeah shows your you're listening. Yeah, I'm thankful to hear appreciate that Stand on the shoulders of our faithful pro-life fathers and mothers with deep gratitude for the way that they stood in the gap for Decades some of them sacrificing Significantly ultimately leading to the overturning of that bloody monstrosity row versus weighed at the same time We do not mind calling out some of the rot that has developed in the pro-life industry The suits and haircuts that show up at any relatively successful ministry in order to shrink wrap it and sell it creating various perverse incentives along the way It's one thing for a pro-life ministry to decline to be at the tip of the spear for some particular bill Different parts of the body of Christ with different strengths and tactics. It's another thing entirely to actively campaign against lawful attempts to end legal abortion Pro-life organizations that have actively teamed up with abortion supporters to kill bills of abolition should be ashamed of themselves Smash mouth incrementalist can we pause right there? Go ahead very thankful to hear that. It's obvious that pastor Toby has Seen the fatal flaw. It's obvious that he's been following the conversation closely enough To understand what we've said for quite some time and that's who the true opposition to this work is Of course you have the pro-abortion lobby fighting tooth and nail to and shrine these things even at the state level into our institutions as a fundamentally protected right you have all of the efforts that they have employed over a generation now to affect this issue over the past 50 years They're active of course, but in terms of actually putting a practical end to legal abortion as Toby puts it Outlawing the practice abolishing it whatever word you want to use the enemy Truly when it comes to What decides whether or not this type of righteous legislation sees the light of day and ultimately passes? the greatest barrier standing in the way of us realizing that has been those that he is Alluding to the suits and ties the pro-life establishment the pro-life industry the mainstream pro-life organizations and their national and state affiliates and their Heretical anti-Christian doctrine that is standing in the way of justice being established for pre-born children namely This idea that women who knowingly and intentionally take the lives of their child In whatever way and this is something you brought up even recently you made great points about this not just through Pills right but through potions and various other barbaric methods We have an entire Establishment an industry of people that believe that that woman who knowingly and intentionally does that is to have complete Civil and criminal immunity under the law. She has a fundamentally protected right to murder her child. That is their position We just saw you know Brent Leatherwood the lead ethicist for the ERLC at the SBC Maintain that position in so many words this is their stated position because they write and sign off on letters doing the very thing that Toby is outlining and that is Opposing our bills of equal protection the one that Brent Leatherwood and the ERLC signed off on was the Letter for Louisiana the bill that would have ended legal abortion there so I'm very very thankful to hear that Toby is affirming that something that we've said for a long time and You know there there's a recognition of that so yeah, absolutely Yeah, absolutely. Thank you Toby for that and I'll save some of my thoughts for Later part of this conversation, but yeah, I mean, it's the it's the pro-life industry that's stopping these bills and every state that we've worked in It's been the pro-life industry. It's not been the left wing the leftist. It's not been The socialist it's it's not been the Democrats It's been the pro-life industry that stopped every single one of these bills And so yeah, we'll get into that here further. I there's so many thoughts I have I'm trying to keep them organized here, so we'll keep going Smashmouth incrementalism is therefore happy to cheer on all lawful attempts to end legal abortion as quickly as possible in our land We support heartbeat bills and bills of complete abolition because a left jab to the gut is just as much part of the battle as a right hook to the jaw And wherever possible, we should run one or the other bill and not both at the same time Politicians will tend to take the less courageous route. That is true. The New York or California I doubt very much that they would conflict every opportunity to proclaim the full humanity of the unborn is to be celebrated We are incremental and that we believe it is biblically permissible to advance the cause of equal protection By passing laws that stop short of full justice for the unborn not because we're okay with injustice But because God's word allows for some regulation of immoral practices as steps towards Discouraging and limiting immoral practices. Can we stop there several biblically? Yeah, a lot of the something a good positive thing on the front end the other thing that he recognizes is the tendency of Politicians to always take the lesser measure that you put in front of them exactly so Even people that have been involved in this fight a lot longer than we have have said that for years when you give a politician an easy way out when you do not require them to go all the way and Demand complete abolition in this area. They will take the lesser measure every single time Yeah, because their primary interest is maintaining Their seat maintain their office and they're not about to commit political suicide and risk giving up their seat by doing something Controversial like making murder illegal for everyone right so I'm I just point that out to say Toby I'm grateful that you see that because that's the very thing that we've experienced. Yeah in this fight is You know politicians Will go so far We'll go as far as you allow them to go if we don't rain them in with the rule of law and hold them to the bills that we want them to pass and Really threaten to up end their political security if they don't do what we want You know, that's what they do. Yeah, we've seen this time and again with our politicians They will go so far as we let them if we don't hold them accountable if we don't rain them in You know with these things then then they'll do exactly that because At the end of the day, you know, I wish that they the majority of them actually cared About this and wanted to see it ended as bad as we did, but in our experience They're going to take that little nibble off the edge Instead of this other choice because then when it goes forward and it fails Which it virtually always does up to this point Then they can turn around to their constituency the people to put them off in office and they can say I did everything I could I checked the pro-life box I took this appropriate action that you wanted me to take and Darn we just didn't get it this time, but next time. Yeah, we'll come back and we'll get it. Mm-hmm but the the rule of politics as we are told by people that have been in politics for decades the fundamental rule is Of politics is make it look like you're doing something when you're not actually doing anything at all yeah, and I Mean we I think we had we were in 18 states this or we're in 18 states this year because there are some states that still are have stuff going on and the majority of the states not all of them, but the majority of those states where we've had of Strong Christians running our bills Faithful believers they believe in equal protection the majority of them when it came down to it Didn't act in every single time this year has been we can't afford to lose this election this year Because it's every single time and I've heard it time and time again and they say well, we'll do it next year I can't but we can't lose the election this year. We'll do it next year and it's the same thing over and over and over again Again, not all of them. We have some faithful ones like Zach Deacon. I've been talked to you and I with for example who's who's He you know, he didn't he didn't falter. He ran his bill and then there's some other Creative politicians have done the same, but yeah, but just I wanted to bolster your point You're making there. Yeah, and there's something else that could be said here, too I think in terms of framing this because he says we cheer on and support all lawful attempts Yeah to end legal abortion even if those things fall short of full justice on the way to equal protection on the way to total abolition and I would just maybe And I know that Toby has heard this in some measure, but maybe just back the car up and and drive by this again here I think there's a difference in category between a bill that falls short of establishing full justice and a bill that is inherently unjust So yes example excellent equal protection We believe we're convicted by the reality that it is a just step in the right direction Because it removes the inequity that exists currently in our legal system due to the pro-life laws creating an inequity Saying that mothers are exempt from any Responsibility when they take the lives of their preborn children. That's an inequity that needs to be rectified and that's what equal protection does is it makes murder a Crime that everyone is accountable for that. No one just has blanket immunity to commit But we realize that things like the justice system are woefully lacking in categories that provide full justice because Toby's a theonomist we love God's law He knows that there are entire categories that lead up to capital punishment, which is what you have to have in order to make justice in God's law that for for murder, right? I mean capital punishment is God's just prescription for a sanction for that given the evidence and the witnesses are there and the evidence and the witnesses on All those requirements those things are currently lacking in our legal system So equal protection while not perfect is a just step in the right direction even though it falls short of establishing full biblical justice That's one category because we know we got a lot of work to do on the back end right of making a just penal system Exactly on our pineology. There's a difference between that and a bill that does something explicitly That God commands us not to do so Deuteronomy chapter 1 God says to the judges you shall not show partiality and judgment These bills the pro-life bills virtually every single one of them the ones that Toby's mentioning the 20 week ban the heartbeat ban partial abortion, you know all of the bills of permission. Yeah, what we would call them every single one of those shows partiality and so the principle is within the law itself. There's an injustice That's different than what we're saying in that this bill while it falls short of biblical justice It is a just step in the right direction because it is removing that inequity that exists there I hope I hope that Toby hears that and We understand the difference. Yeah, no, I appreciate that I will probably get into this more later in this conversation But one thing that we've been trying the conversation we've been trying to push forward is not abolition versus incrementalism and he's gonna get into Why there's increments and stuff and and we would say yeah, there are just increments But the question is like you said is this a just law and that's what we've been trying to say is it is this morally Just law is this a partial law? That's the that for us is the argument and just just quickly before I move on There's I want to make a quick point and this will come up several times in in Toby's video He keeps mentioning liberal states like California, right and how our approach should kind of necessarily change I I get the point he's making I wouldn't agree, but I understand the point he's making but what I want to say is We don't even have anybody in those states putting bills at all you know We want to we want to argue from like what's actually happening And I feel like using those states as is an example to argue a Against what we're saying is like pulling something that's not really happening. It's kind of ethereal It's out here, but it's not even at this point I don't even see that even as like a reality or possibility and we want to What we're arguing from is experience and what is actually happening in Real life in real time all the states that we're working in that we're putting bills in our conservative states That it is possible to end abortion I'll write in those states, but it's not happening because of the pro-life movement because of the pro-life industry And that's what we're trying to to argue so I anyway So just a small point I just I wanted to say that now so as he's bringing this up later You can kind of hear that coming up. It's a good one I think he would gladly recognize well Yeah, if you have the opportunity and those legislators know better because they're professing Christians They're proposing pro-life then yeah, grab them by their Christianity. Yeah, and hold them to told them to their profess values That's what Toby would say But then he would say kind of over here if you have a state like California or New York where it's Lib City, baby And you're just trying to get your foot in the door to get a hearing Switch up your tactics a little bit because there's room for this kind of thing Yeah, there's room to get your voice heard if you propose this kind of bill instead because otherwise they won't even hear you right Whereas we would say well Still don't compromise. Yeah You know I we the standard doesn't change you know just because we don't get an opportunity to proclaim it right exactly right That's a great point. Okay, let's keep going Well examples of that in just a minute. We are smash mouth in the sense that we are committed to not resting until the laws of our States and nation provide equal protection for the unborn Thank you while we will celebrate minor victories along the way We are committed to working for the eradication of all laws that protect the murder of any unborn person for any reason in the midst of this conversation just quickly I would say because we get criticized because we absolutely praise God When there when there are those small victories and there are lives being saved We praise God for that one hundred percent, but again, the question is are those just laws are they partial laws? So I just want to make that quick point there station other brothers have responded by calling themselves Immediatists, I'm not identifying anyone in particular I've just seen the term bandied about and so what I want to do here is explain why basically everyone is an incrementalist of some sort and True or consistent Immediatism is either impossible or immoral and possibly both So the very purest form of Immediatism the immediate end of all abortion is not humanly possible because that would seem to require a Thanos-like snap of the fingers ending all human abortion in the world We're not God and we do not have that power speaking of which clearly God is an incrementalist. Okay, just quickly at that point to Agreed I agree with it in a sense. Yeah in a sense, but not I don't know anyone that's arguing that for that either it seems as if Passertobe might be hung up on this idea of if you are an Immediatist then that means that you are an overnettest as an abortion must be outlawed overnight and We don't maintain that position. Yeah, like we said there will be steps to get where we want to go necessarily because we are finite creatures And we exist within time and space and not only that we exist within a legal system that we are working To put these laws in place that we must follow through as he will go on to talk about in the article And we can interact with a little bit of his comments there, but Yes, Toby in in that sense We all make progress and we are going to make progress in this area. The question is Will our progress be pleasing to the Lord and how do we measure that? Yeah, how do we measure progress if if the goal is just well does it save lives? Okay, that's a measure of progress And we praise God when he does that of his own accord when he intervenes and when he allows innocent lives to be spared We praise him for that. Yeah, but the question is the duty of faithfulness and the obligation the moral obligation that we have to do justice Yeah, to write propose and Put just laws in place Right, the law is a didactic mechanism for teaching of course We're teaching the nations. What's righteous by the kinds of laws that we write and that's why if we gain a hearing before the world And we've written one thing in our laws and when we gain that hearing We're saying something different You know bonsen talks about this a lot. Don't lie to defend the truth. Mm-hmm If we're presuppositional in our approach here, we can't present one thing Abortion is murder abortion is homicide. It needs to be treated the same as any other case of homicide and the laws against homicide Need to be applied equally to all persons. That's what our law says Babies or human beings made in the image of God. Mm-hmm. That's what we're saying with our laws But if we gain our hearing before the world's courts and we I'm sorry if we put a law in place if we propose a law that says You know heartbeat heartbeat bill for example And then we gain our hearing and we're before the courts and we say well actually life begins at fertilization Then we've in a fashion lied With what we've written. Yeah, what we've written is contradict contradicting what we're saying Yeah, so what we write and what we say have to be consistent. Yeah, otherwise we're lying to defend the truth That's a great point. I hadn't even thought about that And yeah, Toby you're right God could do that if he wanted but he's chosen not to and we're not arguing saying That you know, we're not arguments and they are all abortion has ended all over the entire world at once like that's not possible You're right unless God did it And you know, you I would agree that there are even righteous increments in that in our state Our nation right we're a public. You know this we're a republic. We have to do this state by state That's how our nation is established and so those are righteous increments But the the thing we're arguing for is in each of these states that we're working in are the laws in each of these states Just are part are partial And so yeah, we are trying to do this state by state and you know, that's that's the goal But I want to say this to Going back to if God God's the one that's got to do this Agreed he has to change the hearts of men and that's it. We're seeing the issue again is with Conservatives the hearts of conservatives are the ones that are stopping this and that goes back to the verse I'll just a good good place to insert this is the verse I read the beginning probably starting 9/18 There's no there's no prophetic vision that people cast off restraint We agree 100% and every state that we're working in these bills that we're working to put into legislation Come with that prophetic vision with calling the people to repentance Pulling the standard. Yeah, exactly and we we rightly agree that this is only going to happen if that is the case And with God working through his people through the gospel through his law to change the hearts of men That's the only way it's gonna happen and they have to it has to be these laws have to be based on that principle Just one thing I would add to that just came to me. Um, maybe maybe this will help Toby Help you understand where we're coming from a little bit Agreed. God will bring these changes about incrementally But our duty is to hold up the standard And to not back off of that standard. Yeah, and God will change that slowly over time But we don't believe we are not of the conviction that he will change things by us not telling the truth Right by by lying right about this essentially if we're gonna tell the truth He's gonna change things in his time even with us not budging from our standard like he's gonna do it He's gonna bring it about It's gonna happen over a period of even years it could right take for this to happen At least that's how it was with the issue of slavery or that was abolished But I hope that helps with this. It's like yes, God will do this in steps and stages But what's our duty? Yeah, and the back end of that verse is But blessed to see who keeps the law and so we're saying that We cannot have a prophetic vision if we're not willing to uphold God's law in these bills, right? So if we're if we're champion champion impartial laws Right, we're saying well, you can you can murder your baby up until they have a heartbeat Or up to 15 weeks, which is now what's going on here in Arizona. You can murder those ones That's not a prophetic vision. That's an impartial Unjust vision that's not I'm sorry partial. Thank you Sorry, that's my timer that's a partial vision that's that's holding up only part of God's law and so We how do you expect to change the hearts of men if we're not even willing to stand on God's law and And proclaim that that vision to the people and I know he'll say this in just a moment, but He says and nobody none of us are saying and then you can kill the baby by these laws that we write Yeah, and unfortunately, I know that might not be what you intend, but that's the practical Reality yeah of what they do being bills of permission and we'll interact with that in a moment. Okay. Yeah, here we go We are 2000 years out from the resurrection and God is making slow but steady progress on putting all of his enemies Beneath his feet death will be the last enemy and then we'll come the end first Corinthians 15 But God is the only one who has the power to end all suffering and injustice immediately and is in his infinite wisdom He's chosen not to this is no excuse for apathy or laziness on our part But it does form the context in which we labor night and day for justice to be established We labor at his pleasure. We labor as his servants. Okay, just quickly Big picture. Yes. Oh, like we said only God has that power to do that And he has to change the hearts of men, but here's he please hear me on this brother. Here's the struggle we're having This is the crux. I think Every one of these states Again these conservative states that we've been working in that we have bills of equal protection in those legislators absolutely Have the power to end abortion in those states and the the conservatives the pro-life industry has chosen not to That's where we struggle because it's possible it's Completely possible and it should have happened in several states But because the pro-life industry has put a stop to them because of people like brent out lillerwood in the ear lc That's why this has not happened. They have the power to do it They could absolutely do it. They just refuse to do it. And I think I say this completely respectfully. I I really truly believe That if if you guys in in moscow with the moscow mood We're involved in this process In the legislative process with an equal protection bill in your own state if you sat through through the process met with the legislators And saw what's actually happening behind closed doors You would feel differently. I think you would see it and I get we probably sound like crazy people All the time saying this is what's going on? These are the it's the pro-life industry and people are going not I don't believe you that sounds ridiculous. That sounds crazy It is crazy, but it's happening and I think if you saw it if you witnessed it with your own eyes I think you would come away with a different perspective Let's do it. Okay. Sorry that was supposed to be a quick point The next most pure form of immediately would seem to require some kind of armed and violent uprising If abortion is murder, why don't immediately take that seriously and go to war? Incidentally, this is why I do not care for the name abolitionist though. I do not mind its technical meaning Of course we want to abolish abortion, but abolitionism has a sorted and violent past at least in america It connotes the abolitionist movement to end slavery and despite the laudable desire to see race based Chattel slavery ended that movement was radically infected by deeply anti-biblical sentiments and ultimately violence The bible addresses the evils of slavery and it outlines a distinctly christian means for ending it Violence and war not being one of the bibs. Sorry. I just was gonna say I agree with that agreed. Yep. Just keep going. I'm with. Yeah. Ascension means Linkin's invasion of the south and the subsequent 600 thousand lives lost was not biblical or constitutional Despite true evils that needed reforming There are several good answers to the question of why armed confrontation is not a biblical solution to abortion The most basic being that widespread commitment to murdering your own babies is not the kind of soul cancer that can be solved that way When faithful kings in israel sought to end child sacrifice They destroyed the pagan altars on which the children were offered we have a radical spiritual problem an idol problem The worship being offered in many of the christian churches in our land is corrupt and diseased The desire fear or in some demented cases delight that drives the killing of your own offspring Is a demonic psychopathic judgment that god has given us over two and therefore requires something far deeper than a military solution Repentance as we have already begun to see if you outlaw abortion in one place we have the kind of madness Spiritual madness that drives these people to other states where abortion is still legal or at least more easily accessible The bible. Okay. So it's pretty preach pastor. Yeah on all those things. Yes. Yes 100% and I would just say How was that accomplished? And it goes back to proverbs 29 18 with a prophetic vision and again We would say you can't have that prophetic vision if you're putting forth partial laws Also generally requires lesser magistrates to lead and conduct defensive wars And it generally prohibits guerrilla style vigilante justice Not to mention the massive tactical blunders involved Nothing like mafia or militia style assassinations of abortion doctors to set back the pro-life movement for another five decades Magistrates bear the sword of god's justice. It is their god-given responsibility to protect all human life within their jurisdictions They must be called upon to use their authority to protect the most vulnerable and to punish those who brazenly take it And that's what we're dealing agreed 100% and again. How does that happen with the prophetic vision? But I suspect that most media tests would agree with me on all of this to which I reply and welcome to incrementalism Obedience to god's law means we are required by god to take incremental steps and ending the atrocity of legal abortion in our land God requires incrementalism, but of course the immediately comes back and says sure I have no problem This is why I just don't think framing the discussion in this way is ultimately helpful or conducive to understanding And really getting to the heart of the matter. The issue is the laws themselves are they just or unjust That's I think that's what it comes down to because we're we're kind of like two ships passing in the night as far as this increments Discussion of as we made clear god is using increments And that's not to say that he's limited. That's to say that we're limited We're the finite ones here. God is not if he wanted to do this in the blink of an eye He could snap his fingers and it would be over. Mm-hmm. Okay, but there's a duty. There's an obligation There is a method in a procedure that we are to follow as christians and tobe's getting at the heart of that right now It's not just righteous laws. It's gospel proclamation. It's the prophetic vision upheld in law and gospel It's calling men and women to repentance for the sin that's in their heart It's calling our government Right our civil magistrates to repentance in terms of how they have protected this for years Every level of society is culpable in this sin and at some level Um, yeah, and that includes starting with ourselves. We need to repent for apathy or indifference towards this issue christians The church especially needs it needs to begin there, but what are we doing? He's outlining the strategy. It's just laws And gospel proclamation. We do need to change the culture As far as our family cultures our view of children the teaching of the church Our uh attitude and vision of human sexuality of marriage All of these things are are wrapped up in this and so yes, it is both It's a cultural issue that needs to change because people's hearts need to change so that they don't desire murder in their hearts anymore But I just think this discussion about Incrementalism is just unhelpful and helping us get to the bottom of this right agreed. I'm not even good at that It's perfect Problem with lawful incremental steps what I object to is the regulation of evil It's one thing to stand by waiting for god to give us the clear shot It's another thing to pass a law that says you can kill your baby so long as it's before six weeks or 12 weeks or after an ultrasound or something The immediately says he will not participate in that kind of compromise Now, let me be clear that I certainly appreciate the skepticism and scrutiny of pro-life motivations and measures I'm truly grateful for the pressure of the immediately tests a great deal of pro-life reluctance to ending abortion is a failure of nerve At the same time, I don't think the immediately test has solved the purity problem So you have your equal protection bill fully biblical as far as you can tell now what You get a sponsor for the bill and the sponsor agrees to introduce it in some legislative committee But look here. You are playing by immoral rules The murder of babies should end immediately and there are a million bureaucratic booby traps designed to bog your bill down in committees Now don't misunderstand me. I do not object at all. I believe this is the way to end abortion But you're playing by the rules of their immoral game They are saying that you must submit your bill in this way run the gauntlet of these bureaucratic shenanigans and maybe just maybe It will see the light of day on the floor of the full legislature So just just quickly and again, I think this would be helpful if you guys were involved in this process and closer in proximity. Yeah, I I would I would make I'm no expert in this but from my experience. I would argue that the process isn't necessarily the issue It's the hearts of the men that are operating the process Um, that's the issue and again that goes back to that prophetic vision It's just keeps coming back full circle and we can't expect these legislators to do the right thing if we're not Standing strong and calling them to repentance. Um, so again, I would argue. It's not the system It's self. It's I don't trust me There's definitely issues in this system, but a lot of it has to do with Because of the hearts of men because they're evil because they're sneaky and they're tricky And they just want power that that is the the main issue we're dealing with here. Yeah, I would agree. I think that This is demonstrably true Historically where we are as a nation the system of government that are forefathers bequeathed to us that they gave to us is actually Wonderful, it's a great System and it's never been easier anywhere else in the world than it is in our nation to change the law Yeah, we'll just put it that way it is a process and that process itself actually Has mechanisms of accountability built in for the politicians for us to actually put pressure on them so it's not just Their stated beliefs that we can use to put pressure on them It's the process itself that we can use to put pressure on them and career politicians and those involved in lobbying talk About this all the time our friends. Yeah, you know that this idea of Putting pressure on those in office to do what you want them to do to You know flyer their neighborhoods and they work for us and yeah and and make your voice heard in order to Let them know that you will make life very very difficult for them politically speaking if they don't do what you want um Now we can we can have a hand in that same process in terms of The bills going into committee needing to get a vote going to the floor for debate I don't think necessarily that the problem is there like you said it's the problem of the people within it that have political axes to grind and In fighting really about because in our experience, it's like no, I'm not going to pass this bill because I don't like so-and-so like I don't like the person that put it in and Those are things that that we can work Internally to counteract either by putting pressure on legislators or by running our own Campaigns and our own good upright men who will take their spot if they don't do what we want them to do So I would say I think the problem is is less in the system. That's as he put it is designed to defend bloodshed and the problem with Um, what our founders originally said and that's that the constitution is built for a moral and religious people Unfortunately, we no longer have that. Yeah Right and that's why we need a restoration and a recovery of Good men in public office. Yeah, and I hate to to keep being a dead horse here, but The the government works for us our legislators work for us and we forget that We've come to believe that they are the government's messiah Right that they were that they were doing things for our own good and in reality They're doing things for their own good and but we need to remind them that they work for us And again, this goes back to that prophetic vision. I think the the the church in our In our culture and our nation has gotten so far from that that we've we've forgotten that So if we're reminding them with that prophetic vision that they answer to god Um, you know, that's how we instill fear into them And uh, I was gonna say oh Just real quickly. We've seen this happen time and time again as far as this process is concerned Going back to the point I made earlier What happens when these bills go into committee nine times out of ten? The only time it didn't happen was Louisiana um And then our legislator are Got ambushed by the pro-life industry. Um, but what happens every time when they go to committee is Typically, I shouldn't say every time but typically whoever is in charge of that committee is being told by the pro-life industry Don't give this bill a hearing. So again, it's not the process. It's the people. It's the ones running the show It's their hearts are the issue and so they're literally stopping our bills most of time in committee Because of the pro-life industry and I know I keep saying this and I'm gonna keep saying it because that's what's happening But we're talking about the murder of babies and you're participating in ducking Spinning weaving and all manner of twister moves to get your bill to the floor of the legislature Now, I think there are very good reasons to do so and if I were to bring all of this to your attention Double checking to make sure you didn't actually agree with all of that bureaucratic red tape For example, you're not saying that it's okay to protect the murder of babies by these bureaucratic machinations Are you and you would simply say no, of course not But you're playing the legislative game And I assume you would say yes, that's what you have to do to get a bill passed Great and I would say the same thing about a heartbeat bill or 12 week ban in certain states While you may have a tidy category for the purity of your bill You're working in an entirely impure system built on the blood and bodies of millions of babies I denied that a heartbeat bill is necessarily any kind of compromise Anymore than working within the corrupt system designed to defend the bloodshed is approving of the corrupt system none of us are saying No, keep going. Okay. And then you can kill the baby now. Okay. I bring That was an important to to let him squeeze that last part in there. So again In regards to these two things being placed as parallel It's the same thing according to his argument that I'm wanting these bills that show partiality That do things. God says we may not do in terms of a court setting. Right? Leviticus 1915 You may show no injustice in court Right, you cannot defer to the the grade and so on and so forth. You can't show partiality These bills do that that is not the same As participating in the political process. I'm sorry. It's it's just not right um now His last remark is really important because he brings up the heartbeat bill or a heartbeat bill And, you know, Moscow has made public that they've supported things like this sba the big texas heartbeat bill that got passed and his contention is well, these bills are not saying that Fulfill this condition and then you can kill the baby. That's not what we're saying is according to You know his remarks there, but I found this interesting because if you Look at the texas legislature website. It talks about the heartbeat bill and here's what it says under sections 171 Point 203 and 171 point 204 of this law physicians must test for a fetal heartbeat before performing or inducing an abortion So what's that saying? In order for the position the physician to perform or induce the abortion There is a requirement. There's a condition that has to be met first. And what is that condition? They must test for a detectable heartbeat And then they can induce an abortion right in other words, and then they can kill the baby Carrying on a physician may proceed with performing an abortion once a fetal heartbeat is detected Only if they believe a medical emergency exists So if they determine If they measure if they surmise that a medical emergency exists Then they may fill in the blank. Yeah, kill the baby. Yeah, so again It might not be what you mean, but it's what they say It's the practical outworking of of these laws There are certain conditions that have to be met. This is the nature of of regulation. Yeah, you are Keeping it around, but you are Monitoring it to continue happening under certain circumstances So in the legal realm in terms of abortion whether we're talking about the kind of instruments that can be used The abortion is can only use These instruments and then he can perform the abortion The woman must satisfy this prior condition by meeting with a counselor 24 hours prior She has to have parental consent. She has to do all these things jump through these hoops That's regulation So it's not it's not untrue to say that these are regulative aspects because it's keeping abortion around as long as physicians abortion-minded women Check certain boxes, and then they may do the thing that they're wanting to do exactly Great point. I'm going to keep going because for sake of time here. I want to get through all this brief review We've used these examples before, but it's worth mentioning them again in biblical law We find that some regulation of immorality and injustice is designed to communicate disapproval and works to dismantle and discourage those practices It is simply not biblically accurate to assume that if there are regulations of a sinful or unjust practice That is somehow an implicit approval or participation in the iniquity For example slavery was regulated in scripture. God permitted the purchasing of chattel slaves Under certain conditions and for those same slaves to be part of the inheritance passed down to descendants Leviticus 25 44 to 46 Some folks might be tempted to conclude that this is therefore a good thing since it is regulated Others are tempted to explain it away since it is part of the israelite law code But I want to argue that this was a regulation among others That was actually designed to slowly eradicate man stealing and chattel slavery The New Testament repeatedly gives instructions to slaves and masters for their mutual respect and care fission 6 colossians 3 verse timothy 6 The fact that paul returned onissimus to philemon is pretty striking The regulation itself does not mean that if you meet the laws requirements God necessarily approves of what you're doing Civil permission all right is not let's stop it right there for a minute So and this is what he used in the debate to defend his position Okay, where these passages like this, but I think there's something to be said for this like when god does this with these practices He is um giving provision to protect victims Okay The victims of the injustice so the women the children so on and so forth not the perpetrators He's not regulating the practice in order to protect the perpetrator what every pro-life bill does inherently Is protect the perpetrator right of the crime Which is something that divine wisdom says we may not do we may not punish The innocent and acquit the guilty. Mm-hmm. God hates that and so All of these policies The laws that the pro-life establishment puts into place that advocate for unequal weights and measures They are all to the fatal To the fatal taking of life really the the innocent life in question. That's the baby Right, so they don't protect the victims. They make the victim a prey For the perpetrator This is then we got to get this because I think that It's kind of a non-starter if we're pointing to these things then scripture that god did regulate Extrapolating these principles from here and saying this should be our public policy on child sacrifice Well, they're not parallel in that way Because those things that god did when he intervened was for the protection of victims. Yeah, every pro-life law Doesn't protect the victim. It makes the victim a prey and it protects the perpetrator to the extent That if you come after the perpetrator of the crime and you seek to hold them accountable to the law and you seek to prosecute them for their crime And hold them legally accountable. The government will come after you They will sanction you for trying to hold the mother accountable for killing her own child now Is that just? Or is it inherently unjust right what these laws do that's what's got to be wrestled with her That's thank you. That's an excellent excellent point. I hadn't even Put that together. That's really really well. Well, don't brother. Thank you for that. Um I just along those lines. I I feel like Toby's argument here is apples and oranges. It's it's not the same thing. Like you said and God's law Is quite clear about murder Thou shalt not murder. That's it. There's no there's no regulations. I know he's trying to connect I know but I I just think categorically they're different. Yeah, I agree. That's what I'm saying You don't have a precedence for child sacrifice to be regulated. Right. You just don't and and I've said this before And I hope Toby hears this there's there's what are like the two sins in in the bible That God calls in the domination and it's specifically for a nation Child sacrifice something of innocent blood and uh homosexual right right right um and I don't believe correct me if i'm wrong, Toby I don't believe you guys would be arguing for laws against homosexuality The same way. I don't believe you would say well This law here we're gonna we're gonna support all the place here and this law says that um You can have Sex with a child up to 10 years old but not after that or however you want to phrase it My point is if you're setting these subjective places You know in in protection of or or protection of their perpetrator like you said I don't believe you would argue for homosexual laws like that Um, and I believe you would say no, it's it's all or nothing on this um, I know that was a I was talking about pedophilia here specifically, but Um, the example that you're giving the the parallel that you're trying to make is the arbitrary cutoffs exactly Yeah, I don't I don't think you would argue for that for those laws the same way. Yeah, um, so I don't understand why You're arguing for the the ending of abortion like this. That's where i'm struggling trying to try to figure out why Um anyways, just a small point there, but let's keep going Not the same thing as being morally upright Another example of regulation of sinful practices in the old testament would be polygamy and divorce Exodus 21 deuteronomy 24 is polygamy or divorce sinful the biblical answer in both cases is usually In the case of divorce, we can say that god hates it And that it covers those who participate in it in violence malachi 216 Not only that god hates divorce because it destroys our godly seed malachi 215 Jesus also clearly taught that most divorce causes adultery Matthew 19 verse 9 and adultery was the kind of civil crime that could require the death penalty in certain circumstances Deuteronomy 22 verse 22 So in the case of civil law regulating divorce We have the authoritative teaching of Jesus that moses permitted divorce more broadly because of the hardness of israelite hearts Matthew 19 verse 8 But that law was part of the Torah the holy law of god the most perfect law for a human society Ever devised a light for the nations and the foundation of our christian common law tradition And that law included in it some regulation of practices that god hated That crushed little ones and yeah, I would just reiterate once again We're talking about the difference between victims and perpetrators here. Yeah, um, you know when Jesus addresses the issue of divorce He's of course not condoning divorce or calling it good um You know, he says that They were breaking god's design like it from the beginning he made the male and female and for this reason a man shall be joined to his um To his wife and they'll become one flesh But because of their hardness of hearts Moses made a provision so that victims would be guarded Like that's what that was about once again Incremental ism Regulation ism is not doing that Right. It's not doing that. Yeah, dude. Yeah. I'm glad you caught that. All right Often led to adultery That regulation did not approve of the practice of divorce It was a god-inspired regulation aimed at limiting and discouraging divorce Likewise god regulated lynching through the introduction of cities of refuge The blood avenger had some right to seek justice for the wrongful death of a close relative God was also in the process of establishing normal courts of law and a primitive justice system Exodus 18 But in the meantime god regulated some measure of vigilante justice in order to slowly end it God sometimes regulated sinful practices in order to discourage reduce and limit them with the goal of ultimately ending Their legal protections and god did that God did that yeah, he regulated the practice in accordance with his perfect wisdom to know What was necessary for the preservation of innocent life at that time of course fast forward to us thousands of years later In terms of having a justice system that's intact and you might argue well barely and I would agree In many ways like we're hanging on by a thread here. No doubt, but um The mechanisms that we have in place are where we're currently at in this moment that we have to work with Yeah, there are there are things in place that we can Impact yeah, we can make a difference in them based on what we have right It's interesting the this idea of the the the avenger of blood the city like now we're in a position where The wicked are making cities of refuge for The one who intentionally murders their child Like they've even taken that concept of the sanctuary city and turned it completely on its head Wow So this is again, that's not the situation that we're facing here. We're not facing an accidental Negligent manslaughter. Yeah, nine times out of ten. We're facing someone that willfully And knowingly chose to terminate the life of their preborn child And they are doing what tobi says which is racing to the place Where they are protected to do that these sanctuary cities. I just I thought that just hit me actually That's excellent dude. Yeah, I mean you're right. God God did that but he does not regulate a murder And the end his law excellent point Conclusion So we are all incrementalists The faithful abolitionist who preaches at the abortion mill and sees one baby saved and goes home for the day is not saying It's okay for the rest of you to keep killing babies He has done what he can do for today and he will be back soon to save more The faithful smashmouth incrementalist who works to get a heartbeat bill through a hard-hearted Mostly pagan state legislature like new york or california is not saying that it's okay to murder babies if you do it before A heartbeat can be detected Obedience means you cannot do all good things at once or immediately this so just quickly again That's where he brought up those liberal states again Um, I don't like arguing the exceptions Using the exceptions to argue for what's happening in the majority of the states Um, so yeah, and I and again we agree that yeah, there are incremental steps that are righteous That's why we're we're framing the argument differently This is not a utilitarian argument. This is not pragmatism This is looking at the law of god and submitting our tactics and strategy to his word Good and faithful kings and israel and judo were sometimes described as doing what was right in the eyes of the lord Except that they did not remove the high places You can have laws and magistrates that are good in the side of the lord That do not fully establish justice that do not do everything that might have been done In broadly conservative and predominantly christians can I just say one thing i'll advocate for bill It's it's not a sin not necessarily anyways To pass laws that leave certain things undone Okay It is a sin To propose to write or to vote for a law that shows partiality Mm. That's all I would say to that excellent excellent Those that simply outlaw abortion full stop period Prior to roe being struck down you had some additional challenges with convincing christians to defy roe Which i've previously argued that we should have done But now that roe is struck down conservative states should simply exercise their authority to protect all human life Under their jurisdictions ido is an interesting case because we are actually heavily mormon We have a near ban, but we still need to chip away at the exceptions etc So just quickly and we've we've talked about this time and time again, and this is This is what I think most conservatives just don't understand it and aren't seen and I don't know if tobi if you're seeing this as well, but Um say it's like louisiana or idaho with these exceptions and all that Um they go around advertising of you know abortions and it's it's illegal And that jack brought this up at the beginning of the show all these exceptions though Are exceptions for the mother who can murder her child biggest exception at will yeah without Any consequences? That's now this is what we're the conversation. We were having this week is A lot of the people in the pro life industry is like well, it's you know, they're getting the abortion pills We need to regulate the abortion pills and to stop the flow. We need to stop the flow of those. Yeah and and okay We need this we we need to expand our thinking Right because we're we're caught up on this while they're using the pills and trust me They are and the abortion pill Market is through the roof. We really have no idea honestly how many Mothers are born in their babies through because they're not reported also because they're not reported It's and it's not regulated. It's it they can do it at will but we need to expand our thinking A mother can kill her child murder her child in her womb up until um Birth if she wanted to without consequences Not just using the pill not just using the pill. She wants to use a magic potion She wants to use a hanger. She can punch her baby to death in her belly She can run her car into a tree. You name it you the most gruesome way you can think of She can do that with no penalty and guess why? Because of the pro-life industry because that's their position and they're allowing it And that's what we're trying to say this has to stop. This is where this uh partialities coming This is why it's unjust and we need to we need to be thinking Clearly and objectively and not ignoring some parts and i'm not accusing you to we've ignored anything But i'm saying as a whole within our nation within the conservative movement. They're ignoring what's happening Any thoughts All i would say to that is trying to stop the flow of abortion pills Ultimately, it's a futile endeavor because As conservatives are Very comfortable in saying guns don't kill people. Yes. Thank you people kill people Right abortion pills Don't kill anyone People that take abortion pills kill Preborn shelter exactly exactly. Thank you But in states like california in new york, you don't have a christian majority to appeal to Obviously preach the gospel, but if you can get a fetal pain bill onto the floor of the new york legislature I think that would likely be a marvelous opportunity to explain the full humanity of all unborn babies to a room full of pagons Who might not otherwise ever hear it? Likewise a heartbeat bill may be all you're likely to get a hearing on for many years And i think it tactically wise to try to get that past as a means to arguing for the full human rights of preborn baby This is really important just one thing on this here and we i alluded to this earlier, but What we're saying and what we're writing have to match We want equal protection for all humans. That's what we're proclaiming right And then we step before legislature and they say well, why does your bill show favoritism to mothers then? Right, and this is how we got roversus weighed by the way right we said um A fetus is a person And the courts saw right through that and they said well If the baby is human Why does your state law have a different penalty protecting them? Or If a fetus is a person why is there one party exempt from prosecution for taking their life? You see the problem is they don't believe us because we don't mean what we say And actions speak louder than words. So if we write something in our laws that is different than our profession Then we are guilty of lying in order to defend the truth. That's really what it comes down to if you say Life begins a conception with your mouth and then you come with a bill that says Um, you know, it's a heartbeat act. They're gonna say Well, if life begins at conception as you say, then why does your bill say only protect humans with detectable heartbeats? Like what do you really believe? What's the truth? So I think this is a point of consistency I think it's a point of understanding that the other side has given us the way to win And the way to win is to tell the truth The way to win is to write and say What is consistent and what accords with the truth? We can't say one thing with our mouths and write another thing with our laws. It's just It's not consistent. Yeah, and and going back again to those those liberal states Again, we've not even had a bill in any of those states And I can I can tell you even if it was a heartbeat bill or a 15 week ban, it's not getting out of committee in those states Um So just that whole line of reasoning there. It's not even a reality um, and I don't say that Mockingly Uh, you know, or to take a jabby, which is not reality They wouldn't even get through committee. So like that that line of reasoning while we should I'd be okay with one of these lesser Bills that's not quite equal protection in one of these states if you could get it to the floor It's just not even going to happen. It's not going to get out of committee. I mean, we can't even get Righteous laws out of committees and in conservative states um And but but Again going back to what I said at the beginning with the prophetic vision because that's what he's saying there Right he's saying hey if we could get one of these bills in these liberal states and have an opportunity for prophetic vision To call them to repentance then I'd be all for it then teach them brother But you can there's ways to do that without Without putting in a partial bill Or a bill of partiality. There's ways to do that Um, you you can get creative with and again This is something I think if you guys were more involved in this process, you would see it and understand that there's ways to do that Um, so anyways, I just want to make sure I was making that point. I think he's wrapping up here. So While we preach the gospel testify against all the bloodshed and wait upon the lord for the reformation and revival That will change the hearts of our nation Okay, so wow we made it through that whole thing. Look at that. That's awesome. I would just end by saying Yeah, we can't testify to the the full value and the sanctity of human life By writing things that say Someone is exempt From taking human life It's it's just a matter of consistency. It's just a matter of meaning what we say So yeah Absolutely. Well, we'll we'll go ahead and there we're just just over an hour there's with it. So I can't believe we did it perfect Um So just real quickly. I want to mention our other sponsors who very much support equal protection Uh bradley pierce. We love him heritage defense. Yeah, you might say he's familiar with the position Uh oh Well In that case Oh, it came on plug. Oh god. We fix it. Sorry. I don't know how I did that It just like fell out anyways Brother pierce writes all of our bills all very good protection bills and he is on call a lot for heritage defense Um, so I keep saying this. I mean it. I'm not just saying this just to like Get more sales if you homeschool your kids Please sign up with heritage defense super cheap Heritage bench that org put apology and keep on code to get your first month free Um, it's an invaluable resource and then also, um again amtech blades Uh, you see those beautiful battle axes right there Uh bill rapier become a very good friend of mine very dear brother. He's an elder at his church in idaho actually He's just north of he's about an hour 45 minutes hour north of moscow Um, nobody knows exactly where yeah Uh, fantastic man Uh, one of the greatest warriors our nations ever had Truly, he's he's legendary within the navy seal community And loves jesus and he also supports equal protection So if you go to antec blades and get one of his amazing blades or battle axes Uh, you can put apology in the coupon code and get five percent off and I keep mentioning this He will match that with five percent than abortion. Oh, so thank you bill Um, quickly we have a super chat there Nicholas. Thank you. You said what do you think of abortion as a euphemism for Feta side, which is murder is a name and abortion now therefore counterproductive directive communications I don't believe so, um, I mean feta side is technically accurate. That's what we're talking about It's the homicide of a fetus. So absolutely, but the name and abortion now just communicates to the broader culture The practice that we're seeking to end and when we want it Completely finished. Yeah, which is now Um, the alternative was end abortion yesterday I'm just kidding. It wasn't that but I would just say, um, no, I mean from a Communicating the issue standpoint. Uh, I think it's a great Name and I'm not I'm not just saying that because I'm the communications director Because it communicates what we're all about. Yeah, and abortion now. Um, of course There's euphemisms of the culture is employing You could call it feet aside. Um, the culture calls it abortion We of course need to communicate the fact that it's murder. That's the unjustified taking of human life and we do We don't shy away from that one bit But there's nothing wrong with Getting something that is short punchy and gets the point of all about Yeah, and I would say that Feta side doesn't even the biblical term murder is child sacrifice The shedding of innocent blood. So maybe we want to get really biblical. Maybe we can say in child sacrifice now that would be You know Will you're asking for but that domain name would probably have been available probably And it probably get us nowhere Real quick. Um, uh, anyways, thanks for the question Nicholas and for the support. We really appreciate it. Um, but On that note We're gonna get out here. We will stick around real quick for a quick after show for all you all accessors Thank you so much for all that you do for your support of us You you literally keep the lights on for us. We're grateful for you. So stick around. We'll do a quick Show and can continue this conversation Um, what's going on with an abortion hour and now speaking of anything you want to let people know about? I think for us right now We're trying to fight the battle hard on our own home front like other states There are Ballot measures coming up that the church needs to band together and all these states to work hard to defeat It's a defensive posture right now. So it's a matter of Being clear with our communication being clear with our words and trying to mobilize the public Uh to stand against this being and trying to know our state constitution. So however, I can help with that However, we all on our team here, um, can work together I mean, that's something that that we're planning on doing is presenting united front and hopefully give some Words to this and some messaging to this that people can rally around Like even the broader pro-life movement that we are trying to disciple towards more abolitionist perspective Here like we want to bring them along and then we have to be strategic with using our words to tell the truth Stand on our principles. Yeah, um, but that gives everybody room to come along board here Yeah, I mean along those lines Uh, people may not realize this maybe they do Uh, that the legislative process Does is not only four months of the year I mean Technically in the states for most states it's four months But for us it's year on it keeps going. We're constantly doing stuff And uh, so just I I guess I Earlier we were in 18 states this year next year. We're looking like possibly 20 Which is incredible Um, so we do have some stuff coming up this fall as well be some pastor's meetings Um, so be looking for that that we have a many official announcements because they're kind of tentative But I can tell you tentatively right now we're looking at one in Louisiana at pastor brine gunter church And possibly one in north dakota as well. So it's a new state. We'll be in Um, so be looking for those we'll announce those Uh, when we have them locked down So if you're in those states, we'd love to see you help love you have to come out and give us support and and stuff So, uh, on that note I will, uh, get us out of here. We'll be back next week actually we're gonna have Nathan Anderson on next week Um to talk about His new film and I completely just lost the name of it You'll find out next week if you show up. It's really good I was giving it for like five seconds Uh excellent excellent. What what is the name of I completely lost? I have no idea You know, I'm talking about it yet. No, you didn't see it. No. Oh, okay. Sorry. I'm the postman. I'm the man Yeah, anyways, he'll be oh, oh, oh, oh, Nathan Anderson. Nathan. Yeah, but sorry, dude I thought you know that Nathan Anderson. Okay. Yeah, the yes Um teach all nation teach all nations. Yes. There it is. That's the one. Yes. We'll have money If you haven't seen his newest one Yeah, we're just killing it here Go watch it. Forgive us. Forgive us. Please search him out It's on youtube for free and it's fire. Go watch it All right on that note I'm going to get us out because we're just sounding like buffoons now. Peace out later [Music]