Welcome to the Growth Hacking Culture Podcast. I'm your host, Ivan Palomino. This podcast is about thought-provoking ideas to scale up and growth hack performing and human-centric work cultures. My guests are experts on mindsets, skills and science behind work cultures. I hope you enjoy this episode. To tell you the truth, there is a mixed bag of news when it comes to sustainability. There is efforts in cooperation that have been done. There is some positive science, which is great. There is increased focus as a significant number of companies have started prioritizing sustainability. Over 98% of standard pools, 500 companies publish sustainability reports. There is a big number of companies claiming net zero commitments, representing 90% of the global GDP that have pledged to reach net zero emissions by 2050. A lot of employees also look at the sustainability reports in order to decide if they can join a company. But from the other side, there is certain challenges and concerns. One is question. Concerns about companies making claims about their sustainability efforts. There is lack of standardization. It's difficult to assess the true sustainability performance. And there is some doubts that certain aspects or activities initiatives are having a measurable impact. Today, I wanted to come a discussion with Michelle Piedsman. He is the creator of vital growth framework for sustainable leadership. He is the founder of Ignir, a company focused on transformative insurance for leaders. Michelle has been working several C-suites, 14500 companies. He has been a strategy advisor for many others. And both members of several organizations in the areas of environmental sustainability of his country. Michelle, it's so nice to have you finally as a guest of the growth hacking culture podcast. Thank you, Michelle. Thank you for having me. It's so great to see you as well. Discussing an important topic. Exactly. But, listen, I'm really interested about how did you what trigger, in fact, the move after being from the side of executive leadership in different companies, is the side. How triggered this move to sustainability, environment protection. What was the trigger? I'm going to tell you a Siberian story. Once upon a while, I used to work in Siberia, and I was based in Novosibirsk for Philip Morrison. And I was actually amazed at what I saw, you know, the vast expanses. I think everything was national geographic. Absolutely gorgeous stuff. And then I go to my local supermarket, and I find myself in front like of the bottled water. And I see a field in a plastic bottle. So the water from the lake here at home, you know, all the way in Siberia, 2,000 or more kilometers away. And I'm thinking, how can it be that water from the lake made it all the way here? It just didn't make any sense. So that was a little bit like the drop to lunch, right? I mean, to stay with the water. So when I retired from from Philip Morris, I took it up on myself. Okay, let's do something about it. But what is interesting is that, one side you have been working with companies that some of them might have certain strategies regarding stability. And some of them may have completely bullshit strategies that they claim that they are doing something. Sorry for a hard work, but you know me already. I have to call it as I feel it. So how did you say, what do you draw the line between this is normal happiness, and this is something that where we need to change. What is your feeling? Well, you're certain yourself in your introduction, as long as there is no standardization, it's very difficult for you to understand what's going on. All the companies, as we pointed out, have some kind of sustainability report that is going on. But however, you know, you look at all of them, and there is a lack of transparency because of the lack of standardization. So you don't really know, it's like they might emphasize minor echo-friendly things. I mean, last year, for example, you know, the new Apple watch came out, and it was zero emission product because, you know, they were planting trees in South America or something along those lines. And then somebody called them out, you know, and third party said, "Hey, are you really sure that it's that zero emission watch?" So there is plenty of claims. And for the common mortal, like we are, it's very difficult to find out really what's going on. And, you know, they're notable examples of Great Washington going on for a while. I mean, the recent example, you know, vague or broad claims without those specifics. I mean, this has been the case of Nestle, you know, our prepared Nestle not far away from us. You know, the products are sustainable, et cetera, and there was no evidence. So it was almost like a marketing ploy. We don't know if they were or not. But if you don't back it up, if the company doesn't back it up, it really might create a problem. I mean, you remember the Volkswagen issue with the diesel cars when they were playing. But yeah, I mean, that was imagine, that was nine years ago already. And, you know, they were kidding on emissions. So with software, there was H&N in '21, which was talking about the conscious collection, you know, and it lacked transparency about the sustainability claims. So there is, there is a lot of confusion in that. And I think even today, I mean, you know, Chevron last year today in the news, ExxonMobil, you know, trying to get those minorities, we share holders out of the way because they're pushing the sustainability agenda. So in reality, unfortunately, we don't really know what's going on. So, as you said, for this, most of us is very difficult to understand the truth from the reality. So is there any way to like, red flags of a company that might be greenwashing, a way to protect or protect the right type of questions to ask in order to understand if a company is greenwashing or not? Well, it's a little bit like in, I think it's made a solo story, you know, showing the money. I mean, show the numbers. I mean, try to, you know, make sure, make sure that you understand the reports. I mean, you cannot take them face value at this point. So, you know, it's almost guilty until proven innocent at this point, because there have been so many scandals and so many, you know, lack of transparency that was going on, that it's not believable, unless there is a clear reporting verified by a trusted third party, then we're okay. So red flags are typically, you know, I make a claim, I don't back it up, or, you know, I talk about, yeah, you know, I talk about a minute thing, and I kind of hide the rights, you know, think of the big oil companies, and all this wonderful review, all the wonderful things were in the oven. We have a venture problem, we haven't figured out yet how to get rid of fossil fuel. And as a result of that, you know, there's always going to be some kind of spin or marketing going on in order to apply the truth. And I have the impression that that's one of the biggest challenge that if you treat sustainability as a marketing exercise, it will never work, because marketing is about beautifying the reality or highlighting positive points. And it's not about telling the point today, when you look at the financial report, where there is no sustainability section, you see numbers, but in the sense that we have put one million for that post, but it doesn't tell you exactly how we were spent for that post. And that's compared for most of us. It is, and it's very difficult to actually go net zero. I mean, you know, I decided to go net zero, so there is a wonderful company here in Switzerland that does carbon capture, right? And I went to their site and I decided, okay, I'm going to buy all the carbon units, and I want to reassure its capture and, you know, put it back in the soil in Iceland somewhere. And it actually turned out that, you know, my pain, I don't remember the amount, but I could buy something like they would remove 15 kilos of carbon. I mean, the average citizen in Switzerland is emitting every year anywhere between 10 to 15 tons. So even, you know, as an individual is super difficult. So in effect, what you need to do is have, how much is the business actually emitting, and how much are these, you know, efforts contributing to reducing and balancing this thing. Now, you know, you started in the introduction as well, you know, 2050, we're going to be net zero. 2050, I probably will be net, you know, but I have a little bit skeptical that it can be good, you know, so there's new technologies need to come up stream on this one, but it would be good if this is how much we're made, this is the effort we're doing, and then you have a very clear picture like you have in a P&L. These are the revenues, these are the cost, this is a profit, and, you know, we still like in this transparency, the numbers, very fine, like the financials of the corporations by accountants, or by the big, whatever the number is left at this point, the big, my title was big six, that was big three accounting firms. Same thing should happen with the industry. So, sorry, it looks that many of the leaders of organizations are taken as an exercise to be trained freely, and, you know, they don't feel accountable about the real resource. I think, that's almost a dangerous and generalization. I mean, you know, we are, we are all humans, and I still believe in humans. And, and, and, you know, humans have created these designs, and eventually the humans are going to solve it or not, we managed to see it, but they are good leaders in the sense that you are, you know, not everybody is being cynical and saying, oh, I've got to do something about it, and they do nothing. They are good leaders, and I'm encountering a lot of leaders who are in there where, you know, there is a genuine concern. It's not only about profitability, it's about my company, and it's about the community. They're, they're very something to be done for sustainability, and even they are not even talking about sustainability anymore, they are talking about rich and irating, you know, so also revisiting the whole business plan. So that is the future, and it's coming full stream, not only multinationals, of course, they talk about it, but in small business as well. So, you know, hold your forces, there is hope. You're right, you're right. I have a tendency to overgeneralize, but there is still, let's say, a substantial portion of leaders who might, why not, consider that greed benefits for shareholders are more important than what is going to happen to our bloody planet. And by bloody planet, they have to include employees because sustainability is not just about protecting the planet, it's protecting the people that you are managing. Is there a way that consumers, employees, and even investors can hold corporations accountable? Is there a way to give them some slaps in the face so that they act on that? Listen, they have been a lot of consumer activism. I mean, the case of Nesclay is, is, I guess, important, you know, what are you guys talking about? So there are, you know, we don't buy this stuff anymore. It's also that they are investors, they are doing something about it. That's the example of ExxonMobil right now, where minority shareholders are demanding a better sustainability, policy sustainability measures. So all of this is happening. My convention, though, is the employees have a huge role to play. Why is that? I am a co-founder of the Climate Coaching Alliance chapter in Switzerland, so it's called CCA. And we come back for the survey. And what we found out is that hold yourself two thirds of the people that answer the survey said, "My company doesn't do enough," and that makes me uncomfortable. So this is where, you know, I thought, "Hey, maybe we can help these people, and this is why Nesclay is doing what we're doing." But if you think about it, this gap between the personal values about sustainability, about the planet, versus I work for a company that put profits before the environment, that is something that can definitely be leveraged that would be heard by the, by the members. And I guess that affects a big range of employees because Nesclay are very sensitive to the topic. And then we have all these guys that at the age of 40, like, starts asking them some questions. Why am I doing what I'm doing? It's enough to have a good package to put salary in this company if we don't give a damn about the environment or about it. So we were discussing about your work. And you mentioned that there is a substantial number of people who cares about sustainability. But I'm interested to know what are the key challenges that they mentioned to you. We want to promote that, but it is difficult. What are they mentioning obstacles to achieve in true sustainability? Well, there isn't the issue of quite a new report. You need to show profits. There is also, the rules are not that clear. It's like every country has its own rules in terms of the regulatory framework and still at all. And there is something that is worth talking about. The concept, like we have in Switzerland, you bring your garbage to the dish at three or to the wherever you throw it away. You have to pay for your waste, right? And the same concept with carbon tax. And if there was a global carbon tax, I mean, we would be making tremendous progress. In the sense, you know, we could do too big. And it gets more and more expensive to do it for me. Creativity is going to come in a stack. Now, that is not happening right then. So there is the profits in the short term, but this is also the fact that there isn't like a huge incentive to change other than perhaps, you know, consumers talking about it or the, you know, the other case calling you out. Now, I'm really looking at this climate advocate. And what I'm actually hearing is very interesting. There is a little bit of resistance to people that throw soup on the Mona Lisa, you know, it's like a lot of people say, hey, it's not for me. It's a little bit too extreme, you know. So, so there is, there is, there is this resistance going on. And it's almost like, don't tell me what to do. So that is something that that I have identified. However, you know, as I was saying before, when you have two thirds of the employees that say, hmm, we're not doing enough, that is really the field. I am a deep believer that the real impact for this corporation is going to come from the inside. A great leader, the employees, you know, it's like we need to do something about it. Let's go. But then the impression that leaders are really listening to the employees, because it might be that at the top of the food chain, everybody's looking forward for the good profits. And employees are claiming nobody's listening today. Because, by the way, if any good or vague employee survey aspect of sustainability, it's never really asked. Have you noticed that, Michel? I have noticed that with my former employers. Not the last. It's something that they should build in, because it's part of the client, you know, it's like, if you go, if you go back home, you can tell, you can tell your friends and family is like, hey, well, only I am actually doing what is right, you know, with my garbage, with the electricity consumption, with my car, and so forth. But I actually word for an employer that cares about it and is doing the ABC. So all of this is a virtual cycle. And so, yeah, I noticed that it's not being paid enough attention. I have hope that it will in the future. I was recently at IMD. And, you know, in all the leadership courses, there is mention of that. So there is a whole new breed of leaders that comes in, and is exposed to this. And the risk is stigmatized by the way is like, what do you think about sustainability? Go to the life. This is where I am. Where do you think your employer is sitting with the shift to the right? I think that I'm doing enough. So there is, there is the consciousness that is coming around the companies, perhaps not fast enough, but at least it's happening. Let's talk because we are talking about sustainability without having like a good frame of reference so that people do not think that when Michelle is talking about sustainability, he's talking about saving the planet. There is more to that. Do you have your own definition about sustainability? Well, listen, I grew up in South America. I worked in Eastern Europe, and I saw plenty of other types of sustainability, right? I mean, yes, there is definitely the planet. But, you know, if you read the UN development goals, you know, sustainability, as they call it, whether it is education, there is eradication of poverty, there is, you know, medicine for all, et cetera. I mean, you start looking at that, it's like, maybe there is far more than we can do other than than we are doing today, and not only for the planet. Incidentally, the planet will be fine. It will continue to exist. We might have a problem. Indeed. Can we do sustainability when, as imagine, the typical deep sweet guy, 50 plus, around 50 plus, that he has only devoted his life for the growth of the company. And suddenly, some younger people comes and tells them, he says, but this guy has an unlearned old ways. Is there a way to help a leader who is into the area, and I don't care, it's not my problem. I will not be there. In fact, when everything goes to him, is there a way to pour him into a change that he doesn't even care, or he's not aware of? It's difficult to actually find somebody, at least in our part of the world that doesn't care. So maybe you are describing leaders that I'm not waiting, because why is that? Because they think about the children and grandchildren. And we were a part of the generation of, apparently, I'm at the limit of the baby guru. And we were doing stuff without actually noticing that we were ruining everything. And I have kids. Eventually, they might have kids. And I have to think about that. So even I, you're defining old parts, a part of that crowd. And if I can change it, I have to believe that other people can change as well. But the issue is, it's not convincing. It's actually finding the way to do something about it. I think Nia, we actually came up with something that helps leaders, because you have your personal role. So you want to improve your career, you want to shape your legacy, and so on. Then you have, that's your individual role. Then you have your community goal, which is all about your company. It's like, again, legacy in terms of if you are the CEO, or how do you want the employees to fill within the company. There is more. What are the stakeholders? What are we doing to our neighborhood and et cetera? So all of that also becomes, maybe we should change it. And then there is the planetary concerns. I mean, thinking, how am I doing the business? Is there another way of doing my supply chain? Is there another way of doing my retail in order to contribute to that? And therefore, we actually, this three individual, the community and the planet, we put it together and say, okay, this is our goal. And the core goal then becomes, you know, part of the strategy of the company once it gets implemented. But it all starts at the top. If the top guy from top lady is not convinced, you know, it's not going to work. So in fact, in my imaginary example of somebody who doesn't care, it's not really that he doesn't care. It's just that he was not looking at the right place. But if you look at the right place and you have the right figure like thinking about my kids, thinking about people that I really attach, because at the end, we always love something in the earth. It's going to be possible that we don't like anything. So if we put the right perspective, this person will start passionate with that. You understood, yeah, this is my point. And I think it's just something that you also see behavioral science perspective. Michelle, I don't want to start cracking jokes about your past in McKinsey, because I've already done that. Is there a way to have some effective strategies for corporations to implement meaningful, sustainable sustainability measures? Thinking like an engineer, thinking how should they do it? Well, well, the answer is yes, the risk. And then I'm going to, I'm going to sound like a lawyer. It depends on your business, right? But there is. I mean, you can always, it's old strategy. It's just that you put a different angle to it. It's like shaping a strategy to make money. If you know you're shaping a strategy to regenerate the environment, or at least to sustain, you know, to go net zero. And that can be engineered. You know, I'm an engineer and I know, I, you know, yes, I mean, there is a discipline in there. And it's the McKinsey way. I mean, you look at the hard facts and figure out how to do it. Yes, it's possible. Okay, so in the same ways that I guess that there is, companies pay to change processes, to change to reduce waste, to be more lean and so on. That same methodology can be applied to sustainability. It's not something else. There is no other way to improve things. No, that's correct. I mean, we were talking before about the KPIs. The numbers are defined by a third party. You can have numbers for everything that we're talking about. And therefore, it becomes fact based. You can track it. You can, you know, you see the deviations and then you adjust, you know, like a normal business. It's just a different, instead of measuring money and managing money, you're managing the impact of the environment. It's totally cool. Well, the thing that stays in the back of my head, the steel is, is that story? Because I know that when you say third parties, there is third party, third party. There is third party that you pay a couple of thousands and you get that good rating. And it happens in financial form. And it happens even in the wall of culture. You become somebody, a nameless organization. If you do an audit and you will be rated best. This is, this is what I was, I mean, there are reputable companies that do that. But it's part of the regulatory framework that I was talking about. You know, when you are a public company, there are rules that you need to abide for, to, sorry, you know, there is the SEC, the United States. I mean, they are, you know, you have to report the numbers in a certain way. When it's gap, you need to talk about an auditor that looks at those numbers, less those numbers, and then people can trust the numbers. The same thing is to happen on the other side of the, of the business, which is this whole sustainability thing that we're talking about. So, listen, there is improvement, there is code. And, and, and in the sense that when I meet a leader that meets it, I mean, he or she will look for the right KPI system that gives them the real numbers. What is the number that they can try? Now, you said, it will claim, they will have a goal, they will claim a number. But how can we make public corporations, even governments accountable for whatever they claim, all these commitments that happen in a, in an interview, they say, we are going to achieve this, and then this target is a rolling forecast that extends for 20 years more, or then there is a lobbyists who came and the number disappeared, the project disappeared. How can society, shall we ban? Can make them commit and rejoin them. Listen, I mean, it's more and more or less, we have all the information available. I mean, you know, it's like with the internet, with people we can talk to, I mean, if you have the curiosity of actually finding out what is really going on, we can't. And therefore, you know, we are blessed that there are many people that are monitoring what is going on. It's not, it's not like a mass movement yet, but there are some countries where there is like tremendous consciousness about it. And people in the government are aware of it, people that have businesses are aware of it. And then we're just like, let's do something about it. I mean, the country I have in mind surprisingly is France. And they are doing wonderful things, and they are private initiatives, they are government initiatives, the area is reporting, that is done centrally. I mean, think of the right, actually, much better than anybody else. So, once again, there is hope. Putting, putting pressure is just a start. You then need to have the mechanisms and the facilities, what should we make up? Funny enough, from one side, it hurts when you mentioned that France is doing well. We just leave it by the border. And I was astonished, and I spent some time outside of Switzerland for a couple of years. And I thought that was aggressive in that area. And it seems that it's not, it seems that it was a book that I had that Switzerland was leaving. There is still a long way to go. There is still a long way to go. We've got a referendum now on the night of June of domestic electricity. So, I mean, it's on the agenda. Are we moving fast enough? Not really. We can move faster. There's been a debate about, you know, this nuclear renewable energy or not. I mean, Switzerland decided that it wasn't, which is questionable as a decision. Germany did the same thing. French, thank you very much. They gave to their nuclear power plants, and now they're selling electricity to us. So, in a way, you know, what are we talking about? And this is, there needs to be some, at least continental coordination or global coordination, similar to the carbon tax I was talking about before. But you're right, Switzerland can go just some way to progress. Yes. And do you have like any personal hero or companies that have been successful in their inability effort? People that you admire or companies have. Listen, I kind of knew that you were going to ask this question, and I thought very hard into what the answer would be. And I'm going to be clever in this one. Do you know who the hero is? It's the person in the street. It's the person that say, hey, you know, this is not right. And you have plenty of examples of that. And it's moving because of these people, the consumers, the investors, the employees. Those are the real heroes, because those are the ones that once organized under a movement, it's going to work out. Yes, if you want to name a bunch of companies, Patagonia, for example, is doing wonderful. But it really is about the mind that across industry, the individual that can do something about it. And the more we launch them to become aware, the bigger the movement is going to become. There is a statistic that if 15% of the population wants to do something about it, it's kind of tough. But that's in Switzerland, you mean? That's actually, you know, it's enough to move to get things moving. Don't ask me what the percentage is today, but it's not 15%. I love this point that you have made, because sometimes it is very difficult for the normal citizen to go and speak up about something that they don't like. Indeed, it's the relation of this normal citizen claiming that this is not right, that produces changes. I love that mission. I will note it, because I was thinking that you had your library of organizations, but a little bit tricky to pick somebody or a person or an organization that has been always doing the right thing without compromises. It's very difficult. Indeed, it's super difficult. It's much easier to say, "Okay, who is the hero of business that you have?" You know, like in the past, always. But here, this is really about, I mean, what we're talking about is humanity and its future. So it really depends on us. You know, I could say Greta. Yeah, she was great for awareness, but now she also, other than Trump, she pissed off a lot of people on the way, because of the way she was doing it. Coodles are the awareness, you know, on style. I'm not sure. Indeed. What advice would you give to individuals interested in promoting sustainability within their own companies? Other than giving me a call? Exactly. They give you a call. I mean, what would you tell them if they give you the call? Well, you know, it's work. It's work to be done in terms of actually, you know, integrating the whole equation into one strategy, as we were talking before. But the most important thing, it starts, it starts from, you know, what is my aspiration? Is it only individual? Is it company? Is it also, does it also evolve the plan? Once you have reached the, wait a second, I want to have like a real core goal that encompasses the three dimensions, then, you know, it's almost 80% of the work done, because then it's hard work, hard facts, adjustments, and etc. So what do I tell them? I will tell them, thank you. Let's go. Let's do it. Michelle, I almost had the feeling that while you were describing these three, three dimensions, you were talking about your, your vital growth framework. Maybe, can you tell me a little bit more, because I understand the principles, but I don't know the details. Can you tell me about what can people do if audiences, they use the vital growth framework that you have developed for sustainable leadership, what can they do about it? Well, I mean, as you pointed out, I worked at McKinsey, so it's, you know, all that experience comes into coming up with this vital growth framework. You have an admission, you do an assessment, and it can be an assessment in terms of leadership. It could be an assessment in terms of working with staff, with the sustainability and etc. And then you see the gap. Once you understand the gap, guess what? You figure out how do I close this gap? And then you start implementing, you measure the implementation, and you know, it becomes, it becomes like a virtuous cycle. So it's, in a way, you know, I don't want to minimize the simplicity of it, but it, you know, or undermine the whole framework because of its simplicity. But in effect, it's common sense. I want to go there. Where am I now? How do I close the gap? Am I closing the gap? I'm not closing the gap. Okay, what do I need to do more, etc, etc, than you are in this feature saga? I mentioned the way you put it, it looks simple. But my understanding is that it goes way beyond just explaining. We are talking about something that usually, if we take a frame of comparison, talking about having objectives here, we are talking about iterations, right? Iterations, but each, each round, in fact, you are improving, but accelerating the delta. Do I get positive? Do we change? Do we people? Like this is, it's not anymore about discussing an aspiration. God, I will never reach there. No, I mean, you need to, you're right. You need to take steps. It's continuous improvement. It comes from this velocity. You cannot, today, I'm like this, tomorrow, I'm going to be like this by now. No, it's hard work. It takes time. It takes learning. It takes iterations. It takes continuous improvement. When it wasn't bloody manufacturing in the 70s and 80s, and everybody in America was looking at the Japanese, what the hell are they doing at Toyota? And we were all looking at them all. I was an industrial engineer at the time. It's like, wow, this is really clever. And you know, with the benefit of hindsight, it's like, hey, you know, we're getting there slowly, but every time that we get closer, we improve. And then once you improve, you can reach, you can aspire to more. Now, I am excluding from this tremendous innovation that will come and help us, right? That is the real of our idea and actually government funding, another funding, which with people that are going to figure out how to do carbon capture in the future, in an economical way, as opposed to 700 euros per kilo. You know, it should be at around 14, and that we are talking. So there is still work to be done. But in things that we can control, you need to start slow, you need to start short, and you need to make sure that you are patient and reinforce this thing, communicating about it, and understand that you're engaging your employees, you're engaging your stakeholders, and the wheel starts moving in the right direction. And again, you say that in people, but just if I think about my personal story and I imagine how difficult it is to take a concept and put a number on it, to update that. We cannot imagine, for instance, how happy do I want to be? It's difficult to quantify that. But once you have a solid methodology, like, let's talk about the vital growth framework, you have hard numbers to do that that people, that can be revised, but something that is quantified because we humans, we need a number in order to go and chase it. This number shouldn't be like out there, something that will happen in 10 years, but it should be just like, what can I achieve in six months and so on. And that's what I like about your framework is that this scientific helps it go with human psychology, iterations, it's not about big. I want to change the planet, it's about I want to change first myself, and then I said, call of influence without a solution. Yeah, that's exactly it. And you know, if you think about what do I want to achieve in a certain period of time and quantifying it, I would love to have this thing. And then you start measuring the deviation. What are we talking about? We're talking about business planning. And we're talking about, you know, the people that control it and the business reviews and so forth. So there's nothing, there's nothing fantastically different from what we were doing before, we're just looking at the different sets of KPS. We have that, Michelle, and we are reaching the end of this discussion, but I wanted to understand so if people are interested about this holistic change either in terms of as a leader or as a citizen, transform them and also transform them. How can they reach you out? What is the best way? Well, I mean, watch this podcast and I'm sure you're going to put up the bottom of it. Visit, you may have got LTV, right? Visit, click on here to find out. But listen, I'm on LinkedIn. And I'm very accessible, you know, I'm very sure that I have people who can send me messages. And that my philosophy is very simple. Give me a call. If I can answer, I will answer. If I cannot, I'll go back. Wonderful, sorry. Now, there is another thing that's really to know about it, man, which is, you know, I'm right now, I am the founder. We came up with a framework, I discussed with a lot of people and et cetera. But there is like a mass of former sea extos consultants, coaches that are called upon each project, and they bring their, you know, their Savoir Fair. And therefore, it becomes a it's not only one guy, it's really credible. When you, you know, you are able to different people, you have different experiences and they have different experiences, not only with cultures, but also with business. So that is also the strength that we have. We have a tremendous network that can be leveraged for, for, for your project. I, I love this cause that I am a truly a true believer of this network, especially if they have something, something common either the purpose, I don't know if a product in there is just to change leaders or to change impact the planet or maybe all together. And with the other, if you change, you want to give back to the world. But if they have something in common, that's something that is magnificent, especially if you have established this framework in order that also them, they can use it in order to explore in a better way their how to move forward with these leaders that are struggling at different steps of the life with things that they want. And they cannot achieve because they are limited on their beliefs of what is possible to do in this, in this one. That's amazing, Michelle, Michelle, I will put the links that you have mentioned in their LTD dot LTD and the one for your LinkedIn profile. And I will, if I put your telephone number, maybe it's too much, but I will, I will definitely in your LinkedIn page, you have your telephone number. So I don't want that people are calling you in the middle of the night or whatever. Thank you for that. Thank you, Michelle. It was lovely to have you with us today in this episode regarding accessibility, the truth and not real truth about greenwashing. Thank you, Michelle. Thank you, everyone, for having me.
