(upbeat music) - Welcome to Wallowing in the Shallows, the podcast that skirts the perilous drop off of a deep dive into television and movies. We are academic nerds aspiring to become TV and lady geeks. There are no spoiler guards in the shallows so listen at your own riffs. This week, join us for a wallow in a Buffy the Vampire Slayer, season three, watch. (upbeat music) - Hey, hello peeps. Welcome to Wallowing in the Shallows. This is Tori. - And this is Rebecca. And today we are talking Buffy the Vampire Slayer, season three, episode one, Anne. - Season three. - Season three begins. - I'll just say, I mean, you know, after the intensity and the finish of season two, this was a little rough, right? It just, it's tough. It's just, I don't know what they could have done. They just need to sort of get us back and all this kind of thing and it had its moments but just compared to the emotional ride that was the, the pair of finale episodes of season two. This was a letdown. I mean, but understandably so. - Yes, yeah. Rolling Stone rated it number 81. - Okay. - It is a bit of a letdown, but I mean, I still got some stuff to talk about with it. - Oh, definitely. Me too. And I'm not, I'm not saying it was bad, right? Just, just a letdown. And it's hard when you're coming from again, the emotional ride that was even the lead up to the finale of season two, so. - Yeah, I think-- - And there was no spike and drill and there was no spike and drill. I think that would have perhaps ameliorated my pain somewhat. - Yeah, it is a letdown, particularly when you watch it so close to episodes 21 and 22. - Mm-hmm. - You know, originally we had a whole summer between, you know, those two episodes and this one. I mean, it was still letdown, but I don't maybe think I felt it is keenly, is if I had just watched these episodes a week or so ago? - Yes. - So that probably has something to do with it too. - Yes, I think you're right. I think I was ready to go right back to the emotional level and the swept up in this, and it was like, oh, okay. Some good, some good things. Awesome to see Oz in the title credits. So he appears to be hardcore member of the Scooby Gang now, which I was very pleased to see. They've tipped their hand a bit with Angel still being in the title credits as well. - Yeah, it would have been better if they would have waited to put him, but I mean, he is in this episode, so. - It's true, he is, but Oz has been in midi episodes without being in the title credits. - Well, that is true, that is true, but yeah. - Let's take a step back. - I know you have a summary, and there was a little bit before the title credits as well. - Yes, yes, so my summary, pretty short, no matter how far Buffy runs, she can't get away from her slayer destiny. The scoops try to keep the vamps in check in Sunny D. - Sunny D. Perfect. - That's how I always think about it. And I realize I usually, I'm always very conscious of saying Sunny, Sunnydale, you know, but I'm like, you know what, I'm screw it, I'm just gonna call it Sunny D, 'cause that's what I do in my head. - Oh my gosh, I don't think you've ever slept because I think I would have noticed. I like it. - Thanks. - Thanks. - Yeah, so we got the cold opening with Willow Zander and Oz in the cemetery. - Yep, trying to take care of slayer business with Andrew, Andrew, full look, or look. - Oh, look, I think, H-O-E-L-I-C-H. I did write that down. - Oh, look, yes. - 'Cause I was like, that could be a potential trivia question that she asked me. I better write that down. - Oh my gosh, well, I did write it down, but I didn't do it as a trivia question. Another dead high school student, though maybe he'd been graduated for a while, who had been a gymnast. - Yep, he was flipping all over the place. (laughs) - I love what Oz tries to throw the stake at him. You have the setup where it just seems like maybe this is gonna work out, but it's so perfect. I mean, I don't think, just as we saw, I don't know that a wooden stake has enough mass to really do much of a, you know? - Yeah, yeah. - I think it needs the force with the hand in order to really be, or something like a crossbow. - Yes, that has some force behind it. Hats off to the prop, or the sound department, that sound of the wooden stake bouncing off the headstone is great. - It was so pathetic. It was just like... (dramatic music) - It really never works. - It might as well have been a ruler or something. - Yeah, yep, yep, it was good, it was good, so. - What'd you think of Willow's hair? - I think it, I like Willow's hair. - Yeah, I think it helps to de-infantilize her. - Yes, I think she looks a little more age-appropriate with it, and I think it suits her. - Yeah. - It suits her. Of course, then they had to put the dopey little hat over it, but not in the first scene. - Yeah, she does need to leave the punning to the slayer. - Oh my gosh. - Yes. - Not that good. Oz, may I suggest this time it's personal? - I do love Oz. - I am just thrilled we're going to get more of him. (laughs) - You know, that phrase, of course, quite popular, pops up in lots of different moves and stuff. This time it's personal, but I was wondering if that was, where that originally came from, like in what movie? And evidently, other people wondered it too, and they did very deep dives. Thank goodness, so I didn't have to. But evidently it comes from Jaws 4. - Oh my gosh. - In 1987. - Oh my gosh, wow. Was that on the poster? Was it like, and this time it's personal? - Oh, that I don't know. I just just reading. Well, I read like two or three different pages just to see it. Everybody seemed to land on that, Jaws 4, the revenge. I don't know if it was on the poster, but I bet we can find out. Jaws 4. - I do think I've seen all of the Jaws movies. I wonder if this brings back some of the original cast or something. - Yeah, Brody's in this one. - Okay, okay. - Well, it's called the revenge. So it kind of almost makes sense that it would say this time it's personal. Oh, it is. It is on the poster. - Oh, fantastic. Okay, but it wasn't until four. - Yeah. - Wow. - Yeah. - I'm trying to think of the first one I would have seen in the theaters. Did you say this one came out in '88? - '87. - Oh, I was in seventh grade. There's no way that my parents would let me go to that one. So it must have been, there was a Jaws 3D that I feel I saw in the theaters. And I kind of thought that was Jaws 3, but maybe it was after, and it was just 3D because it was actually 3D. - I only saw Jaws. Well, that's not true. I saw Jaws 1 and 2, of course, was disappointed in 2. And then Jaws 3 was his kid, right? In the underground, or thingy, or the underwater thingy? - I just don't remember them. I can't remember them independently. Oh my gosh, Jaws 3D came out in 1983. So maybe it was 3, you know? And they then called it 3D. I didn't know 3D technology was available in 1980. Pretty new, if it was. I don't remember going to see 3D movies back then. - Right. - Maybe I did see it and was like this, 'cause I remember it was like the worst movie. It was so bad. So I've never seen any other Jaws after that because that one was so bad. Maybe you saw it in a revival or something. - I feel like that almost had to have been it because I can't imagine my mom's the one that I shared a lot of shark movies with. I cannot imagine my mom taking me at Jaws to a Jaws movie when I was like in third grade. - Yeah, yeah. - But anyway, the last one seems to be, there was one after Jaws the revenge pool Jaws in 1995. - Oh. - I'd have been in college by then. I don't know. None of this is hanging together. So I feel like there must have been some redistribution in the theater or something. - Yeah. - But anyway, Jaws, there you go. Little, little, little bit of a flashback to Jaws. But that's really cool. - Yeah, our first big tangent of season three. - Yes. - Yes. Well Jaws is a worthy franchise. Well, at least the first one. - Well, the first one. I was just gonna say it's about time to watch Jaws again. I like to watch it at the beginning of all summer seasons. (laughs) - Right before you head to the ocean. - Exactly, exactly. - Remind you of your healthy separation between your world and the world of the deep. - Yes, yes. And it's so weird because I love being near to water. But I like being out on lakes and I like rivers and things like that. But being out on the ocean is nerve-wracking for me. - I agree. I don't like to swim very deeply in the ocean. I like to wade. I do wade in waves. But I do not. I'm like, what is in there? I can't see it. And I know there are big things in there that could give me a pinch. - Yeah, about as much as I'll do is when we were in St. Kitts on that catamaran and me and Katie and MB, that's about as much as the ocean I can do. You know, I was doing a little bit of that snorkeling, but it was still pretty close to land. And I didn't wander very far from the other people. Anyway, we're really off. - Well, speaking of beaches, very next scene, we've got Buffy having a little dream. And we hear her guilt play out in her head yet again that she'll be there forever, even if she kills them. - Yep. - So, purple. - Yes, it is. It is. I did notice in a lot of the scenes of Buffy elsewhere in some anonymous city somewhere. A lot of the scenes are kind of washed out. So, you know, Buffy's living a colorless existence as she's run away. I knew I had to just not throw that in there. - Yeah, appreciate it. - I thought that wasn't the only sort of, I don't know, artistic or statement they were trying to make. There seemed to be a little montage of the kind of homeless or runaway teenager fight. - Which they then used for opening credit sequences in Angel. - Oh, interesting. - Yeah, yeah. - But I did notice it looks like with the opening credit sequence, I don't think I didn't see anything from season one. It looks like it's all season two and season three stuff. - Well, I was sure glad the spiders were gone. That's the thing I clocked. - Do you remember, 'cause I can't remember and I haven't gone back to view it yet, is the cat, is Amy's dad still in it? - I don't, there was a lot of fresh stuff. Some that we had already seen from this episode. And, but I don't remember seeing the cat, but I wasn't looking for it. - I got to remember to try to look for it, but I don't think the cat's in there. I'm like, "Oh, Amy's dad is gone." - Wow, we've lost him, we've lost him. - Yeah, yeah, I guess he had to make way for the werewolf. (laughing) - Yes. - Yeah, I was so happy when Seth came in. - Did you notice something else new about the title sequence? - Well, okay, so not all of the new scenes, you mean like with the names of people? - Nope, something different. - Is there something different in the sound? - Nope, same song by Nerf her girls. (laughing) - No, I don't know. - New title font. - Oh my gosh, totally did not notice that, but very cool. - Yeah, what I do have to say is it did just look refreshed. It was really kind of starting to look very old, right? And maybe the font contributed to that facelift because it just looked re-energized. And I don't know, I don't know, a higher resolution. Maybe that's why they ditched the season one scene. - Yeah, that could be, that could be. And a few episodes back, I don't remember exactly which one, but they dropped the narration over the title sequence. - Right. - Which I like a lot better. Like it just be in the music and the background scenes, so. - Yeah, yeah. All in all, hats off. Again, no spiders, really glad they ditched that part. - Yes, yeah. And then we find Buffy slinging hash in a diner. - Yes, and being mistreated. - Yep. - So, yes, so then we have. - Cordelia. - Cordelia's grief at her summer vacations is just never to be underestimated. Though not nearly as good as the season when she opened with, no one has suffered like I have suffered. - Yes, that was good. - Which almost made my season two top lip. - Top lip, I did not quite. - Yes, yeah, Cordelia. Don't wear a cardigan draped on her shoulders. - Mm-hmm. - Here's my trivia question. - Yes. - Where did Cordelia spend her summer? - Oh my gosh. I was so thinking about asking you the same exact trivia question, but I have lost Paulmas in Mexico. - Yeah, yeah, I know it's kind of an easy one. - But it was the same one I was thinking of. - Yeah, yeah, ease us into season three. - Oh, I'll find another one along the way. - But I did need to back up a little bit. - Oh, please do. - Through the diner scene. When you saw Ricky and Lily, did you recognize Lily right away? - No, I did not recognize her right away at all. And in fact, it wasn't until she said you saved us from, you know, the vampires that I was like, oh, well, at least I remember that. I remember those events at that episode, but I still didn't remember her. - Yeah, she was dressed in vampire goth last time we saw her. But yeah, I do remember recognizing her right away. But I think they're using her and Ricky as stand-ins for Angel and Buffy, you know, 'cause Ricky even says, you know, forever, that's the whole point, which is basically what, you know, Angel. - Right. - I'd said to her and yeah. - Ouch. - Oh, I think that seems-- - They use Lily for a lot of things, but I think her and Ricky together are standing for Angel and Buffy. - Yeah, oh, Lily got on my nerves a little bit. Just couldn't seem to do anything on her own. But a little birdie gets out of the nest at the end. - She does. - She's going to start the job and has an apartment that's at least paid up for three weeks and hopefully things will go well. - Yeah, yeah. - But way before then-- - Way before then. Back to, I love this opening, or post opening credit scene. It's a one-shot scene, you know, where they start in the library and come out and they're following people around. That's all done with one shot. - Real walking and talking sort of a la West Wing kind of situation. - Exactly, exactly. But I thought that was really well done and we see Larry's back. - Is that the football player? - Yes. - Oh my gosh. Okay, I did not remember his name and I love that he said best football season ever and even though I couldn't credit him as Larry 'cause I didn't remember. - If we can focus, keep discipline and not have quite as many mysterious deaths, some of you deal is gonna rock. (laughs) - I love the nod, have as many mysterious deaths. I like the nod to its own. I mean, we've hated when this place just does not even acknowledge that the carnage that occurs on a regular basis. - Yeah, exactly. I was a figure and you'd probably pick that one up. - Oh yeah, oh yeah, though I hadn't remembered Larry. It was Larry. Should I have remembered him from something big? - Yeah, Larry's the guy that was the bully. Turns out he was gay or he is gay. - Oh my gosh. Yeah. Now, thank you. That, now I know who Larry is. - Do you, I wonder if, I think his name is Mr. Miller, we see a quick view of a teacher. And I thought, I think he's gonna be in more of it. - Well, we saw him last season. - Okay. - And he's, I call it the chalkboard Tourette's Professor. - Oh, dear. - Okay. - Yeah, yeah, and that was in the, I only have my favorite. - Yeah, 'cause he wrote something he did not mean to write. - Correct, correct. - Yes. Okay, okay. Well, we've got some continuity here. Bring in some people. - You know, I was wondering, as I was watching this scene, is this the first time we've seen Xander wearing jewelry? He's looking very kind of surf boy grunge in this episode. - And I had to say, Xander button a button, will you? Did he have like two buttons buttoned on that shirt and too many above those two buttons and way too many below those two buttons buttoned? Do you know what I'm talking about? - I do know what you're talking about, yes, yes. - Oh my gosh. - Surf boy grunge, it's the only thing I could, only where I could describe it. - And these two, like these two crazy kids, you know, they were both so excited to see each other and they can't get over there, get out of their own way. - That was painfully awkward. - Yes, yes. - Yeah, yeah. I was like, "Oh, that's really rough." - Mm-hmm. - Really rough. And then we're back to Buffy. - Yes. - And go on through a tough time. - Yeah, yeah, that's for sure. And that, as I was thinking about this later and starting to wait a little deeper into the shallows, that woman, the homeless woman, who says, "I'm no one." - Yes. - That's kind of representative of what Buffy thinks she wants. - Oh, wow. - You know, not the homelessness part, but that-- - No, no. - He's no one, right? - Complete anonymity. - Right, right, right, so. - Yeah, and all these, we are now to believe that all these homeless people, and definitely the ones saying, "I'm no one," are the rejects from what I'm gonna call the flash dance factory. I'll explain more later. (laughing) - I was just, well, I think the faux charity was called Family House. I was just calling it Family House Hell. I'm like, "Let's not get into the loaded..." (laughing) Things that could be associated with Family House Hell, but-- - Yeah, I look forward to discussing that, but for here, yes, we have the "I am no one" and the age and then get rejected and are homeless people on the street, but are kind of brainwashed because they believe they've spent like 90 years toiling away, and even though I guess the turnover is only a day, which is shocking to me. So this home school, home life, home hope, whatever. - Family House. - Family House really needs to get a lot of kids in there quick because-- - Yeah, yeah. - Well, he's out there recruiting. - He sure is, him and his fliers. (laughing) So yes, Lily was Chanterelle. - Yes. - Yes, that whole mushroom, fancy mushroom, or exotic mushroom. - I'm like, yeah, Chanterelle's super exotic. - Yeah, yeah, I think we could think of a lot more exotic than that, but frankly in the 90s, I would have thought of Chanterelle was pretty exotic. Anything beyond a button or a portobello was majorly different. - So Giles gets a lead potentially in Oakland and I called Ken, Holy Boy Ken. Holy Boy Ken has a group home. Oh, and then there's the homeless kids runaway kind of thing. And do you remember, I forgot to look this up when that song "Runaway Train" came out? Because I think it might have been in a similar time. I feel like there was some awareness or epidemic, if you will, of sort of runaways in the 90s. - I don't know. - Does that make any sense? - No, I don't know what song you're talking about. - Are you not familiar with that song? - No, who sings it? - I am not going to ruin everybody's ears by singing it. So I am just going to look up. I am pretty sure it was called "Runaway Train." Yeah, by "Soul Asylum," and oh, oh, you know, and I think at the end or during it, they might have even shown pictures of missing kids. - In the video? - Yes. How many kids were found from "Runaway Train"? Oh my gosh, I'd argue it was the single most important thing that happened in the history of MTV because it saved young people's lives. Did the "Runaway Train" music video really save 21 kids? - 1993, so it would have predated these episodes. 1994, "The Interspective Ballad," won the Grammy for Best Song, "Best Rock Song." So still remembered for its video and for reuniting missing children with their families. - I've probably heard it. - Yeah, give it a listen. You might have heard it, but that is okay. - So I feel like it is kind of connected. - Then Buffy the Vampire Slayer, I'm just making a little statement here. Would this have been? - We're September 28 now, so. - Okay, 'cause Buffy graduates in 1999. - Oh my God. - What did you think about "Old Matt Damon"? (crickets chirping) - Wait, who's "Old Matt Damon"? Is "Old Matt Damon" Ken? - No, Ricky. - Oh God. - Old Ricky. Did he look like Matt Damon? - We saw him for half a second. I'm impressed, I'll have to go back and see him because I just saw this old man next to "Drain Cleaner," which seemed like he'd drunk it to die, that would sound horrible. - Yeah, and oddly enough, even though I was always thought he looked like Matt Damon, he actually plays "Old Matt Damon" in "Private Ryan." - Oh my gosh, Tori, you're kidding me. - No, and that came out the same year. - That's impressive. Were you just looking up who that actor was and came across that, or did you think he looked like Matt Damon, or did you recognize him from saving "Private Ryan"? - Well, I wondered, I go, "Is that the same dude from "Private Ryan?" And so I looked it up and I'm like, "It is the same dude from "Private Ryan." So, "Old Matt Damon." - "Old Matt Damon," "Old Matt Damon," we hardly knew you in this show. And honestly, when we first saw the tattoo, oddly enough, I didn't first go to this was Ricky. I was like, "Is there some sort of body snatcher thing?" Or I don't know, but I can't believe that it was, until Buffy said, "Yeah, and he's about 90 years old." Then I was like, "Oh, they've sucked the life out of him." - Yeah. - Anyway, depressing night at the bronze. Though I will say, some progress, I've gotta chalk up some progress to Zander, that when Willow mentions something and Zander starts talking, he's actually talking about Cordelia wistfully and not Buffy. - Oh, I know what she's doing. Gabbin' to all of her friends about her passionate affair with Pedro, the cabana boy, laughin' about me, thinking how she still might have feelings about me. - Yeah, that was a nice change. - Yeah. - Well, that's it. Of course, the depressing set, I called it the sad girl band, singing a song, very much related to what's happening. I'm gonna find my way, kind of thing. But I did like that kind of exchange between Zander and Willow and Oz, and they're talking about, you know, staking the vamps and Oz is like, - I don't know. I think we're kind of getting a rhythm down with losing half the vamps. - Yeah, but rhythmically. - Uh, folks on the positive Zander, we only saw a failure. I'm impressed you're gettin' half of 'em. (laughing) - Yeah, that part, they don't really show us. - Yeah, not until they get Cordelia for bait from one of the heat. - Mm-hmm. - And then we get to what I think is maybe one of the harshest scenes in this episode. - For God's sakes, Joyce. (laughing) Take a moment and look at yourself before you blame everybody else. - Yeah. - You know, when Giles first showed up, I was like, oh, maybe I'm right about the Joyce and Giles gettin' together sometime. And I'm like, whoa, hard pass on that, at least in this episode. (laughing) Yeah, I mean, I kinda, on one hand, I kind of understand where she's comin' from, right? She did have this relationship with Buffy that she didn't say she knows about, but I mean, he showed up at their house sometimes, he showed up at the hospital, it's like good choice. - Right. - She didn't know the complete nature of the relationship with the slang, but he did not hide. She knew how much time they spent together. So I think she's just angry that he knew and she didn't. - Right, right. And she's kind of the last to know kind of thing. - Yes. - So, so yeah, but I'd still, yeah. I mean, that's harsh. I blame you well. - Yeah, and it sounds like it's Giles who's runnin' around with all the frequent flyer miles and trying to find her, and she's just sittin' at home waiting for her. - Yeah, and you know when Giles was probably already feeling very guilty and then Joyce goes and lays this on him, and I don't think he deserved that. - No, it was pretty terrible. And I don't know that he knows that Buffy told her the truth. - Well, I think she is. - Well-- - It's all out now. - Well, I think so because otherwise why would she say you had this whole secret relationship? I don't remember exactly what she says, but I think probably at this point-- - But she says what exactly is she? You know, he says something like given what she is. - You know, I think she's gonna be okay. And Joyce is like, and what exactly is she? So anyway, I don't know. We'll see what happens with Joyce and Giles. - There was a bit of a hint of some romantic something in the credits with Giles. I think I remember seeing him with flowers or something like this, but not seeing the other person. So I feel like something's comin' up. - Mm, I don't remember seeing that one. - Oh, well, maybe-- - Oh, look, I'll look. Maybe I made it up. (laughing) - But then Lily and her, it was back to Buffy for help. - Yes. - And we know Buffy can't ignore a plaintiff plea for help. - She sure tries, but she cannot. - Oh, 'cause she's a hero when it comes down to it. - Yes, and they go to the blood blank. Blood, blood blank. They go to the blood bank with the AIDS poster. - Yep. - And-- - Which made me start singing little Lily Lily won't go home. Remember that story I told? - Well, the song didn't quite do it for me. (laughing) - I told you that story about what my friend Kim and I went to get. - Oh, yes, absolutely, absolutely. I had just forgotten the crazed song. (laughing) - So nurse at the blood bank could not have been more sus. - Oh my God, that's the exact thing I wrote down. (laughing) - She, there's no way she could have tried harder to be suspicious. - Yeah, exactly. - It almost reminded me of a mellow drop, but kind of thing. Have you ever seen like high anxiety by Mel Brooks? - Yes, yes. - And so like a raised eyebrow and a turning face. You know what I gotta like? - No, nothing to see here. - Yeah, yeah, exactly. - I think everything to see here, Harvey Corbin. - Yeah, Harvey Corbin. I loved him on Carol Burnett, when him and Carol and Tim Conway would get going and Vicki Lawrence. - Tim's, you know, I wrote to Tim Conway and I got a signed picture of Tim Conway that I don't think I still have. I think I was like in the fourth grade, I wish I could find this. But yeah, he didn't send a letter or anything, but I got, you know, good for his people to send back, you know, a fan, a signed picture. And it was like him with that little, I can totally remember. I mean, it was like an eight by 10 black and white with him wearing that sort of, you know, hat that has the brim that sort of goes down, almost like a fishing hat. I don't know. - Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I loved him and, you know. And the Carol Burnett show, you know, just it was. So yeah, like in fourth or fifth grade, I wrote him a letter. - That's funny. That is funny. Yeah, I always kind of, when I just really need a belly laugh, I'll go to YouTube and search for Carol Burnett, Tim Conway. And I particularly like the elephant scene, you know, when he's telling that story about that elephant, when it's like they're in Mama's house. - I remember Mama's house. - Yeah, and Conway is telling this stupid story about this elephant and Carol Burnett is having the hardest time. And then he's, and I guess he kept changing it up. And then he starts telling this story about the Siamese twin elephants who are joined at the ends of their trunks. And so every time they try to like call out, you see in their trunk, they're like normal. Or something like that. And Carol Burnett just loses it at this point 'cause he's been going on and on for a while. - Oh my gosh. I don't, I'll have to Google laugh. - Oh yeah. I don't remember that one. - Oh my God, yeah. Go to YouTube, Carol Burnett, Tim Conway, Elephant. - Okay. - Okay. - It is, so I mean, even all these years later, I watched it, I still laugh as hard as I did the first time I ever saw it. - That's impressive. - Yeah, yeah. Anyway, okay, bringing us back. - Yeah, so nurse at the blood bank, super sus, we've already talked about the drinking the drain cleaner, which seemed like a rough way to die. - Uh-huh. - And then, but then I have the note, yes, oh, the aging process accelerated, that makes so much more sense. (laughing) - Yeah, we're back with Lily and Buffy. Buffy gives Lily some tough talk. You know, listen, you gotta, he's dead. You gotta just pull it together. These things happen, Lily. Our boyfriend's die all the time. - Yeah, in fact, I wrote down, who is Buffy really talking to her here? Lily or herself? - 100%. - Yeah, I mean, I think that it's a really important thing, right? Seeing, even though Lily is annoying, and I even think, you know, blaming Buffy, if we think of Lily as a stand-in for Buffy, it's Buffy blaming herself. - Yes, which, I love that you're saying that, and actually later, Lily does apologize for that. - Yeah, yeah. - And she, it's pretty timely because it's right around the time, Buffy becomes Buffy again, and owns it, right? I love that. I love that scene, and we'll wait till we get there. But I just wanted to give that, connecting to you saying Lily's stand-in, then it may be, - Buffy forgives herself a little bit, when Lily forgives her. - Yeah, yeah. - I like that kind of thread. - Yeah. - Lily and Ricky are the stand-ins, and we're Buffy slowly forgiving herself. - Yeah, I appreciate you pointing that out. I had not quite jumped there, but I like it. I do like the scene where Buffy breaks into the blood bank. - Amazing. - What are you doing? - Breaking into your office and going through your private files. (laughing) - Yes. - 100% back. - Buffy's back. And I did find it hilarious when I didn't write down the exact quote, but she said, - I don't want any trouble. I just want to be alone and quiet in a room with a chair and a fireplace and a tea cozy. I don't even know what a tea cozy is, but I want one. - With the tea cozy. And I was like, huh, I've got myself a cup of tea. What good is a tea cozy without a tea cup? And then I really appreciate it. She's like, I don't even know what a tea cozy is, but I want one. And so I'm like, okay, well, that makes a lot more sense. It sounds really cozy, right? A tea cozy, that sounds lovely. Well, it's just a little thing to keep the put over here. Tea kettle. - Yes. Oh, yeah, that's nice. That's a fun scene, but it is nice to kind of see Buffy being back regaining self confidence. - Yes. She hasn't quite put the cape on again. - Right, right. - I really feel like there's a distinct moment coming up where that happens, but we're ramping up. - Yes. - We're ramping up. - Yes, yes. - And I enjoyed the scene when Buffy arrives at Family House. - Yes, we're just trying to infiltrate it. It's just like, oh, this undercover thing is for the birds. Just let me knock my way through. - Yes, that makes me laugh a lot. And she's like, oh, I just suck it undercover. And I'm like, yes, Buffy, you do. - She didn't even give me a chance. Lily gets tricked into going to the home because she thinks that her boyfriend's there. - Yeah, yeah. - And then she's gotta wear sackcloth and kneel in front of the dirty water to get cleansed. - Where's the ashes? - sackcloth and ashes. - Right. And rending, rending, rending of hair or something. (laughing) - Sorry. - No, no, so I didn't even have time to get out the phrase, will Buffy get there in time when she's there? (laughing) - Buffy is a nick of the, in the nick of time kind of person. - Definitely. And the black goo cleans up in a jiffy. It's just a portal. - Yeah, I've written down. Buffy busted in just as Lily as sucked into the La Brea Tarpet. - Wow, nice. I doubt the La Brea Tarpet will clean up and send to Jiffy as this does. - Yeah, yeah. - And kind of gets pulled in too. - fells right on his face. - Yes, yes. - I was like, oh, say hey. - He's got a pull off his human mask. And seriously, what the hell was going on downtown here? And that's where I thought flash downs, steel town girl. I mean, we've got, we've got sparks. We've got, it seemed like they were doing metal manufacturing down there. - Yeah, yeah, I have written down. It's kind of unclear what the people are doing, except hammering shit on anvils or stokey fires. - Exactly. - Did you have any flash dance steel town thoughts when you saw them? - I didn't, but I liked that. (laughing) - Yeah. - We're seeing a little Laura Branigan music and we're gonna be on our way. - Hey, that weapon that Ken uses to knock out Buffy, that's not a mace, is it? What is that? - The one and it's got those, it's like a club, but it's got those metal pieces embedded in the end. It's not a cudgel, is it? - I think that's a cudgel because a mace is a ball on the end of a chain with the spiky things. So very related. - Okay. - I couldn't have come up with cudgel, but I think you're right. - Maybe it is a cudgel. We're gonna get our medieval Renaissance Europe cards revoked here. (laughing) - For being able to identify that weapon. - Well, it's interesting because it looks like mace. I think I'm right about at least some form of it being the one at the end of the chain, but not all of them are on the end of a chain. - Huh, but I gotta look up cudgel because cudgel just seems, well, I got cudgels in front of me right now. They just look like bats. I don't see any with like fleshettes and bed at the end. - Well, then I think it might be a variety of a mace because I think the mace with the, that's the ball on the end is just one version. I think mace is maybe a slightly more general term. - Well, here's a cudgel for sale on Etsy that has spikes on the end of it. - Hey, okay, okay. - Oh, maybe, maybe, maybe. - Man, I don't wanna tell ya. Mace seems to come in quite a variety. It seems like it's dominated by the, by the ball with the spikes at the end of the chain, but some of it, I'm seeing one that is, it's still, again, a ball with spikes at the end, but it's the end of a, you know, a rod. Perhaps it's a mace cudgel. Here's one called a yo-gite cudgel. Official Conan, official Conan exiles wiki is where I'm seeing it. And it's got, it almost looks like projectile points. - Coming out of the sides near the end. So, I don't know, I don't know. - Oh, I'm seeing some cudgels with some spikes sticking out of 'em. - Yeah, so maybe it is a cudgel. Wow, yeah. Okay, well, fun with weapons with Tori and Rebecca. Clearly we don't do enough larping. - Yes. - Or we'd know this by enough, I mean, ever. - Ever, yeah. - Yeah, I think so. - Which is probably a shame, I'd probably enjoy it, but-- - And we'd probably already have our geeks at us then instead of just being academic nerds. - Well, I'll lay them into that. - Well, there's our date way. Right in, if you wanna invite us to get a larping of it. Okay, so Ken Slaves are working in the steel mill, which is just inexplicable. - I just had a really stupid, which was, it's funny to me because I know what it means, but I'm sure most people would even understand if I had a set it. If I had a set it. - Okay. - It's gonna say, I wonder if they use yin's in family house hell. (upbeat music) Okay, Pittsburgh steel mills, yin's. You know, they use yin's instead of like y'all or you all or you guys. - Oh my gosh, no, I did not know that. If it's not in flash dance, then I don't know what about a Pittsburgh steel mill. And that's barely grasping. - Yeah, I don't think they're using yin's there. - So yeah. (laughing) - I keep meaning to ask that philosophy professor whose office is next to mine, if he ever was a yin'ser. - Oh, isn't that interesting? - One of these days I'll remember, yeah. Anyway, like I said, it popped into my head when you were saying that about Pittsburgh steel mills and I was like, nobody's gonna get it to her. You're the only one who's gonna think that's funny. - Set people from Pittsburgh. - Well, there you go. Shout out to them. (laughing) - So this is a pretty obvious trivia question, but said she stole mine, I'm going to say it. What episode was called back to in the scene with the upcoming scene with Cordelia and Xander? - Yeah, that would be Inca Mummy Girl. - Yes. (laughing) - I love that light of Cordelia. - Probably met up with some hot little Inca Mummy Girl. Yeah, I heard about her. (laughing) You go, Cordy. And then of course, Willow screams for help 'cause nobody's paying attention and Oz runs in really awkwardly. I'm like, dude, is that how you run? (laughing) Maybe like watching me run in to try to save somebody. - Well, he's not known for his athleticism, so and he can't throw spikes. (laughing) - Speaking of spike, when is he? (laughing) - Away. - Two little, two little spike. Two little spike in this episode. I know, Drew and Spike did run away. And that's right, he promised to take her away and never come back, didn't he? - Yeah, he did. - He promised Buffy. - Mm-hmm, oh, I hope that's not true. I hope that's not true. - I will tell. - We'll see. - Time will tell. But Xander and Cordelia get over their pettiness after spearing a vampire between them. - Yes. So it was like a vampire sandwich there for a moment. - Yes, yes it was. - So did you think that Ken and his people were aliens? Just weird time? - Well-- - Time travelers. I never really, they didn't have much of an origin story. (laughing) - No, there's no origin story. I mean, there's supposed to be demons in some demon dimension there, but what really bad clothing tastes, what were those uniforms? - Oh my gosh. And the guy that sort of had the scarecrow half mask and the teeth that didn't even really seem connected to his mouth. - Oh yeah, that mask was really bad. They should have just not had that guy tossed. - That was horrible. - Yeah, that was really bad. - I mean, it was not scary, even though it could have been. It was not because it was so hokey. - Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, I was just like, oh, bad, bad. You know, and we didn't directed this. It's like, dude, what the hell are you thinking? Letting that in there. - Unknown. - Yeah, yeah. I did write down. I don't know if I've thought of this before, but it doesn't really matter. I wondered if Whedon was making a comment on the capitalist industrial machine. - Oh, and then I was reading, I think it might have been in the myth and metaphor book. They also got that. And I was probably kind of interpreting that correctly because when Buffy is fighting everybody, and we see that great shot of her, and she's got a sickle in one hand and a hammer in the other. - Oh my gosh. And so this person was saying that she's holding this hammer and sickle, which of course are symbols of the communist Soviet Union. And that Buffy is seizing the tools of the state to free the workers. So it's a kind of anti-communist statement as well. - Oh my gosh. - Or that's a revolt against the Protestant work ethic in America. You work, you work, you work, you work. It's all about work. - And you die. - And that work is your identity. - Wow. Well, this brings us to the moment she totally takes on the mantle. - That's right. - Hicken butt and yes, when she's grabbed the hammer and sickle and says, "I am Buffy." Now level up, right? We're back to her, yeah, reclaiming the mantle. - Yeah, yep, yep. And once she does that, mayhem ensues. - They have ensues. - And what an extended fight scene here. - It was, it was. And I thought that Buffy's stunt doubles hair looked good. - Nice. - I think it was real here. I don't think it was a wig. - That's impressive. - Yeah. - So anyway, and did you notice, again, when she's kind of fighting up on that platform? - Yes. - Did you notice anything in the background? - No, other than other people garbed in sackcloth. - There's a giant angel hanging out of the wall. - Okay, I did not know it was an angel. Oh my gosh, I did not know it was an angel. I was like, is that a crucifix? I didn't quite get, I got like the partial shots of it. It was like stonish, right? - Yes, yes, but it's a big angel. - Yeah, I mean, this whole thing, right? Buffy has sent herself to hell where she sent angel. But now she's reclaiming her identity and she's getting herself the hell out of hell. - Beautiful. And so then did you have another layer for when it was Lily who pushed Ken off the platform? - I hadn't thought of that until you said it earlier in this episode that if we think about Lily as being the standard for Buffy that she's saving herself. Yeah, I didn't go that far, I like it. - I love it, I love it. - Yeah, the one thing I really, really, really hated in this episode was the misuse of the Gandhi reference. - Oh, yes. - I was like, that's total disrespecting of his approach to protest. - But yeah, I totally agree. - Yeah, I hated that, hated it. It has no purpose. - If Gandhi got really, really pissed. Well, guess that's the whole point. But no, he wouldn't do that, even if he was angry. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I hated that. - Kind of gory with his legs pinioned into the floor there. - Yeah. - And had a rough go there. - Yeah. - Now, I have to admit, I was troubled. Why did they have this whole 100 years in one day? And they come back through the goo and no time has passed. - Well, yeah, 'cause it should have been a few years at least. - At least. - If they were down there for an hour, you do the math. (laughing) - Well, I mean, no, it would have been several years. Well, we don't know how long they were down there, but yeah, if they were down there for an hour, then yeah, like four years or something. - Yeah, yeah. - So, and you know, she had, Buffy hasn't even missed a shift at the, I mean, it hasn't even been days, right? It seems like time was just as it was. So if they'd said something like, whenever they go to sleep or whatever, but I was not impressed with, it seemed like the same amount of time inside and out, if they made this big production about in one day, which I also thought that 100 years in one day was also just unrealistic for the volume of workers they would have had to have in there. And why also? Do you remember when Lily and Buffy were kind of in a room and there was like a dead guy right behind, but it didn't look like a dead human. It looked like a dead one of the demons. - Oh, I didn't think it looked human. - I didn't notice that. - It's weird. - Huh, well, I'm not surprised about the number of people, you know, because tens of thousands of people go missing in the United States alone. On a yearly basis. - But on a daily basis in one city? - Well, I mean, if it's tens of thousands across the United States, most people in the cities, right? That's where a lot of the homeless people congregate and people aren't gonna notice and they're not gonna say anything. - Well, that could be the comment as well. But I would think that if this guy's putting up flyers and he's getting referrals from this blood bank, that this would start to look, again, pretty sus. (laughing) - Well, I only think that would happen if someone was looking for somebody. - Well, you do have a point. And then that goes back to the whole runaway train. - Right, right. - These people are invisible and old homeless people showing up wouldn't get much attention. - Right, yeah, yeah. - Okay, okay, I'll buy that. I'll buy the volume, but I cannot abide by the fact they come back and it doesn't seem like any time, because we're talking about how many years should have passed. It wasn't even days that passed. - Yeah, no, I agree with you now and I hadn't caught it before, but maybe you have to pitch your first anvil before it starts. - Maybe, maybe it's work that begins to age you. - Yeah, yeah. - I could have bought that explanation. They should have interjected it. - Yeah. - They needed you consulting, that's all I can say. - Well, I've thought that about mini shows, but. (laughing) - Anyway, to climb back up through the goo, I looked to the effects of the goo. I thought that was kind of cool. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was good, although not so gooey since it didn't cling to anybody. - Right. - But it's goo, clingless glue. - Or yeah, clingless goo. - This way. - Yes. (laughing) - English is hard. - English, English hard, English hard. Yeah, then we see Buffy and Lily. - Yes. - Because her apartment up to Lily gets her job at the diner and Lily says she's gonna be coming in. - So, if Buffy is kind of a stand, I mean, if Lily's kind of a stand in for Buffy, I don't know, do you feel like this is like an alternate reality for Buffy? Or that she's on her feet? You know, she's got herself back on her feet. She's able to leave this behind. - Yeah, I think it's that. - And then Buffy's home. - Yeah. Yeah, I should've felt a heartfelt reunion with Joyce and Buffy, but I did not. It's actually kind of unfortunate. We don't have the reunion with Buffy, with anybody else that I would've cared about that reunion. - Mm-hmm. - This was, yeah, I keep wanting to give Joyce the benefit of the doubt, but she keeps disappointing me. Of course, she is there and the father is not. - Right. - So, I guess I've got to give her credit for that. (laughing) - Yeah, yeah, it's hard though. - I'm a little surprised Joyce hasn't already turned Buffy's room into an Airbnb or something. (laughing) - Alright, exercise room. - Yeah, exactly, exactly. - Yeah. - Well, I have to thank you. You did give me some added depth to this. I really did like the Lily stand in for Buffy. I'm not sure how much I bought into the angel being Ricky, but Ricky had a real short time. - And he was a lot older than Lily, by the end of the episode. (laughing) - So, maybe the parallels continue to emerge. (laughing) - Yeah, could be so. - Alright, I got nothing else. - Me either, I think that's a great place to wrap up. - Alright, next one is Dead Man's party. - Mm. So, the Buffy adventure continues. And then I guess the only thing left to do is say bye. - Thanks for listening everybody. (upbeat music) - Wallowing in the shallows is created and produced by the both of us, edited by Mo. A soundtrack for the Wallowing in the shallows, Buffy the Vampire Slayer season three re-watch, is Apache Rock Instrumental by Soundatellier, available on gemento.com. You can send us feedback at which TV pod at gmail.com. That's W-I-T-S-T-V-P-O-D at gmail.com. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Subscribe. - And subscribe. - And subscribe. - Subscribe. - Hit that subscribe button.
